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'[TECH] Web browsers'
2010\11\01@074547 by Olin Lathrop

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Peter Loron wrote:
> IE6 is, as others have mentioned, well past its sell-by date. It has
> numerous security issues, and is by far the least standards compliant
> browser still in significant use. Stupefying amounts of time are
> spent working around the broken standards support in
>
> Even if you don't care about the new features, updating to a more
> current version will help protect you from vulnerabilities that can
> be exploited to attack your computer.

Last time I looked at the next version of IE, it had some things I didn't
like.  Can the various toolbars and stuff be stripped down like IE6 in the
attached picture?  I never use those silly clickety-click tool bar icons and
don't want them to waste pixels.  If I remember right, IE7 always had
another bar there you couldn't get rid of.

Is there a simple reliable key sequence to put the cursor where you can type
another URL?  In IE6 CTRL-TAB does this, but it didn't always in IE7 if I
remember right.

It's these kind of usability issues that keep me from upgrading.

> Please update your browser.

This is not your call nor your business.


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2010\11\01@083247 by sergio masci

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On Mon, 1 Nov 2010, Olin Lathrop wrote:

{Quote hidden}

It's not my business either but I hope you'll take this as the friendly advice it's meant to be - you NEED to upgrade :-)

Some time ago I picked up a book on XHTML and CSS and had a skim. I was more interested in getting an overview on CSS than anything else. It was a good book (O'Reilly - need I say more). I was shocked by the sheer volume of problems this book highlighted with IE. It discussed hacks to work around many of the problems and some things you just had to steer clear of because you just couldn't use them to the same effect in IE and other browsers. Yes it discussed problems with other browsers as well but that's really not the issue.

BTW something I found really laughable was the way a version of IE for windows behaved differently to the same version of IE for Macs!

Now that M$ has officially turned it's back on IE6 you are going to get more and more web sites that host IE6 "hostile" pages.

Surely high on your list of "usability issues" should be whether pages apear as intended - are they missing important content, are navigation links present etc.

Friendly Regards
Sergio Masc

2010\11\01@090348 by Gordon

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> Can the various toolbars and stuff be stripped down like IE6 in the
> attached picture?

I use Chrome, and although I think Google has turned into a monster,
this browser has really improved over the last 18months and I now use
it all the time. (Firefox and IE still installed for the very rare
time i come across a page that Chrome does not render. once a month
ish)

I switched from Firefox as it was getting bloated and page times were
slower. I also liked chrome's look.
I switched from IE as it about as secure as a open door with a sign
saying 'Welcome' :)

Best regards
Gordon


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2010\11\01@115511 by Herbert Graf

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On Mon, 2010-11-01 at 06:46 -0500, Olin Lathrop wrote:
> Peter Loron wrote:
> > IE6 is, as others have mentioned, well past its sell-by date. It has
> > numerous security issues, and is by far the least standards compliant
> > browser still in significant use. Stupefying amounts of time are
> > spent working around the broken standards support in
> >
> > Even if you don't care about the new features, updating to a more
> > current version will help protect you from vulnerabilities that can
> > be exploited to attack your computer.
>
> Last time I looked at the next version of IE, it had some things I didn't
> like.  Can the various toolbars and stuff be stripped down like IE6 in the
> attached picture?  I never use those silly clickety-click tool bar icons and
> don't want them to waste pixels.  If I remember right, IE7 always had
> another bar there you couldn't get rid of.

Use Chrome. You don't get a browser more minimalistic in clutter (i.e.
tool bars) then Chrome.

It's fast, standards compliant, and has a plug in system almost as good
as firefox.

> > Please update your browser.
>
> This is not your call nor your business.

True, but considering the browser you're using I suspect you will get
that recommendation more and more often.

TTYL

2010\11\01@120908 by alan.b.pearce

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> > > Please update your browser.
> >
> > This is not your call nor your business.
>
> True, but considering the browser you're using I suspect you will get
> that recommendation more and more often.

I am just waiting for the day that Olin has to upgrade his PC machines
and they insist on having Windows 7 to run the peripheral drivers.
;)))))))))))))))))))

The sparks will fly then ;))))
-- Scanned by iCritical.

