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'[PIC]: Electronic Warfare'
2002\05\18@092625 by Tal Bejerano - AMC

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Hi 2 All

I need urgent help with a problem I have (and maybe other ppl have) I live
next to a neighbor that play music very loud and of course in the rest hours
and on nights hours.

well, the easy way is to kill him but as I know no fast internet in
jail...so I give up the idea. :-)

I try all the legally methods (talk with him, police etc..) but no cure..,

I want to fight the problem with electronic, can I interfere his cd player
or AF circuit or any other circuits with a transmitter? any other
transmitter?

I need ideas guys! cause I go crazy here...

Regards

Tal Bejerano
AMC - ISRAEL

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'[PIC]: Electronic Warfare - Solution'
2002\05\18@104738 by Ed Edmondson

picon face
Build a directional EMP generator and kill all his electronic items in his
house (Apt or whatever). Each time he replaces the offending equipment hit
his abode with another EMP. Unless he is extremely rich, he will not have the
funds to replace this equipment more than once or twice.

The best news of all is that this directional EMP is virtually untraceable
since you have to be looking for it.

Dr. Ed Edmondson, Ph.D.,
1410 West 11th Street
Apt. 6
Alamosa, Colorado 81101-3375
Phone: 719-587-0130
Fax: 719-589-4970
E-mail: spam_OUTee0035jrTakeThisOuTspamaol.com

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2002\05\18@112830 by Joe Farr

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Get a normal 27MHz AM CB radio and remove the final filter stages (add
an RF amp/burner for added punch)  At short range, their mean, dirty and
will interfere with just about anything. That's why they sell RFI
filters for victims.....


{Original Message removed}

2002\05\18@112844 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
On Sat, 18 May 2002, Ed Edmondson wrote:

>Build a directional EMP generator and kill all his electronic items in his
>house (Apt or whatever). Each time he replaces the offending equipment hit
>his abode with another EMP. Unless he is extremely rich, he will not have the
>funds to replace this equipment more than once or twice.
>
>The best news of all is that this directional EMP is virtually untraceable
>since you have to be looking for it.

Yes, if you miss the bright light and the loud boom and the half dozen
echos from the boom then you can't for the life of you tell where it came
from. ;-)

Also good luck with the 'directional' part since the inverse square law
works for the neighbor and your own equipment is just about going to be
shot before his.

FYI my amplified computer speakers detect any cell phone within 2 meters
of range and emit a tick-tick sound while the phone is in use. It can only
be heard when I am not playing anything through the speakers though. A
good HiFi will not have this problem however a high speed hand drill run
without a load and with the filter caps removed might do the annoy-him
trick.

Our neighbors at work are in the diamod business and they use some very
high rpm polishing motors that make noise bars up into far UHF
(I once measured -10dBm..-20dBm at 600MHz and 3..5 meters through walls
with a small probe antenna).

hope this helps,

Peter

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2002\05\18@114023 by Pic Dude

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Aim giant speakers in his direction and play Barbara Streisand.  This of
course, I learned from "South Park".
:-)




{Original Message removed}

2002\05\18@150633 by Jim

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face
   "That's why they sell RFI filters for victims....."


So-called "RFI filters" are totally ineffective when the
emission from a 'dirty' radio falls directly on F_sub_o
of another 'service' ...

"RFI filters" will prevent overload of a receiver's so-called
"Front end" (RF amplifier and mixer stages) caused by srrong,
out-of-band signals however ...

'Better ideas' of dealing with a noisy neighbor run into the
realm of FM band "test transmitters", line impulse generators
and wide-band line "hash generators" and the like ... some
amount of noise is bound to make it's way into his "Hi-Fi"
gear from the 50/60 Hz power line at some point ...

Either that or get your amatuer radio license in your
country then run the 'legal limit' on the HF bands
through Six Meters ... I have seen cases where running
"a full gallon" (here in the US 1 KW) has affected the
amplifier in an active sub-woofer as far as a block
away (a CW operator's "fist" late at night was pounding
through a friend's stereo this way!) ...

Jim



----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Farr" <.....joe.farrKILLspamspam@spam@KCSL.UK.COM>
To: <PICLISTspamKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2002 10:26 AM
Subject: Re: Electronic Warfare


> Get a normal 27MHz AM CB radio and remove the final filter stages (add
> an RF amp/burner for added punch)  At short range, their mean, dirty and
> will interfere with just about anything. That's why they sell RFI
> filters for victims.....
>
>
> {Original Message removed}

2002\05\18@174041 by Tal Dayan

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face
Hi Tal,

My 2c is that this will result in a cycles of retaliation
and escalation and it will not get you to the peace of
mind you are looking for.

Sorry that I cannot suggest any solution.

Tal Dayan



> {Original Message removed}

2002\05\18@204731 by Dale Botkin

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Of course, you will probably kill all of your own electronice devices
several time during testing; you may also disable everything in some
unintended victims' apartments as well, but hey - if you're going to make
an omelette you have to break a few eggs, right?

Of course, you could also find a new place, or build an active noise
cancelling system.  It won't be as cool as something really destructive,
though.  Sheesh.

Want a true stealth-geek solution?  If you can get line of sight to his
equipment through a window or somewhere, a nice little infrared output
could auto-tune his radio to your favorite station, crank the volume down,
or turn everyhhing off if the noise reached a certain decibel level.

Dale
--
"Curiosity is the very basis of education and if you tell me that
curiosity killed the cat, I say only the cat died nobly."
         - Arnold Edinborough


On Sat, 18 May 2002, Ed Edmondson wrote:

> Build a directional EMP generator and kill all his electronic items in his
<snip...>

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2002\05\18@204940 by Dale Botkin

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On Sat, 18 May 2002, Pic Dude wrote:

> Aim giant speakers in his direction and play Barbara Streisand.  This of
> course, I learned from "South Park".
> :-)

Hey, he said he didn't like the music, he didn't say he wanted to
do any massive permanent damage!  8-)

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2002\05\19@003505 by T.C. Phelps

picon face
Ah, the art of getting even. As Elvira once said,
"Revenge is better than Christmas."

> Aim giant speakers in his direction and play Barbara

> Streisand.  This of course, I learned from "South
> Park". :-)

A Yoko Ono box set was released within the past couple
years or so. That would also be a good choice. :)

Or how about borrowing someone's nice big subwoofer?
Put it right against the wall to his apartment, and
crank Barry White, Chemical Brothers, or some nice
bassy tunes. The vibrations will probably cause lots
of havoc with anything he's got hanging on his wall in
addition to being a huge nuisance. If he talks to YOU
about it, say you're sorry, just got a new subwoofer
and you got carried away etc... then when he is a jerk
and plays loud music play your "seismic" weapon and if
he comes and talks to you say you're sorry again but
his music was wafting through and you can't stand
<whatever he's playing> and you had to put your own
stereo on. Do that enough times and maybe he'll get
the hint.


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

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2002\05\19@045630 by Roman Black

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Dale Botkin wrote:
>
> Of course, you will probably kill all of your own electronice devices
> several time during testing; you may also disable everything in some
> unintended victims' apartments as well, but hey - if you're going to make
> an omelette you have to break a few eggs, right?


My aren't we all very destructive today? ;o)
Here's a solution both amusing and illegal from
an ex-repairer of appliances;

Sneak into his house and put a hefty 1 ohm resistor
inside each speaker box in PARALLEL with the speaker
cone. His amp will be much queiter but still working
on low volume levels. However, each time he cranks
it up to get the neighbour-annoying sound levels he
will cook his amplifier and either have to get it
repaired or buy a new amp. It might be a good idea to
check if his amp has speaker fuses, and replace them
with automotive 20 amp ones.

