Post by thread:] Inside wiring

>From: "Robert B." <spam_OUTpiclistTakeThisOuTNERDULATOR.NET> >> Fortunately, since you are doing your own work on your own privately owned >> property, codes need not apply (at least in the USA). > >** THIS IS GENERALLY NOT TRUE ** I don´t believe that is true in any civilised part of the world, as bad work not risk own property only, but also people that happen to be there (fire, shock) and neighbourhood (fire). Also insurance companies must definitely care. Here in sweden we may change existing wall mounted switches and connectors, and loose wiring. Earlier we could also do electricians work if he inspected it, but that has been canceled i think. (How can he kow all joints are good done, stripped wire, screw torsion, etc) Strange though: I may design and build lethal electrical machinery that handle lots of power and then put it in an extising power outlet, but i may not do wiring in the house. But don´t trust any electrician, one local have lost his right to do work as he did not do thoings correct, another have done dangerous wiring in my house i had to correct :/ (I found some instances of single insulation wire pressed hard flat between light armatures and wooden ceiling!) Anyways good to inspect wiring periodically, my grandmother had huge power drops and i found that in 50 yr old connection pints wire had loosened and became very hot, if it had been modern plastic there might have been fire, but theese old ceramic connection boxes really is good. /Morgan -- Morgan Olsson, Kivik, Sweden -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList .....piclist-unsubscribe-requestKILLspam@spam@mitvma.mit.edu

This is an interesting discussion in light of a tragedy yesterday in a town near Salt Lake City. A 18 year guy moved away from home and was moving into an apartment. He crawled behind his dryer to plug it in to the 240 outlet. He was electrocuted and his roommate found his body. Upon inspection they found that the apartment owner had done his own electrical work and accidentally reversed the wiring so that the dryer ground was energized and he probably touched it and was in a tight area between the dryer and the wall. This is a sad reality of what happens when people without a clue attempt to do their own wiring. A number of the electricians I work with have similar stories to share. We sometimes get so used to working around electricity that we forget how lethal and devoid of mercy it is. When I was in high school I designed a simple disolve unit for my dad's 35mm slide projector. I did't about floating ground and the hot side and neutral side. So I ended up with the chassis of the projector at 120 VAC and my dad was the one who found this out as he was using it one day and ended up completing the circuit between the projector and ground! -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList piclist-unsubscribe-requestKILLspammitvma.mit.edu

<snip> It is not really a matter of power dissipation, but rather voltage drop. 12 guage wire is rated at 20A because it will not heat up enough to be a problem at that current. You can determine the voltage loss seen at the outlet by computing the resistance of 200' of 12 guage wire (remember you have both the hot and the return to deal with) and multiplying it by 20A Bob Ammerman RAm Systems Bob the rule of thumb is 12ga. wire @ 20 amps is good for 50' (100' total circuit footage) This allows for a voltage drop of less than 4 volts which is considered to be the limit between the panel and the farthest outlet, (same applies for drop-cords, so an 8 volt drop is absolute max from panel to load) Lighting circuits 12ga. 20 amps 100' (no drop-cords) The thing most people overlook is that while you can run a 20 amp lighting circuit 100' on 12 ga. wire in a house wiring situation, the same does not work for 12Vdc loads, 8 volts drop means only 4 volts to the load! So for 12Vdc circuits you can only run about 1/10th as much current\distance. -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList .....piclist-unsubscribe-requestKILLspam.....mitvma.mit.edu

