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'[TECH] Drawing tool (aka CAD) for doing product dr'
2010\03\31@165138 by Forrest W Christian

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I'm again trying to get to the point of being able to produce some
decent product drawings for manuals and the like....

I'd really like to be able to import/use the 2D/3D cad drawings
available from most of my suppliers in either .dwg, .dxf or .pdf to
produce a 'real' line or possibly 3d-shaded drawings of the products,
and then be able to show wiring options.

Of course, I'd love to just buy a copy of soldworks, but I have a hard
time justifying the estimated $4K price tag for the product.  So I'm
looking for something not nearly as expensive.   I'm ok with spending
money on the right tool for the job, assuming it will really work for
me.   I've downloaded and tried several, but they all seem to come with
their own set of issues, and not nearly enough functionality and/or ease
of use to make them worthwhile.

So, my question is, what tools should I be looking at to do these type
of product diagrams?

-forrest


2010\03\31@195944 by Carl Denk

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I have been using CMS Intellicad for some years. I started with Autocad
V2.17, and the Intellicad is very close to Autocad, including same
drawing formats, commands, etc.
http://intellicadms.com/site/products.html

If you want solids, you will want to consider the Pro version @ $239.95
One of the neat things I like, is import a raster file (think JPG, and
many others), scale it to real dimensions, then draw on top of it. For
circuit drawings, I screen grab or scan a pin out of a chip with labels,
and draw the circuit to the pins. Support isn't the greatest, but online
help is good, and there are several forms. There are other vendors in
addition to CMS, but I have been with them for maybe 10 years.

If you are familiar with Autocad, you will be up to speed quickly. If
not, just like a lot of things with many features that make life easy,
there will be a learning curve. Many times local schools offer autocad
classes, would be well worth while, and then there are on line, might
try googling Autocad or ACAD tutorial.

On 3/31/2010 4:51 PM, Forrest W Christian wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2010\03\31@204619 by M.L.

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On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 4:51 PM, Forrest W Christian <spam_OUTforrestcTakeThisOuTspamimach.com> wrote:

> Of course, I'd love to just buy a copy of soldworks, but I have a hard
> time justifying the estimated $4K price tag for the product.  So I'm
> looking for something not nearly as expensive.

Only $4k? The last time I looked (iirc) it was more like $14k

--
Martin K.

2010\03\31@213037 by Jake Anderson

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Forrest W Christian wrote:
{Quote hidden}

rhinocad is a pretty handy cad package, has addons for most things and
its not excessively priced.
no FEA stuff though.

2010\03\31@213921 by Vitaliy

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M.L. wrote:
>> Of course, I'd love to just buy a copy of soldworks, but I have a hard
>> time justifying the estimated $4K price tag for the product. So I'm
>> looking for something not nearly as expensive.
>
> Only $4k? The last time I looked (iirc) it was more like $14k

$4.5k sounds about right for the base version.

Vitaliy

2010\03\31@215356 by jim

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We bought the OFFICE PRO version (middle of the lineup) a couple of years
ago and it was around $7K plus about $1400.00 per year for maintenance.

Jim

{Original Message removed}


'[TECH] Drawing tool (aka CAD) for doing product dr'
2010\04\01@022052 by Forrest W Christian
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The 'standard' edition MSRP is '$4K' and renewal subscriptions is
$1.3K.  Waiting for a 'real' price from a reseller though...

There are full simulation packages which do go way up in price... but I
really only need the low-end package.

On 3/31/2010 6:45 PM, M.L. wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2010\04\01@073754 by Russell McMahon

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> > Of course, I'd love to just buy a copy of soldworks, but I have a hard
> > time justifying the estimated $4K price tag for the product.  So I'm
> > looking for something not nearly as expensive.

> Only $4k? The last time I looked (iirc) it was more like $14k

I think it was about $40 in Apilu Street :-).

Photos were taken (very very covertly).

Nothing was bought, of course :-)

Police didn't raid. I'm told they may do so several times a day, but
system is set up to make them raid proof
An interesting experience.



            Russell

2010\04\01@123127 by Vitaliy

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It can be had for $0 (assuming free bandwidth). An acquaintance torrented
the latest version and justified it by explaining that (A) he is not using
it for commercial purposes and (B) Solidworks is more likely to have him (or
his employer) as a paying customer in the future once he becomes proficient.


