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PICList Thread
'More IRDA'
1995\06\12@094046 by Andre Breytenbach

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With all the talk on IrDA I browsed through the tech manual of an Intel high
integration Pentium motherboard with IrDA interface on board. On this board
you can redirect COM2 to the IrDA port and then use standard communication
software to communicate via the IR port - at a distance of up to 1M (ONLY?).

The hardware interface to the transceiver module consists of TX, RX, +5V and
GND lines. May it be that these could be RS232-like signals that need
buffering and/or inversion?

Any ideas out there?

Andre Breytenbach

Voice: (27) 12 803 7680
Fax:   (27) 12 803 8294
___________________________________________________

The opinions expressed herein is my very own and
does not reflect that of any other person or company.
___________________________________________________

1995\06\13@134633 by David Boulton

picon face
I don't want to throw cold water on people's cool ideas, but
everyone needs to realize that IrDA is more than just a simple IR
modem. There is a specific comm protocol involved. The protocol
takes about 6 to 8 Kbytes when coded in assembler. It also requires
some reasonable sized buffers (several hundred bytes). It doesn't
sound to me like this is going to be very appealing on a PIC with
max 4K instructions.

Of course you could use IrDA hardware without the software for your
own projects, but the cool thing about IrDA is inter-operation of
different devices. For that you need the protocols.

Dave

---
David Boulton                    | knowledge is just a polite
spam_OUTboultonTakeThisOuTspamnetcom.com               | term for dead,
Peregrine Associates             | but not buried imagination.
POB 1385 Redwood City, CA 94064  |           -- e.e. cummings

'Some IRDA info'
1995\06\14@211130 by James L. Johnson

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  I have a little information on the HP IRDA solution.  HP offers an
IR transceiver, the HSDL-1000 and sells for less than $5 in big
quantities.  This is a 115.2 kbit device and operates from 5V.  My
sources tell me that HP is working on a new one which will be a 3V version
and will be a 4 Mbit device.  I don't have an expected release date on
it.

  Below is a press release which came out last year announcing a joint
venture with Microsoft on the software for such a product.

  I think there is a marketing/sales pitch for these products which will
be hitting the road soon - to be given in Europe and Asia.  I may have
more on that later.

  Jim Johnson
  .....jjohnsonKILLspamspam@spam@hpl.hp.com

-------------------------------------------------------------------------


 Larry Sennett Hewlett-Packard Company (408) 553-2916

 Kelly Stremel Waggener Edstrom for Microsoft Corp.  (503) 245-0905



      HP AND MICROSOFT TO DEVELOP INFRARED COMMUNICATIONS SOLUTIONS FOR

      MICROSOFT'S WINDOWS 95 OPERATING SYSTEM.


      PALO ALTO, Calif., Dec.  12, 1994 -- Hewlett-Packard Company and
 Microsoft Corp.  today said they are developing an infrared
 communications solution to address the growing needs for low-cost,
 wireless communication between PCs and printers and other peripheral
 products.

      The software solution is being designed for PCs and peripherals
 with IrDA(1) - compliant infrared ports that use Microsoft's Windows
 95 operating systems.  The IrDA, which has more than 90 members,
 including HP and Microsoft, has defined an industry specification for
 infrared communications to help ensure interoperability between
 devices, regardless of product type or brand.

      According to IrDA President Mike Watson, the work being conducted
 by HP and Microsoft will help motivate and critical mass of
 IrDA-compliant devices in 1995.  "The test for any standard is whether
 it can be moved from a paper specification to a variety of
 interoperable products the customers can buy," said Watson.  "This
 announcement from HP and Microsoft will give a big boost to IrDA's
 efforts to achieve this goal in the near term."

      Infrared interoperability will provide users with
 "point-and-shoot" file transfer, printing and other communication
 capabilities without requiring cables or other awkward accessories.

      "HP's leadership in the area of infrared technology will continue
 with a variety of IrDA-compliant products, from desktop PCs and mobile
 computers to printers and other peripherals," said Richard C.  Watts,
 vice president and general manager of HP's Personal Products Group.

      "Our overall goal for the Windows 95 Mobile Services is to make
 using PCs away from the desk easier and more powerful for everyone,"
 said Brad Chase, general manager in Microsoft's Personal Systems
 Group.  "With an IrDA standard in place, we believe infrared
 technology can play a key role in delivering this promise to our
 customers.  This arrangement with HP helps ensure that full-featured,
 IR-based connectivity will be available to every user of Windows 95".

      "Today's mobile PC users desperately want a low-cost, hassle-free
 way to transfer files, print on-the-go and quickly share information
 between devices," said Andy Seybold, editor of Outlook on Mobile
 Computing.  "Infrared communication looks like the best and
 nearest-term solution to fill those needs."

      HP began using an infrared interface in calculators during the
 mid-1980s and now includes the technology in its handheld, desktop and
 mobile PCs, including the recently introduced HP Omnibook 600 and
 Omnibook 4000 PC notebooks.  Last June, HP licensed its serial
 infrared interface to other industry standard for infrared
 communications.

      Founded in 1975, Microsoft (NASDAQ:  "MSFT") is the worldwide
 leader in software for personal computers.  The company offers a wide
 range of products and services for business and personal use, each
 designed with the mission of making it easier and more enjoyable for
 people to take advantage of the full power of personal computing every
 day.

      Hewlett-Packard Company is a leading global manufacturer of
 computing, communications and measurement products and services
 recognized for excellence in quality and support.  HP has 98,400
 employees and had revenues of $25 billion in its 1994 fiscal year.
 ###

 Microsoft is a US registered trademark and Windows is a trademark of
 Microsoft Corp.  ________________________________________

 (1) IrDA
 stands for Infrared Data Associations

'More IRDA information'
1995\06\15@124613 by James L. Johnson

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  I have more info on the IRDA devices that people have asked about in
the past few days.  I received a pile of data sheets from the local HP
marketing guy including a preliminary sheet on the 4Mbit part.  Let me
know if you have specific questions or if you want me to Snailmail a
data sheet to you, or FAX it.  The marketing guy says:

  "HP will be putting on a series of IR seminars in Europe in the
   month of July.  For more information please contact your local
   European sales office or Sybilla Reck at 49-7031-14-2577."


 Jim Johnson
 jjohnsonspamKILLspamhpl.hp.com

'Another IRDA source'
1995\06\21@134408 by Doug Smith

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Another possible way to do IRDA is with the CS8130 chip from Crystal
Simicondutor.  They faxed over specs and sent a data book and it looks
pretty good.  The chip will do IRDA and a few other IR protocols.  There
is an evaluation board available but I haven't ordered mine yet.  I'll
let you know more about it after I get one to play with.  Here is the
contact person who sent me the information...

>   Brent Wilson
>   Infrared Applications Engineer
>   Crystal Semiconductor Corp.
>   email: .....bwwKILLspamspam.....crystal.cirrus.com
>   Tel: 512 912 3554
>   Fax: 512 445 2831
>   t/f: 800 888 5016 ext 3554

--
Doug Smith, SGA * Loves Park, IL * dougs%EraseMEsgaspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTwheaton.wheaton.edu
AppleLink: G0231 * CompuServe: 72727,3532

'HP & IRDA'
1995\06\22@085049 by Harrison Cooper

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Thought this might be of interest for those of you talking
(writing ?) about HP and IRDA.  EET just had an article on
net surfing and mentioned IR info available on the HP page
called "access HP".  Couldn't quite make out all the address
but might start with http://www.hp.com

Harrison Cooper
Evans & Sutherland Computer Corp
hcooperspamspam_OUTes.com


'IrDA on PC (was :Re: IrDA on PIC)'
1997\04\03@020236 by Wolfram Liebchen
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At 11:55 03.04.97 +0930, Mike Smith wrote:
>Where  did you find the info on how to get the PC motherboard to work with
>it?  My *bios* has support, but I can find no data on h/w support for it.
>
>MikeS
>

Some mainboards (at least ASUS) have a connector, where you can attach a
little
daughter board (2 x 1 inch) with the IrDA transceiver.
It's described in the board manual, but one seems not able to buy it.
It contains almost only the Hewlett Packard IR modul, therefor you can
build it
yourself.

regards,

Wolfram



+-----------------------------------------------------+
| Wolfram Liebchen                                    |
| Forschungsinstitut fŸr Optik, TŸbingen, Deutschland |
| @spam@liebchenKILLspamspamffo.fgan.de                         |
+-----------------------------------------------------+

1997\04\03@041753 by tefan Ranguelov

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> At 11:55 03.04.97 +0930, Mike Smith wrote:
> >Where  did you find the info on how to get the PC motherboard to work with
> >it?  My *bios* has support, but I can find no data on h/w support for it.
> >
> >MikeS
> >
>
> Some mainboards (at least ASUS) have a connector, where you can attach a
> little
> daughter board (2 x 1 inch) with the IrDA transceiver.
> It's described in the board manual, but one seems not able to buy it.
> It contains almost only the Hewlett Packard IR modul, therefor you can
> build it
> yourself.

You can also build an adapter from the
standard RS232 to IRDA. For sending
data it has to generate shorter impulses
and for recieving it expands the pulse
length, so the RS232 can recognize 0 or 1.

There is a special HP chip for this.
The only problem is, the time values depend
on the baud rate, and a standatd RS232 has
no bit takt avaible.

So you have to use a trick and first tell
the converter chip the baud rate. This
means you need special software...



St.

1997\04\03@092613 by Tom Handley

picon face
  re: IRDA

  Stefan, I have the HP evaluation boards. The problem with adding it to the
pc's serial port is that you need to generate a 16X baud rate. You can get
a Windows IRDA driver from Microsoft for free. Most of the newer I/O chip
sets support IRDA. I have'nt tried to interface the HP boards to Windows
yet. When I get the time, I intend to interface them to a PIC 16C73. When/if
I do, I'll be glad to share the info.

  - Tom

At 11:15 AM 4/3/97 +0200, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}


'slightly [OT] - light pipes and IRDA'
1998\02\12@114020 by Steve Lawther
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    Has anybody used light pipes OR optical fibre to route the IR from
    IRDA?
    Does it work?
    What company's products should I look at?
    Are there (very) cheap light splitters or combiners available?
   
    It's indirectly PIC related  -> on the end of each IRDA is planned to
    be a PIC.
   
       Steve Lawther
   

1998\02\12@120015 by Keith Howell

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Steve Lawther wrote:
>
>      It's indirectly PIC related
> on the end of each IRDA is planned to be a PIC.
> PICs running IrDA? Are you sure they're up to it? I looked at the specs
once and went right off using IrDA. For one, it is too complex to be
simply described and implemented. I'd guess about as complex as a Zmodem
or TCP/IP driver. You require data buffers, and IRDA runs up to 115kBaud
(standard) or 4MBaud (enhanced). Fine for a typical PC, but not really
suited to consumer electronics like hi-fi, TV, etc.

A cleverer chap than I put some document on the net describing all sorts
of flaws in the protocol, entitled "101 reasons why IRDA should be
laughed out of the room" or similar. I suspect quite a few consumer
goods with IRDA ports just run as half- duplex RS232 ports.

Comments?

1998\02\12@140810 by Darryl Newberry

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>> PICs running IrDA? Are you sure they're up to it? I looked at the specs
[snip]
>of flaws in the protocol, entitled "101 reasons why IRDA should be
>laughed out of the room" or similar. I suspect quite a few consumer
>goods with IRDA ports just run as half- duplex RS232 ports.
[snip]

http://cesdis.gsfc.nasa.gov/linux/misc/irda-flaws.html

-dn

1998\02\12@184126 by Andrew Warren

face
flavicon
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Keith Howell <KILLspamPICLISTKILLspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU> wrote:

> A cleverer chap than I put some document on the net describing all
> sorts of flaws in the protocol, entitled "101 reasons why IRDA
> should be laughed out of the room" or similar.

