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'[TECH] Jet ski -- possible ways for the water to g'
2008\08\18@150836 by Vitaliy

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Hi All,

This is a continuation of the [EE] thread with the same subject.

Carl Denk said:
> Pictures would be worth a 1000 words. :)

http://www.maksimov.org/jetski/

Would love to hear your thoughts!

Sincerely,

Vitaliy


2008\08\18@153816 by Stephen D. Barnes

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Vitaliy wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> This is a continuation of the [EE] thread with the same subject.
>
> Carl Denk said:
>  
>> Pictures would be worth a 1000 words. :)
>>    
>
> http://www.maksimov.org/jetski/
>
> Would love to hear your thoughts!
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Vitaliy
>
>
>  
Dude, that is one kick a$# jet ski motor!  ;-)

--
Regards,
Stephen D. Barnes

2008\08\18@155800 by Carl Denk

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Looks like a typical swallowed valve scenario, the valve stem and valve
head parted company, and the valve head bounced around causing other
damage when the piston couldn't reach top of it's normal travel,
including the sparkplug. Can actually see on the top of the piston where
on one impact the valve head was perpendicular, probably thats the main
damage cause  There is usually is a weld stem to head at about that
point, plus high stress point. This looks very similar to my airplane
engine, except the valve head broke up, and went out the exhaust pipe
which damaged the pusher prop 2" behind the exhaust stack. When we did a
major overhaul on the engine a few hours later, another cylinder's
exhaust valve had a crack and small triangular chunk missing. It was a
good decision on my part to do the engine as quickly as could be, flew
it home, and engine torn down immediately.

Some other comments:
1: The adjacent cylinders combustion chamber color, light tan to almost
black looks good, mixture about right, no excessive oil consumption due
to defective piston rings.
2: On the Pic P1000884.jpg, betwen the middle (failed) and left
cylinders, the gasket face is a much darker color than other areas.
Could get that way from leaking gasket, combustion products leaking to
the adjacent cylinder, or maybe that head was off for some reason at
another time, just looks suspicious, usually the entire gasket surface
is fairly uniform in color and tarnish.
3: On Pic P1000892.jpg, to the left of the damaged cylinder, the gasket
surface seems missing, just the steel cylinder liner appears, I'm
assuming this mates to the area on comment 1. It took more than a little
time for both to happen, in particular the color on item 1, like
hundreds or thousands of RPM's. One cycle doesn't do that. And I'm
assuming that considerable aluminum is missing, but could just be the
colors. That leak is combustion chamber to  water jacket where coolant
would have leaked.

I still believe the valve failed first, and caused all the other damage,
except that color on the gasket surface is suspicious, would have caused
a poor running engine, coolant loss, really not related to valve
failure, but only long term effects. Possibly caused by a warped
cylinder head or block, maybe improperly torqued bolts, was that head
off previously? With the damage, probably can't rely on a check like a
straight edge on the gasket surface. The force from the valve head
jammed could bend stuff enough.


Vitaliy wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2008\08\18@160422 by Dave Tweed

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Vitaliy wrote:
> This is a continuation of the [EE] thread with the same subject.
>
> Carl Denk said:
> > Pictures would be worth a 1000 words. :)
>
> http://www.maksimov.org/jetski/
>
> Would love to hear your thoughts!

The valve failed first, from fatigue and/or corrosion, with the valve head
separating from the stem. There's no way that this failure is the result of
water getting in the cylinder first. The valve head bouncing around inside
the cylinder caused all the other damage, including the smashed spark plug.

My guess is that the water ended up in the cylider(s) because the broken
valve occasionally "wedged" the head away from the block -- you can see
the forces involved from how the head and piston are marked up. The extra
discoloration around that cylinder in the view of the block is another
clue.

It would be really difficult to argue that this failure sequence was the
result of "abuse" by the renter.

-- Dave Tweed

2008\08\18@162619 by olin piclist

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Carl Denk wrote:
> I still believe the valve failed first, and caused all the other
> damage,

Maybe, but remember the first symptom was overheating with no other apparent
engine problems.  The valve head breaking off would have caused immediate
and sudden obvious symptoms.  The engine would have sounded clearly
different, not to mention the rattling, bangs, and knocking as the piston
smashed the loose valve around and occasionally jammed it into the head, as
the pictures clearly show happened.

A head gasket failure could certainly have messed with where coolant went
and caused overheating, perhaps even draining of the coolant enough to cause
damaging overheating.  It's possible that a already weak valve stem cracked
from the additional stress caused by excessive heat and water getting into
the wrong places.

Vitaliy also mentioned steam coming out of somewhere when the engine was
stopped.  I wonder if that was possibly some crankcase vent.  There would
have to be a connection between the coolant channels and the crankcase for
that to make sense, something a broken valve alone doesn't explain but a
head gasket failure does.

