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PICList Thread
'The biggest tragedy since the Titanic sunk??'
1999\07\02@064349 by Don McKenzie

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The biggest tragedy since the Titanic sunk??

It's starting to sound that way!
My SimmStick dealers and myself have put up the money for a
MicroController design contest and have minimal entries to date.

It closes the end of October. Only two entries.
C'mon guys........
We hoped to run it every year, but this may now not eventuate.
We need your support.
Are we doing it wrong? Feedback appreciated.

SimmStick Design Contest!
First Prize $500USD Cash.
Many other prizes.

The SimmStick Dealers first design contest, sponsored by SimmStick
Dealers World Wide. You may enter any working project based on any
combination of the SimmStick products, however the DT101, DT111,
DT103, DT104 or one of the SimmStick prototype boards with the
processor of your choice should be included in the project, however
any new SimmStick Printed Circuit Board design is welcome. This
contest gives you an opportunity to show us and others in the World
your creative mind and skills. SimmStick Dealers want you to show what
can be achieved with the SimmStick products.

See:
http://www.simmstick.com
for full details.

Don McKenzie  spam_OUTdonTakeThisOuTspamdontronics.com http://www.dontronics.com

Don's Download Dungeon:   http://www.dontronics.com/download.html
Australian Electronics Ring http://www.dontronics.com/aering.html
Win $500USD Cash. Micro design contest:  http://www.simmstick.com

1999\07\05@175035 by Don McKenzie

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Antti Lukats wrote:
>
> On Fri, 2 Jul 1999, Don McKenzie wrote:
> > The biggest tragedy since the Titanic sunk??
> > It's starting to sound that way!
> > My SimmStick dealers and myself have put up the money for a
> > MicroController design contest and have minimal entries to date.
> > It closes the end of October. Only two entries.

> well be comin on for sure, done be so worried (yet)
> it aint even close to october today, or have I be missing
> some month of time?

Good heavens!
Is that Antti Lukats, the designer of the original SimmStick, PIP-02
Author, and AVRBasic Author? (To say nothing of the many other designs)
And all of this was before lunch in just one day. :-)

Which month(s) of time would that be Antti?
Been a while hasn't it? Nice to see you pop up on the lists.

Don McKenzie  .....donKILLspamspam@spam@dontronics.com http://www.dontronics.com

Don's Download Dungeon:   http://www.dontronics.com/download.html
Australian Electronics Ring http://www.dontronics.com/aering.html
Win $500USD Cash. Micro design contest:  http://www.simmstick.com


'[PICLIST] Tragedy'
2001\09\11@192935 by Russell McMahon
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I'm extremely sorry to hear of the cowardly attack on the people of the US.

It's hard to say anything more profound than that at a time like this


   God bless,


              Russell McMahon

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2001\09\11@211003 by Dave Dilatush

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Russell McMahon wrote...

>I'm extremely sorry to hear of the cowardly attack on the people of the US.
>
>It's hard to say anything more profound than that at a time like this

Thank you, Russell.

It's been a singular day for us in the States.  Here in Philadelphia,
about 90 miles from New York, the mood is grim.  All day at work, we
had the television on; I watched as that plane slammed into the second
WTC tower, and saw each of the two towers collapse in turn.  Our
stations repeat those images, over and over.  I can't get my mind
around it: at least 10,000 people dead, perhaps as many as thirty
thousand or even more.  All innocent, ordinary people going about
their daily lives.  
All gone.  By whose hand?  For what?  I can't quite get my mind around
this thought, either: that in this world there are people- lots of
people, it appears- who think today's events are good, and just, and
right.

Palestinians are dancing in the streets of the Holy Land, cheering
with glee at the mighty blow their hero Osama Bin Laden has struck
against the Great Satan.  And crowds are standing around TV sets in
Cairo, murmuring their approval and thanking Allah for such a great
blessing.

We will see what happens next.

Dave

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2001\09\11@213717 by Stephen Webb

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>
> All gone.  By whose hand?  For what?  I can't quite get my mind around
> this thought, either: that in this world there are people- lots of
> people, it appears- who think today's events are good, and just, and
> right.

I can't get my mind around it either.  I can't help but think that the
attack was far more successful than the terrorists could have imagined.

How can someone feel justified in doing this?  What happens to them (real
or precieved) day after day until they feel justified in killing thousands
of innocent people?

-Steve

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2001\09\11@215130 by Kev

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Agreed.

Can anyone point to a source of information that explains the hatred to the
USA?  I know it involves Israel but I'm woefully ignorant of the details.

Thanks,
Kev

>
>How can someone feel justified in doing this?  What happens to them (real
>or precieved) day after day until they feel justified in killing thousands
>of innocent people?
>

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2001\09\11@215545 by David VanHorn

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At 09:48 PM 9/11/01 -0400, Kev wrote:
>Agreed.
>
>Can anyone point to a source of information that explains the hatred to the
>USA?  I know it involves Israel but I'm woefully ignorant of the details.

I've been following http://www.arabnews.com for a couple years now, on and off.
They are strangely silent today.

Normally, I find them an interesting counterpoint to the normal media.

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2001\09\11@220709 by Stephen Webb

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> Can anyone point to a source of information that explains the hatred to the
> USA?  I know it involves Israel but I'm woefully ignorant of the details.

I too am interested.

In particular I am interested in Arab-sympathetic news sites, official or
otherwise.

In general I want to get a sense of what these people are thinking.  What
led them to this?  Sheer evil indifference toward life?  Years of history
of being screwed over by the USA?  What?

-Steve

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2001\09\11@221710 by Bob Young

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The whole damned lot of them will be weeping in orchestrated grief for the
benefit of the press in hopes of yet another handout of food, money and
technology from the West.

And they will get yet another handout from the West.


Bob Young
E'Mail: bob.youngspamKILLspamtcc.on.ca
P.O.Box 1401
Clinton, Ontario
Canada, N0M 1L0
Web Site: http://www.odyssey.on.ca/~bob.young/
{Original Message removed}

2001\09\11@221715 by David VanHorn

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>
>In general I want to get a sense of what these people are thinking.  What
>led them to this?  Sheer evil indifference toward life?  Years of history
>of being screwed over by the USA?  What?

To put it in short words, what they see, is blind support of israel by the
US, despite atrocities.
Our pullout from the human rights conference in SA last week certainly
didn't help things.
AFAIK, only the israeli and US delegations walked.

I certainly don't side with whoever did this, and at this moment, it's only
supposition that it was even an arab group at all. But I do find it
interesting to look at things from their point of view.

As of this moment, their main page is still blank, though they have updated
the date.

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2001\09\11@230916 by Nick Taylor

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Hi Kev ... I suggest that you read the Tue, 11 Sep 2001 17:27:06 -0300
post from Gabriel Caffese <.....gabrielsdiKILLspamspam.....IMPSAT1.COM.AR> for a little
insight into how a large percentage of the world views the US and
it actions.  Ever since the Monroe Doctrine the US has acted as
though we have the god given right to dictate how the rest of the
world conducts its business.  Many have the right to dislike the
US, and many others have the right to hate the US.  I fear that we
are turning into the "school yard bully" of the world!

Before anybody flames me for being un-American:  I was reading the
Sunday Comics on December 7th when the music was interrupted to
tell us about Pearl Harbor, and the next day I saw my father leave
for the recruiting station.  I proudly wore a uniform from early
1952 to late 1972 (that includes Korea and Viet Nam).  But, I now
have 12 and 13 year old sons and am ashamed of the country that we
are leaving for them.  On one hand we want to control the world
like the Waffen SS, and on the other we want to be touchy feely
and soft to the core.  I'm glad that I won't be able to read the
22nd century history books describing modern day America.

 -Nick T.

Kev wrote:
>
> Agreed.
>
> Can anyone point to a source of information that explains the hatred to the
> USA?  I know it involves Israel but I'm woefully ignorant of the details.
>
> Thanks,
> Kev

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2001\09\11@231508 by Jose Samonte

picon face
My deepest condolences to all those people who
have suffered from this tragedy... :-(
Many Filipinos are really saddened and deeply
touched by this incident... :-(
Me and my family were teary-eyed.
God Bless Us ALL.

{Quote hidden}

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

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2001\09\12@010718 by David Lions

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Hope no one on the list has lost anyone.  These terrorists are gutless
arseholes.  I'd like to see them in prison till they're 80, then hung in
public on the last day of their life.

(And lay off the Palestinians.  I would help them if I knew how.  Remember
those people of middle-eastern appearance seen running away from Oklahoma?
There weren't any.  Islamic != Terrorist.)

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2001\09\12@010728 by Salah Mohammed

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Hello Nick,
   To you and to all those talking about this tragedy ....first I am
Arabian and specifically from IRAQ but I am living in Japan now ....3 years
ago I ran away from my country ...
I am deeply sad and depressed coz of this tragedy .... Dear Nick if the USA
made a mistakes against the other countries so it is not a solution to make
the same mistake with the USA ...who has the right to kill all of those
people ha ..tell me who has the right?
it is completely stupid work .... if they are Muslims I am muslims too,but
be sure in Islam rules nobody in this world has the right to kill or send
anybody to the other world but Allah(God) ....my heart is bleeding for that
tragedy ...smile of a baby is much expensive than this world ........the bad
thing will happen if the USA will try to revenge upon those stupids ....
peace ...peace ...peace ...

Allah will help us

Regards
Salah Mohammed



{Original Message removed}

2001\09\12@021241 by Nick Taylor

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Salah Mohammed,
  Very well said!  Many in this world have reason (and the right) to
dislike or hate the United States, but NOBODY has the right to commit
the horrendous acts of terrorism that in toady's news.  My fears are
that this will degenerate into a long term (maybe endless) battle
between the US and the Arab world ... much as has been going on
in the middle east between Palestine and Israel ... only on a much
larger scale.  Remember the US and Viet Nam.  Remember the USSR and
Afghanistan.  Military might and technology are no match against
dedicated nationalists in a guerilla war short of total annihilation.
I pray that cooler heads prevail.  We cannot, we must not, drop
nuclear bombs on Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, Palestine, Morocco,
Algeria ... and then hunt down the survivors and murder them.
May Allah be with you Salah Mohammed,

Best Regards,
  -Nick T.

Salah Mohammed wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2001\09\12@021825 by Justin Fielding

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Is this anything to do with PIC's?

Im sorry but not everyone would agree with your off topic post so it would
be best to keep things on-topic.

Just a Thought,

Justin Fielding
IT Operations Analyst
TV Travelshop


{Original Message removed}

2001\09\12@022033 by Justin Fielding

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Try looking for information on all of the suffering and injustice that the
USA have caused in the Middle East.

Justin Fielding
IT Operations Analyst
TV Travelshop


{Original Message removed}

2001\09\12@022236 by Justin Fielding

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Typical American ignorance.  I believe some call it bloated head syndrome.

Justin Fielding
IT Operations Analyst
TV Travelshop


{Original Message removed}

2001\09\12@023142 by Justin Fielding

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BTW my posts are not saying that the civilian loss in New York is
acceptable, it's not, but I can see why it has happened in the way that
America acts in International affairs.  The pentagon was however a valid
target.

Justin Fielding
IT Operations Analyst
TV Travelshop


{Original Message removed}

2001\09\12@024203 by Mike Kendall

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You're a moron Justin.  You obviously don't even think before you type as
the tool to attack the Pentagon was a jumbo jet with innocent civilians
aboard it.  Why don't you move to the Middle East?? Or do you like your
freedom too much in Canada.
Mike Kendall
----- Original Message -----
From: "Justin Fielding" <spamBeGoneJFieldingspamBeGonespamTVTRAVELSHOP.LTD.UK>
To: <TakeThisOuTPICLISTEraseMEspamspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 6:24 AM
Subject: Re: Tragedy


> BTW my posts are not saying that the civilian loss in New York is
> acceptable, it's not, but I can see why it has happened in the way that
> America acts in International affairs.  The pentagon was however a valid
> target.
>
> Justin Fielding
> IT Operations Analyst
> TV Travelshop
>
>
> {Original Message removed}

2001\09\12@041321 by Bond, Peter

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Justin -

> BTW my posts are not saying that the civilian loss in New York is
> acceptable, it's not, but I can see why it has happened in
> the way that
> America acts in International affairs.  The pentagon was
> however a valid
> target.

Rubbbish.

I see from your email address you are also in the UK.  As such, you should
be more than a little aware of what dealing with terrorist attacks is like
by now.

There is no such thing as a valid target in terrorism.  I don't care how
"justifiable" the situation is to them.  Remember the kid a few months back
who picked up a booby-trapped flashlight?  Lost his sight and one hand,
IIRC.  A teenaged *cadet* - not a full-time soldier, not even TA.

Any more on this, I think we should probably take off-list.

Peter
This email, its content and any attachments is PRIVATE AND CONFIDENTIAL to
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destroy the original message and attachments.

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2001\09\12@044230 by Justin Fielding

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We won't agree so, Let's agree to disagree and get back on to pic's.

Justin Fielding
IT Operations Analyst
TV Travelshop


{Original Message removed}

2001\09\12@050110 by David Lions

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Maybe it's a hoax like the moon landing.

Rotten.com: "PENTAGON NOW A TRAPEZOID"

----- Original Message -----
From: "Justin Fielding" <JFieldingEraseMEspam.....TVTRAVELSHOP.LTD.UK>
To: <EraseMEPICLISTspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 6:35 PM
Subject: Re: Tragedy


> We won't agree so, Let's agree to disagree and get back on to pic's.
>
> Justin Fielding
> IT Operations Analyst
> TV Travelshop
>
>
> {Original Message removed}

'[OT]: TRAGEDY IN NEW YORK, EASILY PREVENTABLE'
2001\09\12@065647 by Ron Anthony

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Hello All.  A somber day indeed.  Incredible details:  All 4 planes are now
presumed to have been taken over by knife wielding terrorists, approximately
6 men per aircraft.  How did we allow a half-dozen simple steak knives to
become multiplied by such destructive power, effectively turning these few
dollars worth of short range interpersonal weapons (simple knives) into
fuel-laden guided missile that have now changed the world?

Details are now that the terrorists told the captain "If you don't open the
cockpit door we will kill the stewardess we are holding right now".  As
simple policy this proposal must be ignored across the board.  We must NEVER
let the controls to be given to madmen.  At all costs, control of the
aircraft must never fall into enemy hands, and in this case, religeous
psychipaths on their exultant way to "paradise".

Telling the pilots to ignore all demands and leave the cockpit door locked
at all costs would have made this factors of magnitude less both in terms of
lives lost and countless billions of dollars in damage.

The pilot, crew, and passengers of the 4th aircraft are couragous heroes,
apparently mouting a physical challenge to the terrorists and ditching the
plane in a rural area.  All hands lost.  And a smoking hole in the ground.
But, no multiple-thousands of casualities on the ground in the world's
largest and most famous city.  And no "victory" for these madmen to inspire
the next generations of psychopatchs, already well formed -- witness the
children in Palestine dancing in the streets like it's a national holiday.

My friends, it's time to stop playing by gentleman's rules.  The murderer
wins over the pickpocket.  We need to strike pre-emptively in a massive
pro-active campaign to exterminate every last vestige of these irretrievable
madmen from every corner of the globe.

And, as a final note:  Bleeding heart liberals, go the hell home.  You're
USELESS.

Proud and Furious Citizen of the USA

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2001\09\12@070724 by uter van ooijen & floortje hanneman

picon face
> I think the worst tragedy is not the initial
> event, but the aftermath, both direct and also
> consequential.

I think the worst thing that can happen now is that the US launches some
(emotionally justified, to some people at least) massive attack (on the real
culprits, on some bandid group or nation - can such a thing exist? - or on
some innocent bystanders), creating a new set of (widowed, orphaned etc.)
desparate people, who become the next generation of terrorist launching even
worse (emotionally justified, to some - other! - people at least) attacks on
the US (on the military that lauched the attack, on the politicians, or on
innocent bystanders). This is how it has always been in the world (look at
Ireland, Spain, Israel, Yougoslavia, to name a few places). I really hope
that the real bandids are caught, trailed and convicted, but I also - even
more? - hope that no (more) innocent people are hurt. Having the same sex,
color, religion, economic status, etc of the - alledged or real - bandids is
not a crime!

> My friends, it's time to stop playing by gentleman's rules.  The murderer
> wins over the pickpocket.  We need to strike pre-emptively in a massive
> pro-active campaign to exterminate every last vestige of these
irretrievable
> madmen from every corner of the globe.

Wow, big words! I sure don't want to be your friend. I suggest you read
"sentimental agents in the Volleyen empire" (D.Lessing) before using bold
words again. Sticks and stones can break my bones, but it is words that make
people do the really bad things (like hijacking planes).

Wouter

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2001\09\12@071344 by D Lloyd

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At who/where are you going to strike? Strike at the wrong people and they
will strike back. Or, there is a possibility that other countries get
involved, escalation occurs and mutual destruction could be on the cards.

It's time to keep a cool head about this and find the *real people*
responsible.....not what media speculation has suggested. Once they are
found then action is justified.

Dan


To: RemoveMEPICLISTTakeThisOuTspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
cc:
From: Ron Anthony <EraseMEronantspamspamspamBeGoneOPTONLINE.NET>
Subject: [OT]: TRAGEDY IN NEW YORK, EASILY PREVENTABLE



Hello All.  A somber day indeed.  Incredible details:  All 4 planes are now
presumed to have been taken over by knife wielding terrorists,
approximately
6 men per aircraft.  How did we allow a half-dozen simple steak knives to
become multiplied by such destructive power, effectively turning these few
dollars worth of short range interpersonal weapons (simple knives) into
fuel-laden guided missile that have now changed the world?

