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'[TECH]:: Swimming World Records - Swimsuit or Swim'
2009\11\18@090505 by Marechiare

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What really is the reason of current swimming world records, the
technology of swimsuits or swimming technique? Anybody got the idea?

Thanks.

2009\11\18@094140 by Tamas Rudnai

face picon face
As far as I know the suit helps to remove the turbulences on the
laminar flow -- also it depends on the pool as some pool is deeper
which also helps (waves reflecting from the floor).

Tamas


On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 2:05 PM, Marechiare <spam_OUTmarechiareTakeThisOuTspamgmail.com> wrote:
> What really is the reason of current swimming world records, the
> technology of swimsuits or swimming technique? Anybody got the idea?
>
> Thanks.
> -

2009\11\18@135155 by Chris McSweeny

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If you're asking why so many have been set recently, then that is
almost certainly because of the suit technology, given that the latest
suits have a very significant effect on times (in the context of how
much world records are normally broken by). Whilst technique is
doubtless gradually improving, that's far too slow a process to
account for the number of recent records. Arguably if you want to
break it down more, there's probably more advance in conditioning than
in technique amongst top swimmers (the very best doubtless already
have almost "perfect" technique) - though if you're not an elite
swimmer the chances are you can make bigger improvements by improving
your technique than by either getting fitter or getting a high-tech
swimsuit.

Chris

On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 2:05 PM, Marechiare <.....marechiareKILLspamspam@spam@gmail.com> wrote:
> What really is the reason of current swimming world records, the
> technology of swimsuits or swimming technique? Anybody got the idea?
>
> Thanks.
> -

2009\11\19@111833 by Marechiare

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> If you're asking why so many have been set
> recently, then that is almost certainly because
> of the suit technology,

Yes, but the thread is about how much "almost certainly".

2009\11\19@121523 by Tamas Rudnai

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On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 4:18 PM, Marechiare <marechiarespamKILLspamgmail.com> wrote:
>> If you're asking why so many have been set
>> recently, then that is almost certainly because
>> of the suit technology,
>
> Yes, but the thread is about how much "almost certainly".

We are talking about tens of seconds here -- maybe hundreds.

Tamas


> -

2009\11\19@144654 by Marechiare

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>>> If you're asking why so many have been set
>>> recently, then that is almost certainly because
>>> of the suit technology,
>>
>> Yes, but the thread is about how much "almost
>> certainly".
>
> We are talking about tens of seconds here -- maybe
> hundreds.

Under "how much 'almost certainly'?" I meant not seconds, I meant that
he reserves some chance that the records were not due to the suit
technology. Thus, how much is he uncertain that the records were due
to some other factors?

Yes, polyurethane swimsuit will be banned in 2010. What should we
expect then, no new records in ages? Or some swimmers will keep on
making records? That's the question.

2009\11\19@190658 by Vitaliy

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Tamas Rudnai wrote:
>>> If you're asking why so many have been set
>>> recently, then that is almost certainly because
>>> of the suit technology,
>>
>> Yes, but the thread is about how much "almost certainly".
>
> We are talking about tens of seconds here -- maybe hundreds.

I'm sure we're not talking about either. ;)

Vitaliy

2009\11\19@205038 by Chris McSweeny

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We're talking about multiple tenths of seconds, possibly even whole
seconds for longer events. The advantage is that significant.

There will doubtless still be some records when the swimsuits are
banned, given that you will get some superior athletes coming through
afterwards, but the rate will be lower than it was before these suits
came in, and some records will doubtless stand for a long time. My
only lack of certainty is over the possibility that some of the
records have been set by athletes who are markedly better than the
rest of their generation, so would have been setting these records
anyway.

Chris

On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 5:14 PM, Tamas Rudnai <.....tamas.rudnaiKILLspamspam.....gmail.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>> --

2009\11\20@095754 by Marechiare

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> There will doubtless still be some records when the
> swimsuits are banned, given that you will get some
> superior athletes coming through afterwards, but the
> rate will be lower than it was before these suits came
> in, and some records will doubtless stand for a long
> time.

Yes, I think you are right.

> My only lack of certainty is over the possibility that
> some of the records have been set by athletes who
> are markedly better than the rest of their generation,
> so would have been setting these records anyway.

"markedly better" is too vague. First class swimmers' techniques
differ greatly, as for me, from what I've checked out on YouTube. And,
at any moment we may expect a new combination of  technique /
mental-physical partameters to step down the timings.

