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'[PICLIST] Sean B.'
2000\09\12@213250 by Andy Kunz

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Sean,

Don't have your address here.  Video is at

http://www.montanadesign.com/rocket.mpg

It's about 2.4M long.

CD will go out in the AM along with the tape.

Andy

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2000\09\12@225126 by Sean H. Breheny

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Hey Andy,

That was GREAT work! Exactly what I wanted! Thanks so much.

For anyone who is wondering, this is the video of my recent PIC-based
rocket project. More info can be found at

http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/shb7/btsam.html

At 09:30 PM 9/12/00 -0400, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2000\09\12@230430 by David VanHorn

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>
>For anyone who is wondering, this is the video of my recent PIC-based
>rocket project. More info can be found at
>
>http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/shb7/btsam.html


It would appear that the world is still safe from democracy.. :)

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2000\09\12@233131 by Sean H. Breheny

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HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA, ROTFL, yes INDEED!

As I said in my disclaimer at the top of my page, the FBI /CIA (or whoever
supposedly is listening with ESCHELON) has nothing to worry about from this
project!

Sean

At 09:58 PM 9/12/00 -0500, you wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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2000\09\13@002400 by Sean H. Breheny

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For anyone else interested in some "PIC project failed in a funny way"
humor, I copied the video over to my site at:

http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/shb7/rocket.mpg

Think I should put a link to this on my resume? ;-)

Sean


At 09:58 PM 9/12/00 -0500, you wrote:

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2000\09\13@010620 by Tim Hamel

picon face
I love it! The ending laughter made it even funnier. Was the problem ever
pinpointed?


-- Tim H.

In a message dated 9/12/00 9:53:39 PM Pacific Daylight Time, shb7EraseMEspam.....CORNELL.EDU
writes:


<< For anyone else interested in some "PIC project failed in a funny way"
humor, I copied the video over to my site at:

http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/shb7/rocket.mpg

Think I should put a link to this on my resume? ;-)

Sean

>>

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2000\09\13@015022 by Bob Ammerman

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Don't consider it a failure - rather it is a learning experience.

Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems
(contract development of high performance, high function, low-level
software)

{Original Message removed}

2000\09\13@030124 by Sean H. Breheny

face picon face
Hi Tim,

Yeah, when I saw  the video, I started laughing again because I thought it
was a typical example of a couple of engineering nerds making fools out of
themselves :-) (You can see my partner in crime, Anish, an EE student at
Columbia Univ. in the left of the video frame. He actually hit the launch
button) Of course, I do still consider it a worthwhile learning experience
(it involved DSP, mechanical engineering, aerodynamics, flight simulation,
control theory, etc.)

If you take a look at http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/shb7/btsam.html ,
you can see more about it. Actually, the problem was that I forgot a major
consideration during design: wind. The idea was for the rocket to seek the
target suspended from the balloons you see in the background.

What I forgot to take into account (until the day of the launch when it was
too late) was that wind would cause the target to move around so much that
it was impossible to point the rocket at it. By the time I had the rocket
pointed and stepped back to launch, the balloons and target had moved out
of the light sensor's field of view. SO, we decided to launch anyway(and
see what the rocket might do!) because that was the last opportunity I
would get before I had to go back up to school.

I am attempting to analyze the video to get a rough idea of the rocket path
and orientation. As you can see at the beginning of the video, the rocket
fins are moving, so the search algo was running, and I want to see if the
rocket path was at least consistent with what the PIC was supposed to be
doing in the absence of a strong signal.

I plan on trying again, but due to expense, it will probably be about a
year before I do so.

Sean


At 01:04 AM 9/13/00 -0400, you wrote:
>I love it! The ending laughter made it even funnier. Was the problem ever
>pinpointed?
>
>
>-- Tim H.

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2000\09\13@032713 by Tim Hamel

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Hello Sean,

Like someone said..you learn from experience. And, judging by your mail, you
learned alot either way.

I'm curious about something, there has to be other ways to track a target
instead of IR? IR seems too directional w/out a wide angle of "attack."