Details are now that the terrorists told the captain "If you don't open the
cockpit door we will kill the stewardess we are holding right now".  As
simple policy this proposal must be ignored across the board.  We must
NEVER
let the controls to be given to madmen.  At all costs, control of the
aircraft must never fall into enemy hands, and in this case, religeous
psychipaths on their exultant way to "paradise".

Telling the pilots to ignore all demands and leave the cockpit door locked
at all costs would have made this factors of magnitude less both in terms
of
lives lost and countless billions of dollars in damage.

The pilot, crew, and passengers of the 4th aircraft are couragous heroes,
apparently mouting a physical challenge to the terrorists and ditching the
plane in a rural area.  All hands lost.  And a smoking hole in the ground.
But, no multiple-thousands of casualities on the ground in the world's
largest and most famous city.  And no "victory" for these madmen to inspire
the next generations of psychopatchs, already well formed -- witness the
children in Palestine dancing in the streets like it's a national holiday.

My friends, it's time to stop playing by gentleman's rules.  The murderer
wins over the pickpocket.  We need to strike pre-emptively in a massive
pro-active campaign to exterminate every last vestige of these
irretrievable
madmen from every corner of the globe.

And, as a final note:  Bleeding heart liberals, go the hell home.  You're
USELESS.

Proud and Furious Citizen of the USA

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2001\09\12@071800 by Adlam Frank

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I wonder if this forum was created to discuss this topic.  It is called
PICLIST and for a specific reason.

Can we use the correct forums to discuss this topic and not insult each
other?

{Original Message removed}

2001\09\12@072020 by Ron Anthony

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typo errors: in my previous posts, please read "psychipath" and
"psychopatchs" as:

"psychopaths"

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2001\09\12@074128 by Ron Anthony

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You are being far too specific.  I couldn't care less who "actually" did
this.  Let me get this straight:  If 20 people total pulled this off, you
want us to get these 20 madmen, and give them life in prison.  And, at
taxpayer expense, give them 3 sqaure meals a day, and warm, dry beds, and
cable television, until they die of old age, with full access to the
prison's health care system?  Even giving all perpetrators the death penalty
is meaningless.  That takes 10 years. And is irrelevant.

We know quite well who the usual suspects are.  It's time to lump them all
together, and call them the "official" list of rogue nations.  We need to
tell them all when any single terrorist incident occurs to US or US allies'
interests, all nations on the list will pay a price by absorbing measured
but nonetheless enormous surgical strikes aimed at their most critical
infrastructure.  And... consequences be DAMNED.  Escalation be DAMNED.  You
want a war of escalation, we WIN.  And, if you escalate, our rate of
escalation will be exponential to yours.

Our official policy to the rogue nations should be: "We fully understand
that you wish to murder every single US citizen and vanquish the Great
Satan.  We have no problem with your thoughts.  Think all you want.  But
should you try to translate your thoughts to reality in this regard, you
will find that the Great Satan is far too powerful to be hurt by you in any
statistically signifigant way.  We can absorb your greatest attack more than
millions-fold.  You haven't the means to detroy us.  And, you will learn
that attacking the Great Satan will be your own undoing, in the most
immediate fashion -- even if it requires our reluctant physical destruction
of your entire country, our reluctant extermination of your entire
population, and our reluctant annexing of your geographical landmass as the
next US state.  We beg you to leave us alone, and be yourselves, by
yourselves, in your own little corner of the world."

Our military might must no longer remain caged.  Reality is that we are the
strongest nation on the face of the Earth.  This is no mistake.  We've
EARNED it.  All democratic semi-rational nations have nothing to fear.  Only
the "official" list of rogue nations will be attacked.



{Original Message removed}

'[PICLIST] [ADMIN]: TRAGEDY IN NEW YORK, EASILY PRE'
2001\09\12@075821 by J.Feldhaar

flavicon
face
Hi all,

I've seen and heard, and I stand without words lika a lot of people in the
world.
But the text below can be found in every cheap Tom Clancy novel (with
variations).

BUT - I think this list is not a forum for such abuse...James...

Best wishes,

Jochen Feldhaar DH6FAZ
(Germany)

Ron Anthony schrieb:

{Quote hidden}

> {Original Message removed}

'[OT]: TRAGEDY IN NEW YORK, EASILY PREVENTABLE'
2001\09\12@082130 by Martin Hill

picon face
This is just the sort of attitude we need to maintain long-term world peace.
If in doubt, blow everybody else up until we are the only ones left, cos we
are bigger and more powerful than the rest.  Glad you don't have your finger
on "the button"

Martin

{Original Message removed}

2001\09\12@082355 by Raymond Choat

flavicon
face
Americans or American Government. Get it right.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Justin Fielding" <KILLspamJFieldingspamBeGonespamTVTRAVELSHOP.LTD.UK>
To: <EraseMEPICLISTspamEraseMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 10:24 PM
Subject: Re: Tragedy


> BTW my posts are not saying that the civilian loss in New York is
> acceptable, it's not, but I can see why it has happened in the way that
> America acts in International affairs.  The pentagon was however a valid
> target.
>
> Justin Fielding
> IT Operations Analyst
> TV Travelshop
>
>
> {Original Message removed}

2001\09\12@082747 by D Lloyd

flavicon
face
part 1 5978 bytes content-type:text/plain; charset=us-ascii
I see no point in even replying to that.

Dan




(Embedded     Ron Anthony <@spam@ronant@spam@spamspam_OUTOPTONLINE.NET>@spam@spamspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU>> image moved   12/09/2001 12:43
to file:
pic01495.pcx)





Please respond to pic microcontroller discussion list
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spamBeGonePICLISTspamKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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To:   TakeThisOuTPICLIST.....spamTakeThisOuTMITVMA.MIT.EDU
cc:
Subject:  Re: [OT]: TRAGEDY IN NEW YORK, EASILY PREVENTABLE

Security Level:?         Internal


You are being far too specific.  I couldn't care less who "actually" did
this.  Let me get this straight:  If 20 people total pulled this off, you
want us to get these 20 madmen, and give them life in prison.  And, at
taxpayer expense, give them 3 sqaure meals a day, and warm, dry beds, and
cable television, until they die of old age, with full access to the
prison's health care system?  Even giving all perpetrators the death
penalty
is meaningless.  That takes 10 years. And is irrelevant.

We know quite well who the usual suspects are.  It's time to lump them all
together, and call them the "official" list of rogue nations.  We need to
tell them all when any single terrorist incident occurs to US or US allies'
interests, all nations on the list will pay a price by absorbing measured
but nonetheless enormous surgical strikes aimed at their most critical
infrastructure.  And... consequences be DAMNED.  Escalation be DAMNED.  You
want a war of escalation, we WIN.  And, if you escalate, our rate of
escalation will be exponential to yours.

Our official policy to the rogue nations should be: "We fully understand
that you wish to murder every single US citizen and vanquish the Great
Satan.  We have no problem with your thoughts.  Think all you want.  But
should you try to translate your thoughts to reality in this regard, you
will find that the Great Satan is far too powerful to be hurt by you in any
statistically signifigant way.  We can absorb your greatest attack more
than
millions-fold.  You haven't the means to detroy us.  And, you will learn
that attacking the Great Satan will be your own undoing, in the most
immediate fashion -- even if it requires our reluctant physical destruction
of your entire country, our reluctant extermination of your entire
population, and our reluctant annexing of your geographical landmass as the
next US state.  We beg you to leave us alone, and be yourselves, by
yourselves, in your own little corner of the world."

Our military might must no longer remain caged.  Reality is that we are the
strongest nation on the face of the Earth.  This is no mistake.  We've
EARNED it.  All democratic semi-rational nations have nothing to fear.
Only
the "official" list of rogue nations will be attacked.



{Original Message removed}
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part 3 136 bytes
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'[PICLIST] [OT] RE: Tragedy'
2001\09\12@083411 by Justin Fielding

flavicon
face
The way the American Government act, and the way the American people blindly
support it (thinking that the USA rule the world).

Justin Fielding
IT Operations Analyst
TV Travelshop


{Original Message removed}

'[OT]: TRAGEDY IN NEW YORK, EASILY PREVENTABLE'
2001\09\12@090844 by Russell McMahon

picon face
Ah well - James says it's OK so ...


I am a friend of the US, approve of its higher ideals, (while dismayed by
some of its deeds)  and much saddened by the events of the last few days.
For this reason I disagree with what Ron when he says -

> My friends, it's time to stop playing by gentleman's rules.  The murderer
> wins over the pickpocket.  We need to strike pre-emptively in a massive
> pro-active campaign to exterminate every last vestige of these
irretrievable
> madmen from every corner of the globe.

Alas, this is how the terrorists will win.
This plays directly into their hands.

Democracy and freedom DEMAND that you make it more possible for your enemy
to hurt you than it is for you to hurt them. When a free country starts
resorting to the tactics of their enemies then they have started down the
path to becoming that which they fight against. And ALL democracies do it.
None stand exempt. The freedoms which we all value so highly are in part won
by dark and untenable deeds worked on our behalves.

The challenge to stay free and democratic on behalf of the citizens of the
whole world is a worthy one and not one worth throwing away for the sake of
a few thosand - maybe even tens of thousands - innocents. As hard as that
may feel. Be strong - yes. But if we want eg China to be like the US 30
years from now and not the other way around then concepts such as "stop
playing by gentleman's rules.", "pre-emptive strike"  and "pro-active
campaign" must be shunned. Removing "every last vestige" is not only
impossible but will both guarantee the deaths of a significant number of
innocent people elsewhere and also provide more justification for the
Eastern countries to (often justifiably) hate the US still more.

> And, as a final note:  Bleeding heart liberals, go the hell home.  You're
> USELESS.

This is not, I think, bleeding heart liberalism. This is (I think) a desire
to protect what you (including Ron) value most. Play by the declared rules
of the system that you wish to preserve, even if it handicaps you unfairly,
or descend little by maybe-not-so-little into a repressive fascist state.


> Proud and Furious Citizen of the USA

       Lover of all the people of the world



Russell McMahon

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2001\09\12@090851 by Russell McMahon

picon face
Oh dear.

> We know quite well who the usual suspects are.  It's time to lump them all
> together, and call them the "official" list of rogue nations.  We need to
> tell them all when any single terrorist incident occurs to US or US
allies'
> interests, all nations on the list will pay a price by absorbing measured
> but nonetheless enormous surgical strikes aimed at their most critical
> infrastructure.  And... consequences be DAMNED.  Escalation be DAMNED.
You
> want a war of escalation, we WIN.  And, if you escalate, our rate of
> escalation will be exponential to yours.

I share your pain as well as I can from half a world away and no personal
imvolvement -
BUT

Do this and YOU lose big time.
So much for "bring me your ..."
So much for "land of the free and ..."
So much for "we hold these truths to be self evident ..".
This is substantially worse than what these cowards have presently done to
the US.
Deciding to arbitarily kill and maim innocents who will on average have had
nothing whatsoever to do with the evil being avenged is right out there in
Stalin and Pol Pot and Nazi holocaust territory.- the wreaking of revenge on
whoever we wish because we can.
The damage we would do ourselves would be enormous.

> Our official policy to the rogue nations should be: "We fully understand
> that you wish to murder every single US citizen and vanquish the Great
> Satan.  We have no problem with your thoughts.  Think all you want.  But
> should you try to translate your thoughts to reality in this regard, you
> will find that the Great Satan is far too powerful to be hurt by you in
any
> statistically signifigant way.  We can absorb your greatest attack more
than
> millions-fold.

But it's not true. A small nuke in a large city upsets the balance
immensely.
Anthrax or Prion diseases equally so.And these may well not be rogue
NATIONS. Despite what the terrorism experts are saying this could have been
done by anyone with a will and a quite modest budget (and twenty odd people
willing to die for the cause :-( ).

>You haven't the means to detroy us.  And, you will learn
> that attacking the Great Satan will be your own undoing, in the most
> immediate fashion -- even if it requires our reluctant physical
destruction
> of your entire country,

But the country may not "belong" to the miscreant. And there will ALWAYS be
innocents involved and these will ALWAYS be in the vast majority. Unless you
start counting the thoughts of the innocents as enough to condemn them,
despite what you say above.

>our reluctant extermination of your entire

overwhelmingly innocent

> population, and our reluctant annexing of your geographical landmass as
the
> next US state.  We beg you to leave us alone, and be yourselves, by
> yourselves, in your own little corner of the world."

The average citizen of eg Iraq may (not without some cause) hate the US
greatly but they are not guilty by your stated standards of the actions of
their leaders.

> Our military might must no longer remain caged.  Reality is that we are
the
> strongest nation on the face of the Earth.  This is no mistake.  We've
> EARNED it.  All democratic semi-rational nations have nothing to fear.
Only
> the "official" list of rogue nations will be attacked.

It's a "nice" dream but the reality is different.
The US depends on freedom of access to the markets of the world.
No man, or nation, is an island complete unto itself.
To live on the productive capaity of the world the US must enmseh itself
with the world market place - which is farirl\y probably part of what this
was all about.
Set yourself up as the new international Stalins and the guerilla warfare
will cripple your international commerce.

Justice ? - sure.
Something more than 10 life sentences each? - very probably.
Nuking (or functional equivalent) women and children who already fear you
even more than they hate you? - not unless yuou want to become
unrecognisable from your enemy.

Convinced you? - of course not !
But think about it anyway.

And I hope that those responsible are found quickly and brought to justice
in a manner which makes sense to all concerned.


regards


                   Russell McMahon


>
>
>
> {Original Message removed}

2001\09\12@092731 by James Newton. Admin 3

face picon face
I had to open my big fat mouth...
<SAD GRIN>

Please don't be sucked in by that unnecessary shot at Liberals. There is no
point, as Mr. Lloyd says, in replying to that.

And are we really so incompetent that we have to resort to mass violence to
solve our problems? If so, then I'm sure we will....

...it just makes it a bit hard for some of us to continue finding joy in
life.

James Newton, PICList Admin #3
RemoveMEjamesnewtonspamspamBeGonepiclist.com
1-619-652-0593 phone
http://www.piclist.com

{Original Message removed}

2001\09\12@093032 by Mark Skeels

picon face
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nick Taylor" <spamBeGonentaylor@spam@spamspam_OUTJPS.NET>
To: <TakeThisOuTPICLISTspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 1:11 AM
Subject: Re: Tragedy


> Salah Mohammed,
>    Very well said!  Many in this world have reason (and the right) to
> dislike or hate the United States, but NOBODY has the right to commit
> the horrendous acts of terrorism that in toady's news.

I offer this for your consideration: hatred, at it's heart, is the same as
murder, just not acted out. Therefore, what these terrorists did is just the
natural result of hatred.

Now, how will you suggest that we should address the hatred, which is the
actual root of the problem?

Mark

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2001\09\12@094434 by Justin Fielding

flavicon
face
One way to stop the hatred is to leave people alone and not meddle in their
affairs.  It could be too late for that anyway.

Justin Fielding
IT Operations Analyst
TV Travelshop


{Original Message removed}

'[OT]: Tragedy Hits Home'
2001\09\12@104636 by Thomas McGahee

flavicon
face
Dear PIC List Friends,

It is now the day after the attacks on the World Trade Center.
Several students in our school here in Paterson, NJ lost
loved ones as the buildings collapsed. Yesterday 100 of our
students were taken out of school by concerned parents and
relatives. Today school is closed. It will be some time
before we know for sure the number of those who died. Not
knowing for sure whether a family member or friend has died
is heart-wrenching in itself.

I have a number of friends who appear to be among those
consumed in the carnage. Some of them worked in the World
Trade Center, several on the upper floors, in one of the
restuarants. Just normal working people trying to make a decent
living for themselves and their families. Others were
fireman who risked their own lives in an attempt to save
the lives of those in the buildings.

This morning I said Mass for all of those who died yesterday,
all of those who were injured, and all of those families
who have been affected by these acts of terrorism.

I have been praying also for those who planned and executed
these acts of terrorism. They are people much in need of prayer.
There is need of much healing. What we most need is not an
escalating cycle of violence, but an increase of understanding
and compassion and forgiveness on all sides. The alternative
is unthinkable.

PEACE!

Fr. Thomas McGahee

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2001\09\12@110153 by Bourdon, Bruce

flavicon
face
Our thoughts, prayers and hopes are with you all.
Bruce.

-----Original Message-----
From: Thomas McGahee [@spam@tom_mcgaheeRemoveMEspamEraseMESIGMAIS.COM]
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 10:45 AM
To: EraseMEPICLISTspam@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: [OT]: Tragedy Hits Home


Dear PIC List Friends,

It is now the day after the attacks on the World Trade Center.
Several students in our school here in Paterson, NJ lost
loved ones as the buildings collapsed. Yesterday 100 of our
students were taken out of school by concerned parents and
relatives. Today school is closed. It will be some time
before we know for sure the number of those who died. Not
knowing for sure whether a family member or friend has died
is heart-wrenching in itself.

I have a number of friends who appear to be among those
consumed in the carnage. Some of them worked in the World
Trade Center, several on the upper floors, in one of the
restuarants. Just normal working people trying to make a decent
living for themselves and their families. Others were
fireman who risked their own lives in an attempt to save
the lives of those in the buildings.

This morning I said Mass for all of those who died yesterday,
all of those who were injured, and all of those families
who have been affected by these acts of terrorism.

I have been praying also for those who planned and executed
these acts of terrorism. They are people much in need of prayer.
There is need of much healing. What we most need is not an
escalating cycle of violence, but an increase of understanding
and compassion and forgiveness on all sides. The alternative
is unthinkable.

PEACE!

