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PICList Thread
'16F84, surface mount, ICSP...'
1998\04\28@013503 by Jon Hylands

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Hello all,

I have decided in my application to use half a dozen 16F84's to interface
to a bunch of components.

However, space is very limited, so I want to use the surface-mount version
of the chip. I plan on programming them in circuit, and will provide a
four-pin header for each chip on the board. I plan on using RB6 & RB7 only
for programming, and so will not need to isolate them from the circuit
(since they will only go to the pins on the header).

The question is, how do I isolate Vdd? I was thinking along the lines of
running a trace from the Vdd pin directly to the power header pin, and to
the rest of the circuit through a diode. The diode would be mounted to
allow current to pass into the chip from the circuit power supply, but not
from the chip to the rest of the circuit when powered from the programmer.
Presumably, since the voltage drop would be about 0.6 volts, the power
running into the PIC from the 5 volt circuit supply would end up being 4.4
volts,  which is well within the limits.

Will this work? Is there a better way?

Thanks in advance...

Later,
Jon

--------------------------------------------------------------
  Jon Hylands      spam_OUTJonTakeThisOuTspamhuv.com      http://www.huv.com/jon

 Project: Micro Seeker (Micro Autonomous Underwater Vehicle)
          http://www.huv.com

1998\04\28@015611 by Dennis Plunkett

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face
At 05:32 AM 28/04/98 GMT, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

I don't understand the need to isolate VDD. Is the circuit in such a way
that there be no pull ups or downs from pins being driven by the PIC,
remember that the PIC should be in a RESET type state (All pins as inputs)
during the programming cycle.

Cone to think of it, you have control of the reset line to all the PICs, if
this is the case, then you should be able to hold the PICs not bing
programmed in RESET, and place RB6 and RB7 in //.

You do indicate a 4 pin header for each chip, so from this can we assume
that the reset lines are common? If you use the above, then control and
progamming should be simple. However! A seperate header for each will speed
up development as a stand alone programmer could be used.

Hope that this helps
Dennis

1998\04\28@051719 by g.daniel.invent.design

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Jon,
VDD is not the programming voltage pin; MCLR is, a 5 pin connector is
required.
Regards,
Graham Daniel

Jon Hylands wrote:
{Quote hidden}

1998\04\29@062546 by Marc Heuler

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Hi Jon (Jon Hylands), in <.....354667ad.11930787KILLspamspam.....mail.huv.com> on Apr 28 you wrote:

> The question is, how do I isolate Vdd? I was thinking along the lines of
> running a trace from the Vdd pin directly to the power header pin, and to
> the rest of the circuit through a diode. The diode would be mounted to
> allow current to pass into the chip from the circuit power supply, but not
> from the chip to the rest of the circuit when powered from the programmer.
> Presumably, since the voltage drop would be about 0.6 volts, the power
> running into the PIC from the 5 volt circuit supply would end up being 4.4
> volts,  which is well within the limits.
>
> Will this work? Is there a better way?

I don't think this is a good idea.  You wrote you have several PICs
interfacing to lots of peripherials.  When these peripherialy are powered
at 5.0V and output strong highs to the PIC, the PIC will be far beyond spec
(max input high voltage = VDD, see DC specs).  Probably it'll work, as the
protection diodes are 0.7V, too.  But it's definately not a good design.

Better:  Don't connect the 5V supply to the ISP header at all.  Require the
_circuit_ to supply power to the PICs also during programming.

Connect MCLR and RB6 and RB7 and GND to the ISP header.  Have all VDDs at
5V as normal in your circuit.  Tie each MCLR to its own PICs' VDD with a
5K1 resistor (as long as you don't have a power supply monitor chip in your
circuit).

1998\04\29@101559 by Jon Hylands

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On Wed, 29 Apr 1998 11:07:49 CET, Marc Heuler <EraseMEmarcspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTAARGH.MAYN.DE> wrote:

> I don't think this is a good idea.  

Right, hadn't considered that. Thanks.

> Connect MCLR and RB6 and RB7 and GND to the ISP header.  Have all VDDs at
> 5V as normal in your circuit.  Tie each MCLR to its own PICs' VDD with a
> 5K1 resistor (as long as you don't have a power supply monitor chip in your
> circuit).

Hmmm, is that going to be okay when the programmer pumps 13 volts through
MCLR? I guess that's what the 5K resistor is for...

Thanks for your input, I appreciate it.

Later,
Jon

--------------------------------------------------------------
  Jon Hylands      Jonspamspam_OUThuv.com      http://www.huv.com/jon

 Project: Micro Seeker (Micro Autonomous Underwater Vehicle)
          http://www.huv.com

1998\04\29@123230 by Morgan Olsson

picon face
...
> Presumably, since the voltage drop would be about 0.6 volts, the power
> running into the PIC from the 5 volt circuit supply would end up being 4.4
...
Maybe use a schottky diode?  Only 0.3V drop.

/Morgan
/  Morgan Olsson, MORGANS REGLERTEKNIK, SE-277 35 KIVIK, Sweden \
\  @spam@mrtKILLspamspaminame.com, ph: +46 (0)414 70741; fax +46 (0)414 70331    /

'More 16F84 ICSP... (for real this time)'
1998\04\30@094001 by Jon Hylands

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Hi all,

So I got tired of constantly popping the F84 out of its socket and into the
programmer, and decided to make an ICSP header on my test board, and rig a
cable to the programmer (the ITU PIC-1).

The problem I've run into is the oscillator. While the programmer is doing
its thing, it is supplying +5 to the F84, and the rest of the circuit,
which makes the oscillator do its thing, and thus the programming fails.

If I pop the oscillator out before programming, everything works fine.

Any suggestions on an easy (automatic) method to cut out the oscillator
while programming?

Later,
Jon

--------------------------------------------------------------
  Jon Hylands      KILLspamJonKILLspamspamhuv.com      http://www.huv.com/jon

 Project: Micro Seeker (Micro Autonomous Underwater Vehicle)
          http://www.huv.com

'16F84, surface mount, ICSP...'
1998\04\30@132527 by ashley

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Hi
I have used a 5pin header for in circuit programming .
I have used the blocking diode configuration for all five programming pins and
it seems to work  ok.
I only program when the power to the target board is disconnected.
ASH - UK -

on 28 Apr 98, RemoveMEg.daniel.invent.designTakeThisOuTspamxtra.co.nz wrote...

{Quote hidden}

'More 16F84 ICSP... (for real this time)'
1998\04\30@132539 by Andy Kunz

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>The problem I've run into is the oscillator. While the programmer is doing
>its thing, it is supplying +5 to the F84, and the rest of the circuit,
>which makes the oscillator do its thing, and thus the programming fails.

Have a loop-back connector that grounds the oscillator (OSC1 pin) when the
programming jack is connected.

Andy


==================================================================
Andy Kunz - Statistical Research, Inc. - Westfield, New Jersey USA
==================================================================

1998\04\30@151559 by David VanHorn

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face
>>The problem I've run into is the oscillator. While the programmer is doing
>>its thing, it is supplying +5 to the F84, and the rest of the circuit,
>>which makes the oscillator do its thing, and thus the programming fails.
>
>Have a loop-back connector that grounds the oscillator (OSC1 pin) when the
>programming jack is connected.


This is interesting. Our F84 system does not halt the clock, and so far we
have a 100% success rate.  8 mhz clock, FWIW

We did hit a snag early on, in that the cable used in normal operation plugs
into the same connector, and serial input (soft uart) was causing the uP
clock to halt for 200-300uS.  This was traced to capacitive coupling in the
cable, combined with the diode on MCLR taking the MCLR voltage above 5V.

Our current "operating" cables have that conductor missing :)

I would have done it differently, but the modular connector is already the
largest component on the board, and another connector was NOT an option.

1998\04\30@165223 by FVoelzke

picon face
> So I got tired of constantly popping the F84 out of its socket and into the
>  programmer, and decided to make an ICSP header on my test board, and rig a
>  cable to the programmer (the ITU PIC-1).
>
>  The problem I've run into is the oscillator. While the programmer is doing
>  its thing, it is supplying +5 to the F84, and the rest of the circuit,
>  which makes the oscillator do its thing, and thus the programming fails.
>
>  If I pop the oscillator out before programming, everything works fine.

Am I very wrong if I don't see the problem?
I don't know how your programmer works, but mine (one of these self
constructed & programmed prototype programmers) takes absolute control of the
MCLR voltage. In programming mode the voltage can be 0V or 13V, the same in
one of my big projects with ICSP abilities. I do this by setting a jumper from
running to programming position.
The newest programming spec for the PIC16F84 says: "The OSC must not have 72
osc clocks while the device MCLR is between VIL and VIHH." At my programming
method this never happens.
I think you use this little "typical in-system serial programming connection"
shown in the PIC databook which I found to be a bit too simple...
I can also imagine an ICSP connector on which you normally plug a jumper to
connect the MCLR pin to the normal reset circuit. While programming you pull
this jumper and connect the programming cable.

Hope it helped
Florian

ps: never programmed a PIC16F(!)84, only PIC16C84s because I haven't run out
of them yet.

1998\04\30@225206 by Jon Hylands

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On Thu, 30 Apr 1998 13:23:45 -0400, Andy Kunz <TakeThisOuTmtdesignEraseMEspamspam_OUTFAST.NET> wrote:

> Have a loop-back connector that grounds the oscillator (OSC1 pin) when the
> programming jack is connected.

Sounds like a good idea, but how do you do this? Sorry, I'm really not a
hardware guy, all this stuff is new to me...

Thanks,
Jon

--------------------------------------------------------------
  Jon Hylands      RemoveMEJonspamTakeThisOuThuv.com      http://www.huv.com/jon

 Project: Micro Seeker (Micro Autonomous Underwater Vehicle)
          http://www.huv.com

1998\04\30@230855 by Jon Hylands

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face
On Thu, 30 Apr 1998 16:32:07 EDT, FVoelzke <FVoelzkeEraseMEspam.....AOL.COM> wrote:

> Am I very wrong if I don't see the problem?
> I don't know how your programmer works, but mine (one of these self
> constructed & programmed prototype programmers) takes absolute control of the
> MCLR voltage.

Well, it's not the MCLR voltage that's causing the problem. It's Vdd, at 5
volts, that is powering the oscillator.

Later,
Jon

--------------------------------------------------------------
  Jon Hylands      EraseMEJonspamhuv.com      http://www.huv.com/jon

 Project: Micro Seeker (Micro Autonomous Underwater Vehicle)
          http://www.huv.com


'More 16F84 ICSP... (for real this time)'
1998\05\01@011653 by Mike Keitz
picon face
On Fri, 1 May 1998 02:28:54 GMT Jon Hylands <RemoveMEJonEraseMEspamEraseMEHUV.COM> writes:

>Well, it's not the MCLR voltage that's causing the problem. It's Vdd,
>at =
>5
>volts, that is powering the oscillator.

The problem is that MCLR doesn't rise fast enough.  If the oscillator is
running or external clock applied, MCLR can't stay in the "normal
operating" range (high enough to bring PIC out of reset, but too low to
enter programming mode) for too long.  If the PIC does enter programming
mode in time, it will ignore further oscillator inputs.  The
specification is 72 osc clocks (or, if the clock is very slow or stopped,
8 ms).  72 osc clocks are 18 us at 4 MHz.  This could be difficult to
achieve if there are capacitors connected to MCLR.


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1998\05\01@074956 by wouter van ooijen

picon face
Your problem is probably that the reset voltage rises too slow. The
required rise time is specified as the maximum number of elapsed clock
cycles, so removing the Xtal helps, but it does not address the real
problem. I've had this with my own programmer.
regards,
Wouter.

----------
> From: Jon Hylands <RemoveMEJonspam_OUTspamKILLspamHUV.COM>
> To: RemoveMEPICLISTTakeThisOuTspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject: More 16F84 ICSP... (for real this time)
> Date: Thursday, April 30, 1998 15:29
>
> Hi all,
>
> So I got tired of constantly popping the F84 out of its socket and into
the
> programmer, and decided to make an ICSP header on my test board, and rig
a
> cable to the programmer (the ITU PIC-1).
>
> The problem I've run into is the oscillator. While the programmer is
doing
{Quote hidden}

'16F84, surface mount, ICSP...'
1998\05\02@020706 by Jonathan

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       I am attempting the same thing, and am following the design
at:

http://www.ccc.nottingham.ac.uk/~cczsteve/pic/pic84.pdf

 and a similar design at:
http://www.ebar.dtu.dk/~c888600/icsp.htm

The diode from MCLR to Vcc (through the MCLR pullup) limits the
voltage during programming when MCLR is 13v.

On some dev. boards, the header has been implemented as an RJ-45
connector.

{Quote hidden}

Jonathan Cline
spamBeGonejclineSTOPspamspamEraseMEvision.calpoly.edu

1998\05\04@135251 by Josef Hanzal

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Hi Jon,

I use in circuit programming only, even with DIP packaged PICs. I hate to
extract/insert the chip milion times (16F84s are ideal for this, does not
even need  UV erase). You have to think about ICSP during the circuit desing
though. I use following setup: VDD and GND connected directly to programming
header, MCLR connected to header and thru 39K resistor to VDD, RB6 & RB7
connected to header. The last two pins can be used as outputs in my design,
since my programmer tristates its clock and data lines when the PIC is not
in programming mode (I am not familiar with other programmes, mine is a
home-brewed one). There is a slide swith in the programmer for +5V, so VDD
can be supplied either from the circuit or from the programmer.

There are several drawbacks in this approach. Nothing can be connected to
the MCLR pin, which does not withstand 13V, RB6 & 7 are limited to output
use only, the circuits connected to them have to tolerate the pulses during
programming (usually not a problem) and should not draw excess current (like
20 mA LED or optocoupler). You may also run into difficulties, when
verifying the PIC at different voltages (my programmer does not support this).

If your circuit can supply some 20-40 mA to the VDD pin during programming,
you need not to connect VDD to the header at all. Connect only GND, RB6, RB7
and MCLR instead of VDD.

Josef

> However, space is very limited, so I want to use the surface-mount version
> of the chip. I plan on programming them in circuit, and will provide a
> four-pin header for each chip on the board. I plan on using RB6 & RB7 only
> for programming, and so will not need to isolate them from the circuit
> (since they will only go to the pins on the header).

======================================================================
Electronical devices for chemical laboratory, custom electonics design
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Snail Instruments                     Josef Hanzal
Vojanova 615                          phone/fax: +420-311-24433
266 01 Beroun                         e-mail: KILLspameuroclassspamBeGonespampha.pvtnet.cz
Czech Republic                        URL: http://www.vitrum.cz/snail/
======================================================================


'Pic17C766 - ICSP'
1998\12\21@133752 by wsiemens
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These questions should probably go to Microchip, but someone on the list
might be able to help me quicker.

The data sheet for this device says that it has its own boot ROM. The
programming specs at "Planet Microchip" that I found only discribe how you
should develop your own boot load routine. But the data sheet says it allows
you to send commands via SPI for the boot ROM.
Has anyone used this yet and knows the protocol for this programming method?
Does anyone know it will just program the on board eprom or will it be able
to address external memory also?

Thanks

Wendall Siemens
Sr Electronics Engineer
Ryan Energy Technologies Inc.
(403) 203 - 5416
EraseMEwsiemensspamEraseMEryan-tech.com, http://www.ryan-tech.com


'about ICSP'
1999\04\23@141002 by engelec
picon face
Hi to all engineers.

I like to know when I program PIC in circuit besides
5 pins do I need to connect crystal too ?

Andre

1999\04\27@031955 by Caisson

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face
> Van: Andre Abelian <@spam@engelec@spam@spamspam_OUTearthlink.net>
> Aan: spamBeGonePICLISTspamKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Onderwerp: about ICSP
> Datum: vrijdag 23 april 1999 20:08
>
> Hi to all engineers.

Hello Andre,

> I like to know when I program PIC in circuit besides
> 5 pins do I need to connect crystal too ?

No !  One of the things stated in the documentation regarding programming a
PIC is that the rise-time of the Reset/Program-power pin should be fast
enough.  Why ?  Because if it isn't the crystal could generate a
Clock-pulse, forcing the Program-counter from address Zero to One (or even
beyond that).  That would mean that your program is not placed (programmed)
from address Zero, but from address One (or beyond).

It's one of the more common problems with ISP, because the cappacitance of
the Reset/Programming-line on combination with the drivers
output-resistance could form a R.C combination, causing this low rise-time.

Personally I think it's a good idea to connect the controllers/crystals
incoming pin to the Ground, disallowing any clock-puls generation (only do
this with crystals that can withstand the pic's supply-voltage !)

Greetz,
 Rudy Wieser

1999\04\27@122733 by w. v. ooijen / f. hanneman

picon face
> > I like to know when I program PIC in circuit besides
> > 5 pins do I need to connect crystal too ?
>
> No !  One of the things stated in the documentation regarding programming
a
> PIC is that the rise-time of the Reset/Program-power pin should be fast
> enough.  Why ?  Because if it isn't the crystal could generate a
> Clock-pulse, forcing the Program-counter from address Zero to One (or
even
> beyond that).  That would mean that your program is not placed
(programmed)
> from address Zero, but from address One (or beyond).

On the other hand, if you want to program in-circuit make sure that
your programmer works even when the highest frequency xtal is
connected!

Wouter.

1999\04\29@174427 by paulb

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face
Caisson wrote:

> Personally I think it's a good idea to connect the controllers/
> crystals incoming pin to the Ground, disallowing any clock-pulse
> generation (only do this with crystals that can withstand the pic's
> supply-voltage !)

 I'd be terribly surprised to find a crystal, even a "fork" one, which
would object to the supply voltage applied permanently (as against
being overdriven at the resonant frequency), but just in case, put a
jumper next to the crystal to *short it out* during ICP.

 I rather like the concept, for *production* units, of circle pads on
the PCB pattern and a "bed of nails" jig to program them.  Unit cost:
virtually nil, and no compromises in PCB layout including the crystal
region.

 The "bed of nails" itself could be a PCB with spring pins fitted (and
on which the programmer hardware is constructed) or even solid pins
mounted on "tongue" slot-outs on the PCB!
--
 Cheers,
       Paul B.


'multifunction ICSP programmer'
1999\09\12@135922 by Matt Burch
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face
Okay... I'm wondering, would anybody buy this product from us if we put it
into production? Basically I've gone and built a neat little intelligent
in-circuit programmer / power supply / debugging tool, allowing for
in-circuit programming of the 12/16/17Cxxx OTP parts, as well as in-circuit
programming and erasing of 16Fxxx parts. The box can also provide power to
the application circuit as well as RS232 tx/tx for debugging purposes, all
through a 5-pin connector. We built it for in-house use for our biosensor
telemetry work, but it could be cleaned up and produced commercially,
either as a naked board or in a nice little box. As a rough guess, we could
still probably make a little money on them if we sold them in the sub-$100
range... putting it midway between the DIY programmers (such as the myriad
AN589-based designs) and some of the more expensive commercial offerings,
as well making it a sort of poor-man's ICE system. Opinions, comments, and
questions are welcome.

