I know this has been discussed before, and that it is almost a religious
issue, but I'd like to ask anyway...
One of my customers does a lot of development using a proprietary language
on Linux. They access the linux machines from Windows via Telnet and the
terminal emulation package PowerTerm. They also can get at the Linux file
system from Windows via Samba shares.
The problem they are having is editing source files on the Linux machines
from their Windows desktops under PowerTerm. They are currently using vi and
an ancient editor called 'pe'. The boss has decided (wisely, I think) to
look into running a more modern editor on Windows to access the source files
on the Linux side via Samba.
What they want is an editor that:
(1) is cheap/free
(2) is easy to learn
(3) supports editing multiple files at once
(4) follows Windows standards for function keys, etc
(5) properly manages Linux end-of-lines
(6) is fast
Other good features include:
(1) integration with source control packages (subversion ideally)
(2) file locking (don't allow others to edit a file that is open)
I can't help them too much since I mostly use Visual Studio, MPLAB and VEDIT
(goes back all the way to 8080 CPM!) on Windows and gedit on Linux. None of
my choices make much sense for them.
So far they are evaluating "TextPad". I recommended that look at Multi-Edit.
What else should they look at?
Bob Ammerman wrote:
> I know this has been discussed before, ....
>
snip
> So far they are evaluating "TextPad". I recommended that look at Multi-Edit.
> What else should they look at?
>
> Thanks,
>
> --Bob Ammerman
> RAm Systems
>
>
On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 10:50 PM, Bob Ammerman <spam_OUTrammermanTakeThisOuTverizon.net> wrote:
> So far they are evaluating "TextPad". I recommended that look at Multi-Edit.
> What else should they look at?
Ultraedit and Textpad are both good. But Source Insight is probably
the best programer's editor from what I hear from the professional
software developers aroune me. http://www.sourceinsight.com/buyit.html
________________________________
From: Rolf <.....rolfKILLspam@spam@tuis.net>
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. <piclistKILLspammit.edu>
Sent: Friday, May 22, 2009 11:24:03 AM
Subject: Re: [TECH] Which editor?
Bob Ammerman wrote:
> I know this has been discussed before, ....
>
snip
> So far they are evaluating "TextPad". I recommended that look at Multi-Edit.
> What else should they look at?
>
> Thanks,
>
> --Bob Ammerman
> RAm Systems
>
>
> They are currently using vi and
> an ancient editor called 'pe'.
>
Oooooh, the good old PE ... tell your customers they are good guys :-)
If they are using vi why not using vim? (VI iMproved). For that you can have
graphical interface for both linux and Windows as well as the standard text
one which latter one works on telnet/ssh as well, while the graphical one is
easy to use for even non-vi people. I use it on both Windows and Linux and
would not change that even for the treasury of the entire world. It has too
many features, so if someone claims that he/she knows 20%-25% of all of its
functionalities then I would say he/she is a genious. I know only somewhere
about 5-10% maybe? But still, I can do things much quicker than on any other
text editor could.
You can create your syntax highlight file for your proprietary language and
also you can use it as a kind of IDE so it can call make command and then
walk through the error list in the entire source tree...
Anyway, that's a religious subject as you said so it was only my hint :-)
> Interesting product.
> can it open/edit one file in multiple sub-window like the following link:
> http://forum.htsoft.com/attachments/31333-GoodFeatureOfHI-TIDE1_2.GIF
>
> Funny N.
> Au Group Electronics, http://www.AuElectronics.com
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Rolf <EraseMErolfspam_OUTTakeThisOuTtuis.net>
> To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. <piclistspam_OUTmit.edu>
> Sent: Friday, May 22, 2009 11:24:03 AM
> Subject: Re: [TECH] Which editor?
>
> Bob Ammerman wrote:
>
>> I know this has been discussed before, ....
>>
>>
> snip
>
>> So far they are evaluating "TextPad". I recommended that look at Multi-Edit.
>> What else should they look at?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> --Bob Ammerman
>> RAm Systems
>>
>>
>>
>
> Add Notepad++ to the list of editors to evaluate.
> http://notepad-plus.sourceforge.net/
>
> I use it a lot because it is fast, free, and intuitive.... which is not
> bad for a Windows program.
>
> Rolf
>
On Sat, May 23, 2009 at 12:03 AM, Tamas Rudnai <@spam@tamas.rudnaiKILLspamgmail.com> wrote:
> Oooooh, the good old PE ... tell your customers they are good guys :-)
Is this the PE editor which was used at the DOS time? I used PE, NE at
that time (DOS 3.3) about 20 years ago.
> > Oooooh, the good old PE ... tell your customers they are good guys :-)
>
> Is this the PE editor which was used at the DOS time? I used PE, NE at
> that time (DOS 3.3) about 20 years ago.
I was just guessing that it was... That was a pretty good editor btw.
This is a strong limit on MCU C programming. E.g. I am write a main function which might call 4~5 different functions, and I am searching different variables from time to time, I want all of them being shown on different sub-windows at the same time. I knew my HI-TIDE V1.2x can doing this. Visual studio 6 can only do two (not sure about VS2005/2008, not a big fan). MS-Word can only do two. Eclipse claims do the following: http://forum.htsoft.com/attachments/31361-MultiWin.png
But they cannot adjust each sub-window width independently (not sure if they can do more than 4), and runs too slow on all my machines. It also crashes more frequently than the older, smaller, faster HI-TIDE V1.2x. I sometime use up to 6 (most of the time, 4) sub-window, each has its own display width.
