Searching \ for 'Fast Prototyping' in subject line. ()
Make payments with PayPal - it's fast, free and secure! Help us get a faster server
FAQ page: www.piclist.com/techref/index.htm?key=fast+prototyping
Search entire site for: 'Fast Prototyping'.

Truncated match.
PICList Thread
'Fast Prototyping'
1998\11\20@124543 by Jeff Jolie

flavicon
face
I find I spend a lot of time building small  prototype boards containing a
PIC and a handful of other components.  I'm getting real tired of building
wire wrap boards.  Does anyone have experience using any of the PCB board
houses that boast of their fast turn around & low cost for prototypes?  Do
you find it more cost effective than building prototype boards by hand? I
know that it makes sense if you know the board is going to PCB anyway.  But
many times the prototype board is all that is needed. I  do my own PCB
design so providing the Gerber files, etc. is not a problem. Thanks.

Jeff Jolie

1998\11\20@133123 by Jason Wolfson

flavicon
face
Jeff,
Wire wrap boards are not cost effective, especially when your going
to have to provide a tested production ready PCB.
I highly recommend Advanced Circuits in Denver CO.
I do all my quoting and ordering and order status over the web with
them. Quick turn 2-3 days, perfect boards and not to expensive,
goto http://www.advancedcircuits.com/

Jason

> {Original Message removed}

1998\11\20@133129 by Opdahl, Patrick G

picon face
       I've just received double-sided boards from expressPCB (
http:\\http://www.expressPCB.com) and am very happy... throughput was ~1 week.  I
received 20 boards for ~$160.  There is a $85 setup charge per order, and
then the cost per board.  they have their own schematic software that is the
easiest I've used and its free!  I'll use them again, and I'm not associated
with them in any way.

       regards
       Pat


{Quote hidden}

1998\11\20@154732 by myke predko

flavicon
face
Hi Jeff,

>I find I spend a lot of time building small  prototype boards containing a
>PIC and a handful of other components.  I'm getting real tired of building
>wire wrap boards.  Does anyone have experience using any of the PCB board
>houses that boast of their fast turn around & low cost for prototypes?

I've used AP Circuits a lot and I've always been happy with what they've
sent me.

Through work, I've been talking to a couple of the local houses that we
(Celestica) use and they indicated that they would be happy to do small
quick-turn prototypes for me with Routing and Solder Mask.  Which AP
Circuits doesn't do for "Proto1") at a price and delivery that was
competitive with AP Circuits without AP Circuit's FedEx shipping costs.

The only issue was that I had to provide gerbers (which I have to do with AP
Circuits anyway).

So, you might want to call up some of your local houses and see what they
can do for you.

>Do
>you find it more cost effective than building prototype boards by hand? I
>know that it makes sense if you know the board is going to PCB anyway.  But
>many times the prototype board is all that is needed. I  do my own PCB
>design so providing the Gerber files, etc. is not a problem. Thanks.

When I did the projects for "Programming and Customizing the 8051", I
created a "panel" with five card images on it (four are used for the book
projects).  The final size was six inches by eight.  Cost of two panels was
$115 Canadian (with Shipping to Toronto) from AP-Circuits.  This works out
to $11.50 per board which is very reasonable.

If at all possible, make up a few projects and put them on the same board -
at that point it will become very cost effective to have a quick-turn shop
build it for you.

One other trick is to make up your own prototype boards with what you think
you're going to need and then do not route critical traces and provide a
wire-wrapping area.  Non-critical traces are busses, display drivers,
clocking circuits (well, at least for PICMicros) and device "cores", RS-232
and parallel port interfaces and so on.  With some planning, you can create
a card that is both easy to design and debug for the circuit.

I remember this from Steve Ciarcia's projects in "Byte" in the late
1970s/early 1980s.  This way you can create projects that are very fast and
easily reworkable and you have cards that can potentially be used for other
projects.

If you order a board with multiple card images, make sure you don't leave
any open space.  In any case, you are paying for that empty space (which
costs just as much as an actual board design) and you can throw on some
quick and dirty designs like a PIC, 8051 or AVR prototyping board, a
parallel port interface prototyping card, an RS-232 to TTL/CMOS Translator
or a 9 Volt Battery to +5V regulator card that you may or may not use later.
These are all cards I've got cut out and lying around my workshop; if you
need them, they're really useful (and cost you basically nothing).