Another thing to consider: If there was enough water someplace to boil and
come out as steam near the craft's water line, could the lake water have
been sucked back in when the steam eruption was over?  I think this is a
reasonable possibility if the place where the steam came out was under
water.  The steam would have ensured that whatever cavity it was coming from
was filled almost entirely by vapor phase water.  All it takes is a little
cold water getting back in, which cools some steam, which reduces the
pressure, which sucks in more cold water, etc.  I've seen this happen (not
on a engine), and it's rather spectacular and happens very quickly.  It's
essentially a runaway process that ends with the cavity completely filled
with liquid water, and can take less than a second depending on the size of
the cavity and the size of the opening.


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2008\08\18@163136 by Richard Prosser

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Carl,

I really can't figure out how an engine "going hydraulic" would do
that sort of damage. It looks to me more likely that

a) The valvestem broke, probably a fatigue failure.
b) The valvehead rattled around the combustion chamber for a while,
damaging the top of the piston, the head & the spark plug and possibly
other valves.
c) At some stage the valvehead got sufficiently jammed  to stop the
motor and posiibly displaced the head enough to allow water in through
the head gasket. (IIRC there was water in the cylinder when the head
was removed. It could have seeped in later anyway from the
waterjacket.

See if you can get a closeup photo of the break in the vavestem.
Fatigue breaks are quite characteristic and if that's the root cause,
you're off the hook. What you would be looking for is a series of arcs
across the surface of the broken metal caused by crack progression.
I'm sure there's some photos on the web somewhere
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_fatigue shows an aluminum piece
with fatigue crack growth).

Just an opinion of course!.

RP

2008/8/19 Stephen D. Barnes <spam_OUTstephendbarnesTakeThisOuTspamcavtel.net>:
{Quote hidden}

> -

2008\08\18@163315 by Richard Prosser

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Woops,
Sorry, I'm not sure who the original poser is, but its not Carl.
RP

2008/8/19 Richard Prosser <.....rhprosserKILLspamspam@spam@gmail.com>:
{Quote hidden}

>> --

2008\08\18@165055 by olin piclist

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Richard Prosser wrote:
> Fatigue breaks are quite characteristic and if that's the root cause,
> you're off the hook.

I think he's off the hook either way.  A broken valve doesn't add up as a
symptom of water getting sucked into the intake.

Vitaliy, did you ever get a answer from Kawasaki about what mechanisms this
engine has to prevent sucking lake water in thru the air intake?  I gotta
believe they thought about and dealt with that on a craft like this.


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Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2008\08\18@172338 by Carl Denk

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The original poster was Vitaliy. (And it doesn't bother me as long as
good info gets back to Vitaliy). :)  I concur with what's said below.
One of the possible valve stem failures causes if stress reversal
fatigue. In general there needs to be stress reversal (back and forth
between tension and compression). One of the stress reversals is due to
loose valve guides (could either be valve stem undersize, or valve guide
bore oversize). With the valve stem cocked to one side, the valve head
hits the seat on one side. If the stem wobbles to the other side
(possible since the bore is loose), the head strikes on the opposite
side and where there was bending tension first, there now is bending
compression. At a few thousand RPM, it doesn't take long for fatigue
failure to take place. Probably the valve guide clearance should be
checked. The valve stem can also stretch if high RPM's are used. The
stem diameter can be reduced due to either/both erosion/corrosion and
stretch. Valve  stem/guide wear can also occur  with wrong fuels. When
unleaded fuels became common, some engines had valve guide issues. One
can buy a lead (or look alike) additive for the gasoline, added to the
tank each fill up, commonly used on 50's and earlier engines. On many
(most) piston aircraft engines, it is required to replace the exhaust
valves at overhaul which for revenue service is required usually between
1400 - 2000 hours of use (flight).

The water in the cylinder, as said below, also could have been a long
term (maybe not that long) leaky head gasket as I noted previously by
the gasket surface color. Does this unit have a sealed cooling system,
or circulate sea water? If sealed, this type leak in a car is usually
noticed by loss of coolant, but no external leaks. The complaint is
having to add coolant, of the less than good maintenance driver,
suddenly overheats the engine, usually warping the cylinder head.

Richard Prosser wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2008\08\18@195345 by Vitaliy

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Olin Lathrop wrote:
> Vitaliy, did you ever get a answer from Kawasaki about what mechanisms
> this
> engine has to prevent sucking lake water in thru the air intake?  I gotta
> believe they thought about and dealt with that on a craft like this.

I just called a local dealer, and he told me that there are no such
mechanisms ("the watercraft is designed to operate in an upright
position") -- there are two air intakes, one in the front and one in the
back. The rider is responsible for turning the craft over within 15 seconds
to prevent water from entering the engine.

Vitaliy

2008\08\18@201634 by Vitaliy

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Olin Lathrop wrote:
> I think he's off the hook either way.  A broken valve doesn't add up as a
> symptom of water getting sucked into the intake.

I really hope so, but where do I go from here?