It is quite interesting the long being abandoned Old HI-TIDE V1.2x (released on 2003) seems the best multi-sub-window featured C source code editor I have ever know.
Bob Ammerman wrote:
> I know this has been discussed before, ....
>
snip
> So far they are evaluating "TextPad". I recommended that look at Multi-Edit.
> What else should they look at?
>
> Thanks,
>
> --Bob Ammerman
> RAm Systems
>
>
________________________________
From: Xiaofan Chen <xiaofancEraseME.....gmail.com>
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. <EraseMEpiclistmit.edu>
Sent: Friday, May 22, 2009 12:11:23 PM
Subject: Re: [TECH] Which editor?
On Sat, May 23, 2009 at 12:03 AM, Tamas Rudnai <RemoveMEtamas.rudnaiEraseMEEraseMEgmail.com> wrote:
> Oooooh, the good old PE ... tell your customers they are good guys :-)
Is this the PE editor which was used at the DOS time? I used PE, NE at
that time (DOS 3.3) about 20 years ago.
> The problem they are having is editing source files on the Linux machines
> from their Windows desktops under PowerTerm. They are currently using vi and
> an ancient editor called 'pe'. The boss has decided (wisely, I think) to
> look into running a more modern editor on Windows to access the source files
> on the Linux side via Samba.
Wait, the developers are told which editor to use by their boss?
That's a huge red flag. An editor is a hugely personal thing.
The Linux / Samba combination should allow just running about any
editor written since 1975. Let the developers choose.
The normal way to choose an editor is to look over the shoulder of a
colleague, watch them do a particularly tricky edit with ease, and
say, "cool, what editor are you using?"
That said, you can pry emacs from my cold dead repetitive-stress-injured hands.
While this is true for Notepad++, I don't think it's valid for "most"
editors. Notepad++ is really an oddity in this respect, and this is also
one of the two major beefs I have with it. (The other is that very few
of its menu items have shortcut keys associated. Among others, it makes
it almost impossible to associate the line wrapping command with a
shortcut key.)
> This is a strong limit on MCU C programming. E.g. I am write a main
> function which might call 4~5 different functions, and I am searching
> different variables from time to time, I want all of them being shown
> on different sub-windows at the same time. I knew my HI-TIDE V1.2x
> can doing this.
Here's one (Eclipse, which is what HI-TIDE is based on) for which it
isn't true :)
> Visual studio 6 can only do two (not sure about VS2005/2008, not a big
> fan).
VS2005/2008 definitely can open multiple (>2) windows of a file.
(There's two more :) Not sure about VS6 (not installed anymore), but I'm
almost sure it can, too.
> MS-Word can only do two.
Huh? You sure that this limitation isn't between keyboard and chair? :)
Have you ever tried the "New Window" command (typically in the Windows
or View menus)?
Funny NYPD wrote:
> I have gone through some of the open source source code editor, most of
> them limit to two views of the same documents.
>
> This is a strong limit on MCU C programming. E.g. I am write a main
> function which might call 4~5 different functions, and I am searching
> different variables from time to time, I want all of them being shown
> on different sub-windows at the same time.
If that's the sort of thing you like to do, then emacs is probably your
best bet; any number of windows looking arbitrarily into any number of
buffers.
Use viper if you like the vi command interface (I do).
Alan B. Pearce wrote:
> I would look at Ultraedit http://www.ultraedit.com/ which I believe has
> everything you want (including *nix EOL handling), but is not free.
>> They are currently using vi and
>> an ancient editor called 'pe'. The boss has decided (wisely, I
>> think) to
>> look into running a more modern editor on Windows to access the
>> source files
>> on the Linux side via Samba.
>
> Wait, the developers are told which editor to use by their boss?
Yeah, alarm bells were going off in my head at that too. A group of
engineers used to vi are not likely to be happy being forced to use a
modern editor (and as far as I know, very few "modern" editors have
replicated vi's semi-mode-ishness. (whereas emacs users can be
prevented by violent revolt by implementing a relatively small number
of keystroke-based commands.))
> The problem they are having is editing source files on the Linux
> machines
> from their Windows desktops under PowerTerm.
Now this is certainly likely to be annoying, but there are several
other ways of fixing this that do not involve the need to change
anyone's religious faith.
1) I would think that most editors available on linux are also
available for windows, especially if you're talking about editors that
you have source code for. Certainly there is vi for windows in both
source and binary form, quite capable of accessing files over a remote
file system.
2) You can run X windows, and let your remote linux system open up
display windows on the local PCs. This lets you get many of the
advantages of a "modern" editor while changing the PC environment
hardly at all. Much faster/better than using local terminal emulator
windows to access the linux system. Almost all my "real work" is done
using a windows PC as an "X terminal" for "big unix iron." There are
several alternatives for X on windows, including some open source
freeware.
>> Wait, the developers are told which editor to use by their boss?
>
> Yeah, alarm bells were going off in my head at that too. A group of
> engineers used to vi are not likely to be happy being forced to use a
> modern editor (and as far as I know, very few "modern" editors have
> replicated vi's semi-mode-ishness.
Maybe I didn't make myself particularly clear.
The folks with this requirement are not engineers. Rather they are ordinary
business system type programmers (they wouldn't know which end of a pic to
connect to the power supply). They have been buried in this crazy
proprietary language and vi/pe so long that they really don't know there is
anything better to be had.
Today, they started using "TextPad" as a trial and they are all more-or-less
drooling over it. None of them has any editor religion (except one guy who
pines for the old Wild Hare editor on Data General systems).