Cheers,
mcb
-------------------------------------------------------------------
    Matt Burch      |  Pinnacle Technology   | tel: (785) 832-8866
 Project Engineer   | 619 E. 8th St. Suite D | fax: (785) 749-9214
.....mburchspam_OUTspampinnaclet.com |  Lawrence, KS  66044   |  http://www.pinnaclet.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------

1999\09\12@140751 by Matt Burch

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face
In response to my own posting:

>The box can also provide power to the application circuit as well as
>RS232 tx/tx for debugging purposes

...the above should of course read "RS232 tx/rx".

And yes, I realize that "ICSP programmer" is redundant. :)

Cheers,
mcb... off to the ATM machine  ;)
-------------------------------------------------------------------
    Matt Burch      |  Pinnacle Technology   | tel: (785) 832-8866
 Project Engineer   | 619 E. 8th St. Suite D | fax: (785) 749-9214
TakeThisOuTmburch.....spamTakeThisOuTpinnaclet.com |  Lawrence, KS  66044   |  http://www.pinnaclet.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------

1999\09\12@155455 by Jim Paul

picon face
Matt,

I would be interested in at least looking at it.  If you could detail some
of the functionality,
that would help.   What I'm  talking about here is specifically what does
the debugging
portion of it do for me and how does it do it?  Do you need any code above
the application
firmware in the target device to use the debugging portion of it, or do you
need anything
beyond that?  Let me know as I'm always in the market for development tools
for PIC's.


Thanks and Regards,


Jim
{Original Message removed}

1999\09\12@201549 by Matt Burch

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face
Hi Jim,

Basically it's a box that plugs into a PC parallel port and works with any
of the usual AN589-style programming utilities, such as prog84 and jpp877.
A 5-pin connector goes out to the circuit being programmed, and carries
power (3.3 or 5.0V selectable), ground, MCLR/Vpp, and the programming clock
and data lines (RB6/PGC and RB7/PGD for the '84). The PGC and PGD lines
also double as TTL-level RS232 tx/rx lines if desired (the box is smart
enough to disable the transceiver during a program operation). This I/O
goes out to a serial connector on the box for connection to your favorite
terminal.

If the circuit to be programmed is going to use its own power supply, all
you have to do is endure there's a diode between the PIC and your circuit's
reset circuitry, to protect it from the ~13V Vpp during programming. You
also have to be careful about what you're using RB6 and RB7 for, as
discussed in the ICSP guide from Microchip.

If the circuit to be programmed is going to use power supplied by the
programmer, care must be taken to ensure that it doesn't draw too much
power (unspecified right now but probably somewhere around 800mA). The
first board I designed to interface with this programmer (a serially-driven
graphics LCD controller) has a split supply: one small SMT regulator powers
the PIC, one big TO-220 regulator powers the rest of the circuit. This
greatly simplifies the process since the programmer only has to power up
the PIC and can ignore the rest of the circuit if it's properly isolated.

As for software on the PIC, there really is none required. The "debugging"
feature I mentioned refers to the hidden ability to send serial data to and
from the PIC firmware while it's being developed, so you can insert tx
commands at strategic points to let you see what the thing is doing. I
don't know how useful this will be to anyone else, but I personally use
this trick a lot.

Anyway, it seems to be a quite useful little device, and is almost as cool
as an ICE if you factor in the order of magnitude cost reduction. :)  No
real new technology here, just an interesting subset of various
presently-available development tools.

mcb



At 02:58 PM 9/12/99 -0500, Jim Paul wrote:
{Quote hidden}

-------------------------------------------------------------------
    Matt Burch      |  Pinnacle Technology   | tel: (785) 832-8866
 Project Engineer   | 619 E. 8th St. Suite D | fax: (785) 749-9214
TakeThisOuTmburchKILLspamspamspampinnaclet.com |  Lawrence, KS  66044   |  http://www.pinnaclet.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------

1999\09\14@080739 by Andres Tarzia

flavicon
face
Matt,

Could you point me in the right direction for finding information on this
"hidden" feature of the PIC firmware?
I've never seen it mentioned in any other place.

Thank you!

Regards,
Andres Tarzia
Technology Consultant, SMART S.A.
e-mail: .....atarziaspamRemoveMEsmart.com.ar


{Original Message removed}

1999\09\14@122008 by Matt Burch

flavicon
face
Andres,

Sorry to have been misleading: you are correct in that there are no secret
PIC functions hiding from you. :)  What I was referring to is the way my
programmer piggybacks RS232 signals onto the programming clock/data lines
when they are not in use, thus allowing the application circuit to
communicate (through the in-circuit programmer) with the computer where the
development is going on... so if you were going to sacrifice pins B6 & B7
anyway for ICSP use, you can use one or both of them for serial
communications back to the PC (configurable on the programmer side) for
debugging purposes. It's not as good as an ICE or ICD, but it is cheap and
easy and it sure beats keeping half a dozen /JW parts around for continual
erasing and reprogramming. The serial comms functionality especially has
proven quite useful for letting the application circuit tell the PC what
it's up to during development (one of the things I designed it to program
here in-house is a 0.5" square monitoring device that's too small to have
any unnecessary LEDs etc... difficult to debug!).

Anyway, it is a nice cheap & useful device to have in-house, and we are
considering producing a few for sale to see how well they go over.

Cheers,
mcb


At 09:10 AM 9/14/99 -0300, Andres Tarzia wrote:
{Quote hidden}

-------------------------------------------------------------------
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1999\09\14@132010 by Andres Tarzia

flavicon
face
Oh! I see.
Thanks for the explanation, anyway.

Regards,
Andres Tarzia
Technology Consultant, SMART S.A.
e-mail: TakeThisOuTatarziaspamspamsmart.com.ar


{Original Message removed}


'PS+ & ICSP'
1999\12\07@102916 by John A. Craft
flavicon
face
<x-flowed>MC sells a socket adapter for the ProMate for ICSP, no mention is made
about ICSP use for the PS+.  Can the PS+ be used to do ICSP?

John C.

</x-flowed>

1999\12\07@104215 by Octavio Nogueira

flavicon
face
No, it doesn't have enough current to drive the circuit!

Friendly Regards

Octavio Nogueira
===================================================
nogueiraEraseMEspampropic2.com                  ICQ# 19841898
ProPic tools - low cost PIC programmer and emulator
http://www.propic2.com
===================================================
-----Mensagem Original-----
De: John A. Craft <RemoveMEcraftEraseMEspamspam_OUTNCS-SSC.COM>
Para: <@spam@PICLISTRemoveMEspamEraseMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Enviada em: Tera-feira, Dezembro 07, 1999 01:31
Assunto: PS+ & ICSP


> MC sells a socket adapter for the ProMate for ICSP, no mention is made
> about ICSP use for the PS+.  Can the PS+ be used to do ICSP?
>
> John C.

'Defacto ICSP header connection standard?'
1999\12\11@042042 by quozl

flavicon
face
Summary: is there a convention for the in circuit programming pins?

Previously, with my hacking on the 8-pin and 18-pin DIP PICs, I've been
happy to pull the chip and place it into a programmer.  Now that I'm
embarking on a 40-pin DIP, I'd prefer to place a set of header pins on
my PCB and connect it to one of my programmers.

The DT-001 has ten pin, two rows of five, header position on the PCB.
My other programmers, by DIY electronics, don't have any such thing.

Unfortunately, due to my distance from any form of electronics shop, I'm
going to do things based on the parts I have ... and I only have single
row headers handy.

I've also realised that I have to somehow allow the programmer to power
the PIC while preferrably not powering the rest of the circuit.  I could
have a shorting header to enable or disable the propogation of Vdd to
the rest of the PCB from the PIC, but some day I'll forget.  If I use a
pin on the ICSP header at the PCB as the supply in to the PIC, then I'm
less likely to forget to replace the shorting header.

That makes the pins I need on the ICSP header ...

- Vdd from PCB
- Vdd to PIC
- Vss
- MCLR (not)
- PGD
- PGC
- PGM (do i really need this?)

And I would replace the cable with a shorting header between the Vdd's,
in order to RUN.

So, anyone seen a convention for the pins on a single row ICSP header?

--
James Cameron   EraseMEquozlspam@spam@us.netrek.org   http://quozl.us.netrek.org/


'Need informations about ICSP'
2000\03\14@003217 by Picsend
picon face
Hi,

I look for informations and advices about ICSP. Look informations for the
board side, not programmer side. I went to Microchip website and found only
two relevant answers using query form:
51113 pdf ICSP ä Socket Module User’s Guide
TB016 How to Implement ICSPâ„¢ Using PIC16F8X FLASH MCUs

At the end of the first PDF they speak about :
In-Circuit Serial Programming Guide without other indication.

Thanks for helping.
Dan

2000\03\14@040829 by Kevin Blain

flavicon
face
refer to DS30228G from the Microchip website / CDrom
----- Original Message -----
From: <@spam@Picsendspam_OUTspam.....aol.com>
To: <spamBeGonePICLISTEraseMEspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2000 5:08 AM
Subject: Need informations about ICSP


> Hi,
>
> I look for informations and advices about ICSP. Look informations for the
> board side, not programmer side. I went to Microchip website and found
only
{Quote hidden}

2000\03\14@041036 by Kevin Blain

flavicon
face
refer to microchip datasheet DS00656B from the website or CDrom
----- Original Message -----
From: <PicsendspamBeGonespamaol.com>
To: <RemoveMEPICLIST@spam@spamspamBeGoneMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2000 5:08 AM
Subject: Need informations about ICSP


> Hi,
>
> I look for informations and advices about ICSP. Look informations for the
> board side, not programmer side. I went to Microchip website and found
only
{Quote hidden}

2000\03\15@154301 by Andre Abelian

picon face
Dan,

I  programmed lots of  boards in circuit first boards I tried with crystal
installed
out of 15.000 boards I got 100 bad  then I tried without the crystal
installed
so far I programmed about 4000 boards all of them are passed 100%. My
circuit is
very simple add one diode to master clear pin serially and you are done with
it. you may
need to add another diode on VDD line all depend on how much load do you
have on +5.


Andre Abelian




> Hi,
>
> I look for informations and advices about ICSP. Look informations for the
> board side, not programmer side. I went to Microchip website and found
only
{Quote hidden}

2000\03\16@015428 by w. v. ooijen / f. hanneman

picon face
> I  programmed lots of  boards in circuit first boards I tried with
crystal
> installed
> out of 15.000 boards I got 100 bad  then I tried without the crystal
> installed
>  so far I programmed about 4000 boards all of them are passed 100%. My
> circuit is

That is a familiar symptom: the MCLR rises too slow. when there are too
much clock cycles in the rise time the chip has already advanced its
location counter and ISP will fail. With a better MCLR driver there should
be no problem...

Wouter


'[PIC]: Programming PIC16F876 via ICSP using PICSta'
2000\08\16@103512 by David Kott
flavicon
face
   Dear PICListers,

   I am attempting to program a PIC16F876 soldered on a PCB with a
PICStart+ and an adapter cable.  I get serious programmer errors when
attempting to program my soldered SO part.

   The adapter cable consists of an IC socket, some 5" wires soldered to
some of the, ostensibly correct, pins and a 5 pin housing which connects to
a matching header on my circuit board.

The pins I have brought out to my programming header are as follows:

RB7        Soldered to pin 28 of my IC socket adapter.
RB6        Soldered to pin 27 of my IC socket adapter.
MCLR    Soldered to pin 1 of my IC socket adapter.
Vss (System ground.  This pin connects to both pin 8 and pin 19 of my SO
package on the PCB)    Soldered to pin 8 of my IC socket adapter.
Vdd (System power)    Soldered to pin 20 of my IC socket adapter.

In other terms:

ICSP Header         IC Programming adapter
RB7  ------------- Pin 28
RB6 ------------- Pin 27
MCLR ------------- Pin 1
Vss ------------- Pin 8
Vdd ------------- Pin 20


   I don't have anything else soldered onto the PCB;  Only the PIC and the
programming header are on the circuit board currently.  Therefore, there are
no other parts to pull current away from the programmer.  There are also no
bias resistors present to affect any of the signal pins, programming or
otherwise.

   The PICStart+ programmer programs PIC16F876 DIP parts when placed in the
programmer itself.  Additionally, I bent back pins on a DIP part
corresponding to those pins I am not bringing out to my ICSP header on my
PCB.  Thus, these bent pins would not contact the programmer's ZIF socket
contacts when the IC is placed in the programmer.  I connected the two
ground pins (Pin 19 and Pin 8) with a bit of wire and some soldering, as
this more closely duplicated the connections I have on my PCB with the SO
part.  This DIP part was then placed into the programmer, and subsequently
programmed successfully.

   I beeped out my programming adapter and my PCB.  The entire system, from
SO part on the PCB to the ZIF socket on the programmer, has continuity
between the proper pins, point to point.

I posted a 61K JPEG of my PCB, the IC programming adapter, and the modified
DIP '876 that worked at

http://dakott.dhs.org/mirror/ICSP_Problem01.jpg

and a larger image (856K) of the same at

http://dakott.dhs.org/mirror/ICSP_Problem02.jpg

   However, I get serious programmer errors when attempting to program my
in situ SO package via my ICSP header and the IC programming adapter.  The
error report is as follows:

--------------------

PICSTART Plus Error Log File
16-Aug-2000, 09:48:16

Device Type: 16F876

Errors during programming.  Configuration bits not programmed.


Program Memory Errors

Address  Good  Bad

0000:    3000  0000
0001:    008A  0000
0002:    2818  0000
0004:    3021  0000
0005:    0084  0000
0006:    1383  000F
0007:    0800  0000
0008:    1903  0000
0009:    2817  0000
000A:    3006  0000
000B:    00F8  0000
000C:    01F7  0000
000D:    0BF7  0000
000E:    280D  0000
....
001B:    0583  0000
001C:    309F  03FF
001D:    0084  0000
001E:    1383  0001
001F:    3007  0000
0020:    0080  0000
Any additional errors are not displayed.

----------

I had done this successfully before, with a 16F84.  I prototyped the ICSP
header and IC adapter before, on a breadboard.  The programmer worked just
fine then.

Has anyone ever done anything like this before?

Can you think of anything that I might be doing wrong?

Can you suggest some things to try?

Sincere thanks, in advance,

David Kott

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2000\08\16@150751 by David Kott

flavicon
face
> >     Dear PICListers,
> >
> >     I am attempting to program a PIC16F876 soldered on a PCB with a
> > PICStart+ and an adapter cable.  I get serious programmer errors when
> > attempting to program my soldered SO part.
> >
>

Thanks to some "right on" personal replies, my problem has been mitigated.

The issue appears to be that the PIC16F876's are prepped at the factory to
be programmed via the LVP method.  To defeat this behavior, the RB3 pin must
be grounded when programming the device for the first time, if one is to use
standard programming voltages of around 13 volts, or so.
After the first successful programming, the RB3 pin need not be grounded to
program the chips in system.

My thanks to PICLister Andy for pointing this out, and solving my problem.
:-)

I would not have expected this behavior.  Quoting from the "PIC16F8XX EEPROM
Memory Programming Specification", section 2.3:

"The program/verify mode is entered by holding pins RB6 and RB7 low while
raising MCLR pin from VIL to VIHH (high voltage). In this mode, the state of
the RB3 pin does not effect programming."(c)

Clearly, however, it does depend on the state of RB3.

Did they mean to say "affect" programming?  Evidently, pin RB3 doesn't
effect programming at all.  It does quite the opposite, it precludes
programming when programming using the "high voltage" programming method.

-d

(c) Microchip Technology Inc.

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'[PIC]: Using Picstart Plus for ICSP'
2000\09\15@043559 by staff
flavicon
face
Hi, don't know if this will help anyone, but on the main
tech.microchip forum I saw a few people asking about using
a picstart plus (PSP) to give in-circuit programming (ICSP)
of applications using flash chips like 16F84 ad 16F877 etc.

With the help of two guys that posted there who had done it
before I was able to get it happening pretty easy, and thought
I might post details here for reference of anyone (especially
newbies to ICSP) who might want to do this at some point.

----------------------------------------------
How to use Picstart Plus to do ICSP (on 16F84)
----------------------------------------------
Firstly I made a simple header. This is a long-legged 18pin
socket to go into the PSP, with four wires soldered to it.

Here are the wires:

* Gnd (Vss) -----       ground wire
* MCLR      --R--       470 ohm series resistor
* RB7       --R--       470 ohm series resistor
* RB6       --R--       470 ohm series resistor

These connect to the same PIC pins on the app, in my case
I designed the app board with the 470 ohm resistors on the
board and a nice plug for the ICSP.

Important, I used no capacitors on the app on the MCLR
pin. I just used a 68,000 ohm resistor to hold the MCLR
high to 5v when in normal operating mode. This is very simple,
and has low parts cost.

To program the app, I simply connected power to it (via
a on/off switch) from my regular power source not from
the PSP. The PSP does NOT power the amp or the pic when
programming in this circuit. I connected the ground from
the PSP to the ground of the app's power supply of course.

One the app was powered, the PSP holds the app in reset
mode as it holds the MCLR pin at 0v. Then I used MPLAB
as normal to program or read the 16F84 in the app. This
works as normal, like when programming a 16F84 in the
socket of the PSP.

When programming is complete I can just switch the app
power off, unplug the programming plug, and switch the
app power back on to run the app as normal. Quick and easy!

Just a couple of notes, app's that use a "reset" chip on
the MCLR line may need to make some changes to ensure that
the PSP can draw the MCLR line to 13v very quickly to
ensure good programming. Also my app used the RB7 and RB6
as inputs, so also using these for the ICSP gave no problems.
I tested adding 10k resistors to both these pins to 0v,
and tested again with the 10k resistors to 5v. Both cases the
ICSP still worked fine. I would guess that means that you
don't need to "buffer" these pins but simply use a 10k
resistor to your circuit and you can still use them as inputs.

I have programmed the thing with a number of 16F84 chips,
and programmed it a couple of hundred times with NO program
or read failures (unless I forget to switch the app on
before programming!).

I know this is a long letter and I apologise to the PIC
experts who probably know all of this, just seen a few
newbies ask about ICSP lately and not everyone has the
budget or desire to spend big bucks on ICSP.
YES, you CAN do ICSP with a picstart plus.

Roman

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2000\09\15@215032 by Bruce Cannon

picon face
I like the switch idea.  But for quick and dirty, I've been doing it for
prototypes for years without a switch (fifth wire to Vdd) where there's not
much current use on the target board.  And if there's really not much
current use at all, and those pins drive high-impedance loads, no resistors
either.  My PSP has never complained.  Also doing without a header on the
target by using a probe clamp for access to the pins (when DIP chip).

Bruce Cannon
Style Management Systems
http://siliconcrucible.com
(510) 787-6870
1228 Ceres ST Crockett CA 94525

Remember: electronics is changing your world...for good!

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2000\09\27@192935 by Vlado Kecman

flavicon
face
Thanks to Roman, David and other people to introduce me with this matter.

My experience using the Picstart Plus for ICSP applied on the PIC16F873
is following:

The five standard ICSP signals (Vdd, GND, MCLR, RB6, and RB7) are
connected from the board to the programmer. Power Vdd from programmer is
separated from Vcc on the board with a Schottky diode.  MCLR has pull-up
10K via a diode (1N4148) and Cap 0.01uF to the GND.

