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'[ot]: alright here we go, astronomy question'
2002\05\28@194430 by rad0

picon face
sorry about this folks...

I read where someone claims that the origin of
the 360 degree circle is from ancient Babylonia,
not the tv series...and the article claimed that the
360 number was used because the year actually
used to be 360 days, not 365+...

the further claim is made that this can be shown/proven
by reverse calculation of the orbit of earth....

first, is this true?  can you calculate the orbit of the earth
backward historically?

second, the article goes on to claim that during the time
that the earth had a 360 day year, the orbit of mars
brought mars between the earth and the moon....

fantastic claim, just wondering if it's true or calculate-able

thanks

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2002\05\28@225858 by Shawn Mulligan

picon face
>I read... that the... year actually used to be 360 days, not 365+...

Perhaps when the earth was establishing its orbit around the sun during the
formation of the solar system, very long before life existed and only for a
short period of time.

>can you calculate the orbit of the earth
>backward historically?

Yes. In the 16th and 17th centuries, Johannes Kepler and Isaac Newton
discovered the laws of motion which govern the motion of objects here on
earth and beyond. They used these mathematical models to predict future
events, successfully. Predicting past events is really the same problem in
reverse. Modern scientists, such as Einstein, have included quantum factors
to increase the accuracy of measurements, so, yes, the orbit of the earth
can accurately be calculated in both forward and reverse.


>second, the article goes on to claim that during the time
>that the earth had a 360 day year, the orbit of mars
>brought mars between the earth and the moon....

Not true. You can think about this problem (which gets very complex when 3
bodies are involved) without considering the masses, velocities or distance
between the orbiting objects by considering an example. Say you raised your
arm and spun a ping-pong ball attached to a string around your head. This
wouldn't affect your stance very much. If on the other hand you swung a
bowling ball, the chances are you would loose your balance and fall over.
Well, in this example, you are the earth, the ping-pong ball is the moon,
the bowling ball is mars and the string is the gravitational attraction
between the two objects. In our solar system the mass of an orbiting object
is much less then that of the object being orbited. The sun is huge, the
planets tiny. Moons are small when compared to their massive planets.
Communication satellites are tiny compared to the earth which they orbit.
Now, objects of similar masses do orbit one another in the universe, but
nobody is standing on their surfaces to witness and record the event.

I hope this helps. By the way, have you been reading Immanuel Velikovsky?
Many scientists don't consider much of his 'science' to be science.

Shawn

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2002\05\28@232748 by rad0

picon face
planets tiny. Moons are small when compared to their massive planets.
> Communication satellites are tiny compared to the earth which they orbit.
> Now, objects of similar masses do orbit one another in the universe, but
> nobody is standing on their surfaces to witness and record the event.
>
> I hope this helps. By the way, have you been reading Immanuel Velikovsky?
> Many scientists don't consider much of his 'science' to be science.
>
> Shawn
>

no I haven't.

http://www.zealllc.com/2002/astrology.htm

this article/link is what I read....and I thought it was bizarre,
or (bs) to be frank


701 bc seemed a little too soon to make this claim, but I thought
I would put it out to this group...

thanks shawn

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2002\05\28@234452 by Shawn Mulligan

picon face
I looked up your link. Years ago there was author called Immanuel Velikovsky
who sold millions of books outlining similar astronomical theories, rialing
scientists everywhere.

Shawn

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2002\05\28@235059 by rad0

picon face
OK, OK,  I've never heard of Immanuel or this type of thing before,
but I thought it sounded suspicious...thanks




{Original Message removed}

2002\05\29@013123 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
> second, the article goes on to claim that during the time
> that the earth had a 360 day year, the orbit of mars
> brought mars between the earth and the moon....

OK. Please take your seats, lock down your reality and hold on for the ride.
It may be short. There MAY be some fact in this. There may not.

I have no truck with Astrology either in its mind-absent populist newspaper
column form OR in its more "rigorous" forms (for reasons which I consider
logical but which are probably best not discussed onlist :-)). (Briefly: IF
it works why and how does it work? What are the implications?. Why do we,
and Astrologers, ignore them?)