I am just trying to help a friend narrow down the field of possibilities for
use in his company. He really wants to standardize on one editor to simplify
internal support.
> > Visual studio 6 can only do two (not sure about VS2005/2008, not a big
> > fan).
>
> VS2005/2008 definitely can open multiple (>2) windows of a file.
> (There's two more :) Not sure about VS6 (not installed anymore), but I'm
> almost sure it can, too.
>
> > MS-Word can only do two.
>
> Huh? You sure that this limitation isn't between keyboard and chair? :)
> Have you ever tried the "New Window" command (typically in the Windows
> or View menus)?
He's talking about 'splitter view', when you drags the splitter bar down so
you can look at two different sections of the same document at once.
VS does this (as does Word, Excel etc) so you can look at the top part for
your module and the bottom at the same time. Dunno if synchronised
scrolling works on split windows.
I've never found it all that useful, usually your code is in short chunks so
scrolling isn't a problem if you want to see other bits of it, or you're
comparing two different documents. Looks like it falls into the 80% unused
= bloat area. :)
You can definitely do that on the old HI-TIDE V1.2x. Some of my C file got up to 50 functions, and I can search and edit at different section of the same file. All sub-window got synchronized real time. I sometime open a 2x2, 2x3, or two on the top, three on the bottom. This really help for MCU C programming.
> > Visual studio 6 can only do two (not sure about VS2005/2008, not a big
> > fan).
>
> VS2005/2008 definitely can open multiple (>2) windows of a file.
> (There's two more :) Not sure about VS6 (not installed anymore), but I'm
> almost sure it can, too.
>
> > MS-Word can only do two.
>
> Huh? You sure that this limitation isn't between keyboard and chair? :)
> Have you ever tried the "New Window" command (typically in the Windows
> or View menus)?
He's talking about 'splitter view', when you drags the splitter bar down so
you can look at two different sections of the same document at once.
VS does this (as does Word, Excel etc) so you can look at the top part for
your module and the bottom at the same time. Dunno if synchronised
scrolling works on split windows.
I've never found it all that useful, usually your code is in short chunks so
scrolling isn't a problem if you want to see other bits of it, or you're
comparing two different documents. Looks like it falls into the 80% unused
= bloat area. :)
> You can definitely do that on the old HI-TIDE V1.2x. Some of my C file got
up to 50
> functions, and I can search and edit at different section of the same
file. All sub-
> window got synchronized real time. I sometime open a 2x2, 2x3, or two on
the top,
> three on the bottom. This really help for MCU C programming.
I really don't need to see lots of functions at one time, and make changes
to them. I prefer to change one thing at a time, that tends to cause me
less grief.
> I've never found it all that useful, usually your code is in short chunks
> so
> scrolling isn't a problem if you want to see other bits of it, or you're
> comparing two different documents. Looks like it falls into the 80% unused
> = bloat area. :)
>
I am using split screen with vim quite some times sometimes with the same
file and some other times loading different files to it. When using with the
same file (in this case the functionality is equivalent to VS6 split screen)
I can see some part of the code somewhere else on the file while typing in
to another place. Viewing another file in the similar matter is also
sometimes very useful, like viewing the header file or making a diff to a
previous version. These works really fine on the wide screen with vertical
splitting (finally found a good use of the wxga monitor :-) ) Anyways, you
can do these with separated windows as well, however, with vim you would
loose all the copy buffers in between and the clipboard is the only option
you have left which is a quite pure solution alone.
> I am just trying to help a friend narrow down the field of possibilities
> for
> use in his company. He really wants to standardize on one editor to
> simplify
> internal support.
>
In my company standardization just did not work. Some engineer just cannot
stand on this or that editor, the other one prefers another one etc. I think
I am the only one using vim and only two others knows how to use it, many
likes Ultraedit, and 3 uses far commander with the built-in editor and they
are religious with that. But all editors are available on each workstation,
so in case an engineer sits down in one place can use his own preferred
editor for sure. With syntax highlights and macros virtually everyone has to
write his own for his needs/likes.
> > I've never found it all that useful, usually your code is in short
chunks
> > so
> > scrolling isn't a problem if you want to see other bits of it, or you're
> > comparing two different documents. Looks like it falls into the 80%
unused
> > = bloat area. :)
> >
>
> I am using split screen with vim quite some times sometimes with the same
> file and some other times loading different files to it. When using with
the
> same file (in this case the functionality is equivalent to VS6 split
screen)
> I can see some part of the code somewhere else on the file while typing in
> to another place. Viewing another file in the similar matter is also
> sometimes very useful, like viewing the header file or making a diff to a
> previous version. These works really fine on the wide screen with vertical
> splitting (finally found a good use of the wxga monitor :-) ) Anyways, you
> can do these with separated windows as well, however, with vim you would
> loose all the copy buffers in between and the clipboard is the only option
> you have left which is a quite pure solution alone.
Modern editors have eliminated much of the need for the 'view the header'
stuff with autocomplete, hotkeys to jump to definitions and mouse overs that
show info about the variable. It does get a bit annoying when you wind up
with about 40 code windows open though... Doesn't help the OP, of course.
>>> Visual studio 6 can only do two (not sure about VS2005/2008, not a big
>>> fan).
>>
>> VS2005/2008 definitely can open multiple (>2) windows of a file.
>> (There's two more :) Not sure about VS6 (not installed anymore), but I'm
>> almost sure it can, too.
>>
>>> MS-Word can only do two.
>>
>> Huh? You sure that this limitation isn't between keyboard and chair? :)
>> Have you ever tried the "New Window" command (typically in the Windows
>> or View menus)?