I would like to convince the shop owner that the problem was not caused by
us (that would be the best option). Any ideas on how to accomplish this?
They seem like a reputable small business.

My second step would be to do a chargeback. What kind of proof would I need
to provide to the credit card company to convince them we're innocent?

The only remaining option I see, is taking the case to a small claims court.
I really hope it doesn't get to that, but if it does, what kind of evidence
can I provide to support the claim that the engine failed from fatigue, or
poor maintenance?

Vitaliy

2008\08\18@202951 by Vitaliy

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Carl Denk wrote:
> Does this unit have a sealed cooling system,
> or circulate sea water?

I believe it circulates the lake water, based on what I was told and also
because it's relatively common for the "oil hot" light to come on at low
speeds.

Vitaliy

2008\08\18@203701 by Richard Prosser

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Vitaliy

Can you get the engine parts inspected by a reputable independent
mechanic/mech. engineer.? You should be able to get the rental place
to agree to this if they are convinced the problem was caused by water
ingestion, and a knowledgeable inspector should be able to give a
better opinion from examining the parts than we can from photographs.

The local Kawasaki agent may be able to suggest someone, or a local
university/polytech with an engineering dept??

Otherwise, you may have to do a chargeback & then they will have to
chase you through the small claims court or whatever & provide the
proof.

RP

2008/8/19 Vitaliy <spamspamspam_OUTmaksimov.org>:
{Quote hidden}

> -

2008\08\19@004350 by Vitaliy

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Richard,
> Can you get the engine parts inspected by a reputable independent
> mechanic/mech. engineer.? You should be able to get the rental place
> to agree to this if they are convinced the problem was caused by water
> ingestion, and a knowledgeable inspector should be able to give a
> better opinion from examining the parts than we can from photographs.
>
> The local Kawasaki agent may be able to suggest someone, or a local
> university/polytech with an engineering dept??

The problem is finding someone impartial, or at least someone who would be
biased in my favor. It seems like most jet ski engine experts work for
places that rent them out.

> Otherwise, you may have to do a chargeback & then they will have to
> chase you through the small claims court or whatever & provide the
> proof.

A couple of years ago a friend did a chargeback for a jet ski rental,
because the jet skis he rented would not start when he brought them to the
lake. The owner retaliated by claiming that the jet ski was rolled over
(i.e., that he flooded the engine), and charged him $1200 (IIRC). The credit
card company sided with the rental company.

Vitaliy

2008\08\19@005546 by Jake Anderson

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You shouldn't need a jet ski expert, a metallurgist is who your after
somebody to stick the valve under a scope and say weather it was a
fatigue break or if it snapped due to excess load (ie from water somehow)

Vitaliy wrote:
{Quote hidden}

--

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Jake Anderson

Project Manager

Mobile:       0412 897 125

Email:         @spam@jakeKILLspamspamvapourforge.com

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2008\08\19@035424 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>> Pictures would be worth a 1000 words. :)
>
> http://www.maksimov.org/jetski/
>
>Would love to hear your thoughts!

That looks like a bad case of 'Oh Dear' where 'dear' can also relate to
expense ...

2008\08\19@064413 by olin piclist

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Vitaliy wrote:
> I just called a local dealer, and he told me that there are no such
> mechanisms ("the watercraft is designed to operate in an upright
> position") -- there are two air intakes, one in the front and one in
> the back. The rider is responsible for turning the craft over within
> 15 seconds to prevent water from entering the engine.

15 seconds is a surprisingly long time.  So what did they say would happen
if water did get sucked into the air intake?  You might also show them the
pictures and as if they think this is consistant with the craft getting
rolled or some other cause.  The easiest way to get off the hook would be
for Kawasaki to say the damage is not consitant with rider abuse.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2008\08\19@064703 by olin piclist

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Vitaliy wrote:
> My second step would be to do a chargeback. What kind of proof would
> I need to provide to the credit card company to convince them we're
> innocent?
>
> The only remaining option I see, is taking the case to a small claims
> court.

Wait a minute.  You haven't already paid these people, have you?  That would
have been really stupid.  If they charged the credit card for the damages,
you need to immediately dispute the charge with the credit card company.
You want it to be their burden (and hassle) of proof that you owe them.
Getting your money back after the fact will be much more difficult.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2008\08\19@082245 by Carl Denk

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It would seem like extended low speed operation would be a normal
situation - "No Wake Zone" until out in open water. Check with others.
Could even go to a dealer, and say - I have an extended slow speed area
where I go frequently, is that an issue. A hot engine can cause warping,
and gasket issues. Also when the head is replaced on many engines,
including the 1.9L Ford escort, it is required to replace the head
bolts. If that head was pulled previously, they should have paper work
to indicate they bought new bolts in addition to the gasket. There are
just so many angles to this, it's hard to bring out everything on first
or 2nd go around.