I think an on-board camera for next time would be quite neat, maybe even
implement on-board altimeters?

All in all, I think your project was the awesome-est =) Just think, if you
perfect it, install multi-stage engines (enough to make it to Mars), you
could show NASA how it's REALLY done <g>.

Best Regards,

Tim Hamel

In a message dated 9/13/00 12:02:16 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
RemoveMEshb7spam_OUTspamKILLspamCORNELL.EDU writes:


<< Hi Tim,

Yeah, when I saw  the video, I started laughing again because I thought it
was a typical example of a couple of engineering nerds making fools out of
themselves :-) (You can see my partner in crime, Anish, an EE student at
Columbia Univ. in the left of the video frame. He actually hit the launch
button) Of course, I do still consider it a worthwhile learning experience
(it involved DSP, mechanical engineering, aerodynamics, flight simulation,
control theory, etc.)

If you take a look at http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/shb7/btsam.html ,
you can see more about it. Actually, the problem was that I forgot a major
consideration during design: wind. The idea was for the rocket to seek the
target suspended from the balloons you see in the background.

What I forgot to take into account (until the day of the launch when it was
too late) was that wind would cause the target to move around so much that
it was impossible to point the rocket at it. By the time I had the rocket
pointed and stepped back to launch, the balloons and target had moved out
of the light sensor's field of view. SO, we decided to launch anyway(and
see what the rocket might do!) because that was the last opportunity I
would get before I had to go back up to school.

I am attempting to analyze the video to get a rough idea of the rocket path
and orientation. As you can see at the beginning of the video, the rocket
fins are moving, so the search algo was running, and I want to see if the
rocket path was at least consistent with what the PIC was supposed to be
doing in the absence of a strong signal.

I plan on trying again, but due to expense, it will probably be about a
year before I do so.

Sean

>>

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2000\09\13@041951 by Glenn West

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Just wondering is if you use a "array"of detectors, then
you can get a idea very quickly, and increase the field of view.
Why the "high" cost? Did you have to scrap everything,
or can you just treak it?

Also, might consider using a high-speed part if you have multiple
sensors, just image, even from the side you could determine the
direction of the target, so you could look left, look right, and then move
the "nosecone" to point towards the target. I would think you want at least
a 180 degree spread, and may be do-able, of course weight is
always the issue.

At 03:25 PM 9/13/2000, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2000\09\13@050146 by Sean H. Breheny

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Thanks, Tim!

Actually, I plan on trying another PIC-rocket project in only a couple of
months, but that one will be a simple accelerometer with datalogger, to
determine velocity and altitude. I don't have much time with all the "irons
in the fire", so I want to keep the next one simple. Then I will try
guidance again in a year (next summer).

I chose IR because of simplicity. The sensor was just a pulsed IR sensor
(the link to the schematic is on that web page), and the rocket is just
swept around to find the peak (over simplification, but that's the idea).
Probably the technically most feasible would be "command guidance", where
the rocket is just radio controlled and you determine rocket position and
target position and generate control signals on the ground. Most difficult
(and interesting hehehe) would be SARH (semi-active radar homing) or even
active radar. Now we are REALLY streching the limits of  the
definition/feasibility of "model" rocket! <G> (Would it have been too
militaristic if I had yelled "FOX TWO!" after launching ? <G>)

Probably the most surefire (if I had lots of time and money) would have
been an imaging sensor(like a CCD) or a position sensitive detector, along
with appropriate signal processing electronics. The problem would then
become distinguishing the target from the background, without having to
modify the CCD greatly (it wouldn't normally be able to handle the high
pulse rate of the current target).

A camera onboard would be a great idea! Hmmm.... :-) Mars isn't a bad idea
either!  Care to loan me a few billion? <G>

Sean

At 03:25 AM 9/13/00 -0400, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2000\09\13@054338 by Jinx

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> Like someone said..you learn from experience

"Experience is something you don't get until just after you need it"

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2000\09\13@073023 by Andrew Kunz

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>Think I should put a link to this on my resume? ;-)

Yes.