2009\11\20@105637 by Tamas Rudnai

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Why were those clothes banned btw?

Should not they ban all special clothings in other sports, like funny
helmets on cyclists, the curved poles used by skiers and even the
shoes with spikes used by many different sports like in soccer, golf,
running etc?

Tamas


On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 2:57 PM, Marechiare <marechiarespamspam_OUTgmail.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>

2009\11\20@150351 by Marechiare

picon face
> Why were those clothes banned btw?
>
> Should not they ban all special clothings in other sports,
> like funny helmets on cyclists, the curved poles used by
> skiers and even the shoes with spikes used by many
> different sports like in soccer, golf, running etc?

Is it a rhetorical question? :-)

2009\11\20@164530 by Chris McSweeny

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The general rule seems to be that those things which enhance the sport
tend to be allowed (I'd definitely include spiked shoes in that
category, as they help athletes put down the power and prevent injury,
probably curved poles also due to improved ergonomics), along with
some of those which only make you faster, but don't have any
significant downsides (aero bike helmets). These swimsuits don't do
anything to enhance the sport - they make you faster, but that doesn't
make swimming any more fun or easier to learn. Meanwhile they have
significant disadvantages, including price, durability and the
difficulty of putting them on and off.

Chris

On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 3:56 PM, Tamas Rudnai <@spam@tamas.rudnaiKILLspamspamgmail.com> wrote:
> Why were those clothes banned btw?
>
> Should not they ban all special clothings in other sports, like funny
> helmets on cyclists, the curved poles used by skiers and even the
> shoes with spikes used by many different sports like in soccer, golf,
> running etc?
>
> Tamas

2009\11\20@172414 by Russell McMahon

face picon face
>> Should not they ban all special clothings in other sports, like funny
>> helmets on cyclists, the curved poles used by skiers and even the
>> shoes with spikes used by many different sports like in soccer, golf,
>> running etc?

> The general rule seems to be that those things which enhance the sport
> tend to be allowed (I'd definitely include spiked shoes in that
> category, as they help athletes put down the power and prevent injury,

But some athletes (notably Kenyan's AFAIR) at one stage ran world
records in BARE feet against players in footwear of their choice.
(Dimming memory offers ?Kipshank Keno?). It seems there to be that
many benefit from the innovation BUT it's not a necessary one for
success.

Some sports have controls re what is allowed in order to keep the
sport standardised.

Golf is an excellent example. A golf course is standardised to par 72.
It is expected that a good player accustomed to wearing plus 4's and
using wooden shafted clubs would, after getting over the culture
shock, have about the same handicap with modern equipment on the same
course, once he got used to the new (inferior ? :-) ) equipment.

Any new introductions in golf which genuinely lift the ability to
perform are banned once this is proven. Two examples are the "between
the legs" putter ("Sam Sneed"?) and a version of golf ball with a
definite improvement in aerodynamic carry. Once these were shown to
definitely work their faces were seen no more. Certainly some
innovations may work for some people but be of low enough mean effect
as to keep them legal. There are probably ways of optimising equipment
that would help the Tyger* that would not overly assist the average
player.

When it comes to swim suits - PERHAPS copyright, branding, advertising
and IP rights are part of the issue. If you can only buy the gear from
one supplier who has patented the system then the sport is subject to
commercial distortion. (As opposed to eg shoes with swooshes on them
that perhaps only apparently make you run faster :-) ).



             Russell

* Blake's imagery seems entirely apposite to him.
I suspect he's an alien - closest golfer to Beetlebomb that I ever heard of.
Sometimes doesn't make the cut.
Just makes the cut and YOU can almost always forget winning.
What if he played like that consistently?

2009\11\20@181837 by Tamas Rudnai

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On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 9:45 PM, Chris McSweeny <KILLspamcpmcsweenyKILLspamspamgmail.com> wrote:
> The general rule seems to be that those things which enhance the sport
> tend to be allowed (I'd definitely include spiked shoes in that
> category, as they help athletes put down the power and prevent injury,

I know, actually spikes are a great invention. As far as I know the
Hungarian soccer team, the "Golden Team" lost the world cup against
Germany in 1954 because of Germans already had the spikes and it was
raining. With the normal shoes it was only possible to sliding or
standing still, but this latter could not considered as football game
:-).

> probably curved poles also due to improved ergonomics), along with
> some of those which only make you faster, but don't have any
> significant downsides (aero bike helmets). These swimsuits don't do
> anything to enhance the sport - they make you faster, but that doesn't
> make swimming any more fun or easier to learn.

