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PICList Thread
'mac pic develpoment '
1994\01\11@190424 by jory

face picon face
From: Blackbird                                                 Msg#: 13089
 To: Voytovich
 Re: Macintosh versions?
     (Reply to #13026)


There is a very good Macintosh assembler for the PIC called uASM from
Micro Dialects Inc, PO Box 190, Loveland, OH 45140, Ph: 513/271-9100.
It has integrated text editor, assembler, and communications modules.
It assembles code at between 7,500 to  lines per minute, fully supports
macros,
automatic labels, local labels, conditionally assembly, includes to 10
level deep.  The editor supports up to 10 open files at a time, full
search and replace including grep searches,  and file size limited only
by RAM available.  The terminal emulator supports data transfers at up
to 38,400 buad.  We have been using this assembler for over a year now
and have had no problems at all.  MDI is currently working on an upgrade
to support the 16C71, 84, 64, and 17C42.

We also use a programmer from Beradine Products Ltd, PO Box 86757, North
Vancouver, BC CANADA V7L4L3, Ph: 604/988-9853.  Gary Anderson is very
helpful and makes the only RS-232 termial serial port compatible
programmer I know of.  It supports communications up to 38,400 baud,
stand-alone or host operation, and is very inexpensive.  We have also
used this for over a year with no problems.

We use Macintosh for development partly because our application is for
the AppleTalk environment.  However we have found that development in
the Mac environment is much easier and more productive because of the
integration of these products.  The only thing we miss is the capability
to run a simulator or ICE from our Mac.  For those things we must use
our MS-DOS PC.

Good Luck,
Kevin L. Schoen

'other local pic user from bbs '
1994\01\17@174850 by jory

face picon face
Date: Thursday, August 5, 1993  6:08pm                             /APPLICN
From: Kenmun                                                     Msg#: 7755
 To: ** ALL **
 Re: Help for SHAWN                                              (1 reply)

Shawn Dienhart, are you out there?
I could give you some pointers on assembly language programming.  I'm
not an expert, but I could offer some caveats that could help you out.
Call me if you need to  1-413-684-3155  EST.

Or write:
      Kenneth Pergola
              122 Hemlock Hill
              Dalton, MA  01226-1732


KENMUN          P.S.   Hang in there buddy; it gets easier!


'experimental pic list (5/9/94) '
1994\05\09@122329 by jory
face picon face
A few months back, I solicited interest in an email list covering pic
(uchip) microcontrollers. A fair number of people responded positively.

After much slothage, I finally got something set up: spam_OUTpicTakeThisOuTspamfigment.mit.edu

A few things:

1. This list could go away at any time.

2. For the time being, please send list addition/removal requests to the
list iteself. Within the week, there should be a separate address to deal
with administrative issues.

3. It may take a few days to get added-to/removed-from the list. Your
patience is appreciated.

4. Please don't widely publicize the list until the
administration/operational details are finalized later this week.


-jory bell



'8051 vs PIC'
1994\05\16@232025 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
   I recently bought a DS-750 kit for doing development work on the Philips
   87C750 microcontroller. The only thing is, the EPROM version of these
   chips cost about $15 each which seems a bit expensive compared to the
   PIC chips.  Are the 8051 controllers more powerful than the PIC's?

If the $15 prices is for the windowed EPROM version of the chip, then
it is comparable to the PICs (the low priced versions are not windowed.)

THe 8051 familly is at LEAST broader and more widely sourced than the PIC.
You can get 8051 controllers capable of addressing 64k each of program and
data memory (both 8bits wide) with A-D converters and 84 pin packages from
both Intel and Phillips.  Whether the "small" 8051s are as useful as a
small PIC, and whether a broader line makes the 8051 more "powerful" are
pretty meaningless questions that are probably pointless to debate.  I
believe that a PIC has a faster "minimum instruction cycle" than most
8051s - another meaningless metric.


   Also, has anyone some idea as to the cheapest, yet effective way to get
   into PIC development? How much is the PICstart kit these days?

The Picstart kit is $180 from digi-key these days.  I think parallax still
has their cheaper programmer/downloader ($99?)

Without low volume distributers like parallax and digikey, the 8051 series
of "tiny" processors is unlikely to create nearly as much interest as the
PIC has in the last few years...

BillW

1994\05\17@010445 by STEVE454

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face
I recently bought a DS-750 kit for doing development work on the Philips
87C750 microcontroller. The only thing is, the EPROM version of these chips cost about
$15 each which seems a bit expensive compared to the PIC chips. Are the 8051
controllers more powerful than the PIC's?

Also, has anyone some idea as to the cheapest, yet effective way to get into
PIC development? How much is the PICstart kit these days?

Thanks for any advice. .....Steve454KILLspamspam@spam@delphi.com

'Give help to a PIC newcomer!'
1994\05\17@084218 by byron

face picon face
>
> Hi all.
>
> I've been interested in 8051s for ages - but someone recently introduced
> me to the ridiculously cheap DIY PIC16C84 programmers, and Im now a
> total convert...

Most of us are.

>
> Some questions:
>
> The PIC mnemonics, IMHO, are terrible. Is there a 'standard' better
> mnemonic set?

Well parallax has a set of mnemonics that are 8051 based. The two problems
are that you no longer know exactly how long each instruction is and that
you need the parallax assembler.

Personally I find the PIC instruction set very clean and concise. Very good
for compiler writing. A PIC compiler of a language somewhere between C and
BASIC is one of my summer projects.

>
> Are there any example PIC sources available?

Call Microchip or a local rep and ask for the applications notes for the
PIC series. It has dozens of example programs for you to look at. And all
of them are in the original PIC instruction set so you can see how the
set operates.

> Is the serial programming algorithm of the 16C84 the same or similar to
> that of the other two recent PICs (I forget the names - the 33 IO pin
> one, and the one with internal ADC) -

There are two 40 pin chips (17C42 and 16C64). The internal ADC is a 16C71.

> Can I use a similar modified serial programmer to blow these?

The 16C84 and the 16C71 use almost the same serial algorithm.

A good idea is to get the Microchip Microcontroller data book. It has not
only the data sheets for all the parts but the programming algorithms too.
Michchip is just too cool with the way they interact with us hobby
enthusiasts!

Later,

BAJ

1994\05\18@163550 by Peter Knight

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On 17 May 1994, Don Lekei wrote:

> It is always better to get used to the manufacturer's mnemonics as any code
> examples or help you get from others is likely to be in that form. A good
> macro assembler will allow you to generalize your code to make it more
> portable.

I take your point as a general idea, but come on - ADDWF f,d where d is
*direction*!!! Whats wrong with ADD f,W / ADD W,f?

Ive programmed Z80, 6502, 8051, 77C82, ARM2, 68000 - and I have to say
that the PIC has the least user friendly mnemonics of the lot.

Still - Im sure I'll get used to them in time...


Peter
-
Peter Knight      Email: p.j.knightspamKILLspamuk.ac.bradford      Mono: Cathedrow
                                          _  _          _            _
Who says you can't display letters on a 7 |   _| |_ |_  |_| _|  _  _  _|
segment display? OK, so you can't do a W..|_ |_| |_ | | |_ |_| |  |_| _|



1994\05\19@170303 by Don Lekei

picon face
Tom,
Thanks for the question:
> Tell me more about ASPIC ?
I will try to avoid making it sound like an ad <smile>...

ASPIC is a shareware assembler (reg = $100 CDN ($69 US)) which has been in
use since  late 1991 for PIC and since 1986 for other processors (NEC
78c10, Mitsubishi MELPS 8 and 16 bit).  It is **DESIGNED** for embedded
controler design, so it has som unusual features like character set
translation (eg. for LED, LCD, and On Screen Displays), bit labels,
environment labels, etc.

It is very stable (only 3 bugs reported and fixed in the last 2 years), and
it integrates well with other developement tools. A short list of features
reads something like:

       - One assembler for 16c5X, 16c7X, 16c8X, 17c42
       - Compatable with PICSIM (MPSIM)
       - Compatable with MAKE, and with auto-error tracking editors
       - Many times faster than PICALC (MPALC)
       - Standard base notation (Intel & Motorola format)
       - CODE and FUNCTION macros
       - Auto register bank management
       - Text/data translation
       - Automaticly generates RETLW tables for text and data tables
       - Built-in version management and assembly control functions
       - user command-line switches
       - many other features

(hope that didn't sound too much like an ad, but the shareware license has
an unusual clause absolving those who don't register but only use it for
non-commercial purposes)

I can't ftp from compuserve, but it is available around.  Try microchips
bbs (3rdparty file area) or my BBS @(604) 597-3479.

Cheers,

Don


'New PICs: 16C74 and 17C44 '
1994\05\24@115901 by eric

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face
I just received confirmation of my registration for the upcoming PIC seminar,
along with a few brochures.

One of the brochures includes some parts I had not previously heard of, the
PIC16C74 and PIC17C44.

The PIC16C74 is apparently sort of an improved combination of the 16C64 and
16C71.  It is available in 40 and 44 pin packages like the 16C64, and has
even more memory (4K*14 program, 192*8 data).  It has an 8-channel 8-bit A/D
(presumably similar to the 4-channel A/D of the 16C71).

I hope the PICSTART-16C will program the 16C74.  I don't want to buy yet
another programmer.  (By the way, does anyone know whether the PICSTART-16B
will program the 16C58A?)

The PIC17C44 appears to be a 17C42 with more memory.  I've never been
convinced that the 17C42 was a very cost effective part, so I doubt that the
17C44 will be either.

Cheers,
Eric

'Give help to a PIC newcomer! '
1994\05\24@121052 by eric

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face
On 18 May 1994, Peter Knight <.....P.J.KnightKILLspamspam.....bradford.ac.uk> wrote:
> I take your point as a general idea, but come on - ADDWF f,d where d is
> *direction*!!! Whats wrong with ADD f,W / ADD W,f?

I agree with your comments about Microchip's syntax being suboptimal, but
I should point out that the ",d" doesn't specify the direction, it specifies
the destination.  While this may seem like a minor point, consider the
SUBWF instruction:

       SUBWF   FOO,W   ; W := FOO - W

       SUBWF   FOO,F   ; F := FOO - W

While discussing subtract instructions, I should point out that the SUBLW
instruction subtracts the contents of W *FROM* the literal, which is not what
people generally expect.

At first this seemed brain-damaged but then I discovered that it is useful.
If you want to take the two's complement of W, for instance, you can use

       SUBLW   0       ; W := 0 - W

If you want to subtract a literal from W, you can use the ADDLW
instruction with the two's complement of the literal:

       ADDLW   0feh    ; W := W - 2

Some assemblers will let you write this in a natural form:

       ADDLW   -2      ; W := W - 2

Cheers,
Eric

1994\05\24@161102 by Peter Knight

flavicon
face
On Tue, 24 May 1994, Eric Smith wrote:

> On 18 May 1994, Peter Knight <EraseMEP.J.Knightspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTbradford.ac.uk> wrote:
> > I take your point as a general idea, but come on - ADDWF f,d where d is
> > *direction*!!! Whats wrong with ADD f,W / ADD W,f?
>
> I agree with your comments about Microchip's syntax being suboptimal, but
> I should point out that the ",d" doesn't specify the direction, it specifies
> the destination.  While this may seem like a minor point, consider the
> SUBWF instruction:

OK - my mistake - I did mean destination...

Thanks for the hint on SUBLW - I missed that subtle point!

Peter
-
Peter Knight      Email: p.j.knightspamspam_OUTuk.ac.bradford      Mono: Cathedrow
                                          _  _          _            _
Who says you can't display letters on a 7 |   _| |_ |_  |_| _|  _  _  _|
segment display? OK, so you can't do a W..|_ |_| |_ | | |_ |_| |  |_| _|




'neat PIC stuff from Dave Dunfield '
1994\06\13@220452 by eric
flavicon
face
The following is an excerpt from a recent message posted to the DS-750 mailing
list by Dave Dunfield (of Micro-C fame).  I haven't tried it, but is sounds
pretty neat.

Eric
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>From: alfred!tous!stardust!tous!alfred!ucf-cs!BIX.com!@spam@ddunfieldKILLspamspamosceola.cs.ucf.edu
Date: Wed, 01 Jun 1994 09:44:08 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Development Tools
To: KILLspamds-750KILLspamspamstardust.oau.org
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
X-Cosy-To: RemoveMEds-750TakeThisOuTspamstardust.oau.org

...

I have (in a joint venture with another company) just released a new
product which might be of interest. It is called the P57-MUSTANG, and
consists of a PIC 16C57 pre-programmed with a virtual machine
interpreter, and an 8K (byte) serial EEPROM. A socket for a second
8K EEPROM is provided, and EEPROM can be expanded to a total of 64K
by adding chips to the prototyping area. The serial EEPROM can be
used for both CODE and DATA storage, allowing you to permanently record
configuration etc. from within your program.

The board is 3" by 2" and includes a 1" by 2" prototyping area. The
development kit which includes: 1 board, C compiler, Assembler, Library
(with source code), In-circuit Simulator/Emulator (supporting C source
level debugging), and LOTS of other utilities is priced at $150 US

Individual boards are priced at: $59 US

The U.S. Distributor is:

   P&E Microcomputer Systems Inc.
       P.O. Box 2044
   Woburn, MA  01888
   Tel: (617) 353-9206
   Fax: (613) 353-9205

...

Dave Dunfield  (spamBeGoneddunfieldspamBeGonespambix.com)
Dunfield Development Systems

'The unused 40pin socket on the PIC Start programme'
1994\06\15@072115 by IDH

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face
Could 40 pin PIC variants be programmed by PIC Start if a Socket is
placed in the unused 40 pin placement?.

                                   Ian H.
                                   

'The unused 40 pin pickstart socket.'
1994\06\15@073342 by IDH

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face
Can the unused 40 pin pickstart socket be used forprogramming 40 pin
PIC chips?.
                       Ian H.
                       

1994\06\15@074540 by byron

face picon face
>
> Can the unused 40 pin pickstart socket be used forprogramming 40 pin
> PIC chips?.

Don't know. What revision do you have? I have the 16B. No 40pin
socket at all.

Both of the 40 pin offerings can be programmer serially. Maybe it's
possible to create the 5 pin interface necessary to do that on a
daughterboard?

BTW can someone make the MPSTART.EXE software (V3.04) available to me?
I went to the Microchip seminar yesterday and got a PICSTART 16B but
I don't have a 1.44 3.5" floppy at home and of course the software is
on a disk of that format. Bummer. The BBS has the assembler and the simulator
but not the MPSTART software. I can get it ftp or you can mail it to me
in most any format. THe former would be preferable.

Thanks,

BAJ

1994\06\15@080137 by rca

flavicon
face

> TakeThisOuTbyronEraseMEspamspam_OUTcc.gatech.edu (Byron A Jeff)
>
>>BTW can someone make the MPSTART.EXE software (V3.04) available to me?
>
>You can ftp it from ftp.sics.se in the pub/mchipsoft/picstrt16 directory or
similar.
>
>Hope that helps.
>
>Rafe
>

----------------------------------------------------------------
Rafe Aldridge - RemoveMErcaspamTakeThisOuTsirius.tn.rl.ac.uk
R65, Rutherford Appleton Lab,                      wwWWww
Chilton, Oxon, OX11 OQX, UK.                        o  o
------------------------------------------------ooO--(__)--Ooo--


1994\06\15@091502 by IDH

flavicon
face
> >
> > Can the unused 40 pin pickstart socket be used forprogramming 40 pin
> > PIC chips?.
>
> Don't know. What revision do you have? I have the 16B. No 40pin
> socket at all.
>
> Both of the 40 pin offerings can be programmer serially. Maybe it's
> possible to create the 5 pin interface necessary to do that on a
> daughterboard?

My board is marked 04-01315 rev2.  The Firmware chip is marked
Picstart-16B firmware rev 1.4.  The copyright is  1992.  The location
of the 40pin socket is market u8.  Can serial programming be done
using the Picstart Board as the programmer?. (Perhaps this is
refrasing your last question).

                           Ian H.

'40 pin picstart socket.'
1994\06\15@100910 by IDH

flavicon
face

 
 > >
 > > Can the unused 40 pin pickstart socket be used forprogramming 40 pin
 > > PIC chips?.
 >
 > Don't know. What revision do you have? I have the 16B. No 40pin
 > socket at all.
 >
 > Both of the 40 pin offerings can be programmer serially. Maybe it's
 > possible to create the 5 pin interface necessary to do that on a
 > daughterboard?
 
 My board is marked 04-01315 rev2.  The Firmware chip is marked
 Picstart-16B firmware rev 1.4.  The copyright is  1992.  The location
 of the 40pin socket is market u8.  Can serial programming be done
 using the Picstart Board as the programmer?. (Perhaps this is
 refrasing your last question).
 
                             Ian H.



'The unused 40 pin pickstart socket. '
1994\06\15@175723 by eric

flavicon
face
> Can the unused 40 pin pickstart socket be used forprogramming 40 pin
> PIC chips?.

Based on partially tracing the connections, it appears that the extra 40 pin
footprint on the PICSTART-16B was intended for use in programming the 17C42.
The firmware on the board probably doesn't support it, and the MPSTART program
on the PC certainly doesn't.  They probably planned to sell a board with the
40 pin socket as a PICSTART-17, but they haven't done so (yet).

The 40 pin pads would not work at all for programming the 16C64 and 16C74.
You might be able to wire an adapter to program these parts, and tell the
software that you're programming a 16C71.  You would only be able to use the
first 1K words of program though.

The PICSTART-16B1 doesn't have the extra 40 pin pads at all.

The PICSTART-16C will program the 16C64 and 16C74, and is rumored to program
the forthcoming 28-pin 16C63 and 16C73 as well.

By the way, the latest firmware for the PICSTART-16B and PICSTART-16B1 is
version 1.7.  If you use the 16C84 I would strongly recommend upgrading, and
if you use the 16C58A you _must_ upgrade.  The upgrade should be available
free from your Microchip representative.

Eric

'Beta Pic Disassembler'
1994\06\29@085450 by -robotics-research-centre.salford.ac.uk (Ian King)n/a

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face
Dear Beta testers

Here is the the first release of my pic dissassembler.
If you can't handle uudecodeing, uncompressing and untaring then
mail me and I will see what I can do.

Thanks

=%-)

Ian

P.S. The code is in unix standard ascii so DOS users will have to add
    ^M's to the end of all the lines (use the unix2dos command if you
    have it).




Attachment converted: sheep!:picdis.tar.Z (????/----) (00001410)

'Is it real or is it PicBuster?'
1994\06\29@231333 by SMARTSIGNAL

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face
Can anyone point me at a description of the PicBuster contraption
which I've been reading about on the MicroChip BBS?  I have read about
this gizmo - and remain unable to tell what it is or how it does
its putatively nasty task of dumping eprom in secured pic 54 series
parts.  Has there been any discussion of the picbuster here?
 
It is a very nice name though, given its function.  - JGN


'Networking the PIC and/or the BASIC STAMP...'
1994\07\06@005243 by Bob Armstrong
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face

 Has anyone networked several PICs (or STAMPs) together ?
Did you use RS-485 ?  How about simply wiring toegether several
open-drain outputs on different PICs ?  Are there any examples
of software for networking ?

Thanks,
Bob Armstrong
bobEraseMEspam.....poco-adagio.santa-clara.ca.us

'Networking PICs'
1994\07\06@080248 by bdavidso

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face
 Bob Armstrong   (EraseMEbobspampoco-adagio.santa-clara.ca.us) wrote:
>
>    Has anyone networked several PICs (or STAMPs) together ?
>  Did you use RS-485 ?  How about simply wiring toegether several
>  open-drain outputs on different PICs ?  Are there any examples
>  of software for networking ?
>

Not yet, but I will be doing something pretty similar in the next couple
months.  I've seen a neat wire-OR scheme for RS-485 where you use cheaper
RS-422 drivers ( a little, I think) and hook data input up to the driver
enable pin.  Essentially allows wire-or with simpler protocols.

I'll post anything interesting that comes up.
/s/ Bill


'Networking the PIC and/or the BASIC STAMP...'
1994\07\06@102756 by mbmoore

flavicon
face
Yes, we (Custom Hardware Engineering) have been networking the PIC for
home-automation products using our "RS232-BUS".  It's simple, easy to use,
and an open protocol.  We simply connect multiple PICs together on an RS232
line.  Their is a transmit and a recieve line (just like RS232).  The
transmit line connects to one of the data lines of multiple PICs through a
large resistor (1meg).  So, there isn't much drain on this line.  The
receive line is tied to -12V through a 2.2K resistor somewhere on the bus
and is tied to an opto-isolator which can pull the line to +12V by a normally
off pin on each PIC.  When the communication is only between a "host"
(normally a PC), and the other devices on the bus, the data protocol is
simply two bytes of address data followed by two bytes of command/data.  The
devices then return their address followed by two bytes of response data
(if needed).  It is possible for devices to speak to one another on the bus
but in this case, it is required that the device respond in some manner, so
the sender knows that a collision has not occured.  

For more specifics, feel free to write me back.  Also, a quicky - we are
offering a line of home-automation products that work over our RS232-BUS
protocol.  At present, we have a temperature sensor and a thermostat based
on the PIC and this protocol but we will have much more in the coming months.
We are also looking at offering kits if anyone is interested.  To get on our
mailing list, just respond to this note asking to be placed on it and I'll
add you.   We won't send out lots of mail - just notify you of new products
and any information you may want/need concerning out RS232-BUS devices.


*****************************************************************************
*  Paul Greenwood  ->  ->  ->  ->  ->  ->  ->  Custom Hardware Engineering  *
*---------------------------------------------------------------------------*
*  "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from MAGIC."  *
*                                 - Arthur C. Clarke                        *
*****************************************************************************

'Networking the PIC and/or the BASIC STAMP... '
1994\07\06@122105 by Edward Cheung

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>From: Mark <RemoveMEmbmooreEraseMEspamEraseMEbga.com>
>and an open protocol.  We simply connect multiple PICs together on an RS232
>line.  Their is a transmit and a recieve line (just like RS232).  The

This sounds a little like RS485.  I am curious why you decided not to
take this route as this would make you more compatible with other products
(including the line of home automation modules from Circuit Cellar).

YOurs, Ed

+---------------------------------------+-----------------------------------+
|          Edward Cheung, Ph.D.         |  The opinions expressed herein    |
|Satellite Servicing Robotics Laboratory|    do not necessarily reflect     |
|    NASA Goddard Space Flight Center   |       those of my employers'      |
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'added protection 4 pics '
1994\07\11@120601 by mycal

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face


Depending on how the pic programmer works, couldn't you just bust off
a data pin on the PIC?  As long as you didn't need it in your product
this could add another layer of protection.

mycal


'AT-Keyboard on PIC?'
1994\07\13@182436 by ben

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face
Hi,

Has anybody interfaced an AT-style keyboard to a PIC16C54 yet? I need  
something that gives a (preferably bi-directional) translation between an  
I^2 bus and a PC keyboard.

Thanks,
Ben

'Magnetic Card readers & PIC's'
1994\07\15@103926 by ttkk

flavicon
face
       I'm trying to design a keyless entry system using a magnetic card
reader. Has anyone out there done this using any of the PIC's? If so
which one and which card reader? Also what problems might I encounter
along the way.

                       Thanx for any help,

                                               TK

1994\07\15@133238 by mbmoore

flavicon
face
>       I'm trying to design a keyless entry system using a magnetic card
> reader. Has anyone out there done this using any of the PIC's? If so
> which one and which card reader? Also what problems might I encounter
> along the way.

If your card-reader is RS232, it won't be a problem because there is lots of
RS232 code around.  Since it looks like you're still trying to pic (pun
definately intended) one out, then look for RS232 type readers.  I have NOT
done this but it sounds pretty straight-forward.  One thing that I CAN think
of is - where are you going to store the card numbers?  You could hard-code
them into the PIC and re-program (use a UV erasable) them when needed.  Or,
you could have an external memory chip to keep the data in.  Or, you could
have all of them transmit back to a host computer.  If you are interested
in the latter, we might be able to put something together for you to do
RS232 from the reader, and then have the info. transmitted back to the host
over an RS232-BUS.  Write us back if you're interested and we'll talk about
the details.


*****************************************************************************
*  Paul Greenwood  ->  ->  ->  ->  ->  ->  ->  Custom Hardware Engineering  *
*---------------------------------------------------------------------------*
*  "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from MAGIC."  *
*                                 - Arthur C. Clarke                        *
*****************************************************************************

'CROSS COMPILER FOR PICS'
1994\07\19@145545 by JKELLY

flavicon
face
 I NEED YOUR EXPERTISE!  
I HAVE A PARALLAX CROSS COMPILED LISTING FOR A I BELIVE IS SOURCE FOR THE 8051
CONTROLLER. WHAT I NEED IS SOMTHING THAT WILL ETHIER LET ME COMPILE IN THE 8051 OR SOME WAY OF PRODUCING A LISTING OF 8051 CODES SO I CAN FIGURE OUT WHAT ALL
THE CODE IS DOING.
IM DO NOT HAVE ANY EXPERIANCE WITH THE 8051 AND DONT KNOW THE SYNTAX. TO SUM  
IT UP A CROSS COMPILER TO COMPILE 8051 TO PIC CODE OR ANY IDEAS YOU GUYS MIGHT
HAVE.
THANKS FOR ANY SUGGESTIONS YOU CAN SEND.
JAMES.
CCK  



'More pic list.'
1994\07\26@084848 by Derrick Early

flavicon
picon face
Hi Jory,

Is it normal for me to receive so many returned messages?
Here is some more.  