{Original Message removed}

2010\04\01@135732 by M.L.

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On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 12:30 PM, Vitaliy <piclistspamKILLspammaksimov.org> wrote:
> It can be had for $0 (assuming free bandwidth). An acquaintance torrented
> the latest version and justified it by explaining that (A) he is not using
> it for commercial purposes and (B) Solidworks is more likely to have him (or
> his employer) as a paying customer in the future once he becomes proficient.
>
>

I've never "borrowed" a copy of it but I am proficient in it from
college courses.

I really like what it can do but there's no way I will pay
(apparently) $4k to use it once in a while. I understand that the
developers need to make a living but IMO they should have a sliding
scale for those of us who are going to use it only a very small
amount. Maybe charge by the hour or something? If I was actively
working on a mechanical part, I'd pay $20 an hour to use it (they'd
probably want $50 then, I'm cheap.)

--
Martin K.

2010\04\01@142246 by M. Adam Davis

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Have you considered google sketchup?  It's free for the regular
version, and does shading, etc.

Perhaps not ideal, but it's easy enough to work with, and may meet your needs.

-Adam

On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 4:51 PM, Forrest W Christian <.....forrestcKILLspamspam.....imach.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>

2010\04\01@150333 by Vitaliy

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"M.L." wrote:
> I really like what it can do but there's no way I will pay
> (apparently) $4k to use it once in a while. I understand that the
> developers need to make a living but IMO they should have a sliding
> scale for those of us who are going to use it only a very small
> amount.

I agree. But then again -- it's their software and they can do what want
with it.

Vitaliy

2010\04\01@150557 by Tamas Rudnai

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On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 7:22 PM, M. Adam Davis <EraseMEstienmanspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTgmail.com> wrote:

> Have you considered google sketchup?  It's free for the regular
> version, and does shading, etc.
>

Yes, I was thinking to bring this up as well, but not sure if you can
replace a CAD with that? I mean can you draw entering x/y/z position and
length of the line, the centre and radius of a circuit etc instead of
clicking with mouse only? Or is there any other way to draw with accuracy?

BTW there is QCad as well. Also I was using lightly TurboCad and is quite
good -- do not know if that makes photo realistic 3D models, I just needed
for traditional sketches.

Thanks
Tamas



{Quote hidden}

2010\04\01@152044 by Gordon Williams

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I use QCAD for 2D drafting.  It wasn't that expensive, and works with dwg
files.  I got my copy a few years ago and haven't updated.  It is fine for
my uses.

For schematics you would be better off with something like Eagle.  That
works for me too.

Regards,

Gordon Williams


{Original Message removed}

2010\04\01@153747 by M.L.

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On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 3:03 PM, Vitaliy <@spam@piclistKILLspamspammaksimov.org> wrote:
> "M.L." wrote:
>> I really like what it can do but there's no way I will pay
>> (apparently) $4k to use it once in a while. I understand that the
>> developers need to make a living but IMO they should have a sliding
>> scale for those of us who are going to use it only a very small
>> amount.
>
> I agree. But then again -- it's their software and they can do what want
> with it.
>
> Vitaliy

I'm not sure why you need to reinforce the obvious. It certainly is
their property to do with whatever they like.
--
Martin K.

2010\04\01@155311 by Dwayne Reid

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At 01:05 PM 4/1/2010, Tamas Rudnai wrote:

>BTW there is QCad as well. Also I was using lightly TurboCad and is quite
>good -- do not know if that makes photo realistic 3D models, I just needed
>for traditional sketches.

Has anyone considered CorelDraw?  Its what we have been using for the
past couple of decades or so - it seems to work well and certainly
the metal fabrication shops haven't told us of any problems when they
manufacture our metalwork.

Most of us are using CorelDraw  X3 but we have two seats with Corel
Designer X4.  I've just purchased a copy of CorelDraw X5 but its not
installed on any machine yet.

You can purchase legitimate copies of CorelDraw on eBay for less than
a hundred bucks.  That's where most of our licenses have come from
and Corel has verified each of those as being legitimate.

Do be careful - there are LOTS of sellers who are selling pirated
software.  We now tell each seller that we will be verifying the
product that they sell to us with Corel and give them the chance to
back out of the deal if they suddenly become reluctant to complete
the transaction.  We follow-up with that promise - we do indeed check
each Corel product purchased on eBay with Corel to ensure that the
package is legitimate.  I've had to request a refund only one time.

