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'Blocked email'
2000\03\21@041700 by Peter Crowcroft

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I think everyone on this list should be aware of what just happened to Don
McKenzie and myself over the last 24 hours. This is not OT. It can happen
to you.

Both of us are using prowebsite.com for our websites and email. Yesterday
morning our email stopped. I soon got faxes and phone calls to say it was
being blocked and bounced back to senders by 'mail-abuse.org/rbl'.

I will not detail the litany of furious, abusive, indignant, international
phone calls and emails which then took place. The problem seems to be
solved now but Don and I have lost 12 hours working time. (And I did not
get my piclist digest!)

Suffice to say that one of the mail servers at prowebsite.com had been
blocked by this company mail-abuse.org because one of the many domains on
this server was giving out spam. Don and I just happened to be hosted on
this same server so all our mail was blocked too. I understand that there
were many others similarly blocked.

I got a real surprise that this could happen with no warning to us. And
that it could happen at all. It seems that many/most ISP's in the USA use
this block list and apply it as a matter of routine. Despite having a
webpage and email since 10/95 I had never heard of mail-abuse.org or the
power they have.


Anyway, forget all the hair-pulling. Here is what I am going to do about it.

1. I will now have 2 and maybe 3 email addresses hosted by different ISPs.

2. I am going to put up a copy of my website with a different ISP with a
different name and advertise both.


It seems that as the Internet grows the problems are growing also. All any
of us can do is be aware of what is happening and try to stay in front.

I thank James Cameron for discussion about the problem.

regards,

Peter Crowcroft
                   DIY Electronics (HK) Ltd
               PO Box 88458, Sham Shui Po, Hong Kong
Voice: 852-2720 0255   Fax: 852-2725 0610    Web:  http://kitsrus.com
  Email: spam_OUTdiykitTakeThisOuTspampacific.net.hk            Email: .....peterKILLspamspam@spam@kitsrus.com

----------------------------------------------------------------------

2000\03\21@053249 by Mark Willis

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That definitely can not have been any fun...

The way the MAPS RBL works, (see http://www.mailabuse.org/rbl/ for
details) is that when someone SPAMs, and a user complains about their
sending SPAM to that ISP's admins, then they SPAM some more, and are
complained to the ISP's admins again, repeat until disgusted, THEN the
end user will nominate that ISP to the MAPS RBL.

>From http://www.mailabuse.org/rbl/reporting.html:
"If you can't get anybody's attention, or if they show a pattern of
shining you on, or if they won't stop their users or downstreams from
spamming, then and only then should you send us some mail about it."

Talk to the folks at MAPS - I'd bet that someone has been getting SPAM
regularly from prowebsite for some time, and nominated them for this
"honor".  Had it happen to this ISP once, they shut down the SPAMmer
quickly after that, if they hadn't already done so...

Definitely agree that it's a problem when it happens;  As the MAPS
people can take your ISP off the RBL in minutes if the problem's solved,
it should not have taken 12 hours!?  Took under an hour IIRC, when
foxinternet.net fell onto the RBL.

Member ISP's choose to fetch and implement blocking based on their list
- it's a "Bazaar" approach to SPAM, it may not be perfect, it does work
somewhat, or member ISP's wouldn't join it.  (I'd bet it stops 30-40% of
the SPAM streaming in to each member ISP, frankly.  It blocks the worst
of the offenders, sort of like jailing repeat offenders for life, not
perfect but beats having them live on your block...)

Here in the USA, SPAM is a real problem;  I've received as many as 40+
SPAM a day (at the time, I was not on the PICList and was only getting
about 4 "real" messages daily.)  The usual SPAM is far longer than the
usual "real" e-mail, and then the ISP's have to deal with reading all
the complaint letters, tracing the culprit, etc. etc. - The MAPS RBL
exists because it puts pressure on those who abuse the Internet, and
those who are "clueless" about the problems SPAM causes.  I know, the
cure still seems as bad as the disease, probably, from where you're
standing;  I get about 2-3 SPAM a day nowadays, on this account, expect
the count to decrease as I change ISP's again soon.

Interestingly, I rarely get responses from my SPAM "LARTs" any more - I
get the idea that, with more people on the Internet, ISP Admins are
pretty busy and overworked - I think they use the RBL to prevent going
stark raving mad, really, by reducing their workload.

 Mark

Peter Crowcroft wrote:
{Quote hidden}

--
I re-ship for small US & overseas businesses, world-wide.
(For private individuals at cost; ask.)