Fr. Thomas McGahee

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2001\09\12@120848 by Randy A.

picon face
In a message dated 9/12/01 3:33:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
swebbspamBeGonespamNETLAB.UKY.EDU writes:


{Quote hidden}

I am a Christian and most would therfore think predisposed to greatly dislike
Arabs.  I have travelled quite a bit all around North America and in Europe.
I have found that mostly there are a few people that instill hatred.  But,
the majority of people are good and decent.  It is too bad that we only see
and hear about the bad ones.  There are good Arabs just like there are good
people everywhere.  However, the bad ones responsible for  this atrocity
should be found and as Henry Kissenger put it "eradicated"  along with any
leader of or part of any government backing these bad people.  Also, please
keep in mind that we don't really know if it was Middle Eastern people
responsible and let us not jump to conclusions regarding this.

Randy

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2001\09\12@124214 by Nick Taylor

flavicon
face
Mark Skeels wrote:
>
> I offer this for your consideration: hatred, at it's heart, is the same as
> murder, just not acted out. Therefore, what these terrorists did is just the
> natural result of hatred.
>
> Now, how will you suggest that we should address the hatred, which is the
> actual root of the problem?

Excellent, but very difficult, question Mark.  Having been married to a
lady from Mexico for sixteen years, and having traveled widely in my
twenty years in the US military, I think that I have a semi informed feel
for the attitudes prevalent in "third world" countries ... so I'll give
a shot at an answer:
(1) All colonial powers (US, UK, France, Spain, Portugal, Holland) need
to publicly acknowledge and apologize for the way we've exploited so
many countries ... and promise to not continue.

(2) Stop setting up and supporting puppet governments in other countries
that will support our economic and/or political positions. Batista in
Cuba, Diem and others in Viet Nam, and the Shah in Iran quickly come to
mind ...We make them rich, arm them, and then use them to exploit their
countries.

(3) Stop using military or economic means to coerce other countries to
conform with our ideas of how they should handle their internal affairs.
Use our military strength only to defend our shores and our citizens.

(4) Stop electing our US government officials based on their fund raising
abilities and the image that they present on television.  Tony Blair
comes to mind as the type of leader that we could have if we had a
better method of selecting our leaders.

(5) Improve our educational system to that a much larger portion of
our citizens can understand our foreign and domestic policies so that
we can make informed decisions in how we vote.

(6) Break the habit of thinking that we must have somebody to hate.
In the 20th century we went from hating the Orientals to hating the
Soviet Union, and now it's a toss up whether we should hate China or
Islam.  We don't need to be on a wartime basis to maintain our
economy.

Now having said all that, the atrocity of September 11th must
have a response.  If I were president (not a chance, my dislike for
politics caused me to turn down a seat on our local board of
education a couple of months ago) I would do the following:
Demand that the leadership and direct supporters of this attack
be delivered to the US within five days.  Consequence for non-
delivery is that one major city (Afghanistan, Palestine, Iraq,
Algeria, Iran, Libya offer a wide range of choices) will be
leveled with conventional weapons each five days (remember the
Arc Light missions in Viet Nam?).

 -Nick T.

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2001\09\12@124626 by Lawrence Lile

flavicon
face
I have good friends that are Palestinian, and a good friend just arrived
back from an Israeli Kibbutz.  None of them wants war.

My Palestinian friend lived through war her entire life, suffered when
troops came and dragged her brothers out of their homes, watched as her
neighbors and uncles and father were killed,  yet she harbors no such
hatred.  What she hates is war, not nationalities or races or religions.
Clear thinking should prevail, and we must guard against an irrational
racist backlash against whole peoples because of the crazed actions of a
zealous few.   The US has matured beyond such a lynch mob mentality, yet it
rumbles everywhere.

They are saying the plane that went down in Pennsylvania was probably the
result of heroics on the part of the passengers.  Some of the ones on the
cell phones said they were getting ready to storm the cockpit.  It makes me
tear up.

peace ...peace ...peace ...
--Lawrence Lile

> From: "Salah Mohammed" <.....salahRemoveMEspamHUGLE.CO.JP>
> peace ...peace ...peace ...
>
> Allah will help us

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'[OT]: TRAGEDY IN NEW YORK, EASILY PREVENTABLE'
2001\09\12@125614 by Dan Michaels

flavicon
face
Martin Hill wrote:
........
>This is just the sort of attitude we need to maintain long-term world peace.
>If in doubt, blow everybody else up until we are the only ones left, cos we
>are bigger and more powerful than the rest.  Glad you don't have your finger
>on "the button"
>


Amen to this, Martin. At a time like this, let us hope that cooler
heads prevail.

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'[PICLIST] [OT] RE: Tragedy'
2001\09\12@130501 by Raymond Choat

flavicon
face
Again you mistake the US government for the US people. They are not the same
and do not act the same. Do you think all people blindly support their
government? Killing civilians is wrong anywhere in the world for any reason
and most people everywhere believe this. You don't understand Americans
because while everyone in your neighborhood from your view is "Sheeple" its
not that way in my neighborhood. No our government is not perfect. I look at
it like this: We are all standing in buckets of sh*t, but the USA bucket is
the least full. This bucket is the best place to try to make an empty bucket
from. Now look in your bucket and continue to worry about mine.....


----- Original Message -----
From: "Justin Fielding" <RemoveMEJFieldingspamspamBeGoneTVTRAVELSHOP.LTD.UK>
To: <spamBeGonePICLISTKILLspamspam@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 4:27 AM
Subject: [OT] RE: Tragedy


> The way the American Government act, and the way the American people
blindly
> support it (thinking that the USA rule the world).
>
> Justin Fielding
> IT Operations Analyst
> TV Travelshop
>
>
> {Original Message removed}

2001\09\12@132252 by John Craft

flavicon
face
I think the bastards will get what they deserve, a missile up the rear.
They have awaken the sleeping giant that hasn't raised it's head since WWII.
The government will give them what they deserve because that's what the
people here want, not the reverse.  They brought the fight to us and I know
they don't understand what this means to them and every other terrorist
hiding about.  I don't want justice, I want some butt.

Yes, I understand that this is a "BAD" position to take, but ask the dead
what they want.....

Jc.

{Original Message removed}

'[PICLIST] Tragedy'
2001\09\12@132846 by Stephen Holland

flavicon
face
Looking at this guys email address, he is from the UK, not Canada. I'm sure
all Canadians grieve just as much as Americans in this case...

> {Original Message removed}

2001\09\12@133459 by joan

flavicon
face
Nick,

I agree with most of the things you say buy I cannot agree with the
solution you propose : what about the civilians that would receive
the weight of the USA fury ? You can bet that the country leaders
will be in a safe bunker while their population suffer the consequences
of war.

I believe in justice, justice everywhere and for everybody, and I
think that all the weight of law must fall over the people behind
this horror, but not over people whose only guilt is to live in the
wrong city.

The USA holds a military, economic, industrial, scientific, etc...
leadership in the world. Perhaps this kind of things would have not
happened if it has held the moral leadership also.

Do not misinterpret my words. NOTHING can justify this. NOTHING AT ALL.
I myself live in a country (Spain) periodically hit by terrorism.
But something has gone wrong when in the streets of Palestine crowds of
people celebrate the killing of thousands of USA citizens.

Let the victims rest in peace and God enlighten our leaders to behave
appropriately.

Joan

{Quote hidden}

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'[PICLIST] [OT] RE: Tragedy'
2001\09\12@134509 by D. Schouten

flavicon
face
My deepest condolances to every American! Holland is behind you on
this. It's just unbelievable what I've seen on tv sofar.

Daniel...

----- Original Message -----
From: John Craft <.....jcraftspamRemoveMEDIAMONDDATA.COM>
To: <PICLISTspam@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 19:21
Subject: Re: [OT] RE: Tragedy


> I think the bastards will get what they deserve, a missile up the
rear.
> They have awaken the sleeping giant that hasn't raised it's head
since WWII.
> The government will give them what they deserve because that's what
the
> people here want, not the reverse.  They brought the fight to us and
I know
> they don't understand what this means to them and every other
terrorist
> hiding about.  I don't want justice, I want some butt.
>
> Yes, I understand that this is a "BAD" position to take, but ask the
dead
> what they want.....
>
> Jc.
>
> {Original Message removed}

'[PICLIST] Tragedy'
2001\09\12@142600 by Quentin

flavicon
face
Joan Ilari wrote:
>

> Do not misinterpret my words. NOTHING can justify this. NOTHING AT ALL.
> I myself live in a country (Spain) periodically hit by terrorism.
> But something has gone wrong when in the streets of Palestine crowds of
> people celebrate the killing of thousands of USA citizens.
>
> Let the victims rest in peace and God enlighten our leaders to behave
> appropriately.
I agree, nothing can justify it, coming from a country and a city (Cape
Town, SA) that has been hit by terrorism up to a year ago, and the
threat is still there, although recently from a different group.
As far as the Palestinian crowds are concerned, remember this one thing
we have learned from our earlier troubles:

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

Quentin

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2001\09\12@142844 by Dan Michaels

flavicon
face
Nick.T wrote:
...... I think that I have a semi informed feel
>for the attitudes prevalent in "third world" countries ... so I'll give
>a shot at an answer:
>(1) All colonial powers (US, UK, France, Spain, Portugal, Holland) need
...
>(2) Stop setting up and supporting puppet governments in other countries
...
>(3) Stop using military or economic means to coerce other countries to
...
>(4) Stop electing our US government officials based on their fund raising
...
>(5) Improve our educational system to that a much larger portion of
...
>(6) Break the habit of thinking that we must have somebody to hate.
...
.......I would do the following:
>Demand that the leadership and direct supporters of this attack
>be delivered to the US within five days.  Consequence for non-
>delivery is that one major city (Afghanistan, Palestine, Iraq,
>Algeria, Iran, Libya offer a wide range of choices) will be
>leveled with conventional weapons each five days (remember the
>Arc Light missions in Viet Nam?).
>


Strange, Nick. Everything you said shows some deep understanding
of the problem[s] and wisdom gained over years of experience, but
your "course of action" seems to have been written by someone else
entirely.

??????????????

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'[PICLIST] [OT] RE: Tragedy'
2001\09\12@152310 by Dal Wheeler

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What I can't seem to get ahold of is what they hoped to accomplish by
committing this act.  Most of the interviewed "Arabic nations experts"
perspectives seem to suggest that the US had this coming from primarily our
support of Israel (as well as things like the bombing of an aspirin
company.)  That aside, I can't see how proving Israel's point for them is
going to change American policy positively.

BTW, what kind of psycho's would celebrate this kind of tragedy?  I'm
surprised Palistine would allow this kind of thing to be filmed.  This
doesn't put them in the best light.  One would think there would be more
denouncing coming from that part of the world.

Freedom fighters indeed.  How could you expect *less* interference in that
part of the world by sending terrorists out to kill a huge number of
civilian targets.

-Dal

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'[PICLIST] Tragedy'
2001\09\12@153134 by Sam Linder

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If those who did this or those who celebrate this think they've accomplished
something - just wait. Now you've REALLY PISSED US OFF!

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'[PICLIST] [OT] RE: Tragedy'
2001\09\12@155847 by Peter Barick

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>>> dwheelerspamspamINSIGHTEK.COM 09/12/01 02:17PM >>>
>>What I can't seem to get ahold of is what they hoped to accomplish
by
>>committing this act.
...
>>That aside, I can't see how proving Israel's point for them is
>>going to change American policy positively.
<<klip>>
>>-Dal

Hmm, well, Dal, don't chya think some Americans may become *more*
concerned about the $6+ billions being given to Israel for "fun" money?
Where is the accountability here? Some could conclude that all those
bucks turn into harsh treatment for Israel's neighbors. No?

I for one think the gravy train of bucks and tanks for Israel must be
pegged to progress in Them accommodating some of the Palestinian's's
concerns for living in that land.

Lacking compassion for the "other side" makes the US appear as louts
and bullies, not a very nice picture, my friend. Makes some very angry.

Peter

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'[PICLIST] Tragedy'
2001\09\12@161750 by Sean H. Breheny

face picon face
Amen, Joan!

Nick, I mostly agreed with your earlier comments, but I cannot agree with
what you suggest. It seems to me that you would be killing hundreds of
thousands of people in exchange for 10,000. Just consider whether you could
live with yourself the day after the retribution, when you had to go to
sleep thinking about the horrified faces of the children who died in our
bombing.

Sean

At 07:32 PM 9/12/01 +0200, Joan Ilari wrote:
{Quote hidden}

---------------------------------------------------------------
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'[OT]: RE: Tragedy'
2001\09\12@163229 by Dal Wheeler

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Hmmm...  I believe there was some growing sentiment for Palestinian rights
in the US; many Americans, I think questioned our lock step support for
Israel before this crisis.  I'm sure that movement has had a major setback
in light of yesterday.  I don't believe pissing off the "louts and bullies"
is an effective way of promoting change.

Also, the Arab nations would be better respected if they would exterminate
these terrorist organizations responsible instead of making them local
heros.


{Original Message removed}

2001\09\12@164126 by John Craft

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face
Would that be the same palalestinian's that were dancing in the streets at
the thousands of Americans being killed?

Whatever sympathy I had for them is now gone, I'm with Israel now....

Jc.

{Original Message removed}

'[PICLIST] Tragedy'
2001\09\12@165311 by M. Adam Davis

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I am very deeply offended that people keep peddling that line:
"One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter."

It is akin to saying,
"One man's murderer is another man's [fill in the blank]".

Sure, that man may be a [fill in the blank] to one or many other people,
but that doesn't mean he stops being a murderer, even when he is among
those who revere him.

The connotation of that statement is that from one perspective what that
person did is not only right, but that they should be revered for that act.

Get this one fact straight:

It is NEVER ok to deprive someone innocent of any crime against you from
their life.  While we could get into a bunch of hair splitting debates,
and you might even want to spin off onto a track suh as "America is
depriving our people of life by [fill in the blank]" but the stark
reality is that what oocured in New York, and Washington were acts of
cold blooded mass murder which no people, group or nation deserves

It took me awhile to figure out why exactly that statement bothered me
so much, but it is surprising that PIC designers, who should be well
schooled in logic, would pander such an illogical statement as that.
One end of the sentence does not justify, nor have anything to do with,
the other end of the sentence.  I realize that the connotaion I get is
not the point you are trying to make (at least, I hope it isn't the
point), and I understand you do not personally condone this violence.  I
also understand that it is good to try to see from another's perspective
even when one doesn't agree with it.  But please don't perpetuate the
idea that if one person believes that a freedom fighter is doing the
right thing, that it is true.

-Adam

Quentin wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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2001\09\12@170522 by M. Adam Davis

flavicon
face
Actually, sad experience has shown that even when one stops 'meddling in
other's affairs' that others can and do continue to hate them.

I realize that I shouldn't feed the trolls,  but it is almost as if you
are saying, "If the US had minded their own business, this would likely
have not happened."

I'm glad that your perspective on the world and international
relationships is so simple and clear.

But please stop promoting the fallacy that "If so and so fixed these x
things, then all would be well in the world."

A simple fact is that people are driven by an infinite number of
motivations and desires, and even if the US had become as much an
isolated nation as possible, people would still attack us for whatever
they felt was a good reason.

If you were not speaking so specifically, then please stop using phrases
such as "It could be too late for that anyway".  If you have something
to say, don't beat around the bush*.

-Adam

* pun not intended... but funny nonetheless ;-)

Justin Fielding wrote:

>One way to stop the hatred is to leave people alone and not meddle in their
>affairs.  It could be too late for that anyway.
>
>Justin Fielding
>IT Operations Analyst
>TV Travelshop
>
>
>{Original Message removed}

2001\09\12@173627 by Nick Taylor

flavicon
face
Sean & Joan ... With a little more thought I've modified my suggestions
for our reaction.  Our objectives should be to punish the guilty parties
AND post a warning to all other potential attackers.  Just executing
the planners and direct support personnel of this atrocity will serve
no purpose; they would die as martyrs for their Jihad ... and direct
ticket to heaven and instant heroes of Islam.  After we locate the
hiding place(s) of the terrorists we carpet bomb their entire
country as a deterrent to further attacks.

I've heard all the arguments against killing innocent civilians,
and agree that most of the civilians ARE innocent.  But we must send
a message that the price for attacking the United States has a price
too high to even consider taking action.

I was in middle school when we dropped the bombs on Hiroshima and
Nagasaki ... 240,000 innocent civilians were killed by those two
weapons and countless others suffered horribly.  But it stopped the
war and ended the senseless killing, and in my mind was fully justified.
If you view it as retribution for Pearl Harbor, we traded the lives
of 2,400 of our soldiers and sailors for 240,000 Japanese civilians.
I do NOT propose that we kill one hundred times the lives lost in
the World Trade Center and Pentagon ... just enough damage to make
them think that the price of terrorist attacks is too high to pay.

If we do not give notice that the price of attacks on the US is
extremely high, then the next attack my very well be with "weapons
of mass destruction" ... small nuclear weapons, highly contagious
disease spread through a city's water supply or via an aerosol
disbursement over one or more cities.  Our response must not only
be retribution, but MUST also be a deterrent!  If we do not make
the price extremely high, then we are likely doomed to live in
constant fear in our daily lives ... much like present day Israel.

Regards,
 -Nick T.

"Sean H. Breheny" wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2001\09\12@174305 by Nick Taylor

flavicon
face
"M. Adam Davis" wrote:
>
> I am very deeply offended that people keep peddling that line:
> "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter."
>
> It is akin to saying,
> "One man's murderer is another man's [fill in the blank]".

I also am very tired of hearing (and saying) it ... but it's
very true.  Many states (notably Texas) execute a large number
of convicted criminals each year.  It most certainly is NOT a
deterrent, it does NOT protect society any more than life
imprisonment ... it only satisfies a blood lust, and in my
mind is murder by the state.  "One man's murderer is another
man's purveyor of justice."

Regards,
 -Nick T.

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2001\09\12@174723 by Nick Taylor

flavicon
face
Sam Linder wrote:
>
> If those who did this or those who celebrate this think they've accomplished
> something - just wait. Now you've REALLY PISSED US OFF!

