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'] Inside wiring - what gauge?'
2004\08\17@222206 by Grimm, Justin

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And in Australia, losses are not to exceed 5%. Which is 240V*5%=12V. I don't know about your area.

{Original Message removed}

2004\08\18@083840 by Morgan Olsson

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>From: "Robert B." <spam_OUTpiclistTakeThisOuTspamNERDULATOR.NET>
>> Fortunately, since you are doing your own work on your own privately owned
>> property, codes need not apply (at least in the USA).
>
>** THIS IS GENERALLY NOT TRUE **

I don´t believe that is true in any civilised part of the world, as bad work not risk own property only, but also people that happen to be there (fire, shock) and neighbourhood (fire).  Also insurance companies must definitely care.

Here in sweden we may change existing wall mounted switches and connectors, and loose wiring.

Earlier we could also do electricians work if he inspected it, but that has been canceled i think.  (How can he kow all joints are good done, stripped wire, screw torsion, etc)

Strange though: I may design and build lethal electrical machinery that handle lots of power and then put it in an extising power outlet, but i may not do wiring in the house.

But don´t trust any electrician, one local have lost his right to do work as he did not do thoings correct, another have done dangerous wiring in my house i had to correct :/  (I found some instances of single insulation wire pressed hard flat between light armatures and wooden ceiling!)

Anyways good to inspect wiring periodically, my grandmother had huge power drops and i found that in 50 yr old connection pints wire had loosened and became very hot, if it had been modern plastic there might have been fire, but theese old ceramic connection boxes really is good.  
/Morgan
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Morgan Olsson, Kivik, Sweden

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2004\08\18@095125 by Mike Reid

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This is an interesting discussion in light of a tragedy yesterday in a
town near Salt Lake City. A 18 year guy moved away from home and was
moving into an apartment. He crawled behind his dryer to plug it in to
the 240 outlet.  He was electrocuted and his roommate found his body.
Upon inspection they found that the apartment owner had done his own
electrical work and accidentally reversed the wiring so that the dryer
ground was energized and he probably touched it and was in a tight area
between the dryer and the wall. This is a sad reality of what happens
when people without a clue attempt to do their own wiring. A number of
the electricians I work with have similar stories to share.

We sometimes get so used to working around electricity that we forget
how lethal and devoid of mercy it is.

When I was in high school I designed a simple disolve unit for my dad's
35mm slide projector.  I did't about floating ground and the hot side
and neutral side. So I ended up with the chassis of the projector at 120
VAC and my dad was the one who found this out as he was using it one day
and ended up completing the circuit between the projector and ground!

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2004\08\18@095746 by Matt Redmond

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Yikes!  I imagine his parents are getting ready to inherit an apartment
complex...

Well I was scrupulously careful that the outlets were wired correctly.

Don't they make little doohickeys that you can plug into an outlet to make
sure it's wired right?  If so maybe I should get one just to make sure.




{Original Message removed}

2004\08\18@103137 by 4HAZ
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<snip>
It is not really a matter of power dissipation, but rather voltage drop. 12
guage wire is rated at 20A because it will not heat up enough to be a
problem at that current. You can determine the voltage loss seen at the
outlet by computing the resistance of 200' of 12 guage wire (remember you
have both the hot and the return to deal with) and multiplying it by 20A

Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems

Bob the rule of thumb is 12ga. wire @ 20 amps is good for 50' (100' total
circuit footage)
This allows for a voltage drop of less than 4 volts which is considered to
be the limit between the panel and the farthest outlet, (same applies for
drop-cords, so an 8 volt drop is absolute max from panel to load)
Lighting circuits 12ga. 20 amps 100' (no drop-cords)

The thing most people overlook is that while you can run a 20 amp lighting
circuit 100' on 12 ga. wire in a house wiring situation, the same does not
work for 12Vdc loads, 8 volts drop means only 4 volts to the load!
So for 12Vdc circuits you can only run about 1/10th as much
current\distance.

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2004\08\18@111951 by Randy Abernathy

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In a message dated 8/18/2004 9:59:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
EraseMEmdredmondspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTCHARTER.NET writes:

Don't  they make little doohickeys that you can plug into an outlet to make
sure  it's wired right?  If so maybe I should get one just to make  sure.



Yes, you can get one at Wal-Mart, Sears or almost any hardware  store.  They
plug into the outlet and let you know if you have the neutral,  ground and hot
wires connected correctly.  They let you know by colored  LEDs or neon lamps.
The ones of which I am talking are for 110 to 120  Volts AC and won't work
on DC circuits or other AC circutits

Randy  Abernathy
4626 Old Stilesboro Road NW
Acworth, GA 30101-4066
Phone /  Fax: 770-974-5295
Cell: 678-772-4113
E-mail: Cnc002spamspam_OUTaol.com

I  furnish technical support, repair, and other related services for your
industrial woodworking machinery. My background as Senior Service Engineer for
the SCMI Group for nearly fifteen years with factory training, combines with
my  extensive background in electronics, mechanics, pneumatics, electrical and
CNC  machinery to offer you needed support for your  machinery.

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2004\08\18@112536 by Randy Abernathy

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In a message dated 8/18/2004 9:52:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
KILLspammikecreidKILLspamspamMSN.COM writes:

So I  ended up with the chassis of the projector at 120
VAC and my dad was the  one who found this out as he was using it one day
and ended up completing  the circuit between the projector and ground!



