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PICList Thread
'Crystals'
1994\11\15@052824 by crocontroller discussion list

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I`ve had problems with crystals too.
I didn`t need the reccommended 1M across the crystal, but I couldn`t work
out for ages which of HS or XT to use.  I`m now using HS on a 16C84 with
4MHz Xtal.
Cap to gnd from OSC1 and from OSC2 = 33pF

Bryan

PS I`m not just using the above, it actually works, too!

--
---------------------------------
BRYAN CROTAZ - spam_OUTb.crotazTakeThisOuTspamic.ac.uk
---------------------------------
TECHNICAL MANAGER
Student Television Of Imperial College
Beit Quad, Prince Consort Road
London  SW7 2BB
Tel. 071-594-8104
Fax. 071-225-2309 attn. STOIC

1994\11\16@182150 by crocontroller discussion list

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On Tue, 15 Nov 1994, Bryan Crotaz wrote:

> I`ve had problems with crystals too.
> I didn`t need the reccommended 1M across the crystal, but I couldn`t work
> out for ages which of HS or XT to use.  I`m now using HS on a 16C84 with
> 4MHz Xtal.
> Cap to gnd from OSC1 and from OSC2 = 33pF
>

Thanks, I replaced the crystal and now the circuit works correctly with
the PIC set to the HS mode.

Scott


'Crystals'
1996\07\23@120139 by John Piccirillo
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>What book is it that says you need parallel?  I don't know enough about it.
>If anyone has further recommendations as to the clock circuit, I would be
>much obliged.
>
>Brad

 Microchip app note 588 is all about crystals.

John-


'crystals'
1998\05\18@160839 by John P. Leonard
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A while back (before the N-bomb stuff, but maybe after the cow stuff)
someone mentioned a problem with BURNING-OUT crystals by using the wrong
value resistors.  I'm using 3.58Mhz ceramic oscillators with 56pf caps on
a batch of 16C554's running at 3.3V from Ni-Cd batteries and NO resistors.
Could this cause premature failures?  The 16C554 data sheet diagram and
spec's don't include any limiting resistors for the oscillator circuit.
The chips are programmed as having "XT" oscillators.

I nominate Andy Warren as official spokesman for the PIC-list when the
wierd sh*t pops onto the list.  (Man, talk about fuzzy logic...)

John
(the BEST engineering student employee I've ever had was from Laos;
probably the hardest working man I've ever met.)

1998\05\18@182019 by Steve Baldwin

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> A while back (before the N-bomb stuff, but maybe after the cow stuff)
> someone mentioned a problem with BURNING-OUT crystals by using the wrong
> value resistors.  I'm using 3.58Mhz ceramic oscillators with 56pf caps on
> a batch of 16C554's running at 3.3V from Ni-Cd batteries and NO resistors.
> Could this cause premature failures?

Probably not, although you would really need to have the full specs
from the resonator manufacturer to be sure. It would be nice to have
a bit more info from Microchip on what the oscillator mode switches
do. Do they alter just the frequency response of the amp, the gain,
the o/p impedance or a mixture ?

If you were overdriving the device, you would notice erratic
operation long before it "blew up". The usual symptom of an
overdriven crystal is jumping to overtone and spurious modes so it
appears to run fast. This might be a few percent (spurious) or three
times the rated frequency (overtone) although it can go quite high.
You can get a few MHz out of a 32kHz crystal if you hit it hard
enough.

Steve.
======================================================
Steve Baldwin                Electronic Product Design
TLA Microsystems Ltd         Microcontroller Specialists
PO Box 15-680, New Lynn      http://www.tla.co.nz
Auckland, New Zealand        ph  +64 9 820-2221
email: .....stevebKILLspamspam@spam@tla.co.nz      fax +64 9 820-1929
======================================================

1998\05\18@195713 by Gordon Couger

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;If you were overdriving the device, you would notice erratic
;operation long before it "blew up". The usual symptom of an
;overdriven crystal is jumping to overtone and spurious modes so it
;appears to run fast. This might be a few percent (spurious) or three
;times the rated frequency (overtone) although it can go quite high.
;You can get a few MHz out of a 32kHz crystal if you hit it hard
;enough.