Vitaliy wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2008\08\19@103503 by Bob Blick

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> Vitaliy wrote:
> > Carl Denk wrote:
> >  
> >> Does this unit have a sealed cooling system,
> >> or circulate sea water?
> >>    
> >
> > I believe it circulates the lake water, based on what I was told and also
> > because it's relatively common for the "oil hot" light to come on at low
> > speeds.

Two things come to mind -

The cooling system is sealed, with coolant in the engine, and connected
to a heat exchanger to the lake water. So you can overheat the engine
under any condition if there is low or no coolant. But the lake water
can also boil when the coolant is fine and not boiling because the
coolant is under pressure and it's propylene glycol(safer for the
fishies than ethylene glycol) so it naturally has a higher boiling point
than water.

Also, you have a broken intake valve. Intake valves break when they
stick open and get hit by the piston. They stick open because they are
bent. They bend if you over-rev the engine, the valve floats a little
and gets knocked closed by the piston. Do that a few times and the valve
starts sticking and the whole thing goes south in a hurry.

If it was an exhaust valve it could be something else, but it's an
intake valve, which run cooler but are heavier and float first when
over-revved.

Just my 2 cents and general experience blowing engines.

Best of luck with it. I would guess you have a losing fight in court,
your only hope is if your credit card company can rescue you.

Best regards,

Bob

--
http://www.fastmail.fm - A no graphics, no pop-ups email service

2008\08\19@110406 by Carl Denk

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Didn't hear previously about heat exchanger, doesn't change that
shouldn't overheat at slow speeds. Concur what's said below, and yes
it's usually exhaust valves that swallow, also due to many have hollow
stems with sodium for cooling the valve head. The engine does have a rev
limiter that can be set by the shop. Engine shouldn't of over revved to
float valves, operator should have set for conservative RPM, points to
either rev limiter not set/functioning properly, defective valve spring
or something sticking in the valve train, or of course a defective
valve. All of this points to the renter. Rev limiters are very common
today, being easy to implement.

We can talk all we want, and it's going to end up with who has the
biggest lever, but may be too late with credit card, many have a short
time (2 days) to protest, should check out with credit card, if later
you end up paying, there may be interest, etc. Might want to protest,
pay bill, then get credit later, find out proper procedure.

Bob Blick wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2008\08\19@115346 by Martin

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Did the rental cost him $1200 or did flooding the engine supposedly
cause damage?

Unfortunately it seems that "buyer beware" means that you can't actually
buy anything; the business always has it's best interest covered when
you sign away your rights. Getting businesses to agree to any consumer
rights usually means passing a law.

It sounds like if you get screwed you should at least write reviews at
whatever websites you can to let other people know your bad experience.
-
Martin

Vitaliy wrote:
> A couple of years ago a friend did a chargeback for a jet ski rental,
> because the jet skis he rented would not start when he brought them to the
> lake. The owner retaliated by claiming that the jet ski was rolled over
> (i.e., that he flooded the engine), and charged him $1200 (IIRC). The credit
> card company sided with the rental company.
>
> Vitaliy
>
>  

2008\08\19@142411 by Vitaliy

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Olin Lathrop wrote:
>> I just called a local dealer, and he told me that there are no such
>> mechanisms ("the watercraft is designed to operate in an upright
>> position") -- there are two air intakes, one in the front and one in
>> the back. The rider is responsible for turning the craft over within
>> 15 seconds to prevent water from entering the engine.
>
> 15 seconds is a surprisingly long time.  So what did they say would happen
> if water did get sucked into the air intake?  You might also show them the
> pictures and as if they think this is consistant with the craft getting
> rolled or some other cause.  The easiest way to get off the hook would be
> for Kawasaki to say the damage is not consitant with rider abuse.

I'm having a hard time finding a local dealer that doesn't also rent the jet
skis out (and is thus openly biased (not in my favor)). Perhaps I'm looking
in the wrong places...

I will try to call Kawasaki proper today, to see if they can point me in the
right direction.

Vitaliy

2008\08\19@142851 by Vitaliy

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Olin Lathrop wrote:
>> My second step would be to do a chargeback. What kind of proof would
>> I need to provide to the credit card company to convince them we're
>> innocent?
>>
>> The only remaining option I see, is taking the case to a small claims
>> court.
>
> Wait a minute.  You haven't already paid these people, have you?  That
> would
> have been really stupid.

The rental company put an authorization for $400 (the amount of the deposit)
on the card, but they haven't actually charged anything yet.

> If they charged the credit card for the damages,
> you need to immediately dispute the charge with the credit card company.
> You want it to be their burden (and hassle) of proof that you owe them.

That's the plan.

> Getting your money back after the fact will be much more difficult.

True.

Vitaliy


2008\08\19@150109 by Vitaliy

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Martin wrote:
> Did the rental cost him $1200 or did flooding the engine supposedly
> cause damage?