I'm not one of the regular users of CorelDraw - I barely know how to
turn it on <grin>.  But even I can use it to create a drawing which
is then used to generate a toolpath for our little CNC mill.  I find
it to be a shockingly powerful package.

dwayne


--
Dwayne Reid   <KILLspamdwaynerKILLspamspamplanet.eon.net>
Trinity Electronics Systems Ltd    Edmonton, AB, CANADA
(780) 489-3199 voice          (780) 487-6397 fax
http://www.trinity-electronics.com
Custom Electronics Design and Manufacturing

2010\04\01@183808 by VictorF

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alibre design starts at $99.00
Viacad starts at ~$100.
victor
----- Original Message -----
From: "M. Adam Davis" <RemoveMEstienmanTakeThisOuTspamgmail.com>
To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <spamBeGonepiclistspamBeGonespammit.edu>
Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 2:22 PM
Subject: Re: [TECH] Drawing tool (aka CAD) for doing product drawings and
schematics.


Have you considered google sketchup?  It's free for the regular
version, and does shading, etc.

Perhaps not ideal, but it's easy enough to work with, and may meet your
needs.

-Adam

On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 4:51 PM, Forrest W Christian <TakeThisOuTforrestcEraseMEspamspam_OUTimach.com>
wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -

2010\04\01@190405 by Carl Denk

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Just a reminder, that the request included to be able to work with DWG,
DXF, which limits to Autocad and it's look a likes. PDF is generally
used to send a finished drawing to others in a format that can not be
altered, except notes may be added, i.e an architectural drawing may be
DWG, but for reference and approval by others, many times PDF is used.

On 4/1/2010 6:38 PM, VictorF wrote:
> alibre design starts at $99.00
> Viacad starts at ~$100.
> victor
> {Original Message removed}

2010\04\01@212616 by Vitaliy

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"M.L." wrote:
>>> I really like what it can do but there's no way I will pay
>>> (apparently) $4k to use it once in a while. I understand that the
>>> developers need to make a living but IMO they should have a sliding
>>> scale for those of us who are going to use it only a very small
>>> amount.
>>
>> I agree. But then again -- it's their software and they can do what want
>> with it.
>>
>> Vitaliy
>
> I'm not sure why you need to reinforce the obvious. It certainly is
> their property to do with whatever they like.

I like stating the obvious, I guess. Does it bother you?

Vitaliy

2010\04\01@213330 by Vitaliy

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part 1 1747 bytes content-type:text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; (decoded 7bit)

Dwayne Reid wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Excellent point, Dwayne. We use CorelDraw for tech drawings, but I
completely forgot about it. Typically we create PDFs to send to
manufacturers, but it does allow exporting directly to DXF.

Can anyone w/ Autocad open the attachment?

Vitaliy


part 2 24810 bytes content-type:application/octet-stream; (decode)

part 3 35 bytes content-type:text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
(decoded 7bit)

2010\04\01@222418 by Xiaofan Chen

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--0016364ee308141c51048337add5
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 9:32 AM, Vitaliy <RemoveMEpiclistspamTakeThisOuTmaksimov.org> wrote:

> Can anyone w/ Autocad open the attachment?

I do not have Autocad but under Ubuntu Linux 9.10, I can
open the files with the free QCAD. The drawing is
has PICLIST on it.

I am not so sure if QCAD is good or not (never used it),
the attached png file is exported from QCAD from
your dxf file.


--
Xiaofan http://mcuee.blogspot.com

--0016364ee308141c51048337add5
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2010\04\02@082405 by Carl Denk

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Intellicad Pro opened it from attachment (not saved to HDD) as an
imported raster image. The image is scalable and you can move it, copy,
etc., just like any other raster object.  Intellicad is a much lower
cost ($350 for the pro version, ~$150 for the regular version) Autocad
clone, in actuality, will work with older DWG/DXF files than Autocad
later versions. Also IRFANVIEW opened the attachment, and could have
saved as JPG, or many other formats.