   It was written by Donald Becker; the actual title is "IrDA IrLAP
   Standard Critique, or Why IrDA Should Be Laughed Out of Town".
   You can find it at:

       http://cesdis.gsfc.nasa.gov/linux/misc/irda-flaws.html

   Mr. Becker has a lot of useful IRDA information on his web
   site... After you've read his critique, you can see the rest of
   it at:

       http://cesdis.gsfc.nasa.gov/linux/misc/irda.html

   -Andy

=== Andrew Warren - RemoveMEfastfwdTakeThisOuTspamix.netcom.com
=== Fast Forward Engineering - Vista, California
=== http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/2499

1998\02\13@055049 by Steve Lawther

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    Sorry to confuse,
   
    When I said IRDa, I meant IRDa compatible transceiver MODULES - I
    didn't mean that I was using the protocol! As spamBeGonedarrylspamBeGonespamBLAZIE.COM's link
    pointed out, the least stressful way to use IRDa Modules, is to make
    it look like a comm port (with a high bit error rate!), and forget the
    protocol
   
    The idea was to pipe the IR from a master transmitter to multiple
    slaves, and receive the answers back from the slaves combined on
    another fibre pipe. (a bit like 4 wire RS485 with 1 master, multiple
    slaves)
   
    Steve Lawther


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject:      Re: slightly [OT] - light pipes and IRDA
Author:  MIME:TakeThisOuTkeithhEraseMEspamspam_OUTARCAM.CO.UK at INTERNET-HUSKY
Date:    12/02/98 17:09


Steve Lawther wrote:
>
>      It's indirectly PIC related
> on the end of each IRDA is planned to be a PIC.
> PICs running IrDA? Are you sure they're up to it? I looked at the specs
once and went right off using IrDA. For one, it is too complex to be
simply described and implemented. I'd guess about as complex as a Zmodem
or TCP/IP driver. You require data buffers, and IRDA runs up to 115kBaud
(standard) or 4MBaud (enhanced). Fine for a typical PC, but not really
suited to consumer electronics like hi-fi, TV, etc.
   
A cleverer chap than I put some document on the net describing all sorts
of flaws in the protocol, entitled "101 reasons why IRDA should be
laughed out of the room" or similar. I suspect quite a few consumer
goods with IRDA ports just run as half- duplex RS232 ports.
   
Comments?
   


'Still searching IrDA-software for PIC's'
1999\01\19@165124 by Goovaerts
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Still searching for people who have IrDA-example code or IrDA experience
!!!!

Anyone ??

Glenn Goovaerts

1999\01\21@103031 by Cheney, Joseph

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Hi Glenn,

I've done quite a lot of work with IrDA and pic's; mainly using HP's
HSDL-series of components ( cheapand reliable!!! ) - was there anything in
particular you wanted to know??

JC

-----Original Message-----
From: Goovaerts [RemoveMEgoofy1spamTakeThisOuTGLO.BE]
Sent: 19 January 1999 21:31
To: PICLISTEraseMEspam.....MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Still searching IrDA-software for PIC's


Still searching for people who have IrDA-example code or IrDA experience
!!!!

Anyone ??

Glenn Goovaerts


'[SOT] IrDA interface circuit'
1999\03\29@055446 by D. Schouten
picon face
Hi All,

I'm looking for a circuit (probably containing some kind of uC) which
adds IrDA capabilities to my PC. I want to experiment with optical
communication between my PC and a PIC controlled external hardware
device.

Any Ideas?

Thanks

Daniel...

1999\03\29@100030 by Mark Willis

flavicon
face
Halted has an ISA card (IBM unit) for $19.95 IIRC that does that.

 http://www.halted.com/specials/pc.htm

 If you get one, I need another PCMCIA one, I'll split it with you
maybe?  (If they don't ship to .NL, I could do that, too.)

 Mark

D. Schouten wrote:
{Quote hidden}

1999\03\29@110309 by Wagner Lipnharski

picon face
There are few external solutions to add IrDA to PC's, including the new
motherboards already come from factory with all the necessary chips
on-board.  Some of those motherboards you just need to plug the IrDA
transceiver (that goes on the PC front panel).

Note that just plug the transceiver is not enough to communicate via
IrDA.  There are three possible ways to physically communicate via IrDA
chips.  Raw mode, ASK and IrDA.  The Raw mode is purelly an infra-red
signal, like the TV remotes, the ASK can use high frequency
communication but still in somekind of raw (with or without checking
characters), while IrDA itself is a new subset of the HDLC, a high level
communication protocol with several software layers and controls.

Windows (Microsoft) offers a software package to use IrDA at your PC
under Win95/98, but it uses the regular IrDA procotol for printers and
notebooks (only).

For a simple communication between a PC and a PIC, you can use the raw
or ASK mode that would be plenty.  Remember that IrDA recomendations
produces devices that can only communicate in a cone of aprox 20 to 30¡,
in a maximum of 1.5-3 meters distance.  Remember that you would need to
write the software for both sides, PIC and PC.

For IrDA chips (transceivers and UARTs) take a look at HP and Cirrus
(Crystal) company. Temic (Telefunken) also produce those devices
(TFDS3000/4000 and TOIM3232) but they have a BIG delivery problem for
quantities lower than a full reel.

1999\03\29@135734 by ry (Nahum Tchernihhovsky)

flavicon
face
I am looking for such a solution too. It will be nice to use a palmtop to
transfer data from a PC to a PIC controlled system.
Cherry <EraseMEcherry.nspamvisonic.com>




"D. Schouten" <RemoveMEdanielsEraseMEspamEraseMEXS4ALL.NL> on 29/03/99 13:50:36

Please respond to pic microcontroller discussion list
     <RemoveMEPICLISTspam_OUTspamKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>

To:   RemoveMEPICLISTTakeThisOuTspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
cc:    (bcc: Nachum Tchernichovski/Visonic Ltd.)
Subject:  [SOT] IrDA interface circuit




Hi All,

I'm looking for a circuit (probably containing some kind of uC) which
adds IrDA capabilities to my PC. I want to experiment with optical
communication between my PC and a PIC controlled external hardware
device.

Any Ideas?

Thanks

Daniel...

1999\03\29@142023 by Wagner Lipnharski

picon face
I guess there is no ready solution in software (Win95/98) from microsoft
or toshiba (or other) to allow you to stablish a simple raw infrared
link or at least ASK link.  All of them were designed to use the
Microsoft IrDA standards, so you would need to write your own Windows or
PC-DOS software to drive the transceiver, except if you want to develop
all the IrDA HDLC at the PIC, what sincerelly I don't recomend.

"Cherry (Nahum Tchernihhovsky)" wrote:
{Quote hidden}

1999\03\29@143641 by Mark Willis

flavicon
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Has anyone implemented ZModem on a PIC yet?  At least XModem or
YModem?

 Something where you just use the IrDA port as a serial "wired" link
works just fine between my various laptops (Heck, I just use InterLink &
InterServer!)  I do "Zip" files up so I can tell if I get an error,
because not everything transmits over correctly - on occasion.  Really
handy for my one laptop that doesn't have a floppy yet & which I haven't
gotten PCMCIA Card & Socket Services installed into yet (Need to install
Windows first.  GRRR.  Don't get me started.  <G>)

 Seems to me you could try to treat this as a somewhat "noisy", wired
connection, as that's what I've been able to do with it here, make some
kind of half-smart protocol where the PIC occasionally pings the PC and
only if the PC responds does the PIC try to establish a link, and then
ZModem exchange your information.  {Half duplex is probably a better
idea than full duplex <G>}  Error checking and NAKing is easy enough...
I've done that often enough in Dos that I'd use Dos (I've done it in
Windows, too, but the Dos app's just LOTS easier to do, more reliable,
and far smaller - you can get a PC110 or the like and multi-boot it to
Dos easily enough.  Use Windows if you prefer, just stating MY
preference <G>)

 Mark

Wagner Lipnharski wrote:
>
> I guess there is no ready solution in software (Win95/98) from microsoft
> or toshiba (or other) to allow you to stablish a simple raw infrared
> link or at least ASK link.  All of them were designed to use the
> Microsoft IrDA standards, so you would need to write your own Windows or
> PC-DOS software to drive the transceiver, except if you want to develop
> all the IrDA HDLC at the PIC, what sincerelly I don't recomend.
> <snipped>

1999\03\29@145314 by Wagner Lipnharski

picon face
Well, CRC16 is a great link check and can be easily implemented with a
minimum cpu overhead. A PC-DOS program to transfer and receive files is
something quite easier to produce, except if you want to go for root
directories and tree structures...yack!... The ready made IrDA links for
PC is not so expensive and the hardware control is just somehow an
UART.  You can also implement your own IrDA hardware, a simple TOIM3232,
xtal 3.57MHz + TFDS3000 from Temic and a couple of resistors, this is
everything you need, well, you need to connect it to an UART, and it is
ttl level, so you would need a MAX232 or brute force with a 74HCT04...
it works and works well.  I use something like that to program/test a
portable device we have with IrDA.  This set could less than $20.00, I
don't know how much cost the ready made IrDA for PC's...
Wagner

Mark Willis wrote:
{Quote hidden}


'[OT] Re: IRDA parts, reels, and humidity'
1999\08\12@175707 by paulb
flavicon
face
Bob Drzyzgula wrote:

> He had enabled power management on his PC, but for whatever reason the
> peltier didn't shut down along with the CPU.

 Doesn't the Peltier, since it takes a couple of amps, plug into the
Disk Drive harness directly from the SMPS?  That only shuts down when
you give the ATX power supply the "turnoff" command.
--
 Cheers,
       Paul B.


'Information sought on PIC - PC IRDAinterface'
2000\01\24@190935 by Russell McMahon
picon face
I received this message today.
I will reply to the sender directly but thought others who have worked with
PIC & IRDA (which I have not done formally) may be willing to comment to him
directly

Please send comments to -

   KILLspamA.WRIGHTspamBeGonespambham-eee-fs4.bham.ac.uk



regards



     Russell McMahon
_____________________________


From: E145 (A.WRIGHT) <EraseMEA.WRIGHTspamEraseMEbham-eee-fs4.bham.ac.uk>
Subject: pic irda


{Quote hidden}

advantages
>this would give me.
>
>  I wouyld be grateful for any ideas or suggestions that you could provide
>
>    Yours thankfully
>
>    Andrew Wright
>


'[PICLIST] Adding IrDa to motherboard'
2000\08\18@143353 by Peter L. Peres
picon face
I think that this link is very relevant:

http://www.daniel-hertrich.de/ir_dev/index.html

Note that you can roll your own without a HSDL chip. It will be slower and
work only over shorter distances (1 ft) ;)

Note that the author did NOT use the port in IrDa mode so the HSDL will
work also for non-IrDa signals. It is just a smart analog front end.

Peter

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'[PICLIST] IrDA'
2000\10\20@061413 by Victor Ong
flavicon
face
Hi,

Anyone has any information / source code for implementing IrDA on a PIC
chip? Any help, info or source of information would greatly help. Thanks.

Victor

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2000\10\20@095953 by M. Adam Davis

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I've seen one website where they were implementing it, but I cannot remember
where it is now.  It was not US based, though.  Maybe russian...  (the page was
in English... It is really wonderful (for me) how so many foreign people put
their pages in both english and their native language.  Makes me wonder why the
US doesn't push secondary languages as much as in other countries.... (aside
from the fact that we're stuck up and all))

-Adam

Victor Ong wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2000\10\23@071312 by Scott Dattalo

face
flavicon
face
On Fri, 20 Oct 2000, Victor Ong wrote:

> Anyone has any information / source code for implementing IrDA on a PIC
> chip? Any help, info or source of information would greatly help. Thanks.

Have you checked Scenix's web site?

Scott

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'[SX]: Irda VP doesn't establish the connection wit'
2000\11\11@184930 by Frank
picon face
Hi there,

I have given a try to the AN16, which is the Irda VP for SX28 on the Scenix web site.

I could make the chip to reply to commands in SX2SX mode, however the two other applications (transparent and SX2PC) are completely dead.

The application note specifies 115.2k com. speed for the uart (debug port) but it actually worked at 38.4k.
Are there more catches?

I would appreciate your comments and experience with it.

Thanks.

Ferenc Vereb
spamBeGonefverebspamKILLspamhotmail.com

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'[PIC]: PIC with SX irda stack'
2000\11\11@194908 by Frank
picon face
Hi there,

Some projects included PIC micros attached to SX with Irda stack on it at PIC archives.