The really sneaky thing is that he probably won't
work out that the problem is in the speakers, as they
appear to work normally, and he will just keep blowing
amps or probably train himself to listen to music
much quieter from now on... ;o)

And this IS a joke by the way. :o)
-Roman

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2002\05\19@135121 by John

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Hello Tal & PIC.ers,

I had the same problem back in the '70s when I lived in a mining town
`singles' hostel.
There were a lot of guys who would come home, off shift at ungodly
hours & start fatigue testing the roof with their music machines.

Do you have ELCBs (Earth Leakage Circuit Breakers) where you are?
Sometimes these are called RCDs (Residual Current Detectors)
or otherwise. At least they isolate the mains at the incoming distr.
board when an earth current above a limit is seen - usually 30mA.
If you can arrange to short the neutral line to the earth line in the
disrupter's premises, the ELCB trips out & is not resettable until
the short is removed.

Does this give you a clue?
The short is easy, just wire it into a blank appliance plug.
Plug IN  = black quiet building.
Plug OUT = power resettable.

If your friend's HI-FI is supplied from his private board...mmm...
things get trickier. Ideas.. anyone?
RF switched short-cct a la sliding gate remote button etc.,,


       best regards & hamba gahle (Zulu, go quitely)
               John


>Date:    Sat, 18 May 2002 16:21:31 +0200
>From:    Tal Bejerano - AMC <.....kooterKILLspamspam.....ZAHAV.NET.IL>
>Subject: [PIC]: Electronic Warfare
>
>Hi 2 All
>
>I need urgent help with a problem I have (and maybe other ppl have) I live
>next to a neighbor that play music very loud and of course in the rest
hours

>Regards
>
>Tal Bejerano
>AMC - ISRAEL
>


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products and services.

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2002\05\19@135320 by Larry Williams
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Find a surplus radar, point it at the offending device, turn radar on
without rotation of antenna. The resulting beeping will cause him to
turn it off in disgust. While in electronics school, the radar a couple
of blocks away killed everything, audio to television.

Tal Bejerano - AMC wrote:
>
> Hi 2 All
>
> I need urgent help with a problem I have (and maybe other ppl have) I

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2002\05\19@145228 by michael brown

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<snip>
> I want to fight the problem with electronic, can I interfere his cd player
> or AF circuit or any other circuits with a transmitter? any other
> transmitter?
>
> I need ideas guys! cause I go crazy here...
>
> Regards
>
> Tal Bejerano
> AMC - ISRAEL

I favor the Amateur Radio approach myself.  There are many advantages to
this method, a few have already been mentioned by another lister.  In the US
having an amateur license is like having a federal license to kill (or
otherwise interfere with) electronic equipment (outside of medical devices
of course).  Plus you have the advantage of being able to use incredible
amounts of power AND high-gain antennas.  ;-)))))  You have a wide choice of
bands, so it's fairly easy to find one that will do the job.  Many consumer
devices have little or no protection from RFI.  ;-)

In the US, I would advise against using CB and/or anything that might
interfere with an amateur radio repeater as the FCC has been quite busy that
past few years collecting large amounts of money from QRM'rs.  However, with
an amateur license you can use frequencies ranging from just below 2Mhz up
thru microwaves and large amounts of power legally.

I have found that VHF (2 mtr) to be fairly effective against most
audio/video equipment.  If FM doesn't get in, then SSB usually will.  ;-D  I
had a Sony 27" TV that would totally blank out if a hand held 2mtr radio was
within about 10' of it.  50 watts and a 10db gain antenna will push the
range out to hundreds of feet.  BTW, the TV was hooked to cable, not an
outdoor antenna.  Most consumer component audio equipment is hooked together
using resonant, unshielded patch cords.  ;-)  Hell, nowadays there are allot
of cars that can't handle a 50 watt VHF transmitter around their "delicate"
electronics.

Yes Part 15 is a godsend to radio amateurs.  ;-D  I only wish that I could
see the look on peoples faces when _they_ "find out how it works".  ;-D  It
must be very disconcerting to find out that _they_ could be forced to stop
using _their_ consumer equipment if it is shown to cause interference to a
federally licensed radio service.  ;-D  I know one thing, it makes them much
more cooperative in these matters when they know that you are under no
obligation to help them with _their_ RFI problem.

PIC Related Matter:

You could use one to automatically turn on your equipment when it "hears"
the loud stereo.  Automatic/unattended operations are fully endorsed by the
FCC.  ;-D  Just be sure to ID when transmitting.  For a "legitimate" use of
this, search google for APRS.

michael brown (n5qmg, glad I don't live in an apartment any more)

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2002\05\19@152405 by Dale Botkin

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There's an even more elegant solution if you're lookig for a seismic event
generator.  I saw a catalog listing "Bass Shakers", which are apparently a
low-frequency, high-mass device that you bolt to the floor joists from
below to turn your floor or furniture into a giant subwoofer.  I'm sure
they would work just as well bolted to a wall stud.

Dale
--
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curiosity killed the cat, I say only the cat died nobly."
         - Arnold Edinborough


On Sat, 18 May 2002, T.C. Phelps wrote:

> Or how about borrowing someone's nice big subwoofer?

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2002\05\19@173007 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
On Sat, 18 May 2002, Dale Botkin wrote:

>Of course, you will probably kill all of your own electronice devices
>several time during testing; you may also disable everything in some
>unintended victims' apartments as well, but hey - if you're going to make
>an omelette you have to break a few eggs, right?
>
>Of course, you could also find a new place, or build an active noise
>cancelling system.  It won't be as cool as something really destructive,
>though.  Sheesh.
>
>Want a true stealth-geek solution?  If you can get line of sight to his
>equipment through a window or somewhere, a nice little infrared output
>could auto-tune his radio to your favorite station, crank the volume down,
>or turn everyhhing off if the noise reached a certain decibel level.

hehe. good idea. How about looking for a spot to put a small mirror to
bounce your beam off. Dorks usually are fooled by mirrors. I.e. if you
can't see what you're looking for then it ain't there. Coating the mirror
with something that lets through IR only would be a next step so he really
can't tell it's a mirror. Don't fall out of a window while trying this
please.

Peter

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2002\05\20@051542 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>Or how about borrowing someone's nice big subwoofer?
>Put it right against the wall to his apartment, and
>crank Barry White, Chemical Brothers, or some nice
>bassy tunes. The vibrations will probably cause lots
>of havoc with anything he's got hanging on his wall in
>addition to being a huge nuisance. If he talks to YOU
>about it, say you're sorry, just got a new subwoofer
>and you got carried away etc... then when he is a jerk
>and plays loud music play your "seismic" weapon and if
>he comes and talks to you say you're sorry again but
>his music was wafting through and you can't stand
><whatever he's playing> and you had to put your own
>stereo on. Do that enough times and maybe he'll get
>the hint.

I heard of someone who built himself a nice big woofer, and on testing it
found the resonant frequency a bit higher than he wished for. Reasoning that
the problem was the compliance of the speaker diaphragm support he figured
he would loosen it up by letting it run for a few hours at high power. Sets
of to work early in the morning leaving the speaker driven with considerable
number of watts at about 10Hz. Arrives home in the evening to find the
neighbours just about climbing the walls with madness at the continuous
sub-sonic high power levels.

It worked though, the resonant frequency dropped to the desired figure.

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2002\05\20@054714 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>I favor the Amateur Radio approach myself.  There
>are many advantages to this method, a few have
>already been mentioned by another lister.  In the US
>having an amateur license is like having a federal
>license to kill (or otherwise interfere with)
>electronic equipment (outside of medical devices
>of course).


Another advantage of this approach is to have an imaginary conversation with
"someone on the other end of the radio link". You then tell this imaginary
person that you have been kept awake by this clown playing loud music next
door, so you figured that as you are now awake you figured you may as well
fire up the rig and make some more DX contacts.

