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'[SX] Non-volatile storage'
2005\11\14@112400 by jb1311n/a

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In SX Microcontrollers, SX/B Compiler and SX-Key Tool, jb1311 wrote:

Does the SX have a way store a value when powered down?  I want to be able to store some values and have the SX 'remember' them even without power.   It doesn't look like it has EE memory, but maybe there is some other technique?  The are calibration values that won't be available at the time the device is initially programmed.

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2005\11\14@113433 by Chris Savagen/a

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In SX Microcontrollers, SX/B Compiler and SX-Key Tool, Chris Savage wrote:

Hello,
  You can always connect and external EEPROM or NVRAM device.

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2005\11\14@113549 by Jon Williamsn/a

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In SX Microcontrollers, SX/B Compiler and SX-Key Tool, Jon Williams wrote:

You can embed constants in your programs but you can't store nonvolatile data while the program is running -- you'd have to use an external EEPROM.

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2005\11\14@185049 by johncouturen/a

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In SX Microcontrollers, SX/B Compiler and SX-Key Tool, johncouture wrote:

Many Real Time Clocks have RAM that can be accessed.  To keep accurate time and maintain the memory you can connect the RTC to a coin battery (or my favorite a 9vdc batt and a 1M ohm resistor).  You communicate with the RTC / RAM using the SX's built in I2C commands.

There are a plethora of EEPROM devices that also communicate via I2C protocol and you are mainly limited by your pocketbook.

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2005\11\14@190856 by lordsteven/a

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In SX Microcontrollers, SX/B Compiler and SX-Key Tool, lordsteve wrote:

The SX has built-in I2C commands?

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2005\11\14@191551 by Forrestn/a

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In SX Microcontrollers, SX/B Compiler and SX-Key Tool, Forrest wrote:

SX/B has I2C commands. Connecting an I2C device to an SX processor is very simple - check the docs for SX/B.

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2005\11\14@195842 by Coriolisn/a

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In SX Microcontrollers, SX/B Compiler and SX-Key Tool, Coriolis wrote:

[Quoting: "john couture"]
To keep accurate time and maintain the memory you can connect the RTC to a coin battery (or my favorite a 9vdc batt and a 1M ohm resistor).
John, were you aware that 9V's have the worst charge capacity of standard non-coin cells? They are comprised of 6 AAAA (yes quadruple A) batteries wired in series and have ~ 1/2 the charge capacity of AAAs. If you need 3V to power your RTC consider either 2 AAAs or 2 N cells, they provide more bang for the buck in approximately the same space.

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2005\11\15@100558 by Electronegativityn/a

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In SX Microcontrollers, SX/B Compiler and SX-Key Tool, Electronegativity wrote:

Hmm... I have been pondering the smallest possible devices one could build with an SX20.

Two of those AAAA batteries would put out 3V and almost 200mAH of current.

The SX20 only draws 7.5mA at 4MHz, so I bet it would run for a long time at 32kHz.

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2005\11\15@104735 by beann/a

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In SX Microcontrollers, SX/B Compiler and SX-Key Tool, bean wrote:

If you want smallest size, I would think a 3V lithium coin cell would be the smallest.
Bean.

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2005\11\15@110213 by Coriolisn/a

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In SX Microcontrollers, SX/B Compiler and SX-Key Tool, Coriolis wrote:

According to the spec sheet for the SX20, with clock of 32kHz @ 3V Vdd, the current consumption would be ~175 A. This extremely low power consumption puts it into the viable range for lithium coin cells. Chemistries: Lithium Manganese Dioxide, Lithium Thionyl Chloride and LIR, would work.

What looks even more promising is frational AA sizes, the ER14250>http://www.powerstream.com is a 3.6V 1/2 AA  Lithium Thionyl Chloride High Capacity cell, sold for $3.25 in single, $1.50 in quantities of 100. its capacity is 900mAh, continuous discharge capability of 50mA weights 9g and measures 14.5 dia x 25 mm.


Running the SX @ 3.6V, 32kHz will up the current consumption to 275 A, but if you use a ultra low power smt LDO regulator such as the TPS77030DBVR, you can drop the voltage supply back down to 3V with only 17 A consumption by the regulator, resulting in ~190 A total current, or ~4740 hours or nearly 200 days of continual operation. Plus the charts show for the expected current discharge of the particular battery, the actual capacity is roughly 1175 mAh leading to a lifetime of nearly 6200 hours or 260 days. :)
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2005\11\15@110636 by Electronegativityn/a

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In SX Microcontrollers, SX/B Compiler and SX-Key Tool, Electronegativity wrote:

Hi Bean, do you know of any rechargeable versions of those tiny coin batteries?