In a message dated 8/18/2004 9:59:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time, EraseMEmdredmondspam_OUTTakeThisOuTCHARTER.NET writes: Don't they make little doohickeys that you can plug into an outlet to make sure it's wired right? If so maybe I should get one just to make sure. Yes, you can get one at Wal-Mart, Sears or almost any hardware store. They plug into the outlet and let you know if you have the neutral, ground and hot wires connected correctly. They let you know by colored LEDs or neon lamps. The ones of which I am talking are for 110 to 120 Volts AC and won't work on DC circuits or other AC circutits Randy Abernathy 4626 Old Stilesboro Road NW Acworth, GA 30101-4066 Phone / Fax: 770-974-5295 Cell: 678-772-4113 E-mail: Cnc002spam_OUTaol.com I furnish technical support, repair, and other related services for your industrial woodworking machinery. My background as Senior Service Engineer for the SCMI Group for nearly fifteen years with factory training, combines with my extensive background in electronics, mechanics, pneumatics, electrical and CNC machinery to offer you needed support for your machinery. -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList @spam@piclist-unsubscribe-requestKILLspammitvma.mit.edu

In a message dated 8/18/2004 9:52:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time, KILLspammikecreidKILLspamMSN.COM writes: So I ended up with the chassis of the projector at 120 VAC and my dad was the one who found this out as he was using it one day and ended up completing the circuit between the projector and ground! This is the precise reason we now have polarized 120 Volt AC plugs and receptacles required now. I can remember when this was NOT the case and there were no ground wires pulled to the individual receptacles nor did the plugs have a ground lug on them. If you just reversed the plug in the receptacle, oops you had the hot side going to the chassis of the appliance/device. For some years, appliances connected the neutral side of the plug directly to the appliance chassis using this two wire connection and with no polarized plugs or receptacles it was very easy to end up with a hot chassis. At the time, the thinking seemed to be that 120 Volts would "sting" but not likely kill. As we all know, that is not the case especially if a person has a weak heart, etc. Randy Abernathy 4626 Old Stilesboro Road NW Acworth, GA 30101-4066 Phone / Fax: 770-974-5295 Cell: 678-772-4113 E-mail: RemoveMECnc002TakeThisOuTaol.com I furnish technical support, repair, and other related services for your industrial woodworking machinery. My background as Senior Service Engineer for the SCMI Group for nearly fifteen years with factory training, combines with my extensive background in electronics, mechanics, pneumatics, electrical and CNC machinery to offer you needed support for your machinery. -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList spamBeGonepiclist-unsubscribe-requestspamBeGonemitvma.mit.edu

Anyone remember the Allied Electronics Knight Kit Broadcaster? This was a little AM transmitter. It cost $12.95 in kit form when I bought it (late 1950s). It had a blue steel chassis and used two 50C5 tubes (one as an oscillator that was modulated by varying the plate voltage) and the other as a modulator/power amp. It had a 12AX7 as an audio preamp. Anyway, the on/off switch was between neutral and chassis. So, with the plug in the wall one way, the chassis was hot when the unit was on. With the plug in the other way, the chassis was hot (through the filaments) with the power off. As a kid, I figured the thing would get out farther if I grounded the chassis. I dragged a wire out to a cold water pipe. Big spark and all the lights in that end of the house went out... Harold {Quote hidden}> In a message dated 8/18/2004 9:52:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > TakeThisOuTmikecreidEraseMEspam_OUTMSN.COM writes: > > So I ended up with the chassis of the projector at 120 > VAC and my dad was the one who found this out as he was using it one day > and ended up completing the circuit between the projector and ground! > > > > This is the precise reason we now have polarized 120 Volt AC plugs and > receptacles required now. I can remember when this was NOT the case and > there > were no ground wires pulled to the individual receptacles nor did the > plugs have > a ground lug on them. If you just reversed the plug in the receptacle, > oops > you had the hot side going to the chassis of the appliance/device. For > some > years, appliances connected the neutral side of the plug directly to the > appliance chassis using this two wire connection and with no polarized > plugs or > receptacles it was very easy to end up with a hot chassis. At the time, > the > thinking seemed to be that 120 Volts would "sting" but not likely kill. > As > we all know, that is not the case especially if a person has a weak > heart, etc. > -- FCC Rules Online at http://www.hallikainen.com -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList RemoveMEpiclist-unsubscribe-requestTakeThisOuTmitvma.mit.edu