>
> He's talking about 'splitter view', when you drags the splitter bar
> down so you can look at two different sections of the same document
> at once.
Yes, I figured. But he said that they "can only do two (windows)", which
is wrong. These programs can do many windows of the same file, which you
also can use to look at (many) different sections of the same document.
> I've never found it all that useful, usually your code is in short
> chunks so scrolling isn't a problem if you want to see other bits of
> it, or you're comparing two different documents. Looks like it falls
> into the 80% unused = bloat area. :)
I don't use it that often, but I do use it. It's not all that uncommon
that I work on two parts of the same file at the same time or want to
have one part for reference before my eyes when I work on the other. Not
that different from having a different file in view when working on
another file.
> Modern editors have eliminated much of the need for the 'view the header'
> stuff with autocomplete, hotkeys to jump to definitions and mouse overs
> that
> show info about the variable.
>
That's true, as a modern version of vi, vim also has all of these. However,
jumping back and forth all over again is getting annoying me sometimes.
On Sat, May 23, 2009 at 6:49 PM, Gerhard Fiedler
<EraseMElistsEraseMEconnectionbrazil.com> wrote:
> I don't use it that often, but I do use it. It's not all that uncommon
> that I work on two parts of the same file at the same time or want to
> have one part for reference before my eyes when I work on the other. Not
> that different from having a different file in view when working on
> another file.
I remember the DOS NE (norton editor) or PE can do it 20 year ago. ;-)
On Sat, May 23, 2009 at 6:31 PM, Tony Smith <@spam@ajsmith@spam@spam_OUTbeagle.com.au> wrote:
> Modern editors have eliminated much of the need for the 'view the header'
> stuff with autocomplete, hotkeys to jump to definitions and mouse overs that
> show info about the variable. It does get a bit annoying when you wind up
> with about 40 code windows open though... Doesn't help the OP, of course.
>
It seems editors like Source Insight have no issue with that. My colleagues
routinely open projects with a lot of files (1000s or more) with that.
But for small projects, it seems normal IDEs like Keil and IAR
are good enough.
>> I am just trying to help a friend narrow down the field of possibilities
>> for
>> use in his company. He really wants to standardize on one editor to
>> simplify
>> internal support.
>>
>
> In my company standardization just did not work...
> Anyway, what type of internal support do they do?
>
> Tamas
Mostly very informal stuff like: "Here is a neat tweak to the configuration,
you might want to try it" which they were already doing with TextPad
yesterday (the first day they were using it).
Tony Smith wrote:
> I really don't need to see lots of functions at one time, and make
> changes to them. I prefer to change one thing at a time, that tends
> to cause me less grief.
I like to edit one module at a time too, but that often means looking at
another section in the same module (like the variable and data type
definitions) and various include files. Ultraedit can have any number of
views to the same or other files open at once. I usually organize these
into two groups. I edit in the window on the left and keep all read-only
views overlapped on the right so I can quickly call up the particular file I
need to refer to with a couple of keystrokes.
Tamas Rudnai wrote:
> In my company standardization just did not work. Some engineer just
> cannot stand on this or that editor, the other one prefers another
> one etc. I think I am the only one using vim and only two others
> knows how to use it, many likes Ultraedit, and 3 uses far commander
> with the built-in editor and they are religious with that. But all
> editors are available on each workstation, so in case an engineer
> sits down in one place can use his own preferred editor for sure.
> With syntax highlights and macros virtually everyone has to write his
> own for his needs/likes.
I agree. It's a bad idea to tell software engineers what editor to use.
It's a lot more important to make sure they have the editor of their choice
available. As long as they can use whatever editor they want effectively
and be productive, why should I care?
I also don't see the point of standardization. A editor is simply a means
to get to a edited source file. The end result matters, but how a
individual engineer gets there is irrelevant. Any other engineer can pick
up the same source file, edit it using their favorite tool, then put it
back. The only reasonable points of standardization might be the content of
the file (like never leave hard tabs in it), but as long as a engineer can
adhere to them and be productive, why is it my business how he does that?
On Sat, May 23, 2009 at 9:43 PM, Olin Lathrop <spamBeGoneolin_piclistKILLspamembedinc.com> wrote:
> I like to edit one module at a time too, but that often means looking at
> another section in the same module (like the variable and data type
> definitions) and various include files. Ultraedit can have any number of
> views to the same or other files open at once. I usually organize these
> into two groups. I edit in the window on the left and keep all read-only
> views overlapped on the right so I can quickly call up the particular file I
> need to refer to with a couple of keystrokes.
>
UltraEdit is the best editor I have ever used. I have never used
their IDE which is called UEstudio which seems to fit the OP's
goal better (source control integration).
There are now enough people who like to use UltraEdit even
under Linux that actually they have come out with the Linux
version. http://www.ultraedit.com/products/uex.html
On the other hand, it seems that it may not be good for projects
with thousands of C/C++/ASM files. Some of my colleague like
Ultraedit or Textpad as well for smaller projects. But they use
Source Insight which seems to be better when it comes to big
projects.
But since I do not really write codes now at work, so I am fine with
the free alternatives (Programmer's notepad and another one
with block mode under Windows and gedit/geany under Linux).
Well, I might finally have a really good excuse for my customer
standardizing on one editor. We are now looking at the possibility of
implmenting compiler integration for the proprietary language. Since the
compiler only runs on Linux this will involve me writing a tcp client for
Windows nd server on Linux. The 'compiler' invoked by the editor is really
the TCP client program which then sends the compile request to the TCP
servier on Linux. After the compile completes the Windows app will format up
the error file in the format required by the editor for its error list.