You won't believe how many boats I've sold because of the one "crash" video on
my site.  The comment usually goes something like, "Anybody who is honest enough
to put a video of a crash on his site isn't going to be selling me a pile of
poop."

When you come for your interview with me (I'm still trying <G>) I will ask you
about your failures.  Failures are more important than successes because you
learn more from them.

Andy

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2000\09\13@073439 by Andrew Kunz

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Digi-Key has small cameras for under $100.  The give NTSC output, which is very
easy to decode into position data.  Of course at only 60 images/second you will
be hard-pressed for quick manuevering.

Sean, if you want to try one of these, I have one for you.

Andy

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2000\09\13@073854 by Michael Rigby-Jones

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{Quote hidden}

So if I told you I'd failed at everything I'd ever set out to achieve, do I
get the job? <g>

Mike

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2000\09\13@074113 by Andrew Kunz

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You're with Nortel - no wonder you failed. <G>

I'd consider you higher than somebody who "never" failed.

Andy









Michael Rigby-Jones <TakeThisOuTmrjonesKILLspamspamspamNORTELNETWORKS.COM> on 09/13/2000 07:34:54 AM

Please respond to pic microcontroller discussion list <.....PICLISTspamRemoveMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU>








To:      RemoveMEPICLISTspamspamBeGoneMITVMA.MIT.EDU

cc:      (bcc: Andrew Kunz/TDI_NOTES)



Subject: Re: Sean B.








> {Original Message removed}

2000\09\13@075919 by Michael Rigby-Jones

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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Andrew Kunz [SMTP:spamBeGoneakunz@spam@spamspam_OUTTDIPOWER.COM]
> Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2000 12:41 PM
> To:   TakeThisOuTPICLISTspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject:      Re: Sean B.
>
> You're with Nortel - no wonder you failed. <G>
>
> I'd consider you higher than somebody who "never" failed.
>
> Andy
>
>
>
It was only a hypothetical question I hasten to add!  I don't fail at
*everything*.  Although my 16F877 I2C Slave is still giving me big
headaches.  Dragging this back to a PIC related topic, is there any way of
effectively resetting the MSSP?  Occaisionaly (and not very repeatably) my
slave will just stop responding to to it's address, no acknowledge, no
nothing.  The master is a PC at the moment, and I set it up to stress test
the I2C comms, sending stuff continuously on the bus. Sometimes it may last
an hour, sometimes seconds before locking up.

Cheers

Mike

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2000\09\13@081822 by Andy Howard

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> From: "Michael Rigby-Jones" <RemoveMEmrjonesEraseMEspamspam_OUTNORTELNETWORKS.COM>
> > From: Andrew Kunz [SMTP:@spam@akunzRemoveMEspamEraseMETDIPOWER.COM]


> > >Think I should put a link to this on my resume? ;-)
> > Yes.
> > You won't believe how many boats I've sold because of the one "crash"
> > video on
> > my site.  The comment usually goes something like, "Anybody who is
honest
> > enough
> > to put a video of a crash on his site isn't going to be selling me a
pile
> > of
> > poop."
> >
> > When you come for your interview with me (I'm still trying <G>) I will
ask
{Quote hidden}

That gets you recruited to a top management position in a multinational
corporation...


...or politics.

















.

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2000\09\13@092345 by David VanHorn

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The sidewinder seeker head is a pretty interesting design.

The tip is a four quadrant photodiode, looking aft, at a rotating mirror.
The mirror is segmented. So, an IR source is modulated by the mirror
rotation. This also makes it easy to implement digital filtering, since the
rate of the chop is always absolutely known.

There are several (three or four) sections to the mirror, outward from the
center, so that a target off to one side of the view produces a high tone,
and as it gets closer to the center, the tone steps lower.

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2000\09\13@115134 by jamesnewton

face picon face
Sean, I was under the impression that the rocket didn't get anywhere near,
but from the video, it appears that it did attempt to change direction and
head toward the balloons. Is that just the camera angle?