I am also running my code on PIC and using the SX Irda VP for the IR interface, however there is no communication established with windows.

I wonder if anybody could get it working in those projects.

I would appreciate any comments and experience with it.

Thanks.

Ferenc Vereb
TakeThisOuTfvereb.....spamTakeThisOuThotmail.com

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2000\11\12@001146 by Randy Glenn

picon face
You've taken the SX IRDA code to a PIC?

Did you not know that the license agreement for that code forbids this?
You've opened yourself to a lawsuit...

-Randy Glenn

Randy_Glenn-at-tvo.org - PICxpert-at-home.com
PICxpert-at-yahoo.com - PICxpert-at-picxpert.com
           http://www.picxpert.com/

{Original Message removed}

'[EE] : IRDA'
2000\11\14@095407 by Null

flavicon
face
How easy/hard is it to build an IrDA tranciever for the PC?  I have a
header for one on my mother board and would like to add it to
communicate with a Palm Pilot.  I have seen the unit for sale for 40-60
dollars US.  This seems like a lot to me(I could be wrong).  I am
wondering:

1)I have seen IrDA trancievers for sale as raw units.  Do I need to add
anything in between it and the MB to make it work other than wires?  If
so than what needs to be added?

2) Does anyone have a good link to find out more about IrDA hardware?
Ie schematics/specifications etc...  The IrDA.org website was almost
completely useles and be wildering(and slow).

Thanks for the help.  Feel free to respond off list if it is not
relevant.

Allen

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2000\11\15@164808 by Mark Willis

flavicon
face
Take a look at http://daniel-hertrich.de/ir_dev/index.html, he has such
a device on there - He gives full instructions.  You may need to minorly
adapt it if your connector is different (I think they're all the same
though.)

Also, see these links for $20 IRDA units on eBay:
cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=495315919
cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=495317205
cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=495329527
cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=490557649
cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=498145487
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=498146088

search-desc.ebay.com/search/search.dll?MfcISAPICommand=GetResult&ebaytag1=ebayreg&ht=1&query=%2Birda+%2Bdesktop&ebaytag1code=0&srchdesc=y&SortProperty=MetaEndSort&SortOrder=%5Ba%5D
will give you MANY hits on eBay.  Looks like $19.99 is a good price to
pay.

 Mark

Null wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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'[PIC:] IRDA'
2001\04\13@165654 by Harold M Hallikainen
picon face
       I might have an IRDA application and have never done anything with IRDA
before. I'm wondering if something like Windoze Hyperterminal can be
pointed to an IRDA port and then the PIC driving IRDA would just (with
appropriate encoding) consider this to be a terminal. This'd allow a full
screen user interface with no custom code on the Windoze machine. Can it
be done?

Thanks!

Harold



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2001\04\13@200821 by Dan Michaels

flavicon
face
Harold H. wrote:
>        I might have an IRDA application and have never done anything with IRDA
>before. I'm wondering if something like Windoze Hyperterminal can be
>pointed to an IRDA port and then the PIC driving IRDA would just (with
>appropriate encoding) consider this to be a terminal. This'd allow a full
>screen user interface with no custom code on the Windoze machine. Can it
>be done?
>

Alice is an expert on IrDA talking to RS-232 - if she isn't off in the
desert fighting scorpions, that is.

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2001\04\14@091528 by Stephen B Webb

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face
>         I might have an IRDA application and have never done anything with
IRDA

Most likely the mode you are looking for is IRCOMM, which is basically
RS-232 emulation for legacy applications.  Since there is only one "wire"
for the IR stuff, some behind the scenes negotiations have to take place.
(Which are transparent to the windows application program).  BUT, the PIC
program will have to implement the IRDA stuff.

There are IRDA controller chips that may take care of all of the
handshaking stuff for you, in which case your PIC app would be allowed to
be just as stupid as the windows app (ie it thinks it is talking to a
RS232 port)

Check out
http://www.irda.org

for all of the protocol specifications.  IRCOMM is most likely the one you
want.

-Steve

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2001\04\14@095128 by Jason L DeVore

flavicon
face
An easy option is to use the sx28 with the irda virtual peripheral.  You
can set up the code to allow transparent ir communications.  I used a pic
to talk rs232 to the sx28 and then to an IrDa computer port. This way the
pic can do all the other stuff.



On Sat, 14 Apr 2001, Stephen B Webb wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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'[PIC]: IrDA'
2001\12\02@231208 by Salah
flavicon
face
Hi List,
  I am looking for PICC source code to implement the Transmit/Receive
protocol using the IrDA ,also an evaluation circuit for the same source code
.... Do I need to do all the IrDA protocols in order to be able to control
the IrDA devices(LEDs) or there is simple Tx/Rx procedure to encode/decode
the signals .....I don`t want to use the ready transceivers like MCP2150
...thinking to use PIC16F84A  to encode/decode the IrDA signals.

Thanx in advance.

Salah Mohammed
Hugle-Electronics,
Tokyo/Japan.

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2001\12\03@133003 by Simon-Thijs=20de=20Feber?=

flavicon
face
Hello,

I am very interested in that piece of software as well
!

Best regards,

Simon

--- Salah <RemoveMEsalahspamspamBeGoneHUGLE.CO.JP> wrote: > Hi List,
{Quote hidden}

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Go to http://uk.promotions.yahoo.com/nokia/ discover and win it!
The competition ends 16 th of December 2001.

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2001\12\03@213448 by codefreeze 0

picon face
>
>  --- Salah <TakeThisOuTsalahspamspamHUGLE.CO.JP> wrote: > Hi List,
> >    I am looking for PICC source code to implement
> > the Transmit/Receive
> > protocol using the IrDA ,also an evaluation circuit
> > for the same source code
> > .... Do I need to do all the IrDA protocols in order
> > to be able to control
> > the IrDA devices(LEDs) or there is simple Tx/Rx
> > procedure to encode/decode
> > the signals

Yes. But it is still simple to en/decode it once you know the protocol.


.....I don`t want to use the ready
> > transceivers like MCP2150
> > ...thinking to use PIC16F84A  to encode/decode the
> > IrDA signals.

There should be no problem. Complete data sheets are found at irda.org
FYI, I'm doing my project using MCP2150, so that I can squeeze in more code
to do other stuff.


{Quote hidden}

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'[EE]: IRDA RS232 interface'
2001\12\19@010824 by Richard Sloan

flavicon
face
Anyone try to stretch the pulse with caps/resistors to get more proper RS232 type timing our of IRDA transceivers?

Any other cheap technique available so you can attach direct to TX/RX lines on micro?

Richard.

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'[OT]: IRDA tranceivers'
2001\12\19@151715 by Richard Sloan

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What would you suggest for a fairly industry standard / low cost 115.2kbps IRDA transceiver?

Richard.

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2001\12\19@154910 by Louis Davis

flavicon
face
I have used the Infineon IRMS6100 with success.

-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Sloan [RemoveMErsloanEraseMEspamspam_OUTTHEMINDFACTORY.COM]
Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 2:10 PM
To: @spam@PICLISTRemoveMEspamEraseMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: [OT]: IRDA tranceivers


What would you suggest for a fairly industry standard / low cost 115.2kbps
IRDA transceiver?

Richard.

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'[OT]: IRDA modules'
2002\04\12@162045 by Richard Sloan
flavicon
face
What is a popular well stocked IRDA module??

Having hard time find one to use in a project.

Only need up to 19200 rate.

Richard.

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2002\04\12@173019 by Gregory D Wagner

picon face
The MAX3100 is one. The data sheet contains an example using the PIC16C54.
Also, see <http://www.emesystems.com/BS2IrDA.htm> for a discussion on
interfacing to a Stamp microcontroller.
--
Greg

Richard Sloan wrote:
>What is a popular well stocked IRDA module??
>
>Having hard time find one to use in a project.
>
>Only need up to 19200 rate.
>
>Richard.

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2002\04\13@011329 by Timothy J. Massey

flavicon
face
Hello!

I hope this helps:  it's a link to a guy who built a remote control
receiver that uses a PIC 16C84 and communicates to the PC via IRDA.  The
IRDA communication is done directly by the PIC...

http://www.cadsoft.de/people/kls/vdr/remote.htm

Tim Massey





                   Richard Sloan
                   <rsloan@THEMINDFA       To:     EraseMEPICLISTspam@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
                   CTORY.COM>              cc:
                   Sent by: pic            Subject:     [OT]: IRDA modules
                   microcontroller
                   discussion list
                   <PICLIST@MITVMA.M
                   IT.EDU>


                   04/12/02 04:23 PM
                   Please respond to
                   pic
                   microcontroller
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What is a popular well stocked IRDA module??

Having hard time find one to use in a project.

Only need up to 19200 rate.

Richard.

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'[PIC]: IrDA'
2002\05\29@083433 by Nick Hardy
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face
Does anyone have code / knowledge of how to implement the full IrDA
protocols / stacks on a PIC? Thanks!

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'[EE]: MCP2150 IRDA Controller'
2002\07\08@063552 by Richard Stevens
flavicon
face
Hi,
       I'm interested to know whether anyone has had any success using
Microchip's MCP2150 IRDA Controller. I am trying, using as a starting point
a
circuit based on the one in their "MCP2120/MCP2150 DEVELOPER'S KIT USER'S
GUIDE." So far limited success. One or two seconds of connection folllowed
by a cooked chip.....  'I believe' all my voltage and current parameters are
within those specified on the (incomplete) data sheet for the product.  Has
anyone had any more luck than me??

Regards,  Richard.

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'[ot]: IRDA Transceiver'
2003\02\04@114654 by Anand Dhuru
flavicon
face
Does anyone on the list have data sheets (at least a pin out diagram) or app. notes for the HP / Agilent HSDL 1000 Irda module?

Tried Google without much success, and doesnt seem to exist on the Agilent site either :(.

Any help would be highly appreciated.

Regards,

Anand Dhuru

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2003\02\04@142020 by Andrew Warren

flavicon
face
Anand Dhuru <spamBeGonePICLISTEraseMEspammitvma.mit.edu> wrote:

> Does anyone on the list have data sheets (at least a pin out diagram)
> or app. notes for the HP / Agilent HSDL 1000 Irda module?
>
> Tried Google without much success, and doesnt seem to exist on the
> Agilent site either :(.

   Twenty seconds spent on an Altavista search at

       http://www.altavista.com/web/adv

   for the boolean expression

       "hsdl 1000" and irda

   yielded this datasheet for the HSDL 1001, a drop-in replacement
   for the HSDL 1000:

       http://ch.telemost.ru/cellular/hsdl1001.pdf

   -Andy

=== Andrew Warren -- aiwspamBeGonespamcypress.com
=== Principal Design Engineer
=== Cypress Semiconductor Corporation
===
=== Opinions expressed above do not
=== necessarily represent those of
=== Cypress Semiconductor Corporation

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'[EE]: IRDa operation'
2003\02\05@225812 by Anand Dhuru

flavicon
face
Hi folks,

Please excuse the OT nature of this post; but, I have been struggling with this for some time, and as most times in the past, it is very tempting to seek advice from this great pool of talent.

I am trying to connect a home brew IRDA adapter based on the HP HSDL 1000 modules I located at a surplus store.

I have XP running on my PC, and the IRDA adapter just doesnt work. I have changed the BIOS UART mode for COM2 to SIR, of course, and the XP control panel does report an IRDA adapter being preasent. However, when I bring my Nokia 8210 in close proximity, it does not communicate; I'm sure the Nokia's IRDA works fine, I checked it with a notebook.

Now, my question is, if Windows is configured correctly, should the TXD on the motherboard not pulse periodically, regardless of whether it is receiving a valid IRDa transmission? Or does it commence to do so only when it detects the presence of an IRDa device? In which case, how would the communication be initiated if both the devices are just 'listening' to begin with?

Thanks and regards,

Anand Dhuru

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'Hooking up an HSDL-1001 IrDA transceiver to a bre'
2003\03\14@080806 by Rick Regan
picon face
I have an Agilent HSDL-1001 IrDA transceiver which
I would like to hook up to a (solderless) breadboard
for testing.  The problem is that the pin spacing on
the HSDL-1001 is much closer than on a standard DIP.
I am not sure what you call this type of packaging,
but it has 8 closely spaced pins all on one side (by
the way, 1 pin is NC, so I'd only need to connect 7
of the pins).