Obviously I only want to do this once (or more truthfully my customer only
wants to pay me to do this once).
> You can definitely do that on the old HI-TIDE V1.2x. Some of my C file got
up to 50
> functions, and I can search and edit at different section of the same
file. All sub-
> window got synchronized real time. I sometime open a 2x2, 2x3, or two on
the top,
> three on the bottom. This really help for MCU C programming.
I really don't need to see lots of functions at one time, and make changes
to them. I prefer to change one thing at a time, that tends to cause me
less grief.
>I am using split screen with vim quite some times sometimes with the same
>file and some other times loading different files to it. When using with the
>same file (in this case the functionality is equivalent to VS6 split screen)
>I can see some part of the code somewhere else on the file while typing in
>to another place. Viewing another file in the similar matter is also
>sometimes very useful, like viewing the header file or making a diff to a
>previous version.
That's exactly the point I enjoyed the old HI-TIDE V1.2x, I normally use two computer screen, one for MPLAB, one for HI-TIDE V1.2x.
The MPLAB is used to compile the C project, download the hex, the HI-TIDE V1.2x is used to edit the C source code. On the HI-TIDE screen, I normally split the whole 15 inch screen in two, the top one normally has 2~3 sub-window, the bottom one also got 2~3 sub-window. If i want, I can easily watch/edit 6 or more different position in the same/different file without moving the cursor up and down like crazy. (This makes it easy for programmer to remember what he is doing. It has been a critical feature and affects the efficiency a lot if you got a program more than 500 lines). Each sub-window could be either the same C file or header files. All sub-window has independent width control (this is the unique feature I really like and never found on all other editors).
The third good feature on HI-TIDE V1.2x is it can easily jump to any function from a drop-down menu in each sub-window. All in all, I can tell is : the HI-TIDE V1.2x designed by a programmer and for a programmer. It took care of all necessary features a programmer needed for his/her daily life.
All Microsoft toolset I tested seem can only handle two split sub-window.
So far I didn't see an alternative to replace the old HI-TIDE V1.2x yet. It is a home grown program created by HI-TECH engineer. However the HI-TECH manager seems made some stupid decision abandoned the home grown product and moved to the beautiful but slower/useless/unstable Eclipse. And these three good features are gone on Eclipse based newer HI-TIDE releases too.
As long as I got the HI-TIDE V1.2x, I am a happy programmer.
The recent MPLAB V8.xx editor seems improved a lot compare with it older releases. I used it occasionally when only small changes is necessary.
> > I've never found it all that useful, usually your code is in short
chunks
> > so
> > scrolling isn't a problem if you want to see other bits of it, or you're
> > comparing two different documents. Looks like it falls into the 80%
unused
> > = bloat area. :)
> >
>
> I am using split screen with vim quite some times sometimes with the same
> file and some other times loading different files to it. When using with
the
> same file (in this case the functionality is equivalent to VS6 split
screen)
> I can see some part of the code somewhere else on the file while typing in
> to another place. Viewing another file in the similar matter is also
> sometimes very useful, like viewing the header file or making a diff to a
> previous version. These works really fine on the wide screen with vertical
> splitting (finally found a good use of the wxga monitor :-) ) Anyways, you
> can do these with separated windows as well, however, with vim you would
> loose all the copy buffers in between and the clipboard is the only option
> you have left which is a quite pure solution alone.
Modern editors have eliminated much of the need for the 'view the header'
stuff with autocomplete, hotkeys to jump to definitions and mouse overs that
show info about the variable. It does get a bit annoying when you wind up
with about 40 code windows open though... Doesn't help the OP, of course.
>Yes, I figured. But he said that they "can only do two (windows)",
I knew many editor can open many tabbed windows, and sometime, you won't be able to watch two at the same time. Also on each tabbed window you can only split it into two sub-window, which is what I saw on MPLAB editor and VS6.
>>> Visual studio 6 can only do two (not sure about VS2005/2008, not a big
>>> fan).
>>
>> VS2005/2008 definitely can open multiple (>2) windows of a file.
>> (There's two more :) Not sure about VS6 (not installed anymore), but I'm
>> almost sure it can, too.
>>
>>> MS-Word can only do two.
>>
>> Huh? You sure that this limitation isn't between keyboard and chair? :)
>> Have you ever tried the "New Window" command (typically in the Windows
>> or View menus)?
>
> He's talking about 'splitter view', when you drags the splitter bar
> down so you can look at two different sections of the same document
> at once.
Yes, I figured. But he said that they "can only do two (windows)", which
is wrong. These programs can do many windows of the same file, which you
also can use to look at (many) different sections of the same document.
> I've never found it all that useful, usually your code is in short
> chunks so scrolling isn't a problem if you want to see other bits of
> it, or you're comparing two different documents. Looks like it falls
> into the 80% unused = bloat area. :)
I don't use it that often, but I do use it. It's not all that uncommon
that I work on two parts of the same file at the same time or want to
have one part for reference before my eyes when I work on the other. Not
that different from having a different file in view when working on
another file.
>> Yes, I figured. But he said that they "can only do two (windows)",
>
> I knew many editor can open many tabbed windows, and sometime, you
> won't be able to watch two at the same time. Also on each tabbed
> window you can only split it into two sub-window, which is what I saw
> on MPLAB editor and VS6.
I don't think you understand. With these editors (VS any version, Word,
many others), you can open as many windows as you want /for the same
file/. You can position them any way you like, so you can make them
look like a window split multiple times, but you can also make them look
differently.