The rental company claimed that the damage was caused by flooding the
engine, so they made him pay for it. IMHO, the issue wasn't pressed hard
enough (for various reasons).

> Unfortunately it seems that "buyer beware" means that you can't actually
> buy anything; the business always has it's best interest covered when
> you sign away your rights. Getting businesses to agree to any consumer
> rights usually means passing a law.

It's difficult for me to share this point of view. As a believer in the free
market and a small business owner, I am always weary of the government
imposing additional regulations. Laws are no substitute for common sense nor
good morals, nor a guarantee that a consumer won't "get screwed".

FWIW, based on our company experience, the credit card company always sides
with the customer. We had a situation recently where a customer shipped back
a box that had some cables, but not the actual device (and the weight on the
shipping label reflected that). We notified the customer of the mistake, did
not get a reply, and so went ahead and charged his card for the difference.
He did a chargeback, and the credit card company let it stand. The next time
he placed an order (using a different name and address), we (naturally
enough) told him we won't do business with him, and all of a sudden he
"found" the $200 device that was missing from the box.

I recently told Forrest Christian that the position of the credit card
company makes perfect sense, as much as it may seem unfair from the POV of
the small business. The burden of proof should be on the business, not the
consumer. I just hope that in this particular case our credit card company
will act consistently. :-)

> It sounds like if you get screwed you should at least write reviews at
> whatever websites you can to let other people know your bad experience.

Have I mentioned that I've had other bad experiences? :) The detailed plan
for retaliation has been in place since the last time I've been taken
advantage of, and this time I am quite determined not to "let it go": it is
a matter of principle. At the same time, I really really hope it doesn't
come to that, but I am prepared.

Vitaliy

2008\08\19@151755 by Martin

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Vitaliy wrote:
> Martin wrote:
>  
>> Did the rental cost him $1200 or did flooding the engine supposedly
>> cause damage?
>>    
>
> The rental company claimed that the damage was caused by flooding the
> engine, so they made him pay for it. IMHO, the issue wasn't pressed hard
> enough (for various reasons).
>
>  
I used to work on a farm - flooded many small engines many times, never
caused any permanent damage - but I digress.

{Quote hidden}

I didn't say that the government should have to impose regulation. I
don't want to start talking about free markets again, but if this were
the point, I said "buyer beware" - if you don't want to sign the
contract, don't give them your money. Unfortunately the contract means
you've given away any rights what-so-ever. It's not equitable. Common
sense and good morals are neither common nor profitable.

{Quote hidden}

Please tell, I love a good fight.
-
Martin

2008\08\19@181905 by Sean Breheny

face picon face
On Tue, Aug 19, 2008 at 3:17 PM, Martin <KILLspammartinKILLspamspamnnytech.net> wrote:
> I used to work on a farm - flooded many small engines many times, never
> caused any permanent damage - but I digress.
>

Flooded with fuel or water?

Sean

2008\08\19@223714 by Vitaliy

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Closeup of the valve stem:

http://www.maksimov.org/jetski/valve_stem_closeup.JPG


2008\08\19@225227 by Jake Anderson

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comes up as a 404 for me
Vitaliy wrote:
> Closeup of the valve stem:
>
> http://www.maksimov.org/jetski/valve_stem_closeup.JPG
>
>
>  


2008\08\19@230002 by Richard Prosser

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404 for me also
RP

2008/8/20 Jake Anderson <RemoveMEjakeTakeThisOuTspamvapourforge.com>:
> comes up as a 404 for me
> Vitaliy wrote:
>> Closeup of the valve stem:
>>
>> www.maksimov.org/jetski/valve_stem_closeup.JPG
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> -

2008\08\19@234433 by Sean Breheny

face picon face
It did for me, too, and then I tried it with ".jpg" instead of ".JPG".
I guess it is case sensitive. Then it worked.

Sean


On Tue, Aug 19, 2008 at 10:59 PM, Richard Prosser <spamBeGonerhprosserspamBeGonespamgmail.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>> --

2008\08\20@035358 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>It did for me, too, and then I tried it with ".jpg" instead of ".JPG".
>I guess it is case sensitive. Then it worked.
>
>> Vitaliy wrote:
>>> Closeup of the valve stem:
>>>
>>> http://www.maksimov.org/jetski/valve_stem_closeup.JPG

Well, that seems to show that the stem was partially broken (like about 80%)
for a fair while before the valve 'fell off' ...

2008\08\20@090042 by Carl Denk

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Me too, changed JPG to lower case, OK, never had that issue, and that's
current Thunderbird and Firefox in Windows XP Pro. Saving file, renaming
upper case JPG, Saved as image from FF, windows explorer opened OK in
Irfanview, and then opening again in Irfanview was OK.

With a better picture, my comments on the color of the gasket face area
don't appear to be valid anymore, the color seems like good sealing all
around. The valve stem end is well battered, don't think a metallurgist
will learn anything with microscope there. Looks like the valve head
rattled in close to normal position before really causing damage.

