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'[PICLIST] Speedtrap warning device using any GPS r'
2001\11\03@101408 by APRS Mobiel

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'[PIC]: Re: Speedtrap warning device using any GPS '
2001\11\03@101914 by asena

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Hi!

Check at http://www.qsl.net/ct2gpw, if you can get some ideas. Browse to the electronics/radioelectronics/APRS.


Sena




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'[PICLIST] =%5BPIC%5D%3A Speedtrap warning device u'
2001\11\03@111409 by APRS Mobiel

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2001\11\03@121357 by M. Adam Davis

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What is it that you plan on doing with the GPS?  How is the GPS supposed
to warn you of a speedtrap?

-Adam

APRS Mobiel wrote:

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2001\11\03@140152 by Nick Ray
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The system uses a database of known speed trap locations and alerts you when
the GPS position nears one of them. There are one or 2 commercial systems
availiable here in the UK, but I don't know accurate their data is.

Useless for mobile traps though..

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'[PIC]: Speedtrap warning device using any GPS rece'
2001\11\03@143255 by M. Adam Davis

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So all he needs is a PIC which will take the current location, output by
the GPS, and calculate the distance to a known set of points, triggering
an alarm when a trap is within .5km or something?

Since the distances are so small, one could even ignore the great circle
equations, and go straight to the square root of the sum of the squares
of the differences in latitude and longitude.  Could probably perform a
few tricks there as well using tables, or by alarming when both lat and
long are within one mile of the trap's lat and long.  Since the GPS only
updates every second, it'd have a full second to compare the current
position with the table of traps, which is plenty of time.

The hardest part, in fact, would probably be the serial reception and
NMEA parsing, and deciding how to store the trap coordinates.

Of course, it would be better to use APRS and a radar detector so you
could warn others of mobile speed traps you find as well.

-Adam

Nick Ray wrote:

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'[PICLIST] =%5BPIC%5D%3A Speedtrap warning device u'
2001\11\03@154326 by Russell McMahon

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> What is it that you plan on doing with the GPS?  How is the GPS supposed
> to warn you of a speedtrap?

One method is to use GPS to derive speed across ground (taking account also
for elevation) and ensure that your velocity vector never exceeds the local
speed limit. You could also map speed limit boundaries to determine the
appropriate change points.

Generally intelligent application of a speedometer, brain and eyes works
well enough already. It's a cheap solution (as most systems are already
equipped with all the components) and it can provide an almost 100% success
rate against speeding, let alone speeding tickets. From what I've heard it's
FAR more successful at achieving a lack of speeding tickets than the results
reported by people using RADAR / LIDAR detectors.



   RM :-)

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'[PIC]: Speedtrap warning device using any GPS rece'
2001\11\03@170712 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
> So all he needs is a PIC which will take the current location, output by
> the GPS, and calculate the distance to a known set of points, triggering
> an alarm when a trap is within .5km or something?
>
> Since the distances are so small, one could even ignore the great circle
> equations, and go straight to the square root of the sum of the squares
> of the differences in latitude and longitude.  Could probably perform a
> few tricks there as well using tables, or by alarming when both lat and
> long are within one mile of the trap's lat and long.  Since the GPS only
> updates every second, it'd have a full second to compare the current
> position with the table of traps, which is plenty of time.
>
> The hardest part, in fact, would probably be the serial reception and
> NMEA parsing, and deciding how to store the trap coordinates.
>
> Of course, it would be better to use APRS and a radar detector so you
> could warn others of mobile speed traps you find as well.

Alternatively you could try obeying the speed limit.


********************************************************************
Olin Lathrop, embedded systems consultant in Littleton Massachusetts
(978) 742-9014, .....olinKILLspamspam@spam@embedinc.com, http://www.embedinc.com

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2001\11\03@181233 by APRS Mobiel

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2001\11\03@210629 by M. Adam Davis

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Do, or do not.  There is no try.

-Adam

Olin Lathrop wrote:

>Alternatively you could try obeying the speed limit.
>

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'[PICLIST] =%5BPIC%5D%3A Speedtrap warning device u'
2001\11\04@015941 by artstar

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In other words, what you're saying is "drive slow". What needs to be
realised here, without getting into an argument about who's right and
who's wrong, is that people will go over the speed limit - be it a
little or a lot.