Sam ... didn't we cheer and celebrate while watching CNN's live
coverage of our missiles falling on Baghdad a few short years
ago?  What's good for the goose is good for the gander, even
though at times we have to be the goose.

  -Nick T.

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2001\09\12@175508 by Ron Anthony

flavicon
face
Nick, your point list 1-6 is naieve and ideal.  Your solution however is
effective and brilliant.  The hope is of course for non-compliance.  This
allows a material and real measure of retailiation.  I would love to see
this implemented, and soon.

{Original Message removed}

2001\09\12@175926 by Jim

flavicon
face
  "Many states (notably Texas) execute a large
   number of convicted criminals each year.  It
   most certainly is NOT a deterrent, it does
   NOT protect society any more than life
   imprisonment"

If George Rivas had been condemned to death the
first time he was convicted - instead of being
sentenced to successive life terms and allowed to
circulate *with*, plot and formulate then escape
with the aid of other prisoners - one Policeman's
family would not have received word Christmas eve
that they would no longer be seeing Aubrey Hawkins
alive again - ever ...

If you could have seen the tears of those who had
been deprived of their Dad, their husband their son
when the verdict came back "letal injection", you
might have a different reaction (or is it
'feeling'?) -

- Aubrey Hawkins' wife and Mom most certainly felt
justice was served with the sentence of death that
the jury returned with ... and they expressed just
those feelings afterward ...

Jim



{Original Message removed}

'[PICLIST] [OT] RE: Tragedy'
2001\09\12@180138 by Ron Anthony

flavicon
face
Thank you John.  Reasoned, hard line realization of what needs to be done,
nay, MUST be done.  They ASKED for what they may get.  I say may because as
you can see from the reaction to my earlier post, bleeding heart liberalism
is the norm.  Compassion loses to the terrorists.  In fact it's the very
mechanism for their success.  Sad, but true.  It's time to kill who needs to
be killed and engage in physical destuction of places, people, etc. to
construct, in reverse, the world as is should have been before this
incident.

People love the status quo.  Nobody wants a fight.  We need to create a new
status quo.

{Original Message removed}

'[PICLIST] Tragedy'
2001\09\12@180347 by Mark Bishop

flavicon
face
Yeah, and for the most part they were military targets.  Last time I
checked, the WTC wasn't a military installation.

{Original Message removed}

2001\09\12@182546 by M. Adam Davis

flavicon
face
Well, I hope the world cheers when bombs get dropped on us when we
attack or invade a neighboring country for the thrill of it.

-Adam

Nick Taylor wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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2001\09\12@184232 by M. Adam Davis

flavicon
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I don't see the connection.

Either you are saying that when a man commits murder in an area where he
knows the punishment is death, and he receives that punishment, then
justice is not done

OR you are saying that the US is receiving justice in this attack.

Or you have a chronic inability to generate useful analogies.

Anyway.  I don't think I really have anything else useful to say on this
particular track.  It seems this is going to degrade into a splitting
hairs type of discussion.

I'm sorry if I don't understand what you are truly trying to get at.  It
just seems like you are sympathetic to the views of those who would
perfrom this act.

-Adam


Nick Taylor wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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2001\09\12@185637 by David Huisman

flavicon
face
I find it difficult to understand how these acts of murder help the groups
responsible achieve anything of value.

The way I see it, they will receive retaliation and any sympathy that would
have been building for the "cause" of their people would be lost.

If this is some kind of "holy" war, I see they have a dilemma on their
hands. They will either end up in the afterlife, spending their endless days
with their "god of terror", or they will stand before a just god that will
require them to give account for their actions. It would be a sad day for
them indeed if the god they came before just happened to be the god of their
long time arch enemies.

Best Regards

David Huisman

{Original Message removed}

2001\09\12@200549 by Nick Taylor

flavicon
face
Ron Anthony wrote:
>
> Nick, your point list 1-6 is naieve and ideal.  Your solution however is
> effective and brilliant.  The hope is of course for non-compliance.  This
> allows a material and real measure of retailiation.  I would love to see
> this implemented, and soon.

Ron, I agree that my list of actions is ideal, but I do not believe
that it's naive.

Lower order animals that operate primarily on instinct are programmed
to bite in response to being bitten.  We humans hopefully use our
intellect prior to responding ... considering our goals and desired
outcomes and only then deciding on a course of action.  I for one
feel no need to lash out in blind anger ... I much prefer to follow
a course of action that will lead to a peaceful world for my two
sons.  The only times that I've yielded to the primitive urge to
instantly bite back is when a close friend was blown away by a
booby trap of a burst of automatic fire.

I should think that are national interests will be best served if
our goals are not to extract revenge, but to deter further attacks.
Military doctrine determines how a soldier can best respond in a
given situation and then trains him to respond in that manner.  We
need to determine how our nation can best respond to terrorist
attacks (with the goal of deterring further attacks) and then direct
our military to train its soldiers, sailors, and airmen so that
they respond promptly and correctly.  I don't believe that just
pursuing revenge is in our national interest.

  -Nick T.

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2001\09\12@202840 by John Ferrell

flavicon
face
Thanks for the invitation to the Soap Box.

Henceforth Capital Punishment will be considered Due process.
Becoming a lightning rod is YOUR CHOICE.
Protecting the rights of the guilty is secondary to protecting the innocent.

John Ferrell
6241 Phillippi Rd
Julian NC 27283
Phone: (336)685-9606
Dixie Competition Products
NSRCA 479 AMA 4190  W8CCW
"My Competition is Not My Enemy"



{Original Message removed}

'[PICLIST] [OT] RE: Tragedy'
2001\09\12@203925 by Russell McMahon

picon face
BRUSSELS, Belgium (CNN) -- NATO has unanimously declared the
hijack attacks on the U.S. to be an assault against all member
states. Secretary-General George Robertson said the U.S. would
receive support for military action from its 18 NATO partners
if it is found the assaults were committed by foreign
nationals.

For complete coverage of this story visit:
http://www.CNN.com or AOL Keyword: CNN

CNN Headline News has changed everything but its name.
Visit us online at http://cnn.com/headlinenews
========================================================
To UNSUBSCRIBE or SUBSCRIBE to any CNN E-MAIL service visit:
http://www.CNN.com/EMAIL

(c) 2001 Cable News Network, Inc.
CNN Interactive email id:6899161402260969

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'[OT]: Tragedy'
2001\09\12@203930 by Russell McMahon

picon face
>> Sam ... didn't we cheer and celebrate while watching CNN's live
>> coverage of our missiles falling on Baghdad a few short years
>> ago?  What's good for the goose is good for the gander, even
>> though at times we have to be the goose.


> Yeah, and for the most part they were military targets.  Last time I
> checked, the WTC wasn't a military installation.


If cruise missiles can now distinguish between civilian and military targets
and between "innocent: and "guilty" parties then they must have changed to
using PICs in the decision making circuits :-)

In Iraq the government purposefully builds military installations in close
contact with civilian housing etc in order to both discourage attack and to
ensure civilian losses when attacks occur. Civilians are offered "shelter"
in presidential palaces (of which there are many) when attacks are imminent.
You can be fairly certain that, with such policies, attacks on Baghdad would
have resulted in much higher civilian than military fatalities. How you
"reasonably" deal with such policies may be terminally challenging claiming
that civilian fatalities are not occurring or are minimal  is just lying to
ourselves. If we say that we don't care about civilian casualties in such
cases it would at least be more honest.

Many Iraqi citizens fear both the US for what it has done to them and their
leadership for what it continues to do to them. They are encouraged to hate
the US and have reason enough to do so. Even if you were justified in
attempting to kill their leaders and those who (to a variable extent)
willingly support them, the people's hatred for you alone is not, I think,
enough justification for killing them. If we kill people because they hate
us for killing them where will it end?

I condemn absolutely the cowardly actions of September 11th. By any
standards worthy of acknowledgment the attack on the WTC was untenable and
not something which should be countenanced under any circumstances. But to
not understand that to many the WTC, as both a symbol and  a means of
exploitation of the worlds resources by a disproportionate few,  is seen to
be as offensive as any military installation is to hide our heads in the
sand and invite history to repeat itself in due course.

Pretending that what we are doing internationally is invariably upright and
pure and just and that we are all good citizens of the world is a good way
of ensuring that the future will be a worse version of the past.



           Russell McMahon

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2001\09\12@210449 by Jim

flavicon
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    "If cruise missiles can now distinguish between
     civilian and military targets and between
     "innocent: and "guilty" parties then they
     must have changed to using PICs in the
     decision making circuits :-)"

Military planners decide the targets - then coordinates
are entered into the cruise missile - which indeed *may*
use a PIC (I don't know) ... Cruise missiles are able
to quite literally 'fly' to a target - along a pre-planned
route involving waypoints for turns, different course
routes. Early cruise missiles used inertial nav, later
versions were equipped with GPS.

IIRC - targets such the comm centers (switching,
microwave relay sites) and power generating stations
were the targets in Baghdad ... NOT civilian-occupied
"Trade Centers".

Jim



{Original Message removed}

2001\09\12@213858 by Nick Taylor

flavicon
face
"M. Adam Davis" wrote:
>
> I don't see the connection.
>
> Either you are saying that when a man commits murder in an area where he
> knows the punishment is death, and he receives that punishment, then
> justice is not done
>
> OR you are saying that the US is receiving justice in this attack.

Neither!  If you read my post and your post that I was responding to,
then you'll see that I was responding to your statement: "I am very
deeply offended that people keep peddling that line: 'One man's
terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.'."

{Quote hidden}

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'[PICLIST] Fw: [OT]: TRAGEDY IN NEW YORK, EASILY PR'
2001\09\12@222822 by Russell McMahon

picon face
Comment from a US friend on

> > Oh dear.
> >
> > > We know quite well who the usual suspects are.  It's time to lump them
all

I'm surprised how few (if any?) have taken up the theme that America will
diminish itself if it cannot, by acting within its own principles, retain
that which makes it great and which sets ot aprt from those who hate it.


     Russell


_______________________________________________

{Original Message removed}

2001\09\12@232541 by Ron Anthony

flavicon
face
i never said my policy was revenge for revenge's sake.  i simply said to
thrust upon all rougue nations a "reverse article 5" process, that is, we
are now treating an attack againts one nato nation as an attack against all
nato nations, and likewise, we should consider such origin of attack all the
nations on the rogue of nations list and pursue cripplintg surgical strikes
against their top level infrastructure.  how is that revenge for revenge's
sake?  And yes, there is something to be said for revenge.

Senator John McCain said today "May god have mercy on you, because we
won't."

And, I've read most of the NY area papers today.  All the editorials are in
agreement, using terms like "insane suicidal madmen" quite freely -- and are
almost all asking for pure revenge for revenge's sake.  And this, from
normally left leaning liberal strongholds, especially the New York Times,
for example.

I'd be surprised in Bush does't lay heavy waste to vast areas, including use
of US ground forced to occupy necessary foreign lands.

I can't wait.

{Original Message removed}

2001\09\13@011356 by Nick Taylor

flavicon
face
Ron Anthony wrote:
{Quote hidden}

I fervently hope that you wait an eternity before we use US ground forces
to occupy an Islamic country.  We tried in Viet Nam ... at a price of
58,000 American boys' lives.  The USSR tried in Afghanistan at a price
of 12,000+ Soviet boys' lives.  We both failed.  The only way we can
conquer determined guerilla warriors is to flatten and scorched their
entire country ... and maybe that is what it will take to make the
world's terrorists decide that the price of attacking the United States
is too high.

I cannot believe the George W. will lay heavy waste to vast areas.
His political advisors won't allow it ... and we'll likely be mired
in an ongoing confrontation ... technical might against guerillas and
terrorist ... much like Israel ... and our children will live in fear
of the next car bomb.

 -Nick T.

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2001\09\13@011414 by Nick Taylor

flavicon
face
Jim wrote:
>
> If George Rivas had been condemned to death the
> first time he was convicted - instead of being
> sentenced to successive life terms and allowed to
> circulate *with*, plot and formulate then escape
> with the aid of other prisoners - one Policeman's
> family would not have received word Christmas eve
> that they would no longer be seeing Aubrey Hawkins
> alive again - ever ...

And if the warden of George Rivas' prison had done
his job properly that policeman's family would not
be in mourning.  Incompetancy of a public employee
does NOT justify murdering his charges.

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2001\09\13@015518 by Quentin

flavicon
face
Adam.
Any senseless killing of (esp.) the innocent makes me sick to the
stomach, it does not matter who was the perpetrator. I only pointed out
the line as to cast light on why other nations are cheering and dancing
about this. It was not meant to offend.

Quentin

"M. Adam Davis" wrote:
>
> I am very deeply offended that people keep peddling that line:
> "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter."

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2001\09\13@015542 by Russell McMahon

picon face
Latest radio news here is that the 4th plane was intended to target Airforce
1.
Whether this is true or can ever be proved is another matter.



       Russell McMahon

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2001\09\13@022551 by Jim

flavicon
face
You didn't see the ABCnews graphic that showed
the plane that hit the Pentagon *actually*
looped around over the capitol and White
House area -

- before it assumed *final approach* in it's crash
into the Pentagon?

The pi-jacker (term just coined ) may have screwed up.

Or maybe he/they had trouble with his/their passengers too?

Jim


{Original Message removed}

2001\09\13@023730 by Justin Fielding

flavicon
face
Colonial powers?  I was not aware that the USA was a colonial power?  the
USA was a colony....

Justin Fielding
IT Operations Analyst
TV Travelshop


{Original Message removed}

2001\09\13@025854 by Jinx

face picon face
> Colonial powers?  I was not aware that the USA was a
> colonial power?  the USA was a colony....

American Samoa and other Pacific islands. Perhaps not
a military colonial power, as in the old days of the European
empires, but a significant commercial presence in many
countries. Haiti, Panama, Mexico, South Korea etc. I'm
not aware of the full involvement of US commercial in those
countries and others, but you can bet there's some "toe the
line if you know what's good for you". How about icons
recognised the world over ? Mickey Mouse, Coke, Elvis....

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2001\09\13@030434 by Justin Fielding

flavicon
face
lol

Justin Fielding
IT Operations Analyst
TV Travelshop


-----Original Message-----
From: Jinx [joecolquittKILLspamspamEraseMECLEAR.NET.NZ]
Sent: 13 September 2001 08:00
To: EraseMEPICLIST@spam@spam@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: Tragedy


> Colonial powers?  I was not aware that the USA was a
> colonial power?  the USA was a colony....

American Samoa and other Pacific islands. Perhaps not
a military colonial power, as in the old days of the European
empires, but a significant commercial presence in many
countries. Haiti, Panama, Mexico, South Korea etc. I'm
not aware of the full involvement of US commercial in those
countries and others, but you can bet there's some "toe the
line if you know what's good for you". How about icons
recognised the world over ? Mickey Mouse, Coke, Elvis....

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'[PICLIST] [OT] RE: Tragedy'
2001\09\13@035348 by uter van ooijen & floortje hanneman

picon face
Thank you John.  Reasoned, hard line realization of what needs to be done,
nay, MUST be done.  They ASKED for what they may get.  I say may because as
you can see from the reaction to my earlier post, bleeding heart liberalism
is the norm.  Compassion loses to the terrorists.  In fact it's the very
mechanism for their success.  Sad, but true.  It's time to kill who needs to
be killed and engage in physical destuction of places, people, etc. to
construct, in reverse, the world as is should have been before this
incident.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thank you Achmed. After all these killings of children that did not more
than
throwing a stone, a hard line action is what needs to be done,
nay, MUST be done.  They ASKED for what they may get.  I say may
beacuse sadly many of our fellow followers of Allah want to follow
the hounourless course of appeasment. Compassion loses to the imperialists.
In fact it's the very mechanism for their success.  Sad, but true.
It's time to kill who needs to be killed and engage in physical destuction
of
places, people, etc. to construct, in reverse, the world as is should have
been before those nations ever existed

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

See where words can get you? BTW I do NOT imply to know that Arabs
or Islam had anything to do with it.

Wouter

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2001\09\13@043653 by D Lloyd

flavicon
face
You cannot ask the dead what they want - they are dead. So, instead of
speculating, how about thinking that dead people most likely did not want
to die. Just like anyone else in the world right now....

And significant numbers will if your country just decides to destroy
indiscriminately so you can call get your "butt"

It's not time for "kickin' ass" just because you can - that is why this
happened to you in the first place.

Dan

To: EraseMEPICLIST.....spamKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
cc:
From: John Craft <spamjcraftspamDIAMONDDATA.COM>
Subject: Re: [OT] RE: Tragedy



I think the bastards will get what they deserve, a missile up the rear.
They have awaken the sleeping giant that hasn't raised it's head since
WWII.
The government will give them what they deserve because that's what the
people here want, not the reverse.  They brought the fight to us and I know
they don't understand what this means to them and every other terrorist
hiding about.  I don't want justice, I want some butt.

Yes, I understand that this is a "BAD" position to take, but ask the dead
what they want.....

Jc.

{Original Message removed}

2001\09\13@044941 by Justin Fielding

flavicon
face
Very well said, I find it amazing that most Americans cannot understand why
people would want to do this.  Don't they understand how much they are hated
around the world?  Don't they understand why?  I think some will start to
realize.

