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'4004 on PIC?'
1999\09\20@115501 by Keelan Lightfoot

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Does anyone know if there exists an Intel 4004 emulator for a PIC MCU?
(Preferably 16F84). If not, where could I get a databook on the 4004? I am
interested in building a pin compatible emulated 4004, using the PIC (Using
a 16 pin socket and a small PCB with an SMD PIC, clock components and
voltage conversion circuitry). I don't have any practical application in
mind, I just think it would be an interesting project to emulate the first
Microprocessor with a PIC, then builda working computer around it.

Also, where could I get a 4004? If I am to build an emulator, I would need
to know that once it is built, it behaves exactly like the real thing.

I think that the 74f184 would have enough pins to emulate all the signals
used and created by a 4004 -- The pinout of the 4004 is as follows:

            _______    _______
          _|       \__/       |_
 <--> D0 |_|1               16|_| RAM0 -->
          _|                  |_
 <--> D1 |_|2               15|_| RAM1 -->
          _|                  |_
 <--> D2 |_|3               14|_| RAM2 -->
          _|                  |_
 <--> D3 |_|4               13|_| RAM3 -->
          _|       4004       |_
(+5v) Vss |_|5               12|_| Vdd (-10v)
          _|                  |_
--> CLK1 |_|6               11|_| ROM  -->
          _|                  |_
--> CLK2 |_|7               10|_| TST <--
          _|                  |_
<-- SYNC |_|8                9|_| RST <--
           |__________________|

Meaning that if I ignore the Vss and Vdd lines, I have to deal with 14 I/0
lines., which I'd have to fit into PIC's 13. I could maybe lose 1 of the
clock lines, but I have no idea what they do (Why is there 2? Is this like
the PICs where only a few external components are required to create an
oscillator?) I couldn't use the clock lines to directly drive the PIC,
because some of the CISC instructions might need a few RISC instructions to
execute.

I have a 4004 instruction list, and it looks like it would be an easy thing
to emulate. The tough part would be to have emulate all the output signals
with proper timing.

At what speed did the 4004 run? I imagine a 16F84 at 10 MHz would be
adequate enough to emulate any Microprocessor created in 1971.

If anyone could provide me with information as to what all the pins mean or
where I could get a databook, It would be greatly appreciated :)

- Keelan Lightfoot

1999\09\20@225320 by Fansler, David

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I have both a 4004 and a 8008 - but I would not let them go for - well let's
say it would take a lot to make me give them up! )-:  One of them is in an
Intel development board, the other in a product - I do not remember which is
which.  Unfortunately, I do not have any documentation on either chip.

Good luck on your quest.

David V. Fansler
Network Administrator
AutoCyte, Inc.
336-222-9707 Ext. 261
spam_OUTdfanslerTakeThisOuTspamautocyte.com
Now Showing! http://www.mindspring.com\~dfansler\  Updated July 13, 1999


               {Original Message removed}

1999\09\21@051944 by Russell McMahon

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But how would you make it run slow enough ? :-)

I've BCC'd this to someone who MAY be able to help (he used an  8008 in
Masters thesis long ago).

       RM
____

___________________________________
What can one man do?  Help the hungry for free at
http://www.thehungersite.com/

{Original Message removed}

1999\09\21@100514 by eplus1

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<BLOCKQUOTE AUTHOR="David Fansler">I have both a 4004 and a 8008 - but I
would not let them go</BLOCKQUOTE>

Can't blame you for not wanting to turn the chips loose, that's a real part
of history. How about taking a pic or so and putting them up on your web
site? I can help with scanning or posting if needed. It would be a kick to
see a picture of whatever these things got put in.

James Newton, webmaster http://get.to/techref
(hint: you can add your own private info to the techref)
.....jamesnewtonKILLspamspam@spam@geocities.com
1-619-652-0593 phone



{Original Message removed}

1999\09\21@111543 by Morgan Olsson
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What would be really nice, is some kind of logic definition file, to put in a programmable cirquit!

The we can blow us a "real" 4004 !