So, for those who want such a device, help them out for the sake of what
this PIClist is about, rather than preaching about what is deemed
appropriate motorist behaviour. Fair enough?

Adios,
LarZ

---------------  TAMA - The Strongest Name in Drums  ---------------

{Original Message removed}

'[PIC]: Speedtrap warning device using any GPS rece'
2001\11\04@031355 by Russell McMahon

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> Olin Lathrop wrote:
>
> >Alternatively you could try obeying the speed limit.
> >

> Do, or do not.  There is no try.

Perfection may be the aim.
All probably fall short of the mark.
An honest try seems to work most of the time.

I think even the most socially aware of us have manage to exceed posted
limits on occasion.
It may be that there are administrations who ARE out to mainly gather money
and who ARE totally unreasonable in their policing but at least in this
country, if you honestly try to observe speed limits at all times, the end
result is approximately no tickets for speeding, over a 30 + year period -
based on a sample of 1. I in fact did receive a speeding ticket on a
motorcycle (and I was speeding *) and they let me off on receipt of my
written explanation. Being able to say that the officer concerned had
complimented me on my riding ability after I lost him in corners (at less
than the speed limit) (as I avoided his unmarked car's attempts to run me
off the road) no doubt helped my case :-).

I find motor vehicles indispensable. However, on the subject of perfection
and driving, I concluded long ago that if Jesus Christ were to have
physically lived in this era then he would not drive a motor vehicle. The
alternative's seem to be to either to break the law consciously and
repeatedly or to drive in such a careful manner as to annoy many others and
to cause them to do worse than they otherwise would have. Neither choice
seems acceptable if observance of the letter and spirit of the law is
desired. As driving one's self is not a necessity it would seem to be better
to not do it.


regards,




       Russell McMahon

(* - there's a little more to this story which makes it almost amusing. In
the most unlikely event that anyone wants to know ask offlist).

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2001\11\04@040305 by uter van ooijen & floortje hanneman

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> > Search for someone who is able to help advice to
> > make/develop a small pice of firmware inside a
> > PIC like 16Fxx or any other.

You can phone me for some advice, but I do not have the time to do the
development itself.

Wouter
033-4621296

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'[OT]: Speedtrap warning device using any GPS recei'
2001\11\04@081453 by Roman Black

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> Olin Lathrop wrote:
>
> >Alternatively you could try obeying the speed limit.


Olin, if the government told you they had determined
that a huge amount of injuries could be avoided if people
were forced to walk REALLY SLOWLY, ie, never walk fast
or run, no matter what your health level, ability or
physical training is...

Would you walk REALLY SLOWLY the rest of your life?
Never walk fast again? Never run again? Taking those
options away from YOU because there is a small segment
of the community that fall over when they walk fast
and get hurt??

The only sane reality is where people must use their
maturity, social conscience and skills to walk just
quick enough to get where they want to go without
hurting themselves or others. Always allowing for a
small random disaster percentage, this is reality
after all.

To force ALL people to walk REALLY SLOWLY is some
type of dystopian hell where the competent 80% of
society must forever pay for the incompetence of
the other 20%.

And I didn't even mention revenue raising...
-Roman

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2001\11\04@110911 by Arnold Chord

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Interesting concept...except walking and running is a Human right, driving
is a human responsibility.
If I weighed 2500 pounds and could travel in excess of 80 miles and hour  I
would consider this a legitimate arguement.

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'[PICLIST] =%5BPIC%5D%3A Speedtrap warning device u'
2001\11\04@114156 by APRS Mobiel

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Dear Adam,

Thanks for reply.
The idea is using a PIC and extra RAM to store all
known speedtrap GPS locations into RAM.
(here in NL around 2000)

When driving on the road toward the known location/GPS
coordinates, the warning device sounds his alarm.

Personaly think could be very simple pice of device
with just 1 PIC, piezo and some LED blink.

Bertus.


