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'[PICLIST] +AFs-OT+AF0- How to make PCB at home?'
2000\10\12@125329 by Lawrence Lile

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I had to modify the plotter by drilling out an old plotter pen (a messy
job - ink goes everywhere) to the right diameter to fit my +ACM-313 (not +ACM-318)
lumocolor pen.  That part wasn't too hard.  Also had to hack out a big part
of the case to allow the pen to travel.  Also not too hard.  Used an HP pen
plotter. Search the piclist archives and yoiu'll find a long description of
several people's trials and tribulations with pen plotting PC boards.

The results on a pen plotter were never very consistent, and I finally
abandoned it in favor of photoplotting methods.  Pens can skip, run out of
ink,  or the nib busts off when they run off the edge of a thick piece of
paper, etc. etc.  Also have a finite limit on line size the same as the pen,
maybe 0.020+ACI-?? I forget.  Not really very fine.

You avoid having a UV light and a pan of chemicals for photoplotting, but
these are not hard to get and not too much trouble.  I'd recommend against
the pen plotter idea having done it.

-- Lawrence Lile


----- Original Message -----
From: +ACI-Maxime Prati+ACI- +ADw-mprati+AEA-postech.ca+AD4-
To: +ACI-'Lawrence Lile'+ACI- +ADw-llile+AEA-toastmaster.com+AD4-
Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2000 11:21 AM
Subject: RE: +AFs-OT+AF0- How to make PCB at home?


+AD4- Hi +ACE-
+AD4-
+AD4- I'm in the process to pen plotter with my Roland plotter my own pc
board...
+AD4-
+AD4- Did you put a +ACM-318 lumocolor pen on your plotter ? How did you do that ?
+AD4- Did you like the results ?
+AD4-
+AD4- I'd like to have some hints to help me in my project.
+AD4-
+AD4- Thank you very much
+AD4-
+AD4-
+AD4-
+AD4- +ACI-Eagles soar, but weasels never get sucked into jet engines.+ACI-
+AD4-
+AD4- Maxime Prati
+AD4- Embedded Systems Development
+AD4- Position Technology
+AD4- http://www.postech.ca
+AD4- mprati+AEA-postech.ca
+AD4-
+AD4- +AD4- {Original Message removed}

2000\10\12@142430 by Dale Botkin

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On Thu, 12 Oct 2000, Lawrence Lile wrote:

> I had to modify the plotter by drilling out an old plotter pen (a messy
> job - ink goes everywhere) to the right diameter to fit my +ACM-313 (not +ACM-318)
> lumocolor pen.  That part wasn't too hard.  Also had to hack out a big part
> of the case to allow the pen to travel.  Also not too hard.  Used an HP pen
> plotter. Search the piclist archives and yoiu'll find a long description of
> several people's trials and tribulations with pen plotting PC boards.
>
> The results on a pen plotter were never very consistent, and I finally
> abandoned it in favor of photoplotting methods.  Pens can skip, run out of
> ink,  or the nib busts off when they run off the edge of a thick piece of
> paper, etc. etc.  Also have a finite limit on line size the same as the pen,
> maybe 0.020+ACI-?? I forget.  Not really very fine.
>
> You avoid having a UV light and a pan of chemicals for photoplotting, but
> these are not hard to get and not too much trouble.  I'd recommend against
> the pen plotter idea having done it.

I dunno, I had pretty good luck with it.  I used a permanent-ink art store
pen with fiber tip, it was a .5mm (don't remember the brand, but there are
plenty).  HP plotter (7474?) wearing IBM logo, no mods to the plotter
other than leaving the pen cover up and manually loading the pen.  I set
the plot speed down to 1 in/sec and let it go.  Did have to tape the PCB
material to paper, the plotter would not move the fiberglass reliably.
I'd still be doing it if 90% of my stuff didn't need to be double sided.

Dale
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discoveries, is not "Eureka!" (I found it!) but "That's funny ..."
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2000\10\12@142846 by David VanHorn

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One approach that always intrigued me, was to plot directly onto the PCB
material using a UV light through a fiber.  I've never tried it, but it
seems reasonable that it would work.