You also don't have to use tabbed windows; you can use the traditional
interface with multiple child windows.
With VS2005/2008, you can create something that looks like multiply
split windows if you use the tabbed interface. Sometimes you have to dig
a bit into an editor (especially if it's not a trivial one) to find out
how to do what you want.
> Well, I might finally have a really good excuse for my customer
> standardizing on one editor. We are now looking at the possibility of
> implmenting compiler integration for the proprietary language. Since
> the compiler only runs on Linux this will involve me writing a tcp
> client for Windows nd server on Linux. The 'compiler' invoked by the
> editor is really the TCP client program which then sends the compile
> request to the TCP servier on Linux. After the compile completes the
> Windows app will format up the error file in the format required by
> the editor for its error list. Obviously I only want to do this once
> (or more truthfully my customer only wants to pay me to do this
> once).
A decent general-purpose coding editor can invoke custom compile
commands and parse pretty much any error file that contains the required
information in a regexp-parsable format.
So if your TCP app has a command line interface and the generated error
file adheres to some minimal requirements, pretty much any decent coding
editor would be able to transparently work with this setup.
("Transparently" in the sense that you couldn't tell, not in the
compiler executable and not by analyzing the source files, what editor
was used to create the sources and the binaries.)
I have no way to split in horizontal. And On vertical direction, I can only get two split sub-window max. It may be good for words editing, but not for MCU programming.
It would be highly appreciate if you can provide a guide and picture on VS6 or VS2005 on how to make sth like the above photo link.
>> Yes, I figured. But he said that they "can only do two (windows)",
>
> I knew many editor can open many tabbed windows, and sometime, you
> won't be able to watch two at the same time. Also on each tabbed
> window you can only split it into two sub-window, which is what I saw
> on MPLAB editor and VS6.
I don't think you understand. With these editors (VS any version, Word,
many others), you can open as many windows as you want /for the same
file/. You can position them any way you like, so you can make them
look like a window split multiple times, but you can also make them look
differently.
You also don't have to use tabbed windows; you can use the traditional
interface with multiple child windows.
With VS2005/2008, you can create something that looks like multiply
split windows if you use the tabbed interface. Sometimes you have to dig
a bit into an editor (especially if it's not a trivial one) to find out
how to do what you want.
>I don't think you understand. With these editors (VS any version, Word,
>many others), you can open as many windows as you want /for the same
>file/. You can position them any way you like, so you can make them
>look like a window split multiple times, but you can also make them look
>differently.
If I doing sth like that, would all the window synchronize real-time when I change the same file at different location?
> Well, I might finally have a really good excuse for my customer
> standardizing on one editor. We are now looking at the possibility of
> implmenting compiler integration for the proprietary language. Since the
> compiler only runs on Linux this will involve me writing a tcp client for
> Windows nd server on Linux. The 'compiler' invoked by the editor is really
> the TCP client program which then sends the compile request to the TCP
> servier on Linux. After the compile completes the Windows app will format
> up
> the error file in the format required by the editor for its error list.
> Obviously I only want to do this once (or more truthfully my customer only
> wants to pay me to do this once).
>
Bob, I still can't see how is that better than have an ssh client or an
xwindow server on the workstation and starting up a vim or a gvim from the
host machine? In this case you just have to say ":make" and the compilation
is done -- pretty sure other editors and IDEs on Unix/Linux has the same
facilities... Setting up is like half an hour, and with ssh you already have
an encrypted channel -- in case you want to do it over internet.
>> I don't think you understand. With these editors (VS any version,
>> Word, many others), you can open as many windows as you want /for
>> the same file/. You can position them any way you like, so you can
>> make them look like a window split multiple times, but you can also
>> make them look differently.
>
> If I doing sth like that, would all the window synchronize real-time
> when I change the same file at different location?
Yes - I use it all the time. Just try it... I already explained how in
an earlier message. (It's typically a menu command called "New window"
or similar that typically can be found in the Window or View menu.)
Maybe I just stick with it until some editor software got all those multi-split features. The Engineers (at HI-TECH) created the old HI-TIDE V1.2x must be genius, they created so much useful and unique features. I and most of my team really enjoy these features.
It does improve the MCU C code efficiency more than 50% in our daily programming life. (Most of our in-house and OEM program's source codes are average 3000~5000 lines, the old HI-TIDE V1.2x proofed with its unique features that it is the best C editor tool for programmers.)
> Maybe I just stick with it until some editor software got all those
> multi-split features. The Engineers (at HI-TECH) created the old HI-TIDE
> V1.2x must be genius, they created so much useful and unique features. I and
> most of my team really enjoy these features.
>
> It does improve the MCU C code efficiency more than 50% in our daily
> programming life. (Most of our in-house and OEM program's source codes are
> average 3000~5000 lines, the old HI-TIDE V1.2x proofed with its unique
> features that it is the best C editor tool for programmers.)
>
Now you made me curious :-) What are the most powerful feature of Hi-Tide
that helps you the most?
Funny NYPD wrote:
> I have tried the UltraEdit, found it still has all the limit a MS-Word
> or VS6 has. It can only split the same file into two sub-window and
> that's it.
>Now you made me curious :-) What are the most powerful feature of Hi-Tide
>that helps you the most?
When writing new C source codes, it is important to secure any related old codes/variables/functions/headers can be watched at the same time on all sub-windows (2x2 is normal, sometime 2x3, occasionally 2x4, my 2nd computer screen is only 15 inch, otherwise, I might just keep 2x4 for easy of use purpose if a 19 inch screen is used. It actually can be used in any style, e.g. 1x1+3x1, 1x3+1x2, etc. I personally like the 2x2 style, which makes me comfortable most of the time.).