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  AMATEUR BOUWKITS, BESTELLEN EN PRIJZEN STAAN OP:
   http://www.geocities.com/aprsmobiel/PRIJS.HTM
 Please also visit my Kreidler and Zuendapp pagina at:
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'[OT]: Speedtrap warning device using any GPS recei'
2001\11\04@115939 by David VanHorn

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At 07:34 AM 11/4/01 -0800, Arnold Chord wrote:
>Interesting concept...except walking and running is a Human right, driving
>is a human responsibility.
>If I weighed 2500 pounds and could travel in excess of 80 miles and hour  I
>would consider this a legitimate arguement.

I think the more relevant point is that in a walking accident, you aren't
likely to take out very many of your co-walkers or bystanders.

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2001\11\04@132934 by Sandy Phelps

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I think it is astonishing the extent and expense that
people will go to detect or defeat radar.
It's much easier to just drive under the speed limit.
It's low stress, low cost and considering the efforts
to avoid a ticket, saves time.
Sandy Phelps

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2001\11\04@142027 by APRS Mobiel

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dear "M. Adam Davis",

I not able to remember over 2000 locations inside
Netherlands only.
Within Germany there are also around 2000 camera
loctions.
I know in UK and FR the use the same (GATSORADAR)
cameras.
Not sure how many there are.
Most time you know there is a camera on the road,
but where is it stand exacly...?
FLITS/FLASH  oeps there it was......

I think only the LON/LAT will do the trick.
All these info is present i the GPS $GPRMC string.
In $GPRMC is also, heading and speed over ground.

The only GPS NMEA string needed,
look like its the $GPRMC...
The rest of the GPS, could be rejected.

Bertus.


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2001\11\04@142300 by David VanHorn

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At 10:28 AM 11/4/01 -0800, Sandy Phelps wrote:
>I think it is astonishing the extent and expense that
>people will go to detect or defeat radar.
>It's much easier to just drive under the speed limit.
>It's low stress, low cost and considering the efforts
>to avoid a ticket, saves time.
>Sandy Phelps

If it was always deployed for speed enforcement, instead of revenue
enhancement, maybe people would feel differently.  When I got tagged in
Hawaii, I was, according to the officer's testimony, out of his sight
around a corner, and over the crest of a hill, and just one car in five
lanes of traffic. Additionally, his position was only a few hundred yards
from the aircraft carrier enterprise (they commonly run high powered radar
in port), and under a flight path where aircraft are landing, with weather
radar operating in the same band as his speed gun.

Additionally, I wasn't speeding, but none of that mattered.

After I brought out all this in court, the judge explained to me that in
his "radar court" (yes a special court, with special rules, just for us)
the only admissible testimony would come from the arresting officer, and
the radar gun manufacturer, who was not present.

They wave the gun, you pay the fine, see the cashier on the way out.

This incident also resulted in my arrest for contempt of court, a charge
that I heartily agreed with.







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2001\11\04@143711 by Chris Carr

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> I know in UK and FR the use the same (GATSORADAR)
> cameras.
> Not sure how many there are.
> Most time you know there is a camera on the road,
> but where is it stand exacly...?
> FLITS/FLASH  oeps there it was......
>
Why don't you just lobby your government like the
boy racers in the UK did. Now all the Speed Cameras are
to be painted in high visibility colours and sign
posts are to be erected warning you of this road hazard
Giving you sufficient distance to slow down before you get
to them.

Chris Carr

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2001\11\04@154922 by APRS Mobiel

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Dear Olin Lathrop,

You are 100% right about that, afcourse.

Here in NL there are over 2000 !! yes 2000 af those
speedtraps.
These cameras get to action when your drive 3 Km/h
near 2 mph to fast......
Do you view your speedometer at alltimes ?
I must honiest say, iam not .....

And thit is only a idea to find out if is technical
possible.

Maby we give it more friendly name to please veryone
like, "GPS WAYPOINT RECOVERY UNIT".... =:)

But this is other discussion i dont like to discus
overhere.

Thank you for your comment.


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2001\11\04@203458 by Russell McMahon

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> Here in NL there are over 2000 !! yes 2000 af those
> speedtraps.
> These cameras get to action when your drive 3 Km/h
> near 2 mph to fast......
> Do you view your speedometer at alltimes ?
> I must honiest say, iam not .....