2010\11\01@124158 by Olin Lathrop

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Herbert Graf wrote:
>>> Please update your browser.
>>
>> This is not your call nor your business.
>
> True, but considering the browser you're using I suspect you will get
> that recommendation more and more often.

Recommendations are fine.  It's the demand, however polite, that I was
objecting to.


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(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000

2010\11\01@124658 by Michael Watterson

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 On 01/11/2010 15:55, Herbert Graf wrote:
{Quote hidden}

It's all our businesses.

Using IE 6 was ALWAYS like running around in the dark having unprotected sex with everything physically possible. AV software is a failure. A PC with AV sw and IE6 can be part of a bot net and you never know. (Content spamming forums. DDOS attacks as well as regular spam source)

Ever since it came out I was replacing it with Netscape. In once instance using MS SMS to update 450 PCs.
Now there is a a choice of
MSIE7, MSIE8  (install one of these for MS Update to work, I prefer IE7 for that and use Firefox for browsing)
Seamonkey, Firefox
Safari
Chrome (if you don't care about privacy)

It's sheer bloodymindedness to use IE6 if you take 1 min to listen or google.

Here is a handy Microsoft supported link http://www.browserchoice.eu/
Not sure how well works in IE6

2010\11\01@124826 by Olin Lathrop

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alan.b.pearce@stfc.ac.uk wrote:
> I am just waiting for the day that Olin has to upgrade his PC machines
> and they insist on having Windows 7 to run the peripheral drivers.

Vista and Windows 7 has actually held me back from getting a laptop.  Now
that W7 has been out for a while we got one, and may get another for my use..
However that is apparently running a 64 bit version which you can't just
install your own drivers on.

I would have been quite happy if Windows development had stopped with XP and
only continued for bug fixes and adding subsystems for newly invented
hardware.  It seems Vista and Windows 7 are just new versions for the sake
of new versions, since MS makes money when people upgrade, not when they
continue to run the old version.


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Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000

2010\11\01@130323 by Michael Watterson

face picon face
 On 01/11/2010 16:42, Olin Lathrop wrote:
> Herbert Graf wrote:
>>>> Please update your browser.
>>> This is not your call nor your business.
>> True, but considering the browser you're using I suspect you will get
>> that recommendation more and more often.
> Recommendations are fine.  It's the demand, however polite, that I was
> objecting to.
>

He did say "please" :-

2010\11\01@131606 by Michael Watterson

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 On 01/11/2010 16:49, Olin Lathrop wrote:
> spam_OUTalan.b.pearceTakeThisOuTspamstfc.ac.uk wrote:
>> I am just waiting for the day that Olin has to upgrade his PC machines
>> and they insist on having Windows 7 to run the peripheral drivers.
> Vista and Windows 7 has actually held me back from getting a laptop.  Now
> that W7 has been out for a while we got one, and may get another for my use.
> However that is apparently running a 64 bit version which you can't just
> install your own drivers on.
>
> I would have been quite happy if Windows development had stopped with XP and
> only continued for bug fixes and adding subsystems for newly invented
> hardware.  It seems Vista and Windows 7 are just new versions for the sake
> of new versions, since MS makes money when people upgrade, not when they
> continue to run the old version.

100% agree.
But
My wife got new laptop last month with XP.
My son just bought a netbook today with XP (160Gbyte HDD).
my other son bought an insane Gamer Laptop with twin HDDs and Desktop type CPU (even software controlled glowing orange edges). Win7 64bit. He won't let anyone prise his old XP laptop from his hands, he uses it still for non-gaming.

However you can still buy XP and it is supported I think till 2020 (tell me I'm wrong, only if it's not yet 2020 and support has stopped).
The majority of Windows is still XP

2010\11\01@141529 by Olin Lathrop

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Michael Watterson wrote:
> My wife got new laptop last month with XP.
> My son just bought a netbook today with XP (160Gbyte HDD).
> my other son bought an insane Gamer Laptop with twin HDDs and Desktop
> type CPU (even software controlled glowing orange edges). Win7 64bit.
> He won't let anyone prise his old XP laptop from his hands, he uses it
> still for non-gaming.