On 4/1/2010 10:24 PM, Xiaofan Chen wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2010\04\02@141848 by RANDY ABERNATHY

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You can purchase a brand new seat of DesignCad 3D MAX, which will do pretty much anything you want for drafting purposes (it is by IMSI which does TurboCAD) for $99.00 online and I think you can still download it after payment so you get it instantly.  I can recommend this product as I used it for years, starting in the DOS days.  Although I now use AutoCAD for most of my engineering work (mainly because most of my clients use it and it is just easier to exchange drawings when needed), I still use DesignCad for quickies, it is just plain easy to use and there is a large library of symbols included, or at leas there was with the last version I purchased.  Go to http://www.designcad.com and check it out.  I can assure you it is far better to use for engineering and design than any type of OFFICE software.  Now if you are looking for something free, I don't know that I can help out there.
 
Good Luck
 

Randy Abernathy
CNC and Industrial Machinery
service, repair, installation and
design

4626 Old Stilesboro Rd NW
Acworth, GA 30101
Fax: 770-974-5295
Phone: 678-982-0235
E-mail:
EraseMErandyabernathyspambellsouth.net

--- On Fri, 4/2/10, Carl Denk <RemoveMEcdenkEraseMEspamEraseMEwindstream.net> wrote:


From: Carl Denk <RemoveMEcdenkspam_OUTspamKILLspamwindstream.net>
Subject: Re: [TECH] Drawing tool (aka CAD) for doing product drawingsand schematics.
To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <RemoveMEpiclistTakeThisOuTspamspammit.edu>
Date: Friday, April 2, 2010, 12:21 PM


Opening with Open Office draw 2.4:
A plain 2D drawing opened OK (didn't try modifying it) from a 2007 ASCI
DXF file
A 3D drawing did not open from a 2007 ASCI or Binary DXF file

There is a DXF selection on the "OPEN" window, but appears very limited.
Over the years I haven't found anything that really works except
Autocad, or one of the clones, and those don't support all the commands

On 4/2/2010 11:34 AM, Michael Watterson wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>   

2010\04\02@142535 by Vitaliy

face
flavicon
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Xiaofan Chen wrote:
>> Can anyone w/ Autocad open the attachment?
>
> I do not have Autocad but under Ubuntu Linux 9.10, I can
> open the files with the free QCAD. The drawing is
> has PICLIST on it.
>
> I am not so sure if QCAD is good or not (never used it),
> the attached png file is exported from QCAD from
> your dxf file.

Looks pretty good. I assume the blue squares are nodes that you can drag?

Vitaliy

2010\04\03@004922 by Tobias Gogolin

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If Forrest is interested in SolidW  he should like Alibre because it is also
a 3D parametric history based modeler!
Can you still get a year free trial of it? I remember later it would cost
$1500 for the license!

Has Autocad ever gotten into parametric modeling?
They should have from the beginning, after all Ivan Sutherland certainly
made waves in 1963 with his MIT doctoral project Sketchpad which the AutoCAD
programmers must have failed to learn about!
PTC (PArametric Technology Corporation) later did ~6 years after Autocad's
birth...

On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 3:38 PM, VictorF <EraseMEvictorf57spamspamspamBeGonecox.net> wrote:

> alibre design starts at $99.00
> Viacad starts at ~$100.
> victor
> {Original Message removed}

2010\04\03@084811 by Carl Denk

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On 4/3/2010 12:49 AM, Tobias Gogolin wrote:
>
> Has Autocad ever gotten into parametric modeling?
>    
Not sure what parametric modeling is, could someone enlighten me. If it
would be in Autocad terms, I would clearly understand, but would
appreciate any comments.
> PTC (PArametric Technology Corporation) later did ~6 years after Autocad's
> birth...
>    

Autocad V2.17 was in late 70's, ran on the early IBM "AT", with a QDP
"VIVA" card, designed and made in Cleveland, Oh., so that would make PTC
mid 1980's?

2010\04\03@132647 by Tobias Gogolin

picon face
I have to dig up this timeline spreadsheet that I one made for a
presentation about the future of design and computation. I'd like to offer
it to be collaborated on to extend it to whoever sends me an email
requesting, it contains things like technology, transistors, DRAM densities,
mayor CPUs, FPGA, Compilers, OSs and CAD tools...

I remember to have found autocad ~1980/81 and PTC 1987


On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 5:48 AM, Carl Denk <RemoveMEcdenkKILLspamspamwindstream.net> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> -

2010\04\03@141355 by Paul Hutchinson

picon face
> -----Original Message-----
> From: piclist-bouncesSTOPspamspamspam_OUTmit.edu On Behalf Of Tobias Gogolin
> Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 1:27 PM
>
> I have to dig up this timeline spreadsheet that I one made for a
> presentation about the future of design and computation. I'd like to offer
> it to be collaborated on to extend it to whoever sends me an email
> requesting, it contains things like technology, transistors, DRAM
> densities,
> mayor CPUs, FPGA, Compilers, OSs and CAD tools...