Serious suggestion: An accurate audible warning speedometer alarm seems like
a sensible option in such cases. This would not stop you speeding but would
warn you so that you would never do it by accident. Such a device is
trivially easy to build for most speedometers. A little complexity would
allow pleasant brief tones repeated only occasionally to prevent annoyance
if ongoing above-limit driving was desired. Then at least the problem
mentioned above would not exist.




       Russell McMahon

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2001\11\05@045617 by APRS Mobiel

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Beste Wouter van ooijen & floortje hanneman,

> > > Search for someone who is able to help advice to
> > > make/develop a small pice of firmware inside a
> > > PIC like 16Fxx or any other.
>
> You can phone me for some advice, but I do not have
> the time to do the
> development itself.
>
> Wouter
> 033-4621296

Hartelijk dank voor je spontane reactie.
Ik ben VUTTER en heb geen enkele kennis op gebied
maken van firmware in PICs.
Na een advies van derden
daarom ook mijn oproepje in de PICLIST.

Ik heb een idee voor maken van snelheid verklikker of
iets dergelijks.
Voor hoge nauwkeurigheid met hulp van een GPS
ontvanger.

Groetjes,
Bertus.

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2001\11\05@053631 by Gerhard Fiedler

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At 00:02 11/05/2001 +1100, Roman Black wrote:
>Olin, if the government told you they had determined that a huge amount of
>injuries could be avoided if ...

I thought most of us here lived in some kind of democracy... Australia, UK,
US, ... (Yes, I know that some of the Republicans in the US think they live
in a republic and not a democracy, but I still have to see a commonly
accepted definition of democracy by which the US is a republic but not a
democracy... :)

One of the basic conecpts of a democracy is that there are rules to be
followed by all (usually some kind of basic law or constitution and then
the simpler laws made up by some kind of legilative institution), usually
made up by elected representatives of the people. So the common way to
change rules that don't suit the majority in such a situation would be
through election of representatives that represent the will of the people
better.

Sounds to me that a majority stands behind the speeding laws, and somehow
the ones who want to defy them have a problem with democracy. I think the
better way to deal with the dislike of these laws would be a political
action to abolish them. Can be done -- if you can find a majority. If you
can't, well, then...

ge

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2001\11\05@064221 by artstar

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There are also people who:

1) Vote because they don't want to pay a fine for not doing so
2) Attend the elections but choose to vote the "donkey"
3) Vote agreeing with most of what one politician stands for, but not
all things
4) Are disenchanted with the way the system works and gain a sense of
hopelessness, thereby doing nothing to change the system

Now let's face it, democracy or not, no government would ever sacrifice
one of their biggest revenue raising businesses like traffic
infringements. We in Australia have a federal election coming up this
Saturday and the campaigns have been fierce. The major hook for one
party has been the broken promises of the current government. They've
replayed footage prior to the last election and then shown the results
today. Sure, a politician can promise you abolishment of this, relaxing
speeding laws, etc etc, but then again, that promise is not legally
binding either. If you know of a country where people can vote things
into submission, name the country and I'll gladly take my car there with
me! Realistically, you don't have control of what goes on behind closed
government doors.

Democracy was something invented by the Greeks many a moon ago. Though
it may live on, it has taken a path of contamination. Get used to that
concept of democracy, because that's what we're living in.

Adios,
LarZ

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{Original Message removed}

2001\11\05@080242 by Dennis Noordsij

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Hi,

> > Some time ago getting a idea to make speedtrap
> > warning device with help using normal GPS
> > receivers.
> > Myself totaly no software coder or what so ever and
> > only have this idea in my mind.

This wouldn't be because such a device is now commercially (although under
investigation and possibly soon outlawed together with speed radar jammers)
available in the Netherlands? :-)

It's not too complicated an idea, you have fixed positions for all known
camera's as well as the direction they look in, and if the current position
is on a collision course (about) with a camera it will sound a warning.

In the commercial version they have added speed-limits for all roads as well,
so the device knows how fast you are allowed to go there. It of course knows
your car's speed via GPS. Actually since you can approach the camera from a
corner (where collision detection would be too late) they probably took the
camera, then added a waypoint 500mtrs before and after the camera, once you
cross this line (run over the waypoint so to speak) you are in a camera
hot-spot. Then again maybe they just use a 250mtr radius around the camera
(math, yay :-)

Dennis

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2001\11\06@045815 by jeethur

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> Democracy was something invented by the Greeks many a moon ago. Though
> it may live on, it has taken a path of contamination. Get used to that
> concept of democracy, because that's what we're living in.