Jake Anderson wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2008\08\20@091249 by Vitaliy

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face
Jake Anderson wrote:
> comes up as a 404 for me

My bad. I uploaded the image, noticed the uppercase "JPG", and renamed it
without updating the link. :(

http://www.maksimov.org/jetski/valve_stem_closeup.jpg

Vitaliy

PS Up early -- police knocked on the door around 5 am. A number of breakins
in the neighborhood (shattered car windows etc), wife's car broken into.
Garage opener inside, opened the garage (nothing stolen as far as we can
tell, although obvious they were inside). Stole a broken juicer, a portable
DVD player, and a silver candle holder from the car. Another thing to
discuss with our home insurance company (besides jet ski coverage).

2008\08\20@093425 by Vitaliy

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Carl Denk wrote:
> Me too, changed JPG to lower case, OK, never had that issue, and that's
> current Thunderbird and Firefox in Windows XP Pro. Saving file, renaming
> upper case JPG, Saved as image from FF, windows explorer opened OK in
> Irfanview, and then opening again in Irfanview was OK.

Sorry, filenames on the webserver are sensitive (I think it's an Apache
thing?).

> With a better picture, my comments on the color of the gasket face area
> don't appear to be valid anymore, the color seems like good sealing all
> around. The valve stem end is well battered, don't think a metallurgist
> will learn anything with microscope there. Looks like the valve head
> rattled in close to normal position before really causing damage.

So considering this latest evidence, what, in your opinion, is the "final
full story" of what happened? How do I explain (using the pictures and
engine theory) that the valve broke first, and then the water entered the
engine -- not the other way around, like the company claims?

Vitaliy


2008\08\20@120211 by Bob Blick

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flavicon
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On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 06:32:15 -0700, "Vitaliy" <RemoveMEspamspamTakeThisOuTmaksimov.org> said:

> > With a better picture, my comments on the color of the gasket face area
> > don't appear to be valid anymore, the color seems like good sealing all
> > around. The valve stem end is well battered, don't think a metallurgist
> > will learn anything with microscope there. Looks like the valve head
> > rattled in close to normal position before really causing damage.
>
> So considering this latest evidence, what, in your opinion, is the "final
> full story" of what happened? How do I explain (using the pictures and
> engine theory) that the valve broke first, and then the water entered the
> engine -- not the other way around, like the company claims?

Usually a small amount of water will do nothing, and a large amount will
bend a connecting rod. Never have I heard of water breaking an intake
valve. If there was a functioning rev limiter in place, there is no
reason why that valve should have broken specifically because of your
use.

Cheerful regards,

Bob

--
http://www.fastmail.fm - Or how I learned to stop worrying and
                         love email again

2008\08\20@123245 by olin piclist

face picon face
Bob Blick wrote:
> Usually a small amount of water will do nothing, and a large amount
> will bend a connecting rod. Never have I heard of water breaking an
> intake valve. If there was a functioning rev limiter in place, there
> is no
> reason why that valve should have broken specifically because of your
> use.

Another way to think about it is what could you do externally to the engine
as a ordinary user to break a valve stem if you wanted to?  There is nothing
I can think of that wouldn't cause other damage first.  Flooding the air
intake with water would probably stall the engine before any damage, but
even if not, I'd expect a bent crankshaft or piston rod, not a broken valve
stem.

Not doing oil changes at the proper intervals could eventually cause a valve
stem break, but that's not something the renter of a jet ski has any control
over.

Vitaliy, this is somewhat of a long shot, but try contacting Click and
Clack, the Tappett brothers, of "Car Talk".  This is exactly the kind of
thing they'd have a great time kicking around.  If you get them to say you
didn't cause the problem, the rental place will have a really tough time
arguing you owe them anything.  The lead time to get Click and Clack to talk
about this, if they do at all, may be too long for you though.  You should
be able to reach them thru WGBH radio in Cambridge MA or NPR.  Their real
names are something like Tom and Ray Miozzi.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2008\08\20@125451 by Paul Hutchinson

picon face
> -----Original Message-----
> From: piclist-bouncesEraseMEspam.....mit.edu [EraseMEpiclist-bouncesspammit.edu]On Behalf
> Of Olin Lathrop
> Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2008 12:35 PM
>
> Vitaliy, this is somewhat of a long shot, but try contacting Click and
> Clack, the Tappett brothers, of "Car Talk".  This is exactly the kind of
> thing they'd have a great time kicking around.  If you get them to say you
> didn't cause the problem, the rental place will have a really tough time
> arguing you owe them anything.  The lead time to get Click and
> Clack to talk
> about this, if they do at all, may be too long for you though.  You should
> be able to reach them thru WGBH radio in Cambridge MA or NPR.  Their real
> names are something like Tom and Ray Miozzi.

Small correction, they are at WBUR not WGBH.