  ----- Transcript of session follows -----
451 <RemoveMEmrandeTakeThisOuTspamspamelaine.ee.und.ac.za>... reply: read error
451 <EraseMEmrandespamspamspamBeGoneelaine.ee.und.ac.za>... reply: read error
550 <RemoveMEmichael.blylerKILLspamspamgtri.gatech.ed>... Host unknown
421 jegnixa.hsc.missouri.edu.tcp... Deferred: Host is unreachable
550 <wcnSTOPspamspamspam_OUTwcnux.cca.rockwell.com.cca.rockwell.com>... Host unknown
>>> QUIT
<<< 421 Too many SMTP sessions for this host
451 <spamBeGonejohnrSTOPspamspamEraseMEsydney.dialix.oz.au>... reply: read error
451 <KILLspamjohnrspamBeGonespamsydney.dialix.oz.au>... reply: read error
421 igate1.hac.com.tcp... Deferred: Connection timed out during user open with igate1.hac.com

  ----- Unsent message follows -----
  ----- Transcript of session follows -----

While connected to hpuerci.atl.hp.com [15.17.184.24] (tcp):
>>> RCPT To:<robot4u!EraseMEjgutmannspamEraseMEhpuerci.atl.hp.com>
<<< 554 <robot4u!@spam@jgutmann@spam@spamspam_OUThpuerci.atl.hp.com>... unable to route to UUCP host name robot4u
554 <robot4u!spamBeGonejgutmannspamKILLspamhpuerci.atl.hp.com>... Service unavailable


  ----- Unsent message follows -----
 
Yours,

Derrick

'unused data lines on pic16c5x '
1994\07\27@120650 by mycal

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face


Hi,

I've done a project where I use only one data line on a pic16c54, it
is RA0 and it is set to output.  All other pins are set to input (default),
as I set port_a by :
       movlw 0eh
       tris  port_A

and don't init port_b.  Ok everything is fine here.  I am generating
a repeating pattern out of RA0, but the output is very dirty.  Then I
tied RA1 to +5 through a 5k resistor and all my problems went away,
RA0's output cleaned up.

In the book it says for lowest current consumption in sleep mode all I/O
pins should be at VDD or VSS.  I don't use sleep mode, but should I tie
all my unused pins to VDD or VSS?  Do I need the resistor if I tie them
to VDD?  Any other thoughts on what to do with unused pins?

Thanx,

mycal



1994\07\27@173253 by dpalmer

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face
Are you sure that you are not trying to source to much out of the output
pin?  I sometimes only use the lower 2 pins on port A, because I try
to make port A always RS232 pins, and I have no problems at all.  
Try to put a pull-up resistor on the output pin and see if it works.
Check to make sure you are not trying to pulse the lines too fast, once
I tried to generate a 2 mhz clock from an output pin until I very
carefully figured out the capacitance in my 22 awg hook-up wire that was
7 inches long. :)

Darryl Palmer

1994\07\28@000401 by dthomas

flavicon
face
That's easy.  Make all unused pins outputs.  Then you can let them
float.  Leaving inputs floating is definitely "considered harmful".
;^)

David


'best place to buy pics? '
1994\08\01@140646 by mycal
flavicon
face


I am looking to buy about 40-60 PIC16c54-HS/P-ND (digi key #).  Is there
a better (read more inexpensive) place to buy these than digikey?

They are $6.56/pc at this quantity.

also If I want to program a PIC16C84 with my PICSTART-16B what revision
of firmware do I need.

thanx,

mycal


'Buying PICs in bulk '
1994\08\01@145133 by Mark Forbes

flavicon
face

I think that standard electronics distribution channels would be
good for this sort of thing. I don't know if they can get down
much below $6.56, but I know I paid about $1.80 for 54LP/Ps back
about 1992. Of course, I bought 11K of them.......

Call your local Microchip distributor. If you'd include your
physical location, it'd be easier for us to point you in the
right direction.

.....forbesmspam_OUTspamcsos.orst.edu
Mark G. Forbes

'Newest PICSTART-16B Firmware'
1994\08\09@223421 by dpalmer

flavicon
face
After reading a message concerning someone having a firmware release of 1.7,
I wanted to know if anyone has a newer version of the firmware or can tell
me if there are any advantages over version 1.5 (which I have).

Darryl Palmer

'Reading fuses from file & problems w PIC locking u'
1994\08\18@161759 by crocontroller discussion list

flavicon
face
Something I came across today - mpstart will read fuses and ID
locations from withon a .obj file, so there's no need to keep
setting the fuses each time you load it up. The only problem is
that to get mpalc to place data at $2000-2007 you need to use
org beyond its defined limits so you get a fatal error for each
word of data when assembling.
Perhaps ASPIC copes with this OK?

I've also descovered a problem when using 16C84s that once in a while
they lock up and only a powerdown will start them off again. The reset
pin doesn't do anything. It occurs primarily if I use my in-circuit programmer
after the chip has already been running. After the programming cycle is
complete, the device is presented with a reset pulse but just sits there.
If the device is programmed straight after power-up, the reset pulse
after programming starts it and it runs the program.
Any ideas?  All I can think of is that it's latchup on the MCLR pin
but I've tried driving it through a resistor, and non of the voltages
are outside the supply rails (except the 12V for programming).

Any ideas?
Thanks,
Simon
--
******************************************************************************
* Simon Harrison,  University of Newcastle U. Tyne    *                      *
* TakeThisOuTS.J.Harrison.....spamTakeThisOuTuk.ac.newcastle                        *   Oook               *
* Fax: 091-222-8180, Attn: S.Harrison                 *        - Librarian   *
* Telex (Preferred): 53654 UNINEW G, mark 1st line:   *                      *
* "TO:  S.J.HARRISON (DEPT. OF ELEC. ENG.)"           *                      *
******************************************************************************

1994\08\18@174037 by crocontroller discussion list

flavicon
face
> Something I came across today - mpstart will read fuses and ID
> locations from withon a .obj file, so there's no need to keep
> setting the fuses each time you load it up. The only problem is
> that to get mpalc to place data at $2000-2007 you need to use
> org beyond its defined limits so you get a fatal error for each
> word of data when assembling.
> Perhaps ASPIC copes with this OK?

Of course ASPIC supports this. The file DEMO.ZIP available on my BBS
(604-597-3479), Microchip's BBS and a few ftp sites shows how. Here is an
excerpt:

(From PICMACRO.ZIP)

...
      .switch PICDEVICE

       .case   1654
       .cpu    16c54
_RESVEC =       $01FF                   ;16c54
IDLOC = _RESVEC+1
FUSELOC = $FFF
       DEFSEG  REGS,  $00, $20         ;initial regs
       DEFSEG  CODE, $000,_RESVEC      ;Base code segment
       DEFSEG  RESET,_RESVEC,_RESVEC+1 ;Reset Vector
       DEFSEG ID,IDLOC,IDLOC+4        ;ID word segment
       DEFSEG FUSES,FUSELOC,FUSELOC+1  ;Config fuses

       .else

       .case   1655
       .cpu    16c55
_RESVEC =       $01FF                   ;16c55
IDLOC = _RESVEC+1
FUSELOC = $FFF
       DEFSEG  REGS,   $00, $20        ;initial regs
...
<code ommitted>


       .switch PICDEVICE
       .case 1654
       .case 1655
       .case 1656
       .case 1657
_CP     = %00001000             ;Code protect (0 = PROTECT)
_WDTE   = %00000100             ;WDT 0 = disable
_LPOSC  = 0                     ;LP Osc select
_XTOSC  = 1                     ;XT Osc select
_HSOSC  = 2                     ;HS Osc select
_RCOSC  = 3                     ;RC Osc select

       .else
       .case 1671
       .case 1684
_CP     = %00010000             ;Code protect (0 = PROTECT)
_PWRTE  = %00001000             ;Power up timer enable 0=disable
_WDTE   = %00000100             ;WDT 0 = disable
_LPOSC  = 0                     ;LP Osc select
_XTOSC  = 1                     ;XT Osc select
_HSOSC  = 2                     ;HS Osc select
_RCOSC  = 3                     ;RC Osc select
       .else
       .case 1742
_FPMM1  = %00010000             ;Extended Microcontroller (0 = CODE
PROTECT)
_FPMM2  = %01000000             ;Microcontroller mode (0 = CODE PROTECT)
_FPMM3  = %01010000             ;Microprocessor mode (0 = CODE PROTECT)
_FWDT1  = %00001100             ;WDT prescaler = 1  (0=disabled)
_FWDT64 = %00000100             ;WDT prescaler = 1
_FWDT256 = %00001000            ;WDT prescaler = 256
_LFOSC  = 0                     ;LP Osc select
_RCOSC  = 1                     ;RC Osc select
_XTOSC  = 2                     ;XT Osc select
_ECOSC  = 3                     ;EC Osc select (external clock)
       .endif

...
(From PLD.ASM  (the initial file))
;**********************************************************************
;*
;* Define PIC options and ID
;*
;**********************************************************************
       .if !clop_d             ;simulator won't tolerate fuses!

       SEG FUSES               ;Config fuse area

       .word _XTOSC|_CP|_PWRTE ;Mode: xt osc, no code protext, timer
enabled

       .if isdef( IDLOC )      ;if there is an ID area (ie. not 17C42)
        SEG ID
        .word  _year&$0f,_month,_day,_hour      ;set id number to compile
time
       .endif
       .endif
----------------------------
Note that the above code also generates a default id code as the compile
time
in BCD.

- Don Lekei

1994\08\18@174657 by crocontroller discussion list

flavicon
face
Sorry. Didn't mean to cast doubts about your program.... It's just I don't
use a PC for most of my work so don't really know anything about ASPIC.
I don't suppose you'd do an Atari version...
Simon
--
******************************************************************************
* Simon Harrison,  University of Newcastle U. Tyne    *                      *
* TakeThisOuTS.J.HarrisonKILLspamspamspamuk.ac.newcastle                        *   Oook               *
* Fax: 091-222-8180, Attn: S.Harrison                 *        - Librarian   *
* Telex (Preferred): 53654 UNINEW G, mark 1st line:   *                      *
* "TO:  S.J.HARRISON (DEPT. OF ELEC. ENG.)"           *                      *
******************************************************************************

'data sheets of PICs via ftp available?'
1994\08\19@104441 by crocontroller discussion list

flavicon
face
hello PICcers all over the world,

does anyone know, if the data-sheets of PICs are available via ftp?
are they in ascii-format / word-format / postscript?

or has anyone good contact to microchip to get the files and post them an a
ftp-server?

thanks,
Siggi
.....grobspamRemoveMErz_nwfs2.rz.uni-ulm.de

'Topic 0.1 released -- a free PIC assembler with so'
1994\08\25@072523 by crocontroller discussion list

flavicon
face
You can get topic-0.1.zip from ftp.funet.fi in the directory
/pub/microprocs/pic/topic. (If your filing system doesn't support
multiple dots in the filename, enter a command like "get topic-0.1.zip
topic01.zip" to store it with a different local filename).

Below I've included the short README file.

Enjoy!

-- vinsci

README:

This README file describes Topic release 0.1, an assembler for the PIC
microcontroller series.  The PIC is manufactured by Microchip Technlogy
Inc.

This assembler is published under the GNU General Public License in
the hope that others will use and benefit from this program as well as
contribute their own improvements and extensions for all of us to
share.

What it doesn't do (yet):

While I believe Topic does things the right way, it currently lacks
features that will hopefully be available in later versions.  Such as
pseudo instructions (easily added), macros (the code to insert macros
already exist and works), optional ",0" or ",1" as a second argument
(easiliy added), real expressions and operators (this is the biggest
drawback in this first release), conditional assembly (we need to see
if GASP, the Gnu ASsembler Preprocessor, suits our needs) etc.

What it does:

It does support symbols (any length symbol name), file inclusion, good
warning and error message capability (some of the messages in this
release are on the lighter side -- see the source in case you don't
understand a message).  It also supports a variety of ways to write
constants.  It writes a simple symbol table, reporting which symbols
were really used and which were not.  It writes an object file in the
same format as Microchip's MPALC assembler if the assembly was
successful, or none if not.  Topic doesn't crash your machine when it
doesn't see what it expected (unlike MPALC).

This software is pretty much experimental so far (it's less than a
week old, what do you expect?), but it is cleanly written.  There are
even a few comments.

Currently, it only supports the 12 bit variants of the PIC, but I've
designed the assembler so that it is very easy to extend it to the 14
bit core as well and make the choice while the assembler is running
(ie. using an assembler directive).  Some constants in the source now
make the assembler believe the memory size is 2048 instruction words
as for the PIC 16C57, which I work with, hmmm ;-), but all this is
very easily changed.

OK, how do I improve it and recompile it?

First get a standard C compiler.  I used the GNU C compiler GCC which
is available for free on the net and is a very good compiler and has
everything you need.
 For MSDOS systems, get the variant of GCC called DJGPP:

       File location:
           host:      omnigate.clarkson.edu
           login:     ftp
           password:  send your e-mail address
           directory: ~ftp/pub/msdos/djgpp

If you have a make utility, just CD into the Topic subdirectory and
type MAKE.  To compile by hand, give the command "gcc -o topic
topic.c".  Easy!  (If you're using DJGPP, you can now run the file
topic, which is still in unix format, with the command "go32 topic
source.asm" to assemble source.asm and produce source.obj.  You can
also create a normal executable with DJGPP, after that the command
would be "topic source.asm", as on a unix system.)
 Spots that could use some improvement are marked by the word fixme.

Are you improving the assembler?

Any improvements and/or bug fixes that are clean and well thought out
are welcome by e-mail at the address below.  Please use the DIFF
command "diff -c2 topic.c newtopic.c >diffs" to produce the diffs
file, and e-mail me that along with a description of the diff in
question.  Make separate diffs for changes/improvements that aren't
related and send them in separate e-mails.  All changes should follow
the GNU coding standards to reasonable extent to maintain readability.

Enjoy!  E-Mail: RemoveMEvinscispamspamBeGonenic.funet.fi
       Mail:   Leonard Norrgard
               Skolhusgatan 32 A 14
               FIN-65100 VASA
       Phone:  +358-49-434808

-- vinsci

1994\08\25@074828 by crocontroller discussion list

flavicon
face
>
> You can get topic-0.1.zip from ftp.funet.fi in the directory
> /pub/microprocs/pic/topic. (If your filing system doesn't support
> multiple dots in the filename, enter a command like "get topic-0.1.zip
> topic01.zip" to store it with a different local filename).
>
> Below I've included the short README file.
>
> Enjoy!
>
> -- vinsci
>
Good!  I'm glad to see someone starting this!  I'm presently using the gnu
c compiler, and I'm pleased to see some software development for the pic's
following the same route.

What about a simulator?  It sure would be nice to have some control over
what a simulator can do.

Yours,

Derrick Early, the rookie

1994\08\25@080944 by crocontroller discussion list

flavicon
face
Damn, beaten by a couple of days... ;-)

I have also just finished an assembler for pics, just the
documentation and a bit more testing left to do before its released.
Compared to topic is has:

pros: macros, real expressions, conditional assembly, local variables
and labels, 12 and 14bit pics, a simple disassembler.

cons: own object file format (with conversion tools to and from
intel hex.) C format numbers (i.e. 0xff etc), and error handling
is "simplistic" and finally no clever name (topic, aspic) thought
up yet ;-)

I will try to get the docs done this weekend and put it up for ftp
next week.  It has been built under linux and gcc, but should work under
any unix or even dos (using djgpp).

=%-)

Ian

p.s. votes for next tool being taken, simulator or picstart code downloader.
p.p.s. does anyone know the format of the picstart download protocol or
e-mail address for someone at microchip who might know.

1994\08\26@082307 by crocontroller discussion list

flavicon
face
> Damn, beaten by a couple of days... ;-)
> I have also just finished an assembler for pics, just the
> documentation and a bit more testing left to do before its released.

Heh ;-) I skipped the docs part altogether, which probably saved a
couple of days...

> Compared to topic is has:
>
> pros: macros, real expressions, conditional assembly, local variables
> and labels, 12 and 14bit pics, a simple disassembler.

Sounds great!

> cons: own object file format (with conversion tools to and from
> intel hex.)

This is not necessarily a con; running those conversion tools
is anyway easiliy automated as needed.

> C format numbers (i.e. 0xff etc), and error handling
> is "simplistic" and finally no clever name (topic, aspic) thought
> up yet ;-)

Well, it seems a bit hotter than Topic, so maybe Tropic would be nice? ;-)

> Ian
>
> p.s. votes for next tool being taken, simulator or picstart code downloader.
> p.p.s. does anyone know the format of the picstart download protocol or
> e-mail address for someone at microchip who might know.

A picstart code downloader should be pretty easy and very desirable to
get out of the MSDOG/Windows dependance (I just hate to have to boot
my PC ten times a day whenever the system crashes; not that booting
takes such a long time but it interrupts my flow of thoughts).

For the simulator which I'm sure we'll build sooner or later, I've
been thinking of using the combination of C and Tcl/Tk (see
comp.lang.tcl).  Tcl is a rather nice library that would give the
simulator great scripting capabilities, while Tk is a GUI toolkit for
Tcl with the look and feel of Motif.  Tcl/Tk interfaces very well with
C allowing the simulator to be written partly in Tcl (faster to
edit/test/fix) and partly in C (faster final code); thus one can start
most of it off in Tcl and then code the timecritical parts in C
routines as needed.  Tk provides some nice features that are ideal for
a CPU simulator, or any program that needs to update screen data as
variables change.
 Tcl/Tk come with an X11 or BSD type public license and are available
under both Unix/X11 (Linux, for example) and MSDOS/Windows (for those
unfortunate of you ;-), so the simulator could be used by a large
number of people.

-- vinsci

'Better BASIC STAMP for Pic . (the size)'
1994\08\29@084637 by crocontroller discussion list

flavicon
face
Hi everybody,

I am looking either for the internal software of the interpreter
pic chip of the BASIC STAMP, or better for an upgraded version (>1.4)
that would accept more than 256 bytes of code (many more please...)
Please answer me about the availability of a new basic with PIC chips.
Yours faithfuly,

.............---
.......__.../...\
......|..|_/.....\
..____|..........*\
.|......Strasbourg/
..\............../
...\............|
....\.(France)..|
..../............\
....|......__.....|
....|...../..\___/
....|.....|
....\_____|

~A
Herve GALMICHE
ALCATEL BUSINESS SYSTEMS
CC 696
1 rte du Docteur Albert Schweitzer
F- 67408 ILLKIRCH Cedex FRANCE
Phone +33 88677700 ask for 78004
e-mail spamBeGonegalmiche@spam@spamspam_OUTsxb.bsf.alcatel.fr

Yours Faithfully,
H.GALMICHE

'Dallas RTC (also: some comarison of 6811 and pic)'
1994\08\29@110911 by crocontroller discussion list

flavicon
face
>> Dallas Semiconductor has a small-order desk that will take 1-10 piece
>> orders charged to credit cards.  Call +1-214-450-0448.  I've only used
>> them once, but found them very friendly.
>
>The number I've used is 800-336-6933 which is very convenient for the US
>folks.  The direct number is still needed internationally.   I've used this
>number a couple of times and found them very responsive and prompt.  Dallas
>is to be commended for providing this level of service to the "little
>guys."

[mount soapbox]

Dallas Semiconductor commentary:

Just to put in my two cents: I usually advise against using most any Dallas
semiconductor compenent (YMMV). In particuar, I had bad experiences with
their digital pot, their power manager chip, and ther real time clock (a
bunch of which I have languishing/sitting around in SMT if anyone's
desperate to buy).

[as an aside: when i first started dealing with DS, i too thought they were
a cool, small company, willing to proving service to the "little guy." but
this initial impression was eventually overcome by technical problems we
had with their parts, seemingly haphazard design of their software
protocols (look at the register arrangement for their clock cips) all of
which was compounded by unhelpful customer "support."]

In our last oceanographic instrument, we went through a prototyping run
using several DS components. We we also using a 6811. By the time we went
into our first generation, we had abandoned all the Dallas chips (still had
te 6811). Instead, we were using custom power management, and a Harris ICM
7170 RTC. The Harris part worked quite well. In particular (as I recall off
the top of my head), the Dallas parts would sometimes start, sometimes not
depending on the minute vagaries of the reset condition. It also took more
power and was less accurate than the Harris part. The communication
protocol for the Dallas part was particularly arcane, and just plain
annoying. Oh yeah, the Dallas part would only let you set these incremental
alarms (1 week max interval) while the Harris part let you set an alarm at
any set point. The Harris part was also a bit cheaper than the DS part, but
that could vary. Read throuhg the two data sheets carefully (and look for
oter alternatives as well, of course).

A little PIC vs 6811 commentry:

By our second (and present) generation of the ocean sampler hardware (which
must keep time for up to a year in a harsh environment), we had new
electronics based on the 16c84 in which we got to bag all of the power
management stuff (the pic takes so little power!) as well as the RTC (it
was easier to just do the clock stuff on the pic - and we didn't need to
sleep all the time due to power restraints). We went from over 150
components, to less than 2 dozen with a huge simplification in programming
(no need to interact wth the real time clock chip, or del with power-saving
through powe downs, etc).

[dismount soapbox]

-jory

1994\08\29@120212 by crocontroller discussion list

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face
Jory,

Thank you for the soapbox commentary.  Now I can free up some space on my
bookshelf.

Do you or any others have any suggestions for a source of crystal oscillators
for 20 MHz?  I need it to operate from -40 to 105 C.

Yours,

Derrick Early

1994\08\29@133121 by crocontroller discussion list

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face
You may want to try Digi-Key (1-800-344-4439).  That temperature range will
be pushing the specs.  So, you probably will need to go to some of the
crystal manufactures, such as CTS, Epson of AMerica or ECS.  Sounds
like a military temperature range??
By the way the official operating specs for the pic chip is 0 to 70 C.

Mike

1994\08\29@154045 by crocontroller discussion list

flavicon
face
I read your story about Dallas Semiconductors.  It's something that I'll
file away for future reference.  I've had very brief interactions with
them and haven't actually used any of their parts in a project, so far
they've been pretty nice to me.  I look at their chips more closely
before I use them anywhere...

But I was curious about the ocean sampler hardware that you described in
your post.  Just out of curiousity, what is the functionality of this
device?

Thanks,
Rudy Moore

1994\08\30@123908 by crocontroller discussion list

flavicon
face
Sorry to hear about your bad experiences with Dallas.  I have not dealt
with them for some time, but several years ago I used many of their clock
chips and non-volatile memory controllers.  I was always completely
satisfied with their performance and their tech support.  They were a
fairly new company at the time - maybe they put extra effort into tech
support -now they're a bigger, established company maybe they have slacked
off in that department.

* Douglas Martin * Design Engr/Elec. Technician * TakeThisOuTdmartinspamspambgsuvax.bgsu.edu *
*         BGSU Department of Chemistry - Bowling Green, Ohio - USA         *
* 'Ticking away the moments that make up a dull day . . .'   -  Pink Floyd *
*****                                                                  *****


On Sun, 28 Aug 1994, jory bell wrote:

{Quote hidden}

'Parallax or Picstart?'
1994\08\30@204457 by crocontroller discussion list

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Thanks to everyone who has responded so far to my request for
opinions as to which PIC programmer to buy.  I haven't bought one
yet, but it looks like it's come down to either the PICSTART from
Microchip, or the Parallax programmer, mainly due to cost.

I thought I had settled on the Parallax one, but I found out that there's a
Microchip seminar coming to town (Vancouver), and that I can get the
"PICSTART development system" for $79US there. The seminar costs $99US, so
that puts my total cost at about the same as the Parallax programmer.  They
tell me that the seminar is very informative (5.5 hrs), and that you get
books and _product_samples_ with the PICSTART package.  That part sounds
good to me, but, as I am a beginner, I think the seminar may be way over my
head...

I haven't heard from anyone who has used the PICSTART.  Can someone
please give be a brief comparison of the PICSTART and the Parallax
programmers?

Thanks,


Richard Friesen                         Little Timmy took a drink,
(Richard_FriesenEraseMEspammindlink.bc.ca)         But now he'll drink no more,
                                        For what he thought was H2O
                                        Was H2SO4
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----


--


 Richard Friesen                        Little Timmy took a drink,
(RemoveMERichard_FriesenEraseMEspamspam_OUTmindlink.bc.ca)        But now he'll drink no more,
                                        For what he thought was H2O
                                        Was H2SO4
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--

1994\08\30@205739 by crocontroller discussion list

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I use the PICSTART all the time and think it is fine. It doesn't "remember"
the fuse settings so you will program them incorrectly sometimes if you don't
remember to "reset" them. The tools are fine, the documentation is adequate
but poorly formatted on the disk. Once you get past that they are fine. And
since the PICSTART uses the serial port rather than the parallel port it works
on more systems (like my IBM ThinkPad laptop which parallax has said they
won't make it work on, even though it is an *IBM* PC (ISA bus even), and
that is pretty stupid on my part. (ed note, yes I think the Parallax folks
are wankers but that isn't why I don't reccomend their stuff)).

--Chuck

1994\08\30@210154 by crocontroller discussion list

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face
Richard Friesen prophesized:
> I haven't heard from anyone who has used the PICSTART.  Can someone
> please give be a brief comparison of the PICSTART and the Parallax
> programmers?

Well, (lucky for me), I didn't have to buy two programmers to find one
that did what I needed.  So, I can't compare the two for you.  I have
been happy with Parallax' product.

The one HUGE selling point, in my book, are the Parallax mnemonics
which are very "8051-like".  Actually they're even better than 8051
mnemonics because there are things like "CJE" to complement "CJNE"
(unlike the 8051).  I have yet to learn the cryptic MicroChip
mneumonics which is kind of bad for me when I want to read sample code
from an app note or something.  Made code development a lot quicker,
though.

You should be able to get about the same effect with any decent macro
assembler and your own time.  Maybe the PICSTART package has a macro
assembler (?).