Justin Fielding
IT Operations Analyst
TV Travelshop


{Original Message removed}

2001\09\13@072844 by Mike Kendall

flavicon
face
Yes Justin, the Americans are hated by many people in the world who fear
and/or don't have what they want.  The Americans have a way of life that is
very alien to some who live under a dictatorship, or cannot choose their own
religion, or have been programmed through  propoganda etc..  You live in the
UK or Canada??  You stike me as the type of personality that would be seen
as a flag burner during a broadcast demonstration on the news.  You have
also succeeded in pissing off many people on this great listserv.  I resent
you for voicing your unwelcomed and anti-american/anti-free world opinions
and also for bringing down this listserv several notches through your
attempts to stir everyone up.  I'm going to attempt to contact your employer
to pass on to them some of your emails.  You are very immature.  You have
the right to your own opinion....but also you have the right to be disliked
because of it also.  You are a real jerk Justin.
Mike Kendall
----- Original Message -----
From: "Justin Fielding" <JFieldingSTOPspamspamTVTRAVELSHOP.LTD.UK>
To: <PICLISTSTOPspamspamKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 8:42 AM
Subject: Re: [OT] RE: Tragedy


> Very well said, I find it amazing that most Americans cannot understand
why
> people would want to do this.  Don't they understand how much they are
hated
> around the world?  Don't they understand why?  I think some will start to
> realize.
>
> Justin Fielding
> IT Operations Analyst
> TV Travelshop
>
>
> {Original Message removed}

2001\09\13@075636 by Justin Fielding

flavicon
face
lol, you can think what you want.  Im not saying that I dislike Americans
but I am pointing out that America as a nation don't have a right to do some
of the things they do.  I am also pointing out that allot of people do not
like America because of these things.  I think that saying these people envy
Americas wealth and freedom is not 100% true, lots of Arabs are extremely
rich and most of those who are not do not see material wealth as important.

I am not Anti-American, Im not glad of what happened, Im not stirring people
up.  Im just saying that you have to step back and look at the WHOLE
picture, not just the events in New York.  You have to try and understand
why it was done, not just get yourself raged up strike out in anger.

"I'm going to attempt to contact your employer to pass on to them some of
your emails", well thats real mature.  I take it you would be trying to have
me persecuted for my views, that's a good example of democracy and freedom
now isn't it!  Why do you think they would want to know?  Do you understand
that all email in the company passes through a sweeper and is monitored
anyway?

I think there are others on the list who would agree that you need to try
and see issues from every point of view or any actions taken will end up
causing more problems.  Blind attacks on people or nations suspected would
create another generation of fanatics and greater reason for them to want to
strike out at the west.

Maybe you should think about things too?

Justin.

BTW how do I unsubscribe from the off-topic posts?  I want to subscribe only
to [PIC] posts as it seems people only want to hear certain things within
off-topic posts and if I have upset lots of people here (of which I doubt)
then I will give up trying to reason and just get on with projects.


{Original Message removed}

'[OT]: Tragedy'
2001\09\13@090508 by Bob Barr

picon face
Russell McMahon wrote:
>
>Latest radio news here is that the 4th plane was intended to target
>Airforce
>1.
>Whether this is true or can ever be proved is another matter.
>

At a rough estimate, the time and distance to intercept AF-1 sounds about
right if GWB had returned directly from Florida to Andrews (as he was
probably expected to do).

By that time, however, I would hope that AF-1 would have had fighter escort.


Regards, Bob


_________________________________________________________________
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2001\09\13@092610 by Russell McMahon

picon face
> >Latest radio news here is that the 4th plane was intended to target
> >Airforce 1.
> >Whether this is true or can ever be proved is another matter.

> At a rough estimate, the time and distance to intercept AF-1 sounds about
> right if GWB had returned directly from Florida to Andrews (as he was
> probably expected to do).
>
> By that time, however, I would hope that AF-1 would have had fighter
escort.


I'm told, but don't know if true, that AF1 always has a fighter escort when
in "serious mode" and that it is equipped with chaff and flares and also its
own missiles. (The latter, if present,  are certainly not visible but it
would not be hard to do this if desired).  Given that it has just on
supersonic capability it would be a hard target to catch with any other
airliner - even before you got to its friends and its teeth. It didn't SEEM
to have fighters when it turned up here but our boys could have been lurking
nearby and the threat here would be extremely minimal.

I'm glad that we never found out the true target of the 4th plane but sad
for the folks who died making it so. I hope you will all give them some
special form of recognition in due course. Won't help them of course but
will make their families and their countrymen stand a little taller.



               Russell McMahon

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2001\09\13@101629 by Thomas McGahee

flavicon
face
My thanks to those PIC List members that sent condolences
to me on the occassion of the deaths of several of my
friends in the collapse of the World Trade Center towers.

This morning instead of having our usual homeroom period,
we assembled all of the students here at Don Bosco Technical
High School (where I teach) in the gymnasium. We began
with a reading from the Gospel of Matthew 5:38 where Jesus
exhorts His followers:

"You have learnt how it was said: 'An eye for an eye and a
tooth for a tooth.' But I say to you: offer the wicked man no
resistance. On the contrary, if anyone hits you on the right
cheek, offer him the other as well. If a man takes you to
law and would have your tunic, let him have your cloak as well.
And if anyone orders you to go one mile, go with him two miles.
Give to anyone who asks, and if anyone wants to borrow, do not
turn away.

"You have learnt how it was said: 'you must love your neighbor
and hate your enemy.' But I say this to you: love your
enemies, and pray for those who persecute you. In this way
you will be sons of your Father in heaven, for He causes His
sun to rise on bad men as well as good, and His rain to fall
on honest and dishonest men alike. For if you love those who
love you, what right have you to claim any credit? Even the
tax collectors do as much, do they not? And if you save your
greetings for your brothers, are you doing anything exceptional?
Even the pagans do as much, do they not? You must therefore
be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Tough words, and ones that I am sure many will choose to ignore,
but the only kind of words that can ever truly bring an end
to the cycle of violence.

Fr. Thomas McGahee

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2001\09\13@102143 by Stephen Webb

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face
> I'm told, but don't know if true, that AF1 always has a fighter escort when
> in "serious mode" and that it is equipped with chaff and flares and also its

Don't know if this is true,  but a friend said he thought this was the
first time AF1 had escorts while in US airspace.

Also, the news reported that AF1 was a target, and indicated that it would
have been hit on the runway after/during landing, not while in flight.

-Steve

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'[PICLIST] [OT] RE: Tragedy'
2001\09\13@105354 by John Craft

flavicon
face
Dan,

Think what you like.  These people deserve the massive carnage (hopefully
nuclear) that will fall upon them shortly.  What would you have us do, give
them a big hug.  They hijacked airliners full of people going about their
own business and killed them all, along with the everyone in the buildings.
What gives them the right to do this?  They don't like the U.S., they don't
like our policies, I tell what their not going to like, being scraped off
our boots.

Kickin' Ass is exactly what is needed, and not because we can.  Because they
asked for it.

Jc.

{Original Message removed}

2001\09\13@110418 by Stephen Holland

flavicon
face
Mike,

Please don't try to put the label of 'Canadian' or 'UK' on this guy, simply
because he is, as an individual, a selfish idiot. Putting labels out there
just tends to lump all people in said countries into the same basket. I am
sure the VAST majority of peole in all  (but a few) countries share in our
grief...

> {Original Message removed}

2001\09\13@110830 by D Lloyd

flavicon
face
Hi,

I might as well not bother commenting - clearly people are in a state of
unreasonableness......and that is understandable under the circumstances.

However, read what I said - I never said anything about *not* retaliating
to this.  What I did say is that it should not be done just as a matter of
course to anyone who might ever have expressed a dislike of the US. It has
to be established precisely who is responsible, first. Then unleash what
you like - NATO and everyone will support the action, including me (as long
as nuclear or biological weapons are not used).

Terrorism has to be stopped in its tracks or they will realise that they
can actually get away with this. But, you cannot go around killing people
indiscriminately before it is absolutely clear who did it.

The other problem is, of course, those who are responsible couldn't care
less about dying. After all, they partake in suicide missions. How do you
stop people who blindly believe in their brainwashing or over-the top
ideologies apart from eradicating them completely?

Dan



To: spam_OUTPICLISTspamTakeThisOuTMITVMA.MIT.EDU
cc:
From: John Craft <.....jcraft.....spamRemoveMEDIAMONDDATA.COM>
Subject: Re: [OT] RE: Tragedy



Dan,

Think what you like.  These people deserve the massive carnage (hopefully
nuclear) that will fall upon them shortly.  What would you have us do, give
them a big hug.  They hijacked airliners full of people going about their
own business and killed them all, along with the everyone in the buildings.
What gives them the right to do this?  They don't like the U.S., they don't
like our policies, I tell what their not going to like, being scraped off
our boots.

Kickin' Ass is exactly what is needed, and not because we can.  Because
they
asked for it.

Jc.

{Original Message removed}

'[PICLIST] Tragedy'
2001\09\13@110844 by dale

flavicon
face
> > Colonial powers?  I was not aware that the USA was a
> > colonial power?  the USA was a colony....
>
> American Samoa and other Pacific islands. Perhaps not
> a military colonial power, as in the old days of the European
> empires, but a significant commercial presence in many
> countries. Haiti, Panama, Mexico, South Korea etc. I'm
> not aware of the full involvement of US commercial in those
> countries and others, but you can bet there's some "toe the
> line if you know what's good for you". How about icons
> recognised the world over ? Mickey Mouse, Coke, Elvis....

Oh - so now we're to blame because people in other countries like what we produce?  I must have missed the part about Mickey and Coke being forced on the repressed population of South Korea at gunpoint.  Geez, you'd think in the year I spent there as an American agressor in the occupying force I'd have seen that.

Dale
--
A train stops at a train station.  A bus stops at a bus station.
On my desk I have a workstation...

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2001\09\13@111716 by Nick Taylor

flavicon
face
Justin Fielding wrote:
>
> I find it amazing that most Americans cannot understand why
> people would want to do this.  Don't they understand how much they are hated
> around the world?  Don't they understand why?  I think some will start to
> realize.
> Justin Fielding

No Justin, a large majority of us do not understand how or why we are
so hated around the world ... and many do not even realize that we are
hated.  Often times the school yard bully does not realize that he is
not liked ... but prefers to believe that he is a hero.
>
Justin Fielding also wrote:
>
> Colonial powers?  I was not aware that the USA was a colonial power?  the
> USA was a colony....
> Justin Fielding

Yes Justin, we were a colony ... and we learned well from our British
masters.  The Philippines, Hawaii, many smaller Pacific islands, Puerto
Rico ... and then we learned that all we needed to do was install a
puppet government and steal the territory ... Panama ... and then
further modified to only control the government .... to many countries
to list ... and yet again more modification to only exercise economic
control.  Would Tony Blair have consented to have Brit pilots bomb the
Balkans without US pressures?  I have serious doubts ... Mr. Blair is
one of the best national leaders in this era.

Regards,
 -Nick T.

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'[PICLIST] [OT] RE: Tragedy'
2001\09\13@112134 by Sean H. Breheny

face picon face
John,

Think of this scenario: lets say that 50 people from the U.S. organize a
terrorist group and go and kill a large number of people in, say, Russia.
Would you then sit quietly while Russia lobbed a few ICBMs at us? Do you
think that would be just retaliation? The majority of the people in
Afghanistan had nothing to do with this attack, and nothing to do with
harboring Bin Laden (this is even assuming he is the one involved).

By the way, the latest reports that I heard is that the Taliban may be
willing to hand over Bin Laden if they can review the evidence (seems to me
like a very reasonable thing, surely the U.S. would want to review evidence
before handing over anybody). Would you still want to nuke them if they
hand him over?

Sean

At 09:35 AM 9/13/01 -0500, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>{Original Message removed}

2001\09\13@114947 by dale

flavicon
face
> lol, you can think what you want.  Im not saying that I dislike Americans

We couldn't tell, from all the anti-American rhetoric you've been posting for the past few days.  I know *I* certainly got the impression you dislike Americans, and I'm pretty thick skinned.  perhaps you just don't communicate well.

> but I am pointing out that America as a nation don't have a right to do some
> of the things they do.  I am also pointing out that allot of people do not
> like America because of these things.  I think that saying these people envy
> Americas wealth and freedom is not 100% true, lots of Arabs are extremely
> rich and most of those who are not do not see material wealth as important.

I think you would be hard pressed to find a rich Arab who would not think material wealth is important.  If they didn't, they wouldn't be rich - they didn't get that way from living a simple life of prayer and meditation, you know.

And what exactly would you say America doesn't "have a right" to do?  Protect its own interests?  Invest money in its own businesses, and those in other countries?  Send millions of tons of food to impoverished regions?  Loan money by the billions to other countries, knowing it will never be repaid?  Send missionaries, doctors, engineers and laborers to third world countries?  Try to stem the flow of cocaine from Afghanistan and Central America?  How much of that sort of thing does Britain do, I wonder?

> I am not Anti-American, Im not glad of what happened, Im not stirring people
> up.  Im just saying that you have to step back and look at the WHOLE
> picture, not just the events in New York.  You have to try and understand
> why it was done, not just get yourself raged up strike out in anger.

When someone flies loaded airliners into commercial buildings full of civilians, I don't particularly *CARE* why it was done.  The "whole picture" is that a bunch of crazy-assed terrorists just committed the largest single act of cowardly mass murder we've seen on US soil.  Striking out is anger is the apropriate response.

> I think there are others on the list who would agree that you need to try
> and see issues from every point of view or any actions taken will end up
> causing more problems.  Blind attacks on people or nations suspected would
> create another generation of fanatics and greater reason for them to want to
> strike out at the west.

I don't think many people in the US is really interested in "blind attacks" anywhere.  We want to find those responsible -- which means those who did it, planned it, financed it, enabled it to happen by providing shelter, materials, money, arms, etc -- and make sure they pay the price.  Our goal is to make it obvious that the price for this kind of sneak terrorist attack is so incredibly high that no one will want to try anything of the sort again, ever.  Hopefully this will also reduce the number of terrorist attacks on other countries...  once again, the US carrying the water for the rest of the world that you claim hates us so much.

> BTW how do I unsubscribe from the off-topic posts?  I want to subscribe only
> to [PIC] posts as it seems people only want to hear certain things within
> off-topic posts and if I have upset lots of people here (of which I doubt)
> then I will give up trying to reason and just get on with projects.

Send mail to RemoveMElistservspamBeGonespamspammitvma.mit.edu with SET PICLIST TOPICS: -[OT] in the body of the message.  If you'd take the time to read the FAQ on teh website you'd have found this pretty quickly.

Dale
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On my desk I have a workstation...

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2001\09\13@115415 by Nick Taylor

flavicon
face
D Lloyd wrote:
>
[snip]
> Terrorism has to be stopped in its tracks or they will realise that they
> can actually get away with this. But, you cannot go around killing people
> indiscriminately before it is absolutely clear who did it.
>
> The other problem is, of course, those who are responsible couldn't care
> less about dying. After all, they partake in suicide missions. How do you
> stop people who blindly believe in their brainwashing or over-the top
> ideologies apart from eradicating them completely?
>
> Dan

You've hit the nail on the head Dan.  Killing the people directly
responsible for this horrific act will do more damage than good.
Their deaths would only be their passport to heaven ... their reward
for dying for the holy Jihad!

We MUST make it clear that the price of terrorism is far too high
to allow potential terrorists to even consider acting out their
desires.  I fear that the US (and the UK) lack the will to do
sufficient damage to countries that support terrorism to prevent
further terrorist attacks ... and the west will become embroiled
in a long term war of attrition ... with tremendous cost to both
sides.  What was gained in Viet Nam by the US?  What was gained
in Afghanistan by the USSR?  What price was paid by Americans,
Afghanis, Soviets, Vietnamese?  What price is currently being
paid by Israel and Palestine?

We must not respond in blind anger ... we must not seek revenge!
We must thoughtfully choose a course of action that clearly
shows that the price of terrorism is astronomical, that it
will affect generations to come.  It is not sufficient to
gain a military victory.  240,000 innocent civilian deaths
in Nagasaki and Hiroshima were not enough to convince many
that nuclear war must be avoided at all costs!  We must
understand that there is no way that we can build a reliable
shield against terrorism.  Our only option is to retaliate
is a manner that makes the entire world know that even
considering a terrorist act is unthinkable.

Pray that our children can live in a world of peace.

Regards,
 -Nick T.

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2001\09\13@115432 by Peter L. Berghold

flavicon
face
At 12:49 PM 9/13/2001 +0100, Justin Fielding wrote:
>  Blind attacks on people or nations suspected would
>create another generation of fanatics and greater reason for them to want to
>strike out at the west.
>

Justin,

I don't think that any reasonable person wants to engage in what you refer
to as "blind attacks." As a veteran I have seen first hand the results of
blind action.

However: Nothing the United States has done deserves what happened 9/11/01.

In fact: It is the US that the whole world, free or not, seems to turn to
when they are in trouble. It is the US that everyone expects to be a leader
when all hell breaks loose. I could go on and on but I won't because I
think I am wasting bandwidth even telling you this.

Then when the US takes a leadership stance on an issue, the parties who are
on the opposite side of the table from that issue condemn the US for being
bullies, the great satan, or whatever. It is pure bullshit.


Why is it then, if everybody hates the US there are so many people trying
to become citizens of this country?

No, the folks that hate the US are the ones who have an agenda that is in
conflict with the ideals of liberty and freedom.

Trust me in this Justin: I have been overseas. I have seen things from an
international perspective.  I have seen third world countries accept our
help in one hand and try to knife us in the back with the other.

I won't try and say we the US have been perfect little altar boys on the
international front. Our leaders and descision makers are human and
flawed.  The nice thing about our political system is that at least if we
get a bad decision maker in office they are going to eventually be taken
out of office.   How long has Sodamn Insane been in power? Or Quadaffy
Duck? Now there is a pair of good leaders for you...


-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
Peter L. Berghold                        .....PeterRemoveMEspamBerghold.Net
"Those who fail to learn from history are condemned to repeat it."

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2001\09\13@122811 by Ron Anthony

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Come on, what the hell am I dealing with here.  This is why the US must err
on the side of too much force.  It's the only thing most people understand.
You all make me sick.  And, beyond that, let's let the terrorists deal with
exactly what they gave us.  Yeah, like that will happen.