---
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engineer who is not.
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{Original Message removed}

2000\09\13@154821 by Sean Breheny

face picon face
Hi James,

Well, actually, it DID turn toward the balloons, but I think it was a
conincidence(because the IR receiver was not receiving the target signal
before launch). I haven't had a chance to really go over the video frame by
frame yet, but I plan on doing so to determine the rocket velocity
(roughly) and how well the motion corresponded to what the fins were
supposed to be doing. I am not sure if the initial large left turn was
due to instability (too slow coming off the rail), or if it was because
it happened to be launched exactly when the fins were turning that way
(just because they oscillate back and forth for the conical scan motion).
Due to having large forward fins, this rocket is not extremely stable (I
did a static stability analysis and the CP is about 1.5 tube
diameters or so behind the CG)

Sean

On Wed, 13 Sep 2000, James Newton wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> {Original Message removed}

2000\09\13@155224 by Sean Breheny

face picon face
Hi Dave,

Unfortunately, something like this is a bit heavy and complex to put in
400 gram rocket which has to cost less than $1k (preferably much less)!! <G>

It is an ingenious design, though!

Sean


On Wed, 13 Sep 2000, David VanHorn wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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2000\09\13@185110 by Chuck Adams

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At 09:43 PM 9/13/00 +1200, you wrote:
> > Like someone said..you learn from experience
>
>"Experience is something you don't get until just after you need it"
>
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Experience is what you get when you don't get what you want....


Chuck Adams, K7QO   Prescott, AZ

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2000\09\13@201050 by Mark Willis

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Jinx wrote:
> > Like someone said..you learn from experience
> "Experience is something you don't get until just after you need it"
"Experience is what you get when you didn't get what you wanted"

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2000\09\13@205558 by Mark Willis

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"Think creative";  You could use a smaller multi-ringed mirror, with
Piezo power (resonant setup) or a pager motor used to counter-rotate the
mirror ring segments?  (differentially move them to balance out
precession effects.)  These mirrors can be rather light (vacuformed
plastic should do; Hmmm!  How about doing this on a fresnel-like, flat
media basis?  Use any AOL CD-Rom and mill it, then silver it <G>)

The motors would be a 'power hog', but for not very long of a run -
NiCad's would work well, I'd think.  Top off the charge and spin up the
mirrors before launch;  then use a 3V/60R to maintain spin?  (Hmmm,
could we use an escapement mechanism to spin the mirror without a
battery?  The mirror segments would be the counterweights on that
escapement.)

Yeah, the segments wouldn't give as good of a signal if things were
resonant, but it might be lighter than electrical...

My earlier idea I'd mentioned to Sean, was to use a multi-focal mirror
with 2 photodiodes (IIRC), per quadrant (or ?tridrant? to reduce weight
<G>) - One for wide scan, the other for close in.  Photodiodes are cheap
and low-weight, could definitely mix and match these ideas so you have
one tiny ring mirror which both sets of diodes "watch".

Nothing's wrong with using a PIC-based tracking launcher with lots more
IR tracking capability, either, though you might want to seal that just
before launch to prevent damage from the exhaust.  Wind vane on the
launcher (even just a round vertical rod with X,Y strain gauges) could
tell you the wind stats at ground level, too.

 Mark, mad rocketeer at heart <G>

Sean Breheny wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2000\09\14@003755 by Andy Howard

picon face
.


> From: "Mark Willis" <spamBeGonemwillisKILLspamspam@spam@FOXINTERNET.NET>

> "Think creative";  You could use a smaller multi-ringed mirror, with
> Piezo power (resonant setup) or a pager motor used to counter-rotate the
> mirror ring segments?  (differentially move them to balance out
> precession effects.)  These mirrors can be rather light (vacuformed
> plastic should do; Hmmm!

Or aluminised mylar film stretched on a lightweight former e.g. balsa or
heat-formed yoghurt pot.
(Mylar film shrinks convieniently tight with a light application of
hairdryer. It disintegrates with just a teensy bit more hairdryer though).