Can anyone suggest a good way to hook this up to a
breadboard?  Is there an adapter I could buy?
Preferably, I'd like to make something - it could be
quick and dirty just for testing.  I presume I'd have
to mount it on something and solder some wires to it,
but any way I've envisioned doing it seems like a
tricky job.

FYI, the HSDL-1001 transceiver datasheet can be found
at:
http://literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5988-7285EN.pdf

Thanks!


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2003\03\14@081227 by Rick Regan

picon face
SORRY, FORGOT THE TAG THE FIRST TIME!

I have an Agilent HSDL-1001 IrDA transceiver which
I would like to hook up to a (solderless) breadboard
for testing.  The problem is that the pin spacing on
the HSDL-1001 is much closer than on a standard DIP.
I am not sure what you call this type of packaging,
but it has 8 closely spaced pins all on one side (by
the way, 1 pin is NC, so I'd only need to connect 7
of the pins).

Can anyone suggest a good way to hook this up to a
breadboard?  Is there an adapter I could buy?
Preferably, I'd like to make something - it could be
quick and dirty just for testing.  I presume I'd have
to mount it on something and solder some wires to it,
but any way I've envisioned doing it seems like a
tricky job.

FYI, the HSDL-1001 transceiver datasheet can be found
at:
http://literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5988-7285EN.pdf

Thanks!


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2003\03\14@082217 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>Can anyone suggest a good way to hook this up to a
>breadboard?  Is there an adapter I could buy?

It sounds like you have a surface mount version of the device, so look for
the mounting whatsits that convert surface mount to DIP, probably the SO-14
or SO-16 size should do.

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2003\03\14@083308 by Hazelwood Lyle

flavicon
face
Digi-Key and Alltronics carry the "surfboard" line of adapters.
These are made by Capital Advanced Technologies.
http://www.capitaladvanced.com

A bit pricey, but fine for one-offs.
These are available with or without SIP pins
for breadboarding.

Lyle


{Original Message removed}


'[PIC]: IRDA'
2003\05\27@133134 by Alex Kilpatrick
flavicon
face
I was wondering if anyone had experience working with a PIC and IrDA?  I
have seen some source code on the Web, and while it looks a bit more
complex than regular serial, it doesn't look too bad.
Can anyone suggest an easy-to-use IrDA module?  The Zilog ones seem ok
to me.  Also, can anyone tell me about real-world ranges they get with
an IrDA module?  And any pitfalls to avoid?
 Thanks!
Alex

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2003\05\27@135149 by David VanHorn

flavicon
face
A
>Can anyone suggest an easy-to-use IrDA module?  The Zilog ones seem ok
>to me.  Also, can anyone tell me about real-world ranges they get with
>an IrDA module?  And any pitfalls to avoid?

I'm using those in a project now.
They're fine, easy to use, but watch bypassing and PCB routing.
High pulsed currents, and sensitive analog together in one package.
If you follow the Zilog guidelines, you'll be fine.

Talking IRDA protocol is another matter. I used the Actisys chipset to encapsulate all that "fun", and present it to me as a TTL serial interface.

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2003\05\27@140901 by Robert Reimiller

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face
On Tue, 27 May 2003 12:16:05 -0500, you wrote:
>I was wondering if anyone had experience working with a PIC and IrDA?  I
>have seen some source code on the Web, and while it looks a bit more
>complex than regular serial, it doesn't look too bad.
>
>Can anyone suggest an easy-to-use IrDA module?  The Zilog ones seem ok
>to me.  Also, can anyone tell me about real-world ranges they get with
>an IrDA module?  And any pitfalls to avoid?
>
I have a prototype of a system using a PIC18F452 that uses a HP IrDA
module. The serial port on the PIC is already being used by a different
serial interface (RS232) so the IrDA is being bit banged at 9600 baud.
The PIC is running a 3.68mhz crystal, so obviously much higher rates
would be possible running faster.

I do not use the IrDA stack, the IrDA module is simply carrying SLIP
frame packets (http://www.certsoft.com/cnp11.pdf) with some 0xFF
bytes at the front of each packet for syncronization.

Bob

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2003\05\27@142446 by Alex Kilpatrick

flavicon
face
> >
> I have a prototype of a system using a PIC18F452 that uses a
> HP IrDA module. The serial port on the PIC is already being
> used by a different serial interface (RS232) so the IrDA is
> being bit banged at 9600 baud. The PIC is running a 3.68mhz
> crystal, so obviously much higher rates would be possible
> running faster.
>
> I do not use the IrDA stack, the IrDA module is simply
> carrying SLIP frame packets
> (http://www.certsoft.com/cnp11.pdf) with some > 0xFF bytes at
> the front of each packet for syncronization.
>
Thanks!  That is mainly what I wanted to know -- do you have to use the
protocol stack for an IrDA device that doesn't need to talk to a formal
IrDA device.   I am planning to use it to talk to another PIC with an
IrDA transceiver, so I can use my own protcol.

Will it work with just straight RS-232, or is there some tweaking that
you have to do?

Thanks

Alex

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2003\05\27@154540 by Brent Brown

picon face
> I was wondering if anyone had experience working with a PIC and IrDA?
> I have seen some source code on the Web, and while it looks a bit more
> complex than regular serial, it doesn't look too bad.
>
> Can anyone suggest an easy-to-use IrDA module?  The Zilog ones seem ok
> to me.  Also, can anyone tell me about real-world ranges they get with
> an IrDA module?  And any pitfalls to avoid?

Have used the Microchip MCP2150 IrDA controller with the low power
Temic TFDU4201 module and PIC16F877. My part was just the hardware
design only, no software. We were a bit dissapointed with the overall
data throughput, but we were never sure if the bottlneck was the
MCP2150 or the overhead of IrDA.

Having said that, the setup was pretty easy to use as the MCP2150
takes care of the IrDA connection and protocol.

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2003\05\27@162242 by Talmage Wesley

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What kind of throughtput were you expecting? 9600, 19200, etc?


Thanks
Talmage Wesley


-----Original Message-----
From: Brent Brown [.....brent.brownSTOPspamspam@spam@CLEAR.NET.NZ]
Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 2:44 PM
To: PICLISTEraseMEspam@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [PIC]: IRDA


> I was wondering if anyone had experience working with a PIC and IrDA?
> I have seen some source code on the Web, and while it looks a bit more
> complex than regular serial, it doesn't look too bad.
>
> Can anyone suggest an easy-to-use IrDA module?  The Zilog ones seem ok
> to me.  Also, can anyone tell me about real-world ranges they get with
> an IrDA module?  And any pitfalls to avoid?

Have used the Microchip MCP2150 IrDA controller with the low power
Temic TFDU4201 module and PIC16F877. My part was just the hardware
design only, no software. We were a bit dissapointed with the overall
data throughput, but we were never sure if the bottlneck was the
MCP2150 or the overhead of IrDA.

Having said that, the setup was pretty easy to use as the MCP2150
takes care of the IrDA connection and protocol.

--
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Ph/fax: +64 7 849 0069
Mobile/txt: 025 334 069
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2003\05\27@163848 by Robert Reimiller

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On Tue, 27 May 2003 13:23:11 -0500, you wrote:
>Thanks!  That is mainly what I wanted to know -- do you have to use the
>protocol stack for an IrDA device that doesn't need to talk to a formal
>IrDA device.   I am planning to use it to talk to another PIC with an
>IrDA transceiver, so I can use my own protcol.
>
Right, if you don't need interopability with other IrDA devices at the
protocol level you can use your own protocol.

>Will it work with just straight RS-232, or is there some tweaking that
>you have to do?
>
Regular RS232 uses different levels than infrared. In RS232 the line
idles (mark condition) at 5V (from the UART's end of things) and the
space condition is 0V and lasts for the entire bit period.

For the HP transceiver (and others I have looked at), the transmit
idles at 0V and you just need a 5V pulse of about 1.6us for each
space bit. I forget if the receiver idles at 5V or 0V, but in either
case you will just get a pulse, not a signal for the entire bit period.
Thats why I decided to use the Uart for RS232 and bit-bang the IRDA.

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2003\05\27@164053 by Talmage Wesley

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What kind of throughput were you expecting? 9600, 19200, etc?

-----Original Message-----
From: Talmage Wesley [spamBeGonetwesleyKILLspamspam@spam@TELEMOTIVE.COM]
Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 3:23 PM
To: PICLISTspam_OUTspam@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [PIC]: IRDA


What kind of throughtput were you expecting? 9600, 19200, etc?


Thanks
Talmage Wesley


-----Original Message-----
From: Brent Brown [spamBeGonebrent.brown@spam@spamCLEAR.NET.NZ]
Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 2:44 PM
To: RemoveMEPICLISTEraseMEspamKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [PIC]: IRDA


> I was wondering if anyone had experience working with a PIC and IrDA?
> I have seen some source code on the Web, and while it looks a bit more
> complex than regular serial, it doesn't look too bad.
>
> Can anyone suggest an easy-to-use IrDA module?  The Zilog ones seem ok
> to me.  Also, can anyone tell me about real-world ranges they get with
> an IrDA module?  And any pitfalls to avoid?

Have used the Microchip MCP2150 IrDA controller with the low power
Temic TFDU4201 module and PIC16F877. My part was just the hardware
design only, no software. We were a bit dissapointed with the overall
data throughput, but we were never sure if the bottlneck was the
MCP2150 or the overhead of IrDA.

Having said that, the setup was pretty easy to use as the MCP2150
takes care of the IrDA connection and protocol.

--
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16 English Street, Hamilton, New Zealand
Ph/fax: +64 7 849 0069
Mobile/txt: 025 334 069
eMail:  spamBeGonebrent.brownspam_OUTspamRemoveMEclear.net.nz

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2003\05\27@172119 by Rick Regan

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{Quote hidden}

Another option is to interface the UART to an MCP2120.
It converts UART data to IrDA data (and vice
versa).  In other words, it takes care of just the
IrDA physical layer and not the full-blown IrDA stack.


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2003\05\27@184425 by James Caska

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>Another option is to interface the UART to an MCP2120.

Does the MCP2120 handle the IRDA bidirectionally.. I can you send and
receive over the UART over the IRDA simulataneously...

For instance what I want to do is to send SLIP packets over the IRDA via
MCP2120 directly to the Serial port of the PC and use the direct
connection to create an internet link. Works now for the physical wire..
Would it just be as simple as plugging in a MCP2120 coupling.

While I am at it, does anyone know how to create a SLIP direct link
connection like in win2k/XP on a WinCE device? So you could point say an
IPAQ irda port at a IRDA/MCP2120/UART and fire SLIP packets into the
winCE Browser.

I have wanted to demo the muvium servlet webserver interacting with a
webbrowser on an irda/SLIP/WinCE/IPAQ for ages!

Any thoughts?

James Caska
http://www.muvium.com
uVM - 'Java Bred for Embedded'



{Original Message removed}

2003\05\27@195424 by Rick Regan

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--- James Caska <.....caskaspamRemoveMEVIRTUALBREADBOARD.COM> wrote:
> >Another option is to interface the UART to an
> MCP2120.
>
> Does the MCP2120 handle the IRDA bidirectionally.. I
> can you send and
> receive over the UART over the IRDA
> simulataneously...
>

According to the datasheet it looks like it's only
half duplex.

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2003\05\27@195639 by David VanHorn

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>
>According to the datasheet it looks like it's only
>half duplex.

IRDA is half duplex. Very hard to isolate the IR talk path from the IR listen path.

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2003\05\27@200509 by Robert Reimiller

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On Tue, 27 May 2003 23:43:35 +0100, you wrote:
>Does the MCP2120 handle the IRDA bidirectionally.. I can you send and
>receive over the UART over the IRDA simulataneously...
>
You aren't going to be able to do bidirectional with any kind of normal
IRDA that I'm aware of. The high intensity transmit light pulses will
swap the receiver.

>For instance what I want to do is to send SLIP packets over the IRDA via
>MCP2120 directly to the Serial port of the PC and use the direct
>connection to create an internet link. Works now for the physical wire..
>Would it just be as simple as plugging in a MCP2120 coupling.
>
Nope, you still need to add some synchronizing bytes (oxff) before the
start of each SLIP frame, typically on the order of 5-10ms of them
depending on the transceiver.