Course you use AM mode for all these transmissions so his amp demodulates it
into plain text in his speakers :)

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2002\05\20@060622 by Joris van den Heuvel

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Find out what brand his amplifier is, and use a pic to simulate the volume
down button on the remote control. Stick the IR transmitter (use a tiny one)
onto his window and contain yourself (from laughter).

If he doesn't have remote control, well... I tried!

Regards,
Joris.



PS who doesn't have remote anyway...




{Original Message removed}

2002\05\20@110327 by Cris Wilson

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At 04:21 PM 5/18/2002 +0200, you wrote:
>Hi 2 All
>
>I need urgent help with a problem I have (and maybe other ppl have) I live
>next to a neighbor that play music very loud and of course in the rest hours
>and on nights hours.
>
>well, the easy way is to kill him but as I know no fast internet in
>jail...so I give up the idea. :-)
>
>I try all the legally methods (talk with him, police etc..) but no cure..,
>
>I want to fight the problem with electronic, can I interfere his cd player
>or AF circuit or any other circuits with a transmitter? any other
>transmitter?
>
>I need ideas guys! cause I go crazy here...

A few years ago, I had the same problem in an apartment I lived in. My
solution was
to connect a remote control servo to the offenders main breaker box on the
outside
of the apartment.  Anytime the music got too loud, I could pick up the
remote control,
push up on it and his power was cut off. I'd wait a few seconds and then
push down on
the remote and it would turn his power back on.
After about 2 weeks he decided that his stereo was too powerful for the
cities power supply.

You will need on of the large sized servos, and sturdy rod to run between
the servo and the
breaker, and some epoxy to connect the rod to the breaker arm.
_____________________________________________________________
Cris Wilson
Information Resource Consultant
College of Architecture, Arts, and Humanities
Clemson University
KILLspamcrisKILLspamspamclemson.edu
To report problems email: RemoveMEaah_computersTakeThisOuTspamclemson.edu

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2002\05\20@115726 by Jinx

face picon face
> A Yoko Ono box set was released within the past couple
> years or so. That would also be a good choice. :)

Ooooh, now that's just plain vicious. They'd have to be
throwing garbage over the fence as well to deserve that

Then again, how about that solo album ex-Sex Pistol
Sid Viscous did. It's even more pitiful because he was
at least trying to stay in tune

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2002\05\20@140625 by T.C. Phelps

picon face
> Sets of to work early in the morning leaving the
> speaker driven with considerable number of watts at
> about 10Hz. Arrives home in the evening to find the
> neighbours just about climbing the walls with
> madness at the continuous sub-sonic high power
> levels.

Ha! That's hilarious. Not too surprising though, and
still preferable to putting Yoko Ono or Sid Vicious'
solo album on. :)

Got another subsonics story for you. I have an old
copy of Borland Turbo C++ 3, and if you look for
sound() in the help file it provides this little tale:


  True story: 7 Hz is the resonant
  frequency of a chicken's skull cavity.
  This was determined empirically in
  Australia, where a new factory
  generating 7-Hz tones was located too
  close to a chicken ranch: When the
  factory started up, all the chickens
  died.

Some Internet sources attribute it as an urban legend,
but it's amusing nonetheless. At any rate I suppose
listening to a subwoofer put out 10 Hz all day is like
living next to a factory!

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

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2002\05\20@141958 by Rex Byrns

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A buddy of mine was nearly kicked out of his dorm when we made a 3 ft Tesla
coil and mounted an antennae made up of circles (one inside the other with
small gaps alternating top and bottom)  I don't think there was any operable
TV's or radio's for several blocks.  The antennae was from a patent we found
call the Multi Wave Oscillator.  A guy named Lachowsky invented it.  It
creates harmonics of everything.

Of course the discharge into a ceiling light socket also killed a 4 ton  AC
compressor... bware of backfires.

{Original Message removed}

2002\05\20@145225 by Tal (Zapta)

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face
> Of course the discharge into a ceiling light socket also killed a
> 4 ton  AC
> compressor... bware of backfires.

Or pace makers ....

Tal

> {Original Message removed}

2002\05\20@152324 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
On Mon, 20 May 2002, T.C. Phelps wrote:

{Quote hidden}

There are places in shopping malls and factories and such where dodgy
acoustics cause the infrasound from the A/C ducts to sum. Standing there
is a very unnerving experience, especially for people who don't know what
is up. You get a free diaphragm massage (it is said that too much of this
will have people running for the loo). The pressure level on one I know is
high enough that it makes a sheet of paper held loosely between two hands
flap with several mm of amplitude. Normal hearing is affected (normal
sounds sound strangely modulated - probably infrasound overloading the
cochlea). No ducts are obvious anywhere near it.  It's just the focus of a
natural lens in the building.

Peter

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2002\05\20@153911 by Eoin Ross

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I car I used to own had a sunroof you could remove - when it was like that there was an oscillation at 40 - 60 kph where your hair would bounce and the radio sounded like in was being played underwater - most unnerving for passengers that hadn't experienced it.
<snip><quote>
There are places in shopping malls and factories and such where dodgy
acoustics cause the infra sound from the A/C ducts to sum. Standing there
is a very unnerving experience, especially for people who don't know what
is up. You get a free diaphragm massage (it is said that too much of this
will have people running for the loo). The pressure level on one I know is
high enough that it makes a sheet of paper held loosely between two hands
flap with several mm of amplitude. Normal hearing is affected (normal
sounds sound strangely modulated - probably infra sound overloading the
cochlea). No ducts are obvious anywhere near it.  It's just the focus of a
natural lens in the building.

Peter
</quote>

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2002\05\20@154737 by Pic Dude

flavicon
face
Wouldn't happen to be the same 1987-1988-style Acura
integra that that that to me would it?  The whole
car would resonate and got louder until I slowed down.
Adding the "clip-on" wind-deflector would eliminate
it though.



{Original Message removed}

2002\05\20@170151 by Andrew Hooper

flavicon
face
I have been partially following this item, and there are some
really sick and vindictive people out there :).

If these people are really getting on your nerves why not
build and IR or RF switch. In NZ the main power feed and
meter box is located outside the house :)
Hook up a big fat relay and turn their power on and off for
them :).
I did this manually some years back when the people next
door decided to have a party that lasted until 4AM, actually
it was a little nastier, I pulled out ALL the fuses and left them
in their mailbox.

Andrew

{Original Message removed}

2002\05\20@192342 by Mike Browne

flavicon
face
And you call the previous posters sick and vindictive. Good move though, too
bad it isn't like that here in the states, I can think of two neighbors I've
had that I would have done that to.

{Original Message removed}

2002\05\20@193749 by Michael Johnston

flavicon
face
Here in the US there are serveral retailers nation wide that sell linear
amps for cb raidos get you a cb rig and antenna and amp set it up and start
talking when the jerk is home. I cant tell you how many times over the years
i had this happen to me i be playing music and boom I hear "breaker One
Nine" it was my neighbor . He did stay around long because i think he was
turned into the fcc. Mike Johnston
{Original Message removed}

2002\05\20@194756 by Jim

flavicon
face
  "Good move though, too bad it isn't like that
   here in the states"

Pull the meter maybe?

Jim


----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Browne" <RemoveMEMBrowneEraseMEspamEraseMEBURSTEINLABS.COM>
To: <RemoveMEPICLISTspam_OUTspamKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 6:19 PM
Subject: Re: [OT]: Electronic Warfare


> And you call the previous posters sick and vindictive. Good move though,
too
> bad it isn't like that here in the states, I can think of two neighbors
I've
> had that I would have done that to.
>
> {Original Message removed}

2002\05\20@200530 by Pic Dude

flavicon
face
So at this point, a lot of workable options are available --
pain-field generators, audio annoyers, devices to mess with
the neighbor's audio, electricals, etc.  But what are the
laws like out there?  Here in the US, doing most of this
would get the "victim" in trouble, and I'm sure that's
something you want to avoid.  How about some feedback on
what the "limits" are?