We used mylar on wooden frames to make large, light, overhead mirrors for
use in clubs and for filming some years ago. It worked extremely well and
weighed two thirds of nothing.













.

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2000\09\14@052217 by mike

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picon face
On  at , Mark Willis wrote:

> Jinx wrote:
> > > Like someone said..you learn from experience
> > "Experience is something you don't get until just after you need it"
> "Experience is what you get when you didn't get what you wanted"
"Experience is what you gain by trying"
--
"Smile" said the Lord, "things could be worse"
so I did, and they were ;-(

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2000\09\14@170702 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
>>Think I should put a link to this on my resume? ;-)

>Yes.

>You won't believe how many boats I've sold because of the one "crash"
>on my site.  The comment usually goes something like, "Anybody who is
>honest enough to put a video of a crash on his site isn't going to be
>selling me a pile of poop."

>When you come for your interview with me (I'm still trying <G>) I will
>ask you about your failures.  Failures are more important than successes
>because you learn more from them.

>Andy

Experience is something you don't get until just after you need it.
               -- Olivier
%
Experience is that marvelous thing that enables you recognize a mistake
when you make it again.
               -- F. P. Jones
%
** Experience is the worst teacher.  It always gives the test first and **
** the instruction afterward.                                           **
  ^ this is SO true -plp
%
Experience is what causes a person to make new mistakes instead of old
ones.
%
Experience is what you get when you were expecting something else.
%
** Experience varies directly with equipment ruined. **
  ^ you are 500 points in the black here, Sean ;-)
%
Expert, n.:
       Someone who comes from out of town and shows slides.

Peter (quoting the fortune cookie program (ROFL) ;-)

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2000\09\14@192536 by Mark Willis

flavicon
face
Sean, you might consider an obvious, cheap fix - put a microswitch
against the launch rail, when said microswitch snaps open ("we've left
the launch rail" signal) delay scan for 100mS or so;  That should help
prevent off-the-rail hard turns.  For extra credit do this contact-less
i.e. have a photodiode inside the rocket, and a strobed LED just outside
the rocket on the launch pad, when the LED goes away delay(150) then
start scanning?

Could put the photodiode on the !MClr circuit - then roll of the rocket
could cause nice spurious resets.  Don't want that <G>

CP 1.5 diameters behind the CG?  That should be plenty stable if the
fins are locked straight...

 Mark

Sean Breheny wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> > {Original Message removed}

'[PICLIST] Sean B. and his mistakes'
2000\09\15@035358 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>Experience is that marvelous thing that enables you recognize a mistake
>when you make it again.
>                -- F. P. Jones

It is all very well to make a mistake - just do not follow it with an encore.

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2000\09\19@122546 by Phillip Vogel

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"Sean H. Breheny" wrote:
> (You can see my partner in crime, Anish, an EE student at
> Columbia Univ. in the left of the video frame. He actually hit the launch
> button)

Well then, it's perfectly obvious that Anish pushed the button wrong. That's
called "delegation of blame", an important part of working in an engineering
department :-)

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2000\09\19@124035 by Andrew Kunz

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And it's VERY important that the delegate to receive the blame is not present.
This is also known as the "Empty Chair Syndrome."

Andy










Phillip Vogel <RemoveMEphillipEraseMEspamKILLspamBARTAL.COM> on 09/19/2000 12:24:43 PM

Please respond to pic microcontroller discussion list <spamBeGonePICLISTspam_OUTspamRemoveMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU>








To:      .....PICLISTspamRemoveMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU

cc:      (bcc: Andrew Kunz/TDI_NOTES)



Subject: Re: Sean B.








"Sean H. Breheny" wrote:
> (You can see my partner in crime, Anish, an EE student at
> Columbia Univ. in the left of the video frame. He actually hit the launch
> button)

Well then, it's perfectly obvious that Anish pushed the button wrong. That's
called "delegation of blame", an important part of working in an engineering
department :-)

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