Their web site is http://www.cartalk.com/, gotta love there copyright
notice:

Cartalk.com is a production of Dewey, Cheetham and Howe. Contents C 2007,
Dewey, Cheetham and Howe.

Paul Hutch

2008\08\20@130250 by Carl Denk

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face
I think what is said below and another post, nothing you could have done
external to the engine caused damage, sums it all up. Don't know whether
to  :) as solved, or :( as still have to fight. :)

Bob Blick wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2008\08\20@133548 by Vitaliy

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face
Olin Lathrop wrote:
> Another way to think about it is what could you do externally to the
> engine
> as a ordinary user to break a valve stem if you wanted to?  There is
> nothing
> I can think of that wouldn't cause other damage first.  Flooding the air
> intake with water would probably stall the engine before any damage, but
> even if not, I'd expect a bent crankshaft or piston rod, not a broken
> valve
> stem.

Yeah. The hard part is proving it to the other parties (rental place, CC
company, the judge). I'll keep you guys posted, if it gets past the CC
company I would really need an "expert opinion" that would stand up in
court.

> Vitaliy, this is somewhat of a long shot, but try contacting Click and
> Clack, the Tappett brothers, of "Car Talk".  This is exactly the kind of
> thing they'd have a great time kicking around.  If you get them to say you
> didn't cause the problem, the rental place will have a really tough time
> arguing you owe them anything.  The lead time to get Click and Clack to
> talk
> about this, if they do at all, may be too long for you though.  You should
> be able to reach them thru WGBH radio in Cambridge MA or NPR.  Their real
> names are something like Tom and Ray Miozzi.

I love their show! :-D  It's aired on the local NPR station every Sunday.
But frankly, I think I'd be too embarrassed to call them. :)

Vitaliy

2008\08\20@173446 by olin piclist

face picon face
Vitaliy wrote:
> I love their show! :-D  It's aired on the local NPR station every
> Sunday. But frankly, I think I'd be too embarrassed to call them. :)

I don't see shame in anything you've done as I understand it.

********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2008\08\20@182643 by Richard Prosser

picon face
Vitaliy ,

If it's the sort of program I 'm thinking it is, they are probably
looking for cases just like this to discuss. It covers a wide area of
topics at a variety of levels.:-

Rental company attitudes
Breakdown insurance
Failure analysis.
What happens when an engine ingests water - why it's a bad thing.
Metal fatigue issues.
Maintenance issues for IC engines - why regular oil changes and
service is required.
How to minimise the chance of getting into a situation like this -
what questions to ask, what action to take.
How to document events and get help when this situation arises.


RP

2008\08\20@182830 by Richard Prosser

picon face
2008/8/21 Richard Prosser <RemoveMErhprosserspam_OUTspamKILLspamgmail.com>:
{Quote hidden}

- And the free publicity generated make make the rental company keen
on the idea also, provided they are treated with a certain amount of
respect!.

RP

2008\08\21@160623 by Vitaliy

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Olin Lathrop wrote:
>> I love their show! :-D  It's aired on the local NPR station every
>> Sunday. But frankly, I think I'd be too embarrassed to call them. :)
>
> I don't see shame in anything you've done as I understand it.

No, but the factors contibuting to the embarrassment would be social
awkwardness and ESL. :)

2008\08\21@163111 by Bob Blick

face
flavicon
face
I've been on Click'n'Clack two times. It's fun, they are nice guys. But
it is entertainment, not a real diagnosis (they were not accurate either
time).

The show is taped on Wednesday from a group of prescreened callers that
they prearrange to be near a phone during the taping. They call you and
you are put on hold and you can hear them and the caller that precedes
you. They tape more callers than they need and keep the good ones. All
the calls I heard and participated in were edited before broadcast.

So you have nothing to fear. If you make it past Louie Cronin, you're
good enough, and if anything embarrassing or bad happens it'll either
get edited out or they just won't use your call.

By the way, so far I have called them four times. Of those four times I
was an alternate once and chosen twice.

Go for it! It's fun!

Cheerful regards,

Bob

On Thu, 21 Aug 2008 13:05:20 -0700, "Vitaliy" <RemoveMEspamTakeThisOuTspamspammaksimov.org> said:
> Olin Lathrop wrote:
> >> I love their show! :-D  It's aired on the local NPR station every
> >> Sunday. But frankly, I think I'd be too embarrassed to call them. :)
> >
> > I don't see shame in anything you've done as I understand it.
>
> No, but the factors contibuting to the embarrassment would be social
> awkwardness and ESL. :)

--
http://www.fastmail.fm - IMAP accessible web-mail

2008\08\22@032538 by Vitaliy

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face
Carl Denk wrote:
>I think what is said below and another post, nothing you could have done
> external to the engine caused damage, sums it all up. Don't know whether
> to  :) as solved, or :( as still have to fight. :)

Thank you everyone for your input, it is greatly and sincerely appreciated.