<RANT_MODE>
Yeah, that's what I've been observing for a long time. Let's face it.
Democracy has been around for a long time. And it ain't the best or the
Most efficient system around. Communism? That might get to be worse than
Democracy. Although Democracy is quite a peaceful deal, the basic fact I
observed was that there is no plausible way in which Democracy can run
without corruption. i.e No Corruption No Democracy. I've written a long
doc about this but fear the local cops might catch me on the Basis of
Article 19
Of my Indian Constitution:" Inflammatory Writings". This is one of the
weak
Defenses Indian democracy has against a revolution.
</RANT_MODE>

Jeethu Rao

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2001\11\06@070639 by Russell McMahon

picon face
> Sure, a politician can promise you abolishment of this, relaxing
> speeding laws, etc etc, but then again, that promise is not legally
> binding either.

I'm interested to hear that relaxing speeding laws (by this do you mean
increasing some speed limits?) has actually been an election plank.
In this country (across the ditch) speed limits themselves are usually
(almost always) recommended by road safety experts who advise government on
the tradeoffs between speed limits and probably range of road deaths and
injuries. How this is administered may be another matter.

> If you know of a country where people can vote things
> into submission, name the country and I'll gladly take my car there with
> me! Realistically, you don't have control of what goes on behind closed
> government doors.

It's interesting to find a person for whom the ability to drive a car fast
on a public road is such a pure passion that they are willing to put it
ahead of all of life's other priorities to the extent of migrating (complete
with car) based on this consideration alone. For most people other factors,
such as quality of life, employment, security, road safety and much more,
would come ahead of this on the list. Presumably Germany with its unlimited
speed autobahns would be a good starting point without having to rely on
future results from uncertain political promises.

There must also be quite a few countries which have no speed limit in much
of their area. Afghanistan may well be one, especially at present, and you
would probably find that fast driving is presently both encouraged and
commonly understood. You could probably consider many of the previous
Russian Republics for much the same reasons and no doubt large areas of
Africa would suit your requirements.

The secondary considerations such as general survivability and other factors
as above, may direct the final choice. Let us know which of these options
you choose.

> Democracy was something invented by the Greeks many a moon ago. Though
> it may live on, it has taken a path of contamination. Get used to that
> concept of democracy, because that's what we're living in.

Yes. You are quite correct that Democracy has been contaminated from the
pure form created by the Greeks. Nowadays anybody is allowed to vote -
including the female half of the population that the Greeks excluded and in
most countries you can't find a decent slave for love or money, so there's
no question of them not being allowed to vote either. It's just not the same
in a Democracy without the slaves!
We won't even mention the furriners (who the Greeks regarded as sheep ( -
"Baaaah barians") Apart from that though it seems pretty much the same then
as now. Human nature hasn't changed much. The Greeks elected 500 men
(literally) by public vote to represent them. Why anyone would think that
they then did this in an unbiased manner I cannot imagine. The richer were
known to have disliked this system which gave so much power to the common
people. Also, Greek democracy lasted only for short periods and in limited
areas , interspersed by bouts of warfare. No real comparison with the much
more temporally stable modern perversions.

In this country at least, if any group has a single interest issue that is
REALLY important to a small but significant portion of the population then
they can form a political party and have enough weight to be sure that their
views are listened to. This is a result of our "MMP" proportional voting
system and the relatively fine balance of power. Maybe you need to agitate
to change your voting system or pack up your car and ship it across the
Tasman to NZ and set up a new political party? :-)

regards,




                                   Russell McMahon

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2001\11\06@141638 by steve

flavicon
face
> There must also be quite a few countries which have no speed limit in
> much of their area. Afghanistan may well be one, especially at
> present, and you would probably find that fast driving is presently
> both encouraged and commonly understood.

The faster you go, the less blown up you get.
To paraphrase -
Afghanistan is an example where exceeding the speed limit saves
lives.