(except voltage, current, and speed are nicer)

Maybe ask Intel kindly?
They would win goodwill on letting this piece free to play with :)

Regards
/Morgan
Morgans Reglerteknik, HŠllekŒs, 277 35 KIVIK, SWEDEN
  tel +46(0)414-446620, fax -70331,   mrtspamKILLspaminame.com

1999\09\21@113132 by Keelan Lightfoot

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David V. Fansler wrote:

>I have both a 4004 and a 8008 - but I would not let them go for - well let's
>say it would take a lot to make me give them up! )-:  One of them is in an
>Intel development board, the other in a product - I do not remember which is
>which.  Unfortunately, I do not have any documentation on either chip.

I wouldn't expect you to part with such treasure! :) I was hoping that
someone may have a few (haha!) lying around, or knew of a place that still
has a few of these in stock :) (haha again :) I'll try to contact Intel, and
see if they have any documentation lying around. Maybe Paul Allen or Bill
Gates have a few spares of of the 8008 that they'd lend me (LOL!!).

- Keelan Lightfoot


James Newton Wrote:

>... It would be a kick to
>see a picture of whatever these things got put in.

They are pretty entertaining packages. Have a look at:

http://ssd.comcen-1.nsk.su/microprocessor/chiplist/cl.2.2.html

You can see the inside and outside of the 4004.

1999\09\21@121428 by Harold M Hallikainen

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       My first class in microprocessors included stuff on the 4004 and
8008.  I don't recall if the 8080 was out yet.  I remember a HUGE poster
on the wall that showed the circuitry around the 4004 that was used to
get it to do anything.  This was mid 1970's.

Harold



Harold Hallikainen
.....haroldKILLspamspam.....hallikainen.com
Hallikainen & Friends, Inc.
See the FCC Rules at http://hallikainen.com/FccRules and comments filed
in LPFM proceeding at http://hallikainen.com/lpfm

___________________________________________________________________
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1999\09\21@124344 by w. v. ooijen / f. hanneman

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>  Does anyone know if there exists an Intel 4004 emulator for
> a PIC MCU?

I hope you don't want gto emulate the signal levels from a 4004,
because those were not TTL. When I was a teen I uses to fall
asleep over the uP descriptions in AdamOsborne's books.
I might still have a xerox of the 4004 pages around somewhere, so
of you don't find anything I'll start digging.

Wouter

1999\09\21@130927 by Bob Drzyzgula

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I started searching around and found a few interesting
4004-related pages:

Paul Pierce has a collection of old computer stuff,
and he's put up some GIFs of scanned pages from
late-year (c. 1975) 4004 data sheets:

http://www.piercefuller.com/collect/i4004/

On Intel's 25th Anniversary of the Microprocessor
pages, there's a picture of the 4004 die:

http://www.intel.com/intel/museum/25anniv/hof/4004.htm

In the Washington Apple Pi Infrequently Asked
Questions pages, there's a very nice photograph
of a 4004 package:

http://www.wap.org/ifaq/posters/intel4004.html

I'll follow up if I find any more, but the piercefuller
GIFs is probably as good as is likely to be found,
unless someone on this list has an earlier data sheet
that can be scanned...

--Bob

On Tue, Sep 21, 1999 at 12:11:37PM -0400, Harold M Hallikainen wrote:
{Quote hidden}

--
============================================================
Bob Drzyzgula                             It's not a problem
bobspamspam_OUTdrzyzgula.org                until something bad happens
============================================================
       http://www.drzyzgula.org/bob/electronics/
============================================================

1999\09\21@140024 by Bob Drzyzgula

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A few more links follow, FWIW...

At the "Code Archive" at http://www.code.archive.aisnota.com/,
there is a downloadable file called "i4004.zip". This
file contains, among other things, an assembler and a
disassembler for the 4004 written in Forth (cool!). Requires
FPC.

There's a much nicer die photograph on Florida State
University's photomicrography page
Http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/chipshots/intel/i4004lrg.html

The text from a new product announcement can be found
in John Bayko's "Great Microprocessors of the Past and Present
(V 11.4.3)" at http://www.cs.uregina.ca/~bayko/cpu.html,
excerpted below.

