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'[PICLIST] FCC EMI testing rules?'
2001\05\11@161357 by Stephen B Webb

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I am thinking about producing a product and selling it in quantity to the
public.

There isn't much to it at all:
Batteries (AAA alkaline)
pic micro,
infrared transceiver,
a few pushbuttons,
a power switch


So, the question at hand is:

Where can I find out what type of testing / compliance certification, etc.
is necessary to sell this to the general public in the U.S.?

Any web-based resources for this?

Thanks

-Steve

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2001\05\11@163950 by David VanHorn

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>
>Where can I find out what type of testing / compliance certification, etc.
>is necessary to sell this to the general public in the U.S.?
>
>Any web-based resources for this?


FCC Rules Online at http://hallikainen.com/FccRules


The short version is that if it uses a clock over 9kHz, it has to be tested.
You can self-certify, but that's not a good choice if there's problems.
Best to get a test lab to scan it. For such a simple device, 1/2 day should
cover it.

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2001\05\11@164429 by Gordon Varney (personal)

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FCC part 15, Intentional and non intentional radiators. You can buy the full
copy from the U.S. printing office or there are a few web site that have
copies of the part that you need.

Good Luck

Gordon Varney


{Quote hidden}

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2001\05\11@180714 by michael brown

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> FCC part 15, Intentional and non intentional radiators. You can buy the
full
> copy from the U.S. printing office or there are a few web site that have
> copies of the part that you need.
>
  Part 18 if industrial, scientific, or medical.

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'[PICLIST] FCC EMI testing rules? (and OTHERS?)'
2001\05\11@184328 by Dale Botkin

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I've read the FCC stuff...  what other testing is required by law in the
US?  UL? Anything other than FCC?  I've been wondering.

Dale

On Fri, 11 May 2001, David VanHorn wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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'[PICLIST] : [EE]: FCC EMI testing rules? has no to'
2001\05\11@192334 by Stephen B Webb

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[repost w/ topic tag]

I am planning on developing a small device for sale to the public.  It is
very simple:

2 AAA (alkaline) batteries
PIC 12 series micro (internal oscillator)
IrDA compliant IR transceiver
Power switch
A few pushbuttons

and that's about it.

So, I am trying to find information (web-based is great) regarding
testing/certification requirements for this device.

I have looked at http://www.fcc.org a bit, and I had trouble getting to "the meat
of it"

I intend to convince myself that it will pass all certification tests, and
then take it to a lab and pay to have the tests run.


Does anyone out there see potential problems with such a simple circuit?
Does the fact that it emits IR make it harder/different to certify?
Does the fact that it uses a (presumably certified) IRDA transceiver help?
Any ballpark figures on the certification cost?  1k? 10k? 100k?

-Steve

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'[PICLIST] FCC EMI testing rules? (and OTHERS?)'
2001\05\11@194649 by David VanHorn

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At 05:44 PM 5/11/01 -0500, Dale Botkin wrote:
>I've read the FCC stuff...  what other testing is required by law in the
>US?  UL? Anything other than FCC?  I've been wondering.

Depends on what you're doing.  UL is one notable, and there's part 68 for
phone-connected devices.

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'[PICLIST] : [EE]: FCC EMI testing rules? has no to'
2001\05\11@194857 by David VanHorn
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>
>Does anyone out there see potential problems with such a simple circuit?

The PIC is obviously your "hot spot", Standard precautions, see my web page.


>Does the fact that it emits IR make it harder/different to certify?

No

>Does the fact that it uses a (presumably certified) IRDA transceiver help?

No

>Any ballpark figures on the certification cost?  1k? 10k? 100k?

$2k per day is what I'm used to paying, from a lab in Chicago.

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'[PICLIST] FCC EMI testing rules? (and OTHERS?)'
2001\05\11@211125 by Dale Botkin

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On Fri, 11 May 2001, David VanHorn wrote:

> At 05:44 PM 5/11/01 -0500, Dale Botkin wrote:
> >I've read the FCC stuff...  what other testing is required by law in the
> >US?  UL? Anything other than FCC?  I've been wondering.
>
> Depends on what you're doing.  UL is one notable, and there's part 68 for
> phone-connected devices.

Where can one find this out?  I've always wondered whether (for example)
UL certification is a "MUST" for legal reasons or a "SHOULD" for
marketing/safety/liability reasons.  The FCC stuff is, of course, a MUST,
but I don't know where else to look.  Of course I suppose there is a
specific breed of attorney that could tell me this for a substantial fee.