--
Greg Bell        | "Counting SUCKS!"
@spam@gregRemoveMEspamEraseMEcqt.com     |          -Beavis
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
CommQuest Technologies, Inc.     (619) 633-1618 x133

1994\08\30@223602 by crocontroller discussion list

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> I thought I had settled on the Parallax one, but I found out that there's a
> Microchip seminar coming to town (Vancouver), and that I can get the
> "PICSTART development system" for $79US there. The seminar costs $99US, so
> that puts my total cost at about the same as the Parallax programmer.  They
> tell me that the seminar is very informative (5.5 hrs), and that you get
> books and _product_samples_ with the PICSTART package.  That part sounds
> good to me, but, as I am a beginner, I think the seminar may be way over my
> head...

I attended the PIC seminar in Chicago and thought it was pretty
worthwhile.  Actually, it is pretty much targeted toward people who
know little or nothing about PICs.  So, if that's what you mean by "beginner"
I wouldnt' let that worry you.  It probably would be helpful to have some
experience with other microcontrollers (such as the 8051), but if you have
a whole ot of PIC experience, you would probably find the seminar a little
slow.

I can't say too much about the PICSTART since I haven't used it for any
real projects yet.  I did put it together and verify that it works.

Peter Fales                       AT&T, Room 9C-242
N9IYJ                             2000 N. Naperville Rd.
UUCP:   ...att!intgp1!psfales     Naperville, IL 60566
Internet: EraseMEpeter.falesspam@spam@att.com     work: (708) 979-8031

'data sheets of PICs via ftp available?'
1994\08\31@052729 by alex

flavicon
picon face
Please see my earlier, somewhat mis-directed email to this list.
Rgds
--
Alex R. Baker                 Phone: +44 628 851077  Car: +44 831 494921
Field Applications Engineer   Fax:   +44 628 850259  Email: @spam@alexspam_OUTspam.....microchp.demon
Arizona Microchip Technology                                              .co.uk

'Parallax or Picstart?'
1994\08\31@063339 by crocontroller discussion list

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> I thought I had settled on the Parallax one, but I found out that there's
a
> Microchip seminar coming to town (Vancouver), and that I can get the
> "PICSTART development system" for $79US there. The seminar costs $99US,
so
> that puts my total cost at about the same as the Parallax programmer.
They
> tell me that the seminar is very informative (5.5 hrs), and that you get
> books and _product_samples_ with the PICSTART package.  That part sounds
> good to me, but, as I am a beginner, I think the seminar may be way over
my
> head...

Richard,

I have a PICSTART programmer here and it works ok, and it accepts standard
Intel-hex format files so it will work with all true PIC assemblers
(including, of course ASPIC).  I don't use it primarily due to it's lack of
command line automation, but I believe it can program fuses from the INTEL
HEX file, it's just that MPALC and MPASM won't let you.

DEMO.ZIP  gives an example of programming the fuses for any PIC from the
hex file (including seting the device ID to the compile date and time).
DEMO.ZIP is the complete source code (writtten in ASPIC) to my pocket logic
analyzer that was a winning entry in the Picstart design contest last year.
You can pick it up from my BBS (which should be local for you) at (604)
597-3479 if you want (schematics and block diagrams are available only to
registered ASPIC users though).

The Parallax programmer seems to require that you use their special
assembler which does not compile real PIC code, but rather some sort of
80xx style pseudo-code cross compiler code which is really difficult to
read if you can actually program a PIC.

BOTH Picstart and the Parallax programmers use non-standard interface
protocols and
user-interferance screens (which is why in real life, I actually use the
Microburner from Baradine in North Van.).

I attended the Microchip seminar last time it was in Vancouver and it
really geared towards beginners to the PIC, but I still found it
interesting. The audience ranged from people who wanted to find out what a
PIC is, to people like myself who have written tens of thousands of lines
of PIC code.

- Don
This is not a TRUE internet message since the body is probably longer than
the message header.

1994\08\31@070738 by crocontroller discussion list

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face
Richard,

I'm glad you put your question about programmers on the table.
As a result, I hope to build a programmer based on the
16c84 programmer that was located at bode.ee.ualberta.ca .
I know it will be a bit of work to make it program a 16c64,
but I think that it will be worthwhile.

Good luck with your decision, and please let us know what
you think of the seminar.

Yours,

Derrick Early

1994\08\31@092117 by crocontroller discussion list

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face
Hi,

Derrick Early wrote:

> As a result, I hope to build a programmer based on the
> 16c84 programmer that was located at bode.ee.ualberta.ca .

Just a few words of caution about this programmer:

* I developed this project using a 20MHz 386DX machine and have
subsequently found it to be unreliable when used with my 33MHz 486DX.
Obviously a timing problem.  I will try to fix this when I get some
spare time.  It would be useful if anybody that has successfully got
the programmer to work could let me know what type of PC they used.

* Please note that the executable packaged with the programmer info
was built for hardware using a 7406.  If you use a 7407 you must
recompile.  The Qbasic source is also intended for hardware using a
7406.  If you want to use the Qbasic program with 7407 based hardware
then use these definitions

CONST DataInv = 0
CONST VppOn = 8, VppOff = 0, VddOn = 4, VddOff = 0
CONST ClkHi = 2, ClkLo = 0, OutHi = 1, OutLo = 0

Note, due to a typo, the program erroneously suggests that you
should use ClkHi = 4.  Sorry about that.

* If you don't use LS buffers you should substitute a 7805 for the
78L05.

On a happier note, I have designed a PCB for the programmer which
should make life easier for intending constructors (it was while
testing my PCB that I found the timing problem).  The details will be
packaged with the next release of the software (i.e the one that
corrects the timing bug).  I can't promise when that will be ready
though.

It doesn't seem to be as widely known as it should be that there is
information on another 16C84 programmer available on the net.  This
one was designed by Henk Schaer and is (at least was when I last
looked) available as

ftp://sunshine.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de:/pub/private/danny/picprog.zip

I haven't tried it but it might work better than mine :-)

Hope this information will be useful to some of you - sorry for the
junk if not.

--David

P.S. These programmers were both released as copyrighted freeware.
Nobody makes money from them.

1994\08\31@190557 by crocontroller discussion list

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face
  I thought I had settled on the Parallax one, but I found out that there's a
  Microchip seminar coming to town [...]

The seminar is excellent and I'll admit that if you consider the two
programmers equal, you get better value buying the picstart,
especially at the seminar.  Here in Albuquerque it was an even better
deal -- the PICSTART was US$99, and the seminar was free!

I have the parallax, and I tend to prefer it.  Here are some opinions.
Others may differ.

In Favor Of Parallax:

1. I like the parallax pseudo "8051-like" instruction set.  Parallax's
assembler will work with native instructions as well, so you're not
stuck.

2. Their examples are simple and easy to follow, software is well
documented and easy to use, you're up and running in no time.  Book is
excellent.

3. Programmer remembers fuse settings.

4. Can assemble native code from Microchip's assembler.  Microchip's
assembler doesn't grok the Parallax pseudo instructions, though it's
probably possible with macros.

In Favor Of PICSTART:

1. Both the assembler and the simulator are more sophisticated.
Harder to get used to but definitely more capable once you get going.

2. Assembler can accept more file formats, if you care.

3. Has a ZIF socket.  Parallax uses LIF which is not as nice.

4. Comes with product samples to play with, worth $$$.

Other Info:

1. Parallax uses parallel PC port, PICSTART uses serial.  You could
probably use PICSTART from Linux with the DOS emulator, but you can't
do that with the parallax since the DOS emulator doesn't support the
parallel port.

Well that's all that comes to mind right now.  Generally I'd say if
you're a beginner you'll want the Parallax cuz it's got the easiest
learning curve.  If you're an advanced Microchip hacker, you may want
the better simulator and assembler in the PICSTART.  I'd say if you're
that hardcore, get both kits.  They're cheep!

David

1994\08\31@191842 by crocontroller discussion list

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face
Hi PICers,

David said,

>
> 1. Parallax uses parallel PC port, PICSTART uses serial.  You could
> probably use PICSTART from Linux with the DOS emulator, but you can't
> do that with the parallax since the DOS emulator doesn't support the
> parallel port.

I know this list is not for Linux discussions, but I must disagree here.
The parallel port works fine under DOSEMU. Add the following line to your
/etc/dosemu.conf

ports {range 0x378 0x37b} #For LPT1

--Jason

'Parallax or Picstart? (also, uASM note)'
1994\08\31@230011 by eric

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face
> Additionally, the PicStart's serial connection is completely
> nonstandard/proprietary, with pretty low-level UART stuff. Would this still
> work with LINUX (even emulating DOS)? It definitely doesn't work with the
> MAC.

I've been looking at the PICStart communications with an HP 4952A protocol
analyzer.  They use receive data, transmit data, and one handshake line in
each direction.  The handshake lines are toggled after every command or data
byte.

I haven't completely worked out the details yet, but I think the Macintosh
could actually talk to it.  A special cable might be needed.

Cheers,
Eric

'Dallas RTC (also: some comarison of 6811 and pic)'
1994\08\31@231340 by -Kellogg High School

flavicon
face
Reply to: spamBeGoneBDAVIDSOEraseMEspamnox.cs.du.edu

Hi.

Enjoyed your post on Dallas Semi.  On reflection, I agree with all you
said.  But Dallas is there, and ... ...

I was particularly interested in your references to ocean monitoring
products.  I "touched" some neat stuff briefly in San Diego during my
Navy years (early 80s) and have been curious what was going on
commercially.  What I saw was essentially a wave buoy (free float or
tethered) that computed wave information and squirted it to a satellite
every day or so.

Back in those days it took a 1 meter buoy with a "waist band" full of
lithium batteries to run for around a year.... Better now, I bet?

If you have the patience, drop me a note about the current state of the
industry.   Thanks ... /s/ Bill




'Parallax or Picstart? (also, uASM note)'
1994\09\01@010100 by crocontroller discussion list
flavicon
face
>Hi PICers,
>
>David said,
>
>>
>> 1. Parallax uses parallel PC port, PICSTART uses serial.  You could
>> probably use PICSTART from Linux with the DOS emulator, but you can't
>> do that with the parallax since the DOS emulator doesn't support the
>> parallel port.
>
>I know this list is not for Linux discussions, but I must disagree here.
>The parallel port works fine under DOSEMU. Add the following line to your
>/etc/dosemu.conf


Additionally, the PicStart's serial connection is completely
nonstandard/proprietary, with pretty low-level UART stuff. Would this still
work with LINUX (even emulating DOS)? It definitely doesn't work with the
MAC.

Again, I'll take this time to second Don Lekei's recommendation of the
Beradine MicroBurner 512 (see FAQ for more info). It is a little pricey
(maybe $350), but well worth it. I have both this and a PICSTART (which I
used before I found the microburner), and I don't even take the PICSTART
out of the box anymore. It uses a standard RS-232 serial connection, and
you can get new modules to let it program new/different chipsets (although
they are also admittedly a bit pricey at somewhat over $100 each). It also
uses a serial programming routine (WRT THE PIC), so I always have 5 wire
connectors on my oceanographic instrumnts, and I can update the frmware
with a simple 5-wire cable from the Microburner to the instrument's circuit
board (ie: in situ programming, whic I believe the Parallax TruFlight will
also do, but the PICSTART will not). Also, since you can download programs
from the host computer, to the microburner (which can run off the included
AC adapter or a 12V battery) you can program the new firmware into the
buner, and take it (no host computer) to the instrument and update the
firmware.

I have no cnoonction to the MicroBurner, except as a normal customer.

-jory

PS: Has anyone gotten a version the uASM (for the MAC, from MicroDialects)
that will work with the 16c84? Any work on any new MAC-based development
tools (I'd especially like a good c84 supporting simulator) I am really
trying to get away from SOFTPC! (and I don't have a UNIX or PC/LINUX box,
so those emerging avenues/alternatives don't help.  :)

Gratuitous Background Info:I thought I had bought a c84/c71 uASM version,
but hadn't gotten around to using it for a long time. When I recently tried
assembling some c84 code with it, I found it wouldn't recognize page1
memory access, etc. I didn't see anywhere I could select the PIC version,
so I guessed I had the wrong version. I called MicroDialects, but could not
get a hold of anyone who could answer my questions. Several weeks ago, I
finally returned the original disk, with a polite letter asking for the
correct version (I have not heard back yet). Anyone else have ay particular
experiences with them?

1994\09\01@020540 by crocontroller discussion list

flavicon
face
> Additionally, the PicStart's serial connection is completely
> nonstandard/proprietary, with pretty low-level UART stuff. Would this still
> work with LINUX (even emulating DOS)? It definitely doesn't work with the
> MAC.

I've been looking at the PICStart communications with an HP 4952A protocol
analyzer.  They use receive data, transmit data, and one handshake line in
each direction.  The handshake lines are toggled after every command or data
byte.

I haven't completely worked out the details yet, but I think the Macintosh
could actually talk to it.  A special cable might be needed.

Cheers,
Eric

1994\09\01@101122 by crocontroller discussion list

flavicon
face
> on more systems (like my IBM ThinkPad laptop which parallax has said they
> won't make it work on, even though it is an *IBM* PC (ISA bus even), and
> that is pretty stupid on my part. (ed note, yes I think the Parallax folks
> are wankers but that isn't why I don't reccomend their stuff)).
>
> --Chuck

Interesting! Neither does the Parallax programmer work on HP Omnibook.
Parallax told me essentially "We don't care". I'm a bit surprised that
Parallax writes their software so machine dependent that it can't be
run on these machines. Using the parallel port in a portable way isn't
really hard.

-- Martin

Martin Nilsson
Swedish Institute of Computer Science    E-mail: mnspamBeGonespamsics.se
Box 1263, S-164 28 Kista                 Fax: +46-8-751-7230
Sweden                                   Tel: +46-8-752-1574

'ANOTHER PROGRAMMER (Was Re: Parallax or Picstart?)'
1994\09\01@215433 by -Kellogg High School

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I have the PGM16 from Advanced Transdata Corporation.  Having never seen
a picstart or paralax programmer, it might be an OEM or clone of one of
them, but in my sample of 2 parallel ports to connect it to (clone
DX-2/66 and Zeos sub-notebook) it runs great.

I regularly travel with the Zeos & programmer.  Very convenient.  Their
real time ICE also runs well on the Contenda - I can't imagine tucking my
desktop system in the back seat of the plane to take my development
system on the road.  AS it is, an old briefcase serves as a complete real
time ICE / programmer capable system.

If anyone knows if this PGM16 critter is a clone of one of the other
programmers please let me know.

/s/ Bill

'RS232 reciever using a PIC.'
1994\09\04@074441 by crocontroller discussion list

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face
Hello all,

Has anyone used a PIC (preferably a PIC16C84 as I can't program anything else!)
as a RS232 reciever/decoder?

control an LCD display remotely over a
two wire (data + ground) RS232 line. The PIC would simply (?) be acting as
an intelligent serial to parallel convertor. I may also add a third wire and
some switches by the LCD so that I could send data back to the host as well.

If anyone has any ideas / sample code (especially for the '84) then I'd
be most grateful.

Many thanks in advance,

Rafe

1994\09\04@074441 by crocontroller discussion list

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face
Hello all,

Has anyone used a PIC (preferably a PIC16C84 as I can't program anything else!)
as a RS232 reciever/decoder?

control an LCD display remotely over a
two wire (data + ground) RS232 line. The PIC would simply (?) be acting as
an intelligent serial to parallel convertor. I may also add a third wire and
some switches by the LCD so that I could send data back to the host as well.

If anyone has any ideas / sample code (especially for the '84) then I'd
be most grateful.

Many thanks in advance,

Rafe

1994\09\04@121555 by crocontroller discussion list

flavicon
face
If you have a copy of the Microchip Embedded Control Handbook, check out
the application note on page 3-121, "Software Implementation of
Asynchronous Serial I/O (AN555)".  This code is for a 16C84 using
an interrupt driven routine for RS-232 communication.  I've started typing
in the code for a project of my own.  If you like, I'll send it to you.
There are two disclaimers however, 1) It probably will not be debugged.
2) I'll need to figure out how to get it from my computer to my internet
host and then to you.

By the way, this routine sends the receive of the RS-232 to the RA4/RTCC
line of the PIC.  Therefore if the RTCC is set up as a counter loaded
with FF it will generate an overflow interrupt when the PIC receives a
start pulse.  The RTCC can be reconfigured as a timer after the start
pulse is received and generates interrupts based on the baud rate.

1994\09\04@121555 by crocontroller discussion list

flavicon
face
If you have a copy of the Microchip Embedded Control Handbook, check out
the application note on page 3-121, "Software Implementation of
Asynchronous Serial I/O (AN555)".  This code is for a 16C84 using
an interrupt driven routine for RS-232 communication.  I've started typing
in the code for a project of my own.  If you like, I'll send it to you.
There are two disclaimers however, 1) It probably will not be debugged.
2) I'll need to figure out how to get it from my computer to my internet
host and then to you.

By the way, this routine sends the receive of the RS-232 to the RA4/RTCC
line of the PIC.  Therefore if the RTCC is set up as a counter loaded
with FF it will generate an overflow interrupt when the PIC receives a
start pulse.  The RTCC can be reconfigured as a timer after the start
pulse is received and generates interrupts based on the baud rate.

1994\09\04@134710 by crocontroller discussion list

flavicon
face
>
> If you have a copy of the Microchip Embedded Control Handbook, check out
> the application note on page 3-121, "Software Implementation of
> Asynchronous Serial I/O (AN555)".  This code is for a 16C84 using
> an interrupt driven routine for RS-232 communication.  I've started typing
> in the code for a project of my own.  If you like, I'll send it to you.


I think you don't have to type ... Check the FTP sites that they mirror
the Microchip BBS . The source code must be there ready to upload ...

Have a nice day...


--
     ____________________________      __________________________________
    /                           /\    /                                 /\
   /   Argiris A. Kranidiotis _/ /\  /       E-mail (Internet):       _/ /\
  /  University Of Athens    / \/   /                                / \/
 / Informatics Department    /\    /  RemoveMEakra@spam@spamspamBeGonezeus.di.uoa.ariadne-t.gr  /\
/___________________________/ /   /_________________________________/ /
\___________________________\/    \_________________________________\/
 \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \     \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \

1994\09\04@134710 by crocontroller discussion list

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face
>
> If you have a copy of the Microchip Embedded Control Handbook, check out
> the application note on page 3-121, "Software Implementation of
> Asynchronous Serial I/O (AN555)".  This code is for a 16C84 using
> an interrupt driven routine for RS-232 communication.  I've started typing
> in the code for a project of my own.  If you like, I'll send it to you.


I think you don't have to type ... Check the FTP sites that they mirror
the Microchip BBS . The source code must be there ready to upload ...

Have a nice day...


--
     ____________________________      __________________________________
    /                           /\    /                                 /\
   /   Argiris A. Kranidiotis _/ /\  /       E-mail (Internet):       _/ /\
  /  University Of Athens    / \/   /                                / \/
 / Informatics Department    /\    /  .....akra@spam@spamEraseMEzeus.di.uoa.ariadne-t.gr  /\
/___________________________/ /   /_________________________________/ /
\___________________________\/    \_________________________________\/
 \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \     \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \

'DIY 16C84 programmer (was Re: Parallax or Picstart'
1994\09\06@061232 by crocontroller discussion list

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Hi,

I tried to mail this last week but it doesn't seem to have made it
onto the list.

Derrick Early mentioned he was hoping to build a 16C84 programmer.
You can ftp the info about this programmer from:

ftp://ftp.ee.ualberta.ca:/pub/cookbook/comp/ibm/pic84pgm.zip

Although many people have let me know that they have got the
programmer to work it is worth giving a few words of caution if you
are thinking of building it:

* I developed this project using a 20MHz 386DX machine and have
 subsequently found the C version to be unreliable when used with my
 33MHz 486DX.  Obviously a timing problem and I will try to fix this
 when I get some spare time.  The Qbasic version still worked though,
 and the C version worked with turbo mode switched off.

* Please note that the executable packaged with the programmer info
 was built for hardware using a 7406.  If you use a 7407 you must
 uncomment "#define U7407" and recompile.  The Qbasic source is also
 intended for hardware using a 7406.  To use the Qbasic program with
 7407 based hardware then include these definitions:

 CONST DataInv = 0
 CONST VppOn = 8, VppOff = 0, VddOn = 4, VddOff = 0
 CONST ClkHi = 2, ClkLo = 0, OutHi = 1, OutLo = 0

 (Due to a typo, the program erroneously suggests that you
 should use ClkHi = 4.  Sorry about that.)

* If you don't use LS buffers you should substitute a 7805 for the
 78L05.

I recently designed a PCB for the programmer which should make life
easier for intending constructors (it was while testing my PCB that I
found the timing problem).  The details will be packaged with the next
release of the software (i.e the one that corrects the timing bug).  I
can't promise when that will be ready though.

It doesn't seem to be as widely known as it should be that there is
information on another 16C84 programmer available on the net.  This
one was designed by Henk Schaer and is (at least was when I last
looked) available as

ftp://sunshine.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de:/pub/private/danny/picprog.zip

I haven't tried it myself, but it comes with menu driven software which
you may find preferable to the command line approach I used.

Hope this information will be useful to some of you - sorry for the
junk if not.

Cheers,

David

P.S. The programmers mentioned above were both released as copyrighted
freeware.  Nobody makes money from them.

1994\09\06@082401 by crocontroller discussion list

flavicon
face
>
> Hi,
>
> I tried to mail this last week but it doesn't seem to have made it
> onto the list.
>
> Derrick Early mentioned he was hoping to build a 16C84 programmer.
> You can ftp the info about this programmer from:
>
> ftp://ftp.ee.ualberta.ca:/pub/cookbook/comp/ibm/pic84pgm.zip
>

David,

I received your message last week just fine.  I looked at the picprog.zip
files, and it also looks like a good setup for a programmer.  My only
problem with it is that it doesn't appear to include the source for the
software.  I guess that someone could just send email to the author, and
you may be able to get a copy.

Thank you again for the information.

Yours,

Derrick Early

1994\09\06@174409 by crocontroller discussion list

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On Sep 6, 11:13, David Tait wrote:
[stuff deleted]
>
> * I developed this project using a 20MHz 386DX machine and have
>   subsequently found the C version to be unreliable when used with my
>   33MHz 486DX.  Obviously a timing problem and I will try to fix this
>   when I get some spare time.  The Qbasic version still worked though,
>   and the C version worked with turbo mode switched off.

I've had this kind of problem before with other cctry connected to PC
parallel ports. One way to fix it is to edit the CMOS configuration of
the PC and slow down the 8-bit I/O access by adding a few wait states.
Maybe this can work in this case too.

-- Charles

1994\09\07@215702 by crocontroller discussion list

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On Wed, 7 Sep 1994, Charles Manning wrote:

> On Sep 6, 11:13, David Tait wrote:
> [stuff deleted]
> >
> > * I developed this project using a 20MHz 386DX machine and have
> >   subsequently found the C version to be unreliable when used with my
> >   33MHz 486DX.  Obviously a timing problem and I will try to fix this
> >   when I get some spare time.  The Qbasic version still worked though,
> >   and the C version worked with turbo mode switched off.
>
> I've had this kind of problem before with other cctry connected to PC
> parallel ports. One way to fix it is to edit the CMOS configuration of
> the PC and slow down the 8-bit I/O access by adding a few wait states.
> Maybe this can work in this case too.

In many cases the chips of the parallel card are too slow to alllow the
high speed switching of a fast card.  For instance, you might have a bt
set low, you then pulse the bit high, then a 486 clock cycle or two later
return it to low.  All fine in theory, but the card hasn't had time to
switch to the high state before it was instructed to return low.

Yeah, putting in wait delays will work.  Another one you could try is
feed the output of one or two of the bits back into parallel port. That
way, you could read when the card has made the switch.


Oh, by the way, I'm new to the PIC group.  Can anyone tell me something
about the PIC?  What it can do, features, nice stuff, etc?  Thanks.


Catcha,

Regards,

  Michael Kunstelj.

'Need PIC Object Code (Electronics Now Wand)'
1994\09\19@144010 by crocontroller discussion list

flavicon
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Don Lekei prophesized:
> I have
> been toying with some Parallax-to-ASPIC macros, but I have little
> confidence in them yet as I do not know the actual  code generated by the
> Parallax "Instructions".

The Parallax User's manual shows the native instructions generated for
each Parallax mnemonic.  I could also assemble the assembler test file
(ie. all mneumonics) and send you the hex version.


'Re pic user hello'
1994\10\05@110329 by crocontroller discussion list
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James:

  Sounds like  you are already off to a very good start. I like your
choice of a thermistor instead of a thermocouple or RTD, for your
application the thermistor's sensitivity should make for a very tight
control loop indeed, and you can't go wrong with your choice of
microcontroller either.

If you don't have Microchip's Data Book and their Embedded Control
Handbook, get them (602-899-9210). They are packed full of info and source
code examples.

In the Embedded Control Handbook you will find all of the code that you
need to get you started. Using pieces from different examples you can cover
everthing from Serial Input (both synchronous and asychronous) Application
Note 510,547 to P.I.D. control schemes AN 531.

I am not familar with that Analog Devices chip Ad7714 but it sounds real
interesting I am assuming since the chip gives you a serial output that
signal conditioning, bridge excitation and A to D is handled on the chip.
Is this correct? The Parallax book has both their instruction set and
Microchips. So translation is easy. Also Parallax instruction set has some
very useful routines
for example their Compare instructions.

I do not know if the Parallax assembler can take Microchip instructions,
but either way you should have no problems. Make frequent use of Parallax's
software simulator PSIM this is a very good troubleshooting tool. If you
are going to do a lot of micro projects I highly recommend the Parallax
Emulator available from DIGI-KEY.

I can only guess at your knowledge of micro's and their related quirks but
from your message and your choices so far you should have very little
problems. Just dive right in and in no time you will find out that micro's
are the greatest thing since sliced bread.

