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'[PICLIST] [OT] RE: Tragedy'
2001\09\12@083411 by Justin Fielding

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The way the American Government act, and the way the American people blindly
support it (thinking that the USA rule the world).

Justin Fielding
IT Operations Analyst
TV Travelshop


{Original Message removed}

2001\09\12@130501 by Raymond Choat

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Again you mistake the US government for the US people. They are not the same
and do not act the same. Do you think all people blindly support their
government? Killing civilians is wrong anywhere in the world for any reason
and most people everywhere believe this. You don't understand Americans
because while everyone in your neighborhood from your view is "Sheeple" its
not that way in my neighborhood. No our government is not perfect. I look at
it like this: We are all standing in buckets of sh*t, but the USA bucket is
the least full. This bucket is the best place to try to make an empty bucket
from. Now look in your bucket and continue to worry about mine.....


----- Original Message -----
From: "Justin Fielding" <spam_OUTJFieldingTakeThisOuTspamTVTRAVELSHOP.LTD.UK>
To: <.....PICLISTKILLspamspam@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 4:27 AM
Subject: [OT] RE: Tragedy


> The way the American Government act, and the way the American people
blindly
> support it (thinking that the USA rule the world).
>
> Justin Fielding
> IT Operations Analyst
> TV Travelshop
>
>
> {Original Message removed}

2001\09\12@132252 by John Craft

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I think the bastards will get what they deserve, a missile up the rear.
They have awaken the sleeping giant that hasn't raised it's head since WWII.
The government will give them what they deserve because that's what the
people here want, not the reverse.  They brought the fight to us and I know
they don't understand what this means to them and every other terrorist
hiding about.  I don't want justice, I want some butt.

Yes, I understand that this is a "BAD" position to take, but ask the dead
what they want.....

Jc.

{Original Message removed}

2001\09\12@134509 by D. Schouten

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My deepest condolances to every American! Holland is behind you on
this. It's just unbelievable what I've seen on tv sofar.

Daniel...

----- Original Message -----
From: John Craft <jcraftspamKILLspamDIAMONDDATA.COM>
To: <.....PICLISTKILLspamspam.....MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 19:21
Subject: Re: [OT] RE: Tragedy


> I think the bastards will get what they deserve, a missile up the
rear.
> They have awaken the sleeping giant that hasn't raised it's head
since WWII.
> The government will give them what they deserve because that's what
the
> people here want, not the reverse.  They brought the fight to us and
I know
> they don't understand what this means to them and every other
terrorist
> hiding about.  I don't want justice, I want some butt.
>
> Yes, I understand that this is a "BAD" position to take, but ask the
dead
> what they want.....
>
> Jc.
>
> {Original Message removed}

2001\09\12@152310 by Dal Wheeler

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What I can't seem to get ahold of is what they hoped to accomplish by
committing this act.  Most of the interviewed "Arabic nations experts"
perspectives seem to suggest that the US had this coming from primarily our
support of Israel (as well as things like the bombing of an aspirin
company.)  That aside, I can't see how proving Israel's point for them is
going to change American policy positively.

BTW, what kind of psycho's would celebrate this kind of tragedy?  I'm
surprised Palistine would allow this kind of thing to be filmed.  This
doesn't put them in the best light.  One would think there would be more
denouncing coming from that part of the world.

Freedom fighters indeed.  How could you expect *less* interference in that
part of the world by sending terrorists out to kill a huge number of
civilian targets.

-Dal

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2001\09\12@155847 by Peter Barick

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>>> dwheelerspamspam_OUTINSIGHTEK.COM 09/12/01 02:17PM >>>
>>What I can't seem to get ahold of is what they hoped to accomplish
by
>>committing this act.
...
>>That aside, I can't see how proving Israel's point for them is
>>going to change American policy positively.
<<klip>>
>>-Dal

Hmm, well, Dal, don't chya think some Americans may become *more*
concerned about the $6+ billions being given to Israel for "fun" money?
Where is the accountability here? Some could conclude that all those
bucks turn into harsh treatment for Israel's neighbors. No?

I for one think the gravy train of bucks and tanks for Israel must be
pegged to progress in Them accommodating some of the Palestinian's's
concerns for living in that land.