Velikovsky was scientifically inept and appears to have been either a
charlatan OR far
more genuinely misguided than his apparent level of intelligence would lead
one to
expect - aka never let good thinking get in the way of a prosperous and
famous life. He still has many supporters but they seem not to want to deal
in Science as it is known despite the fact that their claims are proper
areas for scientific enquiry and test.

HOWEVER - You will note that they cite Chuck Missler. Chuck is, in my
opinion, in a far far far different category than Astrology or Velilovsky.
He is an EE with a very substantial industry background in computers and
company management. He deals in responsible science. He asks "what if ..."
and "may this mean ..." and puts estimates of probability on his results. He
also happens to be a Christian evangelical lecturer and pastor and this may
immediately make anything he says a priori invalid, even if it's not.

The article referred to two of Chucks booklets. Alas the material is not on
line. Here's some rough notes on the subject that I have in my "heap"
____________________________________________________________________________

Postulate: Earth had a 360 day year prior to 701BC due
to a Mars resonance orbit affect causing energy transfer..
Source ?

Also Chuck Missler Rhema 20.10.98 - says it is a theory only which
has been well modelled by NASA. b4 this date 14+ ancient calendars had
360 days and all changed at/after this date to 365 days (!!!!)
also cf Joshua's "long day".

- Creation: jun-aug 97 p36
-     The long day of Joshua and 6 other catastrophes.
-     Donald Patten. Ronald Hatch. Lorenc Steinhauer.
-     Baker book house, Mitchigan 1973.
    This book says day was  Oct 25 1404 BC. Others say July 22 1443 BC.
___________________________

Note the mention of Joshua's long day.
This is an event described in the Bible during which the sun did not go down
for an extended period (about an extra day).

Before we all leap up and run screaming from the room, answer this
question -

Q    If you were to "slingshot" around a Neutron Star or black hole close
enough that you achieved very substantial acceleration but not so close that
tidal effects were significant, what would you feel as you did so?

A    The answer is, essentially nothing (despite what happens in Buzz
Aldrin's novel).. A body in free fall, such as this one would be, is in a
state of rest or uniform motion in a (gravitationally) straight line. It's
just that the straight line does not look very straight to our eyes :-)

I'm not suggesting that an event which caused an orbital or rotational "long
day" is in the same category as the Neutron Star flyby but making the point
that you can do some gravitationally very unusual things which you would
expect to cause results which they don't.

In a similar vein, you can barrel roll very very large aircraft reasonably
safely as it is (or can be) a 1g manoeuvre throughout. (A headbangingly gung
ho US Colonel who everyone sensible feared to fly with once proved the
fatally hard way that you can get it wrong while trying to do it with a
B52).

If you play with an orbital system simulator you will find that you can
cause "resonance" effects which take an apparently stable system of planets
which rotate nicely for some while and then suddenly go horrendously
unstable and spit out a planet or change orbits quite markedly. Add a
Velikovsky billiard ball and some real science and some interesting things
may happen. Look at the moons of Saturn (and indeed other outer planets) and
note their orbital relationships. Look at "shepherd moons". Look at the gaps
in the wings. Think about orbital resonances.

Just try and explain Saturn's F ring.
http://www.solarviews.com/cap/sat/fring.htm Note the phrase "Scientists
speculate ..."

Why is Pluto "lying on its side" unlike most other planets (Uranus similar).
http://www.solarviews.com/eng/pluto.htm

What caused Stickney on Phobos (and look how close it came to de-Phobiating
Phobos).
(Stickney, incidentally, was Asaph Hall's wife's maiden name.)

Look at the IMMENSE Tharsis bulge on one side of Mars and then go round the
other side 180 degrees and see what you find. Now THAT would have been fun
to see happen.

OK. Simulator power down. Goggles off. Seat belts undone. Lets go and find
some of those 14 ancient calendars and check some facts for ourselves ....