Cheers,
-Neil.



{Original Message removed}

2002\05\20@203010 by Jeff DeMaagd

picon face
In the States I think people can be fined for disturbing the peace,
particularly within city or town limits.  That's what is often used for
breaking up roudy parties and stopping anything that is louder than what
statute allows.

Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: Jim <RemoveMEjvpollTakeThisOuTspamspamDALLAS.NET>


>    "Good move though, too bad it isn't like that
>     here in the states"
>
> Pull the meter maybe?

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2002\05\21@023949 by Andrei B.

picon face
--- Dale Botkin <RemoveMEdaleKILLspamspamBOTKIN.ORG> wrote:
> Of course, you could also find a new place, or build an active noise
> cancelling system.
The hard thing about such systems is to get them to work right, or you
get some even more annoying results.

I know of a system that is botha HiFi system and has this function that
works best for all noises inside the room where it is (also speaker
positioning is critical), but doesn't really work if noise source is
outside...

Those that build the intercom for hellis really know how to deal with
such noise levels...

A simple invert and add may not work much.

There's another noise cancelation solution which might be better
suited:
headphones with noise cancelation. They work much better with external
sources of noise, but they must be worn ... to work...

> Want a true stealth-geek solution?  If you can get line of sight to
> his
> equipment through a window or somewhere, a nice little infrared
> output
> could auto-tune his radio to your favorite station, crank the volume
> down,
> or turn everyhhing off if the noise reached a certain decibel level.

Since we are on the PIC list, here's a PIC solution:

build a PIC that receives IR signals, decodes them and sends them over
a  RF link. Do this battery powered, very small, maybe with a SMD
12c508.
Place it near a window to listen.
Build another one with RF transceiver that sends the signals to your PC
via serial port to analyze. See what kind of codes there are, etc, etc.

Search the net for IR remote control blocker circuits. (epanorama.net)
Build another PIC controlled device with a RF receiver and an IR
transmitter. Build the concepts of the blocker above into the
transmitter.
Have your serially connected PIC send the appropriate signals to remote
control the equipment and send jamming for a while after sending a
command so the real remote won't get through.

This is the high-tech version of the geek solution :)


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

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2002\05\21@025019 by tundra

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"Andrei B." wrote:
>
> --- Dale Botkin <spamBeGonedaleSTOPspamspamEraseMEBOTKIN.ORG> wrote:
> > Of course, you could also find a new place, or build an active noise
> > cancelling system.
> The hard thing about such systems is to get them to work right, or you
> get some even more annoying results.
<SNIP>

I've watched this thread with some amusement.  Here's my hi-tech/lo-tech
solution:

1) Get a good recording of "Who let the dogs out?"

2) Place your speakers in facing your rude neighbor's walls.
  Place baffling material in your flat so that no sound
  can be heard coming from your door. You may have to build
  acoustic covers for your speakers. Isolate the speakers
  from the floor - we don't want to bother anyone.

3) Build a PIC-based system to do the following:

       a) Randomly play the aforementioned song a maximum
          volume for say 3-30 minutes.

       b) Stop playing immediately on one of the following interrupts:
            - Your phone rings
            - A proximity sensor detects anyone near your door or when
              the door is opened.

4) Enable the system and go on holidays for a week.

I am *not* recommending you actually do this, because it will drive your
neighbor crazy, but it is an amusing little fantasy ...
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2002\05\21@123309 by Cris Wilson

flavicon
face
In theory, the "victim" would be in trouble.
In the case of the neighbor I had troubles with, I asked him first
several times to stop playing music that loud at all hours of night.
When that failed, I asked the police to talk to him about noise
ordinance violations. They did. He asked who called the problem in
and they had to tell him that I did it. My windshield was mysteriously
busted out during the night by my neighbor. But I couldn't prove it, so
the police wouldn't do anything about it. And he continued to play his
music loud. So I resorted to altering his main breaker box.

So what are the legal limits? According to the police officer that I talked
to, I "couldn't legally do anything to interfere with my neighbor's personal
property, body, or communication systems. Or at least [I] shouldn't get
caught doing it." ;-)

And I now know that if you want to report a neighbor to the police,
do it from a pay phone and don't give your name.







At 07:03 PM 5/20/2002 -0500, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>{Original Message removed}

'[PIC]: Electronic Warfare - Update'
2002\05\22@132934 by Tal Bejerano - AMC

flavicon
face
First, 10x 4 everybody that support my topic.
Secondly, I suspect my neighbor is a member in this list (or maybe move to
other place..) music as stopped after I post the topic. thanks god! now I
can read quietly!

in my deep despair I found this site. look.. inside some interesting
"weapons" :-)
http://home.golden.net/~kpwillia/

Enjoy!

Regards

Tal Bejerano
AMC - ISRAEL

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2002\05\24@141456 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
> There are places in shopping malls and factories and such where dodgy
> acoustics cause the infrasound from the A/C ducts to sum. Standing there


Used to live near a shunting yard.
Normally no problems.

In winter about ?4am they used to run up two diesel locos at once (maybe
more?) in an engine shed nearby. Presumably these were on governors set to
idle at the same speed. The multiple engines used to "beat" (possibly
resonating the building they were in) and produce a loud slow
woomp-a-woomp-a-woomp for about 15 minutes. Presumably they were warm after
that ?



       RM

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'[PIC]: Electronic Warfare - Solution'
2002\05\24@141539 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
This is a true story. Many years ago I had a friend with just this problem.
A neighbour in a unit separated only by a wall would play his sound system
very very loud in the early hours of the morning (eg 2am - 3am).

At that stage amongst my junk I had an RF Plastic Welder. 27 MHz ISM band.
Possibly several kilowatts output.

We placed the welder under the stairs against the internal common wall.
Taped a 27 MHz 1/4 wave whip on the wall.
Loaded the welder into the whip as best we could.

Left filaments on and with a switch in HT so you could operate instantly.

3am. Loud music. Bleary eyed friend stumbles down stairs and presses button.
Loud humming buzzing and other noises from next apartment. After a small
while the sound system was turned off. The problem stopped very shortly
after this but I'm not sure how much the welder had to do with it.

Interestingly, the affect on a TV in my friends apartment was relatively
minimal - distinct diagonal bars but picture still viewable.



       Russell McMahon

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2002\05\24@144309 by Lawrence Lile

flavicon
face
Russell,

I hope the statute of limitations has run out when the FCC finds out about
this!

;-)  Lawrence


{Original Message removed}

2002\05\24@151048 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
There is no end to infrasound tales. Most are myths but one I was involved
in was true. I was in a church with a friend who was playing the organ
(practising). I sat on the organ bench with him, on the left side, and I
casually pressed the two leftmost pedals down. For some seconds nothing
happened then I heard the stained glass in the nave windows begin to
'sing' and my friend pushed me off the bench... The church was empty, we
were kids, and he was the preacher's son and one of my best friends. The
sound that glass made was scary. I think that the beat frequency was some
0.5Hz or less. That organ was huge. I remember standing near the fan, it
was twice as tall as I was then. I think that with some experimenting we
could have brought the ceiling down too.

Peter

On Thu, 23 May 2002, Russell McMahon wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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2002\05\24@173016 by Sean H. Breheny

face picon face
I don't get what the beat freq has to do with this. A beat shouldn't be
able to excite a resonance at the beat freq, unless there are significant
nonlinear mixing effects going on.

Sean

At 10:46 PM 5/24/2002 +0300, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2002\05\25@010038 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
> I hope the statute of limitations has run out when the FCC finds out about
> this!