                               Joe West
Joseph D. West
Electronics Lab. Supervisor
College of Mechanical Eng.
Ohio State University

(614) 292-2845
Fax (614) 292-3163

1994\10\05@133251 by crocontroller discussion list

flavicon
face
>
> James:
>
>    Sounds like  you are already off to a very good start. I like your
> choice of a thermistor instead of a thermocouple or RTD, for your
> application the thermistor's sensitivity should make for a very tight
> control loop indeed, and you can't go wrong with your choice of
> microcontroller either.
>
>  If you don't have Microchip's Data Book and their Embedded Control
> Handbook, get them (602-899-9210). They are packed full of info and source
> code examples.
>
> In the Embedded Control Handbook you will find all of the code that you
> need to get you started. Using pieces from different examples you can cover
> everthing from Serial Input (both synchronous and asychronous) Application
> Note 510,547 to P.I.D. control schemes AN 531.
>

 Great!  I have both books you mention, but haven't gotten into either
 one of them yet.  I'm busy building ovens and oven control circuitry.
 But the next thing is to speak to the Analog Devices part with a serial
 interface GPIO card using HP BASIC.  Once we figure out how the part
 works, then we can get into PIC control loops.  Besides, it will take
 me that long to figure out how microcontrollers and assembly language
 work.  I looked up AN 531 and it looks like exactly what I need to
 understand PID controllers in assembly language.

> I am not familar with that Analog Devices chip Ad7714 but it sounds real
> interesting I am assuming since the chip gives you a serial output that
> signal conditioning, bridge excitation and A to D is handled on the chip.
> Is this correct? The Parallax book has both their instruction set and
> Microchips. So translation is easy. Also Parallax instruction set has some
> very useful routines
> for example their Compare instructions.


 The bridge excitation (reference voltage) is provided externally, but the
 signal conditioning (sigma-delta modulator style) is done by the AD7714
 with a serial output.


{Quote hidden}

 They certainly seem to be great little systems, so I'm anxious to get
 started with them.  Sounds like fun and a means of learning something too!
 Thanks very much for the head start on this, Joe.  I'll let you know how
 it goes.

 Jim Johnson
 .....jjohnsonRemoveMEspamhpl.hp.com

'Availability of 16C74, 16C64, upgrade for picstart'
1994\10\10@063601 by Alex

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picon face
In article: <.....9409221636.aa21291STOPspamspam@spam@post.demon.co.uk> DVORAKVEraseMEspam@spam@csearn.bitnet writes:
>
> Please,
>         our distributor ELBATEX for Czech Republic has nothing from 16C64
> or 16C74 in Wiena store. Are this chips available in sample quantities?

Both the 16C64 and 16C74 are becoming more freely available in sample
qtys now. Elbatex will have been allocated some, but I am not aware of their
priority
list for sample distribution

>         I have Picstart Version 16C1. Is there a SW upgrade for the new
> chips 16C74, 16C73 etc.

I'm not sure if this may be a typing error on your part - if what you
have is a Picstart-16B1, there is no upgrade available to support the
16C74/73, you will need to purchase the Picstart-16C, which is just
becoming available. Obviously if what you have is a Picstart-16C the
software supplied with it should inherently support the 16C74/73

Alex R. Baker - Field Apps Engineer Ph: +44 628 851077  Car: +44 831 494921
Arizona Microchip Technology        Fx: +44 628 850259  Email:
RemoveMEalexspamspamBeGonemicrochp.demon.co.uk
ANY VIEWS EXPRESSED HERE ARE MINE AND DO NOT NECESSARILY REPRESENT THOSE OF MY
EMPLOYER

'What is the PIC61? and 73?'
1994\10\10@170440 by Alex

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picon face
In article: <spamBeGone9410022354.aa09087KILLspamspam@spam@post.demon.co.uk> johnsonjspam_OUTspam@spam@utdallas.edu writes:
>
> I have seen some talk about these two chips? i know they are in proto now
> but what features do they have?

16C61 = 16C71 with no ADC (or a 16C56 with interrupts if you prefer to
       look at it that way)
16C73 = 16C74 in a 28 pin package - misses off the parallel slave port.

Full d/s available from a disti near you for the 16C61, and also a
flyer for the 16C73 from the same source.

Best regards

Alex R. Baker - Field Apps Engineer Ph: +44 628 851077  Car: +44 831 494921
Arizona Microchip Technology        Fx: +44 628 850259  Email: spamBeGonealex@spam@spammicrochp.dem
on.co.uk
ANY VIEWS EXPRESSED HERE ARE MINE AND DO NOT NECESSARILY REPRESENT THOSE OF MY E
MPLOYER

'how to post to the pic list'
1994\10\29@031937 by crocontroller discussion list

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face
charles writes:

>Jory,
>
>May I suggest that somebody (you?? or some automated mechanism) post a
>how-to-post type article.
>
>While I read what flies past, I never seem to be able to find the how-to-post
>info when I need it.


in case this detail is keeping people from jumping into the fray:

there are basically two ways to post to the pic list:

1. you can send email addressed to RemoveMEpicEraseMEspamKILLspammitvma.mit.edu

2. you can "reply" with your mailer software to a message which was sent to
thepic list.

note that if you simply reply to a message someone sent to the pic list,
your response will go to the list, and not to the individual who sent the
message.
in order to send to the original poster, you must manually supply their
email address (which is notes in their original mail to the list).

also note that adding or deliting yourself from the list is done by sending
email to spamBeGonelistservspam_OUTspamRemoveMEmitvma.mit.edu, not to the list address itself.

hope this helps,

jory


'What is the PIC61? and 73?'
1994\11\01@203948 by crocontroller discussion list
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There are several new PICs on the way.  The '63 and '73 were listed in some
marketing literature given out at the seminar earlier this year.  The '61 and
'65 are mentioned in various files included with the PICSTART-16C.  I asked a
Microchip employee about them, and he was very surprised to find out that the
PICSTART referred to these parts; he said they weren't supposed to be talking
about them yet.

PIC16C61: a 16C71 without the A/D converter (lower cost)

PIC16C63: a 16C64 in a 28-pin package

PIC16C65: a 16C74 without the A/D converter (lower cost)

PIC16C73: a 16C74 in a 28-pin package

Some of the marketing literature from the seminar also described a 17C44,
which is a 17C42 with more memory.

Last year I didn't think the 17C4x was very cost effective, since the prices
were comparable to the 68HC11, although admittedly the 17C42 runs faster.
Since Motorola is unable to keep up with demand and 68HC11 prices have gone
up considerably, the 17C42 is looking very attractive.

The Mitsubishi 377xx family also is good for high performance low power
embedded applications, but I can't actually recommend Mitsubishi because they
are very hard to deal with and tend to screw small companies royally.

Eric

1994\11\02@103937 by crocontroller discussion list

flavicon
face
I'll second Eric's comments on Mitsubishi (being hard to deal with).
When I was considering design ideas for a widget we eventually built
11,000 of, I called Mitsubishi to ask about a 'perfect for the task'
4-bit CPU that they had. I had a terrible time getting through, only
to find that they wouldn't even *talk* to me unless I could promise
an initial production run of 100,000+ pieces. Paid up front. (!)

Microchip sent me free samples and an apps engineer. Easy, huh?

.....forbesmspamRemoveMEcsos.orst.edu
Mark G. Forbes

'(Fwd) Re: PIC16C54 RC vs. XT'
1994\11\02@173341 by crocontroller discussion list

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face
Tried to post this earlier, but it didn't get through, I don't think:

Has anyone thought of using the WDT?  Just check the flag bits at the
beginning of your program, and you can tell if you're starting from
scratch (better init everything) or just waking up from the WDT.

You can set the WDT prescaler to the interval you want, then do your
loop stuff, and go to sleep.  The WDT will wake you up.  You just have
to structure your program to branch to the loop entry from the
beginning if it's a WDT entry...

That is, if you're not already planning to use the WDT for the obvious...

Someone give me a sanity check on this...  I may use it in an upcoming
project.

Regards,

- JohnR

--
John R. Haggis                         outside mail, please respond to:
IBM Almaden Research Center            haggisspam@spam@netcom.com
927-2474  /  ZZHAGGIS AT ALMADEN


--------- Forwarded Message Follows ---------

  "My plan is to assign the prescaler to the RTCC and spin waiting for
   it to equal zero."

That works; my usual technique is to set the RTCC to a negative number
and bit-test the MSB.  Remember to account for the delay between
initializing the RTCC and when it begins to increment.

                               Paul Milazzo <EraseMEmilazzoRemoveMEspamSTOPspambbn.com>
                               BBN Systems and Technologies
                               Cambridge, MA

1994\11\02@192922 by crocontroller discussion list

flavicon
face
>
> Has anyone thought of using the WDT?  Just check the flag bits at the
> beginning of your program, and you can tell if you're starting from
> scratch (better init everything) or just waking up from the WDT.
>
> You can set the WDT prescaler to the interval you want, then do your
> loop stuff, and go to sleep.  The WDT will wake you up.  You just have
> to structure your program to branch to the loop entry from the
> beginning if it's a WDT entry...
>
> That is, if you're not already planning to use the WDT for the obvious...
>
> Someone give me a sanity check on this...  I may use it in an upcoming
> project.
>
> Regards,
>
> - JohnR
>

The only problem I see here is that the WDT is a free running on-chip
RC oscillator. To quote the DataBook for the PIC16C71:

       The WDT has a nominal time-out period of 18 ms, (with
       no prescaler). The time-out periods vary with
       temperature, VDD and process variations from part to
       part (see DC specs).

So you see, if you want accurate timing, the use of the RTCC is required
since it works off of the crystal controlled oscillator. If you put the
part to sleep,  the crystal oscillator stops and you cannot really get
very accurate timing.

When I built a recording accelerometer using the 16C71, I used the RTCC
with prescaler, checked for zero in the RTCC in a tight loop, On RTCC=0
I sampled, did a little averaging processing, saved the sample to memory
via serial routine to EEPROM, then entered my loop. I figured out ahead
of time that by the time I finished my routines, the RTCC was no longer
at zero so I was not worried about entering the loop and immediately
jumping out again. Also, with the prescaler set to at least 4, you will
not miss the RTCC=0 point. I chose not to use the RTCC interrupt
because I didn't need to do anything else until the time for the next
sample rolled around. Your milage may vary of course.

Regards,

Jerry

===============================================================================
Jerry Ethridge                  Richardson, Tx.              |
ERICSSON NETWORK SYSTEMS                                    /O\
RemoveMEexujetKILLspamspamTakeThisOuTexu.ericsson.se                            \_______[|(.)|]_______/
                                                   o   ++   O   ++   o
===============================================================================

1994\11\03@173823 by crocontroller discussion list

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face
Excerpts from mail: 2-Nov-94 Re: (Fwd)       Re: PIC16C5.. by Jerry
spamBeGoneEthridgespam@spam@EXU.ERICS
> When I built a recording accelerometer using the 16C71, I used the RTCC

   Did you build the accelerometer from "scratch," or did you just
augment a commercially available accelerometer?  Either way, I'd
appreciate a little blurb about what you did.  I'm going to be needing
an accelerometer at some point and have had trouble finding one that
does what I need but doesn't cost $500.  (I need three for a student
project...)

Chris Kristof
Junior ECE
Carnegie Mellon University

1994\11\03@183331 by crocontroller discussion list

flavicon
face
>
>     Did you build the accelerometer from "scratch," or did you just
> augment a commercially available accelerometer?  Either way, I'd
> appreciate a little blurb about what you did.  I'm going to be needing
> an accelerometer at some point and have had trouble finding one that
> does what I need but doesn't cost $500.  (I need three for a student
> project...)
>
> Chris Kristof
> Junior ECE
> Carnegie Mellon University
>

Hello Chris,

I use an Analog devices ADXL50 accelerometer. It is an excellent product
which cost me $75 about 10 months ago. Accelerometers are generally
coming down in price. I will send you a list of manufacturers at the end
of this post.

Back to my device. I use the Analog Devices part because it is very small
(TO-5 can I think). It is very linear, has a built in unused amp that
the designer can use for several puposes, etc. Get the data sheet on it,
I think you will like it.

I use the PIC16C71 because it had an A/D converter on board. It is very
small, has a bigger stack, and you don't have to do all that page switching
stuff if you do far calls in the program. I save the data to EEPROM. I am
currently using two 93c66 for a total of 1024 samples. I wrote the software
to buffer 20 samples in  a rotating ram buffer, and if the last five samples
all exceed 2 G's, then I set a flag that means liftoff of the rocket has
been detected. I then start saving subsequent samples to EEPROM starting with
the 21 position. Once the EEprom is full, I go back and save the buffered
data in the first 20 positions of the EEPROM. This way, I see a small section
where the rocket is sitting on the pad, then I see the liftoff etc. After all
this is complete, The device goes to sleep.

I recover the rocket, pull the EEPROMs and put them in another device that
uses a 16C71 and a Maxim RS232 converter chip. I wrote software to do 9600
baud transfer, and to convert the data to ascii. What I get is a stream
of numbers that can be directly pasted into my spreadsheet for plotting.
It works extremely well and I have been asked to make it available to the
rocket hobby industry.

The version I'm working on now will use Microchips new EEPROMs, the
24LC65 that have 8k. Also, I will use a 10 bit, serial A/D converter
for better resolution, and I will include a small Dallas Semiconductor
RS232 converter on the same board. The Dallas part steals -12 volts from
the host computer in order to transmit it's data without charge pump
circuitry to make the negative voltage. The whole thing will be very
small, since I will try to get most of the parts in the surface mount
package.

Anymore questions, let me know.

Regards,
Jerry


Here is the promised list of acclerometers:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> List of Accelerometer Manufacturers <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

-------------------------------

Analog Devices ADXL50 accelerometer.

Power Supply........................... +5V (+/- 5%)
Measurement Range...................... +/- 50g
Pre-Amp Zero-g output level............ +1.8V
Pre-Amp output span.................... +1.8V (+/-1.2V) at +/-50g
Uncommitted amp output range........... +0.25V to +4.75V
Overall Accuracy....................... 5% of Full Scale
Linearity.............................. 0.5% of Full Scale
Bandwidth.............................. DC to 1kHz
Voltage Noise (p-p)
   at BW = 0.3kHz..................... +/-0.24% of Full Scale
   at BW = 1.0kHz..................... +/-0.48% of Full Scale
Transverse Sensitivity................. 2%
Unpowered Shock Survival............... 2000g

I've found several Distributors:

Newark Electronics..................... 1-800-281-4320
Hamilton-Hallmark...................... 1-800-332-8638
Active Electronics..................... 1-800-677-8899

*******************************

Silicon Designs, Inc.

      - Capacitive Accelerometers

Model 1010, Digital output:

   Produces Digital pulse train in which the density of pulses
(number of pulses a second) is proprtional to applied acceleration.
It operates with a single +5 volt power supply and requires a clock
of 100kHz - 1MHz. The output is ratiometric to the clock frequency
and independent of the power supply voltage. Two forms of digital
signals are provided for direct interfacing to a microprocessor or
counter.

This devices comes in a PLCC package that is smaller than a penny.

Model 1210, Analog output:

   Privides two analog outputs, 1-4 volts, or 4-1 volt, with O g's
at 2.5 volts. The outputs can be used either differentially or single
ended referenced to 2.5 volts. Two reference voltages--+5.0 and +2.5
volts (nominal)-- are required; the output scale factor is ratiometric
to the +5 volt reference voltage.

Address:

Silicon Designs, Inc.
1445-NW Mall Street
Issaquah, WA. 98027-5344
Tel: (206) 391-8329
Fax: (206) 391-0446

Prices start at about $100 and they offer a digital accelerometer
evaluation board for $200.

***********************************

Silicon Microstructures, Inc.

Model 7170 series and 7130 series capacitive accelerometers.

These are relatively large devices with built in ASIC signal
processing.They have very good accuracy specs and are pre-calibrated.
I have not contacted them personally but they will send you some
brochures on all of their devices. They also make pressure sensors.

Address:

Silicon Micostructures, Inc.
46725 Fremont Boulevard
Fremont CA. 94538
Tel: (510) 490-5010
Fax: (510) 490-1119


*********************************************************************

ICSensors
----------
Address:

ICSensors
1701 McCarthy Blvd.
Milpitas, CA 95035-7416

Tel. (800) 767-1888
    (408) 432-1800
Fax. (408) 434-6687
---------------------------------------------

Model 3145

Signal Conditioned Temperature Compensated 0.5 to 4.5 Vdc Output,
Low Cost ( this is a relative statement )

2g, 5g, 10g, 20g, 50g, 100g, 200g ranges

$230 for 1
---------------------------

Model 3140

Instrumentation grade Signal Conditioned Temperature Compensated
0.5 to 4.5 Vdc Output

2g, 5g, 10g, 20g, 50g, 100g, 200g ranges

$295 for 1
---------------------------

Model 3031

OEM Accelerometer Piezoresistive low cost Surface mount package

2g, 5g, 10g, 20g, 50g, 100g, 200g, 500g ranges

$74 for 1
---------------------------

Model 3021 and 3026

OEM Accelerometer Piezoresistive low cost

2g, 5g, 10g, 20g, 50g, 100g, 200g, 500g ranges

price ranges from 98 - 141 for 1, depending on g range

***************************************************************************


Endevco Corporation
30700 Rancho Viejo Road
San Juan Capistrano, CA 92675

Tel. (714) 493-8181
Fax. (714) 661-7231

----------------------------


Variable Capacitance and Piezoresistive Accelerometers

many models, contact Endevco for literature.


***************************************************************************

AMP
P.O. Box 799
Valley Forge, PA 19482

Tel. (610) 666-3500
Fax. (610) 666-3509

--------------------------

Piezo Film accelerometer Sensors

If you contact AMP, they will send you alot of information on
their piezo sensors and include a little piezo film sensor
for you to experiment with.

Their most interesting device is the AHC-04-08 accelerometer/shock
sensor that contains three sensing elements oriented to measure
acceleration in two linear axes and one angular axis. Each sensor
has a dedicated channel with adjustable gain, an adjustable comparator,
and selectable output control to provide either a digital or analog
signal. It is a low profile surface mount chip with 14 pins. It has internal
eeprom for programming the adjustable gains, and output modes.

The only problem I see with this device is that it has a lower
limit on the frequency response. Typically about 7-13 Hz. This means
if it were subjected to a steady 10 G acceleration for example, the
output would rise to 10 G's then decay down to zero even though it
were still at 10 G's. This is good for measuring shocks but not
steady accelerations.

A good point is that it was only $30 for a single unit.

**************************************************************************

'MPSIM & PIC16C54'
1994\11\05@175111 by crocontroller discussion list

flavicon
face
I've been working with the code for my PIC16C54 project on the MPSIM
simulator from MicroChip. As soon as I ussue the GO command there's
a warning that uninitialized code at 01FF has been executed and then
everything else runs as I'd expect it to do. The manual says the '54's
PC defaults to 1F on power up. If I try to put something in that location
like many of the MicroChip BBS examples I get an assembler warning.
What's going on? Is this an assembler or simulator bug? Should I ignore
the MPSIM warning?

Tim McDonough -- RemoveMEtimmedspam_OUTspamcencom.net

1994\11\07@122648 by crocontroller discussion list

flavicon
face
<< The manual says the '54's
PC defaults to 1F on power up. If I try to put something in that location
like many of the MicroChip BBS examples I get an assembler warning.
What's going on? Is this an assembler or simulator bug? Should I ignore
the MPSIM warning? >>

There is only room for 1 instruction at 1FFH, and that should be a GOTO to
the start of your reset code (which should be at 100H or above, for
security and to save valuable subroutine space).

- Don

1994\11\07@175738 by crocontroller discussion list

flavicon
face
On Mon, 7 Nov 1994, Don Lekei wrote:

> There is only room for 1 instruction at 1FFH, and that should be a GOTO to
> the start of your reset code (which should be at 100H or above, for
> security and to save valuable subroutine space).
>
> - Don

Don,

Why do you recommend that the reset code is above 100h FOR SECURITY ?  I
understand about saving valuable subroutine space, but the security
comment puzzles me.

Gary Gaskell

'Need 256K of RAM on a PIC.'
1994\11\07@180358 by crocontroller discussion list

flavicon
face
Has anyone implemented a PIC (16C57) with 256Kbytes of dynamic RAM???

I'm looking into this now - refresh - what a pain...!!!

Anyway, anyone that has done this, what's my best option?

--

           -- Paul Greenwood --  (pablospamspamaustin.ibm.com)

"The bland leadeth the bland and they both shall fall into the kitsch."

1994\11\07@224634 by A.Starr

flavicon
face
> Has anyone implemented a PIC (16C57) with 256Kbytes of
> dynamic RAM???

You have to be joking.....

> I'm looking into this now - refresh - what a pain...!!!
>

duh, thats what they invented DRAM controllers for.

> Anyway, anyone that has done this, what's my best option?
>

go back to school?

>             -  (spam_OUTpablospam_OUTspamspam_OUTaustin.ibm.com)
                                         ^^^^^
                                        ah, that explains everything

1994\11\08@013654 by crocontroller discussion list

flavicon
face
Well you could attach an I2C device to the PIC.  The Philips PCF8583 has
256 bytes of RAM and clock/calendar services

regards

Gary Gaskell
DSTC
Cooperative Research Centre for Distributed Systems Technology
Queensland University of Technology
Ph    +61-7-864 1051            FAX    +61-7-864 1282
Email gaskellspam_OUTspamdstc.qut.edu.au   URL    http://www.dstc.edu.au/intro.html

On Tue, 8 Nov 1994, CtlAltDel wrote:

{Quote hidden}

1994\11\08@072441 by crocontroller discussion list

flavicon
face
> Has anyone implemented a PIC (16C57) with 256Kbytes of dynamic RAM???
> I'm looking into this now - refresh - what a pain...!!!
> Anyway, anyone that has done this, what's my best option?

There was an article in the Feb/Mar 1992 issue of Circuit Cellar about the
PICs, describing their use and giving a sample application. The application
was a simple digital storage scope that sampled 4 channels, saving 256K
samples, and then displayed the results on an oscilloscope. Alot of the
source code was given (and explained) in the article, and the full source
is available from their BBS site.  You can access the file by sending email
containing the phrase "GET DIGSCOPE.ZIP" to ftpmailspamBeGonespam.....circellar.com.

To the person that laughed at the idea of DRAM on a PIC, if you only want
a little bit of control I/O, and lots of memory, it is a very cost effective
solution. Yeah, the software is a bit more difficult, but the cost savings
can be very high for medium-high production, since the hardware costs are
kept very low.

There was even an article about someone that built a wind speed/direction
monitoring station with a PIC and bit-banged the NTSC signal to drive a
monitor - now I think *that* was amazing!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rodney Radford,     Senior Systems Developer,  Image Technology Group
KILLspamsasrerspam.....unx.sas.com  SAS Institute, Inc, Cary, NC 27513  (919) 677-8000 x7703
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

1994\11\08@095335 by crocontroller discussion list

flavicon
face
> Well you could attach an I2C device to the PIC.  The Philips PCF8583 has
> 256 bytes of RAM and clock/calendar services

Thanks but I need 256"K" bytes of RAM.

--

           -- Paul Greenwood --  (spam_OUTpablospamKILLspamaustin.ibm.com)

"The bland leadeth the bland and they both shall fall into the kitsch."

1994\11\08@115645 by crocontroller discussion list

flavicon
face
> There was an article in the Feb/Mar 1992 issue of Circuit Cellar about the
> PICs, describing their use and giving a sample application. The application
> was a simple digital storage scope that sampled 4 channels, saving 256K
> samples, and then displayed the results on an oscilloscope. Alot of the
> source code was given (and explained) in the article, and the full source
> is available from their BBS site.  You can access the file by sending email
> containing the phrase "GET DIGSCOPE.ZIP" to RemoveMEftpmailRemoveMEspamEraseMEcircellar.com.

Thank you very much - I'll check it out.  I DID get the Motorola databook
for their DRAM and it looks pretty easy.  I think I can squeeze out 10,000
or so instructions between refreshes.

--

           -- Paul Greenwood --  (KILLspampablospamspamBeGoneaustin.ibm.com)

"The bland leadeth the bland and they both shall fall into the kitsch."


'Re Pic switching AC'
1994\12\07@141427 by crocontroller discussion list
flavicon
face
Martin:

Using AC (triac method )to control the nitinol wires is possible. But I strongly
suggest that you use zero crossing opto isolators to do the switching. Check
out Digi Key for a selection of solid state relays. Everything you need for AC
switching in one package. A lot of the relays are TTL compatible.

The other scheme that you were refering to in your second post was using SCR,s
in a bridge configuration. This scheme is even more diffcult to emplement than
PWM.

You could try the SGS Thompson L298n this is a TTL compatible Dual H-Bridge
capable of 1.5 amps per bridge. Standard chip used to drive Electro Magnets
Steppers etc.. I believe that Texas Instr. makes this chip also.

{Quote hidden}

Joseph D. West
Electronics Lab. Supervisor
College of Mechanical Eng.
Ohio State University

(614) 292-2845
Fax (614) 292-3163

'How old is the PIC architecture?'
1994\12\09@181026 by crocontroller discussion list

flavicon
face
Hi Pic People,

The other day I was looking through some old Scientific American magazines.
The September 1977 issue (special issue on Microelectronics) has a full-page
ad from General Instrument Corporation advertising a range of microcontrollers
including several PICs. This confirmed what I had been told by others - that
Arizona Microchip acquired the PIC design from GI.

Does anyone know the full story? How old is the PIC architecture? What happened
to GI?

Microcontrollers featured in the ad include:
PIC1655  "For music" with a picture of a record-player
PIC1650  "For applicances" with picture of a microwave oven
PIC1670  "For 'anything'" with picture of digital scales & cash register

Just curious....

Stewart Smith

1994\12\10@010757 by crocontroller discussion list

flavicon
face
I've got a 1982 GI databook that describes the PIC1655, of course at that
time you could only get them with Masked ROMs (no EPROM and definitely
no EEPROM).

--Chuck

'Code hopping with PICS'
1994\12\13@162736 by crocontroller discussion list

flavicon
face
Hi everybody

I am trying to develop a code hopper alarm remote control system using the
PIC16C54 or PIC16C56 micro.

