Post by thread:Descaling

Hi colleagues, I want to build a water descaling device bcus our water here has a hardness level about 25 German Grades. I have seen such commercial things, but I do not understand: there is one which has two output wires should be wound on the pipe. However, the two wires aren't connected so this can produce only electrical (no magnetic!) field. Such way - assuming it works - it will be useless if the pipe is conducting. However, it is not said it may not be. So I guess it is a hoax. This one has a NE555 and generates 5V, 1kHz. I have read about another one, it produces magnetic field as there are four coils on the pipe and it is supplied with a very-low frequency modulated square wave (it is said the frequency changes between 1 to 12 kHz within 20 seconds). It seems for me more believable. I would do it, of course with a PIC. Now the question: does know anybody how much flux must be supplied? I. e. how many windings the coil(s) must have, and how much current must be supplied. All the providers say their device consumes practically nothing... Of course, it would be nice to know from a proven source, whether this all works. Thank you in advance Imre

There use to be some articles on the topic on ELEKTOR magazines. They didn't say if it worked ... :-) But they say that "commercial modules" had the same design than theirs So DIY should work, at least, as well as commercial ones ... Good luck ! Tell us if you can see an improvement ! Bye Jean-Yves ---------- De : Dr. Imre Bartfai[SMTP:spam_OUTrootTakeThisOuTPROF.PMMF.HU] Date : mardi 15 dŽcembre 1998 13:38 A : pic microcontroller discussion Cc : Seyler Jean-Yves Objet : Descaling Hi colleagues, I want to build a water descaling device bcus our water here has a hardness level about 25 German Grades. I have seen such commercial things, but I do not understand: there is one which has two output wires should be wound on the pipe. However, the two wires aren't connected so this can produce only electrical (no magnetic!) field. Such way - assuming it works - it will be useless if the pipe is conducting. However, it is not said it may not be. So I guess it is a hoax. This one has a NE555 and generates 5V, 1kHz. I have read about another one, it produces magnetic field as there are four coils on the pipe and it is supplied with a very-low frequency modulated square wave (it is said the frequency changes between 1 to 12 kHz within 20 seconds). It seems for me more believable. I would do it, of course with a PIC. Now the question: does know anybody how much flux must be supplied? I. e. how many windings the coil(s) must have, and how much current must be supplied. All the providers say their device consumes practically nothing... Of course, it would be nice to know from a proven source, whether this all works. Thank you in advance Imre

well....if it was higher frequencies (ultrasonic), maybe it was meant to 'loosen' the scales, and then let them wash down the pipe??? hmmm.....*starting a patent search*. {Quote hidden}> ---------- > From: Stefan Sczekalla-Waldschmidt[SMTP:.....sswKILLspam@spam@OIKOSSW.DE] > Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 1998 8:21 AM > To: PICLISTKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU > Subject: Re: Descaling > > Hi Imre, > > > So I guess it is a hoax. This one has a NE555 and generates 5V, 1kHz. > > > I guess these devices are all hoax. Possibly a "Ionen-Tauscher" may help > If you need it in case of the washing or laundry - just add some > citric-acid > "Zitronensdure" where you normally add "Weichsp|ler" ( a liquid which > the marketing > tells it will soften the clothes ). > > Kind regards > > Stefan >

{Quote hidden}> I want to build a water descaling device bcus our water here has a > hardness level about 25 German Grades. I have seen such commercial things, > but I do not understand: > there is one which has two output wires should be wound on the pipe. > However, the two wires aren't connected so this can produce only > electrical (no magnetic!) field. Such way - assuming it works - it will be > useless if the pipe is conducting. However, it is not said it may not be. > So I guess it is a hoax. This one has a NE555 and generates 5V, 1kHz. > > I have read about another one, it produces magnetic field as there are > four coils on the pipe and it is supplied with a very-low frequency > modulated square wave (it is said the frequency changes between 1 to 12 > kHz within 20 seconds). It seems for me more believable. I would do it, of > course with a PIC. Now the question: > > does know anybody how much flux must be supplied? I. e. how many windings > the coil(s) must have, and how much current must be supplied. All the > providers say their device consumes practically nothing... Of course, it > would be nice to know from a proven source, whether this all works. > > Thank you in advance > Imre > OK, i admit it, im a hydrogeochemist with 25 years in the water field. Lets just think about this a minute: If i put limestone or lime in water with a carbonate source (say, an open can/tinnie of beer) in a closed environment (the CO2 from the beer becomes HCO- then goes to HCO3--) then the dissolved carbonic acid will combine with the calcium to make a scale of CaCO3 which is a common form of hardness. I dont see any particular electromagnetic flux involved. Just ordinary chemistry. To reverse the process (descale), i need to make the water more acid. I dont see where singing to it, shouting at it, playing radio waves to it, or shining bright lights on this will change the situation a bit. ive seen a few ads in the US for these devices but i think its wishful thinking. i dont see where anything electromagnetic will alter the chemical thermodynamics of the scaling process. Mechanically, yes, bashing on a clogged pipe (hammer, ultrasound, singing) will remove the scale, but leave a lot of seedbed behind for more scale to form. it needs both bashing and cleaning with a wire brush and acid bath to get the scale and the seedbed for the scale to go away. of course it comes back eventually. Chemical deionization and chemical softening do work, but because of expense people want magic i guess. currently working on next-generation perpetual motion machine... pic-based, with piezoelectic shoe power and optimized quadrature encoding. will write when.... alice