{Original Message removed}

2001\09\13@123418 by Ron Anthony

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Justin, we understand fine.  They are entitled to their opinion.  I don't
envy you, your mind is gone.  This happened because we were caught sleeping
at the wheel, moreso than their hatred.  We let these madmen turn a few
$1.99 box cutters into this massive devastation.  We have an open free
society, can you even comprehend that?  They used our greatest strength as
our greatest weakness.  Our lack of preparedness was the greater factor than
their misguided hatred.  Unfortunately it always takes this kind of crap
before real change happens.  The clock is ticking on terrorism, and I for
one will cherish what is to come.

{Original Message removed}

'[PICLIST] [OT] Tragedy'
2001\09\13@124356 by Pedro Drummond

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face
>>
>> I believe the real challenge is to punish the real culprits. Once found,
I too believe >>USA should make them sit on missiles.
>
> Yes, and you'll make them die smiling and honored for their cause.
>

Great, I like to see people happy.

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'[PICLIST] [OT] RE: Tragedy'
2001\09\13@124820 by Dan Michaels

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John Craft wrote:
>Would that be the same palalestinian's that were dancing in the streets at
>the thousands of Americans being killed?
>
>Whatever sympathy I had for them is now gone, I'm with Israel now....
>


John - I saw it too, and what the 3-sec newshot did not show you
is whether 100 people were rejoicing or 1,000,000.

As Mark Twain said: "... get the facts first ..."

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'[PICLIST] Fw: [OT]: TRAGEDY IN NEW YORK, EASILY PR'
2001\09\13@125051 by Dan Michaels

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Russell McMahon wrote:
>Comment from a US friend on
>
>> > Oh dear.
>> >
>> > > We know quite well who the usual suspects are.  It's time to lump them
>all
>
>I'm surprised how few (if any?) have taken up the theme that America will
>diminish itself if it cannot, by acting within its own principles, retain
>that which makes it great and which sets ot aprt from those who hate it.
>


I suspect, Russell, that "most" americans feel this way - but
you will notice that emotion rules at a time like this - witness
the many carpet-bombing comments on piclist. As Nick said, luckily
the people with their fingers on the button are a little cooler.
Colin Powell may yet wake up and come out of the sleep walk he has
been in for the past 6 months.

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2001\09\13@125307 by Ron Anthony

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Thomas, your are a fool.  Your philosophy is lost on people who commit acts
such as we've witnessed.  You'll never run out of cheecks to turn, always
hoping the enemy will see promise in your infinite will to suffer, and have
a change of heart.  Unfortunately, you and all those who aspouse your drivel
will be physically dead before then.  Right now it is YOU who are part of
the problem.  All your good intentions are corrupted by your failure to
realize reality for what it is.  THANKS FOR NOTHING SIR.  You contribute
NOTHING.

{Original Message removed}

'[PICLIST] [OT] RE: Tragedy'
2001\09\13@125607 by Ron Anthony

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The Taliban needs to be completely WIPED OUT.  For crying out loud, they
destroyed those buddas carved into the cliffs.  These people are
megalomaniacal fanatics.  They shielded Bin LAden for 2
YEARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

{Original Message removed}

'[OT]: Tragedy'
2001\09\13@125809 by Dan Michaels

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At 08:04 PM 9/12/01 -0500, you wrote:
.......
>
>IIRC - targets such the comm centers (switching,
>microwave relay sites) and power generating stations
>were the targets in Baghdad ... NOT civilian-occupied
>"Trade Centers".
.......


Try this scenario - a small band of 100 terrorists from
a dozen different countries get together and plan the attack.
Afterwards, they disband [into groups of 8-10] and go back to
their homes for 6 months. Question is, where you gonna send
the cruise missiles?

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'[PICLIST] [OT] RE: Tragedy'
2001\09\13@130330 by Ron Anthony

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EXACTLY THE ONLY PROPER COUSE OF ACTION NICK.  Hopefully our leadership will
do what needs to be done to elevate humanity to the next level.  That means
pure unadulterated destruction of people, places, things, etc., in
sufficient number to serve as an infinite deterrent for all the future.  Let
it be understood that whoever takes such action, the price will be
inequitable in our favor beyond all comprehension.

NEW NEWS:  At this very minute it was just announced, 5 firefighters found
alive and well in the rubble of the WTC, inside an SUV buried under tons of
debris

{Original Message removed}

'[PICLIST] Tragedy'
2001\09\13@130837 by Dan Michaels

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face
Nick Taylor wrote:
...... After we locate the
>hiding place(s) of the terrorists we carpet bomb their entire
>country as a deterrent to further attacks.
>
>I've heard all the arguments against killing innocent civilians,
>and agree that most of the civilians ARE innocent.  But we must send
>a message that the price for attacking the United States has a price
>too high to even consider taking action.
>


Try this scenario - a small band of 100 terrorists from
a dozen different countries get together and plan the attack.
Afterwards, they disband [into groups of 8-10] and go back to
their homes for 6 months. Question is, where you gonna send
the cruise missiles, troops, bombers?
==========


>I was in middle school when we dropped the bombs on Hiroshima and
>Nagasaki ... 240,000 innocent civilians were killed by those two
>weapons and countless others suffered horribly.  But it stopped the
>war and ended the senseless killing, and in my mind was fully justified.
>If you view it as retribution for Pearl Harbor, we traded the lives
>of 2,400 of our soldiers and sailors for 240,000 Japanese civilians.
.........


If you check your history, you will see that american bombing had
already killed "millions" via carpet phosphorus bombing. Most major
cities had already been destroyed. There are alternate interpretations
for why the A-bombs were dropped. If you study history in perspective,
you will see that that act was the most significant single event[s] in
human history, and people like Ben Laden realize it.
=============

......
{Quote hidden}

There are many analysts who believe the use of WOMD on america
is inevitable - if we continue on our present course. Think about
the following phrase - "spiral of killing, spiral of retribution".

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2001\09\13@130906 by Jim

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face
  "Try this scenario - a small band of ..."

Where did this come from? WE, or at least I
was discussing what we initially took out in
Baghdad - when the implication -I think- was that
we had targetted civilian targets, which was
not the case.


Jim

{Original Message removed}

2001\09\13@132238 by Arnold Chord

picon face
The A-Bomb was also being developed by the Nazi's. If they had developed it
first we would all be screwed.

{Original Message removed}

2001\09\13@134013 by Lawrence Lile

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face
A mosque was firebombed in Texas, and yesterday another mosque in Dallas had
the windows shot out.  This was just a side note buried deep into an
article, hardly mentioned.  Apparently somebody is taking an eye for an eye
seriously, since they are too blind to see how damaging such actions are.
Arab-Americans are all living in fear, first the tragedy and then bigotted
retributions from racists.

--Lawrence



{Original Message removed}

2001\09\13@143117 by John Ferrell

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face
This is an example of what we must carefully avoid. This is the intended
result of the attack to lead us to fall into infighting.

Consider my niece. She married a Pakistani. Their son Shaw was born in
America, went to school in America, works (and pays taxes ) in America. And
he wears a US Marine uniform. Be careful of who you condemn! There is no
such thing as a typical "American"!

John Ferrell
6241 Phillippi Rd
Julian NC 27283
Phone: (336)685-9606
Dixie Competition Products
NSRCA 479 AMA 4190  W8CCW
"My Competition is Not My Enemy"



{Original Message removed}

2001\09\13@143133 by jamesnewton

face picon face
Mr. Anthony has been removed from the PICList.

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{Original Message removed}

2001\09\13@144657 by John Ferrell

flavicon
face
You asked:
Question is, where you gonna send
the cruise missiles?

The answer:
The missiles will follow them home. Those who harbor & comfort them will
become targets as well. There is no time limit. We are still punishing
Nazi's for war crimes and there is no safe haven and there is no statute of
limitations. The acts of terrorism have been defined as attacks against the
civilized world and will be dealt with war crimes. As war crimes, due
process is a whole lot faster.

Our infrastructure must not be hurt too bad. My dog just informed me that
the order I placed with DigiKey on Monday is on the back porch.




John Ferrell
6241 Phillippi Rd
Julian NC 27283
Phone: (336)685-9606
Dixie Competition Products
NSRCA 479 AMA 4190  W8CCW
"My Competition is Not My Enemy"



{Original Message removed}

'[OT]: TRAGEDY IN NEW YORK, EASILY PREVENTABLE'
2001\09\13@144907 by John Ferrell

flavicon
face
We are off topic here, it should not be too much of an inconvenience.
Blowing off steam can only improve our aim.

John Ferrell
6241 Phillippi Rd
Julian NC 27283
Phone: (336)685-9606
Dixie Competition Products
NSRCA 479 AMA 4190  W8CCW
"My Competition is Not My Enemy"



----- Original Message -----
From: "Adlam Frank" <spamFADLAM@spam@spamSTOPspamPETECH.AC.ZA>
To: <spamBeGonePICLISTspamBeGonespam@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 7:10 AM
Subject: Re: [OT]: TRAGEDY IN NEW YORK, EASILY PREVENTABLE


> I wonder if this forum was created to discuss this topic.  It is called
> PICLIST and for a specific reason.
>
> Can we use the correct forums to discuss this topic and not insult each
> other?
>
> {Original Message removed}

2001\09\13@145059 by Byron A Jeff

face picon face
On Thu, Sep 13, 2001 at 11:27:21AM -0700, James Newton. Admin 3 wrote:
> Mr. Anthony has been removed from the PICList.

James,

This may be a hasty decision. While I abhor and condemn Mr. Anthony's words
I think that he should be allowed to vent here as others have in the last few
days.

If you meditate on Fr. Thomas' words for a minute, you may realize that
in order to turn the other cheek, that you have to allow dialog with those
that you do not agree with.

I cannot speak for Ron, but I feel real anger and real pain in his words.
It seems that he's trying to vent that anger. Maybe we should be open enough
to allow him to do that.

Think and bit and maybe you'll rethink your decision.

And Fr. Thomas, I am deeply sorry and saddened by your, and indirectly all of
our, loss.

BAJ
>
> ---
> James Newton, Admin #3 RemoveMEjamesnewtonRemoveMEspamRemoveMEpiclist.com
> 1-619-652-0593 VM 1-208-279-8767 FAX
> PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com or .org
>
> {Original Message removed}

2001\09\13@153109 by jamesnewton

face picon face
No, I appreciate your being willing to follow Fr. McGahee's advice (on his
behalf <GRIN>) and turn HIS other cheek, but...

John Stuart Mill, _On Liberty_
"The liberty of the individual must be thus far limited; he must not make a
nuisance of himself to other people." -

???
"Your right to swing your arm stops where my nose begins"

Eleanor Roosevelt
"Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds
discuss people."

Lazarus Long (Robert A. Heinlein)
"Never appeal to a man's better nature. He may not have one. Invoking his
self-interest gives you more leverage."

and others from
http://www.piclist.com/quotes

My personal favorite from that page... although I'm not sure it applies
here... is
Doctor Who, Face of Evil
"The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of
altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their
views... which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the
facts that needs altering."

I think I differ from the good father as well as Mr Anthony, but my
difference has a reason that I can express....

...I'm not a nice enough person to care whether or not "turning the other
cheek" is the "right" thing to do or not and I for DAMN sure don't like
being slapped. On the other hand, I like results and I REALLY DON'T LIKE
WAR. Wasting brains is bad. And history shows that just turning the other
cheek (or ignoring the turning of your neighbors cheek) teaches the bully to
get a set of brass knuckles so he can keep hitting without bruising his
hand, but blowing up the mad "president-for-life's" family while not hurting
(in fact aiding) the rest of the populace results in peace.


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{Original Message removed}

2001\09\13@154357 by Dan Michaels

flavicon
face
I hope you're getting your steam off, because you are definitely
over the top here, young man.

Normally this type of comment is not considered acceptable on
piclist -------> [James?]


Ron Anthony wrote:
>Thomas, your are a fool.  Your philosophy is lost on people who commit acts
>such as we've witnessed.  You'll never run out of cheecks to turn, always
>hoping the enemy will see promise in your infinite will to suffer, and have
>a change of heart.  Unfortunately, you and all those who aspouse your drivel
>will be physically dead before then.  Right now it is YOU who are part of
>the problem.  All your good intentions are corrupted by your failure to
>realize reality for what it is.  THANKS FOR NOTHING SIR.  You contribute
>NOTHING.
>
>{Original Message removed}

2001\09\13@155842 by Dan Michaels

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face
Oops - I must have blanked out the more appropriate stuff.

Whatever, point was, the guerillas disappear into the bushes,
leave the country, go home, lie low for 6 months or 3 years.
They have probably already done so. There is no standing army,
no front lines, etc, etc. They wait years to do things. 1993
the truck bomb, 2001 the airplanes. Do you think they are gonna
sit there while the marines come in after the bombers hit after
the cruise missiles strike? Right.



At 12:07 PM 9/13/01 -0500, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>{Original Message removed}

2001\09\13@163240 by John Ferrell

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face
A sobering thought.
I will voluntarily take my emotions off list at this time. If anyone wishes
to air their feelings with direct e-mail I will attempt to respond.
Disruption of normal business is part of the attack's objectives and I
intend to do my part to deny that objective.


John Ferrell
6241 Phillippi Rd
Julian NC 27283
Phone: (336)685-9606
Dixie Competition Products
NSRCA 479 AMA 4190  W8CCW
"My Competition is Not My Enemy"



----- Original Message -----
From: "James Newton. Admin 3" <spam_OUTjamesnewton@spam@spamPICLIST.COM>
To: <TakeThisOuTPICLISTspam_OUTspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 2:27 PM
Subject: Re: [OT]: Tragedy


> Mr. Anthony has been removed from the PICList.
>
> ---
> James Newton, Admin #3 KILLspamjamesnewton.....spamTakeThisOuTpiclist.com
> 1-619-652-0593 VM 1-208-279-8767 FAX
> PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com or .org
>
> {Original Message removed}

2001\09\13@232512 by Dan Michaels

flavicon
face
Stay tuned - this thing isn't over yet. They "apparently"
arrested 2 more crews of terrorists trying to get onto
planes to going out tonight. Apparently, their flights
were cancelled 2 days ago before leaving the ground.




At 09:59 AM 9/13/01 -0700, you wrote:
>The A-Bomb was also being developed by the Nazi's. If they had developed it
>first we would all be screwed.
>
>{Original Message removed}

2001\09\14@012216 by Jinx

face picon face
> Stay tuned - this thing isn't over yet. They "apparently"
> arrested 2 more crews of terrorists trying to get onto
> planes to going out tonight. Apparently, their flights
> were cancelled 2 days ago before leaving the ground.

On a minor note, some 55yo knob-end from Papatoetoe
in Auckland was arrested and charged with communicating
false information, breach of the peace and actions likely
to endanger safety after he loudly exclaimed "don't touch
the bomb in my bag" as he boarded a plane in Auckland
this morning

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2001\09\14@013443 by Paul Hutchinson

flavicon
face
> Tough words, and ones that I am sure many will choose to ignore,
> but the only kind of words that can ever truly bring an end
> to the cycle of violence.

I couldn't agree more!

Fr. Thomas, thank you very much for the post.

And James, thank you for removing Ron.
I have no objection to his expressing an opinion but, his rudeness in
expressing it as a personal attack on Fr. Thomas, was inexcusable.

Paul Hutchinson

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2001\09\14@015749 by Phil

flavicon
face
What a ignorant moron this idoit must be!!!
Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: "Justin Fielding" <TakeThisOuTJFieldingEraseMEspamRemoveMETVTRAVELSHOP.LTD.UK>
To: <spam_OUTPICLISTRemoveMEspam.....MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 2:24 AM
Subject: Re: Tragedy


> BTW my posts are not saying that the civilian loss in New York is
> acceptable, it's not, but I can see why it has happened in the way that
> America acts in International affairs.  The pentagon was however a valid
> target.
>
> Justin Fielding
> IT Operations Analyst
> TV Travelshop
>
>
> {Original Message removed}

2001\09\14@015821 by Phil

flavicon
face
And we don't want you as a friend either, because the only people
you're a friend to are these terrorist!!
Phil
{Original Message removed}

2001\09\14@030816 by Phil

flavicon
face
Where would the world be today if we (America and Americans)  had
not come to Britians and the rest of Europe aid during WWII - in other
words had not meddle in the affairs of  Germany and all of Europe.
This is how you thank us for saving your country.  Maybe if we had
meddle in the internal affairs of Germany sooner,  millions of lives would
have been saved all over Europe, Russia, and Africa.  When you have a
cancer growing in a life form, every single cell of that cancer must be
removed along with areas around were the cancer is growing or the cancer
will
destroy the host life form.  The terrorest are the cancer and the people of
the
the Earth are the host life form.

Phil Lohr
----- Original Message -----
From: "Justin Fielding" <spamJFieldingKILLspamspamKILLspamTVTRAVELSHOP.LTD.UK>
To: <spamPICLISTspam_OUTspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 9:37 AM
Subject: Re: Tragedy


> One way to stop the hatred is to leave people alone and not meddle in
their
> affairs.  It could be too late for that anyway.
>
> Justin Fielding
> IT Operations Analyst
> TV Travelshop

----- Original Message -----
From: "Justin Fielding" <STOPspamJFieldingspam_OUTspamspamBeGoneTVTRAVELSHOP.LTD.UK>
To: <spam_OUTPICLISTspamspamBeGoneMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 9:37 AM
Subject: Re: Tragedy


> One way to stop the hatred is to leave people alone and not meddle in
their
> affairs.  It could be too late for that anyway.
>
> Justin Fielding
> IT Operations Analyst
> TV Travelshop
>
>
> {Original Message removed}

2001\09\14@030912 by David Huisman

flavicon
face
It is always hard to make a personal view known without offending someone,
as we all
have our view of what is right and wrong. But, as this appears to be an open
forum
where we are free to express our views... here are mine.