I found some 9 volt NiMh batteries that charge all the way up to 9.5V and hold 270 mAH.

If they are constructed as Paul described then I could make a tiny rechargeable 3V device with 270 mAH by using 2 of the AAAA's inside.

I don't have a specific application in mind right now; just thinking about what is the lower size limit for an SX controlled portable device.

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2005\11\15@111351 by Electronegativityn/a

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In SX Microcontrollers, SX/B Compiler and SX-Key Tool, Electronegativity wrote:

Hi Paul, you must have been typing the same time I was.

I looked at the battery you linked and it's 1'' long by 1/2" diameter.
Three AAA's together would be about that size and would give 4.5V (or 3.6V for rechargeables) and something like 3000 mAH.

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2005\11\15@111418 by Coriolisn/a

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In SX Microcontrollers, SX/B Compiler and SX-Key Tool, Coriolis wrote:

Rechargable 9Vs have a different chemistry and are typically internally stacked 3 rechargable lithiums which can not be diasected, believe me I tried with a hacksaw on the internal plastic casing inside the metal jacket and resulted in only getting electrolytic fluid everywhere and ruining a shirt and staining the tabletop. If you want lithium rechargables coin cells, you'll need to go with LIR, or lithium ion rechargables. Word of caution, thier capacity is nowhere near that of non-rechargable lithium cells, and take special chargers to avoid overcharging which results in leaking of electrolytic solution or explosions (small, but sprays electrolyte everywhere whis is corrosive).

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2005\11\15@111528 by Coriolisn/a

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In SX Microcontrollers, SX/B Compiler and SX-Key Tool, Coriolis wrote:

Yes but the 1/2 AA I showed is 3.6V itself and requires only a single cell, I was operating off the idea you wanted the longest running for the smallest size.

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2005\11\15@111712 by Coriolisn/a

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In SX Microcontrollers, SX/B Compiler and SX-Key Tool, Coriolis wrote:

Also when serially stacking cells you don't add the cpacities, its: parallel, add capacity; serial, add voltage. So the capacity would be the same as a single cell.

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2005\11\15@113016 by Electronegativityn/a

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In SX Microcontrollers, SX/B Compiler and SX-Key Tool, Electronegativity wrote:

Thanks Paul, you just saved me from going home and destroying one of my rechargeable 9V batteries, and maybe a shirt as well. :)
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2005\11\15@123844 by beann/a

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In SX Microcontrollers, SX/B Compiler and SX-Key Tool, bean wrote:

Running the SX @ 3.6V, 32kHz will up the current consumption to 275 A, but if you use a ultra low power smt LDO regulator such as the TPS77030DBVR, you can drop the voltage supply back down to 3V with only 17 A consumption by the regulator, resulting in ~190 A total current, or ~4740 hours or nearly 200 days of continual operation. Plus the charts show for the expected current discharge of the particular battery, the actual capacity is roughly 1175 mAh leading to a lifetime of nearly 6200 hours or 260 days. :)

Paul,
 Can't you just put a diode in series to drop the voltage down to 3.0V ? I realize it won't be regulated.

Bean.


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2005\11\15@125904 by Coriolisn/a

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In SX Microcontrollers, SX/B Compiler and SX-Key Tool, Coriolis wrote:

hmmm, Im not sure what the power consumption the diode would have (dusting off the semiconductor physics section of my mind) there is the hole-electron recombination effect which accounts for some current consumption, but I don't know how much that is, J to I comparisons also complicate the issue. Also the LDO aspect of the voltage regulator being ~35mV means the battery could be run down to it's last drop, something not capable with a diode. But the idea does have merit for its size and simplicity and would be an interesting comparison.

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2005\11\15@152423 by g_daubachn/a

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In SX Microcontrollers, SX/B Compiler and SX-Key Tool, g_daubach wrote:

Paul,
keep it simple and stupid:

Assuming the voltage drop across the diode is 0.6 Volt, and the current is 275 A, the power "heating" up the diode is 165 W. No need to worry about hole-electron recombination effects, etc. :-) .