Dale
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2001\05\11@213451 by David VanHorn

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At 08:12 PM 5/11/01 -0500, Dale Botkin wrote:
>On Fri, 11 May 2001, David VanHorn wrote:
>
> > At 05:44 PM 5/11/01 -0500, Dale Botkin wrote:
> > >I've read the FCC stuff...  what other testing is required by law in the
> > >US?  UL? Anything other than FCC?  I've been wondering.
> >
> > Depends on what you're doing.  UL is one notable, and there's part 68 for
> > phone-connected devices.
>
>Where can one find this out?  I've always wondered whether (for example)
>UL certification is a "MUST" for legal reasons or a "SHOULD" for
>marketing/safety/liability reasons.  The FCC stuff is, of course, a MUST,
>but I don't know where else to look.  Of course I suppose there is a
>specific breed of attorney that could tell me this for a substantial fee.

Your customers, or your insurers, will drive you to UL.
AFAIK, It's not legally required, but I'm not current in that area.
You're right though, there's a million federal regulations that you are
apparently supposed to have read and memorized in school... Ignorance is no
excuse as they say.

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2001\05\12@022422 by Nigel Goodwin

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In message <4.3.2.7.2.20010511184531.0241a450EraseMEspam.....mail.cedar.net>, David
VanHorn <EraseMEdvanhornspamCEDAR.NET> writes
>At 05:44 PM 5/11/01 -0500, Dale Botkin wrote:
>>I've read the FCC stuff...  what other testing is required by law in the
>>US?  UL? Anything other than FCC?  I've been wondering.
>
>Depends on what you're doing.  UL is one notable, and there's part 68 for
>phone-connected devices.

My boss was recently on a visit in the far east, the factories out there
will put any label you want on the products with no testing whatsoever!.

There's a 'newish' European mark CE, which is to do with the amount of
interference a unit generates, and how susceptible to interference it
is. This sort of testing is extremely difficult, and there doesn't
appear to be any standard tests for doing so.
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2001\05\12@023106 by Harold M Hallikainen

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       It may be exempt since it's battery operated. See
www.hallikainen.com/cgi-bin/section.pl?section=15.103&SearchString
=(h)

Harold

On Fri, 11 May 2001 16:13:37 -0400 Stephen B Webb <RemoveMEsbwebb0spam_OUTspamKILLspamSAC.UKY.EDU>
writes:
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2001\05\12@023127 by Harold M Hallikainen

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       For a little more on safety testing, see
http://www.osha-slc.gov/dts/otpca/nrtl/faq_nrtl.html for info on
Nationally Recognized Testing Labs and what products OSHA requires
testing on.

Harold

On Fri, 11 May 2001 20:12:23 -0500 Dale Botkin <EraseMEdalespamspamspamBeGoneBOTKIN.ORG> writes:
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2001\05\12@024231 by Harold M Hallikainen

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On Sat, 12 May 2001 07:20:56 +0100 Nigel Goodwin <nigelgSTOPspamspamspam_OUTLPILSLEY.CO.UK>
writes:
{Quote hidden}

       There are a ton (metric ton, of course) of European standards (and I'm
sure some on the list deal with them every day). They are often broken
into product categories, then deal with EMC (both emissions and
susceptibility) and safety as a separate standard in each product
category.
       It's my understanding that you "self certify" compliance (and apply the
CE mark). The manual on the product includes a Declaration of Conformity
that lists all the standards the product complies with.  A DOC of one of
our products appears below. You must also have a Technical File that
shows the design and the test results that were used in determining
conformity with the standards. The importer (who is bringing the product
into the European Community) is to present the technical file to a
government representative that asks for it.
       We ran this stuff through a lab. With several products we were out
$30,000 or so by the time we were done. I was not really satisfied with
the lab. They were unaware of some of the appropriate standards, etc. A
great resource for this stuff is news:sci.engr.electrical.compliance

Harold




11 - Declaration of Conformity

       We, Dove Lighting Systems, Inc. Of 3563 Sueldo Street,
Suite E, San Luis Obispo, CA 93401, USA, declare that Theatrical
Light Dimmer model numbers DM406 and DM410, in accordance
with the following Directives:

(       73/23/EEC - The Low Voltage Directive and its amending
directives

(       89/336/EEC - The Electromagnetic Compatibility Direc-
tive and its amending directives



Have been designed and manufactured to the following specifica-
tions:

(       EN 50081-1 (1992) Electromagnetic compatibility - Ge-
neric Emission Standard - Part 1: Residential, commercial, and
light industry.

(       EN 55022 Class A Radiated Emissions

(       EN 55022 Class A Conducted Emissions

(       FCC Part 15 Subpart B (1998) Electromagnetic compatibil-
ity - Unintentional radiators for nonresidential use.