In a message dated 8/18/2004 8:40:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time, dlistEraseME.....MORGANSREGLERTEKNIK.SE writes: Fortunately, since you are doing your own work on your own privately owned >> property, codes need not apply (at least in the USA). In what part of the USA do you live? I live in GA, Cobb County and you are NOT allowed to do any wiring on your own property without the proper permits and if you don't get them and allow proper inspection by the county, they can actually have the power company turn off the power to your home, and have done so in many cases that I know of, if the wiring you are doing is connected to the main power in the home. And this is in the U.S.A. Randy Abernathy 4626 Old Stilesboro Road NW Acworth, GA 30101-4066 Phone / Fax: 770-974-5295 Cell: 678-772-4113 E-mail: EraseMECnc002aol.com I furnish technical support, repair, and other related services for your industrial woodworking machinery. My background as Senior Service Engineer for the SCMI Group for nearly fifteen years with factory training, combines with my extensive background in electronics, mechanics, pneumatics, electrical and CNC machinery to offer you needed support for your machinery. -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList RemoveMEpiclist-unsubscribe-requestEraseMEEraseMEmitvma.mit.edu

There are plenty of electricians who also get hot/neutral reversed. That's why I carry around one of those little testers that can test for this, as well as test for GFIs when inspecting power. A fire at a dryer killed a friend of mine's two children and burned up his house. Dryers are great places for fires - plenty of lint everywhere, lots of juice, plenty of heat to dry everything out. Oh Yeah, I have read that 40% of all fires are electrical in origin. The rest are probably either arson, or started when electronics guys go to sleep with a soldering iron in their hand <grin> -- Lawrence Lile, P.E. Electrical and Electronic Solutions Project Solutions Companies http://www.projsolco.com > {Original Message removed}

In a message dated 8/18/2004 12:45:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, RemoveMEllilespam_OUTKILLspamPROJSOLCO.COM writes: There are plenty of electricians who also get hot/neutral reversed. That's why I carry around one of those little testers that can test for this, as well as test for GFIs when inspecting power. A fire at a dryer killed a friend of mine's two children and burned up his house. Dryers are great places for fires - plenty of lint everywhere, lots of juice, plenty of heat to dry everything out. Oh Yeah, I have read that 40% of all fires are electrical in origin. The rest are probably either arson, or started when electronics guys go to sleep with a soldering iron in their hand <grin> Amen !! Randy Abernathy 4626 Old Stilesboro Road NW Acworth, GA 30101-4066 Phone / Fax: 770-974-5295 Cell: 678-772-4113 E-mail: RemoveMECnc002TakeThisOuTspamaol.com I furnish technical support, repair, and other related services for your industrial woodworking machinery. My background as Senior Service Engineer for the SCMI Group for nearly fifteen years with factory training, combines with my extensive background in electronics, mechanics, pneumatics, electrical and CNC machinery to offer you needed support for your machinery. -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList EraseMEpiclist-unsubscribe-requestspamspamBeGonemitvma.mit.edu

His how-to books are extremely useful and practical as well as customized to the jurisdiction they are sold in. If one is too lazy/cheap to buy the NEC/CEC then at least read the faq I referenced and buy McKnight's book. Our inspectors endorse it. <brag on>I've been told by an inspector I do one of the neatest panels he has seen.<off> Dave At 05:25 PM 8/18/04, you wrote: {Quote hidden}>http://www.jsmck.com/index1.html > >Not meant to be an advertisement. :-) > >Many years ago in a past life I helped with a computer upgrade for Sam >McKnight. >I was amazed that someone could make a living investigating electrical fires. >Looks like he's still at it. > >"The effects of electricity on the human body " >As for the bullet item above can we just say "pisses me off". :-p -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList RemoveMEpiclist-unsubscribe-requestKILLspammitvma.mit.edu