Even the mighty FCC does not reach this far (although it may have some
control over the US spy stations operating here at Tangimoana and Waihopu)
:-)


       RM


> > At that stage amongst my junk I had an RF Plastic Welder. 27 MHz ISM
band.
> > Possibly several kilowatts output.
> > We placed the welder under the stairs against the internal common wall.
> > Taped a 27 MHz 1/4 wave whip on the wall.
> > Loaded the welder into the whip as best we could.
> >
> > Left filaments on and with a switch in HT so you could operate
instantly.
> >
> > 3am. Loud music. Bleary eyed friend stumbles down stairs and presses
> button.

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2002\05\25@022532 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
On Fri, 24 May 2002, Sean H. Breheny wrote:

>I don't get what the beat freq has to do with this. A beat shouldn't be
>able to excite a resonance at the beat freq, unless there are significant
>nonlinear mixing effects going on.

I don't know either but windows usually don't close perfectly and have
some play, especially large tall church windows. Maybe this was the
'diode'. Anyway they took a few seconds to start 'singing'. I'm pretty
sure damage would have occured before too long (I did not intend to do any
damage - I was quite scared in fact).

Peter

{Quote hidden}

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2002\05\25@084746 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
> >I don't get what the beat freq has to do with this. A beat shouldn't be
> >able to excite a resonance at the beat freq, unless there are significant
> >nonlinear mixing effects going on.
>
> I don't know either but windows usually don't close perfectly and have
> some play, especially large tall church windows. Maybe this was the
> 'diode'. Anyway they took a few seconds to start 'singing'. I'm pretty
> sure damage would have occured before too long (I did not intend to do any
> damage - I was quite scared in fact).

I'm not sure that the electrical analogue applies fully here. Unlike EM
waves we are certain that there IS an "ether" in this case - the air is the
medium that the waves are produced in. When two such waves interact they are
represented by real pressure phenomena in the gas and "mixing" occurs at all
points.

In the case of my locomotive beating experience (which occurred
intermittently but on numerous occasions over the years that I lived there)
the effect was extremely real and manifestly repeatable. While I am not
CERTAIN that the effect was in fact caused by the two engines running side
by side at nominally identical rpm I can not think of a more probable
explanation. This only occurred in the early morning before (winter) dawn
and only for a limited period in each case. The "sound" levels were high and
they came from the shunting yard. I can imagine that the workers may even
have worked hard to produce the effect by careful idle speed adjustment :-).


       Russell McMahon

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2002\05\25@123038 by Dale Botkin

flavicon
face
On Sat, 25 May 2002, Peter L. Peres wrote:

> On Fri, 24 May 2002, Sean H. Breheny wrote:
>
> >I don't get what the beat freq has to do with this. A beat shouldn't be
> >able to excite a resonance at the beat freq, unless there are significant
> >nonlinear mixing effects going on.
>
> I don't know either but windows usually don't close perfectly and have
> some play, especially large tall church windows. Maybe this was the
> 'diode'. Anyway they took a few seconds to start 'singing'. I'm pretty
> sure damage would have occured before too long (I did not intend to do any
> damage - I was quite scared in fact).

Want my theory?  I'm thinking maybe it was like a tank circuit, or an old
spark gap transmitter.  The natural resonant frequency of the windows was
a harmonic of the beat frequency of the organ pipes, so the waves from the
orgam were enough to excite resonant oscillation in the windows - which
may well have self-destructed shortly.  Not exactly a transmitter, but
SOMEONE would have received a clear message...  8-)

Dale

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2002\05\25@142530 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
On Sat, 25 May 2002, Russell McMahon wrote:

>> >I don't get what the beat freq has to do with this. A beat shouldn't be
>> >able to excite a resonance at the beat freq, unless there are significant
>> >nonlinear mixing effects going on.
>>
>> I don't know either but windows usually don't close perfectly and have
>> some play, especially large tall church windows. Maybe this was the
>> 'diode'. Anyway they took a few seconds to start 'singing'. I'm pretty
>> sure damage would have occured before too long (I did not intend to do any
>> damage - I was quite scared in fact).
>
>I'm not sure that the electrical analogue applies fully here. Unlike EM
>waves we are certain that there IS an "ether" in this case - the air is the
>medium that the waves are produced in. When two such waves interact they are
>represented by real pressure phenomena in the gas and "mixing" occurs at all
>points.

My experience with mechanical harmonic oscillators is that nonlinear
events in the course of the motion cause harmonics. Example is guitar
string and incorrectly fastened fret (gives 'metal' sound liked by some =
lots of harmonics of the fundamental and some others caused by the
separately vibrating two sides of the chord - the metal fret becomes a
forced null for half the period of the fundamental).  Also two crystal
glasses pinged very close together so they touch will make weird sounds
(harmonics again).

In general a harmonic oscillator that can impact elastically on something
(by elastic I do not mean rubber - rather marble or solid steel) will make
a lot of harmonics. Think of the noise produced by fans, washing machines,
motors etc when their elastic mountings fail and allow them to touch their
bases intermittently.

>In the case of my locomotive beating experience (which occurred
>intermittently but on numerous occasions over the years that I lived there)
>the effect was extremely real and manifestly repeatable. While I am not
>CERTAIN that the effect was in fact caused by the two engines running side
>by side at nominally identical rpm I can not think of a more probable
>explanation. This only occurred in the early morning before (winter) dawn
>and only for a limited period in each case. The "sound" levels were high and
>they came from the shunting yard. I can imagine that the workers may even
>have worked hard to produce the effect by careful idle speed adjustment :-).

Peter

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2002\05\25@143558 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
By the way, I've changed the topic tag to EE.

> This is a true story. Many years ago I had a friend with just this
problem.
{Quote hidden}

button.
> Loud humming buzzing and other noises from next apartment. After a small
> while the sound system was turned off. The problem stopped very shortly
> after this but I'm not sure how much the welder had to do with it.
>
> Interestingly, the affect on a TV in my friends apartment was relatively
> minimal - distinct diagonal bars but picture still viewable.

I had a similar problem as a freshman in the dorm at college.  The guy in
the next room had large speakers right up against the thin wall, which was
right up against my bed, and he wasn't real nice about keeping the volume
down.  He liked to study with the stereo cranked.  In particular he liked to
listen to the campus FM radio station.  One day I noticed that he had one of
those typical cheap folded dipole FM antennas that looked like a "T" made
from TV twin lead, and that the antenna was stuck to the wall I was on the
other side of.  I had a signal generator that by lucky coincidence could to
both AM and FM modulation, and worked up broadcast FM frequencies.  It's
power output was extremely low, but I put up my own twin lead antenna on the
other side of the wall only 3 inches from his.  That was enough so that the
signal generator could overwhelm the broadcast signal.  He couldn't
understand why his radio cut out for a few seconds occasionally while I was
testing the setup.  The ear piece of a telephone worked well enough as a
microphone to drive the modulation input of the signal generator, but the
sound quality was bad enough to disguise the voice.

I waited until one evening there were a bunch of people in his room hanging
out eating pizzas, drinking beers, and generally not being very considerate
of others.  I started by emulating one of those civil defense announcements
at a break between songs:

 "This is a test of the emergency broadcast system.  This is a test.  This
is only a test ... <blah blah blah>

30 seconds of tone (built into the signal generator).

 "Attention, attention, an important announcement will follow in 60
seconds"

 ... "in 30 seconds" ...

We were used to emergency broadcast tests, but never followed by any
official announcement.  People started gathering in the room and outside in
the hall.  A hush decended as the announcement time approached.  This was
the Viet Nam era, and people were starting to take this seriously.