Exposure time would be controlled by pen speed, but I'm not sure how much
power you'd need down the pipe to make it work..

Same basic technique though, put the fiber down an old pen (ink type, with
metal nib) and have at it.

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2000\10\12@143435 by Dale Botkin

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On Thu, 12 Oct 2000, David VanHorn wrote:

> One approach that always intrigued me, was to plot directly onto the PCB
> material using a UV light through a fiber.  I've never tried it, but it
> seems reasonable that it would work.
>
> Exposure time would be controlled by pen speed, but I'm not sure how much
> power you'd need down the pipe to make it work..
>
> Same basic technique though, put the fiber down an old pen (ink type, with
> metal nib) and have at it.

Interesting thought...  roll-your-own Gerber photoplotter, eh?  Given the
diameter of the average fiber, a larger pad could take a while to plot,
though.  Wonder if it's practical?

Dale
---
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discoveries, is not "Eureka!" (I found it!) but "That's funny ..."
               -- Isaac Asimov

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2000\10\12@143843 by David VanHorn

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>
>Interesting thought...  roll-your-own Gerber photoplotter, eh?  Given the
>diameter of the average fiber, a larger pad could take a while to plot,
>though.  Wonder if it's practical?

Better than gerber, it's "Direct to PCB", making your audio amplifier sound
more lifelike than you ever dreamed it could, by eliminating distortions
caused by the intermediate processes. :)

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2000\10\12@192211 by Sean H. Breheny

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Do they have fiber for UV? AFAIK, normal glass blocks UV, I don't know
about plastics and other materials typically used in cheap fiber, though.

Sean

At 01:26 PM 10/12/00 -0500, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2000\10\12@192828 by David VanHorn

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At 07:22 PM 10/12/00 -0400, Sean H. Breheny wrote:
>Do they have fiber for UV? AFAIK, normal glass blocks UV, I don't know
>about plastics and other materials typically used in cheap fiber, though.

Quartz fiber should pass it.

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2000\10\12@202310 by Alice Campbell

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UV spectroscopists use quartz cuvettes. some glass will pass
some UV, but quartz is better

alice

{Quote hidden}

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2000\10\13@050059 by mike

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On Thu, 12 Oct 2000 13:33:37 -0500, you wrote:

>On Thu, 12 Oct 2000, David VanHorn wrote:
>
>> One approach that always intrigued me, was to plot directly onto the PCB
>> material using a UV light through a fiber.  I've never tried it, but it
>> seems reasonable that it would work.
>>
>> Exposure time would be controlled by pen speed, but I'm not sure how much
>> power you'd need down the pipe to make it work..
>>
>> Same basic technique though, put the fiber down an old pen (ink type, with
>> metal nib) and have at it.
>
>Interesting thought...  roll-your-own Gerber photoplotter, eh?  Given the
>diameter of the average fiber, a larger pad could take a while to plot,
>though.  Wonder if it's practical?
It has been done, although the version I saw was for plotting on film.
Used a very powerful UV lamp and special quartz fibre.
Problem is most photo PCB is positive, so light plotting wouldn't be
easy. However you can now get UV LEDs.....

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'[EE]: +AFs-OT+AF0- How to make PCB at home?'
2000\10\13@053238 by Bill Westfield

face picon face
   Speaking of "Direct to PCB", I haven't seen anyone in this thread
   mention a proper PCB prototyping (CNC) mill, the prices are coming down
   all the time, shareware software is getting more common, and
   most of us have the skills to build one of these in our spare time.

Anybody got leads on a used ttech or lpkf mill?  What's this shareware
software you're talking about - generalized CNC mill stuff, or specifically
for PCBs?

Thanks
Bill W

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'[PICLIST] +AFs-OT+AF0- How to make PCB at home?'
2000\10\13@091840 by Peter L. Peres

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>optical fiber plotter

The only snag I can see is that the UV grade fiber and optics will be so
expensive for most people to get, it would equal 10 PCB house
prototype orders, at a minimum, or the price of a complete PCB etch kit
(through hole, plated !) plus some CAD software, and good stand drill
thrown in for balance. Afaik a UV lamp + fiber set starts at about $2200.