And, most of the time, they (functions, variables, constants, arraies, etc) are all in the same xxx.C file.
When our guys were working on the PICKit 2 source code for the new PTG feature (Programmer-to-go, SPI bused memory, max support memory 4M bytes), this multi-split sub-window feature helps a lots too. One of my engineer spend 8 hours to get familiar with the firmware source code, and about 1 hour to accomplished the enhancements.
I was told, without the HI-TIDE V1.2x, he will need at least twice the time to get familiar with the Microchip PICKit 2 C source codes due to the fact the Microchip source code are distributed multiple locations. If you can only watch one function at a time, you will need move your mouse like crazy to catch up the program flow-chart. That's just another success story how tools affect programming efficiency.
All PICKit 2 firmware C source code and C# PC source code has been submitted to Microchip PICKit 2 team in the middle of March. Now the C# source code has been successfully integrated into the V2.61 releases (Special thanks to Walter, he left Microchip right after the C# integration and co-working with us). We hope the firmware code will be integrated into the future releases soon. So our work will contribute to the whole PICkit 2 community, especially those who had contributed to this "open-source" programmer. It is a pitty the PICKit 3 can only support max 512K bytes for not yet availbel PTG feature. Our contribution, have makes the PICKit 2 a better choice for any one like the PTG and have a large target Hex files (e.g. most of the PIC24 and some dsPIC33 have now 256K bytes of Memory, those chip's PTG will definitely need large PTG capacity. Our SPI bused design can fulfill those customer need. And our Product line has been using these SPI based PTG
funciton ever since Jan-2009.).
We have heavily tested both the C firmware code and C# code internally since the middle of January, so far, the PTG feature on our 512K byte, 1M byte, 4M byte version of PICKit 2 prototypes works like a charm. The SPI speed indeed is faster than the 400K I2C bus on both programming downloading and reading.
Thanks Olin, Now I see what "New Window" command means.
I have always try to split the same window instead of open a new window, my bad.
All "split" features I have ever seen (VC6, VS2005, Word, UltraEdit, etc) are limited to two: up and down sub-windows.
Can you open the same file 4 time like you showed and edit in the same file in any one of those four windows and each window get synchronized in real time. I have done a quick test, but failed in opening the same file in 4 windows as you did.
I can do that in HI-TIDE, and any changes in each window will be reflected in all other sub-window in real time. That's really a neat feature. So I can edit multiple locations in the same .c file(s) at the same time.
Funny NYPD wrote:
> I have tried the UltraEdit, found it still has all the limit a MS-Word
> or VS6 has. It can only split the same file into two sub-window and
> that's it.
Funny NYPD wrote:
> Can you open the same file 4 time like you showed and edit in the same
> file in any one of those four windows and each window get synchronized
> in real time.
Of course. It would be rather pointless if you couldn't.
> I have done a quick test, but failed in opening the same
> file in 4 windows as you did.
Then you haven't even bothered to look at the WINDOW menu. I'm home right
now, and on this system I'm still running a old version, but I don't think
this changed in newer versions. The first entry in the WINDOW menu is
DUPLICATE WINDOW. Pretty obvious.
> Thanks Olin, Now I see what "New Window" command means.
It means "new window". I probably should have explained this better...
my bad :)
> All "split" features I have ever seen (VC6, VS2005, Word, UltraEdit,
> etc) are limited to two: up and down sub-windows.
Yes, this is also my experience. But with many editors, splitting a
window is just one of the various ways to create multiple views into the
same file.
> Can you open the same file 4 time like you showed and edit in the
> same file in any one of those four windows and each window get
> synchronized in real time.
I answered this already: in all applications you have mentioned so far,
this is possible. I'm sure UltraEdit is no different; this is a standard
feature.
> I have done a quick test, but failed in opening the same file in 4
> windows as you did.
If you want help, it would be helpful if you described what exactly you
did, and what the exact result was. Using the New Window command is
generally pretty straightforward.
> I can do that in HI-TIDE, and any changes in each window will be
> reflected in all other sub-window in real time. That's really a neat
> feature. So I can edit multiple locations in the same .c file(s) at
> the same time.
As I (and others) said numerous times before: this is a standard feature
present in all the editors you wrote about so far, and most others (at
least the ones that use one of the standard Windows GUI paradigms).
MPLAB seems to be an exception in that it doesn't allow multiple views
of the same file, but then it really isn't a full-blown code editor.
>> Visual Studio 2008 has a "New Window" command, but it always seems to be
>> 'grayed out'. Anybody know how to make it work?
>
> Do you have the focus on an existing editor window when selecting it?
>
> Gerhard
Yes, and I tried both tabbed documents and conventional MDI and it stayed
gray in all cases.
That's cool, Now I can edit and change the same file on all 4 window with the "duplicate window" under UltraEdit. Thanks Olin.
Is there a function jump list to help fast access different functions in a .C file? Search and access a function in a 3~5K C source code is no fun at all.
Funny NYPD wrote:
> Can you open the same file 4 time like you showed and edit in the same
> file in any one of those four windows and each window get synchronized
> in real time.
Of course. It would be rather pointless if you couldn't.
> I have done a quick test, but failed in opening the same
> file in 4 windows as you did.
Then you haven't even bothered to look at the WINDOW menu. I'm home right
now, and on this system I'm still running a old version, but I don't think
this changed in newer versions. The first entry in the WINDOW menu is
DUPLICATE WINDOW. Pretty obvious.