 "Attention, Attention. ...  <clearing of throte, pregnant pause>

 "David Cooperburg <comment about his sexual habits in relation to the
genitals of a large land animal>"

People were rolling on the floor laughing, literally.  David was extremely
embarrassed and didn't know how to react and flailled around doing stupid
things, which of course provided more entertainment, which made it worse,
etc, etc.  By the time he figured I probably had something to do with it,
all the evidence was long out of sight.


*****************************************************************
Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts
(978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com

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2002\05\25@150110 by Philip Pemberton

face picon face
>   "This is a test of the emergency broadcast system.  This is a test.
This
> is only a test ... <blah blah blah>
[snip]
>   "Attention, Attention. ...  <clearing of throte, pregnant pause>
>
>   "David Cooperburg <comment about his sexual habits in relation to the
> genitals of a large land animal>"
ROTFLMAO!
I'll have to remember that trick :-)

Later.
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2002\05\25@162315 by Herbert Graf

flavicon
face
> -----Original Message-----
> From: pic microcontroller discussion list
> [TakeThisOuTPICLISTspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU]On Behalf Of Olin Lathrop
> Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2002 09:12
> To: PICLISTEraseMEspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject: Re: [EE]: Electronic Warfare - Solution
>
>
SNIP...
> People were rolling on the floor laughing, literally.  David was extremely
> embarrassed and didn't know how to react and flailled around doing stupid
> things, which of course provided more entertainment, which made it worse,
> etc, etc.  By the time he figured I probably had something to do with it,
> all the evidence was long out of sight.

       Olin, that has got to be one of the funniest things I've EVER heard in the
realm of "giving somebody what they deserve"! TTYL

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2002\05\29@074851 by Joe Farr

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face
Electronic warfare is all well and good but remember, if you interfere
with the chaps pacemaker, trip his mains breakers and stop his kidney
machine, or the ventilator that's keeping his 90 year old mother alive,
your be in deep poo... There was a case in the UK a few years back where one guy was playing
loud music late at night (he used to work shifts). So, the other
neighbour started to leave his hi-fi on full blast when he went to work
during the day so that the night shift guy couldn't get any sleep. The
night shift guy got so stressed that he had a heart attack and died. The
day shift guy was arrested for man slaughter.....



{Original Message removed}

2002\05\29@084937 by Andrew Hooper

flavicon
face
Hehe Is this the same UK that arrests and convicts and imprisons people
for collecting golf balls, There are some stupid laws about. I'm surprised
that the convicted man did not plead temporary insanity.

But you are correct the best way is never revenge, and two wrongs never
make a right, however one way that seems to work is to arrange a simple
petition with the neighbors and if the person is renting get them kicked
out.

just because we can does not mean we should, but often knowing we can
is enough.

Andrew

----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Farr" <@spam@joe.farrRemoveMEspamEraseMEKCSL.UK.COM>
To: <EraseMEPICLISTspam@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2002 6:57 AM
Subject: Re: [PIC]: Electronic Warfare - Solution


{Quote hidden}

> {Original Message removed}

2002\05\29@085411 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
Re plastic RF welder used to disrupt loud 4am music -
Joe wrote -

Electronic warfare is all well and good but remember, if you interfere
with the chaps pacemaker, trip his mains breakers and stop his kidney
machine, or the ventilator that's keeping his 90 year old mother alive,
your be in deep poo...

___________

I must admit that that's one aspect I had never considered!
Certainly seemed entirely harmless and entirely fair at the time but so do
many things that go terribly wrong. We recently had a man here charged with
manslaughter after he set another man's grass skirt on fire at an office
dressup party. To everyone's dismay the skirt caught rapidly and the man
died. Nobody wins in such cases.


       Russell McMahon

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2002\05\29@091848 by Joe Farr

flavicon
face
As with all things, normally you only ever half a story - usually the bit the press want you to here.
If the man had asked permission (and received it) from the golf club, there would have been no problem.
The golf balls belong to the club, once lost by their original owner (finders keepers I suppose)
But sneaking into the golf course at night, without permission (trespass) and then 'finding' a whole bunch of golf balls (theft) in 3ft of muddy water so that he can resell them (avoidance of inland revenue tax's) is against the law of most countries I would think
He should be thankful that the judge (who I believe clearly overreacted) didn't order his immediate execution.
I suppose he should also be thankful that this didn't happen in the USA. I think he could have been shot for trespassing.



{Original Message removed}

2002\05\29@173740 by Benjamin Bromilow

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From: "Joe Farr" <@spam@joe.farrspam_OUTspam.....KCSL.UK.COM>
>But sneaking into the golf course at night, without >permission (trespass) and then 'finding' a whole bunch of >golf balls (theft) in 3ft of muddy water so that he can resell >them (avoidance of inland revenue tax's) is against the law >of most countries I would think

Actually, he had registered the sales and was paying tax!!

Ben

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'[EE]: Electronic Warfare ?'
2002\05\29@190711 by Russell McMahon

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Here's a device which appeared to have destroyed an electronic camera at a
significant distance away. Bit large and expensive for the average home use
though.

       http://www.ee.surrey.ac.uk/Personal/D.Jefferies/tidbin.html

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2002\05\29@191735 by Tal Bejerano - AMC

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Thanks Russell no problem build it !
but where i can get a koala bear?

Regards

Tal Bejerano
AMC - ISRAEL


{Original Message removed}

2002\05\29@192955 by Gabriel Caffese

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Excelent, Russell !!!
Have you built it alone ?


-----Mensaje original-----
De: pic microcontroller discussion list
[spamBeGonePICLISTEraseMEspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU]En nombre de Russell McMahon
Enviado el: Miércoles, 29 de Mayo de 2002 20:03
Para: PICLISTspamBeGonespamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Asunto: [EE]: Electronic Warfare ?


Here's a device which appeared to have destroyed an electronic camera at a
significant distance away. Bit large and expensive for the average home use
though.

       http://www.ee.surrey.ac.uk/Personal/D.Jefferies/tidbin.html

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2002\05\29@193838 by Jim

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I'm compelled to state that I *seriously* doubt personnel
were allowed anywhere near where a 'personnel hazard'
could possibly exist and I also doubt that the 'sidelobes'
at distance from such an antenna would contain enough energy
to damage electronics as well ...

Jim

{Original Message removed}

2002\05\29@195234 by Russell McMahon

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> I'm compelled to state that I *seriously* doubt personnel
> were allowed anywhere near where a 'personnel hazard'
> could possibly exist and I also doubt that the 'sidelobes'
> at distance from such an antenna would contain enough energy
> to damage electronics as well ...


You may be right.
But there is an awful lot (technical term) of power involved.
Antenna gain is 40 million (75 dB) and transmit power is 400 kW so that's 16
Terrawatts (16,000,000,000,000) EIRP.

Wouldn't need to much of a sidelobe to do quite some damage. All the camera
needs is for some highish impedance point to rise to a voltage somewhat in
excess of local supply voltage and the energy from the camera supply could
do the rest - SCR latchup or something similar by a normally never biased on
pathway.



       RM

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2002\05\29@195951 by Jinx

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> Here's a device which appeared to have destroyed an electronic
> camera at a significant distance away. Bit large and expensive
> for the average home use though.
>
>         http://www.ee.surrey.ac.uk/Personal/D.Jefferies/tidbin.html

The one that Thunderbirds use is better - makes the film in the
camera go "sproing" out the back too

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2002\05\29@213448 by mark

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On 30 May 2002 at 11:50, Russell McMahon wrote:

> Antenna gain is 40 million (75 dB) and transmit power is 400 kW so that's 16
> Terrawatts (16,000,000,000,000) EIRP.
>

How about the poor birds flying over the antenna ?

---
Marcelo Puhl
Mensa Brasil member
http://www.mensa.com.br

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2002\05\30@100340 by Jim

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  "Wouldn't need to much of a sidelobe to do
   quite some damage."