And no, you can't improvise. Normal lens glass attenuates UV to such a
point as to be useless. I think that silicon manufacturing uses a special
atmosphere when exposing with UV (oxygen and nitrogen(?) absorb UV). They
also use reflectors (mirrors) and not lenses to focus an image.

There is also the matter of adjustment which requires a CCTV camera (can't
see UV, and you DON'T WANT to see it).

Peter

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2000\10\13@094524 by M. Adam Davis

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David VanHorn wrote:
> Quartz fiber should pass it.

Quartz fiber should be /expen$ive/.

-Adam

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2000\10\13@094934 by M. Adam Davis

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Mike Harrison wrote:
> However you can now get UV LEDs.....

So all you need to do now is find an OKI LED page printer, replace the array of
LEDs with the UV leds, modify the printer to accept the clearance of a pcb
(maybe slow down the motors) and rip out all the toner and transfer drum stuff.

Then you can pass a pre-sensitized PCB right through it, develop and etch.
Could probably even make a developer rinse and etch bath system right after the
printer and have PCB process nearly automatic.

-Adam

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2000\10\13@100233 by Andrew Kunz

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I would mount the LED inside the pen, and use the metal tube that used to house
the felt/fibers as a sort of collimater and conduit, dispensing with the need
for quartz crystals.









"M. Adam Davis" <RemoveMEadavisspam_OUTspamKILLspamUBASICS.COM> on 10/13/2000 09:49:17 AM

Please respond to pic microcontroller discussion list <RemoveMEPICLISTTakeThisOuTspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>








To:      EraseMEPICLISTspamspamspamBeGoneMITVMA.MIT.EDU

cc:      (bcc: Andrew Kunz/TDI_NOTES)



Subject: Re: +AFs-OT+AF0- How to make PCB at home?








Mike Harrison wrote:
> However you can now get UV LEDs.....

So all you need to do now is find an OKI LED page printer, replace the array of
LEDs with the UV leds, modify the printer to accept the clearance of a pcb
(maybe slow down the motors) and rip out all the toner and transfer drum stuff.

Then you can pass a pre-sensitized PCB right through it, develop and etch.
Could probably even make a developer rinse and etch bath system right after the
printer and have PCB process nearly automatic.

-Adam

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2000\10\13@100439 by Ricardo Seixas

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UV Plotter?
Take a look at www.megaelect.demon.co.uk/plotting_systems.html
But... not cheap 2000 Pounds !!!

I was thinking in hacking my deskjet to feed a board instead of the paper,
then print directly to the pre-sensitive board and expose to UV.
I guess that the board must have some kind of 'texture' to hold the ink in
place
maybe 'sugar and water' ?
With this method I think we can achieve a good resolution with standard ink.
Humm!!! eBay... :)



{Quote hidden}

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2000\10\13@111737 by dre Domingos F. Souza

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>I was thinking in hacking my deskjet to feed a board instead of the paper,
>then print directly to the pre-sensitive board and expose to UV.
>I guess that the board must have some kind of 'texture' to hold the ink in
>place
>maybe 'sugar and water' ?
>With this method I think we can achieve a good resolution with standard ink.
>Humm!!! eBay... :)

       It would be nice. But ink needs a rough surface to stick to. It's the same of using a non-inkjet transparency - the ink cloggs as small droplets in the printing, and does not dry (what a mess!!!). It's better to print in the transparency and use it to burn the board.


--------------8<-------Corte aqui-------8<--------------

       All the best!!!
       Alexandre Souza
       EraseMExandinhospamEraseMEinterlink.com.br

--------------8<-------Corte aqui-------8<--------------

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2000\10\13@115307 by Ricardo Seixas

picon face
At 13:18 13/10/00, you wrote:
> >I was thinking in hacking my deskjet to feed a board instead of the paper,
> >then print directly to the pre-sensitive board and expose to UV.
> >I guess that the board must have some kind of 'texture' to hold the ink in
> >place
> >maybe 'sugar and water' ?
> >With this method I think we can achieve a good resolution with standard ink.
> >Humm!!! eBay... :)
>
>         It would be nice. But ink needs a rough surface to stick to. It's
> the same of using a non-inkjet transparency - the ink cloggs as small
> droplets in the printing, and does not dry (what a mess!!!). It's better
> to print in the transparency and use it to burn the board.