Is there anybody else doing the same or who can help at all?

Regards

Werner Terreblanche
South Africa


EMAIL : wterrebspamspamactive.co.za

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

1994\12\14@105058 by tom

flavicon
picon face
Werner Terreblanche Wrote ;

> I am trying to develop a code hopper alarm remote control system using the
> PIC16C54 or PIC16C56 micro.
>
> Is there anybody else doing the same or who can help at all?
>
I offer the following for comments;

One way of producing a code hopper is as follows:-

1) Both transmitter and receiver contain an identical
  (psuedo) random number generator, and at installation they are put
  in sync i.e. both know what the last number was (have a learn mode
  on the rx, fire off the tx, presto there in sync).

2) Have the rx respond to the NEXT (x) random numbers i.e.

             rx a code
             try and match to next rand
              if fails try again (x) times

  This would be the rx window and needs to be large enough (contain
  sufficient tries) to account for accidental activation of the tx
  when out of range of the rx, as this would otherwise put the two out
  of sync.

3) on the tx each activation causes the next random number to be used
  on the rx each successful match causes the next random number to be
  used.

This way once a code has been used it will not be repeated for the
maximum iterations of the random number generator. any 'replay' device
would fail because it would simply play back a code that was not within
the match window.

Use the E2prom pic (16c84) or have an eeprom connected to the pic to
store the last number used (next random seed).

the following is a code segment of an 8 bit psuedo random generator,
this will give 0 to 255 in random order without repeating for 255
iterations, this could be expanded to a 16bit easily.

Each time it is called it requires the last number as the seed for the
next number.

;*******************************************************************************
**
; Code segment by Gary Whittaker 1993,  << Pubic Domain >>                     *
*
;          RemoveMEgaryspamBeGonespamRemoveMEadvtech.demon.co.uk
**
;-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
**
; l_rand & rand must be defined as variables
**
; CALL this routine for each successive random number
**
;*******************************************************************************
**

;******* next random number routine expects seed (last rand) in l_rand,
;******* returns in next randome number in l_rand
;******* uses a 4 bit xor with rotate left (bits 3,4,5,7)

next_rand       MOVF    l_rand,w
               MOVWF   rand            ;take a copy (leaving one in w)
               BCF     rand,.3         ;set up xor bits 3+5
               BCF     rand,.5
               BTFSC   rand,.4         ;mov bits 4+7 into 3+5 ready for
               BSF     rand,.3         ;the xor
               BTFSC   rand,.7
               BSF     rand,.5
               XORWF   rand,w          ;xor 3+4,5+7 into 3+5
               MOVWF   rand
               BCF     rand,.3         ;clear xor bit 3
               BTFSC   rand,.5         ;mov bit 5 into 3 ready for xor
               BSF     rand,.3
               XORWF   rand,same       ;xor 3+5 into 3
               BCF     status,carry    ;set carry to result
               BTFSC   rand,.3
               BSF     status,carry
               RLF     l_rand,same     ;rotate next into l_rand
               BCF     status,carry    ;clear carry for safety

               RETLW   .0

;*******************************************************************************
*
end
__
  TAK

'Tait's PIC programmer'
1994\12\14@143333 by crocontroller discussion list

flavicon
face
Hi,

> I've seen this mentioned a few times.  Can someone tell me about this ?
> Email is fine (no need to bother the list)

You can ftp the info about this programmer from:

ftp://ftp.ee.ualberta.ca:/pub/cookbook/comp/ibm/pic84pgm.zip

Although many people have let me know that they have got the
programmer to work it is worth giving a few words of caution if you
are thinking of building it:

* I developed this project using a 20MHz 386DX machine and have
 subsequently found the C version to be unreliable when used with my
 33MHz 486DX.  Obviously a timing problem and I will try to fix this
 when I get some spare time.  The Qbasic version still worked though,
 and the C version worked with turbo mode switched off.  You can fix
 it yourself by adding appropriate delays for your own PC.

* Please note that the executable packaged with the programmer info
 was built for hardware using a 7406.  If you use a 7407 you must
 uncomment "#define U7407" and recompile.  The Qbasic source is also
 intended for hardware using a 7406.  To use the Qbasic program with
 7407 based hardware then include these definitions:

 CONST DataInv = 0
 CONST VppOn = 8, VppOff = 0, VddOn = 4, VddOff = 0
 CONST ClkHi = 2, ClkLo = 0, OutHi = 1, OutLo = 0

 (Due to a typo, the program erroneously suggests that you
 should use ClkHi = 4.  Sorry about that.)

* If you don't use LS buffers you should substitute a 7805 for the
 78L05.

Cheers,

David
--
KILLspamdavid.taitspamBeGonespamman.ac.uk

'Code hopping with PICS'
1994\12\14@225157 by crocontroller discussion list

flavicon
face
{Quote hidden}

Hmmmm..... I press my car-alarm transmitter a lot when walking down the
street (just for scientific purposes, of course :-) and I suspect that I may
have some sort of code-hopping system since the installer had to have both
transmitters when he installed the receiver (I think).

mike

1994\12\15@223244 by crocontroller discussion list

flavicon
face
Michael Bender wrote (regarding code-hopping remote controls):

> Hmmmm..... I press my car-alarm transmitter a lot when walking down the
> street (just for scientific purposes, of course :-) and I suspect that I may
> have some sort of code-hopping system since the installer had to have both
> transmitters when he installed the receiver (I think).

Typically each remote has a unique fixed code, and the reciever has to be
programmed for the remotes.  There is usually a switch on the alarm somewhere
to enable programming.

Eric

1994\12\16@001256 by crocontroller discussion list

flavicon
face
| Michael Bender wrote (regarding code-hopping remote controls):
|
| > Hmmmm..... I press my car-alarm transmitter a lot when walking down the
| > street (just for scientific purposes, of course :-) and I suspect that I may
| > have some sort of code-hopping system since the installer had to have both
| > transmitters when he installed the receiver (I think).
|
| Typically each remote has a unique fixed code, and the reciever has to be
| programmed for the remotes.  There is usually a switch on the alarm somewhere
| to enable programming.

What do you think the chances are that one of my remotes could be used
to activate another receiver? I would hope that each receiver and
transmitter from the same company have at least a fixed manufacturer
code, and then a portion of the rest of the code that was variable
based on the matching of the two units.

mike

1994\12\16@022542 by crocontroller discussion list

flavicon
face
>
> What do you think the chances are that one of my remotes could be used
> to activate another receiver? I would hope that each receiver and
> transmitter from the same company have at least a fixed manufacturer
> code, and then a portion of the rest of the code that was variable
> based on the matching of the two units.
>
> mike
>

Some manufacturers of remote controllers use encoder IC's entented for
simple remote control applications and not for high security environments.
These devices typically send only about 12 bits and that's it!

I once made a device that could read the code transmitted by the Tx and then
retransmit that same code at a later time (Using a PIC by the way!)  This
device could easily be used by thief to for example open a car with central
lock.  That is why I am interested in developing a code hopping system.

Regards

Werner
@spam@wterrebSTOPspamspam@spam@active.co.za

'RS-422 / RS-485 with a PIC'
1994\12\16@102702 by crocontroller discussion list

flavicon
face
With all the discussions dealing with an RS-232 interface, has anyone ever
done a current loop comm line using RS-422 or RS-485 as the medium ?

The hardware is the easy part - Maxim also makes chips for this.  Is the serial
stream from the source the same format as RS-232 -  I would guess not.

FYI, RS422 is used in industrial applications for multidrop type connections -
such as several controllers all one a single comm line, each with its own
address to decode, but not point to point as RS-232 is.
:wq

1994\12\16@114132 by crocontroller discussion list

flavicon
face
Just like RS232, RS422 & RS485 specify: voltage
levels, driver type (single ended,differential)
connector type and pinout, and signal conventions.
They do _not_ specify protocol. You can run standard
Async. on any of these. The sender and receiver just
need to talk/listen in the same language (protocol).
The overhead for multidrop can be done with hardware
or it could be done in a PIC application just using
the PIC. I have worked on a project where we used
RS485 & Std Async. It was 80C186 based, not PIC.

Brian Read

1994\12\16@125136 by crocontroller discussion list

flavicon
face
 How does one do multidrop?  I assume that the pic has tri-state...
How do you do addressing without extra lines?

 -mike

According to Brian Read:
{Quote hidden}

--
Mike Stupak
stupakspamBeGonespamspamBeGonessd.intel.com

'Code hopping with PICS'
1994\12\16@130627 by crocontroller discussion list

flavicon
face
On Fri, 16 Dec 1994, Werner Terreblance wrote:

> Some manufacturers of remote controllers use encoder IC's entented for
> simple remote control applications and not for high security environments.
> These devices typically send only about 12 bits and that's it!

 This is the way my Ungo transmitter is made. It has a 144049 buffer
with some of it's pins soldered to gnd(or 5v, can't tell) for the code,
and that is connected to a 145026 encoder which transmits nine bits.

 Wouldn't be that hard for a thief with a little ee knowledge to hook a
PIC up to it and cycle thru the possible combinations...

>
> I once made a device that could read the code transmitted by the Tx and then
> retransmit that same code at a later time (Using a PIC by the way!)  This
> device could easily be used by thief to for example open a car with central
> lock.  That is why I am interested in developing a code hopping system.

 You might also want to look into one way encryption ciphers(hash
tables) there was a discussion on the cypherpunks mailing list several
months back about using one way functions in security applications.

  Brian

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Everyone is a prisoner holding their own key."    | finger spamBeGoneblanespamseanet.com
   -- Journey                                     | PGP 2.6 email accepted
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

'RS-422 / RS-485 with a PIC'
1994\12\16@132324 by crocontroller discussion list

flavicon
face
>
>   How does one do multidrop?  I assume that the pic has tri-state...
> How do you do addressing without extra lines?

With RS-485 one would use a RS-485 transceiver which have separate XMIT
and receive pins, or you could share. Two pin support is possible.

With multidrop you go to a 9 bit protocol. The ninth bit indicates if the
data is a address or data. UARTS with multidrop hardware support can be
set to listen for a particular address and ignore all other bytes. In this
mode all the receivers will wait for an address packet. When one is received
each will check against their own address. All negative matches will result
in the UART going back into address only mode. The one (or more) that matches
switch the UART to receive the data. PICS of course be programmed to emulate
this behavior but they'll have to eat the overhead of reading rach byte.

Hope this helps,

BTW I wanted everyone to know that I finally got David Tait's PIC 16C84
programmer to funtion properly under Linux. Thanks for all the suggestions.

BAJ

'Code hopping with PICS'
1994\12\16@141219 by crocontroller discussion list

flavicon
face
>>
>> What do you think the chances are that one of my remotes could be used
>> to activate another receiver? I would hope that each receiver and
>> transmitter from the same company have at least a fixed manufacturer
>> code, and then a portion of the rest of the code that was variable
>> based on the matching of the two units.
>>
>> mike
>>
>
>Some manufacturers of remote controllers use encoder IC's entented for
>simple remote control applications and not for high security environments.
>These devices typically send only about 12 bits and that's it!
>
>Werner


FWIW, I have an Ungo car alarm, and the docs say it's got gizillions of code
combinations, but the base and the remote only have eight DIP switches in
them for setting your code.  When I called them up and said, "Hey, where are
these gizillions of codes?"  all they would say was, "It's in dere".

Are they saying the R/T have fixed code prefixes inside?  Would they
distribute matching sets to the same areas?  That would be bad.  Who's to
say they don't do this?

Anyone have any hard information on this?

- JohnR

--
John R. Haggis            spam_OUThaggisSTOPspamspamnetcom.com
Millennium Research
(408) 269-1814 vox
(408) 269-9323 fax

'RS-422 / RS-485 with a PIC'
1994\12\16@141838 by crocontroller discussion list

flavicon
face
Multi-drop is kind of like I2C, everybody listens
for traffic addressed to them, then takes control of
the buss for their needs, when done the buss is released.
You can have several different approaches but the simplest
is to do it just like I2C (but without the clocking from the
iaster).

Brian

'Competion for PICS?'
1994\12\16@142708 by crocontroller discussion list

flavicon
face
Dear fellow PIC fans


EAT THIS! :-)

How does a 20 pin micro with 128 bytes RAM, 2K reprogrammable FLASH memory,
15 I/O lines, Serial IO, 5 Interrupts, 2 Timers etc sound to you?  Well
this is exactly what ATMEL came up with in their new AT89C251 microcontroller
that is just being released.  The chip is fully compatible with normal
8051 microcontrollers except for the fact that it's smaller, has less I/O
pins and draw less current.  Just think of all the high-level compilers that
you can use with these devices.  Hows that for competion for PIC's?

I know this newsgroup is about PIC microcontrollers and NOT its competitors,
but I think that I am more likely to find a solution to my problem from
you guys than anywhere else.  My problem is namely this :

I'm very urgently trying to build a programmer for these devices.  However
so far I was very unsuccesfull in locating programming info or algorithms
on how to do this.  Even when I wrote to ATMEL themselves they only send
a data sheet which did not contain the vital info.  A article in Usenet
sci.electronics also yielded no results.  Any comments would be appreciated.

Just by the way speaking of programmers : I have build a very succesfull
low cost programmer for above chip's bigger brothers (the AT89C51 and
87C51).  The programmer can be build for under $100.  If anyone is
interested in building one for themselves I can send them the Orcad
schematic drawings as well as the software to implement it.  Just
email directly to me at:

  RemoveMEwterrebspamspamactive.co.za


Best regards

Werner Terreblanche


'RS-422 / RS-485 with a PIC'
1994\12\16@143748 by crocontroller discussion list

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On Fri, 16 Dec 1994, Mike Stupak wrote:

>   How does one do multidrop?  I assume that the pic has tri-state...
> How do you do addressing without extra lines?
>
>   -mike

Well if your question is how do the chips know when they are the
addressee of a message, it is easy.  They listen to all of the packets
and either throw away those that aren't too them, or they only listen
until the address deviates from theirs and they just ignore the rest of
the packet.  Multidrop communication can be done with nothing more than
using pull-up resistors, sortof like the I2C app note in the PIC
embedded controller book.

Darryl

'Code hopping with PICS'
1994\12\16@161440 by crocontroller discussion list

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>
John R. Haggis wrote:

> FWIW, I have an Ungo car alarm, and the docs say it's got gizillions of code
> combinations, but the base and the remote only have eight DIP switches in
> them for setting your code.  When I called them up and said, "Hey, where are
> these gizillions of codes?"  all they would say was, "It's in dere".
>
> Are they saying the R/T have fixed code prefixes inside?  Would they
> distribute matching sets to the same areas?  That would be bad.  Who's to
> say they don't do this?
>
> Anyone have any hard information on this?
>
> - JohnR
>

Even if they do have longer codes than just the eight bits, the code could
still be sampled by a fast microprocessor in much the same manner as the
multiple IR remote control devices work which "learns" a code.  Unless the
code is different every time you press the button, there will be an easy
option to decipher the code.  I have experimented with this and it is
definetely possible.

Regards

Werner Terreblanche
TakeThisOuTwterrebspamspamRemoveMEactive.co.za

1994\12\16@162305 by crocontroller discussion list

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>
> On Fri, 16 Dec 1994, Werner Terreblance wrote:
>
> > Some manufacturers of remote controllers use encoder IC's entented for
> > simple remote control applications and not for high security environments.
> > These devices typically send only about 12 bits and that's it!
>
>   This is the way my Ungo transmitter is made. It has a 144049 buffer
> with some of it's pins soldered to gnd(or 5v, can't tell) for the code,
> and that is connected to a 145026 encoder which transmits nine bits.
>
>   Wouldn't be that hard for a thief with a little ee knowledge to hook a
> PIC up to it and cycle thru the possible combinations...
>

There's an ad in the latest Nuts & Volts magazine for just such a device.
Of course, only lock smiths and car repossesion professionals ;-) can
buy them.  It claims that in a mere 10 minutes, 90% of all car alarms
on the market can be "silenced".

Perhaps there *is* money for EE's on "the dark side".

cje

--
Chris Elmquist, N0JCF           On Dr. McCoy's tombstone: "He's dead Jim".
KILLspamchrisespamspamspam_OUTn0jcf.com
n0jcfRemoveMEspamamsat.org

'Competion for PICS?'
1994\12\16@174808 by crocontroller discussion list

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> How does a 20 pin micro with 128 bytes RAM, 2K reprogrammable FLASH memory,
> 15 I/O lines, Serial IO, 5 Interrupts, 2 Timers etc sound to you?  Well
> this is exactly what ATMEL came up with in their new AT89C251 microcontroller
> that is just being released.  The chip is fully compatible with normal
> 8051 microcontrollers except for the fact that it's smaller, has less I/O
> pins and draw less current.  Just think of all the high-level compilers that
> you can use with these devices.  Hows that for competion for PIC's?

I've used quite a few of the 40-pin 89C51 micros and they are indeed nice.
They aren't however as frugal with power as the smaller PIC chips and
they cost quite a bit more (don't know about the '251). The last time
we bought 89C51's they were around $11.00 ea for 500 pieces and the
89C52's (8052 compatible) was around $15.00.

I will concede the point about languages though--my C compiler with
floating point, etc. does tend to spoil me!

We were told by our Atmel rep (also our MicroChip rep by the way) that
Atmel sees the 89Cxx processors more as alternatives to prototyping
with 87Cxx series parts than they do for production use. I think
if they looked more towards people that use them in larger quantities
to set pricing they could own a much more significant share of the
market.

That's enough. Don't want the topic police after me...   :)

Tim McDonough -- EraseMEtimmedSTOPspamspamRemoveMEcencom.net

'Code hopping with PICS'
1994\12\17@011301 by tom

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> >
> John R. Haggis wrote:
>
> > Are they saying the R/T have fixed code prefixes inside?  Would they
> > distribute matching sets to the same areas?  That would be bad.  Who's to
> > say they don't do this?
> >
> > Anyone have any hard information on this?
Batching sets to an area would be uneconomical given the sales rates of alarms.
There are at least half a dozen different coding chips on the market, each uses
a slightly different way of producing the code.
_Most_ of them use at least 12 bit code.
A couple of Motorola devices use 3-way sensing on the inputs
i.e. pos, neg, or floating input gives a code differ.
Thats 12 x 3 x,,, er, who's got a calculator ? :)

Now if you did it with a PIC, you could have 8 bits user selected and a couple
of locs. with random nos pre-programmed. Mix and match before transmitting and
have the decode routine learn it's relevant Tx code. That gives you 24 bit code
with one 8 way dil-switch. Then transmit the code twice, the second time
inverted and code samplers will just fall over.

Then Werner wrote ;
> >
>
> Even if they do have longer codes than just the eight bits, the code could
> still be sampled by a fast microprocessor in much the same manner as the
> multiple IR remote control devices work which "learns" a code.  Unless the
> code is different every time you press the button, there will be an easy
> option to decipher the code.  I have experimented with this and it is
> definetely possible.

Possible, but an unrealistic time-scale. The micro does'nt have to be fast BTW
'cos the code is not transmitted all that fast, a PIC running at 8 Meg would
still take, from memory over 3 hours to cycle.
__
  TAK

'Low-cost PIC programmer'
1994\12\19@155602 by crocontroller discussion list

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Hi, guys (and gals)...

I've heard a lot of talk about PIC programmers, and just wanted to let you know
that we offer our programmer in a "Hobbyist Pack" configuration.  You have to
supply the cables and power supply, and you have to print the docs.  But, you
get an assembled and tested programmer, and you get the necessary assembler and
simulator software.  At half the normal price, we've had a lot of takers lately.

To use the Hobbyist Pack programmer, you'll need a PC with a parallel port.
You'll also need Windows, if you want to print the PDF-format docs.

At this time, the programmer supports the 16C5x, 16C71, and 16C84.  With an
optional 40-pin adapter (which you can buy or build), it also supports the
16C64 and 16C74.


------------------------  Lance Walley  ---------------------------
                         President
                         Parallax, Inc.

1994\12\19@182312 by crocontroller discussion list

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IMHO:

I am always pleased to have representatives from various industry-related
companies on the PIC list. I also appreciate when these representatives
give cogent, pertinent answers to specific questions about their products
(the various folks at Microchip, and Don Lekei being two excellent
examples).

However, I was a little concerned that the post quoted below (from Lance
Walley of *Parallax*) might be crossing the line into inappropriate
commercial promotion. It is certainly on the reasonable side of commercial
posts (vaguely on topic, not too long, posted by a list member, etc.).
Nonetheless, it is essentially an unsolicited, unpaid advertisement (and
just in time for the Christmas rush ;)

To my mind, it is a rough call, since I want to retain the knowledge of
someone like Lance, without subjecting the PIC list to a stream of junk
mail.

How do other people feel about this? Did the discussion of David Tait's
programmer warrant the (admittedly brief) mention/promotion of the Parallax
Hobbyist Pack? Do members of the list want a more explicit policy on
commercial/industry postings (heck, maybe everyone else likes advertising
in this context). At this time, we have no explicit policy, and Lance was
certainly within his rights (which might differ from netiquette... but
violation of netiquette is not yet officially punishable on this forum ;)

I am not trying to give Lance too hard a time. Istead, I would use his post
as a jumping point to proactively deal with this issue (an issue which I
think we will continue to see as more suppliers get hooked to the net,
possibly viewing the PIC list as a great way to hit a tasty well-targeted
market for essentially free.)

jory bell
spam_OUTjoryRemoveMEspamEraseMEmit.edu

ps: I got a note from someone in digest mode who had not received a digest
for a few days. If someone who is in digest mode could drop me a private
email if they are still getting their digests, I could tell if it is a
problem specific to the one acount or something more general. thanks.

{Quote hidden}

1994\12\19@185308 by crocontroller discussion list

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I certainly had no objection to the "ad", nor do I have any objection
to "ads" running in the future.  I suspect that my opinion is currently
tempered by the fact that Parallax builds and sells some pretty good
stuff.  I also suspect my opininon in the future may well depend on how
many "ads" start appearing.

With that in mind, a rigidly enforced policy that ads have a one word subject
.. ADVERTISEMENT ..  may solve the problem.

Alan

--

Alan Rothenbush             |   There must be an ideal world, a sort of
Academic Computing Services |   mathematicians's paradise, where everything
Simon Fraser University     |   happens as it does in textbooks.
Burnaby, B.C., Canada       |                            Bertrand Russell

1994\12\19@185515 by crocontroller discussion list

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Ran...

I'm sorry that you had some problems with the Hobbyist Pack.  It's our first
attempt at a product with on-disk docs., and we're learning.  We tried it on
several PCs, but they must have already had ATM installed.  As for the phone
cable, we updated the docs to make this a bit clearer (we state that the
customer should use a twisted cable); we also suggest that customers use a
cable that's meant for a phone, and we mention the grocery store or Radio
Shack as a source.  Anyway, we'll make whatever changes are necessary, as we
learn more about it.


------------------------  Lance Walley  ---------------------------
                         President
                         Parallax, Inc.

1994\12\19@192724 by crocontroller discussion list

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I'm game to receive things like the note from Parallax on the
DISCOUNTED, hobby class unit.  Just like I don't mind hearing about
TI DSK kits, DS750, motorola hc11 promos etc., these are designed
to give deep discounts to folks like us in the hobby area to
hopefully get us started using a particular product / technology.

I would NOT go for any announcements in a group like this for
Standard Commercial List Price offers.  Not that there shouldn't
be a forum for such things, but not here.

I think all my above examples qualify - the TI DSK only has
one price, LIST, but is really not a product for the pro.  It's
truly an entry into experimenting at a price for hobbyists; the
standard COMMERCIAL product starts closer to a thou.

Cheers / mark

1994\12\19@204201 by crocontroller discussion list

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I think Parallax's posts so far have been fine, but then I frequently make
quasi-commercial posts to the mailing list most closely involved with my
comany's products.  As was said, the Internet IS commercial, these days.

Even in days gone by, it was deemed appropriate for companies to post
technical information of likely interest to the members of the mailing
list.  After some discussion, even a few hard-heads were forced to admit
that price is a very important part of technical information these days.

In general, what should be avoided is stuff that looks like advertisments.
Especially self-indulgent, competition-bashing, technical-content free
advertisements (like ours!  Or our competitors!)  Also to be avoided are
personal vendettas and competition bashing in general.  (eg, it would be
OK to send the parallax assemblers list of opcodes and what not, but it
would NOT be OK to repsond to someone's request for help with source code
by starting "first get rid of that piece of crap microchip assembler and
buy ours instead.")  (This OUGHT to be obvious, and come under the heading
of "be polite".  However, I read plenty of stuff from people who just haven't
gotten the idea.)

BillW
cisco

1994\12\19@223439 by crocontroller discussion list

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I think the "advertisement" in this case was acceptable. It was for a
product related to the mail list; as you point out it was very short;
and, it was not an obnoxious "send xxx before midnight tonight and
get ghinsu steak knives..." type of ad.

The suggestion of placing ADVERTISEMENT in the subject line seems to
be a good one by the way.

Regarding manufacturers reps, etc. participating in the list all I
would recommend is that they don't use every post to hawk their
products and that the discussions do not ever degenerate to mud
slinging at the competition. A comment such as "product abc will
accomplish what you want by doing thus and so..." is acceptable.
A comment like "well you wouldn't have that problem if you used
our new widget instead of that other brand..." is out of line so
far as I'm concerned.

Just my two cents...

Tim McDonough -- TakeThisOuTtimmedRemoveMEspam@spam@cencom.net

1994\12\19@232403 by crocontroller discussion list

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I'm glad to see the manufacturer or service provider available to answer
questions and provide free advice about their product and/or service. It
wasn't like the obnoxsciouse, unsolicited price list mailed to the world
a week ago.

Being the owner of a Parallax Programmer, I remember reading something
regarding that programmer not exactly following the Microchip programming
process, something about programming voltages maybe? I wonder if that can
effect the long term reliability of a PIC.