(       Section 15.109(b) Class A Radiated Emissions

(       Section 15.107(b) Class A Conducted Emissions

(       EN 60335-1 Safety Household Appliances

(       UL 508A, 1996, First Edition - Safety for Industrial Con-
trol Equipment

(       CAN/CSA (C22.2 No. 14-95) Industrial Control Equip-
ment







Signed by ___________________________

Gary Dove, President, Dove Lighting Systems, San Luis Obispo,
CA 93401 USA

27 December 2000


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2001\05\12@070532 by David VanHorn

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At 11:00 PM 5/11/01 -0700, Harold M Hallikainen wrote:
>         It may be exempt since it's battery operated. See
>www.hallikainen.com/cgi-bin/section.pl?section=15.103&SearchString
>=(h)

Could be,  by "generated" do they mean fundamental osc, or radiated harmonic?

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2001\05\12@121602 by mike

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On Fri, 11 May 2001 15:38:01 -0500, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

..but for a product like this, assuming the PIC is running at 4MHz or
less, you would have to try really really hard to  make the layout so
bad that it  emits noise anywhere near the limits in most EMC
standards. I would have no hesitation in self-certifying such a
product without any testing. Just make sure you have good supply
decoupling , layout and grounding.
A few years ago I was involved in EMC testing some simple 4MHz PIC
based products - we couldn't even detect emissions, let alone measure
them.
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2001\05\12@145959 by Harold M Hallikainen

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On Sat, 12 May 2001 06:03:34 -0500 David VanHorn <EraseMEdvanhornspamEraseMECEDAR.NET>
writes:
> At 11:00 PM 5/11/01 -0700, Harold M Hallikainen wrote:
> >         It may be exempt since it's battery operated. See
>
>www.hallikainen.com/cgi-bin/section.pl?section=15.103&SearchStrin
g=(h)
>
> Could be,  by "generated" do they mean fundamental osc, or radiated
> harmonic?
>

       Since harmonics "go forever", I believe they mean the fundamental clock
frequency. If, however, you have a clock multiplier in the circuit (like
an 18c452), it would be the multiplied clock. I did a battery operated
handheld machine for teaching Braille that meets the exemption. It uses
the 18c252 with a relatively low speed RC oscillator, something like 300
kHz. I went to the 18c252 to get the large ROM space for the Braille
dictionary.

Harold




FCC Rules Online at http://hallikainen.com/FccRules
Lighting control for theatre and television at http://www.dovesystems.com

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2001\05\12@185200 by David VanHorn

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>
>         Since harmonics "go forever", I believe they mean the fundamental
> clock
>frequency. If, however, you have a clock multiplier in the circuit (like
>an 18c452), it would be the multiplied clock. I did a battery operated
>handheld machine for teaching Braille that meets the exemption. It uses
>the 18c252 with a relatively low speed RC oscillator, something like 300
>kHz. I went to the 18c252 to get the large ROM space for the Braille
>dictionary.

I hear you, I just wish they would be more specific.
They could have given examples such as you did, to make it clear.


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2001\05\13@172624 by Peter L. Peres

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Mike Harrison <@spam@mike@spam@spamspam_OUTWHITEWING.CO.UK> wrote:
> A few years ago I was involved in EMC testing some simple 4MHz PIC
> based products - we couldn't even detect emissions, let alone measure
> them.

Crystal based ? I don't think so. Internal RC clock is more likely, maybe
even external RC clock. The external RC clock has the dubious advantage
that it has so much jitter that a digital frequency spectrum analyzer will
miss it entirely if set to a narrow enough window ;-). I guess this
applies to any RC oscillator in the MHz range. The internal RC clock is
undetectable even if applying capacitive coupling probes directly to the
plastic chip body (12C508 DIP/DIL plastic, <1mVpk-pk coupled into
10Meg+5pF). I like that ;-).

Has anyone done a battery powered PIC based product that deliberately runs
on RC clock under 9kHz to avoid FCC problems ? Are there any other
available micros in the same class (8 bit low power CMOS, inexpensive OTP
or FLASH, very low clock possible, full static operation) ?

Peter

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2001\05\14@043446 by Roman Black

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Peter L. Peres wrote:

> Has anyone done a battery powered PIC based product that deliberately runs
> on RC clock under 9kHz to avoid FCC problems ? Are there any other
> available micros in the same class (8 bit low power CMOS, inexpensive OTP
> or FLASH, very low clock possible, full static operation) ?


When I was testing dual clock speeds (external
RC osc) I ran the PIC happily at 29Hz clock,
(which is 7.5Hz instructions). I did notice that
it would run reliably drawing only 60uA total
current with the right RC choice, at speeds under
10kHz, and that was switching outputs and stuff.

I still haven't found an app to use this low-power
running feature though, but it might have some
advantages over sleep mode. Combined WITH sleep
mode a low speed mode might be good for some
apps.
-Roman

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