This is the precise reason we now have polarized 120 Volt AC plugs  and
receptacles required now.  I can remember when this was NOT the case  and there
were no ground wires pulled to the individual receptacles nor did the  plugs have
a ground lug on them.  If you just reversed the plug in the  receptacle, oops
you had the hot side going to the chassis of the  appliance/device.  For some
years, appliances connected the neutral side of  the plug directly to the
appliance chassis using this two wire connection and  with no polarized plugs or
receptacles it was very easy to end up with a hot  chassis.  At the time, the
thinking seemed to be that 120 Volts would  "sting" but not likely kill.  As
we all know, that is not the case  especially if a person has a weak heart, etc.

Randy  Abernathy
4626 Old Stilesboro Road NW
Acworth, GA 30101-4066
Phone /  Fax: 770-974-5295
Cell: 678-772-4113
E-mail: RemoveMECnc002TakeThisOuTspamaol.com

I  furnish technical support, repair, and other related services for your
industrial woodworking machinery. My background as Senior Service Engineer for
the SCMI Group for nearly fifteen years with factory training, combines with
my  extensive background in electronics, mechanics, pneumatics, electrical and
CNC  machinery to offer you needed support for your  machinery.

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2004\08\18@113538 by Harold Hallikainen

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Anyone remember the Allied Electronics Knight Kit Broadcaster? This was a
little AM transmitter. It cost $12.95 in kit form when I bought it (late
1950s). It had a blue steel chassis and used two 50C5 tubes (one as an
oscillator that was modulated by varying the plate voltage) and the other
as a modulator/power amp. It had a 12AX7 as an audio preamp. Anyway, the
on/off switch was between neutral and chassis. So, with the plug in the
wall one way, the chassis was hot when the unit was on. With the plug in
the other way, the chassis was hot (through the filaments) with the power
off. As a kid, I figured the thing would get out farther if I grounded the
chassis. I dragged a wire out to a cold water pipe. Big spark and all the
lights in that end of the house went out...

Harold

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2004\08\18@114158 by Randy Abernathy

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In a message dated 8/18/2004 8:40:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
dlistEraseMEspam.....MORGANSREGLERTEKNIK.SE writes:

Fortunately, since you are doing your own work on your own privately  owned
>> property, codes need not apply (at least in the  USA).



In what part of the USA do you live?  I live in GA, Cobb  County and you are
NOT allowed to do any wiring on your own property without the  proper permits
and if you don't get them and allow proper inspection by the  county, they can
actually have the power company turn off the power to your  home, and have
done so in many cases that I know of, if the wiring you are doing  is connected
to the main power in the home.  And this is in the  U.S.A.

Randy  Abernathy
4626 Old Stilesboro Road NW
Acworth, GA 30101-4066
Phone /  Fax: 770-974-5295
Cell: 678-772-4113
E-mail: EraseMECnc002spamaol.com

I  furnish technical support, repair, and other related services for your
industrial woodworking machinery. My background as Senior Service Engineer for
the SCMI Group for nearly fifteen years with factory training, combines with
my  extensive background in electronics, mechanics, pneumatics, electrical and
CNC  machinery to offer you needed support for your  machinery.

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2004\08\18@124312 by Lawrence Lile

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There are plenty of electricians who also get hot/neutral reversed.  That's why I carry around one of those little testers that can test for this, as well as test for GFIs when inspecting power.  
A fire at a dryer killed a friend of mine's two children and burned up his house.  Dryers are great places for fires - plenty of lint everywhere, lots of juice, plenty of heat to dry everything out.  
Oh Yeah, I have read that 40% of all fires are electrical in origin.  The rest are probably either arson, or started when electronics guys go to sleep with a soldering iron in their hand <grin>


-- Lawrence Lile, P.E.
Electrical and Electronic Solutions
Project Solutions Companies
http://www.projsolco.com

> {Original Message removed}

2004\08\18@124726 by Randy Abernathy

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In a message dated 8/18/2004 12:45:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
RemoveMEllilespam_OUTspamKILLspamPROJSOLCO.COM writes:

There  are plenty of electricians who also get hot/neutral reversed.  That's
why  I carry around one of those little testers that can test for this, as
well as  test for GFIs when inspecting power.

A fire at a dryer killed a  friend of mine's two children and burned up his
house.  Dryers are great  places for fires - plenty of lint everywhere, lots of
juice, plenty of heat to  dry everything out.

Oh Yeah, I have read that 40% of all fires  are electrical in origin.  The
rest are probably either arson, or started  when electronics guys go to sleep
with a soldering iron in their hand  <grin>





Amen !!

Randy  Abernathy
4626 Old Stilesboro Road NW
Acworth, GA 30101-4066
Phone /  Fax: 770-974-5295
Cell: 678-772-4113
E-mail: RemoveMECnc002TakeThisOuTspamspamaol.com

I  furnish technical support, repair, and other related services for your
industrial woodworking machinery. My background as Senior Service Engineer for
the SCMI Group for nearly fifteen years with factory training, combines with
my  extensive background in electronics, mechanics, pneumatics, electrical and
CNC  machinery to offer you needed support for your  machinery.

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2004\08\18@172500 by Charles Craft

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www.jsmck.com/index1.html

Not meant to be an advertisement. :-)

Many years ago in a past life I helped with a computer upgrade for Sam McKnight.
I was amazed that someone could make a living investigating electrical fires.
Looks like he's still at it.

"The effects of electricity on the human body "

As for the bullet item above can we just say "pisses me off".  :-p


{Original Message removed}

2004\08\18@181859 by Dave Lag

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His how-to books are extremely useful and practical as well as customized
to the jurisdiction they are sold in.
If one is too lazy/cheap to buy the NEC/CEC then at least read the faq I
referenced and
buy McKnight's book. Our inspectors endorse it.
<brag on>I've been told by an inspector I do one of the neatest panels he
has seen.<off>

Dave

At 05:25 PM 8/18/04, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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