I had some Z80 boxes that liked to run on the 5th overtone. Get a
scope on the line and increase the resistance until the crystal gets
slow starting and back off about 50 to 75% on the resistance.

Gordon

Gordon Couger gcougerspamKILLspamrfdata.net
624 Cheyenne
Stillwater, OK 74075
405 624-2855   GMT -6:00

Steve.
======================================================
Steve Baldwin                Electronic Product Design
TLA Microsystems Ltd         Microcontroller Specialists
PO Box 15-680, New Lynn      http://www.tla.co.nz
Auckland, New Zealand        ph  +64 9 820-2221
email: .....stevebKILLspamspam.....tla.co.nz      fax +64 9 820-1929
======================================================

1998\05\19@132332 by Matt Bonner

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Steve Baldwin wrote:
>
> Probably not, although you would really need to have the full specs
> from the resonator manufacturer to be sure. It would be nice to have
> a bit more info from Microchip on what the oscillator mode switches
> do. Do they alter just the frequency response of the amp, the gain,
> the o/p impedance or a mixture ?
>
I asked MChip directly about this last year.  Apparently, changing the
oscillator mode only changes the value of the internal feedback
resistor.  One of my projects used an external 2.4576MHz oscillator - I
programmed the PIC for LP mode (highest feedback resistance) to achieve
the lowest power consumption.

--Matt

1998\05\19@145109 by Mike Keitz

picon face
On Tue, 19 May 1998 11:02:31 -0600 Matt Bonner <EraseMEmbonnerspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTSUNADA.COM>
writes:
>Steve Baldwin wrote:
>>
>> Probably not, although you would really need to have the full specs
>> from the resonator manufacturer to be sure. It would be nice to have
>> a bit more info from Microchip on what the oscillator mode switches
>> do. Do they alter just the frequency response of the amp, the gain,
>> the o/p impedance or a mixture ?
>>
>I asked MChip directly about this last year.  Apparently, changing the
>oscillator mode only changes the value of the internal feedback
>resistor.  One of my projects used an external 2.4576MHz oscillator -
>I
>programmed the PIC for LP mode (highest feedback resistance) to
>achieve
>the lowest power consumption.

The oscillator "fuses" change the transconductance (Iout/Vin) of the
oscillator, probably by switching in different sizes of MOSFET's.  Early
PIC16C5X data had graphs showing the transconductance for different
modes.  Apparently we don't need to know that now, so Mchip leaves it
out.

With a CMOS inverter type of oscillator such as in a PIC, the feedback
resistor is needed only to control the DC operating point of the
oscillator.  For the RF signal, it provides undesirable negative
feedback, so it should be as large as possible.  Power consumption is
lower with the lower speed oscillator settings because the low
transconductance means less conduction between Vdd and Vss when the
oscillator is in the linear range.

Lower transconductance also means less output current, thus lower crystal
drive.  Damage to crystals is very unlikely except for low-frequency
ones, in which case a resistor in series with the oscillator output pin
is used.  You can check for crystal overdrive by increasing the supply
voltage.  If the frequency changes significantly, the crystal is probably
being overdriven.

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

1998\05\19@181154 by John Mullan

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part 0 938 bytes

-----Original Message-----
From:   John P. Leonard [SMTP:leonardspamspam_OUTTARDIS.SVSU.EDU]
Sent:   Monday, May 18, 1998 2:41 PM
To:     @spam@PICLISTKILLspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject:        crystals

A while back (before the N-bomb stuff, but maybe after the cow stuff)
someone mentioned a problem with BURNING-OUT crystals by using the wrong
value resistors.  I'm using 3.58Mhz ceramic oscillators with 56pf caps on
a batch of 16C554's running at 3.3V from Ni-Cd batteries and NO resistors.
Could this cause premature failures?  The 16C554 data sheet diagram and
spec's don't include any limiting resistors for the oscillator circuit.
The chips are programmed as having "XT" oscillators.

I nominate Andy Warren as official spokesman for the PIC-list when the
wierd sh*t pops onto the list.  (Man, talk about fuzzy logic...)