I thought you were taking the opposite stance. :-)

> In this country at least, if any group has a single interest issue
> that is REALLY important to a small but significant portion of the
> population then they can form a political party and have enough weight
> to be sure that their views are listened to. This is a result of our
> "MMP" proportional voting system and the relatively fine balance of
> power. Maybe you need to agitate to change your voting system or pack
> up your car and ship it across the Tasman to NZ and set up a new
> political party? :-)

No, that won't work. "Speeding" doesn't pass the syllable test. The
criteria for these sorts of things is that the subject matter has more
syllables than "envelope". If it meets that criteria, it is too
complicated for the other politians and the views of trendy lefty
weirdo hippie has-beens must take precedence over years of
research by experts in the field.

Steve.

======================================================
Steve Baldwin                Electronic Product Design
TLA Microsystems Ltd         Microcontroller Specialists
PO Box 15-680, New Lynn      http://www.tla.co.nz
Auckland, New Zealand        ph  +64 9 820-2221
email: @spam@stevebKILLspamspamtla.co.nz      fax +64 9 820-1929
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2001\11\06@211930 by Russell McMahon

picon face
Reply to pvt response to a public posting so I'll remove some details ...

> Really? So how democratic is compulsory voting here in xxx? Do
> people NOT have a right NOT to vote either?

Nothing is a perfect implementation of any system.
Names are just convenient labels to hang general groups of concepts on.
I suspect that many of the "democracies" that we have in the world today are
similar if not better in "goodness" to anything the Greek's achieved.
Nothing's perfect and even if it were there would still be a good percentage
of us who didn't like it :-)
eg for "half reasonable" democracys try UK, USA, NZ, Australia, Canada to
name just a few. There are many more but these I'm most familiar with. Some
like Fiji and Nigeria meet the test marginally if at all. It is utterly
inconceivable to most anyone here in NZ that the armed forces may one
morning rise up and take over the government. Not impossible - just
inconceivable :-)

I'm afraid I'm not fully up to date with the fine implementation details of
voting systems in other countries.
I know that even though voting is "compulsory" here, there is no actual
compulsion to vote or penalty for not doing so. Sometimes it is excedding
hard to get people to stand up for their own rights, and voting for those
who rule us is a major right. I'm not quite sure why you have a problem with
compulsory voting as I thought the perceived problem was our inability to
influence those in authority.



> NOTHING is democratic,

as above. I think what we have in many countries approximates the spirit of
the ideal reasonably well given the general nature of the human nature.

> and the only reason why Greek democracy only
> lasted in the short periods was because they weren't warring with each
> other, but rather defending themselves against invasions. Let's not make
> the democracy look like the culprit for the warfare.

I'm not a historian. I understand (possibly wrongly) that much of the
Greek's wars were in fact amongst the various nation states that we came to
know as Greece. Certainly external invaders can't help much. External
invasion by itself doesn't break down your form of government unless the
invaders succeeed and impose their form of government instead. certainly,
internal invasion applies pressures and we often see democarcy retreat from
such pressures to some extent - it is a somewhat fragile flower. cf eg WW2
war government of Britain and current restrictions in a number of countries
due to recent world events.

> Don't delude yourself Russell. Better yet, delude yourself, but not
> others.

Delusion is oft enough the result of a strongly held viepoint that is not
exposed to critical examination and exchange of views in a  wider forum. If
you or I can't examine our perspectives publicly we are more liable to be
deluded than if we do - always providing that we are also ready to have our
viewpoints changed by suitably logical and robust argument. I find that most
such discussions add to my always incomplete understanding of the matter
under scrutiny - which doesn't always amount to a change of viewpoint :-)


regards


           Russell



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2001\11\07@140706 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
> I suspect that many of the "democracies" that we have in the world
> today are similar if not better in "goodness" to anything the Greek's
> achieved.

One of the things carefully omitted from the laudation of democracies is
the fact that at no time in ancient Greek history did a democracy exist
without a slave holding state. The other is that after the democracy
lasted for some time everything started going down fast, into decadence
and dictatorship and worse, and then there was a small 1600 year break
until someone remembered it without getting burned on the stake for having
such a good memory. So enjoy it while it lasts folks ;-(

Peter

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