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PICList Thread
'Descaling'
1998\12\15@074814 by Dr. Imre Bartfai

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Hi colleagues,

I want to build a water descaling device bcus our water here has a
hardness level about 25 German Grades. I have seen such commercial things,
but I do not understand:
there is one which has two output wires should be wound on the pipe.
However, the two wires aren't connected so this can produce only
electrical (no magnetic!) field. Such way - assuming it works - it will be
useless if the pipe is conducting. However, it is not said it may not be.
So I guess it is a hoax. This one has a NE555 and generates 5V, 1kHz.

I have read about another one, it produces magnetic field as there are
four coils on the pipe and it is supplied with a very-low frequency
modulated square wave (it is said the frequency changes between 1 to 12
kHz within 20 seconds). It seems for me more believable. I would do it, of
course with a PIC. Now the question:

does know anybody how much flux must be supplied? I. e. how many windings
the coil(s) must have, and how much current must be supplied. All the
providers say their device consumes practically nothing... Of course, it
would be nice to know from a proven source, whether this all works.

Thank you in advance
Imre

1998\12\15@080445 by Seyler, Jean-Yves

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There use to be some articles on the topic on ELEKTOR magazines.
They didn't say if it worked ... :-)
But they say that "commercial modules" had the same design than theirs
So DIY should work, at least, as well as commercial ones ...

Good luck ! Tell us if you can see an improvement !

Bye

Jean-Yves
----------
De :  Dr. Imre Bartfai[SMTP:spam_OUTrootTakeThisOuTspamPROF.PMMF.HU]
Date : mardi 15 dŽcembre 1998 13:38
A : pic microcontroller discussion
Cc : Seyler Jean-Yves
Objet : Descaling

Hi colleagues,

I want to build a water descaling device bcus our water here has a
hardness level about 25 German Grades. I have seen such commercial things,
but I do not understand:
there is one which has two output wires should be wound on the pipe.
However, the two wires aren't connected so this can produce only
electrical (no magnetic!) field. Such way - assuming it works - it will be
useless if the pipe is conducting. However, it is not said it may not be.
So I guess it is a hoax. This one has a NE555 and generates 5V, 1kHz.

I have read about another one, it produces magnetic field as there are
four coils on the pipe and it is supplied with a very-low frequency
modulated square wave (it is said the frequency changes between 1 to 12
kHz within 20 seconds). It seems for me more believable. I would do it, of
course with a PIC. Now the question:

does know anybody how much flux must be supplied? I. e. how many windings
the coil(s) must have, and how much current must be supplied. All the
providers say their device consumes practically nothing... Of course, it
would be nice to know from a proven source, whether this all works.

Thank you in advance
Imre

1998\12\15@102219 by Stefan Sczekalla-Waldschmidt

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Hi Imre,

> So I guess it is a hoax. This one has a NE555 and generates 5V, 1kHz.
>
I guess these devices are all hoax. Possibly a "Ionen-Tauscher" may help
If you need it in case of the washing or laundry - just add some
citric-acid
"Zitronensdure" where you normally add "Weichsp|ler" ( a liquid which
the marketing
tells it will soften the clothes ).

Kind regards

        Stefan

1998\12\15@103053 by Harrison Cooper

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well....if it was higher frequencies (ultrasonic), maybe it was meant to
'loosen' the scales, and then let them wash down the pipe???

hmmm.....*starting a patent search*.

{Quote hidden}

1998\12\15@110756 by Alice Campbell

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{Quote hidden}

OK, i admit it, im a hydrogeochemist with 25 years in the water
field. Lets just think about this a minute:  If i put limestone or
lime in water with a carbonate source (say, an open can/tinnie of
beer) in a closed environment (the CO2 from the beer becomes HCO-
then goes to HCO3--) then the dissolved carbonic acid will combine
with the calcium to make a scale of CaCO3 which is a common form of
hardness.  I dont see any particular electromagnetic flux involved.
Just ordinary chemistry.  To reverse the process (descale), i need to
make the water more acid.  I dont see where singing to it, shouting
at it, playing radio waves to it, or shining bright lights on this
will change the situation a bit.  ive seen a few ads in the US for
these devices but i think its wishful thinking.   i dont see where
anything electromagnetic will alter the chemical thermodynamics of
the scaling process.  Mechanically, yes, bashing on a clogged pipe
(hammer, ultrasound, singing) will remove the scale, but leave a lot
of seedbed behind for more scale to form.  it needs both bashing and
cleaning with a wire brush and acid bath to get the scale and the
seedbed for the scale to go away.  of course it comes back
eventually.  Chemical deionization and chemical softening do work,
but because of expense people want magic i guess.
currently working on next-generation perpetual motion machine...
pic-based, with piezoelectic shoe power and optimized quadrature
encoding. will write when....


alice

1998\12\15@111208 by dave vanhorn

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>currently working on next-generation perpetual motion machine...
>pic-based, with piezoelectic shoe power and optimized quadrature
>encoding. will write when....
>
>
>alice


But the PIC version will work TWICE as well as the magnet version, because
of the E-Field radiation of the clock harmonics.

:)


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1998\12\15@120703 by Peter L. Peres

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On Tue, 15 Dec 1998, Harrison Cooper wrote:

> well....if it was higher frequencies (ultrasonic), maybe it was meant to
> 'loosen' the scales, and then let them wash down the pipe???
>
> hmmm.....*starting a patent search*.

The scales aren't attached to anything, they will be later ;( Descaling
can be done by precipitating some of the salts dissolved in the water or
by filtering them out directly. Precipitation can be achieved with
suitable electrodes and some low intensity current probably but I am
CERTAIN that the current must pass through the electrodes and the water
for this. Using low voltage AC with a superimposed DC bias makes sense
here (to prevent electrode polarization).

Now, what electrodes will do this for you ?

Peter

1998\12\15@200904 by Peter Grey

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At 01:52 PM 15/12/98 +0100, you wrote:

There are a few companies around producing such devices to eliminate
Legionella in cooling water in place of chemicals. There is a group in Perth
doing this work and they have also done some work on scaling in process
industries. They say they have proved that it works but cannot adequately
explain how it is achieved. Some of the answers is that the chemical energy
imparted by the magnetic field is taken up by the fluid pasing through
(HOW??) and this allows chemical reactions to proceed quicker and so scaling
is reduced. The process control people who are naturally conservative are
holing off until suitable explanations can be given.

The one I have seen is a large electo-maget with a rotating field. The
rotation and field strength is adjusted so as to kill the legionella
organism. Sorry I cannot give more details.


Peter Grey
Neosystems

{Quote hidden}

1998\12\16@050811 by g.daniel.invent.design

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It can take a big push to start an object with large inertia, see
signature file below.

regards,
Graham Daniel.
Alice Campbell wrote:
<<cut>>
Mechanically, yes, bashing on a clogged pipe
{Quote hidden}

--
Steam engines may be out of fashion, but when you consider that an
internal combustion engine would require recovery of waste heat by
transfer just before top dead centre then fashion becomes rather
redundant, USE STRATIFIED HEAT EXCHANGERS ! and external combustion.

You heard it first from: Graham Daniel, managing director of Electronic
Product Enhancements.
Phone NZ 04 387 4347, Fax NZ 04 3874348, Cellular NZ 021 954 196.

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