John
(the BEST engineering student employee I've ever had was from Laos;
probably the hardest working man I've ever met.)

1998\05\28@185418 by Anthony Tekatch

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>A while back (before the N-bomb stuff, but maybe after the cow stuff)
>someone mentioned a problem with BURNING-OUT crystals by using the wrong
>value resistors.  I'm using 3.58Mhz ceramic oscillators with 56pf caps on
>a batch of 16C554's running at 3.3V from Ni-Cd batteries and NO
>resistors. Could this cause premature failures?  The 16C554 data sheet
>diagram and spec's don't include any limiting resistors for the
>oscillator circuit. The chips are programmed as having "XT" oscillators.

I burnt out a few 32Khz crystals using the PIC before I realized that I
needed a series resistor of about 10K or more. I think only the low
frequency crystals are more prone to burning out.

1998\05\28@191318 by David VanHorn

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>
>I burnt out a few 32Khz crystals using the PIC before I realized that I
>needed a series resistor of about 10K or more. I think only the low
>frequency crystals are more prone to burning out.

The watch xtals are designed to operate on absolute minimum
energy (for obvious reasons) and ANY crystal can be destroyed
by too much energy.

A uP is probably a bit hot for watch xtals, but anything in the larger
cans should be fine. (I've never seen it be an issue in 15 years)

There used to be xtals in a case about 1" x 1.5" x .5", and it was
fairly common to use those at .5 - 1W in single tube transmitters.

You could also take them out of the case and lap them to a higher
freq or rub a little solder on them and lower the frequency.


'Crystals'
1999\01\14@093157 by Gregg Kricorissian
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Has anyone used crystals made by a US firm called "Valpey-Fisher"? They've
been around since 1931 according to their adverts and they have excellent
pricing, but I'd like some feedback in terms of their quality.

I'm planning to use their VM6SSM2 (3.579 MHz) crystal in volume production
with a 16LF84-based product.  The loading caps will be 18pf.  However, Vdd
will be at the low end of what the LF84's on-chip clock wants to have, and
I'm concerned about reliable clock start up.   I'd like to tap the
collective knowledge as to any experiences in this regard with this firm's
products.  (I've been using Fox FPX-036 crystals until now, but the VM6SS
pricing is just tooo good to ignore).

I'd appreciate direct email replies, since I get only the digest version of
the list.

Many thanks,
.. Gregg
KILLspamgregg-kKILLspamspamspyder-IT.com

1999\01\14@123409 by Ed Edmondson

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This company is one of the most well known crystal and oscillator firms in
business.  Their products are used by such notables as Rockwell International,
Alcatel, Boeing Electronics, Texas Instruments to name a few.  When I was
employed by Rockwell and TI in the late 80's and early to mid 90's we used
quite a few of their products with NEVER a problem.  They have an excellent
track record as far as their product quality and reliability.

As far as your application is concerned I would suggest you contact VF's
applications engineering group and discuss your concerns with them.  You could
also discuss them with Microchip if you can get better service from you
regional FAE.  The support personnel in the Dallas, Texas office don't seem to
be as helpful as some I've seen.

Hope this helps some.

Dr. Ed


'Crystals'
1999\02\11@133123 by verhage
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I have a PIC 16Cxx that I'm using for an amateur radio application
[1].  I'm using a 20Mhz crystal, but it appears the PIC is not
functioning.  I wonder if I should go to a ceramic oscillator
instead.  Is there crystal "problems" that I should be aware of?

Thanks,
Lloyd

[1]  The application is called a MIM Module.  Its a TNC for amateur
radios (basically a modem for radio).  Its designed by Dr Will
Clement.

1999\02\11@134700 by dave vanhorn

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At 12:28 PM 2/11/99 +0000, Lloyd Verhage wrote:
>I have a PIC 16Cxx that I'm using for an amateur radio application
>[1].  I'm using a 20Mhz crystal, but it appears the PIC is not
>functioning.  I wonder if I should go to a ceramic oscillator
>instead.  Is there crystal "problems" that I should be aware of?

Did you use a paralell resonant crystal, with the proper load caps?

