Post by thread:4004 on PIC?

Does anyone know if there exists an Intel 4004 emulator for a PIC MCU? (Preferably 16F84). If not, where could I get a databook on the 4004? I am interested in building a pin compatible emulated 4004, using the PIC (Using a 16 pin socket and a small PCB with an SMD PIC, clock components and voltage conversion circuitry). I don't have any practical application in mind, I just think it would be an interesting project to emulate the first Microprocessor with a PIC, then builda working computer around it. Also, where could I get a 4004? If I am to build an emulator, I would need to know that once it is built, it behaves exactly like the real thing. I think that the 74f184 would have enough pins to emulate all the signals used and created by a 4004 -- The pinout of the 4004 is as follows: _______ _______ _| \__/ |_ <--> D0 |_|1 16|_| RAM0 --> _| |_ <--> D1 |_|2 15|_| RAM1 --> _| |_ <--> D2 |_|3 14|_| RAM2 --> _| |_ <--> D3 |_|4 13|_| RAM3 --> _| 4004 |_ (+5v) Vss |_|5 12|_| Vdd (-10v) _| |_ --> CLK1 |_|6 11|_| ROM --> _| |_ --> CLK2 |_|7 10|_| TST <-- _| |_ <-- SYNC |_|8 9|_| RST <-- |__________________| Meaning that if I ignore the Vss and Vdd lines, I have to deal with 14 I/0 lines., which I'd have to fit into PIC's 13. I could maybe lose 1 of the clock lines, but I have no idea what they do (Why is there 2? Is this like the PICs where only a few external components are required to create an oscillator?) I couldn't use the clock lines to directly drive the PIC, because some of the CISC instructions might need a few RISC instructions to execute. I have a 4004 instruction list, and it looks like it would be an easy thing to emulate. The tough part would be to have emulate all the output signals with proper timing. At what speed did the 4004 run? I imagine a 16F84 at 10 MHz would be adequate enough to emulate any Microprocessor created in 1971. If anyone could provide me with information as to what all the pins mean or where I could get a databook, It would be greatly appreciated :) - Keelan Lightfoot

I have both a 4004 and a 8008 - but I would not let them go for - well let's say it would take a lot to make me give them up! )-: One of them is in an Intel development board, the other in a product - I do not remember which is which. Unfortunately, I do not have any documentation on either chip. Good luck on your quest. David V. Fansler Network Administrator AutoCyte, Inc. 336-222-9707 Ext. 261 spam_OUTdfanslerTakeThisOuTautocyte.com Now Showing! http://www.mindspring.com\~dfansler\ Updated July 13, 1999 {Original Message removed}

But how would you make it run slow enough ? :-) I've BCC'd this to someone who MAY be able to help (he used an 8008 in Masters thesis long ago). RM ____ ___________________________________ What can one man do? Help the hungry for free at http://www.thehungersite.com/ {Original Message removed}

<BLOCKQUOTE AUTHOR="David Fansler">I have both a 4004 and a 8008 - but I would not let them go</BLOCKQUOTE> Can't blame you for not wanting to turn the chips loose, that's a real part of history. How about taking a pic or so and putting them up on your web site? I can help with scanning or posting if needed. It would be a kick to see a picture of whatever these things got put in. James Newton, webmaster http://get.to/techref (hint: you can add your own private info to the techref) .....jamesnewtonKILLspam@spam@geocities.com 1-619-652-0593 phone {Original Message removed}

What would be really nice, is some kind of logic definition file, to put in a programmable cirquit! The we can blow us a "real" 4004 ! (except voltage, current, and speed are nicer) Maybe ask Intel kindly? They would win goodwill on letting this piece free to play with :) Regards /Morgan Morgans Reglerteknik, HŠllekŒs, 277 35 KIVIK, SWEDEN tel +46(0)414-446620, fax -70331, mrtKILLspaminame.com

David V. Fansler wrote: >I have both a 4004 and a 8008 - but I would not let them go for - well let's >say it would take a lot to make me give them up! )-: One of them is in an >Intel development board, the other in a product - I do not remember which is >which. Unfortunately, I do not have any documentation on either chip. I wouldn't expect you to part with such treasure! :) I was hoping that someone may have a few (haha!) lying around, or knew of a place that still has a few of these in stock :) (haha again :) I'll try to contact Intel, and see if they have any documentation lying around. Maybe Paul Allen or Bill Gates have a few spares of of the 8008 that they'd lend me (LOL!!). - Keelan Lightfoot James Newton Wrote: >... It would be a kick to >see a picture of whatever these things got put in. They are pretty entertaining packages. Have a look at: http://ssd.comcen-1.nsk.su/microprocessor/chiplist/cl.2.2.html You can see the inside and outside of the 4004.

My first class in microprocessors included stuff on the 4004 and 8008. I don't recall if the 8080 was out yet. I remember a HUGE poster on the wall that showed the circuitry around the 4004 that was used to get it to do anything. This was mid 1970's. Harold Harold Hallikainen .....haroldKILLspam.....hallikainen.com Hallikainen & Friends, Inc. See the FCC Rules at http://hallikainen.com/FccRules and comments filed in LPFM proceeding at http://hallikainen.com/lpfm ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: dl.http://www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

> Does anyone know if there exists an Intel 4004 emulator for > a PIC MCU? I hope you don't want gto emulate the signal levels from a 4004, because those were not TTL. When I was a teen I uses to fall asleep over the uP descriptions in AdamOsborne's books. I might still have a xerox of the 4004 pages around somewhere, so of you don't find anything I'll start digging. Wouter