2000\03\21@083355 by Fansler, David

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Amen to spam being a problem in the US.  We are a small company, and I am
the only network administrator - so going on vacation can be interesting.  A
couple of years ago while at the beach for the week, our email server got
hit, through a now closed opening.  Over the next 3 days I got over 14,000
error messages of spam that did not make it to a valid recipient.  Do you
have any idea how long it takes to download that many email messages via a
28.8 modem connection!  Fortunately I got UUNET to stop the spam, and then I
closed the hole in the email server.  I still have people trying to pass
through here, but they do not get anywhere now.

While not wishing a life threaten illness on anyone, the experience my wife
and I have shared over the past 2 years has sure changed our perspective of
the world, life, and what is important.  And while the almighty dollar
(rubel, yen, frank, etc.) can not be done away with altogether - it sure is
not as important as it once was to us

David V. Fansler
Network Administrator
TriPath Imaging, Inc. (Formerly AutoCyte, Inc)
336-222-9707 Ext. 261
EraseMEdfanslerspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTautocyte.com <dfanslerspamspam_OUTautocyte.com>
Now Showing! http://www.mindspring.com/~dfansler
<http://www.mindspring.com/~dfansler>
Updated February 7,2000
Ann's Cancer & David's Observatory


               {Original Message removed}

2000\03\21@115126 by Harold M Hallikainen

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So... did your ISP get rid of the spammer?

Harold


FCC Rules Online at http://hallikainen.com/FccRules
Lighting control for theatre and television at http://www.dovesystems.com

________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
dl.http://www.juno.com/get/tagj.

2000\03\21@115133 by Harold M Hallikainen

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       Interesting info on MAPS RBL! It seems that someone somewhere would have
a script running that we could all just forward our spam to. On receiving
some high number of copies (thus indicating it is indeed spam), it would
take apart the headers, notify the appropriate abuse@ people, then
finally dump them onto the RBL list. Anything like that exist? I'm
getting tired of taking apart headers!

Harold


FCC Rules Online at http://hallikainen.com/FccRules
Lighting control for theatre and television at http://www.dovesystems.com

________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
dl.http://www.juno.com/get/tagj.

2000\03\21@115950 by jamesnewton

face picon face
www.spamcop.com

---
James Newton @spam@jamesnewtonKILLspamspamgeocities.com 1-619-652-0593
http://techref.massmind.org NEW! FINALLY A REAL NAME!
Members can add private/public comments/pages ($0 TANSTAAFL web hosting)


>{Original Message removed}

2000\03\21@120624 by andy howard

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>         Interesting info on MAPS RBL! It seems that someone somewhere
would have
> a script running that we could all just forward our spam to. On
receiving
> some high number of copies (thus indicating it is indeed spam), it
would
> take apart the headers, notify the appropriate abuse@ people, then
> finally dump them onto the RBL list. Anything like that exist? I'm
> getting tired of taking apart headers!


Have a look at http://www.spamcop.com. That's the best one I've found so far.

2000\03\21@122120 by Harold M Hallikainen

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On Tue, 21 Mar 2000 08:57:43 -0800 James Newton <KILLspamjamesnewtonKILLspamspamPICLIST.COM>
writes:
> http://www.spamcop.com
>
>


       Is that a good URL? I'm getting server not found messages.

Harold


FCC Rules Online at http://hallikainen.com/FccRules
Lighting control for theatre and television at http://www.dovesystems.com

________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
dl.http://www.juno.com/get/tagj.

2000\03\21@122935 by jamesnewton

face picon face
Ah damn! its
http://www.spamcop.net

---
James Newton RemoveMEjamesnewtonTakeThisOuTspamgeocities.com 1-619-652-0593
http://techref.massmind.org NEW! FINALLY A REAL NAME!
Members can add private/public comments/pages ($0 TANSTAAFL web hosting)


{Original Message removed}

2000\03\21@123807 by William Chops Westfield

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   Suffice to say that one of the mail servers at prowebsite.com had been
   blocked by this company mail-abuse.org because one of the many domains
   on this server was giving out spam.

Yeah, I suspect that we're not too far from the point where all "ISPs"
that lack a strong and explicit anti-spam policy will end up being
blocked.  There doesn't seem to be another way.

BillW

2000\03\21@141323 by Mark Willis

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SpamCop has tended in the past to report false positives, from what I
read on NANAE (news.admin.net-abuse.email), a newsgroup dedicated to
tracking SPAMmers etc.  I use the tools at http://samspade.org/, those
work rather well.  You do have to learn how to read headers somewhat -
if you can read PIC assembler or C, you can do that <G>  10 hours will
do ya.