Transparency is exactly the step I'm trying to avoid, the idea is
print,burn,develop and etch.
Anyone knows from what is made that rough surface on inkjet transparences,
I know that it's water soluble :)


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2000\10\13@130344 by Bill Westfield

face picon face
Photoresists are sensitive (I thin) to NEAR ultraviolet, which is less
dangerous and more compatible with standard optics than the shorter
wavelengths.  Presumably some are "somewhat sensitive" to visible light, and
one of the current crop of high-intensity blue LEDs might be interesting to
experiment with.  (white LEDs, as I understand them, are basically a blue
emitter with some blue-stimulated wide spectrum phosphors in front, so
they're likely to be less useful than the bare blue LED...)

Note that optical storage is extremely likely to drive the technology toward
lasers in shorter wavelengths becomming rather common.  If your circuit
board happens to look like a DVD, you ought to be in fat city :-)

BillW

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2000\10\13@134508 by Bill Westfield

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   I was thinking in hacking my deskjet to feed a board instead of the
   paper, then print directly to the pre-sensitive board and expose to
   UV.  I guess that the board must have some kind of 'texture' to hold
   the ink in place maybe 'sugar and water' ?

Hmm.  I never thought of printing with (water soluble) inkjet ink ON
TOP OF photoresist just to block light during exposure (and then
develop normally and use the photoresist to act as the actual etchant
resist, with the inkjet ink washing off "sometime" in there.)  But I
don't see any reason that this wouldn't work.

I've been playing with a CuCl based etchant described at
http://www.dnai.com/~rexa/Projects/CuCl_ech.html I started with some
drugstore (3%) H2O2, pool acid and come copper wire, and I now have a
solution that will disolve 14g solid copper wire "overnight", which is
pretty cool (considering you get MORE of it than you start with :-)

BillW

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2000\10\14@122059 by Scott Stephens

picon face
>all the time, shareware software is getting more common, and
>most of us have the skills to build one of these in our spare time.


If you have at least 50 hours (if you know what your doing)...

>I have one about half built, with 200 steps/mm resolution and
>10mm/sec (yep I know its slow). Anyone else working on something
>like this?

I built one, and it slow untill I finish the high-power controller (12"/m).
Seperate X & Y axis, with a Dremel on the X/Z axis. I bought McMaster Carr
precision lead screw and anti-backlash nuts (that fiberglass dust will chew
up real quick) but still only get around 5mil accuracy when I thought I
would get 1.

I wouldn't think you could route boards unless your board stock is 'very'
flat, or you have a sensor on the tool-head (what a concept?).

Who has/wants a chopping PIC stepper controller?

Some additional web sites I like:
http://hometown.aol.com/drigotti/HobbyCNC.htm
http://www.linuxcnc.org/links.html
http://hometown.aol.com/drigotti/HobbyCNC.htm

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2000\10\14@124003 by David VanHorn

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>
>I built one, and it slow untill I finish the high-power controller (12"/m).
>Seperate X & Y axis, with a Dremel on the X/Z axis. I bought McMaster Carr
>precision lead screw and anti-backlash nuts (that fiberglass dust will chew
>up real quick) but still only get around 5mil accuracy when I thought I
>would get 1.

How are you measuring this?  My board shop only promises 5 mil accuracy on
holes, though they usually deliver better.


>I wouldn't think you could route boards unless your board stock is 'very'
>flat, or you have a sensor on the tool-head (what a concept?).


Drill a bunch of holes in the platform, make a plenum, and attach shop-vac.
Instant flat board. (At least, as flat as the platform)


>Who has/wants a chopping PIC stepper controller?

PBL3717 is easy to drive, 1A output. I've used these with "5V" motors from
a 24V supply.

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2000\10\15@061827 by staff
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Scott Stephens wrote:
>
> >all the time, shareware software is getting more common, and
> >most of us have the skills to build one of these in our spare time.
>
> If you have at least 50 hours (if you know what your doing)...