>While I am at it, does anyone know how to create a SLIP direct link
>connection like in win2k/XP on a WinCE device? So you could point say an
>IPAQ irda port at a IRDA/MCP2120/UART and fire SLIP packets into the
>winCE Browser.
>
Microsoft doesn't know how to implement standards. If you try to use
their "modem" drivers and select slip you can just start receiving
data like a normal Linux or Unix system. Their stupid driver sends out
some sort of string and expects something specific in the return, just
saw this someone, but forgot what it was. Of course, even if you get
past that, their slip isn't going to insert the synchronizing bytes.

For the windows based applications that I've written I've just opened
a serial port in binary mode and done my own SLIP framing and deframing.

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2003\05\28@065154 by Brent Brown

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Talmage Wesley wrote:
> What kind of throughtput were you expecting? 9600, 19200, etc?

Sorry, I don't recall the exact figures, but with a claimed 115200
baud IrDA link I think it was something less than what we could
otherwise get with a 9600 baud cable link. Figures from the data
sheet for the MCP2150 taking overheads and turnaround times into
account show typical throughput 62.7% with packets of 64 bytes size,
down to 2.6% for single byte packets (all at 115200 baud). The data
sheet explains fairly well what factors affect throughput, guess we
were just trying to use it with suitably inefficient packet sizes.

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'[EE]: IrDA and groundplanes'
2003\06\17@185609 by Alex Kilpatrick
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I have a simple "surboard" type gadget to mount an SMT IrDA module.  It
works fine, and when I send a 2 uS pulse, I get a 2 uS pulse on the
receiver.  However, I am also getting lots of glitches (false signals)
on the receiver.  With my logic analyzer, it looks like about 30 a
second or so.  Capacitors don't seem to help.
I read in the specs that I need a groundplane, which I really don;t know
much about.  To experiment, I soldered a big chunk 'o copper (about 1/2
square) to the ground pin.  That didn't seem to help.  I tried propping
a big piece of copper *behind* the board.  That seems to completely
reject the noise, and I only get my proper signals.
Can someone tell me basically what is going on here?  I though
groundplanes were just needed for RF antennas.  Also, can someone tell
me the proper way to lay this out on a circuit board?  Would it be just
a big pad around the ground pin, and then copper on the reverse side?
Thanks!
Alex

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2003\06\17@191033 by David VanHorn

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>
>Can someone tell me basically what is going on here?  I though
>groundplanes were just needed for RF antennas.  Also, can someone tell
>me the proper way to lay this out on a circuit board?  Would it be just
>a big pad around the ground pin, and then copper on the reverse side?

Zilog's app notes are pretty good on this.
The purpose of the plane is to provide low impedance return paths for the currents.  You're switching relatively large currents fast, and that's always a recipe for trouble.

You also need the decoupling caps, and yes you do need that many, and as shown.

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2003\06\17@192908 by Alex Kilpatrick

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>
> Zilog's app notes are pretty good on this.
> The purpose of the plane is to provide low impedance return
> paths for the currents.  You're switching relatively large
> currents fast, and that's always a recipe for trouble.
>
OK, but why do you need copper underneath the board?  That shouldn't
have anything to do with current flow.

> You also need the decoupling caps, and yes you do need that
> many, and as shown.
>
Maybe you have different app notes than I have.  The one I have just
shows one .33 uF cap.

Alex

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2003\06\17@194155 by David VanHorn

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At 06:28 PM 6/17/2003 -0500, Alex Kilpatrick wrote:

>>
>> Zilog's app notes are pretty good on this.
>> The purpose of the plane is to provide low impedance return
>> paths for the currents.  You're switching relatively large
>> currents fast, and that's always a recipe for trouble.
>>
>
>OK, but why do you need copper underneath the board?  That shouldn't
>have anything to do with current flow.

EMI shield, thermal dissipation. Lots of things going on here.
My existing PCB has three IRDA transcievers, and no problems on the first cut.

>> You also need the decoupling caps, and yes you do need that
>> many, and as shown.
>>
>
>Maybe you have different app notes than I have.  The one I have just
>shows one .33 uF cap.

Zilog AN009101-0501
They didn't say as much as I thought I remembered.. It's been about 6 months since I designed this bit..

I have a 0.1uF at LEDA, two 9.1 ohm 0603 R's in parallel, then another 0.1uF local. The VCC supply is locally decoupled with 0.1uF, and each feeds from a 220uF, with 10 ohms between the IRDA vcc lines and system VCC. Those run on separate tracks to the board's VCC entry point.

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2003\06\17@200225 by Alex Kilpatrick

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> >>
> >
> >Maybe you have different app notes than I have.  The one I have just
> >shows one .33 uF cap.
>
> Zilog AN009101-0501
> They didn't say as much as I thought I remembered.. It's been
> about 6 months since I designed this bit..
>
> I have a 0.1uF at LEDA, two 9.1 ohm 0603 R's in parallel,
> then another 0.1uF local. The VCC supply is locally decoupled
> with 0.1uF, and each feeds from a 220uF, with 10 ohms between
> the IRDA vcc lines and system VCC. Those run on separate
> tracks to the board's VCC entry point.
>
I'm using the ZHX1820.  It doesn't show any of that stuff on the design
notes.

http://rocky.digikey.com/WebLib/Zilog/Web%20Data/ZHX1820.pdf

Alex

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'[PIC]: IrDA bit protocol issue'
2003\07\02@120553 by Alex Kilpatrick
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I am using an IrDA module as a small, low power IR transceiver.  I'm not
doing any of the IrDA protocol stuff.
With an IrDA module, all pulses are ~ 1.6 us long, not matter what the
data rate.  I have something that works fine, but I am having problems
with noise rejection.  Here is the issue:
A start bit is a pulse
A zero is a pulse
A one is no pulse
So, in pulses, 0xFF looks like this:  | _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _   (start bit
pulse, eight periods of no pulse, followed by a stop bit, which is also
no pulse)
Doing regular RS-232 over IR, I could reject noise by measuring the
length of the pulse.  However, with a 4 Mhz PIC, all I can do is capture
a pulse.  So, I can't tell the difference between 0xFF and just a noise
pulse.  I am communicating at 9600, so my pulses are 104 uS apart.  I
was thinking about changing the idea of a stop bit to be three
sequential pulses within that period.  It seems like that would help
with most (if not all) of the spurious noise.
Anyone have any experience in this area, or suggestions?
Thanks!
Alex

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2003\07\02@131452 by Alex Kilpatrick

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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Alex Kilpatrick
> Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2003 11:05 AM
> To: EraseMEPICLISTRemoveMEspamSTOPspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject: [PIC]: IrDA bit protocol issue
>
>  
> communicating at 9600, so my pulses are 104 uS apart.  I was
> thinking about changing the idea of a stop bit to be three
> sequential pulses within that period.  It seems like that
> would help with most (if not all) of the spurious noise.
>  
It turns out that making a stop bit an actual pulse instead of a lack of
a pulse seems to fix the noise issue.  It isn't kosher RS-232, but that
is ok by me.  Making the stop bit a pulse seems to provide a clear bit
boundary, which helps with these small pulses.  
One thing I noticed with the IrDA modules is that simply placing my
finger about 1/2" away (not touching anything) from the face induces a
lot of noise on the receiver.  My breadboard design is not to spec, so
this may be part of the problem.  Hopefully, a proper PCB layout will
help fix the problem.


Alex

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2003\07\02@140554 by Talmage Wesley

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IrDA modules typically need about 4.7uF at 3mm from the Vcc.  This may help!


Talmage Wesley
Telemotive Industrial Controls

{Original Message removed}

2003\07\02@141218 by Talmage Wesley

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Actually 0.33uF would work!



-----Original Message-----
From: Talmage Wesley [RemoveMEtwesleyKILLspamspamTakeThisOuTTELEMOTIVE.COM]
Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2003 1:09 PM
To: spamBeGonePICLISTspam@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [PIC]: IrDA bit protocol issue


IrDA modules typically need about 4.7uF at 3mm from the Vcc.  This may help!


Talmage Wesley
Telemotive Industrial Controls

-----Original Message-----
From: Alex Kilpatrick [RemoveMEAlexKspam_OUTspamHCITRAINING.COM]
Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2003 12:13 PM
To: PICLISTspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [PIC]: IrDA bit protocol issue


{Quote hidden}

It turns out that making a stop bit an actual pulse instead of a lack of
a pulse seems to fix the noise issue.  It isn't kosher RS-232, but that
is ok by me.  Making the stop bit a pulse seems to provide a clear bit
boundary, which helps with these small pulses.

One thing I noticed with the IrDA modules is that simply placing my
finger about 1/2" away (not touching anything) from the face induces a
lot of noise on the receiver.  My breadboard design is not to spec, so
this may be part of the problem.  Hopefully, a proper PCB layout will
help fix the problem.


Alex

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2003\07\02@150920 by Alex Kilpatrick

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Right.  I have that, but on my hacked up breadboard module, it may not
be ideal.

In any case, it doesn't actually solve the problem.  *Any* glitch will
be interpreted as a start bit, since I am only looking for a 1.6 uS
pulse.  And any start bit followed by nothing will be a 0xFF.
A capacitor might help remove glitches, but it won't eliminate them.

Alex

> {Original Message removed}

2003\07\02@152042 by Tim ODriscoll

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On Wed, 2 Jul 2003, Alex Kilpatrick wrote:
> It turns out that making a stop bit an actual pulse instead of a lack of
> a pulse seems to fix the noise issue.  It isn't kosher RS-232, but that
> is ok by me.  Making the stop bit a pulse seems to provide a clear bit
> boundary, which helps with these small pulses.
>
Have you tried Manchester encoding the bytes? I also find that some IR
receivers need a pulse a few milli-seconds long to start-up/tune-into the
bit train.


> One thing I noticed with the IrDA modules is that simply placing my
> finger about 1/2" away (not touching anything) from the face induces a
> lot of noise on the receiver.  My breadboard design is not to spec, so
>
It could be the heat from your finger radiating in the form of infra red.

HTH,

Tim

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2003\07\02@164541 by Alex Kilpatrick

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> >
> Have you tried Manchester encoding the bytes? I also find
> that some IR receivers need a pulse a few milli-seconds long
> to start-up/tune-into the bit train.
>
>
This is an IrDA module.  It only outputs a pulse 1.6 uS long, no matter
what you feed it.

I don't think manchester encoding would work, since I can't do a rising
or falling edge with them, just a pulse.

I guess I could potentially do something like one pulse is a zero, and
two pulses is a one.  That might help with synchronization and noise.

> It could be the heat from your finger radiating in the form of infra
red.

I hadn't thought of that.  I suspect you are right.

Alex

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'[AVR]: IrDA message selection from a menu'
2003\09\04@125821 by Doug Hewett
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Eventually the primary will be a Palm and the secondary an ATmega128.  9600 baud.

During development the primary will be a PC.  I would like a PC application where the user can select a message (e.g. XID) from a menu and send it.  (I think this step-wise approach may be simpler than the 'big bang'.)

Using Codewright in hex I simulated an XID message:

unsigned char   cFF3F[ ] =
   {
   0xFF, 0xC0,                 // typical XBOF, BOF
   0xFF, 0x3F, 0x01, 0x00,     // 00 - 03
   0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0xFF,     // 04 - 07
   0xFF, 0xFF, 0xFF, 0x00,     // 08 - 11
   0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00,     // 12 - 15
   0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00,     // 16 - 19
   0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00,     // 20 - 23
   0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00,     // 24 - 27
   0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00,     // 28 - 31
   0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00,     // 32 - 35
   0x7E, 0xF8,                 // 36 - 37 XCRC
   0xC1, 0xFF                  // typical EOF, XBOF
   };


Then, running Hyperterminal, I sent this as a text (i.e. not XMODEM, etc.) file.  The application's state machine detects XBOFs, the BOF, the CRC, etc., and moves the data into the stack's buffer.

The next step is to replace the null modem cable with IR transceivers.  (The PC's transceiver is a dongle.)

However I need an application that allows me to select a message (e.g. XID)  from a menu and send it.