1999\02\11@144242 by verhage

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> >I have a PIC 16Cxx that I'm using for an amateur radio application
> >[1].  I'm using a 20Mhz crystal, but it appears the PIC is not
> >functioning.  I wonder if I should go to a ceramic oscillator
> >instead.  Is there crystal "problems" that I should be aware of?
>
> Did you use a paralell resonant crystal, with the proper load caps?

The crystal I have is a 20Mhz clock crystal from Jameco.  The
schematic for the MIM only shows filtering caps from 5 volts to
ground.  There's one for the MIM and another for its EEPROM.  both
caps are 0.1 uF.

Lloyd

PS For those interested in the MIM, Dr Clement's phone number is
(410) 518-6591

1999\02\11@144702 by Harrison Cooper
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Describe your device.  Is it a 4 pin, 14pin DIP size thing?  Then in this
case, its a TTL oscillator, not a pure crystal.  How is it wired up....if it
is an oscillator?

1999\02\11@145117 by dave vanhorn

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>The crystal I have is a 20Mhz clock crystal from Jameco.  The
>schematic for the MIM only shows filtering caps from 5 volts to
>ground.  There's one for the MIM and another for its EEPROM.  both
>caps are 0.1 uF.

If you have a crystal, you need a pair of caps usually in about 20pF to ground.
It is possible that it was designed for a resonator with internal caps, in
that case there should be three leads for the "crystal".

1999\02\11@152531 by verhage

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> Describe your device.  Is it a 4 pin, 14pin DIP size thing?  Then in this
> case, its a TTL oscillator, not a pure crystal.  How is it wired up....if it
> is an oscillator?

Its a 28 pin dip.  The problem is that the label covers the IC, so I
can only make out the 16C part of it.

Lloyd

1999\02\11@153607 by dave vanhorn

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At 02:23 PM 2/11/99 +0000, Lloyd Verhage wrote:
>> Describe your device.  Is it a 4 pin, 14pin DIP size thing?  Then in this
>> case, its a TTL oscillator, not a pure crystal.  How is it wired up....if it
>> is an oscillator?
>
>Its a 28 pin dip.  The problem is that the label covers the IC, so I
>can only make out the 16C part of it.
>
>Lloyd

He was asking about the xtal, not the micro.  They make oscillators, in
either 8 or 14 pin metal can or plastic dips, but I doubt that's what you
have on the mim.

1999\02\11@154445 by Gerhard Fiedler

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At 14:23 02/11/99 +0000, Lloyd Verhage wrote:
>> Describe your device.  Is it a 4 pin, 14pin DIP size thing?  Then in this
>> case, its a TTL oscillator, not a pure crystal.  How is it wired up....if it
>> is an oscillator?
>
>Its a 28 pin dip.  The problem is that the label covers the IC, so I
>can only make out the 16C part of it.

i think he was talking about the possibility that your "crystal" might be a
complete oscillator (there are some out there like he described: 14pin dip
size, with only the pins 1,7,8,14).

if it's actually a crystal (usually a 2pin metal case), you need the
approx. 20pF caps somebody else mentioned. if it's a resonator (usually
3pin and not metal), it might or not have the caps built in (if it hasn't,
you need them, too). if it's an oscillators like the above mentioned it
needs a connection to the power supply.

ge

1999\02\11@161008 by verhage

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> >> Describe your device.  Is it a 4 pin, 14pin DIP size thing?  Then in this
> >> case, its a TTL oscillator, not a pure crystal.  How is it wired up....if i
t
> >> is an oscillator?
> >
> >Its a 28 pin dip.  The problem is that the label covers the IC, so I
> >can only make out the 16C part of it.
> >
> >Lloyd
>
> He was asking about the xtal, not the micro.  They make oscillators, in
> either 8 or 14 pin metal can or plastic dips, but I doubt that's what you
> have on the mim.

Sorry, my mistake.
The crystal is a two lead can.  The leads are 0.2" apart.  The metal
can stands about 0.5" tall.