       Taken me more than that so far, but I have been "developing"
if you get that. I have a few projects coming down the line in
future with this stuff so I will keep plodding along. Definitely
not a weekend project though! :o)

{Quote hidden}

       I looked at leadscrew stuff, but chose the other approach of
using simple 1mm pitch (x7mm diam) threaded rod. This is slower than the
leadscrew but much more rigid. Threaded rods are cut fairly precise,
and using long "nuts" gives some averaging, so it works out quite nice.
Just need steppers and drivers good for 2000 steps/sec to give 10mm/sec.


> I wouldn't think you could route boards unless your board stock is 'very'
> flat, or you have a sensor on the tool-head (what a concept?).

       From what I have seen, some of the board routers/track cutters use
a simple roller (like a caster) on the cutting head. This clamps the
board down and gives the ability to cut fine grooves at a precise depth.
I like this system, just use a solid alloy plate (10mm or 16mm) and cut
on top of that.

> Who has/wants a chopping PIC stepper controller?

       I'm curious, but I have nice big linear cc supplies built and I
kinda liek them! :o)

> Some additional web sites I like:
> http://hometown.aol.com/drigotti/HobbyCNC.htm
> http://www.linuxcnc.org/links.html

       Thanks, all links are good links!
-Roman

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2000\10\16@014343 by Scott Stephens

picon face
>Scott Stephens wrote:

>> If you have at least 50 hours (if you know what your doing)...

>        Taken me more than that so far, but I have been "developing"
>if you get that. I have a few projects coming down the line in
>future with this stuff so I will keep plodding along. Definitely
>not a weekend project though! :o)

I've probably spent 100 over the last few months, including fooling around
with old PC's. I found one secret was you can't use over 1/8" thick aluminum
for nylon bushing mounts with 1/2" Thompson rod and around 6" spacing. It is
mechanicaly unstable, and hangs. I now have an appreciation for mechanical
engineers. An engineer I worked with at an ultrasonic scanner company tipped
me off that those systems need to be 'tuned' like electronics.

Unless you need 'lots' of holes drilled quick, its really too much trouble
for a hobby. I could have drilled stacks of boards in the time I've spent.
But I don't want to be deterred from making  plenty of fast modifications
for developing prototypes. Besides one day I'll EDM a red hot, conductive
ceramic and be the first with an axial-flow model turbojet 8^)

>        I looked at leadscrew stuff, but chose the other approach of
>using simple 1mm pitch (x7mm diam) threaded rod. This is slower than the
>leadscrew but much more rigid.

Oh my, and I'm whinning about the speed with a 1" pitch screw. I recently
got a Wholesale Tool catalog and saw ACME rod & nuts for 1/10 the price I
paid, and wished I had made my own anti-backlash nut(s), because I know I'm
gonna be changing them often.

I rely on Thomson Rods for stiffness. But 2 -1/2" x 24" is not stiff enough.
I wish I used 1" or took the time to calculate the beam deflections rather
than looking at a printer and guessing I could just go a size or two up.
Fortunately there is no torsion load on the x-axis (unless I try milling).


>Just need steppers and drivers good for 2000 steps/sec to give 10mm/sec.

You are in no hurry. My motors are rated to 600 pulses/second so I expected
up to a couple inches/second. I think you'll regret the wait, especialy if
you find you need to baby sit the damn bot like I do.

>        From what I have seen, some of the board routers/track cutters use
>a simple roller (like a caster) on the cutting head.

Why didn't I think of that? I would still need to modify the software, and
use an encoder. Last time I drilled holes the Z-axis must of hung in a hole
because it lost counts.

I put LED's on the stepper outputs and noticed the Dremel tool put horrible
horrible line noise that caused false stepping. But I expected it and was
watching for it.

>> Who has/wants a chopping PIC stepper controller?

>        I'm curious, but I have nice big linear cc supplies built and I
>kinda liek them! :o)

Do you need a fan to cool them? A power supply 4 times the size you would
otherwise need? I like PIC's too much.

BTW I've collected lots of app notes on steppers, drivers and mech design
stuff. If anyone is interested I can E-mail them megs of files or dig up the
web sites.

Scott

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