I tend to comment on SPAM to the spammers' ISP, the admins of any relay
abused to spew their tripe, the web site provider, the Spam Recycling
center <spamBeGonespamrecyclespamBeGonespamChooseYourMail.com>, the upstreams of their ISP's
(and in some cases where I keep seeing SPAM from some joker, their
upstreams' upstream, as Spammers have been known to do "Shell" ISP's
within ISP's so you're complaining to that SPAMmer...)

Also, I use the Abuse Forwarding service from abuse.net, really handy,
and report these to my ISP so they can filter 'em out.

I post to the WA ATG office as well, on those which break WA State law.

(Some idjit judge decided recently that the WA state law is
unconstitutional - that being honest on your headers, is too hard of a
restriction on interstate commerce - I expect THAT to be appealed and
the joker who got that judge fooled, to lose.  How hard of a burden is
it to be honest?  YEESH!  Insanity.)

 Mark

James Newton wrote:
> Ah damn! its
> http://www.spamcop.net
>
> ---
> James Newton TakeThisOuTjamesnewtonEraseMEspamspam_OUTgeocities.com 1-619-652-0593
> http://techref.massmind.org NEW! FINALLY A REAL NAME!
> Members can add private/public comments/pages ($0 TANSTAAFL web hosting)
>
> {Original Message removed}

2000\03\21@162817 by briang

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In-Reply-To: <CMM.0.90.4.953660181.billw@flipper>

> Yeah, I suspect that we're not too far from the point where all "ISPs"
> that lack a strong and explicit anti-spam policy will end up being
> blocked.  There doesn't seem to be another way.

It's not just the ISPs without a strong anti-spam policy that get blocked
it's also the ones with a strong anti-spam policy.

I know two ISPs so far which just throw away or bounce all messages marked
as from RemoveMEanynamespamTakeThisOuTbigfoot.com but it's actually impossible to send any email
via bigfoot let alone send spam.

Brian Gregory.
briangEraseMEspam.....cix.co.uk
Also EraseMEbdg2spambigfoot.com

2000\03\21@194404 by Brandon, Tom

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Ah, great, next they'll say actually sending goods is "a restriction on
interstate commerce", certainly makes it a lot harder if you ask me. But if
they don't go one way they go the other. Here in Australia we nearly had
laws making ISPs legally responsible for all information passing through
their networks (i.e. if your users look at illegal content it's your fault
for not stopping it - yeah right). And in our schools you can't view view
the cancer council pages cause they say breast.

As with all internet abuse it's a bit of a catch 22. You can't stop internet
abuse without killing the internet basically. The whole reason the internet
took of like it did is because as a wholeit's unmoderated and uncontrolled.
There is no standard (there are standards but they are all optional, nothing
forces you to support HTTP 1.1 (except market demand)). Hence, abuse is
almost unstoppable. You can't stop someone using a fake IP\email address
cause that would require a centralised system. And if the internet were
centralised it would simply fall over.

So all we can do is try and minimise the damage and hope one day the
population will get intelligent enough that they won't think pointless
vandalism is such fun.

Tom.
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Willis [RemoveMEmwillisEraseMEspamEraseMEFOXINTERNET.NET]
Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2000 6:12 AM
To: RemoveMEPICLISTspam_OUTspamKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: Blocked email


(Some idjit judge decided recently that the WA state law is
unconstitutional - that being honest on your headers, is too hard of a
restriction on interstate commerce - I expect THAT to be appealed and
the joker who got that judge fooled, to lose.  How hard of a burden is
it to be honest?  YEESH!  Insanity.)

 Mark

2000\03\22@140321 by Mark Willis

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Also:  how do you tell the difference between a SPAMmer posting as if
they're from some other address, and my posting from one account but
using another of my personal accounts as my "From" account, so I'll get
replies at my main ISP account (as wanted) instead of at a less-used
address?

There are some good things about having the capability of spoofing your
address, I've been able to "borrow" a friends identity to let him send
e-mail from here, to unsub off a mailing list he wanted off (his home
machine fried it's momboard, he would've overflowed his inbox before the
machine was fixed), capability gives you the ability to do good, as well
as do abusive crud.  Same as with a PIC or any other tool, o'course
<VBG>

 Mark

Brandon, Tom wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> {Original Message removed}

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