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 >currently working on next-generation perpetual motion machine... >pic-based, with piezoelectic shoe power and optimized quadrature >encoding. will write when.... > > >alice But the PIC version will work TWICE as well as the magnet version, because of the E-Field radiation of the clock harmonics. :) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.5.5 Comment: Trust them, they're from the government! (NOT!) iQA/AwUBNnaJbkt+LG8vnBoNEQL+3QCghQx+MGWXiIUNH4Nj3VlLLo2LD+kAoLb7 FBK0MN6m5YxRPDSJysugkzJ5 =bhL7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

On Tue, 15 Dec 1998, Harrison Cooper wrote: > well....if it was higher frequencies (ultrasonic), maybe it was meant to > 'loosen' the scales, and then let them wash down the pipe??? > > hmmm.....*starting a patent search*. The scales aren't attached to anything, they will be later ;( Descaling can be done by precipitating some of the salts dissolved in the water or by filtering them out directly. Precipitation can be achieved with suitable electrodes and some low intensity current probably but I am CERTAIN that the current must pass through the electrodes and the water for this. Using low voltage AC with a superimposed DC bias makes sense here (to prevent electrode polarization). Now, what electrodes will do this for you ? Peter

At 01:52 PM 15/12/98 +0100, you wrote: There are a few companies around producing such devices to eliminate Legionella in cooling water in place of chemicals. There is a group in Perth doing this work and they have also done some work on scaling in process industries. They say they have proved that it works but cannot adequately explain how it is achieved. Some of the answers is that the chemical energy imparted by the magnetic field is taken up by the fluid pasing through (HOW??) and this allows chemical reactions to proceed quicker and so scaling is reduced. The process control people who are naturally conservative are holing off until suitable explanations can be given. The one I have seen is a large electo-maget with a rotating field. The rotation and field strength is adjusted so as to kill the legionella organism. Sorry I cannot give more details. Peter Grey Neosystems {Quote hidden}>There use to be some articles on the topic on ELEKTOR magazines. >They didn't say if it worked ... :-) >But they say that "commercial modules" had the same design than theirs >So DIY should work, at least, as well as commercial ones ... > >Good luck ! Tell us if you can see an improvement ! > >Bye > >Jean-Yves > ---------- >De : Dr. Imre Bartfai[SMTP:.....rootKILLspam.....PROF.PMMF.HU] >Date : mardi 15 dŽcembre 1998 13:38 >A : pic microcontroller discussion >Cc : Seyler Jean-Yves >Objet : Descaling > >Hi colleagues, > >I want to build a water descaling device bcus our water here has a >hardness level about 25 German Grades. I have seen such commercial things, >but I do not understand: >there is one which has two output wires should be wound on the pipe. >However, the two wires aren't connected so this can produce only >electrical (no magnetic!) field. Such way - assuming it works - it will be >useless if the pipe is conducting. However, it is not said it may not be. >So I guess it is a hoax. This one has a NE555 and generates 5V, 1kHz. > >I have read about another one, it produces magnetic field as there are >four coils on the pipe and it is supplied with a very-low frequency >modulated square wave (it is said the frequency changes between 1 to 12 >kHz within 20 seconds). It seems for me more believable. I would do it, of >course with a PIC. Now the question: > >does know anybody how much flux must be supplied? I. e. how many windings >the coil(s) must have, and how much current must be supplied. All the >providers say their device consumes practically nothing... Of course, it >would be nice to know from a proven source, whether this all works. > >Thank you in advance >Imre > >

It can take a big push to start an object with large inertia, see signature file below. regards, Graham Daniel. Alice Campbell wrote: <<cut>> Mechanically, yes, bashing on a clogged pipe {Quote hidden}> (hammer, ultrasound, singing) will remove the scale, but leave a lot > of seedbed behind for more scale to form. it needs both bashing and > cleaning with a wire brush and acid bath to get the scale and the > seedbed for the scale to go away. of course it comes back > eventually. Chemical deionization and chemical softening do work, > but because of expense people want magic i guess. > currently working on next-generation perpetual motion machine... > pic-based, with piezoelectic shoe power and optimized quadrature > encoding. will write when.... > > alice -- Steam engines may be out of fashion, but when you consider that an internal combustion engine would require recovery of waste heat by transfer just before top dead centre then fashion becomes rather redundant, USE STRATIFIED HEAT EXCHANGERS ! and external combustion. You heard it first from: Graham Daniel, managing director of Electronic Product Enhancements. Phone NZ 04 387 4347, Fax NZ 04 3874348, Cellular NZ 021 954 196.