Dr Clement's email address is:
"William I. Clement" <RemoveMEwclementTakeThisOuTspamtoad.net>

Thanks,
Lloyd

1999\02\11@161219 by verhage

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> i think he was talking about the possibility that your "crystal" might be a
> complete oscillator (there are some out there like he described: 14pin dip
> size, with only the pins 1,7,8,14).
>
> if it's actually a crystal (usually a 2pin metal case), you need the
> approx. 20pF caps somebody else mentioned. if it's a resonator (usually
> 3pin and not metal), it might or not have the caps built in (if it hasn't,
> you need them, too). if it's an oscillators like the above mentioned it
> needs a connection to the power supply.

That's got to be what I have wrong.  The schematic makes it look like
a simple two lead crystal.  I'll see if I can find an oscillator that
will work.

Thanks for the info,
Lloyd

1999\02\11@161807 by dave vanhorn

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>That's got to be what I have wrong.  The schematic makes it look like
>a simple two lead crystal.  I'll see if I can find an oscillator that
>will work.
>
>Thanks for the info,
>Lloyd

There is no 2 lead osc. Just put a pair of 20pF caps from each lead of the
xtal to ground.
That should make it go. It may not be perfect, but it will go.

1999\02\11@162458 by paulb

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Lloyd Verhage wrote:

> That's got to be what I have wrong.  The schematic makes it look like
> a simple two lead crystal.  I'll see if I can find an oscillator that
> will work.

 Hey, steady on!  If it connects to two pins on the PIC, it *is* a
standard crystal and *needs* loading caps.  Using a "TTL Oscillator"
module like most PC motherboards nowadays is an easier option for 20MHz
and up and on this basis, they have become quite common (20MHz is a
likely value for a disk controller IIRC - may be salvageable from a junk
card) but consumes more current, if that is a consideration.

 If you *did* find one and use it, it is a 3-terminal device, you have
to identify Gnd, +5V and output which goes to OSC1 pin on the PIC, OSC2
then beinng left open, *no* loading caps and no other alteration
necessary.

 Again, the most important point - *listen* to it on your receiver,
(short antenna wire next to workbench) as it is presently and for
whatever change you make.  You'll definitely find out what's happening.
--
 Cheers,
       Paul B.

1999\02\11@162808 by paulb

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Lloyd Verhage wrote:

> I have a PIC 16Cxx that I'm using for an amateur radio application
> I'm using a 20Mhz crystal, but it appears the PIC is not functioning.

 The crystal requires loading caps, just as it does in a radio.  These
should be present on the board and specified in the circuit diagram.  I
find it highly improbable that these would be absent in a production kit
though if you were building from an article such an oversight could
occur ...

> I wonder if I should go to a ceramic oscillator instead.

 That's a rather implausible suggestion, even if you *could* find a
20MHz resonator, it would likely be even more difficult to coax into
operation and you would lose your baudrate accuracy.

>  Is there crystal "problems" that I should be aware of?

 Sure are, but if you have done any RF work you should know them -
as Dave mentioned, parallel resonant, fundamental mode, load capacity to
match the caps used (allowing for the capacity of the PIC), and you
would recall the trick of listening for the oscillator on your general
coverage RX!

> The application is called a MIM Module.

 Ringing isn't practical from here, and articles may be a bit tedious
but which mag was it in?  If it was on a Web site, that would be more
like it.  Web sites are easy to arrange, *plenty* of volunteer hosts
(such as myself!) for Amateur Radio.

Care to elaborate on a MIM module?  The concept of using a MCU for a TNC
is certainly not new.
--
 Cheers,
       Paul B.

1999\02\11@162814 by GregH

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Some(lots) PIC16XXX devices will not run above 4 MHz.  Unless you have the
EProm version you will have to scrape off the label and look for the suffix
at the end of the part number.  All PIC EProms (as far as I know) will run
at 20 MHz.

Also make sure that HS is selected on the programming configuration.


At 12:44 PM 2/11/99 -0800, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

1999\02\11@180234 by dave vanhorn

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At 01:17 PM 2/11/99 -0800, GregH wrote:
>Some(lots) PIC16XXX devices will not run above 4 MHz.  Unless you have the
>EProm version you will have to scrape off the label and look for the suffix
>at the end of the part number.  All PIC EProms (as far as I know) will run
>at 20 MHz.
>
>Also make sure that HS is selected on the programming configuration.