I was under the impression MS stopped allowing new versions of XP to be sold
a few years ago.  For a while you could pay extra for downgrade rights to
switch to XP after having bought a machine with Vista, but I think they
stopped doing that too.  Either that or all the XP machines are old
hardware.

Can you provide a link to a reputable seller offering current machines with
XP?


********************************************************************
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(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000

2010\11\01@142545 by Oli Glaser

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On 01/11/2010 18:16, Olin Lathrop wrote:
> Michael Watterson wrote:
>> My wife got new laptop last month with XP.
>> My son just bought a netbook today with XP (160Gbyte HDD).
>> my other son bought an insane Gamer Laptop with twin HDDs and Desktop
>> type CPU (even software controlled glowing orange edges). Win7 64bit.
>> He won't let anyone prise his old XP laptop from his hands, he uses it
>> still for non-gaming.
> I was under the impression MS stopped allowing new versions of XP to be sold
> a few years ago.  For a while you could pay extra for downgrade rights to
> switch to XP after having bought a machine with Vista, but I think they
> stopped doing that too.  Either that or all the XP machines are old
> hardware.
>
> Can you provide a link to a reputable seller offering current machines with
> XP?

I was under this impression too, which made me reconsider changing back to XP from Vista. If I knew support was going to be available to 2020 (or at least the mext few years) and XP machines were still being sold I mght think again, at least until I move to WIn7 at some point.

2010\11\01@142609 by Peter Loron

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On Mon, 2010-11-01 at 06:46 -0500, Olin Lathrop wrote:
{Quote hidden}

I don't actually have a machine with Windows on it at the moment, but as
I recall there is a great deal of flexibility in how you can configure
the UI in IE8. I don't know about the CTRL-TAB shortcut.

If you are interested in investing some time in researching other
browser options, I suggest setting up a VM with VMware or VirtualBox
(free) and then trying the various options without altering your
"production" setup.

I really like Chrome now as a general purpose browser. I very rarely run
into a site that doesn't work properly there.


> > Please update your browser.
>
> This is not your call nor your business.

Unfortunately it _is_ public business.

Believe me, I don't like random people (or politicians) dictating things
to me any better than you. However, computer security is an issue that
has slid over the precipice into a public issue. End-users are either
ignorant or reluctant to update when necessary, leaving their machines
vulnerable to exploitation by any of the various criminal groups running
botnets and the like. It is a situation where, literally, if you are not
part of the solution you are part of the problem.

Mr. Lathrop, I deeply appreciate the knowledge and advice you bring to
the list, and I am not writing this to be antagonistic. However it
really is a very serious issue. Many people not in the software business
are simply unaware of the magnitude of the problem.

2010\11\01@143510 by Oli Glaser

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On 01/11/2010 18:25, Peter Loron wrote:
> I don't actually have a machine with Windows on it at the moment, but as
> I recall there is a great deal of flexibility in how you can configure
> the UI in IE8. I don't know about the CTRL-TAB shortcut.
>
> If you are interested in investing some time in researching other
> browser options, I suggest setting up a VM with VMware or VirtualBox
> (free) and then trying the various options without altering your
> "production" setup.
>
> I really like Chrome now as a general purpose browser. I very rarely run
> into a site that doesn't work properly there.

Agreed on Chrome, I use it and like it too - I picked it for it's speed and simplicity, and being able to add on what I want to, rather than having it forced upon me. Also if a page needs IE, there is an IE plugin that displays the page in as IE would see it. Only gripe I have is with the flaky FTP support (think they might have fixed that  now though, it sort of worked last I tried no big deal either way though for me)
I would definitely recommend this for Olin.