Also, does Parallax have their BBS available by ftp? I would like some
toll-free downloads :)

Scott Stephens

1994\12\19@233217 by tom

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Hi, and Merry Christmas to each.

Jory wrote;
> However, I was a little concerned that the post quoted below (from Lance
> Walley of *Parallax*) might be crossing the line into inappropriate
> commercial promotion. It is certainly on the reasonable side of commercial
> posts (vaguely on topic, not too long, posted by a list member, etc.).
> Nonetheless, it is essentially an unsolicited, unpaid advertisement (and
> just in time for the Christmas rush ;)

I'd like to congratulate Lance on <IMHO> managing to walk a *very* fine line
between "a helpful posting" and "crass commercialism" :)

>
> To my mind, it is a rough call, since I want to retain the knowledge of
> someone like Lance, without subjecting the PIC list to a stream of junk
> mail.
>
> How do other people feel about this? Did the discussion of David Tait's
> programmer warrant the (admittedly brief) mention/promotion of the Parallax
> Hobbyist Pack?
Yes, it was <nearly> bang on topic. ;) But too late for Xmas for me ;(

> At this time, we have no explicit policy, and Lance was
> certainly within his rights (which might differ from netiquette... but
> violation of netiquette is not yet officially punishable on this forum ;)

Well, to quote a well known balding Englishman,  " Make it so. . "

> I am not trying to give Lance too hard a time. Istead, I would use his post
> as a jumping point to proactively deal with this issue (an issue which I
> think we will continue to see as more suppliers get hooked to the net,
> possibly viewing the PIC list as a great way to hit a tasty well-targeted
> market for essentially free.)

In another Msg. Alan Rothenbush Proposed allowing advertising providing it was
identified as such on the subject: line.
I am *strongly* against this idea. I have to *pay* to download this stuff and I
ain't gonna pay to get junk mail. In fact I rather approved of the way Jory
treated the last "spam" that came our way.

I vote for a version of that to be robo-posted to everyone that joins the list,
then we've got a chance to retire on the profits ;)
Anyone else ?

Oh, BTW. What about the FAQ ?
How close to "advertising" do you want that to be ?
Where do *I* draw the line ?
Yours, Puzzled of Warrington UK ;)
__
  TAK

1994\12\20@012915 by crocontroller discussion list

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>I'm glad to see the manufacturer or service provider available to answer
>questions and provide free advice about their product and/or service. It
>wasn't like the obnoxsciouse, unsolicited price list mailed to the world
>a week ago.
>
>Being the owner of a Parallax Programmer, I remember reading something
>regarding that programmer not exactly following the Microchip programming
>process, something about programming voltages maybe? I wonder if that can
>effect the long term reliability of a PIC.
>
>Also, does Parallax have their BBS available by ftp? I would like some
>toll-free downloads :)
>
>Scott Stephens

Indeed, our programmer does not follow the programming process exactly.  A
"production quality" programmer will program and verify PICs at 4.5 and 5.5
volts.  Our programmer simply programs and verifies at 5 volts.  However, I
was told the following info:  the minimum programming pulse is 11 uS, and
our programmer uses 100 uS pulses; also, a 3X overpulse is performed for
absolute sureness.  Many customers use our programmer for production purposes,
and we have never heard of a long-term reliability problem (if it's any
comfort, our programmer is used to program all PICs that are used in our
products, like the Stamp).

Regarding the BBS and ftp, we just got our ftp sight up a few days ago.
Essentially, the BBS files are now available via ftp.  In time, the BBS will
actually be "Internetable" itself.  For now, the BBS files are simply copied
to our server.  I don't think our sysop has made the usual description files,
but most files have self-explanatory names.



------------------------  Lance Walley  ---------------------------
                         Parallax, Inc.

1994\12\20@013126 by Bret Berger

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The Parallax post seemed appropriate to me... low key, to the point, and
concerning something aimed at small company/hobbiest types.  I'd rather
see you concern yourself with raising the S/N ratio by discouraging some
of the small talk.

EraseMEbretRemoveMEspamstonefly.wariat.org



1994\12\20@023056 by crocontroller discussion list

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For what its worth, I like the "adds". Lance's post is within context.

No problem from me on this. Its PIC related, thats good enough.

--jorge

On Mon, 19 Dec 1994, jory bell wrote:

{Quote hidden}

know
> >that we offer our programmer in a "Hobbyist Pack" configuration.  You have to
> >supply the cables and power supply, and you have to print the docs.  But, you
> >get an assembled and tested programmer, and you get the necessary assembler
and
{Quote hidden}

1994\12\20@092133 by crocontroller discussion list

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All:

 I did not consider Lance's post out of place in the context of the
discussion.  His post, to me, was merely informative, and not a blatant
commercial announcement.  And since it elicited at least one (so
far) review of the product from a user, it may be helpful to the rest of
us in choosing such products in the future.
 While the internet does allow free advertising for commercial
enterprises, the advertisers must also accept the immediate feedback,
which is often critical.  No other medium gives us that ability.

* Douglas Martin * Design Engr/Elec. Technician * dmartinspam_OUTspam@spam@bgsuvax.bgsu.edu *
*         BGSU Department of Chemistry - Bowling Green, Ohio - USA         *
* 'Ticking away the moments that make up a dull day . . .'   -  Pink Floyd *
*****                                                                  *****


On Mon, 19 Dec 1994, jory bell wrote:

{Quote hidden}

know
> >that we offer our programmer in a "Hobbyist Pack" configuration.  You have to
> >supply the cables and power supply, and you have to print the docs.  But, you
> >get an assembled and tested programmer, and you get the necessary assembler
and
{Quote hidden}

1994\12\20@095946 by crocontroller discussion list

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Lance Walley <lwalleyKILLspamspamEraseMEPARALLAXINC.COM> wrote :
>
> Indeed, our programmer does not follow the programming process exactly.  A
> "production quality" programmer will program and verify PICs at 4.5 and 5.5
> volts.  Our programmer simply programs and verifies at 5 volts.  However, I


Does anyone have figures for the failure rate at marginal voltages (i.e.
the proportion of PICs that verify OK at 5v but not at 4.5 or 5.5) ?

I need to build an in-system programmer for the 16c84 and from what
Lance says it may not be worth adding the minor extra complexity of a
programmable supply rail.

-adrian

'Commercialism on the PIC email list '
1994\12\20@105120 by don.wills

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Dear Jory,

My 2 cents - I think that the commercial message sent by Lance Walley was
just fine for this mailing list.  I would like to see all vendors of PIC
products respond when a person asks a question about what is available (if
they have a relevant product).

Don Wills



'Ethernet with a PIC'
1994\12\22@150532 by crocontroller discussion list

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Anyone ever used a PIC to decode ethernet packets?  Say, you are looking for
a single opcode within the packet that when decoded, allowed the controller
to do something - i.e., the ethernet packet would be decoded to trigger the
controller.

HCooper
EraseMEhcooper@spam@spam@spam@es.com

'How old is the PIC architecture?'
1994\12\23@072124 by Alex

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In article: <@spam@9412100210.aa18243spamspamKILLspampunt.demon.co.uk> spamBeGonessmithRemoveMEspamEraseMEcsuvax1.murdoch.edu.au
writes:
> The other day I was looking through some old Scientific American magazines.
> The September 1977 issue (special issue on Microelectronics) has a full-page
> ad from General Instrument Corporation advertising a range of microcontrollers
> including several PICs. This confirmed what I had been told by others - that
> Arizona Microchip acquired the PIC design from GI.

This is more tha just a story...see below.

>
> Does anyone know the full story? How old is the PIC architecture? What happene
d
> to GI?
>

Back in 1965, GI formed a Microelectronics Division, and indeed used
this division to generate some of the earliest viable EPROM and EEPROM
memory architectures. As you may be aware, the GI Microelectronucs
Division were also responsible for a wide variety of digital and analog
functions, in the AY3-xxxx and AY5-xxxx families.

GI also generated a 16 bit microprocessor, called the CP1600, in the
early 70s. This was a reasonable microprocessor, but not particularly
good at handling i/os. For some very specific applications where good
i/o handling was needed, GI designed a Peripheral Interface Controller
(or PIC for short), in around 1975. It was designed to be very fast,
since it was i/o handling for a 16 bit machine, but didn't need a huge
amount of functionality, so its microcoded instruction set was small.
Hopefully, you can see what's coming....yes, the architecture designed
in '75 is substantially the PIC16C5x architecure today. Granted, the
1975 version was manufactured in NMOS, and was only available in masked
ROM versions, but still a good little uC. The market, however, didn't
particularly think so, and the PIC remained designed in at a handful of
large customers only.

During the early 80s, GI took a long hard look at their business, and
restructured, leaving them to concentrate on their core activities,
which is essentially power semiconductors. Indeed they are still doing
this very successfully now. GI Microelectronics Division became GI
Microelectronics Inc (a wholly owned subsidiary), which in 85 was
finally sold to venture capital investors, including the fab in
Chandler, Arizona.  The venture capital people
took a long hard look at the products in the business, and got rid of
most of it - all the AY3- and AY5- parts and a whole bunch of other
stuff, leaving the core business of the PIC and the serial and parallel
EEPROMs and the parallel EPROMs. A decision was taken to restart the
new company, named Arizona Microchip Technology, with embedded control
as its differentiator from the rest of the pack.

As part of this strategy, the PIC165x NMOS family was redesigned to use
one of the other things that the fledgling company was good at, i.e.
EPROM - the concept of the CMOS based, OTP and eraseable EPROM program
memory PIC16C5x family was born.

Does this answer your questions?

Alex R. Baker - Field Apps Engineer Ph: +44 628 851077  Car: +44 831 494921
Arizona Microchip Technology        Fx: +44 628 850259  Email: RemoveMEalexKILLspamspamRemoveMEmicrochp.dem
on.co.uk
ANY VIEWS EXPRESSED HERE ARE MINE AND DO NOT NECESSARILY REPRESENT THOSE OF MY E
MPLOYER


'Digital Osscilloscope with PIC'
1995\01\06@170240 by crocontroller discussion list
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>Your PDF worked great.
>Do you have your Stamp Apps in PDF format like your PIC Apps?


Right now, they're not ready for PDF'ing.  However, they should be ready in
1-2 weeks.  Please try our ftp site a bit later.


------------------------  Lance Walley  ---------------------------
                         Parallax, Inc.

'Math with a PIC'
1995\01\07@000318 by crocontroller discussion list

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Martin Kirk (TakeThisOuTmlkspamasu.edu) wrote:

>Here is my situation.  The input data is 8-bit, two's complement
>data.  I need to multiply two inputs together then multiply the result
>by 8 and still get the result to fit in 16 bits.
>
>As I see it the max 8-bit value can be FFh (-1).  In order to
>make the multiply work for the 16-bit math I need to set all upper 8
>bits (I think) so that my multiplier data is FFFFh.  This will cause an
>overflow if I have two such values to multiply so I was going to limit
>one of my inputs to 5 bits (ie, max value = 1Fh).  But if I do this how
>do I use this 5-bit representation of -1 in the 16-bit adder???

Martin:

The two's-complement representation was designed to solve exactly your
problem.  If you're using narrow numbers (with a small number of
digits) and want to translate them to wider numbers (with more digits),
all you have to do is "sign-extend" your numbers.  That is, replicate
the sign bit (the narrow representation's leftmost bit) to the left,
filling all the "extra" bits in the wider representation.

In your case, you want to extend 5-bit numbers in the range [-16 - 15]
to 16-bit numbers.  Here... Take a look at the 5-bit and 16-bit
representations of some numbers in that range:

       Decimal         5-Bit Binary            16-Bit Binary
       -------         ------------            -------------
       0               00000                   00000000 00000000
       1               00001                   00000000 00000001
       10              01010                   00000000 00001010
       15              01111                   00000000 00001111
       -1              11111                   11111111 11111111
       -10             10110                   11111111 11110110
       -15             10000                   11111111 11110000

As you can see, bit-positions 5-15 in the 16-bit numbers contain the
same value (0 for positive numbers, 1 for negative) that's in bit 4.

[If you're REAL unfamiliar with binary notation, I guess I should tell
you that the bits are numbered from right to left, starting with bit
number 0.  If you're not, I apologize for talking down to you.]

If you were writing your own math routines or were more comfortable with
binary math, I'd recommend that you write your multiply routine to use
the 5-bit value directly; the resulting code would be shorter and would
execute more quickly.  However, since you're using pre-packaged
routines, just extend the sign bit into the upper bits before you do the
multiplication, and you'll be fine.

-Andy


--
Andrew Warren - spamBeGonefastfwdKILLspamspamTakeThisOuTix.netcom.com
Fast Forward Engineering, Vista, California

1995\01\09@075617 by crocontroller discussion list

flavicon
face
>         Here is my situation.  The input data is 8-bit, two's complement
> data.  I need to multiply two inputs together then multiply the result by
> 8 and still get the result to fit in 16 bits.
>
>         As I see it the max 8-bit value can be FFh (-1).  In order to
> make the multiply work for the 16-bit math I need to set all upper 8 bits
> (I think) so that my multiplier data is FFFFh.  This will cause an
> overflow if I have two such values to multiply so I was going to limit
> one of my inputs to 5 bits (ie, max value = 1Fh).  But if I do this how
> do I use this 5-bit representation of -1 in the 16-bit adder???
>
Hi Martin,

I'm not sure that I fully understand what you are trying to do.  If you
convert your data from two's complement, you can simply multiply the
two values and then left shift the 16-bit result three times for the 8*a*b
result.

If you leave the data in 2's comp. format, when you multiply you will
get the following:

   a+a2=h'100' or a2=h'100'-a  these are your 2's comp values
   b+b2=h'100' or b2=h'100'-b

Now multiplying a2*b2

   a2*b2 = h'10000' - h'100'*a - h'100'*b + a*b

For a 16-bit result, the h'10000' overflows.  To get your desired value
of a*b you must correct the a2*b2 result by the following

   a*b = a2*b2 + h'100'*a + h'100'*b - h'10000'

This simply means to add a and b to the high byte of the 2 byte a2*b2 result,
but your data is still in 2's comp.  So you'll need to substitute

   a*b = a2*b2 + h'100'*(h'100'-a2) + h'100'*(h'100'-b2) - h'10000'

or

   a*b = a2*b2 - h'100'*a2 - h'100'*b2 + h'10000'

So, you can get your a*b from you a2*b2 by subtracting a2 and b2 from the
high byte of a2*b2.  You may want to use the 16-bit subtraction with a2
and b2 as the high byte.

Now that you have a*b, just left shift three times for 8*a*b.

I hope this is correct.

Good luck,

Derrick Early
EraseMEearly.....spamKILLspamfinite.nrl.navy.mil

'!*!*!*!*!*! pic list name change !*!*!*!*!*!'
1995\01\13@081244 by crocontroller discussion list

flavicon
face
I don't use too many mailing lists--am I correct in assuming that I
need to do nothing as far as the changeover goes accept when posting
an original message to the list?


Tim McDonough -- spamtimmedspamcencom.net

1995\01\13@135457 by crocontroller discussion list

flavicon
face
"unsubscribe"!!!! That's unthinkable!!!


Tim McDonough -- timmedSTOPspamspamcencom.net


On Fri, 13 Jan 1995, jory bell wrote:

{Quote hidden}

'*** List renaming to PicList ***'
1995\01\15@011004 by crocontroller discussion list

flavicon
face
Dear Subscriber to the PIC discussion list--

As a result of MIT's coordination of previously separate computing systems,
it has become necessary to rename this discussion list.  Beginning with
Tuesday 17 January 1995, please use the name PICLIST in place of PIC for all
commands to and communication with this list.  We shall try to insure that
messages specifying the former name, during a suitable grace period, will
receive a notice of the name change.

We regret that we have found such a change necessary for the benefit of our
local clients, but trust that it should not cause any great disruption for
you.  Please let us know immediately if it does not behave properly for you.

Art Anger, Postmaster@MITVMA

'Surplus PIC tools'
1995\01\26@021652 by Lance Walley

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face
I hope this isn't too commercial...

Over the past year or two, we've developed several PIC development tools.
Most of these have been mid-range downloaders, I/O simulators, etc.  Late
in 1994, we introduced some in-circuit emulators, which are now taking
sales from the earlier tools.

Which brings us to this:  we have several products that we'd like to clear
out.  They're good products, but they're just not in much demand, anymore.
Rather than trash them, we'd like to donate them to schools and
universities.  If you're interested, please let us know.

Hope I haven't ruffled too many feathers.


------------------------  Lance Walley  ---------------------------
                         Parallax, Inc.

1995\01\26@101230 by John M. Johnson

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face
Oh god yes.  My univ has almost nothing in the way of pic tools.  except
the programmer i have.  We would love stuff like that.  Actually we dont
have a lot of hardware at all.  We have crappy scopes and really shitty
HP LA(yech).  Well if i am not number 2K in line and we are worthy let me
know :) btw my address says it all. University of Texas at Dallas.

{Quote hidden}

later
       John
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Johnson  Team OS/2 member | @spam@johnsonj.....spamspambga.com | spamjohnsonj.....spam.....utdallas.edu
                  C&H Technologies VXI Plug N' Play member
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
And the Seventh version of OS/2 raised into the air its bow of blue steel and
cried," It. Is. Done."  Around him lay Bill Gates and Microsoft apps.  Their
evil in this world at an end.
                                       Revelations of InfoWorld, Oct 11 1994

'Another PIC user introduction'
1995\01\26@184928 by Tracy R. Reed

flavicon
face
On Thu, 26 Jan 1995, Paul Haas wrote:

> For your entertainment the hottub is at:
>   http://hamjudo.com/cgi-bin/hottub
> The refrigerator is at:
>   http://hamjudo.com/cgi-bin/refrigerator

Hahahahahahahaha!!!! That's great! Sorry to hear about the rubber duckie,
I know it must have been quite a blow. What a gratuitous use of
electronics. :) Perhaps I will be able to set up something like this
someday. Your setup ranks right up there with the coke machine at MIT and
the coffee pot in some guys office at some place I cannot remember at the
moment. I'm gonna add a link to your appliances from my homepage. :)
There's only one thing missing...a camera on the hottub to show us what
(or who) is going on there! :)

1995\01\26@185756 by Robert Dale Bourque

picon face
Hello everone,

My name is Robert Bourque, and I am a senior EE student at the
University of Maryland.  My introduction to PIC's was through my
senior project, which is to design a 50 MHz digital scope.
We (there are 5 in the group) used a PIC for the PC-scope communication
and to setup the various components on the board prior to each
memory-capture period (which is controlled by a MACH).

My main responsibility in the project has been the PIC programming,
as well as some of the CAD layout.

I have co-op'ed with General Dynamics and also with TeleDanmark, the
Danish telecomm.  I am now taking my last class at night, and finishing
the scope project in my spare time.  I still have my student job on
campus (office gopher) but am really interested in finding a full-time
engineering job doing hardware/software related to realtime control, etc.

I am quite interested in the robotics applications of PIC's too.

'General Information on PIC's'
1995\01\31@095237 by Martin McCormick

flavicon
face
       Is there anything similar to a frequently asked questions list
concerning PIC's?  I hear these chips described as reduced instruction set
devices.  As one who has written assembly code for the 6502, 68HC11, and 8086,
what does this actually mean?
       How many instructions per second can the garden-variety PIC's execute?

       It seems that one good possible use for one of these devices would
be to give a second life to a cast-off infrared remote control.  One could
feed the proprietary data stream from the remote to a PIC and program the
PIC to convert this format into ASCII or whatever to allow one to add remote
control capabilities to a project.  In order to do this well, the PIC would
need to have shift and test capabilities and other such bit-wise operations
so that one could build data frames.

       Finally, I saw a project in "QST" magazine which used a PIC1654
as a Morse Code generator.  The device had a clock composed of a RC timing
circuit so that one could vary the speed by changing the R component.  Can
these devices also run off of a crystal or an external timing signal derived
from a crystal?
Thank you for any and all tidbits of information.

Martin McCormick WB5AGZ   Stillwater, OK
OSU Center for Computing and Information Services Data Communications Group

'Is PICLIST OK?'
1995\01\31@095908 by John S. Kallend

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face
I sent a message to PICLIST last week, and it prompted an automated
response as if i had sent it to LISTSERV (that is, each line was
treated as a LISTSERV command). I also stopped receiving PIC mail
about the same time.

jk

1995\01\31@103526 by Derrick Early

flavicon
picon face
> I sent a message to PICLIST last week, and it prompted an automated
> response as if i had sent it to LISTSERV (that is, each line was
> treated as a LISTSERV command). I also stopped receiving PIC mail
> about the same time.

Yep, I had the same experience.

Yours,

Derrick Early
early.....spamfinite.nrl.navy.mil

1995\01\31@125554 by tom

flavicon
picon face
> I sent a message to PICLIST last week, and it prompted an automated
> response as if i had sent it to LISTSERV (that is, each line was
> treated as a LISTSERV command). I also stopped receiving PIC mail
> about the same time.

I hate doing this but,  ME TOO !

Did anyone see my ramblings about the FAQ ?
__
  TAK

'Another PIC user intro'
1995\01\31@130633 by holster

flavicon
face
I tried sending this last week, but it didn't get out.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Gee, I guess there was somebody home after all!  Now to let you know who
I am.

My name is Dan Houlton.  I got my BA in CS from UofM a little over a year
ago and have since been working as a Software Engineer for General Dynamics
in the Detroit, MI area.  Some of my interests are motorcycling and flying RC
airplanes.  I've only recently become aware of PIC controllers and thought
it would be pretty fun to play around with, and since I like flying (not
repairing) RC, I thought I'd tinker with a wing leveler or autopilot.  It
seems to be a pretty tall order though, the more I research it.  The basic
idea is to use a PIC, a gyro (probably from a model helicopter), and maybe
an altimiter to control attitude and (maybe) altitude.

I got copies of Microchip's Data and Embedded Controller Handbooks to help
me decide what to use and was thinking of getting the PICStart package they
have.  I know Motorola 68030 assembly and I'm sure I could pic up PIC, but
I'm a C programmer at heart, so if anybody knows of any good cross compilers,
please let me know.

I think I'll get the the book "The PIC Source Book" mentioned in the FAQ, but
I'd really like to get "A Beginners Guide to the Microchip PIC".   This is
the one printed in the UK, and I haven't been able to find it here in the US.

So that's me.  I noticed some others were dealing with RC as well.  If any-
one has any advice about what to use, how to use it, or where to look for
more info please let me know.  I'd really like some US sources for the book
I mentioned above.  Who knows?  I might actually get to the point where I'm
saving more airplanes than I crash (that's a nasty habit of mine 8-(  ).


--Dan


'Hello PicList!'
1995\02\02@151132 by igel Cartwright
flavicon
face
       Seeing as everyone seems to be saying hello...
       My name is Nigel Cartwright, and I live and work near Birmingham,
England. (Are there any PIC users nearby?...). I run a small industrial
model making company and use PICs for timing etc in dispalys and models, as
well as on the hobby side at home - mainly interfaces to Macs etc.

       Regards



<===========Nigel Cartwright===========>
<==== KILLspamn.cartwrightspam_OUTspamauntie.bbcnc.org.uk ====>

'Is PICLIST hearing _me_ ???'
1995\02\03@005007 by tom

flavicon
picon face
Before total paranoia sets in, Is anyone receiving my postings to the list ?
I've tried twice to ask questions about the FAQ and received NO replies via the
list.
Am I "getting out" ? (or in, depending on your POV )

--
       Tom (the FAQ is ready) Kellett.

1995\02\04@202012 by tom

flavicon
picon face
Thanks to all who replied to sooth my fevered brow.

The PIC FAQ is being posted to the list, even as I type.

The consensus is to stay with ascii at present.

Your mission, (should you choose to accept), is to proof-read, fact-check and
generally pick holes in it.
You have until midnight [GMT] on monday 6th Feb to report.
[short time-scale I know but the list hiccough threw me off track]
__
  TAK

'Advertisements on the PICLIST'
1995\02\04@234153 by jory bell

face
flavicon
face
Andrew Warren sent me email asking:

>Was I out of line sending that message about Lance Walley's "Surplus.txt
>as promised" message?  Please clarify the list's policy regarding this
>type of "SALE!!  THIS MONTH ONLY!!!" advertising.

I responded as follows:

{Quote hidden}

1995\02\05@005442 by Brian Lane

flavicon
face
On Sat, 4 Feb 1995, jory bell wrote:

> Andrew Warren sent me email asking:
>
> >Was I out of line sending that message about Lance Walley's "Surplus.txt
> >as promised" message?  Please clarify the list's policy regarding this
> >type of "SALE!!  THIS MONTH ONLY!!!" advertising.
>

  [chop... chop....]

 Well I guess I'll wade in here. First an introduction. I am currently
employed as a microprocessor programmer for a consultant in Washington
State, up near Mt. Rainier. We mostly do controllers for Ship to Shore HF
radios, and handheld VHF radios using Motorola 68HCxx parts. I use PICs
in my home projects(built a distinctive ring switcher). I am also working
on a B.S. EET degree at the local community college, and preparing to set
up a limited Internet Provider/BBS with my Linux box.

OK, as to commercialism on the list I think it has a place when it is
in response to someone's question. BUT just posting announcements of
commercial products 'Really Bugs Me' I personally don't use any of
Parallax's products, and am not interested in them. I see their ads in
CCI and I believe that's all the exposure I want.

If Lance got requests for information from list subscribers, he should
be emailing them directly instead of thru the list. In my opinion the
list should be for the discussion of the technical aspects of using the
PIC processors, not as a target for marketing types(not that I am
accusing Lance of 'targeting' the list).