Is this a packaged kit from clement, or are you putting it together on your
own?

1999\02\11@180439 by dave vanhorn

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>  Ringing isn't practical from here, and articles may be a bit tedious
>but which mag was it in?  If it was on a Web site, that would be more
>like it.  Web sites are easy to arrange, *plenty* of volunteer hosts
>(such as myself!) for Amateur Radio.
>
>Care to elaborate on a MIM module?  The concept of using a MCU for a TNC
>is certainly not new.
>--
>  Cheers,
>        Paul B.


The MIM is a device that puts GPS info out on packet radio in APRS format.
It's a couple years old, and many units in the field.
I've not seen the schematic myself, but a defect like this should have been
rung out long ago.
(kc6ete, APRS pundit and Igate operator)

1999\02\11@181102 by verhage

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> Is this a packaged kit from clement, or are you putting it together on your
> own?

Dr Clement sells either the PCB populated or just the programmed PIC.
I purchased the programmed PIC (with some schematic info and the
programming s/w) so I could design it into my own contoller for
balloons.  His populated PCB wouldn't work well with what I'm doing,
but is great stand-alone.

Lloyd

1999\02\11@181705 by dave vanhorn

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At 05:10 PM 2/11/99 +0000, Lloyd Verhage wrote:
>> Is this a packaged kit from clement, or are you putting it together on your
>> own?
>
>Dr Clement sells either the PCB populated or just the programmed PIC.
> I purchased the programmed PIC (with some schematic info and the
>programming s/w) so I could design it into my own contoller for
>balloons.  His populated PCB wouldn't work well with what I'm doing,
>but is great stand-alone.
>
>Lloyd

Then I'd guess the schematic you have is wrong. Looking at the board
pictures, there are two caps on the sides of the xtal.. They should be on
the schematic. Just add a pair of 20pf and try. that's a very common load
value. If it dosen't seem to work, then odds are you have a series resonant
xtal, and you'll have to get the right thing.

1999\02\11@182108 by verhage

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>   The crystal requires loading caps, just as it does in a radio.  These
> should be present on the board and specified in the circuit diagram.  I
> find it highly improbable that these would be absent in a production kit
> though if you were building from an article such an oversight could
> occur ...

Dr Clement sells a completed PIC TNC for about $90.  Or you can
purchased the preprogrammed PIC (which is what I'm doing here).  He
includes a schematic with the PIC.  When I look at it, it shows a
20Mhz crystal connected to pins 9 and 10.  To me, it just looks like
a crystal (a cap symbol with a box between the plates).  That may be
implying loading caps, but I may be too ignorant to know that.

> > The application is called a MIM Module.
>
>   Ringing isn't practical from here, and articles may be a bit tedious
> but which mag was it in?  If it was on a Web site, that would be more
> like it.  Web sites are easy to arrange, *plenty* of volunteer hosts
> (such as myself!) for Amateur Radio.

I didn't find it on a webpage, although it may be on one.  I'll see
if I can find one.

> Care to elaborate on a MIM module?  The concept of using a MCU for a TNC
> is certainly not new.

The PIC is programmed to accept RS232 data from a GPS.  The PIC will
then calculate the CRC and the proper tones to send it over a radio
at 1200 baud (the APRS standard).  Of course it will key the radio
first.  You run his software to configure to to send only the GPS
data you want, your callsign, and text.  Its pretty nifty, and small.

Lloyd

1999\02\11@182729 by verhage

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> Then I'd guess the schematic you have is wrong. Looking at the board
> pictures, there are two caps on the sides of the xtal.. They should be on
> the schematic. Just add a pair of 20pf and try. that's a very common load
> value. If it dosen't seem to work, then odds are you have a series resonant
> xtal, and you'll have to get the right thing.

I may be misunderstanding what I'm seeing when I look at the
schematic, or it may be incomplete.

Thanks all for your help.  I didn't expect to get as many answers and
as fast like this.  It speaks volumes for the quality of this list.

A very satisfied customer.
Lloyd

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