1. Picstart Plus (Firmware V.2.01.00)

Programmer always uses Vihh (13V) for programming and does not control
pin RB3.  I thought    LVP enable  implies low voltage programming mode
but it only determines LVP config bit.  For this mode in the PIC16F87X
Spec is noted:
The high voltage programming mode is always available, regardless of the
state of the LVP bit, by applying Vihh to the MCLR pin.

2. LVP Enable programming (LVP config. bit is set)

RB6 and RB7 are set as output. Programming works w/ or w/o pull-up or
pull-down resistors.
Programmer does not care for RB3, but it can not be used in application.
I set it as output and pull down with 10K. If I leave it to float,
despite it is set as output, PIC will be very sensitive to any
disturbances. Touching with finger pushes PIC somewhere (program modes?)
after it passes reset and recovers to work. In this case RB6, RB7 are set
as output with 33K pull-ups?  WDT is disabled.

3. LVP Disable (LVP bit is cleared)

I have no any problem with this mode. RB3 is used by my application. RB6
and RB7 could be used but I don t need them. They are set as output with
pull-up 33K, and 1K toward input.

4. Conclusion

- High voltage programming mode is very convenient. LVP bit can be
cleared or set how much time you want but once it is cleared only high
voltage programming mode is available. Changing LVP bit actually has only
effect on the application possibility to use or not use RB3 pin.
- If you do not really need LVP mode, disable it.  You will get one pin
more and less worry about unwilling program/verify mode.
- LVP disable mode does not release you from possibility to go into
unwilling program mode. Spikes from solenoid in my application sometime
push PIC into undefined mode because of high sensitivity of the MCLR
pin.  I can not apply a 5V transzorb (Vihh=13V), but a Cap.  0.01uF can
help by now.  Good protection of the MCLR pin has also to meet driving
capability of the programmer.

Regards,
Vlado Kecman

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'[PIC]: ICSP'
2000\09\28@174741 by Tony Nixon

flavicon
picon face
Hi all,

Can someone point me towards some information about the circuitry and
what ever else is required for ICSP.

I want to have a 'play' in this area.


--
Best regards

Tony

ICmicro's
http://www.picnpoke.com
.....salesRemoveMEspampicnpoke.com

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2000\09\28@205526 by Andy Howard

picon face
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Nixon" <Tony.NixonEraseMEspam@spam@ENG.MONASH.EDU.AU>
To: <RemoveMEPICLISTspamspamBeGoneMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2000 10:45 PM
Subject: [PIC]: ICSP


> Hi all,
>
> Can someone point me towards some information about the circuitry and
> what ever else is required for ICSP.
> I want to have a 'play' in this area.

By coincidence when I read your message I'd just finished reading the
microchip document 30277B.pdf which is a compilation of their various App
Notes and Tech Briefs about ICSP.  It has pretty much everything you need to
know to implement it, albeit in a lengthier form than perhaps is strictly
necessary.

I'm thinking of adding an ICSP socket to a future product for field upgrades
so I'd be interested to hear if you find any gotchas when you come to play
with it.





.

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2000\09\28@220403 by Dan Michaels

flavicon
face
Andy Howard wrote:
.........
>I'm thinking of adding an ICSP socket to a future product for field upgrades
>so I'd be interested to hear if you find any gotchas when you come to play
>with it.
>

I talked with Jeff of melabs a few weeks ago about using the
EPIC programmer for ICSP, and the major gotcha he mentioned was
regarding the exact cktry tied to /MCLR pin on the PIC. You have
to make sure you can pull the pin high fast enough [goes to current
drive out of the programmer], and also that the programmer doesn't
affect Vcc by backfeeding thru the /MCLR ckt.

Apparently, on some marginal P/S designs, Vpp can pull up the Vcc
bus. Maybe low current regulators, whatever. I did try this and
found Vpp actually kicked up the output of a 7805 [1A v.reg] a
couple of tenths of a volt. Have to watch the size of the pullup
resistor on /MCLR - ie, not too low - if that is all you have
on the pin. If you put a cap there, then you may not be able to
pull the pin up fast enough.

best regards,
- Dan Michaels
Oricom Techonlogies
http://www.sni.net/~oricom
==========================

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2000\09\28@225156 by Andy Howard

picon face
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Michaels" <spamBeGoneoricom@spam@spamUSWEST.NET>
To: <RemoveMEPICLISTEraseMEspamKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Friday, September 29, 2000 3:04 AM
Subject: Re: [PIC]: ICSP


> Andy Howard wrote:
> .........
> >I'm thinking of adding an ICSP socket to a future product for field
upgrades
> >so I'd be interested to hear if you find any gotchas when you come to
play
{Quote hidden}

Thanks for that Dan, the Vpp/Vcc interaction looks like a classic gotcha.
I'll certainly look out for that one.
In the Mchip documents they suggest fitting a Schottky diode between the R-C
junction and the MCLR/Vpp pin to isolate the capacitor and resistor.

















.

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2000\09\29@004553 by Dan Michaels

flavicon
face
Andy Howard wrote:
> .........
>Thanks for that Dan, the Vpp/Vcc interaction looks like a classic gotcha.
>I'll certainly look out for that one.
>In the Mchip documents they suggest fitting a Schottky diode between the R-C
>junction and the MCLR/Vpp pin to isolate the capacitor and resistor.
>


On the diagram that comes with the EPIC programmer, they show
Vpp straight thru to /MCLR, which has a 10K pullup R to Vcc
with a 1N4148 diode in series [pointing at the /MCLR pin,
of course]. For normal ops, this would put a little under
5v on /MCLR. I haven't tried it, but imagine they did.

- dan michaels

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2000\09\29@053212 by Michael Rigby-Jones

flavicon
face
{Quote hidden}

We have incorporated this on a product in development and it works just
fine.  The our ICSP socket can be used for either programming or for the
ICD, very usefull.

Mike

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2000\09\29@054500 by staff

flavicon
face
Andy Howard wrote:
{Quote hidden}

==========================================================
I posted this before, you are welcome to it. If you don't have
access to a picstart plus programmer and don't want to spend
the $250 AU for one, search for NOPPP "no parts pic programmer"
on the net. It has a few cheap parts and all source code and
description of how it works.

-Roman

==========================================================
Hi, don't know if this will help anyone, but on the main
tech.microchip forum I saw a few people asking about using
a picstart plus (PSP) to give in-circuit programming (ICSP)
of applications using flash chips like 16F84 ad 16F877 etc.

With the help of two guys that posted there who had done it
before I was able to get it happening pretty easy, and thought
I might post details here for reference of anyone (especially
newbies to ICSP) who might want to do this at some point.

----------------------------------------------
How to use Picstart Plus to do ICSP (on 16F84)
----------------------------------------------
Firstly I made a simple header. This is a long-legged 18pin
socket to go into the PSP, with four wires soldered to it.

Here are the wires:

* Gnd (Vss) -----       ground wire
* MCLR      --R--       470 ohm series resistor
* RB7       --R--       470 ohm series resistor
* RB6       --R--       470 ohm series resistor

These connect to the same PIC pins on the app, in my case
I designed the app board with the 470 ohm resistors on the
board and a nice plug for the ICSP.

Important, I used no capacitors on the app on the MCLR
pin. I just used a 68,000 ohm resistor to hold the MCLR
high to 5v when in normal operating mode. This is very simple,
and has low parts cost.

To program the app, I simply connected power to it (via
a on/off switch) from my regular power source not from
the PSP. The PSP does NOT power the amp or the pic when
programming in this circuit. I connected the ground from
the PSP to the ground of the app's power supply of course.

One the app was powered, the PSP holds the app in reset
mode as it holds the MCLR pin at 0v. Then I used MPLAB
as normal to program or read the 16F84 in the app. This
works as normal, like when programming a 16F84 in the
socket of the PSP.

When programming is complete I can just switch the app
power off, unplug the programming plug, and switch the
app power back on to run the app as normal. Quick and easy!

Just a couple of notes, app's that use a "reset" chip on
the MCLR line may need to make some changes to ensure that
the PSP can draw the MCLR line to 13v very quickly to
ensure good programming. Also my app used the RB7 and RB6
as inputs, so also using these for the ICSP gave no problems.
I tested adding 10k resistors to both these pins to 0v,
and tested again with the 10k resistors to 5v. Both cases the
ICSP still worked fine. I would guess that means that you
don't need to "buffer" these pins but simply use a 10k
resistor to your circuit and you can still use them as inputs.

I have programmed the thing with a number of 16F84 chips,
and programmed it a couple of hundred times with NO program
or read failures (unless I forget to switch the app on
before programming!).

I know this is a long letter and I apologise to the PIC
experts who probably know all of this, just seen a few
newbies ask about ICSP lately and not everyone has the
budget or desire to spend big bucks on ICSP.
YES, you CAN do ICSP with a picstart plus.

Roman

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2000\09\29@073437 by Jim Robertson

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face
At 08:43 PM 29/09/00 +1000, you wrote:

Piclisters,

After reading Roman's useful stuff below please consider
this question...

Would it be useful to anyone if the adapter below could be
used for ALL ICSP PICs with the picstart plus. In other
words no need to make up separate adapters for different
pinouts.

I had this feature in the recently released warpcore driver
but I removed it at the last minute as I didn't want people
forgetting to turn this mode off to program normally again.

I have a similar feature on the WARP-13 as it has a purpose
fitted ICSP port.

Speak-up if you are interested and I will re-enable this
option.

-Jim



{Quote hidden}

Regards,

Jim Robertson
NEWFOUND ELECTRONICS
Email: spamBeGonenewfoundspam@spam@pipeline.com.au
http://www.new-elect.com
MPLAB compatible PIC programmers.

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2000\09\29@085011 by John Gerthoffer

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Make SURE you use signal isolation.  We have LCD data lines connected to the
pins used for ICSP clock and data.  Originally it wasn't a problem.  Over
time, certain situations would really create havoc.  In our case, we put a
1K series resistor in between the PIC and the LCD.  Simple, but effective.


John Gerthoffer
Software Engineer
American Auto-Matrix, Inc.
Smart Building Solutions


{Original Message removed}

2000\09\29@090901 by David Kott

flavicon
face
>
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Can someone point me towards some information about the circuitry and
> > what ever else is required for ICSP.
> > I want to have a 'play' in this area.
>
> By coincidence when I read your message I'd just finished reading the
> microchip document 30277B.pdf which is a compilation of their various App
> Notes and Tech Briefs about ICSP.  It has pretty much everything you need
to
> know to implement it, albeit in a lengthier form than perhaps is strictly
> necessary.
>
> I'm thinking of adding an ICSP socket to a future product for field
upgrades
> so I'd be interested to hear if you find any gotchas when you come to play
> with it.

I posted this recently in reply to a PIClister who asked about the
differences between programming a 'C63 and an F873.

There are gotchas with the F87X series that ICSPers should be aware of.
Namely, the 'F87X's come prepped from the factory with "Low Voltage
Programming" mode enabled.  When this mode is enabled, you *must* bias pin
RB3 low to allow the device to be programmed with the LVP bit off,
specifically
using the "high voltage" programming method.  This is not, IMHO, intuitively
obvious when referencing Microchip documentation.

However, as soon as you successfully program the flash device with a
configuration word set with Low Voltage Programming disabled, you
don't need to bias the RB3 pin when you subsequently program the
device, thus a 5 pin ICSP connector will suffice.

My programming adapter cable consists of an IC socket, some 5" wires
soldered
to some of the socket pins and a 5 pin housing which connects to
a matching ICSP header on my circuit board.

The pins I have brought out to my programming header are as follows:

RB7        Soldered to pin 28 of my IC socket adapter.
RB6        Soldered to pin 27 of my IC socket adapter.
MCLR    Soldered to pin 1 of my IC socket adapter.
Vss (System ground.  This pin connects to both pin 8 and pin 19 of my SO
package on the PCB)    Soldered to pin 8 of my IC socket adapter.
Vdd (System power)    Soldered to pin 20 of my IC socket adapter.

In other terms:

ICSP Header         IC Programming adapter
RB7  ------------- Pin 28
RB6 ------------- Pin 27
MCLR ------------- Pin 1
Vss ------------- Pin 8
Vdd ------------- Pin 20

Normally, my PICStart cannot power my entire circuit.  So, I merely enable
my circuit's system power before attempting to connect the PICStart to my
circuit.

You may elect to not connect system power to your ICSP header, however I
strongly suggest that you standardize your ICSP header in your organization,
and provide all 5 signals on it.  You may subsequently choose to not
populate the Vdd power pin on your PICStart plus adapter if you feel this is
not necessary.  The high voltage programming method doesn't require that a
programmer cycle the power to the PIC in order to program it.  However, I
*do* believe that Low Voltage programming *does* require that the power be
cycled to place the processor in that mode.

Since I use my PICStart plus to program my 'F87X's devices with "high
voltage programming mode" I don't need to export RB3 to an ICSP header.
However, I *do* have to bias that pin low the very first time I use it.  My
PCB has a 100K resistor to do just that.

So, the options are thus:
   Export your RB3 pin to your ICSP programming header to allow the
programming method to be set by the programmer, and allow LVP.
OR
   bias pin RB3 low the *first* time you attempt to program the processor
using the "high voltage" programming mode.  Subsequent programming
must be using the "high voltage" programming method.

My first attempts at ICSP with these devices failed namely because I hadn't
biased RB3 properly.  I simply read the Microchip EEPROM Memory Programming
Specification:

"The program/verify mode is entered by holding pins
RB6 and RB7 low while raising MCLR pin from VIL to
VIHH (high voltage). In this mode, the state of the RB3
pin does not effect programming." (c)

However, reading further:

"...an erased device will have the LVP bit
enabled at the factory." (c)

and:

"To disable low voltage ICSP mode, the LVP bit must be
programmed to '0'. This must be done while entered
with high voltage entry mode (LVP bit= 1). RB3 is now
a general purpose I/O pin." (c)

However, my boards program properly via my 5 way ICSP header now that I have
gotten past this "feature" of the F87X family.

See the Microchip "EEPROM Memory Programming Specification" and "How to
Implement ICSP Using PIC16F8X FLASH MCUs", Tech Brief  TB016 at
http://www.microchip.com/Download/Appnote/Category/PIC16/91016b.pdf

-d

(c) Microchip Technology Inc.

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2000\09\29@091111 by staff

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face
Jim Robertson wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Jim, I don't understand how you could make this work?
Using the PicstartPlus I use MPLAB for the programmer
software, how would you make different pinouts work
with the 18 pin size only? Confused!
-Roman







{Quote hidden}

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'[PICLIST] PicStart + and ICSP'
2000\10\11@122628 by Mark Skeels
picon face
Can anyone think of a reason why I cannot use a PicStart+ to do ICSP for a
12C509a with the appropriate adaptor?

Mark Skeels
Engineer
Competition Electronics
meskeelsspamspamearthlink.net

Soli Deo Gloria!

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2000\10\11@125338 by David Minkler

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Hi,
Works fine.  In fact the 12C5xxs can only be programmed serially so
that's how the PicStart+ does it.  Be careful that your circuit doesn't
overload the drive from the PS+ and you'll be fine.  Read DS30277B
In-Circuit Serial Programming Guide available on Microchip's site for
pointers.
Regards,
Dave

Mark Skeels wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2000\10\11@170523 by mike

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On Wed, 11 Oct 2000 11:31:32 -0500, you wrote:

>Can anyone think of a reason why I cannot use a PicStart+ to do ICSP for a
>12C509a with the appropriate adaptor?
>
>Mark Skeels
>Engineer
>Competition Electronics
>meskeelsspam_OUTspamearthlink.net
>
>Soli Deo Gloria!
It works, but you may need to supply +5v externally if the supply line
has any significant load apart from the PIC.
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'[EE]: ICSP'
2000\11\02@172334 by Tony Nixon
flavicon
picon face
Hi all,

Dan M has been very kind in helping recently - many many thanks :-), but
I thought I might be bugging a busy person too much.

Making this multy V verify programmer socket/ICSP port is proving to be
a bit of a teaser.

A simple interface circuit has been drawn up and tested, but I thought
the interface might work better with a 'stiffer' drive capabillity.

I sat down with Horowitz last night and came up with another idea,
albeit a little bit more complex.

The 74HC4049 works with 2V to 6V VCC but can accept input levels higher
than VCC (upto 15V). The only problem is the bi-directional data line.

The 7407 is open collector, and spare gates are available already.

If anyones interested, the 2 circuits are visible here...

http://www.picnpoke.com/circuit.gif

Any comments appreciated.

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Tony

mICro's
http://www.picnpoke.com
RemoveMEsalesKILLspamspam@spam@picnpoke.com

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2000\11\02@193412 by Dan Michaels

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face
Tony Nixon wrote:

>If anyones interested, the 2 circuits are visible here...
>
>http://www.picnpoke.com/circuit.gif
>
>Any comments appreciated.


Hi Tony, not sure if you received my last msg offlist,
but maybe you can find a 3-state 'HC inverter, so you can
use the right-hand ckt, and do away with the pull-up
resistors, and get more drive that way.

- danM

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'[PICLIST] [PIC] need prod quality ICSP..'
2001\01\07@140345 by Chris Eddy
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I need to implement a production quality ICSP setup, driven from
programs of my own control on a PC.  I want the wide voltage verify in
this case.  I was refered to MicroEngineering EPIC, which is cool, but
does not do variable voltage.  I think.

I want to implement this into a test fixture, but would prefer that I do
not implement it from scratch.  Unless someone wants to liscence the
full code, and I put the hardware on my fixture (more and more these
days, HW is the 5% of the job).

Advice appreciated.
Chris Eddy~

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'[PIC]: production grade ICSP?'
2001\01\16@165551 by Wynn Rostek

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face
I've been using MPLAB/MP-ICD for programming our latest product, which uses a PIC16F877. This worked out fine as long as we were building a dozen or two at a time. We are now building 500 at a time. I do not want to spend the rest of my life enabling the watchdog timer, the brown out, etc. What are you guys using for production in circuit serial programming of PIC16f877's?

TIA

Wynn Rostek

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2001\01\16@172702 by Octavio P Nogueira

flavicon
face
You can take a look at ProPic 2 ICP, production mode
in-circuit programmer at http://www.propic2.com


Friendly Regards

Octavio Nogueira
===================================================
RemoveMEnogueiraRemoveMEspamEraseMEpropic2.com                  ICQ# 19841898
ProPic tools - low cost PIC programmer and emulator
http://www.propic2.com
===================================================

{Original Message removed}

2001\01\16@175411 by Wynn Rostek

flavicon
face
> You can take a look at ProPic 2 ICP, production mode
> in-circuit programmer at http://www.propic2.com

Octavio,

How safe is it to connect the ProPic to your circuits without powering down
the PC?
How safe is it to power down your circuit after programming without exiting
the ProPic software?

If you power down your circuit after programming it with MPLAB/MPLAB-ICD it
will hang the machine so bad you have to power it off. (Even Ctrl-Alt-Del
doesn't work.) This is what I'm trying to get away from.

Wynn Rostek

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2001\01\16@191806 by mike

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On Tue, 16 Jan 2001 16:54:23 -0500, you wrote:

>I've been using MPLAB/MP-ICD for programming our latest product, which uses a PIC16F877. This worked out fine as long as we were building a dozen or two at a time. We are now building 500 at a time. I do not want to spend the rest of my life enabling the watchdog timer, the brown out, etc. What are you guys using for production in circuit serial programming of PIC16f877's?
You don't need to do all this - the config can be embedded in the hex
file with the __config directive.
I think this works properly in the ICD, doesn't it?