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2005\11\15@154619 by beann/a

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In SX Microcontrollers, SX/B Compiler and SX-Key Tool, bean wrote:

Guenther,
 The whole idea of using the diode is to drop the voltage so the current goes down. Paul said at 3 volts the SX would draw 175 uA. So that would be 175 uA * 0.6V = 105 uW for the diode and 175 uA * 3.0 V= 525 uW for the SX for a total of 630 uW.
 Without the diode the power would be 275 uA * 3.6 V = 990 uW, so with the diode the circuit uses 36% less power.

 That is how I calculate it anyway. Maybe I'm wrong... No I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken ;)
Bean.

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2005\11\15@165554 by g_daubachn/a

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In SX Microcontrollers, SX/B Compiler and SX-Key Tool, g_daubach wrote:

Bean,
for my "KISS" calculation, I just took the 275 A, Paul mentioned. I agree, the SX is not simply a resistor, i.e. power consumption vs supply voltage is not a linear function at all.

I support your idea using a diode (or two in series) for reducing the supply voltage instead of using an LDO regulator. The regulator would dissipate similar power as the diode would do for dropping down the voltage plus some additional power "eaten" (i.e. converted to heat) by the regulator's internal circuity.

Nevertheless, this all is a bit of guesswork. Although the SX datasheets present various diagrams showing the relationship between supply voltage, Idd drawn, and clock frequencies, it would be an idea to analyze this in more detail by measuring some "real" SXes under various conditions. I'd really like to do it if I'd only had the time...

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2005\11\15@194459 by Coriolisn/a

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In SX Microcontrollers, SX/B Compiler and SX-Key Tool, Coriolis wrote:

Id have to dig the book out, too late, too lazy at the moment. But I dont think power consuption in diodes follows ohms law, the voltage potential drop is due to overcoming the built-in "no mans land" (forget the technical term) caused by the p-n junction, though perhaps the hot electons interacting with the semiconductor lattice has an ohmic equivalent effect, so I just don't know, and I don't specifically know if we covered that in class, though that was one of two courses I really struggled with in grad school, so I may just be blocking it out. But I do agree, nothing beats real world testing.

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2005\11\18@082620 by dkemppain/a

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In SX Microcontrollers, SX/B Compiler and SX-Key Tool, dkemppai wrote:

[Quoting: "Paul Baker"]
: Lithium Manganese Dioxide, Lithium Thionyl Chloride and LIR, would work.


hmmm, Lithium Thionyl Chloride, now there's some buck for your bang! AA cells are about $50 each. On top of that, without an internal fuse in the cell, a short circuit can cause them to explode,
even with an internal fuse, they can detonate if shaken violently enough (1000's of required)
Oh, yeah, don't forget that the FAA won't let you put them on a plane, period! Meahs UPS, or FEDEX or DHL ground shipping only...


They do have a really nice flat discharge curve, but it's probably better to stick with the other lithium cells...


-Dan
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2005\11\18@084526 by Coriolisn/a

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In SX Microcontrollers, SX/B Compiler and SX-Key Tool, Coriolis wrote:

Thanks for the heads up on problems with LTCs, the AA price you quote seems out of whack considering the $3.25 per 1/2 AA price I found in single quantities, just buy two and place them in parallel to gain the same capacity. The short circuit problem can be all but eliminated by proper design of the power connections, a pico fuse (just in case) and use of an overcurrent protection LDO (meaning the diode method shouldn't be used), this ultralow current application shouldn't be a serious risk unless you do something really bone-headed. Im assuming that your (1000's of required) quote means g force, droping a cell from 3 feet is in the hundreds of g's so to generate that kind of shock you'd need to be in very rapid deccelleration such as a high speed auto accident, and I think a cell exploding would be the least of your worries at that point. Maybe they should be outlawed alltogether for national security reasons. A potential terrorist could pass them off as standard alkalines then short circuit them on a plane, perhaps not as deadly as HDX but would certainly cause considerable mayhem when cruising at 5000 feet.

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2005\11\18@103228 by johncouturen/a

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In SX Microcontrollers, SX/B Compiler and SX-Key Tool, johncouture wrote:

(grin) while you guys are debating and poring over datasheets, I just break out a box of cheap 9vdc batteries with my 1m ohm resistor.  By the time I work my way through the 1000 batteries for $1 from CostCo, you guys will probably have it figured out!  LOL
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2005\11\18@104113 by Electronegativityn/a

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In SX Microcontrollers, SX/B Compiler and SX-Key Tool, Electronegativity wrote:

You spent $1000 on 9V batteries? :shocked:

I don't understand about the 1M resistor, seems like you would only get 9 microamps out of the battery that way.
Admittedly it would last a long time, but I don't think there's much you could do with it.

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