This sounds like a good use for a Google Docs spreadsheet and you could make
a nice Simile Timeline from the data.
http://www.simile-widgets.org/timeline/

>
> I remember to have found autocad ~1980/81 and PTC 1987
>
>
> On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 5:48 AM, Carl Denk <spamBeGonecdenkSTOPspamspamEraseMEwindstream.net> wrote:
>
> > Autocad V2.17 was in late 70's, ran on the early IBM "AT", with a QDP
> > "VIVA" card, designed and made in Cleveland, Oh., so that would make PTC
> > mid 1980's?

AutoCAD V1.0 was released December 1982, V2.17 would likely have been
between May 1985 (V2.1 release) and June 1986 (V2.5 release). The IBM PC AT
came out in 1984.

PTC was founded in 1985 and the first release of their flagship product,
Pro/Engineer, shipped in 1988.

Paul Hutch

2010\04\03@153435 by Tobias Gogolin

picon face
Interesting, are you implying that google docs could be used
to collaborate on spreadsheet, and then that that widget could be used to
create this attractive scrollable view?

For Spanish speakers here is the presentation I mentioned
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6S1qn-JtW0
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6S1qn-JtW0>

On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 11:13 AM, Paul Hutchinson
<KILLspampaullhutchinsonspamBeGonespamyahoo.com>wrote:

> > {Original Message removed}

2010\04\03@160545 by Tobias Gogolin

picon face
I almost forgot if 2D is good enough for you there is the 2D version of
SolidEdge that has been made free and provides a parametric mode and an acad
like mode ...
www.google.com/search?client=gmail&rls=gm&q=free%20solidedge
<http://www.google.com/search?client=gmail&rls=gm&q=free%20solidedge>

On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 1:51 PM, Forrest W Christian <EraseMEforrestcspamEraseMEimach.com>wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> -

2010\04\03@211000 by Paul Hutchinson

picon face
> -----Original Message-----
> From: @spam@piclist-bounces@spam@spamspam_OUTmit.edu On Behalf Of Tobias Gogolin
> Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 3:35 PM
>
>
> Interesting, are you implying that google docs could be used
> to collaborate on spreadsheet, and then that that widget could be used to
> create this attractive scrollable view?

Yes, I think it would work well and be very cool! There is a Simile-Timeline
Gadget that can be directly added inside Google Docs but, I've not tried it
yet.

I have used OpenOffice Calc with a custom function I wrote to generate JSON
data for my timelines.
Here's a sample spreadsheet I wrote to demonstrate the function:
http://www.paulhutch.com/timelines/TimelineJSONsample.ods

For security Calc by default won't allow custom functions to run. This
spreadsheet has instructions and tips for working with custom functions in
OOCalc:
http://www.paulhutch.com/download/FunctionDemos.ods

This is a timeline I use for history research and the spreadsheet I use to
create the data file.
www.paulhutch.com/timelines/uk_monarchy/monarchy_timeline.html
http://www.paulhutch.com/timelines/uk_monarchy/UKMonarchsTimeline.ods

Here's a short article I wrote with more info on timelines and an example of
creating a photo timeline based on EXIF data from the photos:
http://paulhutch.com/wordpress/?p=522

Paul Hutch

2010\04\07@194237 by Tobias Gogolin

picon face
Ok, lets see what happens if everybody how has this link:
spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AofU4jiFbC6ddG1kdERfSk5RMVZQd2RiYjFBeHMtZFE&hl=en
can edit this file!?

I wonder if there is CVS control or how the collaboration can be managed?

Later we look into the graphing widget, OK!


On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 6:09 PM, Paul Hutchinson
<spamBeGonepaullhutchinsonspamKILLspamyahoo.com>wrote:

> > {Original Message removed}

2010\04\08@072148 by Tony Vandiver

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face
I don't seem to have any trouble editing it, and changes seem persistent
even though there is no File->Save (added "editable" on sheets 3 and
added a sheet4 with "editable" on it)

Tony


Tobias Gogolin wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>>> {Original Message removed}

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