If the mission of these extremists is to dominate the world with their
religion and
no other beliefs will be tolerated then I see no solution until either one
side or the
other is wiped out.

There does not seem to be anything that can be negotiated if these people
see the
western world as the "great satan", they will always be striving to destroy
us.

If it is a matter of us or them, then my vote is for us.

I think sometimes we must fight to retain the freedom that has been
established and the
culture and lifestyle that has so far developed. I understand our western
culture is far
from perfect and that there are hardships and injustices in various parts of
the world.

If it is a matter of land rights, treatment of human beings, famine etc I
can see these
have solutions that can and should be worked through. I would love to see
all people on
earth share the same privileges and have equal opportunity.

I notice that western nations generally tolerate almost all forms of
religious and cultural
beliefs whereas places such as Afghanistan provide the death sentence for
people "preaching"
another religion.

Can humans live together with understanding and tolerance ? Here in
Australia I work side by
side with jews, greeks, italians, asians, middle eastern etc etc and I have
not personally
witnessed any form of prejudice or intolerance to their beliefs.

I am not prepared to be assimilated by their culture and am certainly
prepared to fight
for what has so far been achieved in the development of the western world.

Though I am only 1 person and wonder how I can support the continuance of
the growth
and development of our culture, there are some things that I can do. One of
these is to
ensure I do not supply product to countries that are known to support
terrorist groups.

Best Regards

David Huisman


{Original Message removed}

2001\09\14@034149 by Justin Fielding

flavicon
face
Ok, let's not get into WW2 as America and other nations have different views
of their involvement.

Justin Fielding
IT Operations Analyst
TV Travelshop


{Original Message removed}

2001\09\14@035331 by Roman Black

flavicon
face
Phil wrote:
>
> What a ignorant moron this idoit must be!!!
> Phil
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Justin Fielding" <EraseMEJFieldingspamKILLspamTVTRAVELSHOP.LTD.UK>
> To: <EraseMEPICLISTRemoveMEspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 2:24 AM
> Subject: Re: Tragedy
>
> > BTW my posts are not saying that the civilian loss in New York is
> > acceptable, it's not, but I can see why it has happened in the way that
> > America acts in International affairs.  The pentagon was however a valid
> > target.
> >
> > Justin Fielding


Phil, are you referring to Justin's paragraph
here, that you included with your post?
Why do you think he is a moron? I am certainly not
a moron and everything in his statement seems
valid and sensible.

America HAS often acted in international affairs in
a way that would cause some sectors of the world to
hate the US. Fact.

The Pentagon was a valid target. Fact. If any group
believes it's at war with the US then the Pentagon
is a very valid target.

I am curious why Justin's post has caused such
anger??
-Roman

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2001\09\14@043318 by Justin Fielding

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Think what you want.

Justin Fielding
IT Operations Analyst
TV Travelshop


-----Original Message-----
From: Phil [.....erlspamspam_OUTCAROLINA.RR.COM]
Sent: 14 September 2001 05:50
To: @spam@PICLISTEraseMEspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: Tragedy


What a ignorant moron this idoit must be!!!
Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: "Justin Fielding" <JFieldingTakeThisOuTspamKILLspamTVTRAVELSHOP.LTD.UK>
To: <RemoveMEPICLISTTakeThisOuTspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 2:24 AM
Subject: Re: Tragedy


{Quote hidden}

too,but
> > be sure in Islam rules nobody in this world has the right to kill or
send
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> notify the system's manager by emailing: spamBeGonepostmasterspamspam_OUTtvtravelshop.ltd.uk.
>
> This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by
Mimesweeper for the
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'[PICLIST] [OT] Day of prayer RE: Tragedy'
2001\09\14@045906 by zantos

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> Pray that our children can live in a world of peace.
>
> Regards,
>   -Nick T.

14-September-2001
This day in Europe has been dedicated to the loss of lives in this sad
tragedy. At 11.00 a.m GMT 3 minutes of silence will be observed in respect
of departed.

Today should be a day of pray. I would ask you where possible to stop what
you are doing and join us.
My heart and prayers goes out to you and your families in the US at this sad
time. Not forgetting the very many others also suffering.

Today is not for recriminations. Put it aside just for today - let that be
for tomorrow.
God Bless.

{Original Message removed}

'[OT]: TRAGEDY IN NEW YORK, EASILY PREVENTABLE'
2001\09\14@060918 by James Newton. Admin 3

face picon face
"Phil" is no longer a member of the PICList.

James Newton, PICList Admin #3
RemoveMEjamesnewtonRemoveMEspampiclist.com
1-619-652-0593 phone
http://www.piclist.com

{Original Message removed}

2001\09\14@063734 by Benjamin Bromilow

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From: James Newton. Admin 3 <TakeThisOuTjamesnewton@spam@spam@spam@PICLIST.COM>
To: <TakeThisOuTPICLISTspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 2:25 PM
Subject: Re: [OT]: TRAGEDY IN NEW YORK, EASILY PREVENTABLE

> And are we really so incompetent that we have to resort to mass violence
to
> solve our problems? If so, then I'm sure we will....


"Violence is the last resort of the ignorant":  Isaac Asimov.
Please note the implicit emphasis on the 1st, 4th, 5th and 8th words.
Think about it.

We need to think about why this has happened, remembering that the above
quotation can apply to both "sides" in this (though I hate that word).

I do, however, find the Afghan response of "we'll release him for trial if
you give us evidence" rather false. It's up to the courts to decide if there
is enough evidence. If there is no evidence then he'll get let off and come
back "home". We need to persuade the Afghans of this point. If they still
refuse to hand him over- and that's assuming we've decided that it is 'him',
then we need to decide whether we want to show the world our international
"ignorance". Violence is an acceptance of failure.

Violence is also a very very strong signal that someone believes
unbelievable change is necessary. Don't forget that they are prepared to
change the state of their existance (ie living to dead) to make this change.
We need to look at why they (and other people) feel this way. Do they have
realistic grievances? Marking them as "mad" does nothing to solve the
problem. For whatever reason, these people felt that it was worth
sacrificing their own lives and those of thousands of innocent people to
create change. Someone is marked as mad if we cannot UNDERSTAND why they
think the way that they think. However, if they looked back at us, how would
they see us.....

The images of Tuesday have left me with a furious anger inside and a
palpable physical sense of sickness but if we respond in a violent
irrational manner, then the hijakers have won. We need to use the
international horror at the above events to force a change in the world.

We need to remove hatred from the world, not more mothers, fathers,
daughters and sons. If we give in to hatred then we (ie the world
population) loose. Can anyone say that through the use of violence we can
irradicate evil without inducing hatred within others or within ourselves.

We need to concentrate on the horror of violence and the evil of hatred and
remove them from our world not increase them.

Pray for peace and understanding thoughout the world.
THEN GO OUT AND MAKE IT HAPPEN. LEAD BY EXAMPLE.

Ben

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2001\09\14@065640 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
> Whatever, point was, the guerillas disappear into the bushes,
> leave the country, go home, lie low for 6 months or 3 years.
> They have probably already done so. There is no standing army,
> no front lines, etc, etc. They wait years to do things.

However they have names and faces, they teach others, and they learn from
others who also have names and faces. The technology is sufficiently
developed to go after them *forever*. Nowadays even a cave dwelling animal
can be routed and trapped at will assuming that the hunters want that.
They can take him or her alive or not, as required.

I do not believe that a/c carriers and jet fighters are required for this.
Afaik so far, all occupying armies known in history eventually lost face
and lost the land they held. Armies are made for fighting other armies,
not ruling and policing. There remains the problem of making the leaders
see the point. Look at Iraq. Tons of bombs, general condamnation, and
nothing changes. It takes something else than war to change and rule a
country.

I also do not believe that bringing terrorists to court is a solution.
They do not speak that language and cases were recorded (and still are)
where they simply hold the court in disdain and make fun of it. Maybe a
review of those medieval methods that did work is in order. I do not like
this but I want to travel safely. And you.

With regard to flight safety, maybe a good move would be to *permit* all
persons with suitable training (which could be all sane males above a
certain age) to carry properly secured but not disabled guns and weapons
on airplanes and all public transportation. Assuming that any terrorists
would be a minority (otherwise they would simply commandeer or steal or
just charter an a/c on the ground), this would give others a very good
chance to fight back. This and a completely separate flight deck (with a
doorless pressurized wall and their own exit door) might change the
picture wrt. safe flight imho. There is no real reason for a door to be
there in the first place imho.

Do you realize that the WTC events could be repeated by a chartered
Learjet or even a venerable DC3 anywhere in the world anytime on a smaller
scale ? And that the passengers could load any amount of crates marked
'geological survey equipment - handle with care' beforehead ? And fly over
the city or reservoir dam or whatever of their choice ? It's anyone's
guess what would be in the crates.

I think that the record of firearms-related violence recorded in countries
that have their citizens carry arms all the time (like Switzerland and
maybe also Israel) is particularly low. Tens of thousands carry loaded,
secured, weapons daily on buses and trains and nothing ever happens. They
keep them under their bed at home or in a cupboard (in Switzerland) and
accidents commited by children etc. only happen once in ten years or so -
with thousands of the guns around. Think about this. I am not a gun nut
and I do not own a gun but I think that it is good as it is. I had a
problem getting used to the idea of 17 year olds carrying M16's with two
full magazines while walking with their girl/boyfriends on the seafront
among 100's of other people but I quickly got used to it.

I think that this issue is controversial but prohibiting knifes on
planes is about as good as prohibition was imho, in that no-one will have
a knife, excepting those who do want to have a knife, and guess who that
might be.

I believe that if even one of the courageous people who attacked the
hijackers on that plane would have had a handgun the outcome could have
been different. After the WTC and Pentagon events I believe that every
male at least who is boarding an a/c would seriously consider training on
the gun and buying and keeping one for that purpose alone. Read some on
militias and how they came to be and you will see what I mean.

One must also consider air patrols. Afaik intercepting a plane on final
ballistic trajectory is extremely hard. Since the attacking plane is in a
dive and has no need to recover it can come at an angle and a speed that
cannot be matched by almost anything, certainly not by a following plane.
Even if hit it may stay on trajectory long enough to hit a target. Even a
slow DC3 could outrun a F16 to the kamikaze target is the former is low
and close and the latter at 30000ft. It simply takes too much time to move
into position and fire even assuming that the first shot hits home and
downs the aircraft. Afaik big jets take much more than one hit to disable
them.

Peter

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2001\09\14@084133 by Benjamin Bromilow

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From: Ron Anthony <KILLspamronantKILLspamspamspamBeGoneOPTONLINE.NET>

> Right now it is YOU who are part of  the problem.  All your good
intentions > are corrupted by your failure to

So when we find who did it, do you really think they'll say they did it
because we where too understanding and treated them too well? Don't be
facile. They did this not because they are "psycho" or "mad" but because
they feel strongly about something. So strongly that they are prepared to
pay with their life and the lives of others. They feel for whatever reason
that the US has wronged them.
Can you honestly say that kicking arse (or whatever you favour) will make
their hatred and the hatred of their children any less? Wake up and get
real. If you want civility in the world you have to lead by example.

> realize reality for what it is.  THANKS FOR NOTHING SIR.  You contribute
NOTHING.

No. He contributes everything. This man lost collegues and friends in the
WTC tragedy and yet he still has the foresight to see the only possibly way
forward. I think your sense of right and wrong is shown by the fact that you
are prepared to attack someone who has just suffered such a tragic loss.
Your lack of compasion is astounding.

Ben

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2001\09\14@090428 by Dale Botkin

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On Fri, 14 Sep 2001, Justin Fielding wrote:

> Ok, let's not get into WW2 as America and other nations have different views
> of their involvement.

Yes, I've noticed some Eurpoeans do seem to have short memories regardign
that episode.

Dale
--
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Hallo, this is Bill Gates and I pronounce 'crap' as 'Windows'.

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2001\09\14@090826 by M. Adam Davis

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Phil, I don't agree with what Justin has been saying either, but please
keep personal attacks off-list.

-Adam

Phil wrote:

{Quote hidden}

>>{Original Message removed}

2001\09\14@093542 by Dale Botkin

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face
On Fri, 14 Sep 2001, Roman Black wrote:

> The Pentagon was a valid target. Fact. If any group
> believes it's at war with the US then the Pentagon
> is a very valid target.
>
> I am curious why Justin's post has caused such
> anger??

Roman, perhaps you missed the news -- the Pentagon was attacked using a
civilian airliner full of innocent noncombatants.  There *is* no valid
target for such a "weapon".  That attack also coincided with other
attacks, using similarly loaded civilian airliners, on nonmilitary
targets.  These attacks brought about the loss of thouands of innocent
lives.  That's why we're so angry.

Dale
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Hallo, this is Bill Gates and I pronounce 'crap' as 'Windows'.

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2001\09\14@100537 by Nick Taylor

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Phil wrote:
>
> What a ignorant moron this idoit must be!!!
> Phil

Phil ... Please stop the personal attacks.  This has been a very
informative topic in a time of world pain, and if we allow it to
degenerate into a flame war James is sure to put an end to it.

Thanks,
  -Nick T.

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2001\09\14@103324 by Jim Guthrie

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On Fri, 14 Sep 2001 08:03:05 -0500, you wrote:

>> Ok, let's not get into WW2 as America and other nations have different views
>> of their involvement.
>
>Yes, I've noticed some Eurpoeans do seem to have short memories regardign
>that episode.

And some have quite long memories - like paying off the lend lease
debt.   Just remember that the US didn't give equipment to other
nations in WW2 - it sold it through a lend lease agreement.

http://british-forces.com/world_war2/otherfiles/lend_lease.html

Probably made a profit out of it as well :-)

Jim.

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2001\09\14@104528 by Nick Taylor

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Excellent post Peter!

"Peter L. Peres" wrote:
>
> However they have names and faces, they teach others, and they learn from
> others who also have names and faces. The technology is sufficiently
> developed to go after them *forever*. Nowadays even a cave dwelling animal
> can be routed and trapped at will assuming that the hunters want that.
> They can take him or her alive or not, as required.

Going after them *forever* is exactly what I fear most!  If we take that
approach the US will turn into another Israel ... and eventually all of
the western world will live in daily fear of terrorist attacks.  I have
12 and 13 year old sons, and that is not the world that I want them to
inherit.
>
> I do not believe that a/c carriers and jet fighters are required for this.
> Afaik so far, all occupying armies known in history eventually lost face
> and lost the land they held. Armies are made for fighting other armies,
> not ruling and policing. There remains the problem of making the leaders
> see the point. Look at Iraq. Tons of bombs, general condamnation, and
> nothing changes. It takes something else than war to change and rule a
> country.

You're correct about invading armies ... most especially true when the
defenders have a religious fervor.  America and the Soviets paid huge
prices and gained nothing in Viet Nam and Afghanistan.
>
> I also do not believe that bringing terrorists to court is a solution.
> They do not speak that language and cases were recorded (and still are)
> where they simply hold the court in disdain and make fun of it. Maybe a
> review of those medieval methods that did work is in order. I do not like
> this but I want to travel safely. And you.

Bring them to court of killing them in place also is not a solution.  It
only give them an immediate free pass to their heavenly rewards, makes
them into martyrs, and gives others further incentive to follow in their
footsteps ... and the conflict does continue *forever*.

As I see it, our only option is too make the price of terrorism so high
as to be unthinkable.  Short of using nuclear weapons the only way that
will make terrorism's price unthinkable is carpet bombing (ala operation
Arc Light) of one or more major cities in each and every country that
supports terrorism ... an extremely drastic step, but the only one
that will stop future terrorist.

Regards,
 -NIck T.

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2001\09\14@111244 by Nick Taylor

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face
Benjamin Bromilow wrote:
>
> Can you honestly say that kicking arse (or whatever you favour) will make
> their hatred and the hatred of their children any less? Wake up and get
> real. If you want civility in the world you have to lead by example.

I heartily agree with you on one point Ben.  The US, the UK, and others
need to apologize for our past exploitation of third world countries ...
and start treating them as equals.  But, just leading by example is not
enough to prevent terrorist attacks.

As horrible as it was, Hiroshima and Nagasaki showed the world that a
nuclear world war is unthinkable.  We must show the world that terrorist
attacks are also unthinkable.  How?  By destroying the infrastructure
of all nations that support or promote terrorism.  Halfway measures will
not work.  We've learned that with the help of Saddam Hussein.  Invasion
will not work.  We learned that in Viet Nam and Afghanistan (I hope).
Mass destruction and loss of life will work ... as we learned in 1945.

Let us pray that Mr. Bush, Mr. Blair, and the rest of the western
world will make choices that lead to a world that is free of the fear
of terrorism.

  -Nick T.

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2001\09\14@120253 by Dan Michaels

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face
At 02:43 PM 9/13/01 -0400, you wrote:
>You asked:
>Question is, where you gonna send
> the cruise missiles?
>
>The answer:
>The missiles will follow them home. Those who harbor & comfort them will
>become targets as well.
..........

>John Ferrell
>6241 Phillippi Rd
>Julian NC 27283


John,

I have it on good authority there is a small cell of 6 or 8
terrorists living in Julian, NC.

The cruise missiles are scheduled to come in at noon today. Easy
target. People sitting in cafes and going to the grocery store.

Now do you understand? [doubtful]



>>
>> Try this scenario - a small band of 100 terrorists from
>> a dozen different countries get together and plan the attack.
>> Afterwards, they disband [into groups of 8-10] and go back to
>> their homes for 6 months. Question is, where you gonna send
>> the cruise missiles?
>>

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2001\09\14@121745 by Roman Black

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face
Dale Botkin wrote:
>
> On Fri, 14 Sep 2001, Roman Black wrote:
>
> > The Pentagon was a valid target. Fact. If any group
> > believes it's at war with the US then the Pentagon
> > is a very valid target.
> >
> > I am curious why Justin's post has caused such
> > anger??
>
> Roman, perhaps you missed the news -- the Pentagon was attacked using a
> civilian airliner full of innocent noncombatants.  There *is* no valid
> target for such a "weapon".  That attack also coincided with other
> attacks, using similarly loaded civilian airliners, on nonmilitary
> targets.  These attacks brought about the loss of thouands of innocent
> lives.  That's why we're so angry.