:-)



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2002\05\29@023605 by Jinx

face picon face
> arm and spun a ping-pong ball attached to a string around
> your head. This wouldn't affect your stance very much. If on
> the other hand you swung a bowling ball, the chances are
> you would loose your balance and fall over

Gravitation model of a solar system (Java + graphics)

http://arachnoid.com/gravitation/

Pretend to have powers on a celestial scale that would
get you a guest spot on Star Trek

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2002\05\29@100309 by shawnmulligan

picon face
> Gravitation model of a solar system (Java + graphics)
>
> http://arachnoid.com/gravitation/
>
> Pretend to have powers on a celestial scale that would
> get you a guest spot on Star Trek
>

Yeah, that's what I meant to say. Nice applet!


> Gravitation model of a solar system (Java + graphics)
>
> http://arachnoid.com/gravitation/
>
> Pretend to have powers on a celestial scale that would
> get you a guest spot on Star Trek
>

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2002\05\29@102813 by Shawn Mulligan

picon face
>He
>also happens to be a Christian evangelical lecturer and pastor and >this
>may immediately make anything he says a priori invalid, even if >it's not.
>

Very true. I always enjoy the religious arguments though.
My call: If God had meant the Bible to be a scientific text, he would have
included a couple of vector diagrams and few differential equations.


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2002\05\29@103229 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>also happens to be a Christian evangelical lecturer and pastor and >this
>may immediately make anything he says a priori invalid, even if >it's not.

You haven't come up with a figure for the number of days Noah was in the
Ark. He aged one year in that time.

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2002\05\29@140524 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
Afaik that article is not very well founded, however you can reasearch
several antique calendar systems (including Babylonian) using a search
engine. Try 'calendar babylonian mayan'. This should bring up the right
context.  Also try this:

http://echo.fourmilab.ch/documents/calendar/

(not babylonian but most of the others).

Peter

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2002\05\30@134354 by gacrowell

flavicon
face
According to this:

http://www.physlink.com/Education/AskExperts/ae373.cfm

"It was during the reign of Nebuchadnezzar (605-562 BC) in the Chaldean
dynasty in Babylon that the circle was divided into 360 degrees. This was
because the Chaldeans had calculated by observation and inference that a
complete year numbered 360 days. "

Not because the year *was* 360 days, but because they *thought* it was.

GC

> {Original Message removed}

2002\05\30@214010 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
> According to this:
> www.physlink.com/Education/AskExperts/ae373.cfm
> "It was during the reign of Nebuchadnezzar (605-562 BC) in the Chaldean
> dynasty in Babylon that the circle was divided into 360 degrees. This was
> because the Chaldeans had calculated by observation and inference that a
> complete year numbered 360 days. "
> Not because the year *was* 360 days, but because they *thought* it was.

The page referenced makes no mention of the days in a year - only degrees in
a circle.
However, the Chaldeans were FAR FAR smarter than this.
In fact they were about as smart as we are now :-) - just didn't have the
shoulders of as many others to stand on as we do.

If you made your year 360 days long and it was really 365 days you would
have events occurring 5 days earlier each year. After only 6 years you would
be a month out and after 36 years Summer would be Winter and vice versa. You
wouldn't need to be a Chaldean to work out that your calendar was the wrong
length and by about how much. These people had a very substantial
astronomical observational base.

By the dating you give Nebuchanezzar had over 40 years to figure things out,
even starting from scratch.

Any books which make claims like this are just being lazy with their
research and thinking.


       Russell McMahon

{Quote hidden}

> > {Original Message removed}

2002\05\31@045753 by Peter L. Peres
picon face
On Thu, 30 May 2002, gacrowell wrote:

>According to this:
>
>http://www.physlink.com/Education/AskExperts/ae373.cfm
>
>"It was during the reign of Nebuchadnezzar (605-562 BC) in the Chaldean
>dynasty in Babylon that the circle was divided into 360 degrees. This was
>because the Chaldeans had calculated by observation and inference that a
>complete year numbered 360 days. "
>
>Not because the year *was* 360 days, but because they *thought* it was.

Is it possible that they did this because it is hard to determine the
'same' day after a year without accurate instruments if one picks the
'wrong' time for observation ? (like sunset or sunrise instead of noon).
An error of 5 days in 365 is only 1.4%. I guess it would take a good 10
years until people would notice they are off calendar, and even then they
would blame it on something else probably. At least for a while.

Peter

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