How can I do this?

Thanks,

Doug Hewett, CSDP

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'Infrared / IrDA Communications'
2003\09\09@090548 by 8859-9?B?1m1lciBZYWxo/Q==?=

I have a project which uses mcp2120 and vishay TFDU4100 IR Transceiver.  The project is completed and everything is working wonderfully.  I am able to communicate with the PC (through the Microchip MCP2120 development board) send and receive data very fast (9600 baud)

Now I am porting the PC code to PSION workabout handheld and having some problems.  Psion sends the information via IrDA port, and the my pcb is able to read this correctly and send a response (35 bytes @9600 baud).  However, PSION is not able to read the coming data correctly.  Especially the 0x00 and 0xFF bytes.  I have read all the IR related subjects on the PICList since 7/23/2002, still, I have couple of questions, if anyone has experience with the IR communication:

1. I have read on the list that 0xFF is used for syncronization, does that mean I cannot send 0xFF byte?
2. What is the ideal pocket size?  Should I send 8 bytes, wait, send 8 bytes, etc.?
3. When the PC sending the exact same data my pcb is sending to the PSION, PSION is able to read ALL the data from the PC (with MCP2120 dev board connected) including 0xFFs and 0x00s.  Also, the pcb is able to send and receive all the data to and from the PC.  However, the pcb and the PSION have problems.  PSION sends 6 bytes, the pcb receives, pcb sends 35 bytes, but PSION does not receive them correctly.



Sorry for the lengthy message,

Any help is greatly appriciated,

Omer YALHI
oyalhispam_OUTspamteksan.com.tr
http://www.teksan.com.tr

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2003\09\09@102752 by Vmer Yalh}

flavicon
face
-> added the tag <-

I have a project which uses mcp2120 and vishay TFDU4100 IR Transceiver.
The project is completed and everything is working wonderfully.  I am
able to communicate with the PC (through the Microchip MCP2120
development board) send and receive data very fast (9600 baud)

Now I am porting the PC code to PSION workabout handheld and having some
problems.  Psion sends the information via IrDA port, and the my pcb is
able to read this correctly and send a response (35 bytes @9600 baud).
However, PSION is not able to read the coming data correctly.
Especially the 0x00 and 0xFF bytes.  I have read all the IR related
subjects on the PICList since 7/23/2002, still, I have couple of
questions, if anyone has experience with the IR communication:

1. I have read on the list that 0xFF is used for syncronization, does
that mean I cannot send 0xFF byte?
2. What is the ideal pocket size?  Should I send 8 bytes, wait, send 8
bytes, etc.?
3. When the PC sending the exact same data my pcb is sending to the
PSION, PSION is able to read ALL the data from the PC (with MCP2120 dev
board connected) including 0xFFs and 0x00s.  Also, the pcb is able to
send and receive all the data to and from the PC.  However, the pcb and
the PSION have problems.  PSION sends 6 bytes, the pcb receives, pcb
sends 35 bytes, but PSION does not receive them correctly.



Sorry for the lengthy message,

Any help is greatly appriciated,

Omer YALHI
RemoveMEoyalhiKILLspamspam@spam@teksan.com.tr
http://www.teksan.com.tr

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2003\09\09@103827 by David VanHorn

flavicon
face
At 05:28 PM 9/9/2003 +0300, Vmer Yalh} wrote:

>-> added the tag <-
>
>I have a project which uses mcp2120 and vishay TFDU4100 IR Transceiver.
>The project is completed and everything is working wonderfully.  I am
>able to communicate with the PC (through the Microchip MCP2120
>development board) send and receive data very fast (9600 baud)
>
>Now I am porting the PC code to PSION workabout handheld and having some
>problems.  Psion sends the information via IrDA port, and the my pcb is
>able to read this correctly and send a response (35 bytes @9600 baud).
>However, PSION is not able to read the coming data correctly.
>Especially the 0x00 and 0xFF bytes.  I have read all the IR related
>subjects on the PICList since 7/23/2002, still, I have couple of
>questions, if anyone has experience with the IR communication:
>
>1. I have read on the list that 0xFF is used for syncronization, does
>that mean I cannot send 0xFF byte?

not sure on that one, but i can find out.

>2. What is the ideal pocket size?  Should I send 8 bytes, wait, send 8
>bytes, etc.?

the limit is 2kbytes.  larger packets are usually better.

>3. When the PC sending the exact same data my pcb is sending to the
>PSION, PSION is able to read ALL the data from the PC (with MCP2120 dev
>board connected) including 0xFFs and 0x00s.  Also, the pcb is able to
>send and receive all the data to and from the PC.  However, the pcb and
>the PSION have problems.  PSION sends 6 bytes, the pcb receives, pcb
>sends 35 bytes, but PSION does not receive them correctly.

is your pulse width too wide

irda uses a 1/3 width pulse for '1'.

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2003\09\09@111331 by =?us-ascii?Q?Omer_Yalhi?=

flavicon
face
>is your pulse width too wide
>
>irda uses a 1/3 width pulse for '1'.

Well, in contrast to that, I have added 10ms delay after each character,
and now the PSION is succesfully receiving the first 33 bytes of the 35
bytes sent.  I tried to send 37 bytes, it received 33 bytes.  I sent 33
bytes, it received 31 bytes!

PSION seems to be playing a practical joke to me, I hope I am not on a
hidden camera!!!

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'[EE]: Porting IrDA stack to microprocessor.'
2003\09\11@173913 by Doug Hewett

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Has anyone ported the IrDA stack to a microprocessor?

Thanks,
Doug Hewett, CSDP

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2003\09\11@183917 by David VanHorn

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At 02:37 PM 9/11/2003 -0700, Doug Hewett wrote:

>Has anyone ported the IrDA stack to a microprocessor?

http://www.actisys.com

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2003\09\12@103506 by Mike Hord

picon face
Look at Microchip's MCP2150/MCP2155.  These 18-pin chips use an
11.0592 MHz crystal to run a mini-"processor" which handles the IrDA
stack.  Just present the data and wait for a response.

Mike H.

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'[EE]: IrDA, monitoring test equipment, recommendat'
2003\09\15@165157 by Doug Hewett

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Any recommendations or suggestions for monitoring the communication between a primary and a secondary at 9600?

Thanks,

Doug Hewett, CSDP

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'[EE]: MB IrDA header, again'
2003\10\23@142537 by Mike Hord
picon face
I have an IrDA header on my motherboard (an ABIT KT7-RAID).
It seems to be mainly just a serial port which runs at 5v, and has
no control lines, just RX and TX (and +5V and GND, of course!).

In the BIOS, it has three settings:  Disabled, HPSIR, and ASKIR.
Disabled is pretty obvious, but what are the other two?  I've
found a number of places saying to use HPSIR, as ASKIR will
break your transceiver module, but that still doesn't give me
much useful info.

I'm guessing ASKIR means amplitude shift keying, which means
that the output of the TX line will be some frequency of pulses
modulated by my digital data.  Great for IR transmission, not so
great if I want to talk to a PIC.

So what, then, is HPSIR?  Plain ol' serial?

Note that I have been unable to find any reference to any of
these things on the IRDA.org website.  They seem to be
less than willing to produce data about the IrPHY layer.

Mike H.

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'[PIC] implementing IrDA standard on PIC18 '
2005\01\06@213643 by p.cousens
flavicon
----- Message from Woodward.Jimspamspameim-co.com on Thu, 6 Jan 2005 11:43:47
-0600 -----


         To: RemoveMEpiclistspamBeGonespamRemoveMEmit.edu



    Subject: [PIC] implementing IrDA standard on PIC18





Has anyone on this list implemented an IrDA stack in firmware on the
PIC18?
Does anyone know of any good 3rd party ANSI C library code for
implementing
an IrDA stack (preferably with a reasonable fixed licensing fee and no
royalty payment structure)?  Any good advice or comments about designing
this into a product that needs to be able to interface with PDA's and
Laptops on an IrDA standard link (including self-discovery that there is
an
IrDA device nearby).  I should also mention that the hardware design is
already complete and in the field and uses a Texas Instruments
TIR1000IPWR
IR transceiver chip (pin and function compatible to the Microchip
MCP2122
transceiver) and right now there is a key-chain FOB device that does IR
remote control through the IR link.   Therefore I do not think hardware
solutions that implement the IrDA stack in hardware, like the Microchip
MCP2155 will work because the remote control signals will not properly
do
the frame start signal correctly and I imagine the 2155 will ignore that
signal and not pass it onto the microcontroller (though I am considering
getting an MCP2155 developers kit to test what happens with the remote
control signal on this part).

Any advice or help would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks in advance!!

Best Regards,
Jim Woodward
Control Systems Engineer
EIM Controls Inc.
13840 Pike Rd.
Missouri City, TX 77489
Email: KILLspamwoodward.jimspamBeGonespameim-co.com
Phone: 281-261-3872

2005\01\10@011651 by onio (Nino) Benci

flavicon
picon face
part 1 2026 bytes content-type:text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii (decoded 7bit)

The kit is a good start, and reasonably cheap. Used it to develop an app
for the PALM platform. All source code is provided and it is very useful.

p.cousens wrote:

{Quote hidden}


part 2 466 bytes content-type:text/x-vcard; name=nino.benci.vcf; charset=utf-8
(decoded 7bit)

begin:vcard
fn:Antonio Benci
n:Benci;Antonio
org:Monash University;School of Physics & Materials Engineering
adr:Clayton Campus;;Building 27;Clayton;VIC;3168;Australia
email;internet:spam_OUTelectronic.servicesSTOPspamspamspme.monash.edu.au
title:Professional Officer / Electronic Services Manager
tel;work:+613 9905 3649
tel;fax:+613 9905 3637
tel;cell:+61414924833
x-mozilla-html:FALSE
url:http://www.spme.monash.edu.au
version:2.1
end:vcard



part 3 35 bytes content-type:text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
(decoded 7bit)


'[EE]: Irda controller during 'disable' mode'
2005\03\07@150925 by Rick Thompson
picon face
Good day!

I've got a MCP2150 IRDA controller on a board hosted by a 16F876A and am not
sure of data direction registers while the 2150 is disabled.  The
application is to be used in a very noisy environment.  The 2150 will be in
shutdown mode during the "noisy" time to conserve battery power.  What I
don't know is what the state of the output pins of the 2150 are while it is
disabled.  Do they go into a high impedance mode requiring me to set the
input pins of the 876 as output?  Should they be driven high or low?

For noise immunity purposes during the noisy time:
a) Would I be better to leave the pins on the controller from the 2150 (RX,
CTS, etc.) as inputs? (seems to me like 2 input devices connected...bad for
noise) or
b) Set them as outputs and drive them low or high (don't know which way if
so) and then set them as inputs only when the 2150 is to be enabled, then
back to outputs when transmission is complete?
c) other suggestions?

I have series resistors inline anyway to protect the devices should I try
both ways, but I would like to know the proper procedure so as to avoid
lengthy testing.  And I couldn't find anything in the 2150 datasheet that
says one way or the other.  It says that the device draws up 10uA while not
enabled.  So, that makes me think I should drive the pins from the
microcontroller side to avoid noise entering the 876.  And if I drive the
pins the wrong way, it may consume excess current which is also what I want
to avoid.

It's a little confusing to me and any help would be greatly appreciated.

Rick




'[OT] irDA interface - UART required?'
2006\01\10@100534 by alan smith
picon face
A two part question.
 
 First, looking at providing an irDA interface to a current project, simply to get data not to transmit.  Is there a simple, inexpensive device that folks have had good luck using.?
 
 Second, I assume the data stream is serial coming from these, so is it easier to use a UART, or is the stream slow enough and not really running a baud rate, not to need to use that?  I also have a RS232 port attached, so I would need a dual uart part then


               
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2006\01\10@100601 by alan smith

picon face
A two part question.
 
 First, looking at providing an irDA interface to a current project, simply to get data not to transmit.  Is there a simple, inexpensive device that folks have had good luck using.?
 