Dale, yes I did see the news. I also comdemn the
terrorists actions and feel some of the emotion
that the US citizens must be feeling. :o(

But the level of emotion doesn't affect the validity
of the target. If some psycho person believes himself
to be at war with the USA the Pentagon is a valid
target. It's an excellent target. It's a sensible
target. Please let's not let a rational and sane
Piclist dissolve into heated emotional discussion
and personal attacks. I thought Justin's posts
were reasonably appropriate (he didn't swear or
attack anyone) he simply dared to express his views
on the matter. What was dismaying was the amount
of personal flame he received for some fairly tame
words. At no point did Justin say he liked, or agreed
with, or supported the terrorists.

We already see the terrorist's actions turning
piclisters against each other, it would be a shame
if a loss of freedom of speech follows.
-Roman

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2001\09\14@124625 by Jim

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    "Incompetancy of a public employee..."

Nice dodge - "close the gate *after* the horse ..." but
that does little to console those who have been robbed
of their Dad, their husband or their son (Aubrey Hawkins
Irving Police Officer).

We had an opportunity to see this man 'Rivas' testify
too - apparently the jury thought as we did (the public)
and saw fit to first return a guilty verdict, then,
in a seperate action (penalty phase), consider what the punishment would be.

In *this* phase George Rivas took the stand. It wasn't
exactly 'in his own defense' at this stage - it was
actually to plead *for* the death penalty - so, as he
put it, "he wouldn't have to spend life behind bars
like an animal". Whether this was a reverse-psychology
ploy or not - it didn't work. The jury returned, as
punishment, lethal injection.


What about those sickos who molest, torture then kill young children? Can
those people be considered for the death penalty?

Here's another actual case - Raimerz Racindez - the
infamouse 'railroad' killer we caught after he made
his way across the country slicing and dicing
up people - including one female doctor?

On some of this human debris - I would gladly
throw the switch myself - after a proper trial
by jury according to law, and in due consideration
of the facts, of course.

Jim


{Original Message removed}

2001\09\14@133716 by dale

flavicon
face
> On Fri, 14 Sep 2001 08:03:05 -0500, you wrote:
>
> >> Ok, let's not get into WW2 as America and other nations have different views
> >> of their involvement.
> >
> >Yes, I've noticed some Eurpoeans do seem to have short memories regardign
> >that episode.
>
> And some have quite long memories - like paying off the lend lease
> debt.   Just remember that the US didn't give equipment to other
> nations in WW2 - it sold it through a lend lease agreement.
>
> http://british-forces.com/world_war2/otherfiles/lend_lease.html
>
> Probably made a profit out of it as well :-)

It's all a cost/benefit thing, of course.  Just think of all the money saved that would have been spent on German textbooks for the kids!  8-)

Dale
--
A train stops at a train station.  A bus stops at a bus station.
On my desk I have a workstation...

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2001\09\14@134705 by Dan Michaels

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Peter Peres wrote:

>> Whatever, point was, the guerillas disappear into the bushes,
>> leave the country, go home, lie low for 6 months or 3 years.
>> They have probably already done so. There is no standing army,
>> no front lines, etc, etc. They wait years to do things.
>
>However they have names and faces, they teach others, and they learn from
>others who also have names and faces. The technology is sufficiently
>developed to go after them *forever*. Nowadays even a cave dwelling animal
>can be routed and trapped at will assuming that the hunters want that.
>They can take him or her alive or not, as required.
...........
>


Peter, you took this somewhat out of context.

Along with the preceding lines, it was to illustrate that going
in to rout the terrorists where they "were" 2 months ago using
overwhelming force is probably unrealistic. They probably went
into hiding even before last tuesday.

Likewise, carpet bombing innocent populations where terrorists
may be residing is completely foolish, and will only make the
situation worse.

The US govt is working on solutions and telling everyone to stay
calm in the meantime. We should let them do their job, and hope
they do it well.

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2001\09\14@140307 by jamesnewton

face picon face
We also put a lot into rebuilding Japan and Germany (and Italy?) after WWII
(having learned from WWI that oppressing the conquered nation would lead to
a consuming hatred and another war). I think the bombing of Kaquadafi's
(sp?) palace is a better lesson of how to stop it. Don't hurt the people,
just teach the leader a lesson.

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{Original Message removed}

'[OT]: Tragedy/National Geographic Documentary of A'
2001\09\14@144800 by Mike Kendall

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> Hi James,
>     I agree that was a good solution with Kadafi.  It is important to look
> at the culture when considering how to "teach a lesson".  Some cultures
> respect power, might and the resultant use of it.....at the same time some
> cultures do not respect peaceful solutions as they actually view that as
> weakness.  In a way, those types of cultures do not allow peaceful
solutions
> to take place.  As it says in the bible and also in the song from the 60's
> that I like to hear once in a while....."there is a time for everything".
I
> wish that I could get a copy of the National Geographic special from the
mid
> 80's that covered the fighters in the Afghan/Russian war.  It was
> exceptional in providing insight into the way the Afghan's think.  I
watched
> it on TV (I seem to remember around 1985 or 86) and it was ingrained into
my
> memory very clearly ever since...which is saying alot for a TV documentary
> seen 15 years ago.  In that National Geographic special, they covered an
> individual that was especially talented at using stinger missiles at
downing
> Russian helos, a group of fighters, and interviews of the fighters.  They
> showed coverage of the fighters that had actually been mortally injured.
> These people believed that they bypassed the mid-level waiting area of
their
> version of heaven and went straight to their version of heaven.  They
> believed that if they cried out in pain they would not become martyrs and
> lose this opportunity.  The dying person who had horrible injuries, in
fact
> did not cry out at all as he died...nor did he have pain killers.  The
> fighters regularly used hashish as a tool for morale.  I believe that this
> aided in their way of thinking.  Also, during an interview with one of
these
> fighters...Afghanistan has been at war for decades, he expressed shock at
> their then "allies", the USA, in that they had so many bombs, planes, and
> weapons and yet they DIDN'T WANT to be at war with anyone.  He stated that
> he would surely be using these weapons to go to war with someone if it was
> at his disposal.  It was a very eye opening insight for me then and until
> now, I'm impressed with that documentary.  With that in mind, I do not
> believe there is a peaceful solution with these people and that current
> world affairs has nothing to do with the affairs that are currently going
on
> in that country....the Afghanistans REALLY like to fight, as documented
then,
>and it has become a way of life
> for them....to include forms of guerilla warfare and terrorism.  Russia
did
> not succeed with quelling Afghanistan and that was during the height of
the
{Quote hidden}

people,
> > just teach the leader a lesson.
> >
> > ---
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> > {Original Message removed}

2001\09\14@185247 by Herbert Graf

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Why not, it is a valid example? While the US has made some mistakes in the
past, it has also, on the whole, been quite sucessful at routing out some
pretty bad evil in the world. That is the role a superpower must play. Alot
of people complain about the US meddling in their own business, well quite
frankly when "your own business" involves genocide, or brutility against
your fellow man I say meddle away. BTW just for the record I am not American
nor do I live in America.

> {Original Message removed}

2001\09\14@195209 by Nick Taylor

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Jim wrote:
>
>      "Incompetancy of a public employee..."
>
> Nice dodge - "close the gate *after* the horse ..." but
> that does little to console those who have been robbed
> of their Dad, their husband or their son (Aubrey Hawkins
> Irving Police Officer).

Jim ... That isn't a dodge and it isn't what I said or implied.
The gate should have been closed *before* the horse escaped.
Incompetency of a public employee still does not justify state
sponsored murder.

  -Nick T.

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2001\09\14@201926 by Jamen Porteus

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This thread stops here!!!
Why don't you all shut the f#$k up about this.
This crap is appearing in unrelated newsgroups and mailing lists all over
the world.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but they should keep it to
themselves sometimes.
A violent act of this magnitude should bring us together not spurn more
arguments.
RIP those who perished.
Jim

----- Original Message -----
From: Herbert Graf <@spam@mailinglistspamBeGonespamFARCITE.NET>
To: <spam_OUTPICLISTspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2001 1:19 AM
Subject: Re: Tragedy


> Why not, it is a valid example? While the US has made some mistakes in the
> past, it has also, on the whole, been quite sucessful at routing out some
> pretty bad evil in the world. That is the role a superpower must play.
Alot
> of people complain about the US meddling in their own business, well quite
> frankly when "your own business" involves genocide, or brutility against
> your fellow man I say meddle away. BTW just for the record I am not
American
> nor do I live in America.
>
> > {Original Message removed}

2001\09\14@211053 by Dale Botkin

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On Sat, 15 Sep 2001, Roman Black wrote:

> But the level of emotion doesn't affect the validity
> of the target. If some psycho person believes himself
> to be at war with the USA the Pentagon is a valid
> target. It's an excellent target. It's a sensible
> target.

I still maintain:  There *is* no appropriate target for an airliner full
of civilians.  Period, no matter who you are, no matter what your beliefs,
no matter how desperate you think your condition may be.  That was my
point.

Dale
--
Hallo, this is Linus Torvalds and I pronounce Linux as Leennuks.
Hallo, this is Bill Gates and I pronounce 'crap' as 'Windows'.

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2001\09\15@112735 by Reginald Neale

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> >Question is, where you gonna send
> > the cruise missiles?
> >
> >The answer:
> >The missiles will follow them home. Those who harbor & comfort them will
> >become targets as well.



>I have it on good authority there is a small cell of 6 or 8
>terrorists living in (your neighborhood).
>
>The cruise missiles are scheduled to come in at noon today. Easy
>target. People sitting in cafes and going to the grocery store.
>
>Now do you understand? [doubtful]


  Confucius say: When wisdom is needed, force is of little use.

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2001\09\16@034159 by Herbert Graf

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Why not, it is a valid example? While the US has made some mistakes in the
past, it has also, on the whole, been quite sucessful at routing out some
pretty bad evil in the world. That is the role a superpower must play. Alot
of people complain about the US meddling in their own business, well quite
frankly when "your own business" involves genocide, or brutility against
your fellow man I say meddle away. BTW just for the record I am not American
nor do I live in America.

> {Original Message removed}

'[PICLIST] [OT] RE: Tragedy'
2001\09\17@014830 by dr. Imre Bartfai

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Hello,

I want to hurt nobody and I am deeply touched because of the tragedy. I
can not accept ANY violence leading to hurt/death of innocent people. I am
deeply disappointed as I have seen on tv as Palestinians were beeing
lucky about what happened.

But please allow me some remarks:

1. At this point no one in the public opinion has the sure knowledge who
is/are responsible for those attacks. It would be wise not to take any
measure which could be regreted afterwards.

2. I must disagree Mike because of free world <> America even if lot of
people is wanting to believe this.

3. I must remember Americans had also attacked Yugoslavia a lot of times
using aircraft only because of they tought a life of an American soldier
is much more worth than hundreds of civilians of another country. If I
would not right with this opinion, they could have done a targeted action
directed to Miloshevic and capture him. They must have believed it is a
too high political risk to loose soldiers that's why they have choosen not
so focused means. As result, beneath of killing some completely innocent
peoples (it is not significant whether they hated/liked America), they
destroyed a Danubian bridge causing an extremely high damage not only
Yugoslavia but also their allieds as Hungary and Germany. It is a wrong
way nowadays to punish nations rather than punish individuals. Exactly
this tragedy has shown it in a terrible way. Of course, I do not want do
say and I do not think those terrorists have right. In contrary. I want to
express NOBODY has the right to hurt/kill another (innocent) people, even
maybe he is fighting in a holy war for a godness or an idea even if that idea may be
acceptable (e. g. democracy, which is not equal to the American style of
life from my point of view).

Ignoring this, violence could extend with extreme speed as the another
party think: "I strike only back as I was attacked innocently".

I hope I could express myself in a right way.

Regards,

Imre


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On Thu, 13 Sep 2001, Mike Kendall wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> > {Original Message removed}

'[OT]: Tragedy'
2001\09\17@020852 by Herbert Graf

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{Quote hidden}

       True, the Pentagon IS a "valid" target, IN WARTIME!! It is NOT a valid
target when you are suing a plane full of innocent cilivlians. I think that
is the point.

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2001\09\17@110709 by Nick Taylor

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Herbert Graf wrote:
>
> True, the Pentagon IS a "valid" target, IN WARTIME!! It is NOT a valid
> target when you are suing a plane full of innocent cilivlians. I think
> that is the point.

A third world country that feels the need to fight a super power there
is no other course of action that to employ guerrilla tactics which
include terrorism.  As I said in a previous post, this is a new type
of war (for us).  Just as in Viet Nam we used the snipers and ambush
attacks which we had deplored in WW2, we must adapt ... and adopt new
tactics which fit the situation.  The WW1 air war a "gentleman's war",
but we now live in a different world and our old rules of conduct no
longer apply ... either to our enemies or to us.

 -Nick T.

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'[OT]: Was: Tragedy Now: Freedom made the differen'
2001\09\17@114451 by Jim

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    "A third world country that feels
     the need to fight a super power..."

It seems to me that not all too long ago
(historically) that America was a 3rd world
power (by today's standards).

Why is it, in a relatively short time historically
speaking, that America has managed to crawl out of
that category, yet the mored "aged", so-called "civil-
izations" remain, in some cases, as they are, *locked*
in the same century or age or developmental stage as
they have seemingly always been in?

Freedom, I think, is the answer.

It's freedom, as opposed to the enslavement both of
men's bodies and minds that seems to be the differ-
entiating factor. It's freedom as found in America,
freedom that allows private property ownership, freedom
that allows redress of grievances of her citizens to
her government, freedom based on a written body of
laws written by elected representatives as opposed
to a dicatatorial military authority which came to
power by force.

It's Freedom as found in no other environ on the face
of this earth that has worked to *allow* her to prosper
by the hardwork and sweat of those millions from all
over the globe that came to her shores **also seeking
freedom** and a better way of life ...

Respectfully, IMO (of course)

Jim




{Original Message removed}

'[OT]: Tragedy'
2001\09\17@204827 by Brandon Fosdick

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"James Newton. Admin 3" wrote:
> ???
> "Your right to swing your arm stops where my nose begins"

I think Winsten Churchill said that. I seem to rember discussing it in a
high school class on ethics or something. I also think the quote was
closer to, "A man's right to swing his fist ends where another man's
nose begins", and I may be really reaching here, but I think it was said
while he inspected a city that had been bombarded by V2's.

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2001\09\17@225255 by Russell McMahon

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> "James Newton. Admin 3" wrote:
> > ???
> > "Your right to swing your arm stops where my nose begins"
>
> I think Winsten Churchill said that. I seem to rember discussing it in a
> high school class on ethics or something. I also think the quote was
> closer to, "A man's right to swing his fist ends where another man's
> nose begins", and I may be really reaching here, but I think it was said
> while he inspected a city that had been bombarded by V2's.

Apparently it was -

       Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes

       "The right to swing my fist ends where the other man's nose begins."

       http://www.sodabob.com/Constitution/otherquotes.asp


And many more goodish quotes (somewhat) related to the US Bill of Rights


RM

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'[OT]: RE: Tragedy'
2001\09\18@023232 by Herbert Graf

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> This thread stops here!!!

       For you perhaps, all you have to do is turn off the "no tag" topic thread
to stop receiving these messages.

> Why don't you all shut the f#$k up about this.

       Because this is one of those points in history that everyone will
unfortunately remember, because people need to talk about this, it is human
nature. Many people have lost more than you can ever imagine, it is not
right to just forget about it IMHO. Again, if you don't want to see these
posts then turn off this topic tag (in the case of this message the [OT]
tag).

> This crap is appearing in unrelated newsgroups and mailing lists all over
> the world.

       I believe by calling this "crap" you owe the whole of the US an apology.

> Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but they should keep it to
> themselves sometimes.

       We live in a free world with freedom of speech, if one wishes it is there
right to express their opinion.

> A violent act of this magnitude should bring us together not spurn more
> arguments.

       And what praytell are you doing by your statement "Why don't you all shut
the f#$k up about this."?? Is this how you "bring us together" by telling us
to shut up?

> RIP those who perished.

       And a prayer for their families as well, I can't imagine the sort of
situation they are in right now, it is unbelievable.

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'[OT]: [AR] Shuttle tragedy'
2003\02\04@012051 by Russell McMahon
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Mixed thoughts on posting this.
Unsure where the voreism starts and the strong desire to be a helpful part
of something one can forever not be a helpful part of.

If this is, as it claims to be it is video footage taken over Sparks, Nevada
some 7 minutes prior to Columbia's final breakup, and clearly shows
something leaving the Orbiter with a significant flash. If this tape is
genuine then authorities will presumably be searching in that area for what
could well be the most significant piece of evidence available.

       Russell McMahon

__________________________________________________

> Had not seen any posts on this yet.  It was taken by an amateur
> astronomer in NM.
> It appears to show the first stages of the break up.
>
> http://www.rgj.com/news/stories/html/2003/02/01/33451.php
>
> Leif

____________________

Wow!  This would appear to be one of the first pieces, perhaps the initial
one before the shuttle broke up, exactly when the first instrument went off
scale forward of the left wing root.  Since Columbia's passing Venus, one
should be able to map a fairly small search area for the piece that fell
off.

By my boe calculations it's pretty close to seven minutes from Sparks to
Nacogdoches.  Anybody have an ephemeris handy, along with a fairly good lat
and long for Sparks?  One could estimate scale with a little info on the
guy's camera.

Dave Klingler

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