Good luck,

myke

John Douglas and Mark Olshaker explore the minds of some of the most
dangerous criminals of our time; "Obsession" is this week's book at:

http://www.myke.com/Book_Room/book1a.htm

Also look at:

http://www.myke.com/My_Books/homcu.htm

for information on "Handbook of Microcontrollers" which has been named the
Main Selection for November 1998 for the Electronics Book Club!

1998\11\21@122440 by Arnold Grubbs

flavicon
face
Jeff Jolie wrote:
>
> I find I spend a lot of time building small  prototype boards containing a
> PIC and a handful of other components.  I'm getting real tired of building
> wire wrap boards.
Snip~
> many times the prototype board is all that is needed. I  do my own PCB
> design so providing the Gerber files, etc. is not a problem. Thanks.
>
> Jeff Jolie

Hi Jeff,
you might be interested in making your own PC boards.  One of my
friends introduced me to a process that will let you make your own with
out
the dark room and photographic equipment.  You also don't need photo
sensitized
board materials.

All you have to do is print out the circuit on a LASER printer using the
special transfer paper.  Iron the paper onto the board, then etch it.
This paper has come a long way from when it was first introduced and is
capable of making some nice low volume boards.  You can design a board
and have it ready in about an hour.. If you discover flaws in the
layout,
you can get it corrected right away, and not have to wait for a PCB
house to
return your board..

Try this URL for the paper that my friend suggested that I try...

http://www.elexp.com/pro_npb5.htm

Hope that helps.

Arnie G

1998\11\21@152517 by Les

flavicon
picon face
Hi jeff
           I have tried the thermal contact PCB transfer method, I used a
product called Press'n'Peel and found it very inneffective it's ok if you
have large track sizes but if you want detail it is not very good.It tends
to smudge with the heat of the Iron. I wouldn't recomend it, keep using the
photographic method it is much more accurate and the results are much more
reliable believe me I have wasted more time trying to get a board right with
press'n'peel than it would have taken to do a photo method, and it's not
cheap stuff.

                       Regards
                                       Les

1998\11\21@180302 by Henry Carl Ott

picon face
At 08:22 PM 11/21/98, you wrote:
>Hi jeff
>            I have tried the thermal contact PCB transfer method, I used a
>product called Press'n'Peel and found it very inneffective it's ok if you
>have large track sizes but if you want detail it is not very good.It tends
>to smudge with the heat of the Iron. I wouldn't recomend it, keep using the
>photographic method it is much more accurate and the results are much more
>reliable believe me I have wasted more time trying to get a board right with
>press'n'peel than it would have taken to do a photo method, and it's not
>cheap stuff.
>
>                        Regards
>                                        Les

Oh, I don't know.
 I've been using the press'n'peel thermal transfer paper for years and I
get great results.
I regularly do SMT designs, even fine pitch. I use the white water based
product, not the blue dry stuff.

I guess there are a couple of tricks. But the only one that matters is to
NOT use a clothes iron There is no way to get even heat and pressure with a
hand iron. You must use a laminator. I use a cheap badge laminator that I
picked up at a ham-fest for 10 bucks.


 As for price, here is an interesting bit of information....

 As of this moment I'm etching a board made with epson  photo print paper.
This is the stuff they sell for photo quality output from inkjet printers.
I ran it through my laser printer, laminated it to the copper clad, and
then soaked it in hot water for 5 minutes. So far it looks good. It just
appears that it has to soak longer then the press'n'peel stuff.      Makes
sense, it is of thicker stock.

Stuff costs 50 cents a sheet in 20 packs ($9.99 at staples).

  I just pulled the board from the etchant tank and it looks friggin perfect.

The press'n'peel and dyna-art people are not going to be happy if this
becomes common knowledge.


later........

carl

--------------------------------------------------------
Henry Carl Ott   N2RVQ    spam_OUTcarlottTakeThisOuTspaminterport.net
http://www.interport.net/~carlott/
--------------------------------------------------------
BOIL that dust speck! BOIL that dust speck!

1998\11\21@193311 by Les

flavicon
picon face
Hi carl
           What is the white water based press'n'peel i've only seen and
used the blue stuff with dissasterous results. The laminator makes perfect
sense, wonder why I never thought of that? (you live and learn).