Hmmm ... funny all these devices aren't affected by
the normal (nowadays) level of RF we see in urban
areas on a day to day basis - whether that RF is
from a hand-operated PL 2 (Power level 2  - .6 Watt
maximum) TDMA NADC (North American Digital Cellular)
phone or a European GSM OR the RF from multi-carrier
sectored serving cell site OR RF from any of the many
AM radio stations near urman areas OR the many 2-way radios
in use such as the two to five watt VHF and UHF busines
band and public service and Ham transceivers in fairly
widespread use ...

Or how about ASR RADAR that I'm sure have _much_ higher
relative sidelobe values and nearly corresponding peak
RF power from the transmitter located only 100s of
yards from the public (DFW Internatioal Airport as
an example) ...

Of course - the camera in cases like these also has it's
own integral first level of protection - protection that
also assits in providing some level of ESD (electro-static
discharge) or 'carpet/cat/shoe-shuffling static' that is
seen in every day use and handling -

- a semi (if not outright) conducting plastic case (perhaps
with a light flash of zinc film on the interior surface ...

Jim



{Original Message removed}

2002\05\30@133131 by Peter L. Peres

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On Wed, 29 May 2002, Marcelo Puhl wrote:

>On 30 May 2002 at 11:50, Russell McMahon wrote:
>
>> Antenna gain is 40 million (75 dB) and transmit power is 400 kW so that's 16
>> Terrawatts (16,000,000,000,000) EIRP.
>>
>
>How about the poor birds flying over the antenna ?

Depending on flight speed, you get rare, medium rare, well done, or
overcooked free meals.

Peter

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'[PICLIST] FW: [PIC]: Electronic Warfare - Solution'
2002\05\30@162834 by Joe Farr

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Electronic warfare is all well and good but remember, if you interfere
with the chaps pacemaker, trip his mains breakers and stop his kidney
machine, or the ventilator that's keeping his 90 year old mother alive,
your be in deep poo... There was a case in the UK a few years back where one guy was playing
loud music late at night (he used to work shifts).  So, the other
neighbour started to leave his hi-fi on full blast when he went to work
during the day so that the night shift guy couldn't get any sleep. The
night shift guy got so stressed that he had a heart attack and died. The
day shift guy was arrested for man slaughter.....



{Original Message removed}

'[EE]: Electronic Warfare ?'
2002\05\30@163944 by Sean H. Breheny

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Russell,

You may be overlooking the fact that the stated antenna pattern is only
valid when far away from the antenna. For example, if you have an antenna
that has a 0.01 radian beamwidth, and a 100 meter diameter, you would
calculate that the beam should only be about 1 meter wide at 100 meters
away. However, it will be more like 100 meters wide. A rough approximation
(to the actual diffraction effects going on) is that the beam is as wide as
the dish and not divergent, right up to the point where the beamwidth times
distance equals the dish diameter, and it is divergent with the stated
beamwidth beyond that.

Also, it would have to be a mighty fast SCR to respond to GHz range
signals, wouldn't it?

Sean

At 11:50 AM 5/30/2002 +1200, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2002\05\30@233255 by Russell McMahon

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> You may be overlooking the fact that the stated antenna pattern is only
> valid when far away from the antenna.

Maybe not so much overlooking as getting a feel for the overall power of the
beast. One is liable to be in the near field at the range he was taking
photos at. If instead we take the opposite extreme (also incorrect) and
assume that the power was radiated half isotropically - ie linearly in the
whole direction then one is still standing in the lair of a 400 kW beast.
Taking inverse square law drop off (also incorrect here) and comparing with
a 1 watt transmitter - one would have to be sqrt(400,000) = 600 times closer
to get the same result. If the photo was taken from 200 metres away (can't
recall the picture well) that would be the same as placing the camera within
1/3 of a metre of a working 1 wat transmitter aerial. Probably OK but if it
did cause problems one would not be surprised. If though there is any sort
of gain over isotropic where you are standing due to a lobe etc then the
situation gets worse. I suspect the transmitter is at least a likely
contender for the caera's demise.

> Also, it would have to be a mighty fast SCR to respond to GHz range
> signals, wouldn't it?

I think you are liable to get bulk recitification of the power signal and
the resultant DC voltages can then play such games as they can find. The
effective diode(s) doesn't have to be optimised for th egHz range to still
work there.

Maybe we should do some more research. Anyone live near Canberra and have a
few spare digital cameras to spare ?



       RM






{Quote hidden}

16
> >Terrawatts (16,000,000,000,000) EIRP.
> >
> >Wouldn't need to much of a sidelobe to do quite some damage. All the
camera
> >needs is for some highish impedance point to rise to a voltage somewhat
in
> >excess of local supply voltage and the energy from the camera supply
could
> >do the rest - SCR latchup or something similar by a normally never biased
on
{Quote hidden}

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'[EE]: Anti Anti electronic warfare warfare'
2003\04\04@073807 by Russell McMahon
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GPS jamming in active use, as predicted.
I'd be surprised if they only had 6.
Ideally these should be on the move. They can be very cheap and do not need
to be stable or stationary.
The fact that they are targetting them suggests that they were achieving the
desired affects.
________________________________

CNN:

Coalition forces bombed six GPS (Global Positioning System) jammers in Iraq
on March 24, used to jam satellite guidance systems, according to a
statement from the Combined Forces Air Component Command. The low-cost GPS
jammers were used to try "to disrupt the guidance system of satellite-guided
munitions," the statement said. When jammers are used, signals from space
are overpowered by signals coming from Earth, which is crucial for the
targeting of precision-guided weapons. The GPS jamming would impede the
launch of a JDAM (Joint Direct Attack Munitions) "smart bomb" because the
bomb would indicate that it is not picking up the right signal.

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2003\04\04@085010 by John Ferrell

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I cannot think of an easier target than one that transmits a signal.
The only practical purpose of live signal source would be to make an
adversary waste munitions destroying it...

Of course one would have to consider if the moving GPS jamming signal might
be more useful to track an adversary in real time...

{Original Message removed}

2003\04\04@085557 by Jake Anderson

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yes but my jammer costs $20 in parts and you have to fly a 20million dollar
plane out and drop a $500 000 bomb on it when that plane and bomb could have
been better spent on other targets.

and in the mean time your troops are basically lost or at least seriously
disadvantaged

GPS spoofing is another matter entirley
if i can tell your bomb that it isnt where it thinks it is i win in a much
better way
same goes for your soldiers

(uhhh for the nutters out there "mine" and "yours" in this email are
intended to make explination of the concept easier not actually to indicate
support for either side)

{Original Message removed}

2003\04\04@091759 by John Ferrell

face picon face
I agree.
War is a game of resource management. Making your adversary trade rooks for
pawns is usually good strategy.

John Ferrell
6241 Phillippi Rd
Julian NC 27283
Phone: (336)685-9606
Dixie Competition Products
NSRCA 479 AMA 4190  W8CCW
"My Competition is Not My Enemy"



{Original Message removed}

2003\04\04@105128 by Russell McMahon

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> I cannot think of an easier target than one that transmits a signal.
> The only practical purpose of live signal source would be to make an
> adversary waste munitions destroying it...

The signal CAN be (but probably isn't) spreadpectrum and low level,
requiring a custom receiver (which they have probably got). A HARM type
missile could be assigned to this task but a GPS guided one may not work :-)

> Of course one would have to consider if the moving GPS jamming signal
might
> be more useful to track an adversary in real time...

A significant number mounted on miscellaneous vehicles (possibly with a
manual panic button :-( ) may cause substantial disruption.