Lacking compassion for the "other side" makes the US appear as louts
and bullies, not a very nice picture, my friend. Makes some very angry.

Peter

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2001\09\12@164126 by John Craft

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Would that be the same palalestinian's that were dancing in the streets at
the thousands of Americans being killed?

Whatever sympathy I had for them is now gone, I'm with Israel now....

Jc.

{Original Message removed}

2001\09\12@180138 by Ron Anthony

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Thank you John.  Reasoned, hard line realization of what needs to be done,
nay, MUST be done.  They ASKED for what they may get.  I say may because as
you can see from the reaction to my earlier post, bleeding heart liberalism
is the norm.  Compassion loses to the terrorists.  In fact it's the very
mechanism for their success.  Sad, but true.  It's time to kill who needs to
be killed and engage in physical destuction of places, people, etc. to
construct, in reverse, the world as is should have been before this
incident.

People love the status quo.  Nobody wants a fight.  We need to create a new
status quo.

{Original Message removed}

2001\09\12@203925 by Russell McMahon

picon face
BRUSSELS, Belgium (CNN) -- NATO has unanimously declared the
hijack attacks on the U.S. to be an assault against all member
states. Secretary-General George Robertson said the U.S. would
receive support for military action from its 18 NATO partners
if it is found the assaults were committed by foreign
nationals.

For complete coverage of this story visit:
http://www.CNN.com or AOL Keyword: CNN

CNN Headline News has changed everything but its name.
Visit us online at http://cnn.com/headlinenews
========================================================
To UNSUBSCRIBE or SUBSCRIBE to any CNN E-MAIL service visit:
http://www.CNN.com/EMAIL

(c) 2001 Cable News Network, Inc.
CNN Interactive email id:6899161402260969

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2001\09\13@035348 by uter van ooijen & floortje hanneman

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Thank you John.  Reasoned, hard line realization of what needs to be done,
nay, MUST be done.  They ASKED for what they may get.  I say may because as
you can see from the reaction to my earlier post, bleeding heart liberalism
is the norm.  Compassion loses to the terrorists.  In fact it's the very
mechanism for their success.  Sad, but true.  It's time to kill who needs to
be killed and engage in physical destuction of places, people, etc. to
construct, in reverse, the world as is should have been before this
incident.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thank you Achmed. After all these killings of children that did not more
than
throwing a stone, a hard line action is what needs to be done,
nay, MUST be done.  They ASKED for what they may get.  I say may
beacuse sadly many of our fellow followers of Allah want to follow
the hounourless course of appeasment. Compassion loses to the imperialists.
In fact it's the very mechanism for their success.  Sad, but true.
It's time to kill who needs to be killed and engage in physical destuction
of
places, people, etc. to construct, in reverse, the world as is should have
been before those nations ever existed

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

See where words can get you? BTW I do NOT imply to know that Arabs
or Islam had anything to do with it.

Wouter

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2001\09\13@043653 by D Lloyd

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You cannot ask the dead what they want - they are dead. So, instead of
speculating, how about thinking that dead people most likely did not want
to die. Just like anyone else in the world right now....

And significant numbers will if your country just decides to destroy
indiscriminately so you can call get your "butt"

It's not time for "kickin' ass" just because you can - that is why this
happened to you in the first place.

Dan

To: spamBeGonePICLISTspamBeGonespamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
cc:
From: John Craft <TakeThisOuTjcraftEraseMEspamspam_OUTDIAMONDDATA.COM>
Subject: Re: [OT] RE: Tragedy



I think the bastards will get what they deserve, a missile up the rear.
They have awaken the sleeping giant that hasn't raised it's head since
WWII.
The government will give them what they deserve because that's what the
people here want, not the reverse.  They brought the fight to us and I know
they don't understand what this means to them and every other terrorist
hiding about.  I don't want justice, I want some butt.

Yes, I understand that this is a "BAD" position to take, but ask the dead
what they want.....

Jc.

{Original Message removed}

2001\09\13@044941 by Justin Fielding

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Very well said, I find it amazing that most Americans cannot understand why
people would want to do this.  Don't they understand how much they are hated
around the world?  Don't they understand why?  I think some will start to
realize.