2010\11\01@143959 by peter green

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Olin Lathrop wrote:
> Michael Watterson wrote:
>  
>> My wife got new laptop last month with XP.
>> My son just bought a netbook today with XP (160Gbyte HDD).
>> my other son bought an insane Gamer Laptop with twin HDDs and Desktop
>> type CPU (even software controlled glowing orange edges). Win7 64bit.
>> He won't let anyone prise his old XP laptop from his hands, he uses it
>> still for non-gaming.
>>    
>
> I was under the impression MS stopped allowing new versions of XP to be sold
> a few years ago.  For a while you could pay extra for downgrade rights to
> switch to XP after having bought a machine with Vista, but I think they
> stopped doing that too. Afaict MS didn't charge any extra for the downgrade rights over what the edition being downgraded from (vista buisness or ultimate, win7 proffessional or ultimate) would otherwise cost. Some OEMs did charge extra for teh downgade media though

I belive the downgrades have now stopped for new machines they only did so pretty recently so there are still machines in the distribution channel that come with downgrade media.
>  Either that or all the XP machines are old
> hardware.
>
> Can you provide a link to a reputable seller offering current machines with
> XP?
>   www.dabs.com/category/computing,desktops-and-monitors/11011?q=windows%20XP
http://www.dabs.com/category/computing,laptops-and-netbooks/11012?q=windows%20XP
>
> ********************************************************************
> Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
> (978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.
>

2010\11\01@151321 by Michael Watterson

face picon face
 On 01/11/2010 18:16, Olin Lathrop wrote:
> Michael Watterson wrote:
>> My wife got new laptop last month with XP.
>> My son just bought a netbook today with XP (160Gbyte HDD).
>> my other son bought an insane Gamer Laptop with twin HDDs and Desktop
>> type CPU (even software controlled glowing orange edges). Win7 64bit.
>> He won't let anyone prise his old XP laptop from his hands, he uses it
>> still for non-gaming.
> I was under the impression MS stopped allowing new versions of XP to be sold
> a few years ago.  For a while you could pay extra for downgrade rights to
> switch to XP after having bought a machine with Vista, but I think they
> stopped doing that too.  Either that or all the XP machines are old
> hardware.
>
> Can you provide a link to a reputable seller offering current machines with
> XP?
>
HP, Acer, eMachines etc.. I can't right now. I will later.

Google Netbook and "Windows XP".

Basically there are "larger Netbooks" that are laptops, but are netbooks because no optical drive,
But with typically 160GB HDD, you can load ISO of CD and mount as lette

2010\11\01@152908 by Bob Blick

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On Mon, 1 Nov 2010 13:16:09 -0500, "Olin Lathrop" said:

> Can you provide a link to a reputable seller offering current machines
> with
> XP?

October 22, 2010 was the final sales day for Windows XP, at least
according to Wikipedia:

"...OEMs installing to ultra low-cost PCs (ULCPCs) until one year after
the availability of Windows 7 (October 22, 2010)"

Which is probably why some netbooks were still available with XP even
this year. And when I was shopping for a laptop on the Dell website a
few months ago I recall seeing one of the options included downgrade
rights to XP, with both XP and 7 media included. Just now when I looked
again, thate options was not found.

Cheerful regards,

Bob



-- http://www.fastmail.fm - The professional email service

2010\11\01@153253 by Carl Denk

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I got a Gateway LT2114U with XP  home from J & R mid June. No built in optical drive, but for around $35 I got a 2 layer DVD with Lightscribe USB drive. The nettop also came with 811N and Bluetooth. So if you have a desktop available, that should enable data transfer at good rates, but if the system crashes, you will need the USB drive to get it running again. Remember to burn a set of restore discs and/or slipstream an install disc while you are able. Checking a little while ago, I couldn't find the same, or any with XP at J & R.
> Basically there are "larger Netbooks" that are laptops, but are netbooks
> because no optical drive,
> But with typically 160GB HDD, you can load ISO of CD and mount as letter
>

2010\11\01@165313 by Vitaliy

face
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Peter Loron wrote:
>> > Please update your browser.
>>
>> This is not your call nor your business.
>
> Unfortunately it _is_ public business.
>
> Believe me, I don't like random people (or politicians) dictating things
> to me any better than you. However, computer security is an issue that
> has slid over the precipice into a public issue. End-users are either
> ignorant or reluctant to update when necessary, leaving their machines
> vulnerable to exploitation by any of the various criminal groups running
> botnets and the like. It is a situation where, literally, if you are not
> part of the solution you are part of the problem.

IE6 user tax?