Helmets does not make to learn biking easier but makes them faster, right? ;-)

Ok, biking is a kind of technical sport, so it is not comparable to
swimming. But what is the point when we can say a sport is technical?
Is ski technical? They use the ski and it does make difference if you
have a better ski or curved pole or even if you have a better wax on
your ski. Is golf technical? As the club and the ball makes
significant difference. And is swimming technical, if the clothing
makes that much difference? :-)

Tamas
--
/* http://www.mcuhobby.com */ int main() { char *a,*s,*q; printf(s="/*
http://www.mcuhobby.com */ int main() { char *a,*s,*q; printf(s=%s%s%s,
q=%s%s%s%s,s,q,q,a=%s%s%s%s,q,q,q,a,a,q); }",
q="\"",s,q,q,a="\\",q,q,q,a,a,q); }

2009\11\20@182421 by Tamas Rudnai

face picon face
On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 10:23 PM, Russell McMahon <RemoveMEapptechnzTakeThisOuTspamgmail.com> wrote:
> But some athletes (notably Kenyan's AFAIR) at one stage ran world
> records in BARE feet against players in footwear of their choice.

I guess shoes makes significant difference only at certain conditions.
Conditions could be weather, road surface and distance. I have
mentioned the Hungarian soccer team in the previous post as an example
of weather condition (which changes the surface), but also if you do a
Marathon then I guess it makes huge difference what is on your feet?

> When it comes to swim suits - PERHAPS copyright, branding, advertising
> and IP rights are part of the issue. If you can only buy the gear from
> one supplier who has patented the system then the sport is subject to
> commercial distortion. (As opposed to eg shoes with swooshes on them
> that perhaps only apparently make you run faster :-) ).

That actually makes perfect sense. I did not know it was supplied only
by one particular brand.

Tamas
--
/* http://www.mcuhobby.com */ int main() { char *a,*s,*q; printf(s="/*
http://www.mcuhobby.com */ int main() { char *a,*s,*q; printf(s=%s%s%s,
q=%s%s%s%s,s,q,q,a=%s%s%s%s,q,q,q,a,a,q); }",
q="\"",s,q,q,a="\\",q,q,q,a,a,q); }

2009\11\27@145915 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
Tamas Rudnai wrote:

> Ok, biking is a kind of technical sport, so it is not comparable to
> swimming. But what is the point when we can say a sport is technical?
> Is ski technical? They use the ski and it does make difference if you
> have a better ski or curved pole or even if you have a better wax on
> your ski. Is golf technical? As the club and the ball makes
> significant difference. And is swimming technical, if the clothing
> makes that much difference? :-)

I think for pretty much all sports, technology can make a difference.
But for some sports, it is possible to rule out technological
differences and still keep the idea of the sport, while for others,
that's just not possible.

With swimming, running and wrestling, for example, technology can be
completely ruled out. (Do it naked... :)

With biking and skiing, it just can't be... you can't ride bike without
a bike :), so you need technology here. Of course, one could require a
standard bike, a standard ski, etc., but that would take the big runners
(financiers) out of that sport. And the competitions with
non-standardized equipment would surpass the ones with standardized
equipment in popularity by so much that they would die a quick death. I
think.

So it's probably basically a matter of popularity. Like most things. (I
stop now, because when popularity comes into play, this is almost there
with politics and religion... :)

Gerhard

2009\11\27@154642 by Tamas Rudnai

face picon face
On Fri, Nov 27, 2009 at 7:58 PM, Gerhard Fiedler
<spamBeGonelistsspamBeGonespamconnectionbrazil.com> wrote:
> With swimming, running and wrestling, for example, technology can be
> completely ruled out. (Do it naked... :)

That actually would make a huge difference in wrestling for sure -- I
would not let a naked guy to get behind me for sure :-)

Tamas
--
/* http://www.mcuhobby.com */ int main() { char *a,*s,*q; printf(s="/*
http://www.mcuhobby.com */ int main() { char *a,*s,*q; printf(s=%s%s%s,
q=%s%s%s%s,s,q,q,a=%s%s%s%s,q,q,q,a,a,q); }",
q="\"",s,q,q,a="\\",q,q,q,a,a,q); }

2009\11\28@044742 by Peter Bindels

picon face

Do you stop before or after banning their skis?

2009/11/20 Tamas Rudnai <TakeThisOuTtamas.rudnaiEraseMEspamspam_OUTgmail.com>:
{Quote hidden}

>> -

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