Justin Fielding
IT Operations Analyst
TV Travelshop


{Original Message removed}

2001\09\13@072844 by Mike Kendall

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Yes Justin, the Americans are hated by many people in the world who fear
and/or don't have what they want.  The Americans have a way of life that is
very alien to some who live under a dictatorship, or cannot choose their own
religion, or have been programmed through  propoganda etc..  You live in the
UK or Canada??  You stike me as the type of personality that would be seen
as a flag burner during a broadcast demonstration on the news.  You have
also succeeded in pissing off many people on this great listserv.  I resent
you for voicing your unwelcomed and anti-american/anti-free world opinions
and also for bringing down this listserv several notches through your
attempts to stir everyone up.  I'm going to attempt to contact your employer
to pass on to them some of your emails.  You are very immature.  You have
the right to your own opinion....but also you have the right to be disliked
because of it also.  You are a real jerk Justin.
Mike Kendall
----- Original Message -----
From: "Justin Fielding" <RemoveMEJFieldingspamTakeThisOuTTVTRAVELSHOP.LTD.UK>
To: <PICLISTEraseMEspam.....MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 8:42 AM
Subject: Re: [OT] RE: Tragedy


> Very well said, I find it amazing that most Americans cannot understand
why
> people would want to do this.  Don't they understand how much they are
hated
> around the world?  Don't they understand why?  I think some will start to
> realize.
>
> Justin Fielding
> IT Operations Analyst
> TV Travelshop
>
>
> {Original Message removed}

2001\09\13@075636 by Justin Fielding

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lol, you can think what you want.  Im not saying that I dislike Americans
but I am pointing out that America as a nation don't have a right to do some
of the things they do.  I am also pointing out that allot of people do not
like America because of these things.  I think that saying these people envy
Americas wealth and freedom is not 100% true, lots of Arabs are extremely
rich and most of those who are not do not see material wealth as important.

I am not Anti-American, Im not glad of what happened, Im not stirring people
up.  Im just saying that you have to step back and look at the WHOLE
picture, not just the events in New York.  You have to try and understand
why it was done, not just get yourself raged up strike out in anger.

"I'm going to attempt to contact your employer to pass on to them some of
your emails", well thats real mature.  I take it you would be trying to have
me persecuted for my views, that's a good example of democracy and freedom
now isn't it!  Why do you think they would want to know?  Do you understand
that all email in the company passes through a sweeper and is monitored
anyway?

I think there are others on the list who would agree that you need to try
and see issues from every point of view or any actions taken will end up
causing more problems.  Blind attacks on people or nations suspected would
create another generation of fanatics and greater reason for them to want to
strike out at the west.

Maybe you should think about things too?

Justin.

BTW how do I unsubscribe from the off-topic posts?  I want to subscribe only
to [PIC] posts as it seems people only want to hear certain things within
off-topic posts and if I have upset lots of people here (of which I doubt)
then I will give up trying to reason and just get on with projects.


{Original Message removed}

2001\09\13@105354 by John Craft

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Dan,

Think what you like.  These people deserve the massive carnage (hopefully
nuclear) that will fall upon them shortly.  What would you have us do, give
them a big hug.  They hijacked airliners full of people going about their
own business and killed them all, along with the everyone in the buildings.
What gives them the right to do this?  They don't like the U.S., they don't
like our policies, I tell what their not going to like, being scraped off
our boots.

Kickin' Ass is exactly what is needed, and not because we can.  Because they
asked for it.

Jc.

{Original Message removed}

2001\09\13@110418 by Stephen Holland

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Mike,

Please don't try to put the label of 'Canadian' or 'UK' on this guy, simply
because he is, as an individual, a selfish idiot. Putting labels out there
just tends to lump all people in said countries into the same basket. I am
sure the VAST majority of peole in all  (but a few) countries share in our
grief...

> {Original Message removed}

2001\09\13@110830 by D Lloyd

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Hi,

I might as well not bother commenting - clearly people are in a state of
unreasonableness......and that is understandable under the circumstances.