2010\11\01@173307 by Herbert Graf

picon face
On Mon, 2010-11-01 at 13:51 -0700, Vitaliy wrote:
> Peter Loron wrote:
> >> > Please update your browser.
> >>
> >> This is not your call nor your business.
> >
> > Unfortunately it _is_ public business.
> >
> > Believe me, I don't like random people (or politicians) dictating things
> > to me any better than you. However, computer security is an issue that
> > has slid over the precipice into a public issue. End-users are either
> > ignorant or reluctant to update when necessary, leaving their machines
> > vulnerable to exploitation by any of the various criminal groups running
> > botnets and the like. It is a situation where, literally, if you are not
> > part of the solution you are part of the problem.
>
> IE6 user tax?

Back in the day when IE6 was by far the most used browser it was VERY
frustrating using other platforms since MANY sites wouldn't let you see
anything, instead just popped up an error saying "this site only works
with IE6". While I'd love that solution (in reverse) I think it's a
little brutal.

I don't think anything special should be done, just stop checking your
sites in IE6; if it works great, if it doesn't, it'll just give the user
more incentive to use a functional browser.

TTYL

2010\11\01@200114 by Vitaliy

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Herbert Graf wrote:
{Quote hidden}

I agree. The "use tax" was a joke.

Vitaliy

2010\11\02@074312 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
Herbert Graf wrote:
> I don't think anything special should be done, just stop checking your
> sites in IE6; if it works great, if it doesn't, it'll just give the
> user more incentive to use a functional browser.

Or make you look stupid or cause the user to go elsewhere.  I guess it comes
down to who is getting more from the interaction.


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Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000

2010\11\02@075751 by Michael Watterson

face picon face
 On 02/11/2010 11:43, Olin Lathrop wrote:
> Herbert Graf wrote:
>> I don't think anything special should be done, just stop checking your
>> sites in IE6; if it works great, if it doesn't, it'll just give the
>> user more incentive to use a functional browser.
> Or make you look stupid or cause the user to go elsewhere.  I guess it comes
> down to who is getting more from the interaction.
>

Ars technica reports that "Net applications" say 15% use IE6. I wonder how many of those are fake signatures for Content Spambots.
Ars themselves see less 17% for all IE versions together.
http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2010/11/windows-xp-falls-under-60-ie8-loses-share-for-the-first-time.ars

Here (Ireland) folks seem to see under 2%  for IE6
Google no doubt knows.
I use Google for search as it's best. (though not as good as it used to be because it now emphases sites they know you visited before)
But I'm under no delusions that they exist to make money sell adverts. Hence I think people are mad using Chrome, though it's translation features are nice.

2010\11\02@095837 by Herbert Graf

picon face
On Tue, 2010-11-02 at 06:43 -0500, Olin Lathrop wrote:
> Herbert Graf wrote:
> > I don't think anything special should be done, just stop checking your
> > sites in IE6; if it works great, if it doesn't, it'll just give the
> > user more incentive to use a functional browser.
>
> Or make you look stupid or cause the user to go elsewhere.  I guess it comes
> down to who is getting more from the interaction.

True, but as a business you have to weigh the pros and cons Olin, and
frankly, <6% of the market is going to be in most cases not worth it
compared to the huge effort to support such a moronically designed
browser.
TTYL

2010\11\02@151541 by Vitaliy

face
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Herbert Graf wrote:
>> > I don't think anything special should be done, just stop checking your
>> > sites in IE6; if it works great, if it doesn't, it'll just give the
>> > user more incentive to use a functional browser.
>>
>> Or make you look stupid or cause the user to go elsewhere.  I guess it
>> comes
>> down to who is getting more from the interaction.
>
> True, but as a business you have to weigh the pros and cons Olin, and
> frankly, <6% of the market is going to be in most cases not worth it
> compared to the huge effort to support such a moronically designed
> browser.

Hear, hear. I'm sure there were people during the time of Edison Ele, that complained about their DC gadgets not working with the silly new AC power.

Vitaliy

2010\11\02@162805 by Gordon

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> Hear, hear. I'm sure there were people during the time of Edison Ele, that
> complained about their DC gadgets not working with the silly new AC power..

And probably just like Edison's HV DC system, thought it was safer

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