I started searching around and found a few interesting 4004-related pages: Paul Pierce has a collection of old computer stuff, and he's put up some GIFs of scanned pages from late-year (c. 1975) 4004 data sheets: http://www.piercefuller.com/collect/i4004/ On Intel's 25th Anniversary of the Microprocessor pages, there's a picture of the 4004 die: http://www.intel.com/intel/museum/25anniv/hof/4004.htm In the Washington Apple Pi Infrequently Asked Questions pages, there's a very nice photograph of a 4004 package: http://www.wap.org/ifaq/posters/intel4004.html I'll follow up if I find any more, but the piercefuller GIFs is probably as good as is likely to be found, unless someone on this list has an earlier data sheet that can be scanned... --Bob On Tue, Sep 21, 1999 at 12:11:37PM -0400, Harold M Hallikainen wrote: {Quote hidden}> My first class in microprocessors included stuff on the 4004 and > 8008. I don't recall if the 8080 was out yet. I remember a HUGE poster > on the wall that showed the circuitry around the 4004 that was used to > get it to do anything. This was mid 1970's. > > Harold > > > > Harold Hallikainen > EraseMEharoldspam_OUTTakeThisOuThallikainen.com > Hallikainen & Friends, Inc. > See the FCC Rules at http://hallikainen.com/FccRules and comments filed > in LPFM proceeding at http://hallikainen.com/lpfm > > ___________________________________________________________________ > Get the Internet just the way you want it. > Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! > Try Juno Web: dl.http://www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. -- ============================================================ Bob Drzyzgula It's not a problem bobspam_OUTdrzyzgula.org until something bad happens ============================================================ http://www.drzyzgula.org/bob/electronics/ ============================================================

A few more links follow, FWIW... At the "Code Archive" at http://www.code.archive.aisnota.com/, there is a downloadable file called "i4004.zip". This file contains, among other things, an assembler and a disassembler for the 4004 written in Forth (cool!). Requires FPC. There's a much nicer die photograph on Florida State University's photomicrography page Http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/chipshots/intel/i4004lrg.html The text from a new product announcement can be found in John Bayko's "Great Microprocessors of the Past and Present (V 11.4.3)" at http://www.cs.uregina.ca/~bayko/cpu.html, excerpted below. There is an interview with Fredrico Faggin (4004 architect) at www.stanford.edu/group/mmdd/SiliconValley/SiliconGenesis/FedericoFaggin/F aggin.html that has some discussion of the 4004. (There's several other fascinating interviews at that site as well; browse to http://www.stanford.edu/group/mmdd/SiliconValley/SiliconGenesis/) The computer museum run by the University of Amsterdam (NL) claims to have 1973 documentation for an i4004 system: http://www.wins.uva.nl/faculteit/museum/documentation/ BTW, Totally unrelated except that I found it during this search, is the documentation for the Apollo flight computer, one copy of which can be found at: ftp://ccii.dockside.co.za/pub/apollo --Bob -- ============================================================ Bob Drzyzgula It's not a problem @spam@bobKILLspamdrzyzgula.org until something bad happens ============================================================ http://www.drzyzgula.org/bob/electronics/ ============================================================ ------------------------------------------------------------ (From http://www.cs.uregina.ca/~bayko/cpu.html) ------------------------------------------------------------ NEW PRODUCTS FEATURE PRODUCT COMPUTER ON A CHIP Intel has introduced an integrated CPU complete with a 4-bit parallel adder, sixteen 4-bit registers, an accumula- tor and a push-down stack on one chip. It's one of a family of four new ICs which comprise the MCS-4 micro computer system--the first system to bring the power and flexibility of a dedicated general-purpose computer at low cost in as few as two dual in-line packages. MSC-4 systems provide complete computing and con- trol functions for test systems, data terminals, billing machines, measuring systems, numeric control systems and process control systems. The heart of any MSC-4 system is a Type 4004 CPU, which includes a set of 45 instructions. Adding one or more Type 4001 ROMs for program storage and data tables gives a fully functioning micro-programmed com- puter. Add Type 4002 RAMs for read-write memory and Type 4003 registers to expand the output ports. Using no circuitry other than ICs from this family of four, a system with 4096 8-bit bytes of ROM storage and 5120 bits of RAM storage can be created. For rapid turn-around or only a few systems, Intel's erasable and re-programmable ROM, Type 1701, may be substituted for the Type 4001 mask-programmed ROM. MCS-4 systems interface easily with switches, key- boards, displays, teletypewriters, printers, readers, A-D converters and other popular peripherals. For further information, circle the reader service card 87 or call Intel at (408) 246-7501. Circle 87 on Reader Service Card COMPUTER/JANUARY/FEBRUARY 1972/71 ------------------------------------------------------------

>I hope you don't want gto emulate the signal levels from a 4004, >because those were not TTL. When I was a teen I uses to fall >asleep over the uP descriptions in AdamOsborne's books. >I might still have a xerox of the 4004 pages around somewhere, so >of you don't find anything I'll start digging. That is why I am planning on using a small vertical PCB with the PIC on it, along with a few transistors & related components to drive the -15v outputs (?) that it looks like the 4004 used. This verticle PCB would then be point-to-point soldered into a 16 pin socket. I'll see if Paul Pierce has the databook first, so that you don't have to go digging :) - Keelan Lightfoot

Two years ago on Intel's anniversary we all got small clocks with an actual 4004 die on the face of the clock... one of our fab's ran a last couple of batches of 4004 for the anniversary. As far as i know the die should be functional, though i doubt it has been tested at sort ;-) if you find enough information and some probes, i might find my clock and we could run the device... maybe someone could supply the 4001, 2, and 3 and some asm code to do TCP/IP and we could do the world's smallest AND oldest web server! regards Pat {Original Message removed}