However, read what I said - I never said anything about *not* retaliating
to this.  What I did say is that it should not be done just as a matter of
course to anyone who might ever have expressed a dislike of the US. It has
to be established precisely who is responsible, first. Then unleash what
you like - NATO and everyone will support the action, including me (as long
as nuclear or biological weapons are not used).

Terrorism has to be stopped in its tracks or they will realise that they
can actually get away with this. But, you cannot go around killing people
indiscriminately before it is absolutely clear who did it.

The other problem is, of course, those who are responsible couldn't care
less about dying. After all, they partake in suicide missions. How do you
stop people who blindly believe in their brainwashing or over-the top
ideologies apart from eradicating them completely?

Dan



To: EraseMEPICLISTspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
cc:
From: John Craft <RemoveMEjcraftEraseMEspamEraseMEDIAMONDDATA.COM>
Subject: Re: [OT] RE: Tragedy



Dan,

Think what you like.  These people deserve the massive carnage (hopefully
nuclear) that will fall upon them shortly.  What would you have us do, give
them a big hug.  They hijacked airliners full of people going about their
own business and killed them all, along with the everyone in the buildings.
What gives them the right to do this?  They don't like the U.S., they don't
like our policies, I tell what their not going to like, being scraped off
our boots.

Kickin' Ass is exactly what is needed, and not because we can.  Because
they
asked for it.

Jc.

{Original Message removed}

2001\09\13@112134 by Sean H. Breheny

face picon face
John,

Think of this scenario: lets say that 50 people from the U.S. organize a
terrorist group and go and kill a large number of people in, say, Russia.
Would you then sit quietly while Russia lobbed a few ICBMs at us? Do you
think that would be just retaliation? The majority of the people in
Afghanistan had nothing to do with this attack, and nothing to do with
harboring Bin Laden (this is even assuming he is the one involved).

By the way, the latest reports that I heard is that the Taliban may be
willing to hand over Bin Laden if they can review the evidence (seems to me
like a very reasonable thing, surely the U.S. would want to review evidence
before handing over anybody). Would you still want to nuke them if they
hand him over?

Sean

At 09:35 AM 9/13/01 -0500, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>{Original Message removed}

2001\09\13@114947 by dale

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> lol, you can think what you want.  Im not saying that I dislike Americans

We couldn't tell, from all the anti-American rhetoric you've been posting for the past few days.  I know *I* certainly got the impression you dislike Americans, and I'm pretty thick skinned.  perhaps you just don't communicate well.

> but I am pointing out that America as a nation don't have a right to do some
> of the things they do.  I am also pointing out that allot of people do not
> like America because of these things.  I think that saying these people envy
> Americas wealth and freedom is not 100% true, lots of Arabs are extremely
> rich and most of those who are not do not see material wealth as important.

I think you would be hard pressed to find a rich Arab who would not think material wealth is important.  If they didn't, they wouldn't be rich - they didn't get that way from living a simple life of prayer and meditation, you know.

And what exactly would you say America doesn't "have a right" to do?  Protect its own interests?  Invest money in its own businesses, and those in other countries?  Send millions of tons of food to impoverished regions?  Loan money by the billions to other countries, knowing it will never be repaid?  Send missionaries, doctors, engineers and laborers to third world countries?  Try to stem the flow of cocaine from Afghanistan and Central America?  How much of that sort of thing does Britain do, I wonder?

> I am not Anti-American, Im not glad of what happened, Im not stirring people
> up.  Im just saying that you have to step back and look at the WHOLE
> picture, not just the events in New York.  You have to try and understand
> why it was done, not just get yourself raged up strike out in anger.

When someone flies loaded airliners into commercial buildings full of civilians, I don't particularly *CARE* why it was done.  The "whole picture" is that a bunch of crazy-assed terrorists just committed the largest single act of cowardly mass murder we've seen on US soil.  Striking out is anger is the apropriate response.

> I think there are others on the list who would agree that you need to try
> and see issues from every point of view or any actions taken will end up
> causing more problems.  Blind attacks on people or nations suspected would
> create another generation of fanatics and greater reason for them to want to
> strike out at the west.