 Second, I assume the data stream is serial coming from these, so is it easier to use a UART, or is the stream slow enough and not really running a baud rate, not to need to use that?  I also have a RS232 port attached, so I would need a dual uart part then


               
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2006\01\10@134227 by Mike Hord

picon face
>   First, looking at providing an irDA interface to a current
> project, simply to get data not to transmit.  Is there a
>simple, inexpensive device that folks have had good luck using.?

I've heard good-ish things about Microchip's offerings in this
arena.  They have a chip which essentially needs only an
oscillator and a transceiver, handles all the overhead and
takes/produces a standard logic-level async serial stream.
Also has DCE/CD/etc. pins for easy use.

Can't recall the part number off hand- MCP2150?

Mike H.

2006\01\10@170050 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> I've heard good-ish things about Microchip's offerings in this
> arena.  They have a chip which essentially needs only an
> oscillator and a transceiver, handles all the overhead and
> takes/produces a standard logic-level async serial stream.
> Also has DCE/CD/etc. pins for easy use.
>
> Can't recall the part number off hand- MCP2150?

and you'd need the IR chip, like
http://www.voti.nl/shop/p/IR-IRDA-1.html :)

Wouter van Ooijen

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docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu



'[EE] IRDA here to stay?'
2011\06\03@111724 by Sean Breheny
face picon face
Hi all,

I am about to design a product which will be in use for at least 10
years and needs a medium range (about 50cm max) free-space optical
data link, low speed (under 9600 bps is fine - even 1200 bps would be
acceptable). The product contains both sides of the link so it does
not have to communicate with standard products. It needs to be robust
to a fair amount of dust (up to a 1cm layer of paper dust) and be able
to work in normal ambient room light (i.e., not outdoors).

I prototyped a solution using a microcontroller, IR LED, and IR
phototransistor and FSK modulation which seems to work well although I
have not tested it yet under all of the relevant conditions (e.g.
dust).

However, a co-worker of mine pointed out that it would be nice to use
an off-the-shelf IRDA module, which would have the side benefit of
allowing this optical interface to be used also as a debugging port
for the product, since IRDA would be easily capable of much higher
data rates.

I am a bit concerned about designing in IRDA, though, since I do not
see it commonly used anymore in consumer devices. I wonder if it is
going obsolete and may be difficult to source components for it in,
say, 3 or 5 years from now. I searched the web and haven't found
anything definite about the future of IRDA - wikipedia seems to
indicate that its popularity is being revived by something called
"irSimple" which seems to be a variant of IRDA. Also, I found articles
which indicate that it is still widely used in consumer products in
Japan. I found that Digikey and Mouser both seem to have plenty of
stock of IRDA offerings from several manufacturers.

What is your opinion? Is IRDA going to be around for at least 5 more
years or is it disappearing quickly?

Thanks,

Sea

2011\06\03@113441 by Herbert Graf

picon face
On Fri, 2011-06-03 at 11:17 -0400, Sean Breheny wrote:
> What is your opinion? Is IRDA going to be around for at least 5 more
> years or is it disappearing quickly?

It's always hard to predict the future. IMHO IRDA has already mostly
disappeared. Very few devices still have an IRDA port. It's been pretty
much usurped by bluetooth.

It is still used alot for debug/programming ports on things like
electrical meters.

Personally, I'd avoid designing something with IRDA and instead use
wireless. If you are stuck with optical then perhaps you can just buy
enough modules so you'll never have to worry about them no longer being
available?

TTYL

2011\06\03@114234 by Mike Harrison

flavicon
face
On Fri, 3 Jun 2011 11:17:23 -0400, you wrote:

{Quote hidden}

I wouldn't be too concerned about IRDA parts disappearing, they're fairly cheap, so assuming you buy
from someone that will warn you of imminent obscolesecence, , you should get enough warning to do a
lifetime buy.
Something else to consider is IR remote receivers - cheap, good for up to about 2-4kbits, tons of
range and IR remote controls aren't going away any time soon.

2011\06\03@114952 by William \Chops\ Westfield

face picon face

On Jun 3, 2011, at 8:36 AM, Herbert Graf wrote:

> I'd avoid designing something with IRDA and instead use wireless.

At like 5 to 10x the price and complexity!?

I think that the "IRDA modules" that you might be worried about  disappearing are not so complicated that they couldn't be duplicated  in discrete components with little more effort than your home-brew IR  comm scheme...

BillW

2011\06\03@115657 by Charles Craft

picon face
On 6/3/2011 11:17 AM, Sean Breheny wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I am about to design a product which will be in use for at least 10
> years and needs a medium range (about 50cm max) free-space optical
> data link, low speed (under 9600 bps is fine - even 1200 bps would be
> acceptable). The product contains both sides of the link so it does
> not have to communicate with standard products. It needs to be robust
> to a fair amount of dust (up to a 1cm layer of paper dust) and be able
> to work in normal ambient room light (i.e., not outdoors).
>
>    
Is that 1cm or 1mm of dust?
Did my wife send you the specs for my office

2011\06\03@120244 by alan.b.pearce

face picon face
> > What is your opinion? Is IRDA going to be around for at least 5 more
> > years or is it disappearing quickly?
>
> It's always hard to predict the future. IMHO IRDA has already mostly
> disappeared. Very few devices still have an IRDA port. It's been pretty
> much usurped by bluetooth.

If this is the case, why do so many of the newer Microchip PIC24 devices have IRDA capability on their serial ports ... ??
-- Scanned by iCritical.

2011\06\03@120453 by Michael Watterson

face picon face
On 03/06/2011 16:17, Sean Breheny wrote:
> What is your opinion? Is IRDA going to be around for at least 5 more
> years or is it disappearing quickly?
>
It's never had much use and is an overkill for what you need. I thought it was dead now (replaced by Bluetooth) though my phone and laptop have it. The range on most is less than 30cm usually. Some are only 10cm, though 5m is possible.

Use an 38KHz IR RX as used in TVs and set-boxes.
It can manage 1200bps with range of 5m to 10m

You use Manchester encoding and 38kHz clock. The very cheap IR RX gives filtered decoded TTL. No complex SW stack needed as per IRDA. IRDA is also a two way protocol, you only need one direction? (If you need two directions just have IR LED and IR RX at both ends).

Virtually all the remote controllers are pre-programmed very basic PICs

2011\06\03@124630 by Oli Glaser

flavicon
face
On 03/06/2011 16:17, Sean Breheny wrote:
> What is your opinion? Is IRDA going to be around for at least 5 more
> years or is it disappearing quickly?
>

I think it has obviously become far less popular, with the advent of bluetooth and stuff.
However, I don't think it will disappear altogether for quite some time, there are still plenty of applications that are more suited to an easily implemented, cheap, line of sight solution (for which RF would be overkill)
Even if it did disappear, as noted I'm sure you could quite easily conjure up your own. I doubt very much this would be needed though - I know it's not quite the same , but look at e.g. RS232, USB, SPI, I2C etc, has been around for ages but it is still reasonably common and ICs available.
Hard to be certain, but I'm betting on it being good for a while (as long as remotes use the technology anyway..)
I think I would go for it.

2011\06\03@131610 by Mike Harrison

flavicon
face
On Fri, 03 Jun 2011 17:04:36 +0100, you wrote:

>No complex SW stack needed as per IRDA.

You don't need to implement the stack if you just want simple 2-way comms between your own hsradware
- with an IRDA-capable UART it's like URAT with more error sources. It can be bit-bashed if your
UART doesn't have IRDA support

2011\06\03@133059 by Herbert Graf

picon face
On Fri, 2011-06-03 at 08:49 -0700, William "Chops" Westfield wrote:
> On Jun 3, 2011, at 8:36 AM, Herbert Graf wrote:
>
> > I'd avoid designing something with IRDA and instead use wireless.
>
> At like 5 to 10x the price and complexity!?

5-10x?

Wireless modules can be had for a few bucks each, I don't know what the
price of an IRDA module is, but I'll give you that on price.

Complexity? It's pretty trivial to drive a wireless module, in fact the
algorithms used are pretty similar to what you'd do with an optical
connection, so complexity? The same IMHO.

TTYL

2011\06\03@134706 by doug metzler

picon face
Can you give me an example of a few $ wireless module?

DougM

On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 10:32 AM, Herbert Graf <RemoveMEhkgrafspamspamgmail.com> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

>

2011\06\03@135412 by Sean Breheny

face picon face
Thanks to everyone for their replies.

I think RS-232 is a valid comparison, although the more troubling
thing about IRDA is that it needs not only an IC or two but also the
optical components, so it isn't just a matter of a single IC like an
RS-232 level converter. My gut feeling therefore is that RS-232 will
outlive IRDA.

You heard correctly that I must be able to deal with 1 centimeter of
dust. This is because the two halves of the link are one above the
other so that the TX side is part of a horizontal surface and will
collect dust. Yes, I also only need unidirectional comms.

This is in an environment where several of these devices could be in
close proximity to each other and there cannot be crosstalk between
them - which is why I am opting for optical instead of RF.

Sean


On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 12:45 PM, Oli Glaser <TakeThisOuToli.glaserspamspamRemoveMEtalktalk.net> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>

2011\06\03@135750 by Michael Watterson

face picon face
On 03/06/2011 17:45, Oli Glaser wrote:
> Hard to be certain, but I'm betting on it being good for a while (as
> long as remotes use the technology anyway..)

Almost no remotes use IRDA
They use 36KHz to 40KHz OOK with Manchester encoding, and one way.

Similar modules for 433Mhz (or 315MHz USA) can use the same SW and only $2 more expensive

2011\06\03@135758 by doug metzler

picon face
how is light going to get through a cm of dust?  Is this pixie dust?

DougM


On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 10:54 AM, Sean Breheny <KILLspamshb7spamspamspam_OUTcornell.edu> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> > --

2011\06\03@135931 by Michael Watterson

face picon face
On 03/06/2011 18:46, doug metzler wrote:
> Can you give me an example of a few $ wireless module?
>
> DougM
>
> On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 10:32 AM, Herbert Graf<EraseMEhkgrafSTOPspamspamRemoveMEgmail.com>  wrote:
>

OOK 315/433/868/915 MHz is very cheap and simple.
2.4Ghz is less cheap, simple and not so dear if not WiFi or BT

2011\06\03@141132 by doug metzler

picon face
This is where you get into the area of error correction, though.  very cheap
modules just push through bits and errors be damned.  bt and other modules
do your error correction for you, so what goes in is guaranteed to be what
comes out.

Thanks,

DougM


On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 10:59 AM, Michael Watterson <spam_OUTmikeRemoveMEspamEraseMEradioway.org>wrote:

> On 03/06/2011 18:46, doug metzler wrote:
> > Can you give me an example of a few $ wireless module?
> >
> > DougM
> >
> > On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 10:32 AM, Herbert Graf<TakeThisOuThkgrafRemoveMEspam@spam@gmail.com>  wrote:
> >
>
> OOK 315/433/868/915 MHz is very cheap and simple.
> 2.4Ghz is less cheap, simple and not so dear if not WiFi or BT.
>

2011\06\03@143654 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
On 3/6/2011 7:46 PM, doug metzler wrote:
> Can you give me an example of a few $ wireless module?

I sell RFM70 for $4.41 : http://www.voti.nl/shop/p/HF-RFM70-D.html

--
Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu

2011\06\03@144453 by Michael Watterson

face picon face
On 03/06/2011 19:11, doug metzler wrote:
> This is where you get into the area of error correction, though.  very cheap
> modules just push through bits and errors be damned.  bt and other modules
> do your error correction for you, so what goes in is guaranteed to be what
> comes out.

Even some quite expensive 2.4Ghz it's up to you to encrypt and add FEC.

Only if you have a module implementing a complete stack that has ECC included in spec gives automatic FEC and/or retrie

2011\06\03@144851 by Michael Watterson

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On 03/06/2011 18:57, doug metzler wrote:
> how is light going to get through a cm of dust?  Is this pixie dust?
>
> DougM
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 10:54 AM, Sean Breheny<EraseMEshb7RemoveMEspamcornell.edu>  wrote:

IRDA is a high speed protocol it likely won't.

with basic IR remote control you can use more power on LED (it's only an LED and you add your own driver) and it would only be 1200 bps on 38kHz OOK carrier.