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2001\01\17@020750 by Octavio P Nogueira

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face
> Octavio,
>
> How safe is it to connect the ProPic to your circuits without powering
down
> the PC?

No problem, since all the signals are off, provide the ProPic 2
software is running.

> How safe is it to power down your circuit after programming without
exiting
> the ProPic software?

No problem at all.

>
> If you power down your circuit after programming it with MPLAB/MPLAB-ICD
it
> will hang the machine so bad you have to power it off. (Even Ctrl-Alt-Del
> doesn't work.) This is what I'm trying to get away from.
>
> Wynn Rostek

This is because the MPLAB-ICD takes the supply from your circuit.

Friendly Regards

Octavio Nogueira
===================================================
RemoveMEnogueiraspamBeGonespamRemoveMEpropic2.com                  ICQ# 19841898
ProPic tools - low cost PIC programmer and emulator
http://www.propic2.com
===================================================

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'[PICLIST] ICSP + reset button'
2001\01\30@082726 by Jeszs

flavicon
face
Hi everyone,

I am building a PCB with a 16F84 heart.

Now I need to implement a connector for external ICSP (in circuit serial
programming). I also want to have a reset pushbutton.

I have in mind the schematics of the components to be attached to the MCLR
pin (diode + 5K resistor to nominal 5v, direct connection to programming
voltage, 13.8v, and pushbutton to ground through a 100 ohm reistor).

Can you give me some URL or some hint about the right way to do that?

Thank you very much in advance!
Ciao

--------------------
Jeszs Gonzalo
INSA, Ingenierma y Servicios Aeroespaciales, SA
Orense 4 - 9
Tel: +34-915561418
28020 Madrid (SPAIN)
--------------------

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'[PIC] : Vcc in ICSP connector'
2001\01\30@091738 by DAANEN Vincent

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       Hi
       I just finished to designed a board using a PIC 16F877. I plan to
program it with ICSP. But I just see that there is still a thing I do not
know : what the use of the VCC on the ICSP connector ?
       Is it use to power the ICSP board ?
       or is it the ICSP board that power the target board ?

       Should I foresee a way to disconnect the pic from the onboard Vcc
and switch it to the ICSP Vcc ?

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'[PICLIST] ICSP + reset button'
2001\01\30@092212 by Vasile Surducan

flavicon
face
On Tue, 30 Jan 2001, Jeszs wrote:

> Hi everyone,
>
> I am building a PCB with a 16F84 heart.
>
> Now I need to implement a connector for external ICSP (in circuit serial
> programming). I also want to have a reset pushbutton.
>
> I have in mind the schematics of the components to be attached to the MCLR
> pin (diode + 5K resistor to nominal 5v, direct connection to programming
> voltage, 13.8v, and pushbutton to ground through a 100 ohm reistor).
>
> Can you give me some URL or some hint about the right way to do that?
>


You don't need any URL, however you may see the connection at:
http://www.geocities.com/vsurducan/auto.htm
Because the external ICSP haven't permanent connection you don't need any
100 ohm to ground if you don't push on reset button while programming is
on. Try diode from +V to MCLR and pic VCC, 4k7 or 10K from MCLR to VCC,
pussbutton directly to ground or if you want to be sure through a 220ohm
to GND.
Vasile

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'[PIC] : Vcc in ICSP connector'
2001\01\30@092538 by Martin Hill

picon face
I just use the onboard VCC, connecting just 4 wires to the
programmer, RB6,RB7, Vpp and GND.

Martin

{Quote hidden}

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'[PICLIST] best MCLR setup for ICSP'
2001\02\05@124742 by Mike Mansheim
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What is the best way to wire MCLR for ICSP?
(referring to the permanent interface between pin 1 and the rest of the
circuit, not the temporary interface to MCLR during ICSP)

The ICSP guide is unclear on this, in my opinion.  It says that there is
typically an RC on MCLR, and recommends a diode in that case.  We don't
need the RC (because we use the power up timer), so we've always had
just a diode between MCLR and the 5V supply.  However, I have *finally*
figured out that, for programming to work properly, the chip needs to
be reset by pulling MCLR low, then put into programming mode by raising
MCLR to Vpp (this is undoubtedly painfully obvious to most of you - my
apologies).
With our diode only setup, anything that tries to pull MCLR low will short
its own 5V supply, which explains some odd voltages I've seen when
watching on a scope a promate ICSP one of our existing boards.
Is a resistor in series with the diode the best approach, or a resistor,
or something else?
Why does the ICSP recommend a schottky diode?
I'm now amazed the promates managed to get the job done for a couple of
years with our existing design.  Any thoughts on why?
Other than being able to program properly, is there any way of quickly
checking that the chip has actually entered programming mode?

Thanks for any help.

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2001\02\05@124951 by Mike Mansheim

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[forgot the tag - sorry for multiple posts]

What is the best way to wire MCLR for ICSP?
(referring to the permanent interface between pin 1 and the rest of the
circuit, not the temporary interface to MCLR during ICSP)

The ICSP guide is unclear on this, in my opinion.  It says that there is
typically an RC on MCLR, and recommends a diode in that case.  We don't
need the RC (because we use the power up timer), so we've always had
just a diode between MCLR and the 5V supply.  However, I have *finally*
figured out that, for programming to work properly, the chip needs to
be reset by pulling MCLR low, then put into programming mode by raising
MCLR to Vpp (this is undoubtedly painfully obvious to most of you - my
apologies).
With our diode only setup, anything that tries to pull MCLR low will short
its own 5V supply, which explains some odd voltages I've seen when
watching on a scope a promate ICSP one of our existing boards.
Is a resistor in series with the diode the best approach, or a resistor,
or something else?
Why does the ICSP recommend a schottky diode?
I'm now amazed the promates managed to get the job done for a couple of
years with our existing design.  Any thoughts on why?
Other than being able to program properly, is there any way of quickly
checking that the chip has actually entered programming mode?

Thanks for any help.

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2001\02\05@133059 by Nigel Goodwin

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In message <KILLspamOF1C298C1E.8BBA2DD6-ON862569EA.005F9F82spamspamspam_OUTmsp.graco.com>, Mike
Mansheim <Michael_J_MansheimRemoveMEspamGRACO.COM> writes
>The ICSP guide is unclear on this, in my opinion.  It says that there is
>typically an RC on MCLR, and recommends a diode in that case.  We don't
>need the RC (because we use the power up timer), so we've always had
>just a diode between MCLR and the 5V supply.  However, I have *finally*
>figured out that, for programming to work properly, the chip needs to
>be reset by pulling MCLR low, then put into programming mode by raising
>MCLR to Vpp (this is undoubtedly painfully obvious to most of you - my
>apologies).

I would advise a diode and resistor feeding the MCLR pin, plus modifying
the programmer to use an extra output (using a spare gate in the 740x
buffer) to pull MCLR low.

>With our diode only setup, anything that tries to pull MCLR low will short
>its own 5V supply, which explains some odd voltages I've seen when
>watching on a scope a promate ICSP one of our existing boards.
>Is a resistor in series with the diode the best approach, or a resistor,
>or something else?

A resistor sounds fine to me!.

>Why does the ICSP recommend a schottky diode?

Presumably because it has a smaller voltage drop?.

>I'm now amazed the promates managed to get the job done for a couple of
>years with our existing design.  Any thoughts on why?
>Other than being able to program properly, is there any way of quickly
>checking that the chip has actually entered programming mode?

As far as I know the only way is to try and write a byte, then verify
it, most programmers verify after every byte - so it will fail on the
first attempt.
--

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2001\02\05@202502 by Roman Black

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Mike Mansheim wrote:
>
> [forgot the tag - sorry for multiple posts]
>
> What is the best way to wire MCLR for ICSP?
> (referring to the permanent interface between pin 1 and the rest of the
> circuit, not the temporary interface to MCLR during ICSP)


Hi Mike, in my apps I use a 68k resistor from MCLR
to +5v. Simple and cheap, never had a problem. I
suppose it depends how bad you need brown-out circuits,
etc.
-Roman

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'[PICLIST] ICSP programming of PIC16F627SO'
2001\02\08@191012 by Harold M Hallikainen

picon face
       I have a project using the above chip where yields are terrible
(60-70%). We are currently programming the part before putting it on the
board. There APPEARS to be a software problem, as the board seems to
crash when I start sending data to it. However, if I make a board with a
DIP socket wire wrapped onto it so I can do crash and burn debugging, it
works fine. Difficult to debug when I can't find the problem!
       So, what I'd like to do is put the SO part down on the board, then
program it. If it crashes, I'll mess with my code and reprogram it 'til I
get it to work reliably.
       We have a PRO MATE programmer (not a PRO MATE II), which does not
support the Microchip ICSP module. Anyone have suggested solutions here?
The one I have so far is to buy a PRO MATE II and the ICSP module. Anyway
I can come in under the $1K or so that entails?


Thanks!

Harold



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2001\02\08@195005 by hard Prosser

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You could try programming with a PICSTART.
Since the wire wrap version works OK - I guess you've checked that the
oscillator on the failing units are working reliably- the stray capacitance
of the wirewrap and/or a scope probe doesn't suddenly make it all happen
for you?

Richard P



     I have a project using the above chip where yields are terrible
(60-70%). We are currently programming the part before putting it on the
board. There APPEARS to be a software problem, as the board seems to
crash when I start sending data to it. However, if I make a board with a
DIP socket wire wrapped onto it so I can do crash and burn debugging, it
works fine. Difficult to debug when I can't find the problem!
       So, what I'd like to do is put the SO part down on the board, then
program it. If it crashes, I'll mess with my code and reprogram it 'til I
get it to work reliably.
       We have a PRO MATE programmer (not a PRO MATE II), which does not
support the Microchip ICSP module. Anyone have suggested solutions here?
The one I have so far is to buy a PRO MATE II and the ICSP module. Anyway
I can come in under the $1K or so that entails?


Thanks!

Harold



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2001\02\09@142527 by Harold M Hallikainen

picon face
       Thanks for the ideas! Yes, it COULD still be the oscillator. I'm only
running at 4 MHz using a ceramic resonator. On another board I'm using
the same chip in a DIP package with the same resonator and have not had
any problems. I tried a surface mount resonator and found that it started
working when I put a scope on the oscillator output pin. That's when I
moved to surface mounting the SIP resonator.  At this point, the boards
seem to start up ok, but when I start sending serial data to them (and
they respond), they crash. PERHAPS the oscillator is dying when I start
sending data (pulling the supply down a little? I've got a 1 uF ceramic
SMT chip right at the PIC). Anyway, I'll try watching the oscillator
during a crash and see if that's the problem.
       I think I've got a PICSTART somewhere, but it's real old. I doubt it
handles the PIC16F627. Does the latest PICSTART do ICSP of these chips?

Thanks!

Harold


On Fri, 9 Feb 2001 13:30:51 +1300 Richard Prosser
<EraseMERichard.ProsserRemoveMEspamENERGY.INVENSYS.COM> writes:
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2001\02\09@175044 by Mike Mansheim

flavicon
face
>>
       We have a PRO MATE programmer (not a PRO MATE II), which does not
support the Microchip ICSP module. Anyone have suggested solutions here?
The one I have so far is to buy a PRO MATE II and the ICSP module. Anyway
I can come in under the $1K or so that entails?
<<

We use a Promate II without the ICSP module to do ICSP programming all
the time; I would imagine the same would also work with your Promate.

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2001\02\09@180903 by Harold M Hallikainen

picon face
       Looks like the Promate is not really supposed to ICSP. Anyone have
documentation indicating otherwise? Below is a message from the Microchip
website.

Harold



Topic:
     Promate and ICSP (2 of 2), Read 66 times
Conf:
     Programmers (PRO MATE, PICSTART)
From:
     Jim Pepping .....jim.peppingspamspam.....microchip.com
Date:
     Friday, March 10, 2000 08:08 AM


The ICSP socket module will only work with Promate II. Promate does not
have the necessary
circuitry to work with the older Promaster or Promate.

The message you are seeing is a failure of the power on self test. We
have added more
documentation on these tests in the latest version of the Promate II
users guide.

Jim

On Fri, 9 Feb 2001 16:47:11 -0600 Mike Mansheim
<Michael_J_MansheimKILLspamspamEraseMEGRACO.COM> writes:
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'[PICLIST] 17c7xx icsp serial programming'
2001\03\16@091246 by es =?iso-8859-1?Q?=D3nega?=
flavicon
face
Hi,
I was working the last two months on my own ICSP programmer for 17c7xx
series. (using a 17c756a)
All I got is random behaviour from my PIC. Sometimes it "answered" my
commands (but not correct), sometimes not. When it answered, the first
command I send it was a read address command, and I got 0x8000 (only the
last bit is wrong). I have read a previous message from Dave Roberts, in
July, 2000, but it doesn't help me. I don't know if the specs from
Microchip are right, (I think don't).
I have revised my design, voltages,... and they seemed to be right. The
signals I send are as the Microchip spec, with the modifications which
Dave Roberts posted (but I have tried too many ways), and I have checked
and checked them with a logic analyzer... but I don't know what is the
problem.

Does anyone got a working ICSP for 17c7xx series?.

Thank you in advance.

Carlos Nieves

P.D. I have modified the picprg2.2 programmer from Brian Lane (for
Linux) so it can support more devices, but I can only try it with my
17c756a (which doesn't work). If anyone wants to try it, please, drop me
an e-mail.

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2001\03\19@174415 by shane

flavicon
face
Hi,

I dont know if this would help you, but I did the design for a bootloader for a 17C756 a while ago.  See
http://www.workingtex.com/htpic, look under source code, then bootloader.

Cheers,
Shane.

> {Original Message removed}

2001\03\19@192331 by David Huisman

flavicon
face
Is the 17C756A ICSP programmable, being and OTP ??

I use the PICSTART to program prototypes.

Regards

David Huisman

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2001\03\20@083647 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
> Is the 17C756A ICSP programmable, being and OTP ??

I think I know the answer, but if I really wanted to know I would check the
manual.  So should you.


********************************************************************
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(978) 742-9014, RemoveMEolinKILLspamspamRemoveMEembedinc.com, http://www.embedinc.com

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'[PIC]: Using ICD for ICSP'
2001\03\29@092246 by rchock, Steve

flavicon
face
Friends,

After all this talk of the usefulness of the ICD I gave in and bought
one. Received it this morning and have been playing with it. I noticed that
once I program the PIC (16F877) that is on the ICD header that you can put
in a 40 pin socket to run your application, after I "RESET" the PIC it works
fine.
After I remove the power and then turn it back on with the ICD programming
part
attatched my application doesn't work anymore. I thought that the ICD could
also
be used to program PICs in-circuit, like using the PRO MATE ICSP header. Am
I
wrong in this? Or am I just doing something wrong??
Any help would be appreciated!!

Best regards,
Steve


Steven Kosmerchock
Radio Frequency Systems
Phoenix,  Arizona  USA
(WORK) http://www.rfsamericas.com

http://www.geocities.com/researchtriangle/lab/6584

"Great spirits have always encountered violent
oppposition from mediocre minds."--A.Einstein

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2001\03\29@093656 by Peter Betts

picon face
Turn OFF the "Debug_Mode" switch in the programming config window. This
downloads a monitor program into the top of the PIC memory space and
hi-jacks normal operation. Caught me out too.

Pete

> {Original Message removed}

2001\03\29@095724 by rchock, Steve

flavicon
face
Pete,

Thanks ALOT!!! Works perfectly now!!! Designing a large RF relay
switching matrix in a rack (internal power testing), makes my life easier.

Thanks again!!!

Best regards,
Steve

{Original Message removed}

2001\03\29@102103 by Bob Ammerman

picon face
Be sure to clear the "Enable Debug Mode" checkbox in the ICD options if you
are going to run the program without the ICD.

Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems
(contract development of high performance, high function, low-level
software)

{Original Message removed}

2001\03\29@125547 by Raymond Choat

flavicon
face
What driver chip or transistor did you use between your pic chip and the
relays? I am also working on a project that will use relays (255ma
24voltDC).

----- Original Message -----
From: "Kosmerchock, Steve" <TakeThisOuTSteve.KosmerchockspamRFSAMERICAS.COM>
To: <spamBeGonePICLISTKILLspamspamTakeThisOuTMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2001 5:53 AM
Subject: Re: [PIC]: Using ICD for ICSP


> Pete,
>
> Thanks ALOT!!! Works perfectly now!!! Designing a large RF relay
> switching matrix in a rack (internal power testing), makes my life easier.
>
> Thanks again!!!
>
> Best regards,
> Steve
>
> {Original Message removed}


'[PIC]: ICSP w/ PIC16F877'
2001\04\09@090331 by Nicholas Irias
flavicon
face
I am getting "ID Errors" when I attempt to reprogram my PIC.  I am using
MPLAB v 5.30
Picstart firmware 2.30.  I made up a cable to connect MCLR, GND, B6 and B7
from the Picstart to the PCB.  All leads but GND have series 470 ohm
resistors.

Aside from the reported errors, at least simple test programs seem to run
when I program the chip.  The following are the errors reported by MPLAB:

PICSTART Plus Error Log File
08-Apr-2001, 22:47:02

Device Type: 16F877

Errors during programming.  Configuration bits not programmed.


ID Errors

Address  Good  Bad

0000:    3FFF  0000
0001:    3FFF  0000
0002:    3FFF  0000
0003:    3FFF  0000




thanks for any assistance with this,

Nicholas

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2001\04\09@113528 by Carlos Fiestas

flavicon
face
Hi, Nicholas

I suggest two things:

1. Use VCC from PICSTART and use it for both microcontroller VCC pins . Care
must be taken if your circuit requires much current!. I suppose PICSTART
desenergize PIC microcontrollers to RESET previous to programming it.
2. Make sure RB6 and RB7 pins of your circuit have at least 10Kohm
impedance.

Good luck and comment us your results!

Bye

Carlos Fiestas S.

{Original Message removed}

2001\04\09@115830 by Roman Black

flavicon
face
Hi Nicholas, we are using an almost identical system
with no probs (but MPLAB 4.00).
* How long are leads from the picstart?
* Are you taking care of the RB3 problem (low volts
programming option)?
* do you have any capacitance on MCLR circuit?
* brownout protect chip?
:o)
-Roman


Nicholas Irias wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2001\04\09@124052 by Nicholas Irias

flavicon
face
More on the configuration:

My programming leads are 22ga wire, about 18" (~1/2 meter) long.

RB6 and 7 are used only for programming.

RB3 is not used.  I have tried leaving it floating and also tying it to
ground via a 1K resistor, but still get the same error message.

I am not using the low voltage programming mode.

MCLR has .01uF cap to ground.  It is pulled up to Vcc via a 47K resistor in
series with a diode to allow MCLR to go to 13 volts for programming.

There is no brownout protect chip.

{Original Message removed}

2001\04\09@130005 by Roman Black

flavicon
face
Nicholas Irias wrote:
>
> More on the configuration:
>
> My programming leads are 22ga wire, about 18" (~1/2 meter) long.
>
> RB6 and 7 are used only for programming.
>
> RB3 is not used.  I have tried leaving it floating and also tying it to
> ground via a 1K resistor, but still get the same error message.
>
> I am not using the low voltage programming mode.
>
> MCLR has .01uF cap to ground.  It is pulled up to Vcc via a 47K resistor in
> series with a diode to allow MCLR to go to 13 volts for programming.


I think you have it there. You have a 470 ohm series
resistor and .01uF cap RC network. Bad. :o)
Try removing the cap totally (bst), or shorting
the resistor.

Microchip are sketchy about the actual timing
the Picstart uses for MCLR (RESET->VPP)
and I think the program and verify timings are
different. You may be getting good programming
and bad verifying. Either way you need to mod
that cap so MCLR can get to VPP very quickly.
-Roman

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2001\04\09@131019 by Roman Black

flavicon
face
> Nicholas Irias wrote:

<ICSP with Picstart>
> > MCLR has .01uF cap to ground.  It is pulled up to Vcc via a 47K resistor in
> > series with a diode to allow MCLR to go to 13 volts for programming.

I forgot to add you don't need the diode, just the
47k pull up is fine. The PIC uses 10mA to 20mA in
programming mode, so the few uA leakage back to
Vdd won't matter, it will be handled by your 5v
regulator which will just supply a few uA less.
:o)
-Roman

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2001\04\09@133052 by Nicholas Irias

flavicon
face
thanks.  I'll try again with no cap and see it that does the trick.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Roman Black" <EraseMEfastvid.....spamKILLspamEZY.NET.AU>
To: <spamPICLISTspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 9:58 AM
Subject: Re: [PIC]: ICSP w/ PIC16F877


{Quote hidden}

in
{Quote hidden}

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2001\04\09@183728 by shane

flavicon
face
Have you got a 4.7uF DC decoupling cap anywhere in your circuit?  I must have programmed hundreds of chips with ICSP with my
PICStart Plus, and I do remember that it doesnt work with certain 4.7uF DC decoupling caps.

Cheers,
Shane.

> {Original Message removed}

'[PIC]: ICSP w/ PIC16F877 - problem solved'
2001\04\10@084829 by Nicholas Irias

flavicon
face
Getting rid of the cap on MCLR did the trick.  I havent had any errors
programming since I pulled it out.

thanks for the help

{Original Message removed}

2001\04\10@090509 by Kevin Olalde

picon face
Was the cap there in the first place for POR considerations?  And do you
now have that problem (again)?

Kevin

Nicholas Irias wrote:
>
> Getting rid of the cap on MCLR did the trick.  I havent had any errors
> programming since I pulled it out.
>
> thanks for the help
>
> {Original Message removed}

2001\04\10@093909 by Nicholas Irias

flavicon
face
I am not seeing POR problems.  The cap was there because I copied part of my
schematic from an earlier schematic that I used with a PIC 16C74A.  My
recollection was that I added the cap to that earlier design as a precaution
rather than as a response to any sort of POR problem.

{Original Message removed}

'[PIC]: ICSP and PIC Start Plus'
2001\04\26@165100 by Thomas N

picon face
Hi everyone,

Please correct me if I am wrong.  I am a little confused.

Why do we need (to buy) the PIC Start Plus programmer when we can program
the PICmicro In-Circuit through the serial port of a PC?  Isn't it more
convienent to program the IC in circuit than program it on the programmer?

If ICSP can program the same as the PIC Start Plus, which one is faster?
How do I program the PIC in-circuit (I am thinking of getting rid of my PIC
Start Plus programmer!)

If my understanding is right, then I think it's a waste of money of buy the
PIC Start Plus or any PIC programmer (I currently have one PIC Start Plus
programmer).

Thomas
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2001\04\26@190748 by Bob Ammerman

picon face
ICSP _does_ stand for In Circuit Serial Programming, but the word Serial
doesn't mean 'PC Style Serial Port', but rather, 'one bit at a time'. You
still need a programmer to generate the correct voltages and timings when
using ICSP.

Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems
(contract development of high performance, high function, low-level
software)

{Original Message removed}

2001\04\26@210538 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
> Why do we need (to buy) the PIC Start Plus programmer when we can program
> the PICmicro In-Circuit through the serial port of a PC?  Isn't it more
> convienent to program the IC in circuit than program it on the programmer?

1  -  It is often convenient to program chips by themselves, not plugged
into a circuit.

2  -  Not all PICs have the in circuit programming capability.

3  -  Allowing for ICSP puts contraints on the target circuit that may not
be acceptable.


********************************************************************
Olin Lathrop, embedded systems consultant in Littleton Massachusetts
(978) 742-9014, olinSTOPspamspamKILLspamembedinc.com, http://www.embedinc.com

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2001\04\26@213526 by Bob Ammerman

picon face
It takes more than a PC serial port to program ICSP PICS! You still need a
programmer to generate the correct voltages and timings.

Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems
(contract development of high performance, high function, low-level
software)

{Original Message removed}

2001\04\27@035222 by Martin Hill

picon face
I'd be interested to know how you can do this, unless you write your own bootloader.  Are you confusing the fact that the programming on the PIC is serial with the fact that their is a serial port on the computer?  The two are not the same.  You need two lines to get data into the PIC, one for data, one for a clock (plus you need to play with the programming voltage).  The data line is bidirectional.  The serial port on a PC has one receive and one transmit pin, no clock.  Just because both are serial it doesn't mean they are the same.  Like saying I have a digital watch and a digital camcorder.  Just because they both operate digitaly doesn't mean they can talk to each other.  
Martin

>>> spamthomasn101.....spam.....HOTMAIL.COM 04/26/01 09:49PM >>>
Hi everyone,

Please correct me if I am wrong.  I am a little confused.

Why do we need (to buy) the PIC Start Plus programmer when we can program
the PICmicro In-Circuit through the serial port of a PC?  Isn't it more
convienent to program the IC in circuit than program it on the programmer?

If ICSP can program the same as the PIC Start Plus, which one is faster?
How do I program the PIC in-circuit (I am thinking of getting rid of my PIC
Start Plus programmer!)

If my understanding is right, then I think it's a waste of money of buy the
PIC Start Plus or any PIC programmer (I currently have one PIC Start Plus
programmer).

Thomas
_________________________________________________________________________
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'[PIC]: Programming the PIC16F876 by ICSP or other '
2001\06\16@133916 by Wade Carpenter
picon face
Hello all:

I just started with PIC recently, and am trying to find a way to program the
F876 device.  I would like to ask for the advice of anyone who has built
his/her own programmer before.  I found this page, among many others,
(http://jaichi.virtualave.net/pic16f8xx-e.htm) but I am not sure of the
schematics shown here because they all say something like "PIC16c84"
interface.  This is what I find everywhere I look, so if it really does
work, could someone who has done this please let me know which
interface/software was used so that I might begin.

Thank you so much,

Wade Carpenter

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'[PICLIST] [PIC] Low voltage programing ICSP with 1'
2001\06\25@105253 by Misana Enginyeria

flavicon
face
Please, somebody have programed a 16F870 in circuit, with the MCLR pin
branched at de VCC?
Thanks.

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'[PIC]: Low voltage programing ICSP with 16F870'
2001\06\25@113030 by Misana Enginyeria

flavicon
face
-----Mensaje original-----
De: Misana Enginyeria [spam_OUTmisana.3096spamTakeThisOuTcajarural.com]
Enviado el: lunes, 25 de junio de 2001 16:52
Para: PICLIST
Asunto: [PIC]: Low voltage programing ICSP with 16F870


Please, somebody have programed a 16F870 in circuit, with the MCLR pin
branched at de VCC?
Thanks.

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'[PICLIST] ICSP errors'
2001\08\13@140626 by Alan Gorham
flavicon
face
Hello All

I have a 16F874 and I would like to download it's target firmware using a PicStart Plus.
I have read Microchip's Technical Brief TB016 on Implementing ICSP on 16F87X parts,
I have been a good boy and searched the piclist archives and discovered that there may be
an issue with the status of pin RB3 when programming, but otherwise it seems straightforward.

I am using the CC5x C compiler within MPLAB and I am just downloading an empty main
program in order to prove the ICSP link.

The error that I am getting says that the configuration bits are not being set. Can anyone think of a reason for this or where I may be going wrong?

Any suggestions greatly appreciated!

Alan Gorham
Embedded Systems Engineer
Microtima Ltd
Ouseburn Mews
3-7 Stepney Bank
Newcastle upon Tyne
NE1 2PW

Tel: 0191 2304411
Fax: 0191 2304422

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2001\08\13@141425 by Roman Black

flavicon
face
Alan Gorham wrote:

> I am using the CC5x C compiler within MPLAB and I am just downloading an empty main
> program in order to prove the ICSP link.
>
> The error that I am getting says that the configuration bits are not being set. Can anyone think
> of a reason for this or where I may be going wrong?


So are you using MPLAB and the PSP to do the
actual programming??
-Roman

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2001\08\13@184601 by Dave Johnson

picon face
This sounds like what I'm seeing with my '871 (see previous post). If
you figure it out, please let me know!

Dave Johnson

At 5:57 PM +0100 8/13/01, Alan Gorham wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2001\08\14@073452 by Alan Gorham

flavicon
face
-----Original Message-----
From: Alan Gorham <TakeThisOuTalanKILLspamspam@spam@MICROTIMA.CO.UK>
To: .....PICLISTRemoveMEspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU <KILLspamPICLISTspamTakeThisOuTMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Date: 14 August 2001 10:27
Subject: ICSP errors


Hello All (Now changed topic tag. No excuses, just brain fade)

I have a 16F874 and I would like to download it's target firmware using a
PicStart Plus.
I have read Microchip's Technical Brief TB016 on Implementing ICSP on 16F87X
parts,
I have been a good boy and searched the piclist archives and discovered that
there may be
an issue with the status of pin RB3 when programming, but otherwise it seems
straightforward.

I am using the CC5x C compiler within MPLAB and I am just downloading an
empty main
program in order to prove the ICSP link.

The error that I am getting says that the configuration bits are not being
set. Can anyone think
of a reason for this or where I may be going wrong?

Any suggestions greatly appreciated!

Alan Gorham

Embedded Systems Engineer
Microtima Ltd
Ouseburn Mews
3-7 Stepney Bank
Newcastle upon Tyne
NE1 2PW

Tel: 0191 2304411
Fax: 0191 2304422

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2001\08\14@073456 by Alan Gorham

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face
-----Original Message-----
From: Roman Black <.....fastvidEraseMEspamEZY.NET.AU>
To: spamBeGonePICLISTspamRemoveMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU <.....PICLISTEraseMEspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Date: 14 August 2001 10:14
Subject: Re: ICSP errors


>Alan Gorham wrote:
>
>> I am using the CC5x C compiler within MPLAB and I am just downloading an
empty main
>> program in order to prove the ICSP link.
>>
>> The error that I am getting says that the configuration bits are not
being set. Can anyone think
>> of a reason for this or where I may be going wrong?
>
>
>So are you using MPLAB and the PSP to do the
>actual programming??
>-Roman

Dead right!

Alan

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2001\08\14@095718 by Roman Black

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Alan Gorham wrote:

> >> The error that I am getting says that the configuration bits are not
> being set. Can anyone think
> >> of a reason for this or where I may be going wrong?
> >
> >
> >So are you using MPLAB and the PSP to do the
> >actual programming??
> >-Roman


> Dead right!
>
> Alan

Hi Alan, you need at least MPLAB 5.30 and the
latest PSP 2.3 firmware installed in it.
-Roman

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'[PICLIST] Strong Programmer to Overcome ICSP Capac'
2001\08\26@155006 by Rock Thompson

picon face
I use a short cable to connect my PICSTART Plus to
various boards to do ICSP.  It works well, except I
have to eliminate or reduce the power supply
capacitors because the PICSTART is not strong enough
to compensate for them.

I realize I could build a driver board like the one
Microchip suggests.  But I am wondering if there isn't
another stronger programmer that may work, without
costing a fortune.  Any ideas?

__________________________________________________
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Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger
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'[PIC]: ICSP doubt/problem'
2001\08\28@054529 by asena

picon face
Hello people!

I plan to use ICSP with a 16F628, but i have a cristal and capacitors, connected to the RB6.RB7 pins.
Do you think that the overal capacitance could ruin the ICSP comms ?
Thank you


*********************************************************
Antonio Sergio Sena     CT2GPW
spamBeGoneasenaspamBeGonespam@spam@bigfoot.com

BEng Electrical & Electronic Engineering
Heriot-Watt University - Edinburgh

Homepage: http://www.qsl.net/ct2gpw
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'[PIC]: ICSP MCLR/Vpp issues'
2001\08\29@063736 by Alan Gorham

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part 1 3600 bytes content-type:multipart/alternative; (decoded quoted-printable)


------ 2001\08\29@191116 by Tony Nixon
flavicon
picon face
{Quote hidden}

It sounds like the chip is not recognising programming mode.

Make sure VPP is pulled to GND during powerup to keep the chip in reset.
Raise it to VPP when ready to program while keeping RB6, RB7 low.

Is the chip in LVP mode? If so, keep RB3 tied to GND as well.


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'[PIC]: ICSP MCLR/Vpp issues'
2001\09\03@063518 by Alan Gorham
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Hi Tony

Thanks for the reply.

I have some questions about some of the points you made.

1) The RC circuit that Microchip propose for the MCLR/Vpp pin
    will prevent the Vpp pin from going high for a time dependent on the
values of R and C.
    According to the values I showed in my attachment, this time is 0.1
sec.

2) When you said "keeping pins RB6 and RB7 low", how would you set about
this, bearing in mind
    the low drive capability of a typical PIC programmer?

3) Yes, I have heard about the perils of LVP mode. I'm not using it.

However, I suspected that the problem may have been caused by the use of an
inappropriate Schottky diode, because the failure to enter programming mode
was somewhat random.
Another issue may have been my omission of a series resistor into the MCLR
pin that was covered extensively in a recent thread.
I changed the diode to a common or garden signal type and added a series
resistor and, hey presto,
reliable programming every time!


Alan


{Original Message removed}

'[PIC]: ICSP doubt/problem'
2001\09\03@133925 by asena

picon face
Hi

I plan to use ICSP with a 16F628, but i have a cristal and capacitors, connected to the RB6.RB7 pins.
Do you think that the overal capacitance could ruin the ICSP comms ?
Thank you




*********************************************************
Antonio Sergio Sena     CT2GPW
KILLspamasena.....spamTakeThisOuTbigfoot.com

BEng Electrical & Electronic Engineering
Heriot-Watt University - Edinburgh

Homepage: http://www.qsl.net/ct2gpw
*********************************************************

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2001\09\03@193956 by Tony Nixon

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picon face
Antonio Sergio Sena wrote:
>
> Hi
>
> I plan to use ICSP with a 16F628, but i have a cristal and capacitors, connected to the RB6.RB7 pins.
> Do you think that the overal capacitance could ruin the ICSP comms ?
> Thank you

It doesn't matter what you have connected to RB6/7. If that interferes
with the ICSP process, it simply won't work. If this is the case then
you will have to isolate your circuitry while programming.

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'[PIC]: ICSP MCLR/Vpp issues'
2001\09\03@195443 by Tony Nixon

flavicon
picon face
Alan Gorham wrote:
>
> Hi Tony
>
> Thanks for the reply.
>
> I have some questions about some of the points you made.
>
> 1) The RC circuit that Microchip propose for the MCLR/Vpp pin
>      will prevent the Vpp pin from going high for a time dependent on the
> values of R and C.
>      According to the values I showed in my attachment, this time is 0.1
> sec.

Yes, but the voltage is still rising due to the charging cap, although
not as fast as VCC. I don't know for sure if this is the cause though.
Another more subtle problem may arise here. If MCLR raises sufficiently
to briefly come out of reset, the program counter may start incrementing
due to the oscillator running. This means if the chip manages to get
into programming mode your programming won't commence from 0000h. I use
a NPN transistor to pull MCLR to GND, which would also keep the cap
discharged.

> 2) When you said "keeping pins RB6 and RB7 low", how would you set about
> this, bearing in mind
>      the low drive capability of a typical PIC programmer?

If a programmer can't keep a CMOS input low, then it must be a bad
design or you have external circuity fighting the desired logic level,
in which case you need to do something about it.



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Tony

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'[PIC]: ICSP doubt/problem'
2001\09\04@204839 by asena

picon face
Has i dont know if the system works or not, i am asking this question.
I would like to know before producing PCBs. And i am sure that someone may already had this problem.
Thanks

Sena




{Quote hidden}

*********************************************************
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2001\09\04@211420 by Tony Nixon

flavicon
picon face
Antonio Sergio Sena wrote:
>
> Has i dont know if the system works or not, i am asking this question.
> I would like to know before producing PCBs. And i am sure that someone may already had this problem.
> Thanks
>
> Sena

I would build up a prototype PCB, even if it only catered for the ICSP
connections and the circuitry around RB6/7. I'm sure that will give you
a pretty good idea.

Obviously having caps and a crystal connected to these pins will raise
the capacitance of the data and clock lines which may cause timing
problems.

If you can say, I'm curious why you have a crystal oscillator on RB6/7!

--
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2001\09\05@220657 by asena

picon face
Alright, thanks very much.

I have already built a prototype PCB. Just waiting for it to be ready.

I am using a 32k on the RB6.7 so i can almost exact RT clock (actually 15sec pulse) without overloading the already overloaded Interrupt routine.
I have a program that the main routine is only GOTO $ !! (for future implementation), thats why i have all my needs inside the irupt routine.

I have tested this config on a protoboard, and it does not work. I have to unload RB6.7 of any external capacity.

Thanks
Sena





{Quote hidden}

*********************************************************
Antonio Sergio Sena     CT2GPW
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Homepage: http://www.qsl.net/ct2gpw
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'[PIC]: ICSP problems'
2001\09\11@225954 by asena

picon face
Hi people!

Last week a similar problem was discussed here in the list, but i'm having another situation, on the same topics.

Attached, is a small picture of my ICSP circuit. I isolated the main Vdd, because my programmer doesnt drain enough power to supply the entire
board.

As you can see, i didnt use the typical RC circuit that Microchip describes in their Appnote. I did it this way because my main Vdd is isolated,
and the Vdd from the programmer, is going straight for the PIC Vdd power pin, not being used to also power the MCLR'. MCLR' is connected
straight to the programmer, isolated with a diode from the main power supply.

With the PIC on the programmer, it works. With the PIC on the board using ICSP, nothing happens.
You may be wondering why i did put a 100nF capacitor between those two points???  that was the only way to put the ICSP to work.
Tested several times and it worked great. Until i took it back again.

I continued to try without the capacitor, but nothing was happening, until i read the PIC with ICSP the programmer and it would just power down it
self.... strange....

After several experiments, i noticed that when the Vpp voltage was being applied, the PIC was pulling down the Vpp line.....   i tried the
programmer alone with some wires (making short circuit between Vpp and GND while read/write) and it was happening the same.

Interesting off all, is that apart from not being able to read/write the chip, if i apply power to my circuit, it works perfectly!! perfectly..... but no
read/write access.....rrrr...

Can someone explain to me, why is this happening to the PIC???  why cant i access it to read/write???  i already fried two.

To all of you, thank you very much, and i hope i was clear enough.
Sena


*********************************************************
Antonio Sergio Sena     CT2GPW
.....asenaspamspam_OUTbigfoot.com

BEng Electrical & Electronic Engineering
Heriot-Watt University - Edinburgh

Homepage: http://www.qsl.net/ct2gpw
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2001\09\13@134219 by Antonio Sergio Sena

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--Message-Boundary-19242
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Content-description: Mail message body

Hi people!

Last week a similar problem was discussed here in the list, but i'm having another situation, on the same topics.

Attached, is a small picture of my ICSP circuit. I isolated the main Vdd, because my programmer doesnt drain enough power to supply the entire
board.

As you can see, i didnt use the typical RC circuit that Microchip describes in their Appnote. I did it this way because my main Vdd is isolated,
and the Vdd from the programmer, is going straight for the PIC Vdd power pin, not being used to also power the MCLR'. MCLR' is connected
straight to the programmer, isolated with a diode from the main power supply.

With the PIC on the programmer, it works. With the PIC on the board using ICSP, nothing happens. You may be wondering why i did put a
100nF capacitor between those two points???  that was the only way to put the ICSP to work. Tested several times and it worked great. Until i
took it back again.

I continued to try without the capacitor, but nothing was happening, until i read the PIC with ICSP the programmer and it would just power down it
self.... strange....

After several experiments, i noticed that when the Vpp voltage was being applied, the PIC was pulling down the Vpp line.....   i tried the
programmer alone with some wires (making short circuit between Vpp and GND while read/write) and it was happening the same.

Interesting off all, is that apart from not being able to read/write the chip, if i apply power to
my circuit, it works perfectly!! perfectly..... but no
read/write access.....rrrr...


Can someone explain to me, why is this happening to the PIC???  why cant i access it to read/write?
??  i already fried two.


To all of you, thank you very much, and i hope i was clear enough.
Sena



*********************************************************
Antonio Sergio Sena     CT2GPW
@spam@asenaEraseMEspamspambigfoot.com

BEng Electrical & Electronic Engineering
Heriot-Watt University - Edinburgh

Homepage: http://www.qsl.net/ct2gpw
*********************************************************

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2001\09\16@192855 by Tony Nixon

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picon face
Antonio Sergio Sena wrote:
>
> Hi people!
>
> Last week a similar problem was discussed here in the list, but i'm having another situation, on the same topics.
>
> Attached, is a small picture of my ICSP circuit. I isolated the main Vdd, because my programmer doesnt drain enough power to supply the entire
> board.

RB4 on the 16F628 is a pin that controls LVP if it is enabled. You may
need to pull it low before programming.

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Best regards

Tony

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2001\09\17@064516 by asena

picon face
> > Last week a similar problem was discussed here in the list, but i'm having another situation, on the same topics.
> >
> > Attached, is a small picture of my ICSP circuit. I isolated the main Vdd, because my programmer doesnt drain enough power to supply the entire
> > board.
>
> RB4 on the 16F628 is a pin that controls LVP if it is enabled. You may
> need to pull it low before programming.
>
> --
> Best regards
>
> Tony
>
> mICros
> http://www.bubblesoftonline.com
> @spam@salesSTOPspamspambubblesoftonline.com
>


I did so, though it is not drawn in the picture. And the problem persisted...
This is a very stange situation, and i dont believe that anyone hasnt had a similar problem, i only received an answer from you.
Thanks

Sena



*********************************************************
Antonio Sergio Sena     CT2GPW
TakeThisOuTasenaTakeThisOuTspamRemoveMEbigfoot.com

BEng Electrical & Electronic Engineering
Heriot-Watt University - Edinburgh

Homepage: http://www.qsl.net/ct2gpw
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'[PICLIST] ICSP Question'
2001\09\17@111236 by Ron Hackett

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I am designing a small ICSP circuit for a 16F84, and I have question.  I
know I need to isolate or switch the RB6, RB7 and _MCLR lines, but I don't
know whether I also need to remove power from all of the I/O circuitry
attached to the PIC when the system is in programming mode.  If anyone can
enlighten me, I would really appreciate it.

Tnanks...  Ron


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2001\09\17@112707 by Lawrence Lile

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Ron,

(added the +AFs-PIC+AF0-: tag)

I typically leave all other I/O hooked up to the PIC, and run the PIC off my
project's 5 volt power supply as well.  I isolate MCLR with a diode and
resistor, and leave RB6 and RB7 dedicated to programming.  The PIC does need
5 volts to get programmed, and your programmer typically is limited in how
much power it can supply to your board, so I let the board supply handle
this task.

I've tried several times to get circuits working with isolating jumpers to
RB6 and RB7, but it was as they say +ACI-too much monkey business+ACI-.  One of
these days I'll be so strapped for I/O lines I'll have to make this work.

-- Lawrence Lile



{Original Message removed}


'[PIC]: ICSP Question'
2001\10\01@110517 by Ron Hackett
picon face
Hi all,

I have an ICSP question I hope someone can shed some light on.  I am using
the ICSP connector on my Warp13 programmer with a 16F84, and I find that the
Warp software reports multiple errors if the +5V to the PIC comes from my
circuit.  If I disconnect my circuit +5V and power the PIC from the
programmer, the chip programs fine, but I can't execute the program until I
switch the +5V back to the circuit supply.  (MCLR is isolated with a diode
and a resistor.)

I can live with this if I have to, but if there is any way to avoid the
repetitive shifting of the +5V supply back and forth, it would certainly
simplify things.  Any suggestions?

Thanks...  Ron

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2001\10\04@024850 by Anand Dhuru

flavicon
face
Ron, I faced precisely the same problem with my EPIC programmer. The
solution might sound horrendeous, but is actually safe, and proven to be
working fine.

The EPIC uses a transistor to switch the +5 volts to the PIC only during
read / write ops.

In my case, since the target circuit had very few components besides the PIC
itself, I wanted to power it up with the 5 volt regulator on the EPIC
itself. This did not work reliably, exactly as what you have described. The
solution was to short the collector and the emitter of the switching
transistor. I realize this sounds wierd; the transistor is now apparently
serving no purpose. But it works like a charm. Even resets the PIC after
each write cycle.

Regards,

Anand

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2001\10\04@050704 by Roman Black

flavicon
face
In most cases you can do ICSP with the PIC
permanently powered up. I do a lot of my
projects this way using a PicStart Plus.
When not programming, the PSP keeps the
PIC in reset, (MCLR low) it then goes to
MCLR at 13v to do the program and verify etc.

If you add a switch on MCLR to connect it
to 5v instead you can simply flip the switch
and run the program in the PIC.

I have one of these setups on a protoboard
(the white plug in ones) and can just leave
MPLAB running, flip the switch, press "program"
on MPLAB and then flip the switch back to run
it. Very cheap setup and great for small PICs
(16F84) in development.
-Roman




Anand Dhuru wrote:
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'[PICLIST] F876 Code Protection / ICSP'
2001\10\23@125239 by John Craft

flavicon
face
If you use ICSP to program a part with CP enabled, can it be overwritten
using ICSP?

If I place a part in the programmer itself, it overwrites.  Not in the
circuit.

Jc.

========================================================
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Lead Analyst                         Fax:   228-689-8130
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'[PIC]:F876 ICSP Code Protect?'
2001\10\23@150618 by John Craft

flavicon
face
If you use ICSP to program a part with CP enabled, can it be overwritten
using ICSP?

If I place a part in the programmer itself, it overwrites.  Not in the circuit.

John C.

========================================================
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Lead Analyst                         Fax:   228-689-8130
Diamond Data Systems
Mississippi Division
MSAAP, Bldg 9101, Ste 105D
Stennis Space Center MS  39529

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2001\10\23@184200 by Tony Nixon

flavicon
picon face
John Craft wrote:
>
> If you use ICSP to program a part with CP enabled, can it be overwritten
> using ICSP?
>
> If I place a part in the programmer itself, it overwrites.  Not in the circuit.
>
> John C.

It should, because ICSP is exactly the same algorithm as using a
programmer.

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Tony

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'[PIC]: rb6,rb7 icsp, floating pins, etc'
2001\11\09@152808 by David Dunn
flavicon
face
what do you guys do with RB6 and RB7 when you need it for ICSP but that's about it.

i have all my unused pins tied to ground with 4.7k right now but not sure what to do with rb6 and 7 so that i can still icsp but they aren't
floating the rest of the time.

thanks,


dld

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2001\11\09@161649 by Gerhard Fiedler

flavicon
face
At 14:15 11/09/2001 -0600, David Dunn wrote:
>what do you guys do with RB6 and RB7 when you need it for ICSP but that's
>about it.
>
>i have all my unused pins tied to ground with 4.7k right now but not sure
>what to do with rb6 and 7 so that i can still icsp but they aren't
>floating the rest of the time.

Make your unused pins outputs, then they're not floating even without any
resistors.

ge

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2001\11\09@164458 by James Paul

picon face
I usually bring these two pins out to a 2x3 header.  Looking at the header
as 2 columns by 3 rows, I connect RB^ to one center pin, and RB7 to the
other center pin.  The two top pins go to my external circuitry, and the
bottom to pins go to the ICSP connector.   When I program the part, I use
the jumper blocks to connect the two center pins to the two bottom pins.
After programming, move the jumpers from the middle-bottom to the middle-
top position.   They now go to the circuitry on the board.  Works for me.


                                                Regards,

                                                  Jim
              Ext. Cir.
                 oo
             RB6 oo RB7
                 oo
                ICSP



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2001\11\09@164523 by James Paul

picon face
I usually bring these two pins out to a 2x3 header.  Looking at the header
as 2 columns by 3 rows, I connect RB6 to one center pin, and RB7 to the
other center pin.  The two top pins go to my external circuitry, and the
bottom to pins go to the ICSP connector.   When I program the part, I use
the jumper blocks to connect the two center pins to the two bottom pins.
After programming, move the jumpers from the middle-bottom to the middle-
top position.   They now go to the circuitry on the board.  Works for me.


                                                Regards,

                                                  Jim
              Ext. Cir.
                 oo
             RB6 oo RB7
                 oo
                ICSP



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2001\11\12@025254 by Vasile Surducan

flavicon
face
Exactly what you are doing with all unused pins ( make them as outputs,
make them inputs and connect resistors to vcc or to ground as you need )
except the LVP pin which must be grounded with 10K.
Vasile

On Fri, 9 Nov 2001, David Dunn wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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'[PIC]: ICSP header pinout recommendations'
2001\11\19@223921 by Dwayne Reid

flavicon
face
Good day to all.

I was wondering if there is any kind of wiring standard for a 5 pin single
row ICSP header.  My first thought was to put VPP on the center pin but I
haven't gone much further than that.

The project I'm working on will have to use a single row header (space
limitations) but I've always liked double row headers and ribbon cable.  I
can see the need for standardized pinouts for both.

I've looked at Microchip's ICSP guide but am not fond of their chosen
pinout because of the damage that is likely to occur if the header is
installed backwards.  So I thought I'd ask the list members for your
opinion.  If everybody uses the Microchip pin assignments, I will also.

Many thanks!

dwayne


Dwayne Reid   <TakeThisOuTdwayner@spam@spam@spam@planet.eon.net>
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2001\11\20@045440 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>I was wondering if there is any kind of wiring standard for a 5 pin single
>row ICSP header.  My first thought was to put VPP on the center pin but I
>haven't gone much further than that.
>
>The project I'm working on will have to use a single row header (space
>limitations) but I've always liked double row headers and ribbon cable.  I
>can see the need for standardized pinouts for both.
>
>I've looked at Microchip's ICSP guide but am not fond of their chosen
>pinout because of the damage that is likely to occur if the header is
>installed backwards.  So I thought I'd ask the list members for your
>opinion.  If everybody uses the Microchip pin assignments, I will also.

Check the circuit diagram for the ICD. They use a 7 pin single row header on
that with one pin missing to key it. The signal order on the pins is also
the same as the RJ11 they use to connect from the ICD to the target system.

The pin out on the header is as follows

1 MCLR
2 +VDD
3 GND
4 RB7
5 RB6
6 -key- pin missing
7 RB3

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2001\11\20@225145 by SM Ling

picon face
HI Dwayne,

Just brought out a PIC-ICD and a Warp13a, the ICSP single row are not the
same.

ICD goes like this RB6 RB7 VSS VDD VPP, and Warp13 is VDD GND VPP RB7 RB6.
Warp13 also uses a polarised single row, those use in 3.5 inch floppy.
My vote goes to the Warp13 configuration.


Cheers, Ling SM

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'[PIC]: icsp advice'
2002\01\18@145114 by Mark Adcock
picon face
Hullo All,

I have a circuit with a pic16c74 (may become a 16f74 later or 16f874)
connected to a 6264 ram chip, with rb6 and rb7 being used as output pins
connected to two of the 6264's address input pins. What 'isolation circuit'
(Microchip's term from spec TB013) should i use on these lines if i am
attempting to use ICSP?

Also, what about the mclr pin? I was planning to use an IN4148 diode and a
10k resistor but do i need a pull down capacitor as well?

And finally... on the same spec TB013, the Vdd of the pic is connected to
the Vdd line via a resistor; what value is sensible?

many thanks,

mark.

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2002\01\18@162226 by uter van ooijen & floortje hanneman

picon face
> I have a circuit with a pic16c74 (may become a 16f74 later or 16f874)
> connected to a 6264 ram chip, with rb6 and rb7 being used as output pins
> connected to two of the 6264's address input pins. What 'isolation
circuit'
> (Microchip's term from spec TB013) should i use on these lines if i am
> attempting to use ICSP?

As only the PIC drives these lines: nothing. The R's are needed when the
rest of the circuit could drive the lines, which would give problems with
the ICSP use.

> Also, what about the mclr pin? I was planning to use an IN4148 diode and a
> 10k resistor but do i need a pull down capacitor as well?

For ICSP MCLR must be brought quickly to around 14V. So there are a number
of reset 'circuits' that will work. The most simple 10 - 40 k to Vcc, but
that might not work unless at least the chip has brownout detection. An
external brownout detector must not be connected directly to MCLR, but
rather 'halfway' into the R. Many other options are possible. Remember that
a C directly on MCLR is taboo, even more so for ICSP.

> And finally... on the same spec TB013, the Vdd of the pic is connected to
> the Vdd line via a resistor; what value is sensible?

Probably to prevent problems when power of circuit and programmer are
slightly different?

Wouter van Ooijen

Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
Jal compiler for PIC uC's:  http://www.voti.nl/jal
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'[PIC]: Startup & ICSP problems with external clock'
2002\01\21@061238 by Peter Onion

flavicon
face
I've been using my own design of ICSP programmer for a few months now with no
problems.

Until now I've only ever used crystals (From 1MHz up to 20MHz) for the master
clock source.  Yesterday I tried using an external clock source (for better
accuracy) and ran into problems.

When I put my programmer into program mode the target pic doesn't recognise the
"Enter HV programming" sequence and instead starts running its program.

Somewhere I remember seeing a reference to "Not more than SoMany clock pulses"
in a timing diagram to do with start up/reset/enter programming mode.  I've
just had a look in the 16F877 data sheets and I can't find again.

Is my problem cause by the external clock source starting up quicker than the
internal oscillator+xtal would start ?

Peter.

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2002\01\21@163502 by iklas Wennerstrand

picon face
If you use external clock that runs at startup you can gett problem.
RC oscillators starts quick and a caned clocksource runs from the start if
you have that powered on before the PIC.
Crystall oscillator take some time to start and after that you have 1024
clock cycle count in the PIC just to be sure the oscillator is stable.
My advise is to dissable the external oscillation by a pulldown on OSC inut
during programming.
External crystall is usually not a problem.
Have a look in the programming specification for the PIC you use. There you
can find critical time for Vpp and Vdd etc.
Niklas

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Från: pic microcontroller discussion list [KILLspamPICLISTKILLspamspamspamBeGoneMITVMA.MIT.EDU]
För Peter Onion
Skickat:        den 21 januari 2002 12:15
Till:   spamBeGonePICLISTKILLspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Ämne: [PIC]: Startup & ICSP problems with external clock source.

I've been using my own design of ICSP programmer for a few months now with
no
problems.

Until now I've only ever used crystals (From 1MHz up to 20MHz) for the
master
clock source.  Yesterday I tried using an external clock source (for better
accuracy) and ran into problems.

When I put my programmer into program mode the target pic doesn't recognise
the
"Enter HV programming" sequence and instead starts running its program.

Somewhere I remember seeing a reference to "Not more than SoMany clock
pulses"
in a timing diagram to do with start up/reset/enter programming mode.  I've
just had a look in the 16F877 data sheets and I can't find again.

Is my problem cause by the external clock source starting up quicker than
the
internal oscillator+xtal would start ?

Peter.

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2002\01\21@164403 by uter van ooijen & floortje hanneman

picon face
> Somewhere I remember seeing a reference to "Not more than SoMany clock
pulses"
> in a timing diagram to do with start up/reset/enter programming mode.
I've
> just had a look in the 16F877 data sheets and I can't find again.

The "Not more than SoMany clock pulses" refers to the time that MCLR takes
to rise from Vcc to Vpp. But AFAIK when that limit is violated the PIC
enters programming mode, but with the PC not equal to zero. I think this is
decsribed in the programming manual(s).

Wouter van Ooijen

Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
Jal compiler for PIC uC's:  http://www.voti.nl/jal
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2002\01\22@044424 by Peter Onion

flavicon
face
On 21-Jan-02 Niklas Wennerstrand wrote:
> If you use external clock that runs at startup you can gett problem.

Yes I know :-)

> RC oscillators starts quick and a caned clocksource runs from the start if
> you have that powered on before the PIC.
> Crystall oscillator take some time to start and after that you have 1024
> clock cycle count in the PIC just to be sure the oscillator is stable.
> My advise is to dissable the external oscillation by a pulldown on OSC inut
> during programming.

Ok, that sounds a good idea.

> External crystall is usually not a problem.

I've not had any problems when using external Xtals.

> Have a look in the programming specification for the PIC you use. There you
> can find critical time for Vpp and Vdd etc.

I did look but I couldn't find the particular information I was looking for.  I
later realised it may be in the ICSP specification data sheet.


Since this only causes a problem on my development board I can use an xtal in
that and only put the higher accuracy external "canned clock source" on the
final version of the hardware.

Thanks for the pointers.

Peter.

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'[PIC]: ICSP Capacitance question...'
2002\01\23@141301 by Tim Webb

flavicon
face
Is it ok to have capacitance between Vcc & GND during ICSP?

Or will this cause problems too?

Tim

{Original Message removed}

2002\01\24@072234 by Peter Onion

flavicon
face
On 23-Jan-02 Tim Webb wrote:
> Is it ok to have capacitance between Vcc & GND during ICSP?

Yes that is OK, and is probably essential as there is "stuff" going on inside
the PIC (eeprom programming etc) that will still need a properly decoupled
power supply.

I think the issue is to do with capacitance on the pins used for ICSP (RB6,7)
and the drive capability of the circuit driving them.

I have RB6,7 of the target ZIP socket wired directly to pins on the 16F628
that does the ICSP in the programmer.

I can program devices even with a LCD module wired to PORTB on the target, but
not with a simple LED port monitoring device attached to PORTB.

NOTE: When ever the target PIC is NOT in ICSP mode the pins on the 16F628 are
set as inputs.


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E-Mail: Peter Onion <STOPspamponion.....spamsrd.bt.co.uk>
Date: 24-Jan-02
Time: 10:24:39

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2002\01\24@073716 by Vasile Surducan

flavicon
face
it's ok for small capacitors, ie: 100nF to a few uF.
even with external supply connected the icsp will work.

On Wed, 23 Jan 2002, Tim Webb wrote:

> Is it ok to have capacitance between Vcc & GND during ICSP?
>
> Or will this cause problems too?
>
> Tim
>
> {Original Message removed}

'[PIC]: 16F628 + WARP13 ICSP, Success!'
2002\01\24@081652 by Stephan Burlot

flavicon
face
Hi,

I've just received a 16F628 today, and since I've read much about the
incompatibility between the 628 and the WARP-13, I tried and I'm glad it
worked.

I had to download the latest version of the warp software (BTW, I found a
new page for Newfound at http://www.newfoundelectronics.com/, dont know I
did get there, but the version of the warp13 is not the same as the one at
http://users.pipeline.com.au/newfound/, ie I got the warp13 v1.05), tied
pin10 to ground, played with the config options (I had only used 16f84 till
now), and it worked.

The only thing annoying is to set pin10 to gnd.

I use Win98 + Warp 1.05 beta and the programmer is a WARP-13a.

Stephan

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'[PIC]: ICSP Capacitance question...'
2002\01\25@074740 by x

flavicon
face
> Is it ok to have capacitance between Vcc & GND during ICSP?
>
> Or will this cause problems too?
>
> Tim

My experience is that even a 100nF may cause problems. It seems that Vcc
cannot rise fast enough and thereby strange error messages are coming
from MPLAB.
Put the capacitor to the other end of the header, that works.

Sincerely:

Bela

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2002\01\25@113838 by Peter Onion

flavicon
face
On 24-Jan-02 Peter Onion wrote:
> On 23-Jan-02 Tim Webb wrote:
>> Is it ok to have capacitance between Vcc & GND during ICSP?
>
> Yes that is OK, and is probably essential as there is "stuff" going on inside
> the PIC (eeprom programming etc) that will still need a properly decoupled
> power supply.
>
> I think the issue is to do with capacitance on the pins used for ICSP (RB6,7)
> and the drive capability of the circuit driving them.

Having reviewed the ICSP Guide (30277b.pdf) there are issues about the amount
of "C" on the power supply lines as well.  Its worth a read as it covers
situation where the PIC is programmed in the application circuit.  The large
amounts of decoupling "C" can cause the rise time for Vcc to be too long if the
programmer can't supply enough current to quickly charge up these capacitors.

I guess if you are using a commercial programmer then you need to check how
quickly the supply does come up.  In my own programmer I actually switch the
+15V input of a 7805 so upto 1A is available to charge the decoupling
capacitors.

Peter.


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2002\01\25@134150 by WEBB,TIM (A-Sonoma,ex1)

flavicon
face
Well, I breadboarded the situation for ICSP using my PicStart Plus
Programmer using a ribbon cable and put two .1uf caps (one on each side of
the PIC (16F877) between the Vcc and Gnd connections and have been able to
re-program the pic without any errors in MPLAB.  I guess that means that the
drive capability of the programmer is good.



{Original Message removed}

'[PIC]: 16LF627 ICSP problems'
2002\01\30@092550 by tcrist

flavicon
face
I'm having trouble ICSP programming my 16LF627's.  The 16F627's program
fine.  My circuit has a 10K pullup on MLCR, and RB6 and RB7 are not attached
to anything.  There is less than a 10mA load on Vcc.

Here's my processor configuration:

       __CONFIG _PWRTE_ON & _WDT_OFF & _LVP_OFF & _INTRC_OSC_NOCLKOUT & _MCLRE_ON
& _CP_OFF & _BODEN_ON

My Promate II is using the ICSP module as I said the same circuit w/ the
16F627 programs fine.

Promate II settings:
device = 16F627 (there's no LF option)
vdd min = 3.0V
Vdd max = 5.5V
Vpp = 13.0V
no sqtp
low voltage program not enabled

Any suggestions?

Thanks,

Tim Crist

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'[PICLIST] ICSP'
2002\02\13@071424 by Jafta
flavicon
face
Hi All

I have been programming with  PICSTART+ programmer and MPLAB for quite
a while.  As I have moved to SOIC (16F628, 16F876/7), I wish to do
in-circuit serial programming.  The prices for adaptors (SOIC to DIL)
are absolutely crazy!

Would it be possible to use the PS+ with an adapter cable to programme
the SOIC's in-circuit, and if so, could somebody please give me some
pointers on how to go about it?

TYIA

Regards

Chris Albrecht

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2002\02\13@085015 by Jafta

flavicon
face
Re-sent as I forgot the tag in my previous message:


Hi All

I have been programming with  PICSTART+ programmer and MPLAB for quite
a while.  As I have now moved to SOIC (16F628, 16F876/7), I wish to do
in-circuit programming.  The prices for adaptors (SOIC to DIL)
are absolutely crazy!

Would it be possible to use the PS+ with an adapter cable to programme
the SOIC's in-circuit, and if so, could somebody please give me some
pointers on how to go about it?

TYIA

Regards

Chris Albrecht

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2002\02\13@110810 by Alan Gorham

flavicon
face
>
>Would it be possible to use the PS+ with an adapter cable to programme
>the SOIC's in-circuit, and if so, could somebody please give me some
>pointers on how to go about it?
>
>TYIA
>
>Regards
>
>Chris Albrecht
>

Hi Chris
I use the PS+ and an adapter to program a 16F874.
One or two things I picked up from the list are:

a) Ensure you have the latest version of MPLAB and also the PS+ firmware.
    I had problems with MPLAB v5.00 and PS+ v2.01 and had to upgrade for
ICSP.

b) Refer to page 136 of the 16f87x manual for details of which I/O pins will
be used for ICSP.
    Typically, RB6, RB7 are the serial data and clock pins and /MCLR/Vpp
will have the programming
    voltage applied to it. You have to isolate the /MCLR pin from Vcc when
in programming mode.
    Page 512 of the PIC midrange manual shows the connection you need
better than I can explain.

I use a 5-pin header in my application PCB to connect my ICSP lead to.

Hope this gives you a small start anyway!

Alan

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2002\02\13@121612 by Andre Abelian

picon face
Tyia,

Keep in your mind except base line pics all other
Pic gets programmed serially when you put then on PS+.
It uses RB6, RB7, MCLR, GND, 5V pins to program them.
For home use I think it is ok but for production use
I recommend PROMATE 2 with ICSP socket on it. I use
It for long time it is the best. I also use PGM2000
Not bad but once in a while I have to call them to make
It work or to pay for firmware update. Microchip never
Charged for firmware update and they always have the update on time.

Andre Abelian




{Quote hidden}

Hi Chris
I use the PS+ and an adapter to program a 16F874.
One or two things I picked up from the list are:

a) Ensure you have the latest version of MPLAB and also the PS+
firmware.
    I had problems with MPLAB v5.00 and PS+ v2.01 and had to upgrade
for
ICSP.

b) Refer to page 136 of the 16f87x manual for details of which I/O pins
will
be used for ICSP.
    Typically, RB6, RB7 are the serial data and clock pins and
/MCLR/Vpp
will have the programming
    voltage applied to it. You have to isolate the /MCLR pin from Vcc
when
in programming mode.
    Page 512 of the PIC midrange manual shows the connection you need
better than I can explain.

I use a 5-pin header in my application PCB to connect my ICSP lead to.

Hope this gives you a small start anyway!

Alan

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2002\02\13@191531 by Dwayne Reid

flavicon
face
At 02:12 PM 2/13/02 +0200, Jafta wrote:
>Hi All
>
>Would it be possible to use the PS+ with an adapter cable to programme
>the SOIC's in-circuit, and if so, could somebody please give me some
>pointers on how to go about it?

Microchip has a document that talks about ICSP - it shows you how to buffer
Vdd & Vpp to achieve fast rise times to overcome circuit capacitances.  I
don't have the document # handy but I found it just be looking at their
ICSP stuff.

dwayne


Dwayne Reid   <spamBeGonedwaynerKILLspamspamKILLspamplanet.eon.net>
Trinity Electronics Systems Ltd    Edmonton, AB, CANADA
(780) 489-3199 voice          (780) 487-6397 fax

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2002\02\14@080713 by Jafta

flavicon
face
Thanks Alan, I got it working.  Used your info with only a slight mod.
Now I have to get my circuit working without unplugging the
programmer.

Andre, I am using the PS+ only for proto's.  Onother company will do
the production.  Thanks for your feedback

Regards

Chris A

{Original Message removed}

2002\02\14@131815 by miked

flavicon
face
One idea that was posted here(I think) is to get one of those SOIC test clips that
clamp on the IC to bring out the pins for probe attachment. Solder wires from the
probe posts to a header type socket. Plug the socket into the burner and insert the
IC into the test clip(upside down).
{Quote hidden}

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2002\02\14@170744 by Stuart Meier

flavicon
picon face
> One idea that was posted here(I think) is to get one of those SOIC
test clips that
> clamp on the IC to bring out the pins for probe attachment. Solder
wires from the
> probe posts to a header type socket. Plug the socket into the burner
and insert the
> IC into the test clip(upside down).

Well, I asked about it in ...1999, and I have that suggestion it in my
personal Piclist archive, see below. YOu still Picstering Phil Eiserman?

5250 still available now, see
http://www.pomonaelectronics.com/pdf/d5250-54_5437_1_01.pdf  it now
costs $12 from
http://www.emulation.com/cgi-cfm/insert_quantity.cfm?part_number=5250

I might just get round to buying one real soon now...

Stuart

<snip>
> Hi,
>
> > I have a bunch of smt SOIC PICS (12c508/16f84) to programme. The
> only socket
> > I have seen to take them costs #60 ($100)!

From: "Eisermann, Phil" <spamBeGonepeisermaspamRIDGID.COM>
To: <EraseMEPICLISTEraseMEspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: 15 March 1999 14:31
Subject: Re: Programming smt PICS

       I found a SOIC clip that fits nicely onto an 8-pin
       SMT PIC. It's from ITT-Pomona (they are on the
       net, http://www.pomonaelectronics.com/), part #5250.

       I ordered it through a company called Hughes-Peters.
       cost was around $9 plus shipping.

       don't know how applicable it is for programming; i'd
       be afraid that the tension of the spring would break
       off (or at least bend) the fragile gull-wing leads.

       however, you could remove the spring, and use a small
       rubberband to hold the jaws together. The other end
       of the clip fits into the ZIF socket of my PICSTART+
       programmer. i'm not going to do that to my only SOIC
       clip, but if someone does try this, please post results
       to the list for our future enlightenment (or at least
       mine, i'm sure there will be a need sometime in the
       future).

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'[PIC]: PIC16F874 ICSP programming problems'
2002\02\28@105037 by Rich Mcelroy

flavicon
face
I'm trying to program a PIC16F874 in circuit with a picstart plus(firmware
ver. 2.30).  It is not letting me program it.  I have read the different
problems on PIC FAQ and how programming the code protect first into the
config bits only will solve this.  That's not working for me either.
Anybody experienced this problem and how did you work around it?  I would
appreciate any help you could give me.

Thanks


Richard McElroy
CST Corporation
450 S. Cips St.
Watseka, IL 60970

815-432-6859 ext. 775

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'[PIC]: PIC16F874 ICSP programming problems'
2002\03\01@070225 by Alan Gorham
flavicon
face
Hi Richard
I program my F874 exactly the same way.
I need a bit more information before I can help.
What version of MPLAB are you using?

I'm unsure about why you are "programming the code protect first into the
config bits".
Can you tell me what all your config settings are?

Also a quick sketch or description of the isolation scheme you used for
/MCLR/Vpp pin
will help.

Speak soon

Alan
{Original Message removed}


'[PIC]: ICSP an 80 pin TQFP with a picstart plus?'
2002\04\01@021106 by info
flavicon
face
How would I go about programming an 80 pin tqfp part (PIC18C858) with a
picstart plus using ICSP?
Thanks

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'[PIC]: ICSP Programmer'
2002\04\10@235719 by Claudio Martin

picon face
Hi everybody:
I have a 16f874 and i've prepared the circuit to be programmed on board
using low voltage programming (ICSP). Does anybody know where can i get a
serial programmer cicuit for this porpouse?
Thanks in advance



_________________________________________________________________
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2002\04\11@062433 by Hubba

flavicon
face
> Hi everybody:
> I have a 16f874 and i've prepared the circuit to be programmed on board
> using low voltage programming (ICSP). Does anybody know where can i get a
> serial programmer cicuit for this porpouse?

You can buy one at http://www.olimex.com/dev/  (PIC-PG1) for 7$. You will
need to pull the PGM pin to GND. If you want to build it yourself, look for
the schematics link at their description of the the PIC-PG1.

Best regards,

Jacob Grydholt

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2002\04\11@214450 by Carlos Tassara

flavicon
face
Hi Claudio,

Why don't you try the Petr Komaznik's and Shane Tolmie's downloader instead.
You don't have to make any changes to your hardware, except adding a MAX232,
that at least in my case, is there all the time.

You can download the software directly from your PC into the '874 in seconds
and it doesn't interfere with your software when you are not downloading.

Great stuff!

If you are interested :  http://www.workingtechnologies.com/

Hope this helps

Chao

Carlos
{Original Message removed}

2002\04\15@094953 by Claudio Martin

picon face
Thanks Jacob, I`ll try this one.


{Quote hidden}

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'[PIC]: MCLR vs. ICSP: Clash of Titans'
2002\04\26@122608 by Lawrence Lile

flavicon
face
I am using a circuit (beaten to death last week on the PIClist) with a
capacitor on MCLR, which improves noise immunity.  I discovered when trying
to in-circuit-serial-program, that ICSP does not seem to work when this
capacitor is in place.  Remove the capacitor, and ICSP works OK.  What
exactly does ICSP do to MCLR besides raising it to 13 volts or so?

Now, I am using an adapter hacked into a PICstart plus, admittedly not the
best ICSP adapter.  My target board supplies it's own 5V, so I am not
straining the wimpy 5V supply on  the picstart.

On the bench, this isn't a big problem, just program it and then install the
capacitor.  But in production, we've got a gorilla of a different cage
altogether.  They will want to have the capacitors and PIC all installed,
then squirt the program into the PIC, test the board then assemble the unit.
Nobody wants to have to build the board, then program it, then add some more
components by hand, then assemble it into a unit.

OK, so how are we going to get around this one?

-- Lawrence Lile
Sr. Project Engineer
Salton inc. Toastmaster Div.
573-446-5661 Voice
573-446-5676 Fax

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2002\04\26@124055 by Kevin Blain

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face
Microchip suggests a R / C / diode arrangement on the PIC for ICSP.

The diode blocks the effect of the capacitor during programming. MCLR
has to rise pretty quickly, IIRC.

Regards, Kevin

> {Original Message removed}

2002\04\26@134135 by Lawrence Lile

flavicon
face
Yep, that is the arrtangement I am using, 10K to 5v, 1 uF to ground, 1n4148
from the junction to MCLR.  I get a verify error every time I program,
although the program seems to operate OK.

--Lawrence
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kevin Blain" <kevinbRemoveMEspamWOODANDDOUGLAS.CO.UK>
To: <spamPICLISTspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Friday, April 26, 2002 11:33 AM
Subject: Re: [PIC]: MCLR vs. ICSP: Clash of Titans


> Microchip suggests a R / C / diode arrangement on the PIC for ICSP.
>
> The diode blocks the effect of the capacitor during programming. MCLR
> has to rise pretty quickly, IIRC.
>
> Regards, Kevin
>
> > {Original Message removed}

2002\04\26@140034 by Dwayne Reid

flavicon
face
At 11:24 AM 4/26/02 -0500, Lawrence Lile wrote:
>I am using a circuit (beaten to death last week on the PIClist) with a
>capacitor on MCLR, which improves noise immunity.  I discovered when trying
>to in-circuit-serial-program, that ICSP does not seem to work when this
>capacitor is in place.  Remove the capacitor, and ICSP works OK.  What
>exactly does ICSP do to MCLR besides raising it to 13 volts or so?
>
>Now, I am using an adapter hacked into a PICstart plus, admittedly not the
>best ICSP adapter.  My target board supplies it's own 5V, so I am not
>straining the wimpy 5V supply on  the picstart.

Do you have a current booster on the MCLR line from the
programmer?  Microchip has published at least 1 ICSP guide showing this -
essentially, its a unity gain buffer with lots of current gain (1 section
of op-amp, 1 emitter follower transistor, unity gain).  They show 2 of
similar sections: 1 for VDD, 1 for MCLR.

I suspect you are not getting MCLR high enough fast enough.  The current
boost circuit added to your programming adapter may be all you need to fix
the problem.

dwayne


Dwayne Reid   <dwaynerspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTplanet.eon.net>
Trinity Electronics Systems Ltd    Edmonton, AB, CANADA
(780) 489-3199 voice          (780) 487-6397 fax

Celebrating 18 years of Engineering Innovation (1984 - 2002)
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2002\04\26@141129 by Paul Hutchinson

flavicon
face
How about programming the PIC's in a gang programmer before assembly.

Cuts down the man hours per unit as well.

Paul

> {Original Message removed}

2002\04\26@144351 by uter van ooijen & floortje hanneman

picon face
> exactly does ICSP do to MCLR besides raising it to 13 volts or so?

rising it *quickly*

Could you split the R and connect the cap to the split-point?

Wouter van Ooijen
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2002\04\26@154435 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
> Yep, that is the arrtangement I am using, 10K to 5v, 1 uF to ground,
1n4148
> from the junction to MCLR.  I get a verify error every time I program,
> although the program seems to operate OK.

1uF sounds awfully high.  Have you tried 100nF?


*****************************************************************
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(978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com

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2002\04\29@104525 by Lawrence Lile

flavicon
face
Mebbe that is the problem.  I'll try a smaller cap today.

--Lawrence
----- Original Message -----
From: "Olin Lathrop" <.....olin_piclistspam.....EMBEDINC.COM>
To: <spamPICLISTKILLspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Friday, April 26, 2002 2:43 PM
Subject: Re: [PIC]: MCLR vs. ICSP: Clash of Titans


{Quote hidden}

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'[PIC]: ICSP for PIC with smart Voltage component.'
2002\05\07@142013 by iklas Wennerstrand
picon face
Hello people,

I'm thinking of building a small ICSP programmer for the PICmicro.
I would like to be able to set the I/O pins to voltage values between 1-14V
and I want them to source as much current as possible.
I also want them to change voltages during programming.
What I can do is use OPamps and Microchips digital potentiometers to do
that.
But there must be some nice component that can do that in a smarter way?
Does somebody have a suggestion?

Regards
Niklas

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'[PIC]: ICSP Connector pinout?'
2002\05\17@075823 by Hazelwood Lyle

flavicon
face
Greetings all,

I am sending my data off to the board house next week.
(thanks to everyone for the eagle pointers!)
My layout includes a 5 pin connector for ICSP.
I was able to reserve RB6 and RB7 exclusively for
this, and I've added a jumper between VCC and VDD so
that the chip power can be isolated while in circuit.

I am wondering if there is a "standard" order for the
pins in this connector. I don't mind making up my own,
but if there is a common sequence, I'd prefer to follow it.

I'm using a polarized header, AMP 5 pin 0.1" pitch,
AMP #641213-5,DK #A23900-ND

Thanks,
Lyle Hazelwood

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2002\05\17@084609 by Lawrence Lile

flavicon
face
I have wondered the same thing.  For a while, I used a connector that mated
with my Microengineering Labs EPIC in-circuit programmer.  This was a rather
cumbersome 10 pin header.  Later, I hacked a 5 pin 0.100" centers adapter.
I think the pin order was gnd-RB6-RB7-MCLR-5V, but that is just what I made
up.

Some MCHIP proggers use a 6 position RJ-6 telephone jack, which I think is
kind of cumbersome.

I think you are on the right track, using about the smallest jack that can
talk to an ICSP programmer.  Use a polarized header.  Other than that I
don't think there is a standard.

On a similar note, when you have to use RB6 and RB7 in your circuit, what do
people do to isolate them during ICSP?  I have considered a jumper, which
seems klunky.  I understand some programmers drive these pins with an
impedance of about 1.75K, so any load on these pins would have to be much
higher, say 10K.  I could see driving a 10K resistor to the base of a
transistor to operate a load of some kind.  How have other people isolated
RB6 and RB7?

--Lawrence

{Original Message removed}

'[PIC]: Any programmer good for ICSP'
2002\05\17@105224 by Tal Dayan

flavicon
face
Can any programmer that can program 16f84 be used also to program 16f84
in circuit ?

In my specific case, this is the El Cheapo Programmer.

Thanks,

Tal

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'[PIC]: ICSP Connector pinout?'
2002\05\17@105228 by uter van ooijen & floortje hanneman

picon face
One definite standard is the pinout of the chip as defined by uChip, so -
when you use a DIP housing - a DIP clip will never fail and does not take up
space on the PCB :)

Other than that I now often use a 2x8 pin header, because my programmer
happens to have a D15M connector and D15F <==> pin header cables are
abundant (from old PC game cards).

Wouter van Ooijen
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2002\05\17@110040 by John Dammeyer

flavicon
face
I use a six pin SIP type header where I don't have the room for the RJ
connector.  The pinout remains the same and I have a small converter I
wired up that has an RJ socket on one end and a 6 pin square post header
on the other.  I make the circuit board pins just small enough so the
header is a friction fit into the board.  I then dangle my PIC ICD
programmer into the project, program it or single step debug it.

My PIC16F877  CAN Activity board uses the RJ connector.

John



Wireless CAN with the CANRF module.
www.autoartisans.com/documents/canrf_prod_announcement.pdf
Automation Artisans Inc.
Ph. 1 250 544 4950


> {Original Message removed}

'[PIC]: Any programmer good for ICSP'
2002\05\17@110506 by uter van ooijen & floortje hanneman

picon face
> Can any programmer that can program 16f84 be used also to program 16f84
> in circuit ?

Definetely no (although some cn). What can somethimes help is to remove the
crystal while programming.

Wouter van Ooijen
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'[PIC]: ICSP Connector pinout?'
2002\05\17@120704 by Colin Constant

flavicon
face
Olimex had a serial programmer with a six pin plug.  They had a separate page
with the pinout.  I can't seem to find it now though.

Colin





Hazelwood Lyle <KILLspamLHazelwood.....spamKILLspamMFGNC.COM>.....spamKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU> on 05/17/2002 04:56:23 AM

Please respond to pic microcontroller discussion list <PICLISTspam_OUTspamspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU>

Sent by:    pic microcontroller discussion list <KILLspamPICLISTspam@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU>


To:    @spam@PICLISTRemoveMEspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
cc:     (bcc: Colin Constant-NR/RMD/Raytheon/CA)

Subject:    [PIC]: ICSP Connector pinout?


Greetings all,

I am sending my data off to the board house next week.
(thanks to everyone for the eagle pointers!)
My layout includes a 5 pin connector for ICSP.
I was able to reserve RB6 and RB7 exclusively for
this, and I've added a jumper between VCC and VDD so
that the chip power can be isolated while in circuit.

I am wondering if there is a "standard" order for the
pins in this connector. I don't mind making up my own,
but if there is a common sequence, I'd prefer to follow it.

I'm using a polarized header, AMP 5 pin 0.1" pitch,
AMP #641213-5,DK #A23900-ND

Thanks,
Lyle Hazelwood

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'[PIC]: Any programmer good for ICSP'
2002\05\17@145115 by Byron A Jeff

face picon face
On Fri, May 17, 2002 at 07:50:07AM -0700, Tal Dayan wrote:
> Can any programmer that can program 16f84 be used also to program 16f84
> in circuit ?

Doubtful. The clock causes some real issues. I'm experiencing this myself
with my Trivial LVP programmer:

http://www.finitesite.com/d3jsys

in its current state it has issues with the internal clock oscillator.

>
> In my specific case, this is the El Cheapo Programmer.

The programmer isn't really the issue, the target is. Some tips:

1) Be sure that there are resistors between the programmer's CLK/DATA pins and
the target. This ensures that if the target sets those pins to outputs that
buffers don't get blown.

2) Be careful with MCLR. Be doubly careful because often MCLR is either tied
directly to Vdd or pulled up through a resistor. If the pullup resistor is
already in place then you are probably OK. However you'll have a problem if
it's tied directly to the power supply. Be sure that the programmer has enough
juice to pull the pullup resistor to low.

3) The clock is a major issue. If it's running when you try to program it'll
often screw your programming process up. I've found that an external oscillator
through a resistor is ideal because you can then add a transistor to pull the
clock line low when programming. Does anyone know of the effect of an inline
resistor between a crystal and OSC1?

4) Lastly the programmer needs to be able to control Vdd. So the programmer
needs to be able to power the target.

Just a couple of final notes. First is that I use 16F877 parts precisely
because they are self programmable and so all of the issues go POOF! like
magic because the part is running normally. Second is the standing info
about 16F84s. They are obsolete. Check out the reasons:

http://www.finitesite.com/d3jsys/16F628.html

Hope this helps,

BAJ

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2002\05\17@155627 by uter van ooijen & floortje hanneman

picon face
> Be sure that the programmer has enough
> juice to pull the pullup resistor to low.

And more important, to pull it high to 13 Volt!

> 3) The clock is a major issue. If it's running when you try to program
it'll
> often screw your programming process up.

That is essentially the same problem: /MCLR must be pulled up to 13 Volt
*quickly* (expressed in the number of clock cycles, hence removing the
crystal or having a low frequency will help somewhat).

> 4) Lastly the programmer needs to be able to control Vdd. So the
programmer
> needs to be able to power the target.

Why?

Wouter van Ooijen
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'[PIC]: ICSP Connector pinout?'
2002\05\17@173813 by Tom Handley

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   Check out Microchip's ICSP document:

      DS30277C - In-Circuit Serial Programming (ICSP) Guide

   I don't have the link handy and the above document is from 2000 so it may
have been updated. They use a 5-pin header.

   Tech Tools has released a new PIC programmer called QuickWriter which
supports ICSP and includes a cable with a 7-pin header for the target
(one pin is the key). They have a good application note about implementing
ICSP in your design. Though they focus on QuickWriter, it applies to any
ICSP application. For more info see:

      http://www.tech-tools.com/hwt20.htm

   For more info on QuickWriter, see:

      http://www.tech-tools.com/qwmain.htm

   - Tom

At 05:43 17-05-02, Lawrence wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>{Original Message removed}

'[PIC]: Any programmer good for ICSP'
2002\05\17@185511 by Mark J. Dulcey

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face
Byron A Jeff wrote:
> On Fri, May 17, 2002 at 07:50:07AM -0700, Tal Dayan wrote:
>
>>Can any programmer that can program 16f84 be used also to program 16f84
>>in circuit ?
>
>
> Doubtful. The clock causes some real issues. I'm experiencing this myself
> with my Trivial LVP programmer:
>
> http://www.finitesite.com/d3jsys
>
> in its current state it has issues with the internal clock oscillator.

> 3) The clock is a major issue. If it's running when you try to program it'll
> often screw your programming process up. I've found that an external oscillator
> through a resistor is ideal because you can then add a transistor to pull the
> clock line low when programming. Does anyone know of the effect of an inline
> resistor between a crystal and OSC1?

I believe that to reliably program parts with internal oscillators, your
programmer design has to be able to control Vcc as well as Vpp (for high
voltage programming) or RBn/PGM (for low voltage programming, where n=3
for the 16F87x, 4 for the 16F62x, or 5 for the 18Fxxx). The idea is that
you avoid powering up the part until you're ready to program it; you
have to raise both simultaneously or nearly so, so that the program on
the chip doesn't start running before you get it into programming mode.
(Unless you have disabled the power-on reset timer, you have 72
milliseconds before the code starts to run.)

This clearly presents real problems for an ICSP design, since you
generally won't have such control over the main power supply lines. I'm
not sure what the answer is then.

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'[PIC]: ICSP Connector pinout?'
2002\05\17@203156 by Matt Pobursky

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face
On Fri, 17 May 2002 07:43:23 -0500, Lawrence Lile wrote:
>I have wondered the same thing.  For a while, I used a connector
>that mated with my Microengineering Labs EPIC in-circuit
>programmer.  This was a rather cumbersome 10 pin header.  Later,
>I hacked a 5 pin 0.100" centers adapter.
>I think the pin order was gnd-RB6-RB7-MCLR-5V, but that is just
>what I made up.

I normally use a single row 5 pin .1" header with the pinout
shown in the Microchip ICSP Guide. It matches the pinout of my
ProPIC ICSP programmer (an excellent programmer, BTW). If I'm
going to use a different programmer (like a Promate II with ICSP
module), I make a custom cable that matches that pinout.

>On a similar note, when you have to use RB6 and RB7 in your
>circuit, what do people do to isolate them during ICSP?  I have
>considered a jumper, which seems klunky.  I understand some
>programmers drive these pins with an impedance of about 1.75K,
>so any load on these pins would have to be much higher, say 10K.
>I could see driving a 10K resistor to the base of a transistor
>to operate a load of some kind.  How have other people isolated
>RB6 and RB7?

Most of my designs have either switches, keypads, or option
jumpers. I make sure I put them on RB6 and RB7, that way they are
normally open and present no load on the pins at all. You have to
be careful with option jumpers though, so these are a "last
resort" solution. Another benefit of putting switch type inputs
on Port B is the programmable internal pullup resistors, which
eliminates the need for external resistors and lowers the design
cost.

Matt Pobursky
Maximum Performance Systems

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2002\05\17@203859 by Matt Pobursky

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On Fri, 17 May 2002 08:02:44 -0700, John Dammeyer wrote:
>I use a six pin SIP type header where I don't have the room for
>the RJ connector.  The pinout remains the same and I have a
>small converter I wired up that has an RJ socket on one end and
>a 6 pin square post header on the other.  I make the circuit
>board pins just small enough so the header is a friction fit
>into the board.  I then dangle my PIC ICD programmer into the
>project, program it or single step debug it.
>
>My PIC16F877  CAN Activity board uses the RJ connector.

I hate RJ type connectors. They take up a ton of PC board space
for so few connections. Cables (good ones at least) for them are
kind of a pain to obtain/make too, unless you want to use
Cat3/Cat5 cable and tools.

Just my 2¢...

Matt Pobursky
Maximum Performance Systems

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2002\05\17@220444 by Mark J. Dulcey

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Matt Pobursky wrote:
> On Fri, 17 May 2002 08:02:44 -0700, John Dammeyer wrote:
>
>>I use a six pin SIP type header where I don't have the room for
>>the RJ connector.  The pinout remains the same and I have a
>>small converter I wired up that has an RJ socket on one end and
>>a 6 pin square post header on the other.  I make the circuit
>>board pins just small enough so the header is a friction fit
>>into the board.  I then dangle my PIC ICD programmer into the
>>project, program it or single step debug it.
>>
>>My PIC16F877  CAN Activity board uses the RJ connector.
>
>
> I hate RJ type connectors. They take up a ton of PC board space
> for so few connections. Cables (good ones at least) for them are
> kind of a pain to obtain/make too, unless you want to use
> Cat3/Cat5 cable and tools.

But premade Cat5 cables are so readily available in various lengths and
colors. And they're cheap. Why would you want to make them?

Yes, they do take up some board space. But so will anything else that's
suitable for connections to the outside world. Yes, there are some
smaller alternatives, such as the connectors for USB, but those
connectors aren't easy to find yet.

I think Microchip's choice of modular connectors is partly motivated by
that. The idea is that you may want to retain ICSP capability in a
finished product, not just at the breadboard stage, so you need a
connector that's appropriate to expose to the outside world. SIP headers
and the like won't fill that need.

(Disclaimer: I'm working on a project that will use Cat5 cables to
connect the various pieces together, largely because the cables are so
easy to get. I want the thing to be easily reproduced by others, and
taking fiddly cable building out of the picture is one way to do that.)

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2002\05\17@220645 by John Dammeyer

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Hi Matt,

I quite agree.  An if you decide to save space and use the vertical ones
the 1..6 pinout is reversed.  That caught an engineer friend of mine.  I
tried to program the units and they wouldn't.  Some troubleshooting and
we found the problem and made up a special 4" cable. Aarrrrggghh.

However,  they are nice wiping contacts,  are easy to slip in and out
and I went back to them after trying the molex keyed locking connectors.
Like I said earlier,  for some boards they are easy to use,  for others
there are other options.

For one project I'd like to fabricate a bed of nails tester/programmer
panel.  Does anyone have any experience with those spring like pins.
Where to get small qty, what size holes to install into. Etc.

Thanks.

John Dammeyer


{Quote hidden}

Wireless CAN with the CANRF module.
www.autoartisans.com/documents/canrf_prod_announcement.pdf
Automation Artisans Inc.
Ph. 1 250 544 4950

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'[PIC]: Any programmer good for ICSP'
2002\05\17@221053 by Tal (Zapta)

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We are using an external RC oscilator. Does this means that once we program
the
'blank' chip to use external oscilator, we can then program it in circuit
while
disabling the external oscilator (e.g. by short circuiting the RC capacitor)
?

(I would like to use the El Cheapo http://www.myke.com/elcheapo.htm with
16LF84)

Thanks,

Tal


> {Original Message removed}

'[PIC]: ICSP Connector pinout?'
2002\05\17@225851 by Matt Pobursky

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face
On Fri, 17 May 2002 22:00:38 -0400, Mark J. Dulcey wrote:
>Matt Pobursky wrote:
>>I hate RJ type connectors. They take up a ton of PC board space
>>for so few connections. Cables (good ones at least) for them
>>are kind of a pain to obtain/make too, unless you want to use
>>Cat3/Cat5 cable and tools.
>
>But premade Cat5 cables are so readily available in various
>lengths and colors. And they're cheap. Why would you want to
>make them?

True, as long as you are connecting RJ jack to RJ jack... No
commercial device programmers I've used have ever used RJ jacks
for connections though ;-)

{Quote hidden}

Maybe it's because I've been designing "real world" products for
so long, but the last thing I want is for an end user to have
easy access to my ICSP port. Fine if you are designing a
development board or other tool that requires software to be
changed a lot. But for a production product that will be used by
a non-technical end user, it's a jack that screams out "Plug a
phone line into me!". Of all the field software upgradeable
products I've designed, I'd say they average less than *one*
actual software upgrade over the life of the product. As long as
it's not incredibly inconvenient to get at the programming jack,
I'd rather make it somewhat "out of the way". To me, hanging the
ICSP (and PIC pins) open to the world is just asking for trouble.

>(Disclaimer: I'm working on a project that will use Cat5 cables
>to connect the various pieces together, largely because the
>cables are so easy to get. I want the thing to be easily
>reproduced by others, and taking fiddly cable building out of
>the picture is one way to do that.)

I think this is a *fabulous* use of RJ jacks. Dead easy for the
end user and they have a function which must be easily accessible
to the end user. Using standard cables makes perfect sense.

Matt Pobursky
Maximum Performance Systems

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2002\05\17@231133 by Matt Pobursky

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On Fri, 17 May 2002 19:08:46 -0700, John Dammeyer wrote:
>For one project I'd like to fabricate a bed of nails
>tester/programmer panel.  Does anyone have any experience with
>those spring like pins.
>Where to get small qty, what size holes to install into. Etc.

John,

Interesting, I just got done converting a PIC16C926 based board
away from a spring contact programming setup. We had lots of
problems with intermittent contact and bad programming. Not such
a large problem for flash based MCU's, but deadly on a tiny (1.5"
x 2.5"), dense board with a TQFP64 PIC chip. Can you say "Program
Error - trash the board"? The PC board layout could accept .1"
pin headers though, so we added the small cost of them (maybe 10¢
or so) and the problem is no more... glad I used the "stick a
header in the holes for programming my prototypes" method -- it
turns out that a permanent header was the most reliable solution
and required no additional changes to the board.

I have used the spring pins before with success. One company is
(was) Augat Pylon. They are brand named Pogo contacts. Since
being acquired by Tyco, I'm not sure what their name is anymore.
You should be able to do a google search and find their web site.

The above mentioned board assembly is still being tested on a
"bed of nails" fixture, using Pogo contacts. Pylon also makes
blank test fixture enclosures and can provide applications
notes/help to get you started.

It seems the main problems I've run into are intermittent
contacts caused by PC board manufacturing variations which can
result in uneven pressure on the contact-to-board interface.
Oxidation and corrosion, as well as surface contaminants can also
cause problems. It seems like every board assembly and test
fixture has it's own personality. I'm getting ready to design a
PC based bed-of-nails test fixture for a 9" x 11" board assembly,
so I expect some interesting surprises along that road too.

Good luck!

Matt Pobursky
Maximum Performance Systems

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'[PIC]: Any programmer good for ICSP'
2002\05\18@121421 by Arkady Skorokhod

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Hello,

May I add some questions here?

>The idea is that
> you avoid powering up the part until you're ready to program it; you
> have to raise both simultaneously or nearly so, so that the program on
> the chip doesn't start running before you get it into programming mode.

From Microchip's PIC12C5XX Eprom Memory Programming Specification
(DS30557D p.5):
"The MCLR pin should be raised from Vil to Vih within 9 ms of Vdd rise".

From Microchip's PIC12C67X ICSP Programming Specification
(DS40175C p.4):
"The MCLR pin must be raised from Vil to Vih before Vdd is applied".

1. Is it really important to use these different strategies for different
parts?
Isn't it always possible to apply the Vpp first and then apply the Vdd?
Say, in case of an in-circuit programming, apply the Vpp and then
switch on the target device. Is it safe to have Vpp ON and Vdd OFF for a
"long" time?

> (Unless you have disabled the power-on reset timer, you have 72
> milliseconds before the code starts to run.)

2. On the other hand, isn't 72ms quite a long time to not bother about these
Vpp BEFORE Vdd or AFTER?

Thanks,

Arkady

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2002\05\18@132219 by Mark J. Dulcey

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Arkady Skorokhod wrote:
{Quote hidden}

My point was that most of the simple programmers don't control Vdd at
all; they apply power to the chip as soon as you insert it or power up
the programmer. This may not be within the Microchip specs, but it works
fine on most of the flash memory parts. But it doesn't work so well on
parts with internal oscillators; there, it's actually important to
control Vdd.

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