I don't think many people in the US is really interested in "blind attacks" anywhere.  We want to find those responsible -- which means those who did it, planned it, financed it, enabled it to happen by providing shelter, materials, money, arms, etc -- and make sure they pay the price.  Our goal is to make it obvious that the price for this kind of sneak terrorist attack is so incredibly high that no one will want to try anything of the sort again, ever.  Hopefully this will also reduce the number of terrorist attacks on other countries...  once again, the US carrying the water for the rest of the world that you claim hates us so much.

> BTW how do I unsubscribe from the off-topic posts?  I want to subscribe only
> to [PIC] posts as it seems people only want to hear certain things within
> off-topic posts and if I have upset lots of people here (of which I doubt)
> then I will give up trying to reason and just get on with projects.

Send mail to RemoveMElistservspam_OUTspamKILLspammitvma.mit.edu with SET PICLIST TOPICS: -[OT] in the body of the message.  If you'd take the time to read the FAQ on teh website you'd have found this pretty quickly.

Dale
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On my desk I have a workstation...

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2001\09\13@115415 by Nick Taylor

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D Lloyd wrote:
>
[snip]
> Terrorism has to be stopped in its tracks or they will realise that they
> can actually get away with this. But, you cannot go around killing people
> indiscriminately before it is absolutely clear who did it.
>
> The other problem is, of course, those who are responsible couldn't care
> less about dying. After all, they partake in suicide missions. How do you
> stop people who blindly believe in their brainwashing or over-the top
> ideologies apart from eradicating them completely?
>
> Dan

You've hit the nail on the head Dan.  Killing the people directly
responsible for this horrific act will do more damage than good.
Their deaths would only be their passport to heaven ... their reward
for dying for the holy Jihad!

We MUST make it clear that the price of terrorism is far too high
to allow potential terrorists to even consider acting out their
desires.  I fear that the US (and the UK) lack the will to do
sufficient damage to countries that support terrorism to prevent
further terrorist attacks ... and the west will become embroiled
in a long term war of attrition ... with tremendous cost to both
sides.  What was gained in Viet Nam by the US?  What was gained
in Afghanistan by the USSR?  What price was paid by Americans,
Afghanis, Soviets, Vietnamese?  What price is currently being
paid by Israel and Palestine?

We must not respond in blind anger ... we must not seek revenge!
We must thoughtfully choose a course of action that clearly
shows that the price of terrorism is astronomical, that it
will affect generations to come.  It is not sufficient to
gain a military victory.  240,000 innocent civilian deaths
in Nagasaki and Hiroshima were not enough to convince many
that nuclear war must be avoided at all costs!  We must
understand that there is no way that we can build a reliable
shield against terrorism.  Our only option is to retaliate
is a manner that makes the entire world know that even
considering a terrorist act is unthinkable.

Pray that our children can live in a world of peace.

Regards,
 -Nick T.

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2001\09\13@115432 by Peter L. Berghold

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At 12:49 PM 9/13/2001 +0100, Justin Fielding wrote:
>  Blind attacks on people or nations suspected would
>create another generation of fanatics and greater reason for them to want to
>strike out at the west.
>

Justin,

I don't think that any reasonable person wants to engage in what you refer
to as "blind attacks." As a veteran I have seen first hand the results of
blind action.

However: Nothing the United States has done deserves what happened 9/11/01.

In fact: It is the US that the whole world, free or not, seems to turn to
when they are in trouble. It is the US that everyone expects to be a leader
when all hell breaks loose. I could go on and on but I won't because I
think I am wasting bandwidth even telling you this.

Then when the US takes a leadership stance on an issue, the parties who are
on the opposite side of the table from that issue condemn the US for being
bullies, the great satan, or whatever. It is pure bullshit.


Why is it then, if everybody hates the US there are so many people trying
to become citizens of this country?

No, the folks that hate the US are the ones who have an agenda that is in
conflict with the ideals of liberty and freedom.

Trust me in this Justin: I have been overseas. I have seen things from an
international perspective.  I have seen third world countries accept our
help in one hand and try to knife us in the back with the other.

I won't try and say we the US have been perfect little altar boys on the
international front. Our leaders and descision makers are human and
flawed.  The nice thing about our political system is that at least if we
get a bad decision maker in office they are going to eventually be taken
out of office.   How long has Sodamn Insane been in power? Or Quadaffy
Duck? Now there is a pair of good leaders for you...