    Brian

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Everyone is a prisoner holding their own key." | Chaos Labs (360)569-2911
 http://nyx10.cs.du.edu:8001/~blane/home.html   |   Electronics/uP files
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1995\02\05@090701 by tom

flavicon
picon face
Brian Lane <spam_OUTblanespamTakeThisOuTnyx10.cs.du.edu> Wrote:
> On Sat, 4 Feb 1995, jory bell wrote:
> > Andrew Warren sent me email asking:
> >
> > >Was I out of line sending that message about Lance Walley's "Surplus.txt
> > >as promised" message?  Please clarify the list's policy regarding this
> > >type of "SALE!!  THIS MONTH ONLY!!!" advertising.
> >
>
>    [chop... chop....]
>
>Hack<

>  If Lance got requests for information from list subscribers, he should
> be emailing them directly instead of thru the list.

I hold no brief for Lance, but in fairness it looked like a cock-up to me.:)

The list-address was left in by accident ?

> In my opinion the list should be for the discussion of the technical aspects
> of using the PIC processors, not as a target for marketing types(not that I
> am accusing Lance of 'targeting' the list).
Fine dividing line to tread here IMO.

I'll wait to see Lance's grovelling apology :) :) :)
__
  TAK

1995\02\05@094507 by Timothy McDonough DIAL UP1

flavicon
face
FWIW, I think the message in question from Lance should have been to the
effect that they had decided to have a sale on the discontinued tools and
people should ftp the file from Parallax if interested.

Posting it only once would have been good too, although I suspect the
multiple posts were a technical glitch and not intentional.

Tim McDonough -- .....timmed.....spamRemoveMEcencom.net

On Sat, 4 Feb 1995, jory bell wrote:

> Andrew Warren sent me email asking:
>
> >Was I out of line sending that message about Lance Walley's "Surplus.txt
> >as promised" message?  Please clarify the list's policy regarding this
> >type of "SALE!!  THIS MONTH ONLY!!!" advertising.
>
[snip]

> >
> >Were you around when Lance first came on the list a couple months ago? He
> >posted some (in my opinion) spam, and I called him on it in an exchange
> >posted to the list (which I would be happy to forward to you). He promptly
> >apologized for his possible misdeeds, but many members of the list were
> >fairly supportive of his posting and a relatively high degree of general
> >commercialism (much to my chagrin).

'power MOSFET that can be switched by PIC'
1995\02\05@134510 by Shane Trent

flavicon
face
>Can anyone recommend a readily available power MOSFET with low on
>resistance (<0.03 ohm) when directly driven from a PIC output (5 volt
>supply). I ordered what looked like a promising device from Digi-key,
>only to find out that it was "vapor-ware". Current capacity required
>is modest, but must have low Ron.  Thanks
>
>jk

If you can get +12V somewhere you can switch MOSFETS with the PIC.  Just
connect the PIC output pin to the MOSFET gate and pull the gate to 12V with
a 10k or so resistor, larger means slower response when turning on.  You
may want to put a small, 500 ohms or so, between the PIC and MOSFET gate.
This is to limit the short current spikes that may occur when discharging
the gate capacitance of the MOSFET.  Now you can turn the MOSFET on my
making the PIC pin an INPUT, this should put the pin into a high impedance
state, letting the MOSFET gate be pulled high by the 10k resistor.  To turn
the MOSFET off, just make the pin an output and drive it low, pulling the
MOSFET gate to ground.

Hope this help,
-shane

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Shane Trent                    Diamond Deposition and Analysis Laboratory
NCSU Box 7919                              Internet: spam_OUTsdtrentTakeThisOuTspamEraseMEmte.ncsu.edu
1001 Capability Drive                            Voice:    (919) 515-7083
Raleigh, NC  27695-7919                          Fax:      (919) 515-6037
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

1995\02\05@192448 by Henry Carl Ott

picon face
On         Sun, 5 Feb 1995 Shane Trent <EraseMEsdtrentspamBeGonespamKILLspamMAT.MTE.NCSU.EDU> said:


>>Can anyone recommend a readily available power MOSFET with low on
>>resistance (<0.03 ohm) when directly driven from a PIC output (5 volt
>>supply). I ordered what looked like a promising device from Digi-key,
>>only to find out that it was "vapor-ware". Current capacity required
>>is modest, but must have low Ron.  Thanks
>>
>>jk
>
>If you can get +12V somewhere you can switch MOSFETS with the PIC.  Just
>connect the PIC output pin to the MOSFET gate and pull the gate to 12V
with a
>10k or so resistor, larger means slower response when turning on.  You may
want
>to put a small, 500 ohms or so, between the PIC and MOSFET gate. This is
to
>limit the short current spikes that may occur when discharging the gate
>capacitance of the MOSFET.  Now you can turn the MOSFET on my making the
PIC
>pin an INPUT, this should put the pin into a high impedance state, letting
the
>MOSFET gate be pulled high by the 10k resistor.  To turn the MOSFET off,
just
>make the pin an output and drive it low, pulling the MOSFET gate to
ground.
>
>Hope this help,
>-shane

 You might have a problem with this. Every i/o pin on a pic has protection
diodes
to both VSS and VDD. This limits the pin voltage to about 5.6 volts (if
vdd=5v).
 I suppose you could get around this with yet another diode, but now it's
getting
a bit more complicated then the original request.


later .......

carl

Henry Carl Ott       N2RVQ
RemoveMEcarlspamBeGonespamspampipeline.com
------------------------------------------------
No wife, no horse, no spell checker.
------------------------------------------------

'C-Compiler vs. Macro assembler (for small PIC:s)'
1995\02\06@035443 by Conny Andersson

picon face
I have read the messages about various "big machine" c-compilers which may be
portable to pic:s. I must say that there is no reason to program a 0,5k to 4k
microprocessor using such a compiler. It's probably better to use the powerful
macro features in MPASM to make small code fragments and make code writing
easier.

I usually start a project by writing special macros for input and output such as
TSW SkipON and TSW SkipOFF. This macro tests input from a port pin (Tilt Switch
connected) and if this input is ON the next instruction is skipped. If you need
to change pin function, just edit the macros.
I also have a couple of macros for conditional jumps (test for carry, zero, ...)

If we are talking about the 16C42 when used in microprocessor mode you might
want a C-compiler ... (it takes time to write 64k of assembler instructions).

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Conny Andersson / LiTH

'Advertisements on the PICLIST'
1995\02\06@082809 by Ran Talbott

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face
>FWIW, I think the message in question from Lance should have been to the
>effect that they had decided to have a sale on the discontinued tools and
>people should ftp the file from Parallax if interested.

I agree.  Tim's comments are along the lines of the ones I made a while back
on sci.electronics when someone from National Semi was asking how vendors
should use the net.  The philosophy I suggested then was to broadcast only
"invitations to contact" (e.g.,  announcements of WWW or ftp site openings),
not the information itself.

In addition to Tim's recommendation,  I'd suggest three other criteria for
"commercial" postings to the list:

  1. That they be *directly* PIC-related.  I.e.,  it's okay to annouce a new
     PIC cross-assembler,  but not a "hot deal" on hard disks on the grounds
     that "PIC developers use machines with hard disks for compiling".
  2. That the info not be readily-available in the press.  E.g.,  Parallax
     announcing a sale on surplus equipment would be okay,  but not
     using the list to advertise their "hobbyist special" programmer,
     because that's part of their regular advertising.
  3. The information has to be "incomplete":  no snail mail addresses,
     no phone numbers,  no exact prices.  That would tend to (though not
     always,  of course) require email contact to make any sales,  which
     would discourage people from trying to use the list as an ad medium.

I think this makes a fairly good compromise that benefits all concerned,
while minimizing annoyance and noise.

Ran

'power MOSFET that can be switched by PIC'
1995\02\06@101311 by Volkmar Gross

flavicon
face
"John S. Kallend" <@spam@METMKALLENDspamspamMINNA.ACC.IIT.EDU> wrote on
>Subject: power MOSFET that can be switched by PIC
>
>Can anyone recommend a readily available power MOSFET with low on
>resistance (<0.03 ohm) when directly driven from a PIC output (5 volt
>supply). I ordered what looked like a promising device from Digi-key,
>only to find out that it was "vapor-ware". Current capacity required
>is modest, but must have low Ron.  Thanks

Hi John,

Harris makes N-Channel Logic Level Power FETs (MegaFETs). Their device
RFP50N05L has rDS(ON)= 0.027 Ohms at VGS=4V. Is that short enough for your
circuit?

Kind regards,   Volkmar

---
Volkmar Gross, Softwork Telematica, Bremen, Germany (Fone&Phax: +49 421 74434)
>>>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
  Planck's quantum is the calorimetric equivalent of a Baud (Max Demon)

1995\02\07@020432 by Chuck McManis

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face
I recently bought some IRLZ44's from Digikey. They have an Rds of .028 ohms.
and are "logic level". They were in stock and arrived in three days. What
were you looking for?
--Chuck

'C compilers and PICs'
1995\02\07@145903 by Chuck McManis

flavicon
face
It seems some people mistakenly believe that C is a high level language :-)
In fact in the hands of an experienced programmer C can be a structured
assembler. That is the derogatory term for it that most structured language
bigots (Pascal, M2, etc) use. Take for example a routine to toggle a bit
on and off. If you code it:

#define PORTB *((char *)(0x6))
main() {
       while (1) {
               PORTB ^= 1;
       }

And what you get is nearly identical to what you would write by hand. Now
you could code it "stupidly" as in:

void poke(a, b) {
       *(char *)a = b;
}

main() {
       char    a;

       a = 1;
       while (1) {
               if (a == 1) {
                       poke(6, 1);
                       a = 0;
               } else {
                       poke(6, 0);
                       a = 1;
               }
       }
}

You would take up lots of instructions and it would look as if C was a
very inefficient language to write in.

Basically C can be written like assembler. And people who use C in embedded
applications use it that way. Unfortunately most programming texts that use
C, teach it as though it is a much more sophisticated language :-). C was
written originally as a "structured assembler" for the PDP-11, so that folks
at Bell Labs could write the UNIX system code easily and recognize what was
going on just by looking at what they had written. This is a step up from
raw assembler and the BLISS compiler was either non-existant or not powerful
enough to do the same sort of thing.

The bottom line is that it makes perfect sense to have a C compiler for
PIC chips. However, this doesn't mean that you should expect to write anything
more complicated than you currently can, just that the source to what you
write will be easier to read later. Also, in my opinion, if you are on the
absolute edge of performance or space requirements, you'll probably end up
in assembler anyway.

--Chuck

'Simple Pascal Compiler for PIC'
1995\02\07@163233 by Ian Munro

picon face
Dear all,

As there has been a lot of interest in C compilers for the PIC, I
thought people might be interested in my current attempt at a Pascal
compiler for the 16C84.
The compiler needs ms windose and can successfully compile
simple pascal programs. It produces hex files with which i've
programmed a 16C84 (and it acutally worked!).
The compiler is still very much in the early stages of development,
but if anyone wants to get it then the src and exe's then they
are ftpable at dragon.herts.ac.uk:/pub/PIC/PICDEV.
I would be interested to hear if people think it is worth carrying on
with or if it's a waste of time and space.

Ian




******************************************************************************
Ian Munro - Electronic Engineering
University of Hertforshire, College Lane,
Hatfield, Hertforshire.
England
Email:   TakeThisOuTI.MunroKILLspamspam@spam@herts.ac.uk
            .....IanRemoveMEspamdragon.herts.ac.uk
Tel:  +44(0) 1707 284160
******************************************************************************

'Bug with TO (TimeOut) flag in PIC16C5X'
1995\02\22@172834 by Michael Brinks

flavicon
face
Hi PIC users !

Here is, as promised, the info I have on the TO flag bug.

Note that the following is based on my experience only, so it may
be that I've misunderstood something. Therefore I would like to
here from anyone who can confirm or deny that this problem exists.

The story: In July 1994 I was working on a project that involved
PIC16C57. The electro-magnetic working environment for the PIC's
was pretty nasty -- to say at least, so I used the Watch dog to
catch any program run-aways.
The PIC's (8 of them) were controlled from a PC through a serial
connection. If one of the PIC's didn't respond to a request from
the PC, then the PC would reset the PIC's via the MCLR pin -- an
extra safety precaution.
The initialization code in the PIC's used the TO (TimeOut) bit in
the Status register to determine if a reset was caused by Watch dog
time-out or by a MCLR/power-up reset.

I use the CLRWDT instruction in the program, this instruction sets
the TO bit to "1", so after a MCLR reset the TO bit should be "1",
since a MCLR doesn't affect the TO bit (according to the manual).

However, I noticed that when the PC did a MCLR reset of the PIC's,
some of them would execute the power-up reset routine (as
expected), while others executed the watch-dog time out reset
routine. When I repeated the MCLR pulse, the pattern seemed to be
random, that is, at one time a PIC would do a power-up reset, the
next time a time-out reset...
The power-up/time-out ratio appeared to be around 50/50.
Very strange I thought -- must be a software bug... So I wrote a
short program that simply copied the TO bit to an output port
connected to a LED. When the PIC's were reset by MCLR, some of the
LED's turned on and some off - in other words: the same problem.

Well, maybe it's a hardware problem then ? I took a small PCB, put
on a PIC, a crystal, 8 LED's and a MCLR reset key. Wrote a program
that shifted the TO bit into a register, then copied the register to
the port, so that the LED's would show the status of the TO flag
after the last 8 resets.
After power up, the pattern on the LED's shifted one position each
time I did a MCLR reset or provoked a WDT time-out by stopping the
oscillator. The value shifted in after a WDT time-out was always
"0" (as expected) and the first TO bit shifted in after power-up
was always "1" (also as documented in the manual).
But after a MCLR reset the TO bit had an apparently random value :((

I discovered that the problem ONLY occurres when the prescaler is
assigned to the RTCC. When assigned to the WDT (even if set to 1:1)
then the TO bit isn't affected by MCLR reset.

I tried using different oscillator configurations and speeds -
didn't affect the problem.

Next I tried different supply voltages - no influence.

Then I disabled the Watch dog by blowing the WDT fuse - and I still
got random 1's and 0's in the TO bit !!!
Note that when the watch dog timer is disabled, then the TO bit
should *NEVER* be "0", since a watch dog time-out is the only event
that can set the TO bit to "0" (according to the manual).

I tested different devices. No difference between the EPROM / OTP
parts I tested.
Besides the 16C57's, the 16C55's also have the bug. 16C54 and 16C56
probably also, since they have the same core as 16C57, but I haven't
tested.
The 16C58A did not have the bug (Strange - since it's the same
core as the other 16C5X's ?  - or maybe not ? ).
The PIC16C71 does not have the bug. My guess is that 16C84, 16C64
and 16C74 work fine, since their core is based on '71, but I
haven't tested.


Well, what did I do ?
After discussing the problem with the local distributor (exatec),
I send the source code to them and later the hardware too. They
didn't come up with anything, so they passed the code/hardware to
Microchip and told me that "They (Microchip) are looking into my
problem".
I guess they look very carefully, because they have been looking for
more than 6 months now.


As stated in the beginning, I'm very interested in hearing from
anyone that have had the same or similar problems -- and perhaps
solved them ?
For the time being, my solution is simply not to use PIC16C54-57
in any new designs, where I need to determine the cause of reset.
This is not what I would call a satisfactory solution to the problem.


To summarize: The TO bug affects an application when:
* The TO flag is checked after reset and
* The reset may be caused by MCLR and
* The prescaler is assigned to RTCC and
* PIC16C54-57 is used


I hope that someone on the PICLIST can help me with this problem
- or, at least, that this information can help you from running
into a similar problem in future designs.


Michael Brinks

1995\02\23@022154 by Andrew Warren

face
flavicon
face
Michael Brinks (KILLspammbrinksspamTakeThisOuTeinstein.ot.dk) wrote:

>For the time being, my solution is simply not to use PIC16C54-57
>in any new designs, where I need to determine the cause of reset.
>This is not what I would call a satisfactory solution to the problem.

Michael:

If you have the registers to spare, you may want to try simply loading a
few (four of them, perhaps) with known values.  Check the contents of
those registers on reset.  If they contain the proper values, you can
assume that the PIC was reset via MCLR.  If they don't, assume that the
PIC was just powered up.

-Andy


--
Andrew Warren - TakeThisOuTfastfwdspamspam_OUTix.netcom.com
Fast Forward Engineering, Vista, California

'WWW Pic Page'
1995\02\23@090712 by Errington A

flavicon
face
Hi all,

I am setting up a PIC page on our WWW server, with information about my own
experience with PICs, together with links to related web pages.  This is a
personal initiative, and I would like to know the sort of things that may be
of interest to people, and also if you know of any links to useful PIC pages
(I have put links to Microchip's Home Page and Parallax).

I will also use this page to distribute my Visual Basic program which
downloads object code to the PIC16C84 (although it isn't there yet as I have
some copyright problems to overcome)

If there are no other PIC pages then that makes me the first, so hopefully
everyone will point to me, but this means I need something interesting to
put there!

My home page is at:

http://www.lancs.ac.uk/people/cpaame/cpaame.htm

my PIC page can be accessed from there or directly at:

http://www.lancs.ac.uk/people/cpaame/pic/pic.htm

Both pages are 'under construction' and may include references to things
that don't exist, however they've only been there for 2 days, so no flames
please!

Andy
--
Andrew M. Errington
PC Consultant
Lancaster University
RemoveMEa.erringtonspamspamSTOPspamlancaster.ac.uk
Tel: +44 1524 592678
Fax: +44 1524 844011

'Bug with TO (TimeOut) flag in PIC16C5X'
1995\02\24@035818 by Michael Brinks

flavicon
face
Hi Andy

You wrote:
> If you have the registers to spare, you may want to try simply loading a
> few (four of them, perhaps) with known values.  Check the contents of
> those registers on reset.  If they contain the proper values, you can
> assume that the PIC was reset via MCLR.  If they don't, assume that the
> PIC was just powered up.

Yes, useful tip for checking if reset was caused by power-up or
by MCLR reset.
However the subject were Watch Dog Timeout reset vs. MCLR reset.

According to the manual, the TO bit should indicate whether a
Watch dog timeout has occurred. But under some circumstances the
TO bit does NOT have the correct value. That is the problem.


  Michael

1995\02\24@205250 by Andrew Warren

face
flavicon
face
Michael Brinks (.....mbrinksEraseMEspameinstein.ot.dk) wrote:

>Yes, useful tip for checking if reset was caused by power-up or
>by MCLR reset.
>However the subject were Watch Dog Timeout reset vs. MCLR reset.

Michael:

Sorry... Alzheimer's Disease must be setting in.

-Andy


--
Andrew Warren - spamBeGonefastfwdspamRemoveMEix.netcom.com
Fast Forward Engineering, Vista, California


'My PIC16C54 works unreliably'
1995\04\02@045838 by stephnss
flavicon
face
I my recent design, I have 16 bright leds and they need a lot of current. If I
switch them very fast (2kHz or so) the PIC resets. It happens after some time
and it seems to be a problem with the power supply to the PIC. If I insert a
capacitor in parallell, the problem goes away until I raise the supply current
even more to the leds (I use buffers to control the leds so the PIC doesn't need
that much current).



How much did you raise the LED current?
How are you raising the supply current to the LED's?
What device is the buffer for the LED's?
Describe the trace lengths/locations of the supply, PIC, buffer & LED's?
What are the V and I spec's for the supply, PIC, LED's & buffer?
How much did you increase the filter cap?

'Blew up my PICSTART 16B last night.'
1995\04\03@093807 by Paul Greenwood

flavicon
face
> Hmmm, you mean with the pins sticking up in the air? :)  I have done it
> hundreds of times w/o any problems

VERY funny!!!

> Go down to altex or MC Howards(both just south of IBM) and get a new
> 4066BE desolder the old one and replace it.  I have had one go bad on me
> too(if that is in fact what yours is).  Check the crystal and make sure
> it is osc'ing.  Check the 7805 and make sure it is regulating to 5V and
> not something like 20.

So, what is a 4066?  I don't remember even seeing it on the board.  If it was
on the board, it wasn't hot.  Do you remember the scenerio with yours?  Did
the 4066 get hot on you?

> Zerox the invoice.  Change the data to 9 months ago by cutting out
> numbers with an exacto knife.  Paste them on the xroxed invoice.  Xerox
> again.  Cool! now its not a year old :)

:)  Yeah, yeah!

--

           -- Paul Greenwood --  (.....pabloEraseMEspamaustin.ibm.com)

But scientists, who ought to know
Assure us that it must be so.
Oh, let us never, never doubt
What nobody is sure about.
               -- Hilaire Belloc

'My PIC16C54 works unreliably'
1995\04\03@113222 by Conny Andersson

picon face
I wrote ...

> I my recent design, I have 16 bright leds and they need a lot of current. If I
> switch them very fast (2kHz or so) the PIC resets. It happens after some time
> and it seems to be a problem with the power supply to the PIC. If I insert a
> capacitor in parallell, the problem goes away until I raise the supply current
> even more to the leds (I use buffers to control the leds so the PIC doesn't
need
> that much current).

Scott Stephens wrote ...

> How much did you raise the LED current?
> How are you raising the supply current to the LED's?
> What device is the buffer for the LED's?
> Describe the trace lengths/locations of the supply, PIC, buffer & LED's?
> What are the V and I spec's for the supply, PIC, LED's & buffer?
> How much did you increase the filter cap?

The problem is that I don't want sixteen resistors on my board so I use
"built in" current limiting in two 74HC244:s. Yesterday I checked the
voltage drop over the PIC with my osc. and deltaV = 2V (too much I guess).
The simplest solution to this was to place a couple of diodes from
V+ to Vdd of the 74HC244 and now it works with deltaV = 0.2V (but with
a little less power output from the leds.)
-----------------------
Conny Andersson / LiTH

'(Fwd) FS: PICSTART development system for Microchi'
1995\04\03@170644 by Henry Carl Ott

picon face
I remember somebody was looking for a picstart.
Saw this in sci.electronics and thought I'd repost it.

In sci.electronics Dave Fors said:
 FOR SALE:  Microchip's PICSTART-16B1 development system.

Microchip's PICSTART-16B1 development system provides design engineers a
fast, easy and very
low-cost way to begin evaluation and code developmenbt of PIC
microcontroller products.  The
PICSTART-16B1 comes complete with:
   assembler and simulator software
   programmer board
   PIC16CXX product samples
   supports the full range of PIC16C54/C55/C56/C57, PIC16C71 and PIC16C8
products
   90-250VAC - 50/60 Hz power supply
   RS-232 cable
   Assembler Manual
   Simulator Manual.

System documentation includes Microchip's new Embedded Control Application
Handbook and the
Microchip Product Data Book.  The PICSTART-16B1 programmer board accepts
18- and 28-lead
PIC16CXX devices.  System software includes MPALC Assembler, MPSIM
Simulator and
programmer software to read and program all PIC16CXX products.  MPALC is a
PC hosted
symbolic cross assembler used to convert source code into object code.
MPSIM is a very efficient
discrete event software simulator designed to imitate the operation of all
PIC16CXX
microcontrollers.

Digi-Key price $195.  Your price $125 shipping within USA included.
(PICSTART never taken out
of box or used).  I'm selling it because I got into computer servicing
instead of hardware design.

Dave Fors
spamforsspam_OUTspam@spam@rio.com


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------
later .......

carl

Henry Carl Ott       N2RVQ
spamcarl@spam@spamSTOPspampipeline.com
------------------------------------------------
No wife, no horse, no spell checker.
------------------------------------------------

'LOTS of questions! (new PIC user)'
1995\04\03@222042 by Jeff Fisher

flavicon
face
I'm pretty new to PICs.  In fact, I don't even have any yet.  But, from
reading the DigiKey catalog they look like the best microcontroller I've
seen.  Up until this point I've been strictly using 68hc11s.  Due to
Motorola's lack of supply, I'm forced to switch over to something I can
buy, when I want to buy.  Back to the questions:

1) I noticed a particular kind of PIC, the PIC17C42 allows 64k x 16
addressable program space. Is there a C compiler for this chip?  Why aren't
these chips listed in quantity in the DigiKey catalog?  Are they not
available in high qty.?

2) For my applications I'll need a A/D converter.  I see the 16C71 series
support this, but I need a chip with more I/O lines, so I guess I'll use a
16C64 with a serial interfaced A/D converter.  Has anyone done this
already?  Is it very tricky?

3) Is there a way to simulate a RS232 port with a PIC along with a MAX232?
I'm used the 68hc11's built in UART; I've read something about "simulating"
asynchronous serial communications by using a timer, does this actually
work?

4) Whats the deal with the MTA series?  I see there is a $500 development
kit which seems to be centered around battery charging.  Is this chip
intended for some kind of intelligent battery charging systems?

5) Ok, one last question!  This friday I will lay out the cash and buy some
sort of development board.  Could someone please make a suggestion?  I'll
initially be developing with the 16C64 (I think) and it looks like there
are 2 options: The paralax programmer with the 40 pin ZIP adapter, or
Microchip's own PICSTART kit.  Which kit is better?

'My PIC16C54 works unreliably'
1995\04\04@012759 by Don Lekei

picon face
It seems to be a common problem to not provide sufficient bypassing on PIC's
because they "use negligable current". There are two effects that happen when
you under-bypass a part like the PIC because they are CMOS (this is not new
btw., anyone remember the COSMAC 1802).

1) CMOS switches have low impedance, so when switching low impedance (or worse
yet capacitive) loads, if your PIC has insufficient bypass the power supply,
traces, etc. take a while (several nanoseconds) to catch up. The dip in voltage
can cause reset.

2) You should expect some very short pulses of high current when switching
capacitive or low impedance loads. This is because the output gates may turn
on/off asymetricly under adverse load conditions, causing a momentary current
path from VDD to VSS.

Proper bypasing with capacitors of various characteristics (and don't forget
proper termination of the reset line) is often a cure for this bizarre behavior.

As Scotty was so fond of saying:
"Ya canna change tha lawhz af phyzzicss, Caaptain"

- Don Lekei

PS. Of course I could be wrong, and this whole thing is a "not initializing all
registers" thing.