                               Regards
                                           Les

1998\11\21@193935 by NCS Products

flavicon
face
>  I've been using the press'n'peel thermal transfer paper for years and I
>get great results.
> I regularly do SMT designs, even fine pitch. I use the white water based
>product, not the blue dry stuff.
>
> I guess there are a couple of tricks. But the only one that matters is to
>NOT use a clothes iron There is no way to get even heat and pressure with a
>hand iron. You must use a laminator. I use a cheap badge laminator that I
>picked up at a ham-fest for 10 bucks.

I use a clothes iron.  And the blue stuff.  And only occasionally screw one
up. :-)

>  As of this moment I'm etching a board made with epson  photo print paper.

I will try that.  The price is right!

1998\11\21@204659 by Henry Carl Ott

picon face
At 12:31 AM 11/22/98, you wrote:
>Hi carl
>            What is the white water based press'n'peel i've only seen and
>used the blue stuff with dissasterous results. The laminator makes perfect
>sense, wonder why I never thought of that? (you live and learn).
>
>                                Regards
>                                            Les

      Les,
 There are two different types of toner transfer paper sold. Techniks
makes PnP blue which is the dry transfer material that you have experience
with. They also make a PnP wet (white)  transfer material. This is
basically plain paper coated with a water soluble coating (probably
gelatin). You use both materials pretty much the same way except at the
last step of the toner transfer process,   The blue/dry stuff you just peel
off when it cools . The white/wet stuff you soak in warm water for a few
minutes. The paper soaks up the water and the gelatin dissolves leaving the
re-melted plastic toner stuck to the copper clad.
 The wet system seems to work better because all of the toner sticks to
the copper and there is no release problem.

 I've been using this stuff for 5 years and have made hundreds of boards
with it. I've done everything from full SMD designs to a large stereo tube
based pre-amp. The only thing I stay away from is two layer boards. These I
send out. Supposedly there are techniques to make double sided boards at
home, the it all seems like more trouble then it's worth. But for single
sided prototypes and small production runs this has been a very cost
effective solution for me.


 BTW The two major suppliers for toner transfer supplies are listed below.
I've used material from both, and they seem work about the same.

Techniks (908) 788-8249  (web site seems to be down)
and
DynaArt  http://www.dynaart.com  (only sells the wet paper)

Note that DynaArt also sells laminators and etching tanks. It's worth
getting their catalog.

Hope this was helpful....



carl

--------------------------------------------------------
Henry Carl Ott   N2RVQ    .....carlottKILLspamspam@spam@interport.net
http://www.interport.net/~carlott/
--------------------------------------------------------
BOIL that dust speck! BOIL that dust speck!

1998\11\21@212231 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
>I have tried the thermal contact PCB transfer method, I used a
   >product called Press'n'Peel and found it very inneffective

Since you're using the toner as resist, your results are going to be
dependent on the toner as well as the paper.  There's quite a variety
of materials used in toners from different manufacturers, so I'd expect
success to be pretty dependent on printer/copier manufacturer and the
type of toner that they happen to use.  (Sorry, I have no idea which
ones work better or worse than others.)

For the frugal, I've done some experiments using the (silicone coated,
non-stick) backing paper from laser labels.  This shows some promise, but I
haven't tried a full board, nor have I tried the "official" PnP type papers
as a comparison.  I don't think label stock is much cheaper than PnP style
papers, either, unless you're already throwing it away based on lable usage.
It's certainly much easier to find!

BillW

1998\11\21@213926 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
>  As of this moment I'm etching a board made with epson  photo print paper.

Now that's an interesting idea.  I ran some actual photographic paper
through an ink-jet-like printer, since I had some sitting about, and it's
not much more expensive than the "photo finish printing paper", even if it's
new.  EXPIRED photographic paper can be had really cheap.  I'm not sure I'd
run real photo paper through a laser printer, the (resin or geletine?)
surface MIGHT be melt below the fuser temperature of a printer.  Photo
emulsions are designed to withstand some wetness during processing, but
they will soften up eventually.