>>> Visual Studio 2008 has a "New Window" command, but it always seems
>>> to be 'grayed out'. Anybody know how to make it work?
>>
>> Do you have the focus on an existing editor window when selecting
>> it?
>
> Yes, and I tried both tabbed documents and conventional MDI and it
> stayed gray in all cases.
Sorry, no clue. It always just worked here... Maybe a VS newsgroup can
help.
On Mon, May 25, 2009 at 7:13 AM, Bob Ammerman <.....rammermanRemoveMEverizon.net> wrote:
> Visual Studio 2008 has a "New Window" command, but it always seems to be
> 'grayed out'. Anybody know how to make it work?
>
By default it is grayed out (the split window command is also grayed out).
But once you open a project, it should be ok. This is the case with
Visual Studio 2005 Express Edition. I believe 2008 should be the same.
On Mon, May 25, 2009 at 9:16 PM, Olin Lathrop <.....olin_piclistSTOPspam@spam@embedinc.com> wrote:
> Funny NYPD wrote:
>> Can you open the same file 4 time like you showed and edit in the same
>> file in any one of those four windows and each window get synchronized
>> in real time.
>
> Of course. It would be rather pointless if you couldn't.
I just tried the free editor I occasionally use and it has the same
feature as well. I have no problem to use "New Windows" command
to have 4 windows and they are synchronized in real time. http://www.crimsoneditor.com/
But Programmer's Notepad and PSpad do not
seem to have "New Window" command.
I'll add another contender here, codeblocks http://www.codeblocks.org/
have a look at at the features page.
it does split a window for any file, but no multiple buffers of the same
file.
But for anyone looking/choosing editors its worth a second glance.
Handy if you do work for/on different targets.
It will frun from an Xwindow under Win, I use Xming.
btw it's freeware as GPL v3.0 spec.
On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 9:22 AM, Xiaofan Chen <xiaofancEraseME@spam@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, May 25, 2009 at 7:13 AM, Bob Ammerman <RemoveMErammermanspamBeGoneverizon.net> wrote:
>> Visual Studio 2008 has a "New Window" command, but it always seems to be
>> 'grayed out'. Anybody know how to make it work?
>>
>
> By default it is grayed out (the split window command is also grayed out).
> But once you open a project, it should be ok. This is the case with
> Visual Studio 2005 Express Edition. I believe 2008 should be the same.
>
Yes it is the same for Visual Studio 2008. I tested with the free
Visual C++ 2008 Express Edition.
Another one for Linux users: Kate seems to be quite good as a multi-window
or split-window editor... you can do both and you can see online the change.
I did not try though if two different users are opening up the very same
file... could be interesting for collaboration.
> On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 9:22 AM, Xiaofan Chen <xiaofancspam_OUT@spam@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Mon, May 25, 2009 at 7:13 AM, Bob Ammerman <spamBeGonerammerman@spam@verizon.net>
> wrote:
> >> Visual Studio 2008 has a "New Window" command, but it always seems to be
> >> 'grayed out'. Anybody know how to make it work?
> >>
> >
> > By default it is grayed out (the split window command is also grayed
> out).
> > But once you open a project, it should be ok. This is the case with
> > Visual Studio 2005 Express Edition. I believe 2008 should be the same.
> >
>
> Yes it is the same for Visual Studio 2008. I tested with the free
> Visual C++ 2008 Express Edition.
>
> --
> Xiaofan http://mcuee.blogspot.com
I started to use this tool many years ago and then my interest went
somewhere else, however, I still; think this tool could help a lot on
exploring existing code base quick. It can create xrefs, call trees,
function lists etc. which you can use it with the editor.
> Another one for Linux users: Kate seems to be quite good as a multi-window
> or split-window editor... you can do both and you can see online the change.
> I did not try though if two different users are opening up the very same
> file... could be interesting for collaboration.
>
> Tamas
>
>
>
> On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 3:44 PM, Xiaofan Chen <spamBeGonexiaofancspam_OUTRemoveMEgmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 9:22 AM, Xiaofan Chen <.....xiaofancRemoveMEgmail.com> wrote:
>> > On Mon, May 25, 2009 at 7:13 AM, Bob Ammerman <rammerman@spam@verizon.net>
>> wrote:
>> >> Visual Studio 2008 has a "New Window" command, but it always seems to
>> be
>> >> 'grayed out'. Anybody know how to make it work?
>> >>
>> >
>> > By default it is grayed out (the split window command is also grayed
>> out).
>> > But once you open a project, it should be ok. This is the case with
>> > Visual Studio 2005 Express Edition. I believe 2008 should be the same.
>> >
>>
>> Yes it is the same for Visual Studio 2008. I tested with the free
>> Visual C++ 2008 Express Edition.
>>
>> --
>> Xiaofan http://mcuee.blogspot.com
On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 8:52 PM, Tamas Rudnai <EraseMEtamas.rudnaiRemoveMESTOPspamgmail.com> wrote:
> To even increase the choice:
>
> Source Navigator -- now it has a kind of IDE as well with syntax highlight
> editor:
> http://sourcenav.sourceforge.net/
>
> I started to use this tool many years ago and then my interest went
> somewhere else, however, I still; think this tool could help a lot on
> exploring existing code base quick. It can create xrefs, call trees,
> function lists etc. which you can use it with the editor.
It is kind of powerful and is free. But the interface may need
some more work. From what I see, Source Insight is much
better than it but it is not free.
verizon.net> wrote:
