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'[PICLIST] FW: [OT] RE: Tragedy'
2001\09\13@075636 by Justin Fielding

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lol, you can think what you want.  Im not saying that I dislike Americans
but I am pointing out that America as a nation don't have a right to do some
of the things they do.  I am also pointing out that allot of people do not
like America because of these things.  I think that saying these people envy
Americas wealth and freedom is not 100% true, lots of Arabs are extremely
rich and most of those who are not do not see material wealth as important.

I am not Anti-American, Im not glad of what happened, Im not stirring people
up.  Im just saying that you have to step back and look at the WHOLE
picture, not just the events in New York.  You have to try and understand
why it was done, not just get yourself raged up strike out in anger.

"I'm going to attempt to contact your employer to pass on to them some of
your emails", well thats real mature.  I take it you would be trying to have
me persecuted for my views, that's a good example of democracy and freedom
now isn't it!  Why do you think they would want to know?  Do you understand
that all email in the company passes through a sweeper and is monitored
anyway?

I think there are others on the list who would agree that you need to try
and see issues from every point of view or any actions taken will end up
causing more problems.  Blind attacks on people or nations suspected would
create another generation of fanatics and greater reason for them to want to
strike out at the west.

Maybe you should think about things too?

Justin.

BTW how do I unsubscribe from the off-topic posts?  I want to subscribe only
to [PIC] posts as it seems people only want to hear certain things within
off-topic posts and if I have upset lots of people here (of which I doubt)
then I will give up trying to reason and just get on with projects.


{Original Message removed}

2001\09\13@114947 by dale

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> lol, you can think what you want.  Im not saying that I dislike Americans

We couldn't tell, from all the anti-American rhetoric you've been posting for the past few days.  I know *I* certainly got the impression you dislike Americans, and I'm pretty thick skinned.  perhaps you just don't communicate well.

> but I am pointing out that America as a nation don't have a right to do some
> of the things they do.  I am also pointing out that allot of people do not
> like America because of these things.  I think that saying these people envy
> Americas wealth and freedom is not 100% true, lots of Arabs are extremely
> rich and most of those who are not do not see material wealth as important.

I think you would be hard pressed to find a rich Arab who would not think material wealth is important.  If they didn't, they wouldn't be rich - they didn't get that way from living a simple life of prayer and meditation, you know.

And what exactly would you say America doesn't "have a right" to do?  Protect its own interests?  Invest money in its own businesses, and those in other countries?  Send millions of tons of food to impoverished regions?  Loan money by the billions to other countries, knowing it will never be repaid?  Send missionaries, doctors, engineers and laborers to third world countries?  Try to stem the flow of cocaine from Afghanistan and Central America?  How much of that sort of thing does Britain do, I wonder?

> I am not Anti-American, Im not glad of what happened, Im not stirring people
> up.  Im just saying that you have to step back and look at the WHOLE
> picture, not just the events in New York.  You have to try and understand
> why it was done, not just get yourself raged up strike out in anger.

When someone flies loaded airliners into commercial buildings full of civilians, I don't particularly *CARE* why it was done.  The "whole picture" is that a bunch of crazy-assed terrorists just committed the largest single act of cowardly mass murder we've seen on US soil.  Striking out is anger is the apropriate response.

> I think there are others on the list who would agree that you need to try
> and see issues from every point of view or any actions taken will end up
> causing more problems.  Blind attacks on people or nations suspected would
> create another generation of fanatics and greater reason for them to want to
> strike out at the west.

I don't think many people in the US is really interested in "blind attacks" anywhere.  We want to find those responsible -- which means those who did it, planned it, financed it, enabled it to happen by providing shelter, materials, money, arms, etc -- and make sure they pay the price.  Our goal is to make it obvious that the price for this kind of sneak terrorist attack is so incredibly high that no one will want to try anything of the sort again, ever.  Hopefully this will also reduce the number of terrorist attacks on other countries...  once again, the US carrying the water for the rest of the world that you claim hates us so much.

> BTW how do I unsubscribe from the off-topic posts?  I want to subscribe only
> to [PIC] posts as it seems people only want to hear certain things within
> off-topic posts and if I have upset lots of people here (of which I doubt)
> then I will give up trying to reason and just get on with projects.

Send mail to spam_OUTlistservTakeThisOuTspammitvma.mit.edu with SET PICLIST TOPICS: -[OT] in the body of the message.  If you'd take the time to read the FAQ on teh website you'd have found this pretty quickly.

Dale
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On my desk I have a workstation...

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2001\09\13@115432 by Peter L. Berghold

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At 12:49 PM 9/13/2001 +0100, Justin Fielding wrote:
>  Blind attacks on people or nations suspected would
>create another generation of fanatics and greater reason for them to want to
>strike out at the west.
>

Justin,

I don't think that any reasonable person wants to engage in what you refer
to as "blind attacks." As a veteran I have seen first hand the results of
blind action.

However: Nothing the United States has done deserves what happened 9/11/01.

In fact: It is the US that the whole world, free or not, seems to turn to
when they are in trouble. It is the US that everyone expects to be a leader
when all hell breaks loose. I could go on and on but I won't because I
think I am wasting bandwidth even telling you this.

Then when the US takes a leadership stance on an issue, the parties who are
on the opposite side of the table from that issue condemn the US for being
bullies, the great satan, or whatever. It is pure bullshit.


Why is it then, if everybody hates the US there are so many people trying
to become citizens of this country?

No, the folks that hate the US are the ones who have an agenda that is in
conflict with the ideals of liberty and freedom.

Trust me in this Justin: I have been overseas. I have seen things from an
international perspective.  I have seen third world countries accept our
help in one hand and try to knife us in the back with the other.

I won't try and say we the US have been perfect little altar boys on the
international front. Our leaders and descision makers are human and
flawed.  The nice thing about our political system is that at least if we
get a bad decision maker in office they are going to eventually be taken
out of office.   How long has Sodamn Insane been in power? Or Quadaffy
Duck? Now there is a pair of good leaders for you...


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Peter L. Berghold                        PeterspamKILLspamBerghold.Net
"Those who fail to learn from history are condemned to repeat it."

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