BillW

1998\11\22@014039 by Hanafi Tanudjaja

flavicon
face
>Hi jeff
>            I have tried the thermal contact PCB transfer method, I used a
>product called Press'n'Peel and found it very inneffective it's ok if you
>have large track sizes but if you want detail it is not very good.It tends
>to smudge with the heat of the Iron. I wouldn't recomend it, keep using the
>photographic method it is much more accurate and the results are much more
>reliable believe me I have wasted more time trying to get a board right
with
>press'n'peel than it would have taken to do a photo method, and it's not
>cheap stuff.
>
>                        Regards
>                                        Les
Yes I have had waste days also without success ,for thin track.

Regard
Hanafi Tan

1998\11\22@144226 by Jeff Jolie

flavicon
face
Hi Carl,
I was able to get on Techniks http://www.techniks.com web site. I noticed they
recommend the blue PnP for high quality and wet PnP for hobby quality.  Have
you seen quality differences between the 2?  It sounds like you prefer the
wet over the blue.  Do you have any experience using a photocopier rather
than a laser printer?  Can you get good results from a photocopied image? I
need to spend $275 to get my laser printer back on line but can easily do an
inkjet print and photocopy it. thanks...

Jeff Jolie
jeffspamKILLspamneame.com

{Original Message removed}

1998\11\22@183332 by Mark A Moss

picon face
Here's a method I have used to make single PC boards for projects.  I use
a shareware layout program, Ivex's Winboard Demo, to do the layout.  I
print a view of the copper side of the board and tape it down to the
board stock.  I then use that as a drill template.  After the holes are
drilled, I draw in the pattern, using a "sharpie" permanent black marker
for the resist.  Then I etch.  I first thought I would have trouble
because of the etchatent "eating" the copper at the sides of the drilled
holes.  This would work OK for double sided boards too, as long as you
had enough clearance to solder the lead on both sides of the boars.  I
suppose this method would get a bit difficult for fine pitch SMD devices,
though.


Mark Moss
Amateur Radio Operator, Technician, and General Tinkerer

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

1998\11\22@203721 by Tony Nixon

flavicon
picon face
Mark A Moss wrote:
>
> Here's a method I have used to make single PC boards for projects.

A good trick I found also is to put the track side of the PCB facing
down in the etchant using insulated Bell Wire standoffs. That lets
gravity 'pull' the disolved copper off the laminate. It eliminates the
need for bubble etchers and the like and there is no chance of smearing
the artwork. The board etches very fast and because the etchant stays
clean, it lasts longer. I've had mine for years.

There is a simple PCB making method on my web site.

http://www.picnpoke.com/projects/pcb.html


--
Best regards

Tony

Multimedia 16F84 Beginners PIC Tools.

http://www.picnpoke.com
Email .....picnpokeKILLspamspam.....cdi.com.au

1998\11\22@215139 by Mark Willis

flavicon
face
One cheat for when you do have a need for maximum copper around a
given hole, is to first under-size drill the hole, then etch it, then
finally drill it out to the correct size.  Guarantees that you'll have
copper right to the edge of the hole.  (Usually not a problem.)

 Mark, EraseMEmwillisspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTnwlink.com

Mark A Moss wrote:
{Quote hidden}

1998\11\23@143005 by WF AUTOMACAO

flavicon
face
Hanafi Tanudjaja wrote:
>
> >Hi jeff
> >            I have tried the thermal contact PCB transfer method, I used a
> >product called Press'n'Peel and found it very inneffective it's ok if you
> >have large track sizes but if you want detail it is not very good.It tends
> >to smudge with the heat of the Iron. I wouldn't recomend it, keep using the
> >photographic method it is much more accurate and the results are much more
> >reliable believe me I have wasted more time trying to get a board right
> with
> >press'n'peel than it would have taken to do a photo method, and it's not
> >cheap stuff.
> >
> >                        Regards
> >                                        Les
> Yes I have had waste days also without success ,for thin track.
>
> Regard
> Hanafi Tan

I'm too! I agree!

Miguel

1998\11\23@164232 by Henry Carl Ott

picon face
At 02:40 PM 11/22/98, you wrote:
>Hi Carl,
>I was able to get on Techniks http://www.techniks.com web site. I noticed they
>recommend the blue PnP for high quality and wet PnP for hobby quality.  Have
>you seen quality differences between the 2?  It sounds like you prefer the
>wet over the blue.  Do you have any experience using a photocopier rather
>than a laser printer?  Can you get good results from a photocopied image? I
>need to spend $275 to get my laser printer back on line but can easily do an
>inkjet print and photocopy it. thanks...
>

  Hmmm,
That's interesting. My experience was that I was able to get better
results with the wet then the dry. Admittedly I've been using the wet
exclusively lately. They may have changed the formulation on the blue/dry
material. I've still got about forty sheets of the blue on the shelf from
when that was all that I used. I switched over to the wet for some fine
detail smd projects and it just seemed better/more predictable.
At least Techniks prices are better then DynaArt.