There is an interview with Fredrico Faggin (4004 architect) at
www.stanford.edu/group/mmdd/SiliconValley/SiliconGenesis/FedericoFaggin/F
aggin.html
that has some discussion of the 4004. (There's several
other fascinating interviews at that site as well; browse
to http://www.stanford.edu/group/mmdd/SiliconValley/SiliconGenesis/)

The computer museum run by the University of Amsterdam
(NL) claims to have 1973 documentation for an i4004 system:
http://www.wins.uva.nl/faculteit/museum/documentation/

BTW, Totally unrelated except that I found it during this
search, is the documentation for the Apollo flight
computer, one copy of which can be found at:
ftp://ccii.dockside.co.za/pub/apollo

--Bob

--
============================================================
Bob Drzyzgula                             It's not a problem
@spam@bobKILLspamspamdrzyzgula.org                until something bad happens
============================================================
       http://www.drzyzgula.org/bob/electronics/
============================================================
------------------------------------------------------------
(From http://www.cs.uregina.ca/~bayko/cpu.html)
------------------------------------------------------------
NEW
PRODUCTS

FEATURE PRODUCT

COMPUTER ON A CHIP

  Intel  has  introduced  an  integrated  CPU  complete with
a 4-bit parallel adder, sixteen 4-bit registers, an accumula-
tor  and  a  push-down  stack  on  one  chip.  It's  one of a
family  of  four  new  ICs  which  comprise  the  MCS-4 micro
computer  system--the  first  system  to  bring the power and
flexibility  of  a  dedicated general-purpose computer at low
cost in as few as two dual in-line packages.
   MSC-4   systems   provide  complete  computing  and  con-
trol  functions  for  test  systems,  data terminals, billing
machines,   measuring   systems,   numeric   control  systems
and process control systems.
   The  heart  of  any  MSC-4  system  is  a  Type 4004 CPU,
which includes  a  set  of  45  instructions.  Adding  one or
more   Type   4001   ROMs   for   program  storage  and  data
tables   gives  a  fully  functioning  micro-programmed  com-
puter.   Add   Type  4002  RAMs  for  read-write  memory  and
Type 4003 registers to expand the output ports.
  Using  no  circuitry  other  than  ICs from this family of
four,  a  system  with  4096  8-bit  bytes of ROM storage and
5120   bits   of  RAM  storage  can  be  created.  For  rapid
turn-around  or  only  a  few  systems,  Intel's erasable and
re-programmable   ROM,   Type   1701,   may   be  substituted
for the Type 4001 mask-programmed ROM.
   MCS-4   systems  interface  easily  with  switches,  key-
boards,  displays,  teletypewriters,  printers,  readers, A-D
converters   and  other  popular  peripherals.   For  further
information,  circle the reader service card 87 or call Intel
at (408) 246-7501.
             Circle 87 on Reader Service Card

           COMPUTER/JANUARY/FEBRUARY 1972/71
------------------------------------------------------------

1999\09\21@140650 by Keelan Lightfoot

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>I hope you don't want gto emulate the signal levels from a 4004,
>because those were not TTL. When I was a teen I uses to fall
>asleep over the uP descriptions in AdamOsborne's books.
>I might still have a xerox of the 4004 pages around somewhere, so
>of you don't find anything I'll start digging.

That is why I am planning on using a small vertical PCB with the  PIC on it,
along with a few transistors & related components to drive the -15v outputs
(?) that it looks like the 4004 used. This verticle PCB would then be
point-to-point soldered into a 16 pin socket.

I'll see if Paul Pierce has the databook first, so that you don't have to go
digging :)

- Keelan Lightfoot

1999\09\21@142306 by Opdahl, Patrick G

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Two years ago on Intel's anniversary we all got small clocks with an actual
4004 die on the face of the clock... one of our fab's ran a last couple of
batches of 4004 for the anniversary.  As far as i know the die should be
functional, though i doubt it has been tested at sort ;-)

if you find enough information and some probes, i might find my clock and we
could run the device...

maybe someone could supply the 4001, 2, and 3 and some asm code to do TCP/IP
and we could do the world's smallest AND oldest web server!

regards
Pat

{Original Message removed}

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