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2001\09\13@122811 by Ron Anthony

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Come on, what the hell am I dealing with here.  This is why the US must err
on the side of too much force.  It's the only thing most people understand.
You all make me sick.  And, beyond that, let's let the terrorists deal with
exactly what they gave us.  Yeah, like that will happen.

{Original Message removed}

2001\09\13@123418 by Ron Anthony

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Justin, we understand fine.  They are entitled to their opinion.  I don't
envy you, your mind is gone.  This happened because we were caught sleeping
at the wheel, moreso than their hatred.  We let these madmen turn a few
$1.99 box cutters into this massive devastation.  We have an open free
society, can you even comprehend that?  They used our greatest strength as
our greatest weakness.  Our lack of preparedness was the greater factor than
their misguided hatred.  Unfortunately it always takes this kind of crap
before real change happens.  The clock is ticking on terrorism, and I for
one will cherish what is to come.

{Original Message removed}

2001\09\13@124820 by Dan Michaels

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John Craft wrote:
>Would that be the same palalestinian's that were dancing in the streets at
>the thousands of Americans being killed?
>
>Whatever sympathy I had for them is now gone, I'm with Israel now....
>


John - I saw it too, and what the 3-sec newshot did not show you
is whether 100 people were rejoicing or 1,000,000.

As Mark Twain said: "... get the facts first ..."

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2001\09\13@125607 by Ron Anthony

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The Taliban needs to be completely WIPED OUT.  For crying out loud, they
destroyed those buddas carved into the cliffs.  These people are
megalomaniacal fanatics.  They shielded Bin LAden for 2
YEARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

{Original Message removed}

2001\09\13@130330 by Ron Anthony

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EXACTLY THE ONLY PROPER COUSE OF ACTION NICK.  Hopefully our leadership will
do what needs to be done to elevate humanity to the next level.  That means
pure unadulterated destruction of people, places, things, etc., in
sufficient number to serve as an infinite deterrent for all the future.  Let
it be understood that whoever takes such action, the price will be
inequitable in our favor beyond all comprehension.

NEW NEWS:  At this very minute it was just announced, 5 firefighters found
alive and well in the rubble of the WTC, inside an SUV buried under tons of
debris

{Original Message removed}

2001\09\17@014830 by dr. Imre Bartfai

flavicon
face
Hello,

I want to hurt nobody and I am deeply touched because of the tragedy. I
can not accept ANY violence leading to hurt/death of innocent people. I am
deeply disappointed as I have seen on tv as Palestinians were beeing
lucky about what happened.

But please allow me some remarks:

1. At this point no one in the public opinion has the sure knowledge who
is/are responsible for those attacks. It would be wise not to take any
measure which could be regreted afterwards.

2. I must disagree Mike because of free world <> America even if lot of
people is wanting to believe this.

3. I must remember Americans had also attacked Yugoslavia a lot of times
using aircraft only because of they tought a life of an American soldier
is much more worth than hundreds of civilians of another country. If I
would not right with this opinion, they could have done a targeted action
directed to Miloshevic and capture him. They must have believed it is a
too high political risk to loose soldiers that's why they have choosen not
so focused means. As result, beneath of killing some completely innocent
peoples (it is not significant whether they hated/liked America), they
destroyed a Danubian bridge causing an extremely high damage not only
Yugoslavia but also their allieds as Hungary and Germany. It is a wrong
way nowadays to punish nations rather than punish individuals. Exactly
this tragedy has shown it in a terrible way. Of course, I do not want do
say and I do not think those terrorists have right. In contrary. I want to
express NOBODY has the right to hurt/kill another (innocent) people, even
maybe he is fighting in a holy war for a godness or an idea even if that idea may be
acceptable (e. g. democracy, which is not equal to the American style of
life from my point of view).

Ignoring this, violence could extend with extreme speed as the another
party think: "I strike only back as I was attacked innocently".

I hope I could express myself in a right way.

Regards,

Imre


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On Thu, 13 Sep 2001, Mike Kendall wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> > {Original Message removed}

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