 As for using a copier. Sorry I've never tried to use a copier with the
transfer paper. It should work the same as with a laser printer. Variation
in toner might be a problem. Do some tests. It probably varies from one
type of copier to another.

 The one constant in these whole process is that there is variation.
Nobody seems to use the same combination of printer, paper, copper clad,
transfer heat source, or etchant system. The trick is to experiment with
what you have, develop a technique that works for you and stick with it.

 And just to keep this thread remotely on topic it should be noted that
the Techniks web sit has some PIC related links on it.

later....

carl

--------------------------------------------------------
Henry Carl Ott   N2RVQ    carlottspamspam_OUTinterport.net
http://www.interport.net/~carlott/
--------------------------------------------------------
BOIL that dust speck! BOIL that dust speck!

1998\11\23@180810 by Eduardo R.

flavicon
face
Ok, ok guys this proccess got my attention.
Since I would like to test this so popular 'Transfer Paper', I browsed
suppliers on line (DynaArt,DigiKey and technik) but they don't have minimun
quantities sale or samples for experimenting , it seems to me 20 or 10
sheets a bunch of stuff for running a simple test like an "Activity board"
for 16F84 and 12C50XJW.

Is anyone outhere able to sell me a single or couple of sheets . Cost
including Shipping will be prepaid if required.

e-mail directly to:     @spam@eriveraKILLspamspamumemphis.campus.mci.net

I will greatly appreciate.

Eduardo

1998\11\23@182258 by Jeff Jolie

flavicon
face
If you give Digi-key  or DynaArt a call perhaps they will send you samples.
Jeff
-----Original Message-----
From: Eduardo R. <KILLspameriveraKILLspamspamUMEMPHIS.CAMPUS.MCI.NET>
To: RemoveMEPICLISTTakeThisOuTspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU <spamBeGonePICLISTspamBeGonespamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Date: Monday, November 23, 1998 6:08 PM
Subject: Re: Fast Prototyping


{Quote hidden}

1998\11\24@143253 by Brian Whittaker

flavicon
face
Hi
I have tried using a photo copier.
Sometimes there is a problem because
the reproduction size is not always 1:1.
Commonly it is 1-2% smaller than full size.
When I complained to the operator I was
told that the slight reduction was to make
sure that the copy machine copies all of
the original. I did careful measurements,
determined the % reduction, made my
original bigger . . . to no avail. Seems
as if each time the enlargement /
reduction setting was changed the machine
ended up with a different reduction.

. . . Brian

> {Original Message removed}

1998\11\25@034637 by Morgan Olsson

picon face
At 11:31 1998-11-24 -0800, you wrote:
>Hi
>I have tried using a photo copier.
>Sometimes there is a problem because
>the reproduction size is not always 1:1.
>Commonly it is 1-2% smaller than full size.
>When I complained to the operator I was
>told that the slight reduction was to make
>sure that the copy machine copies all of
>the original. I did careful measurements,
>determined the % reduction, made my
>original bigger . . . to no avail. Seems
>as if each time the enlargement /
>reduction setting was changed the machine
>ended up with a different reduction.
>
>. . . Brian
>

The X and Y scale error often is slightly different, so always use the same
orientation.

Also the thickness of what you are printing to affects the scale in
direction of movement in the machine, as the radious from the driving roll
axis to paper thickness center vary with the thickess!

For inkjet printers the scale in direction of head movement is correct (my
HP550 anyway) byt the scale in length vary as said above :(

/Morgan
       Morgan Olsson                   ph  +46(0)414 70741
       MORGANS REGLERTEKNIK            fax +46(0)414 70331
       H€LLEKS           (in A-Z letters: "HALLEKAS")
       SE-277 35 KIVIK, SWEDEN               RemoveMEmrtspamTakeThisOuTiname.com
___________________________________________________________

More... (looser matching)
- Last day of these posts
- In 1998 , 1999 only
- Today
- New search...