'communication PIC-PC via 1 line (I say : why compl'
1995\04\04@080426 by Conny Andersson

picon face
Hello Siegfried

Let me guess ... you have only one pin available for the serial transfer?
If you have two or more pins there's no point in using only one pin (except
for the fun of it of course).

Have you tried to make one port pin work as two port pins?
Let's say you need a serial input line and input from a photodetector.
If these two tasks never interfere with each other, then you can use one
input pin to read two devices. If you have this in mind while constructing
the hardware, then there's no problem. (I don't know how often you can
use a solution like this, but I did in a recent design.)

photodetector, active low  ---------------------+
                                               |
                                              __
                                              /\   <-- DIODE (low Vf)
                                              --
serial input line, active low ---|RESISTOR|-----+----------- PIC port pin

-----------------------
Conny Andersson / LiTH


{Quote hidden}

1995\04\04@172741 by David B. Thomas

flavicon
face
I see what you're trying to do, and thanks to the fact that PC hardware
is relatively standard, you can be reasonably sure that, if you get it to
work, it will work on other machines.

Another thought, though.  If you have more lines available on the PIC end
of things, you can do other sneaky things to get data across without
disturbing the printer.

If you're willing to disable transmitting to the PIC while the printer is
actually in current use, you can use as many data lines from the printer
port as you like, and use some other line (auto-feed, printer ID,
whatever) as a strobe.  Or use D0-D6 for data, and D7 as a strobe.  As
long as you never toggle the real strobe line, the printer will ignore any
changes on the other lines.  (This approach will eliminate your precise
timing requirements, too!)

You'll probably have to invent a "magic cookie" wakeup sequence, though,
to make sure your device isn't accidentally triggered by ordinary
printouts.  I think if you use an otherwise-unused line as a strobe, or
concoct a sufficiently weird wakeup sequence, you should be fine.

David
--
Their address sums up their attitude: One Microsoft Way
       http://www.rt66.com/dthomas/

'Programming && PIC vs. HC11'
1995\04\26@135401 by Ken Lierman

flavicon
face
Hello all,

I have a couple of questions regarding the PIC....

1) Not to start a religious debate or anything, but... Is there anyone out there
who has used both the HC11 and the PIC and would be willing to share their
experiences with both?

2) From the FAQ, it seems that a programmer can be made simply for the 16C84,
but there are no references to programmers for other parts. Are there any
available without dropping $200? If so, where can I get more info?

3) How do you get out of digest mode?  I had to unsubscribe and resubscribe!

TIA!!!

Kenneth Lierman

'FP package for pics, 16C74'
1995\04\27@134555 by Markus Imhof

flavicon
face
>I have looked at the FP package for the pics from the MC BBS. It only
>supports basic FP stuff.  Is there any place with a FP package that
>supports trig, log, etc...
>
>Is there a C that has FP built in?
>
>Thanks
>
>Mark

I don't know about the above, but check out an algorithm called CORDIC. It
provides a set of fixed-point trigonometric functions in an iterative
algorithm.
There are probably other references, I'm giving you the ones I've got
(Article plus references from that article):

Zahlenmuehle
Rafael Daliano, Raimund Perz
in elrad issue 3 1995, Heise Verlag, Hannover
p. 30

J.E. Volder
The CORDIC Trigonometric Computing Technique
IRE-EC 1959 (!)
p. 330

J.S. Walther
A unified algorithm for elementary functions
Spring Joint Computer Conference (SJCC) 1971
p. 379

Hope this helps a bit. I thought it is quite interesting. This algorithm
can deliver sin, cos, atan, sinh, cosh, atanh, division with nothing more
than a few add, multiply and shift operations.

Bye
 Markus


'Yet another PIC programmer'
1995\05\01@153250 by David Tait
flavicon
face
A reference to interest UK hobbyists:

Robin Abbott, "PIC Programmer", Electronics Today International,
Vol 24, No. 6, pp 52-56, June 1995.

This article (to be continued next month) describes a simple PIC
programmer which connects to the serial port of a PC.  It uses two
voltage regulators, three transistors, a MAX232 and a pre-programmed
16C57 to provide a programmer capable of programming the PIC16C54, 55,
56, 57, 58 and any serial mode PIC including the PIC16C64, 71, 74 and
84.  The serial mode devices may also be programmed in-circuit using a
4-wire interface.  Cost: UKP 35 (around $55) including software. The
PCB pattern is reproduced 1-1 in the mag.

I guess ETI should be available in the USA.  If you can't find it
contact:

Wise Owl Worldwide Publications,
4314 West 238th Street,
Torrance,
CA 90505.

Tel: (310) 375 6258
Fax: (310) 375 0548

David
--
RemoveMEdavid.taitRemoveMEspamRemoveMEman.ac.uk

'New PIC devices'
1995\05\16@062053 by Martin Nilsson

picon face
Brian,

> By the way, it is my job to specify the new PIC devices.  So, if
> there's a PIC you want....
>
> Regards, Brian Boles.                         bbolesKILLspamspamspammicrochip.com

We would very much appreciate a 16C84 with the A/D converters put back, or
a 16C71 with EEPROM memory, if you like.

Recently Alex Baker from Microchip UK, told me that the 84 is in fact
selling very well, but despite this there were no plans for new EEPROM
devices (!). The argument was that industry is only interested in
EEPROM data memory and not in EEPROM program memory (so the latter
could be OTP or EPROM). My own impression from talking to PIC users in
industry and research is that we do find EEPROM useful for program
memory. One application is that the processor is first programmed with
a test routine. After the device has been tested, it is reprogrammed
in situ with the production software.  Even though EPROM could also be
used, these would almost certainly be much more expensive (ceramic
package, probably not surface mount).  I know an argument against
EEPROM is that it requires too much chip area, but surely this will
not be a problem as technology improves (and you are able to use your
new 0.6u process for the 16c84).

There is no PIC in your current 16Cxx(x) series that
integrates all of the features desirable for motor control.  If you
could fit the following in an 18-pin package, or at least a slimline
package, here is a priority list of what I would like to have:

1. Small slimline package and EEPROM memory (1k words is OK) (like 16C84)
2. A/D converters (like 16C71)
3. hardware I2C (like 16C64)
4. hardware PWM (like 16C64)

The above is very important. The following are good but not as important:
5. More registers and program memory.
6. D/A converter.

Looking forward to my new processor. Could you tell me when it will be
available? :-)

Cheers,

Martin Nilsson
Swedish Institute of Computer Science    E-mail: spam_OUTmn@spam@spamsics.se
Box 1263, S-164 28 Kista                 Fax: +46-8-751-7230
Sweden                                   Tel: +46-8-752-1574

1995\05\16@073125 by Brian Robinson

flavicon
face
>> By the way, it is my job to specify the new PIC devices.  So, if
>> there's a PIC you want....
>>
>> Regards, Brian Boles.                         TakeThisOuTbbolesspam_OUTspammicrochip.com

       My favourite new PICs would also be based on the EEPROM program
storage of the 16C84 because this makes development so much easier, and it
is cheap enough for small quantity production.  The list for additions, in
order of preference, is:

1. A 28 pin device (0.3inch DIP if possible) to give another 8 I/O pins
2. Bigger stack
3. Hardware I2C
4. More program memory
5. More RAM memory
6. Hardware PWM
7. Hardware A/D

       Perhaps new PICs could be brought out at a slightly faster rate,
when they are just based on previous building blocks, such as extra I/O
ports.

       Are they based on a modular internal design, like the Texas 370 family?

       Best wishes,
       Brian Robinson

::From::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
: Brian Robinson,                  _/_/_/    _/_/_/              Faraday A38 :
: Environmental Science Division, _/    _/  _/    _/                         :
: I.E.B.S.,                      _/_/_/    _/_/_/    Tel: +44 (0)1524 593922 :
: Lancaster University,         _/    _/  _/  _/     FAX: +44 (0)1524 593985 :
: Lancaster, LA1 4YQ, U.K.     _/_/_/    _/    _/ KILLspamB.Robinson.....spamTakeThisOuTlancaster.ac.uk :
:::::::::::::: http://es-sv1.lancs.ac.uk/people/teach/br.html ::::::::::::::::

'Forth for PIC? Cheap or PD C?'
1995\05\16@092217 by Albert J. Fahey

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In article <TakeThisOuT01HPRQ2R36B6B8IJGSEraseMEspamRemoveMEHAMLET.CALTECH.EDU>, Andrew Warren
<spam_OUTfastfwdRemoveMEspam.....IX.NETCOM.COM> says:
>
>Daniel Mahoney (spamdmahoneyKILLspamspamKILLspamnetcom.com) wrote:
>
>>Can anyone point me to a Forth cross-compiler that targets these
>>chips?
>
>There's a public-domain Forth on Microchip's BBS targeted for the
>17C42... If you can't find it, let me know in e-mail and I'll give you
>more specific directions to it.

What about C?  And/or Forth for the 16CXX stuff?
Byte Craft C is just way too expensive ... it's not
like it has a floating point package or something
really cool ...

Albert

'MY PIC Chip uses'
1995\05\16@155256 by mlk

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On Sat, 13 May 1995, Lee Holeva wrote:

> I everyone.  I just joined the PIC list and I'm looking forward to
> hearing about other people's use of MIcrochip PIC products.
>
..snip..

> I'm going to build the controller
> somewhat differently than what many people do.  Rather than simply
> bolting a single microcontroller board to the platform, I intend to
> decompose the controller into multiple PIC chips.  The PIC
> architecture seems to be ideal for this sort of thing.  I should end
> up with a variant of Brook's Subsumption Architecture.
>
..snip..

Lee,
       Sounds interesting.  I am near the end of an art/robotics
development (you heard right... my client is an artist who specializes
in technological art).  I use three 16C57s communicating serially to
control the input sensing, processing, and output control functions.  The
processing PIC is especially interesting.  I have implemented a neural
net which gives the piece the capability to learn from it's environment
and "recognize" previously learned environmental conditions.

       I am currently struggling with some mechanical construction hurdles
(I do bits not bolts) but the PIC stuff works well.  Good luck on your
project.

Martin Kirk
Arizona State University
spammlkspam_OUTspamasu.edu
(602) 263-9270

'MY PIC Chip uses (mechanical parts)'
1995\05\16@211506 by Albert J. Fahey

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In article <STOPspam01HQKU7MRVUQB86D6Hspam_OUTspamspamBeGoneHAMLET.CALTECH.EDU>, Adam Eberbach
<spam_OUTADAMspamspamBeGoneDATAPLEX.COM.AU> says:
>
>I'd like that catalog if you find the number, Albert.
>
>Adam Eberbach, R&D Software Engineer, Dataplex Pty. Ltd.

Folks,
       I couldn't find the PIC catalog, you can probably look them
up in the Thomas Guide.  I did find another company though ... the catalog
is a little old (1990) ... here is the info:

       Stock Drive Products
       2101 Jericho Turnpike
       New Hyde Park, NY 11040
       Phone: 516-328-3300
       FAX:   516-326-8827

Make sure to ask for the Master Catalog, it has frames and shafts, gears,
all sorts of stuff.

Albert

1995\05\17@010020 by R Duflon

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One source for neat mechanical gizmos (gears, couplimgs, belt and chain
drives) is Stock Drive Products, 2101 Jerico Turnpike, New Hyde Park, NY 11040
Phone (516)328-3300.  Ask for the latest edition of their "Handbook of Small
Standardized Components".  My copy is dated 1988 but I believe they're still
in business.

Another source is Small Parts Inc., 13980 NW 58TH Court, Miami Lakes FL 33014
Phone (800)220-4242.  They have more hardware and sheet and rod stock, and
also carry tubing and connectors for pneumatic and fluidic use.

Finally there's Herbach and Rademan, 18 Canal Street, Bristol, PA 19007, Phone
(215)788-5583.  Mostly surplus electro-mechanical, they seem to like motors
and drive parts, air driven stuff, and power supplies.  Newsprint catalog
makes good reading.

Ray
EraseMErduflonspamKILLspamcup.portal.com

'Forth for PIC? - 16C84 minimal Forth'
1995\05\17@061401 by Brian Robinson

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>Daniel Mahoney (EraseMEdmahoneyRemoveMEspamnetcom.com) wrote:
>
>>Can anyone point me to a Forth cross-compiler that targets these
>>chips?

Dear Daniel,
       The following information is over a year old, but may still be
valid.  A minimal Forth-like development system (and information on it) is
available from:

Alan M Robertson,
RAM Technology Systems Ltd.,
3 Kellaway Road,
Poole,
Dorset, BH17 7PD.
England

FAX  44 (0) 1258 456410.

It costs about 230 pounds plus 10 pounds carriage plus VAT at 17.5% in its
full form for hardware programmer and software development system.  It
consists of a  'Smart-ICEPIC' which will program PIC 16C64/71/84, with a
header or cable to plug into the target system for ICE development.
Programming software runs on a PC using a few pins on the parallel printer
port.

However, the interesting part is that for the 16C84 there is a small
Forth-like 'Target Link Monitor' TLM, which lives in the PIC, of only about
120 EEPROM program words containing the code for the Forth words:

 STACK>   >STACK   fC@    SP@    EXECUTE   FREEZE   PIC.RESET  SERVER

These can be executed by sending the execution address down the same 2 wire
serial connection to the unit that is used for programming it.  The STACK>
word waits for the host to send two bytes of data.  The word EXECUTE
performes a computed goto to this value as a CFA code field address.  The
SERVER word consists of

: SERVER  ( S - )  BEGIN  >STACK  >STACK  EXECUTE  AGAIN ;

so two 16 bit values arrive over the serial link, are put on the stack and
consist of an address which is executed.  A method of examining register
contents is:

       STATUS  fC@  H.

where STATUS is translated on the host, before sending information to the
target PIC.  The host system on the PC is F-PC from Tom Zimmer which holds
the dictionary etc for the target PIC.  There is also a library of useful
Forth word extensions etc.

At any time you can permanently load in extra words to the EEPROM by
programming them in, then switch back to interactive testing.  Although the
initial words provided are minimal, the system can be extended with
whatever new words are desired.

The philosophy seems excellent for interactive development on a minimal
system.  I am trying to decide whether to take the plunge and buy one!

       Brian Robinson

::From::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
: Brian Robinson,                  _/_/_/    _/_/_/              Faraday A38 :
: Environmental Science Division, _/    _/  _/    _/                         :
: I.E.B.S.,                      _/_/_/    _/_/_/    Tel: +44 (0)1524 593922 :
: Lancaster University,         _/    _/  _/  _/     FAX: +44 (0)1524 593985 :
: Lancaster, LA1 4YQ, U.K.     _/_/_/    _/    _/ .....B.Robinsonspamspam_OUTlancaster.ac.uk :
:::::::::::::: http://es-sv1.lancs.ac.uk/people/teach/br.html ::::::::::::::::

'MY PIC Chip uses (mechanical parts)'
1995\05\17@082722 by Reg Neale

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| Folks,
|         I couldn't find the PIC catalog, you can probably look them

PIC = Precision Industrial Components
     P.O. Box 1004
     Benson Road
     Middlebury CT 06762

     (800) 243-6125 voice
     (203) 758-8271 fax



*Reg Neale=@spam@nealeEraseMEspamspamee.rochester.edu ....standard disclaimer applies...*
*..."Ignorance is a renewable resource."....P.J. O'Rourke............*

1995\05\17@111955 by Brian Read

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PIC (Precision Industrial Components)
PO Box 1004, Benson Road
Middlebury, CT 06762

Tel: 800-243-6125
FAX: 203-758-8271
TWX: 710-477-5234

They are still around and still have neat stuff.

In addition to Stock Drive and PIC the following are
must haves for the mechanicly inclined:

Small Parts Inc.
13980 NW 58th Court
PO Box 4650
Miami Lakes FL 33014

Tel: 305-557-8222
FAX: 800-423-9009

WM Berg
499 Ocean Ave
East Rockaway, NY 11518

Tel: 516-596-1700
FAX: 515-599-3274
TWX: 910-350-6176

Allied Devices
2365 Milburn Ave
Baldwin, NY 11510

Tel: 516-223-9100
FAX: 516-223-9172

Happy Shopping,
Brian Read

1995\05\17@123821 by Doug Sellner

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{Quote hidden}

There is also another Sock Drive Parts type company out there believe it or not
their name is PIC they are located in New Jersey.  Call 1-900-555-1212 for
the number.


Doug Sellner
Beach Tech
4131 Vincent Avenue South
Minneapolis MN 55410

Voice (612) 924-9193 x 521
Fax   (612) 926-1145

Internet: @spam@dsellnerSTOPspamspamembay.com

'Unix PIC simulator (was UNIX Tools?)'
1995\05\17@211037 by dave madden

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=>There's another Unix simulator around, too - it was posted to this group
=>by Dave Madden <TakeThisOuTdhmTakeThisOuTspamRemoveMEVHEISSU.NET.DCL.CO.JP> last november, and should be
=>on ftp.sics.se as well (though I can't see it there). It needs C++ and X,
=>and I still have a copy, though it would probably be better to look to
=>Dave for any updates first.

Hi.  I'm still here, but haven't had much time to do PIC-related stuff
recently.  I've put the simulator Adrian mentioned up for anon ftp
from:

               iii.net:/pub/pub-site/dhm/picsim.tar.gz

I compiled it today with g++-2.6.2 and X11R6 and it still worked; I
think I was using g++-2.5.4 and X11R5 back in November when I was last
working actively on it.  Several people took copies back then, but I
only heard from one or two people, and only that they were having
trouble compiling it (with older versions of g++ or AT&T c++).

I haven't done any more on it because I'm trying to think of elegant
ways to handle some tough issues; it's not specifically PIC-related,
so I won't waste your time with it, but if anyone wants to discuss
simulator design, I'd be glad to hear from you.

Regards,
d.

'Real nice things to have in a PICCY'
1995\05\17@221626 by Mick Kunstelj

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Greetings to Microchip and Brian Boles,


If I was hard pressed to make a minimal suggestion, I'd suggest making a
c84 with a 12 bit A/D.  As you would probably use successive
approximation to perform the A/D, you could also get a D/A converter out
of the PIC as well.

By making TRISTATE sample and hold circuits as the outputs of your 8 I/O
pins, you could hook in an internal analogue multiplexor and thus offer
A/D and D/A on any of the output pins.  (naturally, these could not drive
any mega level of load, but on the c84 those pins can't anyway)

That would make the c84,  stumped for better words,  *AWESOME*.  It would
make the c84 the obvious choice for experimenters and
low intensity applications people.  You could imagine the number of CRO'S
and function generators, sound effects units etc etc that would fill the
magazines if such a beasty existed.

Hey, an alternate way to do the A/D is have in input Analogue input
connected to a simple VCO,  in turn fed into a counter.  Hey, that's how
I did it once, and it gave me the 8khz 8 bit sample rate I needed.

But yeah, c84 with A/D and D/A all the same...

Thanks,

Regards,
 Mick Kunstelj.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
Greetings and Salutations from Mick Kunstelj    |If MS do make a global
  spam_OUTu913596spamspam.....student.canberra.edu.au               |network, you should be more
                                                |worried about a satellite
I accept no care or responsibility for anything,|landing on you than them
anywhere or anytime.... So NYAH!!!!             |taking things over...
-------------------------------------------------------------------

'MY PIC Chip uses (mechanical parts)'
1995\05\18@085702 by steve

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In your message dated Tuesday 16, May 1995 you wrote :
> One source for neat mechanical gizmos (gears, couplimgs, belt and chain
> drives) is Stock Drive Products, 2101 Jerico Turnpike, New Hyde Park, NY 11040
<-snip->
> Another source is Small Parts Inc., 13980 NW 58TH Court, Miami Lakes FL 33014
> Phone (800)220-4242.  They have more hardware and sheet and rod stock, and
> also carry tubing and connectors for pneumatic and fluidic use.
<-snip->

Anyone know the names and phone numbers for some similar suppliers in the UK?

--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Steve Morgan    EMail steve.....spam@spam@strawlan.demon.co.uk                        |
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

'Re[2]: PICLIST Digest - 15 May 1995 to 16 May 1995'
1995\05\18@134421 by tnguyen

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    >I'll second (or third?) that. There are a few hundred million of us
    >here in Asia that can't get onto your BBS as it would cost far too
    >much, but we can get onto Internet for US$120/year. I would be very
    >interested in some method of gaining more information on your
    >products, so some sort of Internet link or archive for your BBS
    >postings would be very helpful.

    >(I can't get to your BBS via Compuserve either for you eagle-eyed

    Hi, folks, I am the Microchip BBS Sysop, and I have been following
    this thread about Internet and BBS for some time.  Let me add a few
    comments here:

    1. Many of you may not be aware of it, but the Microchip Boston Sales
    office does sponsor a Microchip Web and ftp site.

    The Web site is: http://www.ultranet.com/microchip
    and ftp site is: ftp.ultranet.com/microchip.

    You should be able to get latest Development software (like MPASM,
    MPSIM, etc.) from these sites.

    2. The term COMPUSERVE connotes an impression that Microchip customers
    must belong to the Compuserve Information Service (CIS) membership to
    participate in the Microchip BBS. It ain't so!  Compuserve, in order
    to support its CIS customers, installs a global network and offers to
    make it available for lease, not unlike AT&T offering its
    long-distance service.  Most Microchip customers, especially overseas
    like Europe and Asia, should be able to take advantage of this global
    network and dial into Microchip BBS with a local phone call.  The
    connection procedure for overseas varies with geographical areas.  If
    you have problem, send me an e-mail and I'll see if I can help you
    out.  Remember: you don't need Compuserve membership to participate in
    the Microchip BBS.

    Since H&R Block, America's biggest tax preparation firm, owns
    Compuserve, maybe we should suggest they change the name to H&R Block
    network to eliminate the confusion :-)

    3. You want internet connection, and we hear you!! :-)

    Thang Nguyen               spamBeGonetnguyenspamspam_OUTmicrochip.com

1995\05\19@062807 by Adrian Godwin

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Thang Nguyen <EraseMEtnguyen.....spammicrochip.com> writes :

>      1. Many of you may not be aware of it, but the Microchip Boston Sales
>      office does sponsor a Microchip Web and ftp site.
>
>      The Web site is: http://www.ultranet.com/microchip
>      and ftp site is: ftp.ultranet.com/microchip.

Yes, I've looked there (I think it's ftp.ultranet.com/biz/mchip) -
unfortunately, updating the site doesn't seem to be a high priority at
the moment : the pointers to device info sheets on the web page don't
work, and the application notes in the ftp directories are incomplete
(I think the popular AN589 is still missing).

This could just reflect the state of the BBS - I haven't checked these
files on there - but I get the impression that the BBS is kept rather
more current.

On the BBS, there's an improvement that could probably be made quite
easily : the implementation of Kermit that's in use seems to be the
old-fashioned one often included in BBS file transfer suites. It's
way out of date by current standards, and upgrading to a modern version
would improve transfer speeds considerably while losing none of the
reliability for which Kermit is famous. Kermit 3.14 includes a
'kermit lite' version especially configured to provide only the functions
needed for a BBS external protocol while minimising memory usage.

>
>      3. You want internet connection, and we hear you!! :-)
>

Thank you !

-adrian

'Request for info on PIC <--> RS232 interfacing.'
1995\05\19@100227 by Chris Madden

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RS232 interfacing made easy.

What you need:
--------------
               1. MAX232 / MAX233

Why you need:
-------------
               1. VOLTAGE LEVEL CONVERSION
                  -------------------------
                  The MAX232/3 acts as a voltage level converter.
                   It converts the 0/5V TTL level of the PIC to
                   +12/-12V level of the RS232 target system.
                  The MAX232 employs a charge pump to achieve the
                   larger voltage. The charge pump requires external
                   resistors / capacitors for the MAX232.
                  The MAX233 has these resistors / capacitors on chip &
                   therefore offers a SINGLE CHIP TTL <--> RS232 VOLTAGE
                   LEVEL CONVERTER.

What you need to know:
----------------------
               The MAX232/3 contains two receive & two transmit buffers
                (ie you can convert two different TTL signals to RS232 &
                two different RS232 signals to TTL).
               For a bare-bones-up-and-running-quickly implementation
                you need only one transmit and one receive buffer.
               For handshaking (if it's necessary) the spare transmit and
                receive buffer can be used for CLEAR_TO_SEND (CTS) and
                REQUEST_TO_SEND (RTS) signals.
                Using these spare buffers in this way will improve
                 communication reliability.


Example (My first attempt at ascii art!) :
--------
BARE-BONES-UP-AND-RUNNNG-QUICKLY IMPLEMENTATION:


       [RS232:+12/-12V]                              [TTL:0/5V]
                            MAX232/3                      PIC
                               ___                        ___
                                |   +5V                    |   +5V
                            ---------                   -------
                           |         |          RB0    |       |
       TARGET TX           |   |\    |          PIC RX |       |
               ________\___|___| \___|__\______________|       |_____
                       /   |   | /   |  /              |       |     |
                           |   |/    |                 |       |    ----
                           |         |          RB1    |       |    ||||
       TARGET RX           |    /|   |          PIC TX |       |    ----
               ________/___|___/ |___|__/______________|       |_____|
                       \   |   \ |   |  \              |       | crystal
                           |    \|   |                 |       |
                           |         |                 |       |
                            ---------                   -------
                                |                           |
                                |      Ground              ----
                              ----                         \  /
                              \  /                          \/
                               \/


       TARGET GROUND                                   PIC GROUND

                 _______________________________________
                |                                       |
                |                                       |
              ----                                     ----
              \  /                                     \  /
               \/                                       \/

The PIC exteranal interrupt pin may be used to signal the receipt of a START
bit. The remaining bits are then received in software from this pin.


Where to find out more:
-----------------------
               1. PIC AN510 application note: "implementation of an
                  asynchronous Serial I/O" at various PIC ftp sites.
               2. Serial communications FAQs:
            http://www.paranoia.com/~filipg/HTML/LINK/PORTS/F_Parallel.html




       Take Care,
               Chris Madden


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