       RM

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2003\04\04@132417 by Wagner Lipnharski

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John Ferrell wrote:
> I agree.
> War is a game of resource management. Making your adversary trade
> rooks for pawns is usually good strategy.

One should never forget that IF one opponent can produce as many ROOKS as
he wants, using his OWN money, producing it in his OWN country -
factories - material and manpower, it will MOVE more money and create MORE
jobs, IMPROVE his economy and his factories, cycle his TAXES speed, PROMOTE
his technology development and more.

Sometimes it is a good business to trade the 6 adversaries only PAWNS by 20
of your own ROOKS, mostly when you can produce other thousand ROOKS if
necessary.

One should never forget that when you expend 60 billion dollars in his own
country, it means exactly 60 billion dollars in motion money, not a single
coin wasted.

That's the same old story of two guys in a Vegas Casino.  One is
millionaire, the other is a common guy who makes $2000/month with a bank
account with an average balance of $200 and $20k in credit card debits.
Both guys went to the casino, after 4 hours both get out, smiling.  The
common guy is happy because he enjoyed playing cards, did it for 4 hours,
and after all yet made $100 in profit.  The millionaire also enjoy playing
cards, he is also happy because he did it for 4 hours and at this time he
LOST only $50 thousand dollars at the casino.  The common guy could say he
"worked" 4 hours at $25/hour, the millionaire could say his factories gave
him $600 thousand dollars during those 4 hours, so he made $550 thousand
profit during the 4 hours at the casino.  Everything is a point of view.

Wagner

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2003\04\04@132802 by Wagner Lipnharski

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Russell McMahon wrote:
> GPS jamming in active use, as predicted.
> I'd be surprised if they only had 6.
> Ideally these should be on the move. They can be very cheap and do
> not need to be stable or stationary.
> The fact that they are targetting them suggests that they were
> achieving the desired affects.


GPS Jammers were hit with GPS guided bombs...
sooo... they were not effective,
the destruction was just a prevention.

Bacteria in your hands can't kill you,
but you always wash your hands before eating, don't you?

Wagner.

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2003\04\06@095352 by John Ferrell

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Yes!
Most man made games have pretty simple boundries compared to real life.
While the Vegas scenario can become a relitively harmless recreation for
both parties,
it is important to note that no one is subjected to conditions beyond their
individual tolerences.

Now that the Cold war game is mostly behind us, it becomes visible that it
served the purpose of
driving the involved countries economies.

The Space Race was another such game.

Each PIC project you design is also a resource management game. Your common
parameters are
time, money, parts availability, pin count, memory constraints, power
requirements and (blush!) personal limitations...

PIC'n, Chess, video games and war are all games of resource management...

{Original Message removed}

'[OT]: <-Re: PICLIST Anti Anti electronic warfare '
2003\04\06@150300 by Russell McMahon

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Changed to OT

I'm not an economist (as may become obvious very quickly) but I' dare to
suggest that there are some dangerous assumptions in this argument (even
though some are made by as eminent a person as Wagner :-)).

> Now that the Cold war game is mostly behind us, it becomes visible that it
> served the purpose of driving the involved countries economies.
> The Space Race was another such game.

Yes - both the same game actually.

> > One should never forget that IF one opponent can produce as many ROOKS
as
> > he wants, using his OWN money, producing it in his OWN country -
> > factories - material and manpower, it will MOVE more money and create
MORE
> > jobs, IMPROVE his economy and his factories, cycle his TAXES speed,
> PROMOTE
> > his technology development and more.

This argument has some merit in that it is obviously useful to increase
one's skill levels, employment rates etc BUT if at the end you have a
product which has no value in its own right then you have not used your
resource optimally. If the same resources shad been used to produce
something of inherent worth one would be further ahead. An "arms race" (ie
two or more competing participants developing escalating capabilities
whether in weapons systems or many other areas) does have the affect of
driving capability forward but not necessarily as effectively as could have
been achieved in another environment. The value of the end product MAY be
that one has more resources than one would have had without it (eg if we
hadn't had the MK16a phasor then they would have stolen all our gold) but if
all parties had combined to produce MK32c plough-shares all may have been
better off.

ie I'm saying that the next paragraph is almost always sub-optimal

> > Sometimes it is a good business to trade the 6 adversaries only PAWNS by
20
> > of your own ROOKS, mostly when you can produce other thousand ROOKS if
> > necessary.
> > One should never forget that when you expend 60 billion dollars in his
own
> > country, it means exactly 60 billion dollars in motion money, not a
single
> > coin wasted.

Manufacturing resource is an asset. If the product is "make work" then you
have largely or completely wasted that asset. The value that allows you to
spend that 60 billion dollars on motion money has to have come from
somewhere else. eg spend 60B on making statues to the great leader and you
may all starve. If you can spend 60B on making Bushes of the great statue
(something wrong there :-)) and NOT starve anyone then there is resource
coming from somewhere else as  well. It may be that the statues make you
feel
good, increase national pride, discourage other competitors or make your
people more satisfied and perhaps less questioning about the rest of the
resource, but there are liable to be alternative uses of the great statue $
that would have fed your people better. If the people are already well
enough fed, clothed etc etc then the statue may be fine, but until they are,
it's not. (cf Maslow's needs hierarchy)

An example great statue, which happened to cost ABOUT $60B, was US Moon
program. This is an excellent Great Statue analogy. I'm a space enthusiast
and I am pleased that the US went to the moon, but I think it was a poor way
to do it and a poor use of resources. It DID produce much work for people.
It DID enhance technology levels, skills, factories, tax flow and more. It
did increase scientific knowledge. But its main aim was, its generally
agreed, to prove the superiority of the US to the USSR. And to help them to
be superior by the skills which were developed along the way. And to help
grind the adversaries down by making them compete in areas which they would
perhaps not have engaged in otherwise. At the peak of the "space race" it
was costing every US man woman and child $US0.50 per day to fund the
project. Quite cheap for the results obtained. Great entertainment. Feeling
of national superiority. Crushing blows to soviet morale (very important).
Better electronics & miniaturisation. Better missile systems (although
arguably the net affect was to divert money from this area)(possibly a bonus
:-).  Diversion of the other guy's money from areas he would rather have
spent it in. Some spinoffs in industry developments. etc

But IF the US and Soviet people had got together and developed the same
capability jointly it could have cost less, been done quicker and been done
better. (Better, cheaper, faster - choose all 3 :-) ). But, of course it
wouldn;t have been. The arguments over who got the pork belly spinoffs -
whose state / country it would have been made in, the political philosophy,
better dead than Red / Blue, and lack of motivation and drive, would almost
certainly have made it more expensive and less effective. In short, human
nature gets in the way. Here the capitalism versus communism and all their
variants rear their heads and must be stamped on quickly lest this turn into
a yelling match :-).
If we could have arranged some external motivating influence that so gripped
the wills and beliefs of all combined that they KNEW that they MUST work
together in the common interest with the outcome as the goal and not all the
spinoffs, then it could have been done better. But until we have such a
motivating factor (don't hold your breath) we will build rooks and pawns
galore as make work and believe we are doing good in the process.

> > That's the same old story of two guys in a Vegas Casino.

I think the casino analogy has too many assumptions that need to be made to
make it fit the wider economic model well. But it's a fine example of human
nature.



           Russell McMahon

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'<-Re: PICLIST Anti Anti electronic warfare warfa'
2003\04\06@152831 by Richard Graziano

picon face
Although I am not employed as an economist, I do have a graduate degree in
political economy and I teach.  That, however, does not lead me to believe
that I have all the answers.  Actually, it leads me to suspect those who do
have all of the answers.  I enjoy the comments and observations of various
groups of people.  The thing that I find most interesting is that the
enormous complexity of these issue is often overlooked.  And, yet, some
great insights are often revealed.  I like these discussions.

Richard

{Original Message removed}

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