I sent an email to the owner today, we shall see whether they will accept
the evidence, or proceed with charging the "security deposit" card (in which
case the saga will continue).

Vitaliy


'[TECH] Jet ski -- possible ways for the water to g'
2008\09\11@003445 by Vitaliy
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face
Hi All,

The owner got the engine expected by a mechanic at another rental place:

http://www.maksimov.org/jetski/jetski_unlimited_fax.pdf

I have reasons to believe that there is a certain bias -- I called them a
couple of days after being presented with a bill for $2000, and was
basically told it was my fault the second I asked if there are other ways
for water to get inside the cylinders, except through the air intake :). It
probably doesn't help my case that Jetski Unlimited is also the place my
rental company gets its parts from.

Two days ago the owner and I spoke on the phone, and long story short, I was
told that they will eat the cost of repairs, but will never rent to me
again. They didn't have an explanation for the broken valve, or why there
would be "a very high level of water ... inside the hull".

I hope this will be the end of this saga. I'd like to thank everyone who
responded to my post. I owe you guys big time.

Sincerely,

Vitaliy

2008\09\11@132256 by Martin

face
flavicon
face
It sounds like there's no way of undeniably proving anything one way or
the other. Rental places should have a black box in the unit if they
expect to be able to place the cost of repairs on the renter.
The last two sentences (amongst others) of that fax are complete BS, IMO.

-
Martin

Vitaliy wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2008\09\11@151849 by Paul Anderson

face picon face
On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 12:28 AM, Vitaliy <EraseMEspamspamspamspamBeGonemaksimov.org> wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> The owner got the engine expected by a mechanic at another rental place:
>
> http://www.maksimov.org/jetski/jetski_unlimited_fax.pdf
>
>
Wow, he's got a unique perspective.  And I think that is the polite
wording.  I would *love* for somebody to tell me just how water in the
intake breaks the end off a valve.  I know a lot of ways for a valve
to break, but that's not one of them.  I'm inclined to say good
riddance with bad rubbish.  I wouldn't want to rent from them again.

--
Paul Anderson
VE3HOP
RemoveMEwackyvorlonKILLspamspamgmail.com
http://www.oldschoolhacker.com
QRP ARCI #13228, GQRP #12447

2008\09\11@195320 by Carl Denk

flavicon
face
Ditto! That engine ran awhile with the valve head bouncing off the valve
stem as is evidenced by the rounded valve stem end before the disc came
out of normal position parallel to the valve seat. But all this is water
over the dam, maybe the owner has passed under the Goat's Island bridge
at Niagara Falls (It's less than a mile of very fast moving water to the
point of sudden vertical acceleration due to gravity) which I'm sure is
a point of no return. Sounds like situation ended appropriately, just
took awhile and effort to get there.

Paul Anderson wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2008\09\11@210037 by Cedric Chang

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>>

This URL suggests that 20% of valve failures are due to manufacturing  
defects in the valve.

http://www.aa1car.com/library/ar1192.htm

2008\09\11@214413 by Cedric Chang

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face
Here is what one group did to alleviate sucking water into an engine

www.sportcompactcarweb.com/tech/0104scc_aem_air_bypass_valve/index.html

2008\09\12@011054 by Peter Todd

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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 07:53:12PM -0400, Carl Denk wrote:
> Ditto! That engine ran awhile with the valve head bouncing off the valve
> stem as is evidenced by the rounded valve stem end before the disc came
> out of normal position parallel to the valve seat. But all this is water
> over the dam, maybe the owner has passed under the Goat's Island bridge
> at Niagara Falls (It's less than a mile of very fast moving water to the
> point of sudden vertical acceleration due to gravity) which I'm sure is
> a point of no return. Sounds like situation ended appropriately, just
> took awhile and effort to get there.

Reading this thread I couldn't help but think how my dad and I went
canoeing last week at Killarney provincial park. We rented a
top-of-the-line kevlar canoe for the day, which along with about 30
other canoes was stored in an unattended forest clearing next to the
waterfront and "protected" by a rusty chain and padlock. Total cost
including paddles, lifejackets and a bailer, $20, and I suspect if we
had showed up the next day with a broken canoe they'd just be curious as
to how the heck we did it and glad we didn't need a rescue!


Fuel is pretty cheap too. With two of us the 20km took about 4 hours.
Now at 336 calories/hour for the two of us you get 2688 calories, 2.8MJ,
or about $5.70 worth of granola. (bought in bulk, we're avid) Now while
the equivilent meal of gasoline would cost about $0.10, (34.6MJ/L,
$1.2/L) the jet ski to us it with will be getting something like
1km/litre, dependent on speed of course, so figure something like $20
each, buying us 1.3GJ of energy, a little under 500x more energy than
the canoe and leaving no money for a nice dinner afterwords let alone a
trip to MEC to buy some "much needed" outdoor gear.

Of course, all this just gets worse when father and son start racing
each other...

- --
http://petertodd.org 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org
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