Depends how tight packed the dust is, I'd not rule it out without a test

2011\06\03@145858 by Charles Craft

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On 6/3/2011 1:32 PM, Herbert Graf wrote:
{Quote hidden}

The dirt cheap modules probably aren't certified.
And the certified modules are suspect depending on how they're packed into the final product

2011\06\03@154727 by Robert Csaba Molnar

picon face
I would not worry about IRDA disappearing any time soon.
It's widely used in metering equipment (electricity/gas meters, etc) and other industrial products. I'm working with such equipment and, as a requirement, newly designed units have IRDA estimated lifetime is about 30 years. So , as far as I am concerned, IRDA is here to stay.

Kind Regards,
Robert Csaba Molnar



--- On Fri, 6/3/11, Charles Craft <spamchucksea.....spamspammindspring.com> wrote:

From: Charles Craft <chuckseaspam_OUTspam@spam@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [EE] IRDA here to stay?
To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <.....piclistspamspam.....mit.edu>
Date: Friday, June 3, 2011, 9:58 PM

On 6/3/2011 1:32 PM, Herbert Graf wrote:
{Quote hidden}

The dirt cheap modules probably aren't certified.
And the certified modules are suspect depending on how they're packed into the final product

2011\06\03@161421 by John Gardner

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Sean -

Will the budget allow a tiny servo/feather duster?

Rub

2011\06\03@162147 by Oli Glaser

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On 03/06/2011 18:57, Michael Watterson wrote:
> On 03/06/2011 17:45, Oli Glaser wrote:
>> Hard to be certain, but I'm betting on it being good for a while (as
>> long as remotes use the technology anyway..)
> Almost no remotes use IRDA
> They use 36KHz to 40KHz OOK with Manchester encoding, and one way.

Yes, your right, I got confused there.
I still think it will be around for a while though.

2011\06\03@205728 by M.L.

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On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 2:58 PM, Charles Craft <chuckseaKILLspamspamEraseMEmindspring.com> wrote:

> I think the complexity with wireless comes with understanding the FCC rules.
> The dirt cheap modules probably aren't certified.
> And the certified modules are suspect depending on how they're packed
> into the final product.


You're correct. The MRF24J40MA is one of the cheapest FCC certified
modules, at around $8 a piece (last I checked)
If you're going to sell 10,000 units you can go much cheaper by
rolling your own. Time to market will be longer.

-- Martin K

2011\06\04@171020 by Sean Breheny

face picon face
Oh don't be silly - I think the best solution would be to have a a
small bird tied to the device along with a photo of an owl. When the
link fails (presumably due to dust), a small linear actuator will
raise the photo of the own and play a "hoot" sound on a tiny speaker.
This will cause the bird to try to fly away - which will blow the dust
off. MUCH simpler and more elegant solution. :)

Sean


On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 4:14 PM, John Gardner <EraseMEgoflo3@spam@spam@spam@gmail.com> wrote:
> Sean -
>
> Will the budget allow a tiny servo/feather duster?
>
>  Rube
>

2011\06\04@180923 by Oli Glaser

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face
On 04/06/2011 22:10, Sean Breheny wrote:
> Oh don't be silly - I think the best solution would be to have a a
> small bird tied to the device along with a photo of an owl. When the
> link fails (presumably due to dust), a small linear actuator will
> raise the photo of the own and play a "hoot" sound on a tiny speaker.
> This will cause the bird to try to fly away - which will blow the dust
> off. MUCH simpler and more elegant solution.:)

Brilliant! Heath and Rube would be most impressed.
You would need to feed the bird of course, but that's a minor detail...

2011\06\04@182116 by Michael Watterson

face picon face
On 04/06/2011 23:09, Oli Glaser wrote:
> Brilliant! Heath and Rube would be most impressed.
> You would need to feed the bird of course, but that's a minor detail...

Can any avians digest cellulose?

Or keep a guinea pig. They can digest paper made from wood pulp. Newspapers do them no harm as long as they don't read them before eating.

2011\06\04@183217 by Oli Glaser

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face
On 04/06/2011 23:20, Michael Watterson wrote:
> On 04/06/2011 23:09, Oli Glaser wrote:
>> >  Brilliant! Heath and Rube would be most impressed.
>> >  You would need to feed the bird of course, but that's a minor detail....
> Can any avians digest cellulose?
> Or keep a guinea pig. They can digest paper made from wood pulp.

But they don't fly, which might impair the workings of the proposed device somewhat.. :-)

>
> Newspapers do them no harm as long as they don't read them before eating.
>

:-)

2011\06\04@184018 by John Gardner

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Well, unless you've got a line on small wampus cats, all
these critters have exhaust, as well as intake..

2011\06\04@193557 by Sean Breheny

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The guinea pig could be mounted to the device in such a fashion that
it would "outgas in the general direction" of the sensor, thereby
flushing it clear of all dust :)


On Sat, Jun 4, 2011 at 6:32 PM, Oli Glaser <@spam@oli.glaserspamspamKILLspamtalktalk.net> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>

2011\06\04@201327 by Peter Johansson

picon face
On Sat, Jun 4, 2011 at 6:09 PM, Oli Glaser <spamBeGoneoli.glaserRemoveMEspamEraseMEtalktalk.net> wrote:
> On 04/06/2011 22:10, Sean Breheny wrote:
>> Oh don't be silly - I think the best solution would be to have a a
>> small bird tied to the device along with a photo of an owl. When the
>> link fails (presumably due to dust), a small linear actuator will
>> raise the photo of the own and play a "hoot" sound on a tiny speaker.
>> This will cause the bird to try to fly away - which will blow the dust
>> off. MUCH simpler and more elegant solution.:)
>
> Brilliant! Heath and Rube would be most impressed.
> You would need to feed the bird of course, but that's a minor detail...

And something to clean up the bird droppings as well.  A yak hair
brush, perhaps?

-p

2011\06\05@183537 by Bob Axtell

face picon face
On 6/3/2011 8:56 AM, Charles Craft wrote:
> On 6/3/2011 11:17 AM, Sean Breheny wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I am about to design a product which will be in use for at least 10
>> years and needs a medium range (about 50cm max) free-space optical
>> data link, low speed (under 9600 bps is fine - even 1200 bps would be
>> acceptable). The product contains both sides of the link so it does
>> not have to communicate with standard products. It needs to be robust
>> to a fair amount of dust (up to a 1cm layer of paper dust) and be able
>> to work in normal ambient room light (i.e., not outdoors).
>>
>>
> Is that 1cm or 1mm of dust?
> Did my wife send you the specs for my office?
There is an almost-hidden defect in the IRDA module that is often overlooked: loss of
IR emitter intensity over time. If you need 10+ years of life, IRDA is the wrong device unless it is
used infrequently, like taking a meter  reading, or checking status monthly, etc.

Every time I tried to use an IRDA or a TV-style IR remote system, I was foiled by one thing
or another. Mostly the problem was loss of distance in sunlight. Works to 50m at night but
in daylight you are lucky to have one meter of distance.

--Bob

2011\06\05@184801 by Bob Axtell

face picon face
On 6/3/2011 10:32 AM, Herbert Graf wrote:
> On Fri, 2011-06-03 at 08:49 -0700, William "Chops" Westfield wrote:
>> On Jun 3, 2011, at 8:36 AM, Herbert Graf wrote:
>>
>>> I'd avoid designing something with IRDA and instead use wireless.
>> At like 5 to 10x the price and complexity!?
> 5-10x?
>
> Wireless modules can be had for a few bucks each, I don't know what the
> price of an IRDA module is, but I'll give you that on price.
>
> Complexity? It's pretty trivial to drive a wireless module, in fact the
> algorithms used are pretty similar to what you'd do with an optical
> connection, so complexity? The same IMHO.
>
> TTYL
>
Herbert, I agree completely.

I found a 2GB-band wireless module controlled by I2C complete with SPI interface
as well as a built-in antenna for $18 for a PAIR of modules. It has 154 channels, built-in
encryption/decryption and IN/OUT FIFO (32 character) buffers. Range is supposed to be
100m with the built-in antenna.

I'll let the list know how it goes when they get here from China.

--Bob

2011\06\05@185545 by Bob Axtell

face picon face
On 6/3/2011 10:32 AM, Herbert Graf wrote:
> On Fri, 2011-06-03 at 08:49 -0700, William "Chops" Westfield wrote:
>> On Jun 3, 2011, at 8:36 AM, Herbert Graf wrote:
>>
>>> I'd avoid designing something with IRDA and instead use wireless.
>> At like 5 to 10x the price and complexity!?
> 5-10x?
>
> Wireless modules can be had for a few bucks each, I don't know what the
> price of an IRDA module is, but I'll give you that on price.
>
> Complexity? It's pretty trivial to drive a wireless module, in fact the
> algorithms used are pretty similar to what you'd do with an optical
> connection, so complexity? The same IMHO.
>
> TTYL
>
Herbert, I agree completely.

I found a 2GB-band wireless module controlled by I2C complete with SPI interface
as well as a built-in antenna for $18 for a PAIR of modules. It has 154 channels, built-in
encryption/decryption and IN/OUT FIFO (32 character) buffers. Range is supposed to be
100m with the built-in antenna

2011\06\05@210000 by RussellMc

face picon face
Inductive coupling / "Near Field Communication" / NFC sounds close to ideal..
Can be used to power remote too if desired.
They say 4 cm range here but range can be metres if desired.

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near_field_communication

>  several of these devices could be in close proximity to each other

Depending on the value of "close", 50 cm is getting a bit far if you
have multiple units but if you can get the two closer together and
reduce available range then you can use N in closish physical
proximity. Dust no problem. Probably no certification issues either
(YMMV). Potentially low cost and simple.

Capacitive coupling also worth thinking about.


Russel

2011\06\05@230434 by Sean Breheny

face picon face
Hi Bob,

Interesting. I would guess that this issue of life is due to
overdriving the IR emitter with pulses of high current? or are you
saying that IR LEDs fail early even when operated at low to moderate
current?

Do you know where I could find more info on this? I may run into the
same problem with the "roll-your-own" solution.

I don't have to deal with direct sunlight as this is indoors only and
the direction of the transmission is vertical and the detector is
facing downward and covering the transmitter.

Sean


On Sun, Jun 5, 2011 at 6:35 PM, Bob Axtell <RemoveMEengineerKILLspamspamRemoveMEcotse.net> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>

2011\06\05@230522 by Sean Breheny

face picon face
Interesting idea, Russell, but at this point time is quite tight and I
don't think I could switch to NFC unless I were to use an
off-the-shelf solution. I already have an IR-based proto working.

Sean


On Sun, Jun 5, 2011 at 8:59 PM, RussellMc <TakeThisOuTapptechnzspamgmail.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>

'[EE] NFC is the cat's pajamas ...was: IRDA here'
2011\06\06@114817 by YES NOPE9

flavicon
face
Rzzzzzzzz mentioned NFC ( near field communications ) as a great emerging technology.   I predict that NFC will become super-ubiquitous.  It will be one of those "things" that everyone takes for granted.  "Touch an object" ( get your hand within 50cm of it ) and it will 'grok" you.

That said   ...... Is anyone on the guru list doing cool things with NFC ?

Best
99guspuppe

2011\06\06@131646 by Michael Watterson

face picon face
On 06/06/2011 16:47, YES NOPE9 wrote:
>   It will be one of those "things" that everyone takes for granted.  "Touch an object" ( get your hand within 50cm of it ) and it will 'grok" you.

I hope not. Because someone else will probably know too. Unless I'm doing stock control I can't imagine why I'd want this. There are some very nice stock systems that work up to 50cm with barcodes. Without the database the barcode is useless if it's a serial number. I'd like NFC devices to be totally dumb and only be an Unique Id. Then security is in your database, not in some public tag that will be cracked in several days/months/years and has to be replaced. Dumbest idea ever storing info on passports using NFC.  A gift to cloners, forgers and people that want to spy on you.

'[EE] IRDA here to stay?'
2011\06\06@204134 by RussellMc

face picon face
I noted -

> Capacitive coupling also worth thinking about.

but I don't think that anyone picked up on that.
It is easily implemented [tm], low cost and will easily achieve the
data rates desired.
The stated range requirement would be getting very hard to meet, but
if a much smaller range was tolerable then it may provide a very good
fit to the requirement.

   Russel

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