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'[PIC]meaning of /sp suffix?'
2003\02\27@005902 by Phil

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Hello All,

Although I have yet to try my hand at any PIC programming I have found a
project that I want to build. It specifies a 16F876-20/P PIC. I have found a
supplier who stocks PICs with a /SP and /SO suffixes but not /P. Is the
suffix important? I don't want to find a surface mount device in my letter
box.

This question might be a little bit more difficult to answer. I have a circuit
for a serial programmer that consists of only a few diodes and little else.
Apparently it works well with 16C84 PICs. Is this programmer likely to work
with 16F876 PICs or should I look for another circuit?

What ever programmer I use must be a serial port programmer (lead lengths are
apparently a problem with parallel port programmers) and the programming
software must work under linux.

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2003\02\27@013034 by Daniel Imfeld

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/SP means skinny DIP.  /SO is SOIC I believe, so you probbly wouldn't
want that.  At the end of the data sheet for each processor, there is a
section on Packaging Information, and you can look at the example
packages to see what each suffix stands for.  As for your other
question, I'll defer to the other members of the list.

Daniel Imfeld

---- Original Message ----
From: "Phil" <.....philKILLspamspam@spam@SPIDERWEB.COM.AU>
To: <PICLISTspamKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2003 5:46 PM
Subject: [PICLIST] [PIC]meaning of /sp suffix?

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2003\02\27@013430 by Ned Konz

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On Tuesday 25 February 2003 05:46 pm, Phil wrote:
> Hello All,
>
> Although I have yet to try my hand at any PIC programming I have
> found a project that I want to build. It specifies a 16F876-20/P
> PIC. I have found a supplier who stocks PICs with a /SP and /SO
> suffixes but not /P. Is the suffix important? I don't want to find
> a surface mount device in my letter box.

The /P is a DIP, and the /SP is a skinny (0.3" wide) DIP. I don't
think they make the 16F876/P. They do make a 16F877/P, which is a
40-pin DIP.

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2003\02\27@021100 by Wouter van Ooijen

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> Is the
> suffix important? I don't want to find a surface mount device
> in my letter box.

You gave the answer :)

> Apparently it works well with 16C84 PICs. Is this programmer
> likely to work
> with 16F876 PICs or should I look for another circuit?

Likely yes, but not fully sure. The algorithm is the same, but the PC
software must cope with the larger chip. And do pull LVP low! Note: no
chance with the -A version!

> What ever programmer I use must be a serial port programmer
> (lead lengths are
> apparently a problem with parallel port programmers) and the
> programming
> software must work under linux.

Ever looked at http://www.voti.nl/wisp628 ? Build it yourself (you will
need to program a 16F628), or buy a kit. The xwisp software works on
Linux (requires are recent python, but that is in every recent Linux
distribution).

Wouter van Ooijen

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2003\02\28@053204 by Phil

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On Thu, 27 Feb 2003 04:17 pm, you wrote:
> /SP means skinny DIP.  /SO is SOIC I believe, so you probbly wouldn't
> want that.  At the end of the data sheet for each processor, there is a
> section on Packaging Information, and you can look at the example
> packages to see what each suffix stands for.

Thanks Daniel I should have thought of looking at Microchips web site myself.
Maybe there is another PIC that has the same specs as the 16F876 but is
available in a standard DIP package?

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2003\02\28@053209 by Phil

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On Thu, 27 Feb 2003 04:32 pm, you wrote:
>
> The /P is a DIP, and the /SP is a skinny (0.3" wide) DIP. I don't
> think they make the 16F876/P. They do make a 16F877/P, which is a
> 40-pin DIP.

Thanks for the information Ned. Maybe I could use the 16F877/P PIC instead
because I would rather use a standard socket in the programmer. Is there any
major difference between the 877 and  876 PICs?

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2003\02\28@053214 by Phil

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On Thu, 27 Feb 2003 05:09 pm, you wrote:

> > Apparently it works well with 16C84 PICs. Is this programmer
> > likely to work
> > with 16F876 PICs or should I look for another circuit?
>
> Likely yes, but not fully sure. The algorithm is the same, but the PC
> software must cope with the larger chip. And do pull LVP low! Note: no
> chance with the -A version!
>

> Ever looked at http://www.voti.nl/wisp628 ? Build it yourself (you will
> need to program a 16F628), or buy a kit. The xwisp software works on
> Linux (requires are recent python, but that is in every recent Linux
> distribution).
>

Thank you for the reply Wouter.

I had a look at the site (it's yours isn't it?) some time ago but I seem to
remember that there was sort of issue with linux.

The site is in my bookmark list, so I'll have another look.

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2003\02\28@055452 by hael Rigby-Jones

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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Phil [SMTP:KILLspamphilKILLspamspamSPIDERWEB.COM.AU]
> Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 6:41 AM
> To:   RemoveMEPICLISTTakeThisOuTspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject:      Re: [PIC]meaning of /sp suffix?
>
> On Thu, 27 Feb 2003 04:32 pm, you wrote:
> >
> > The /P is a DIP, and the /SP is a skinny (0.3" wide) DIP. I don't
> > think they make the 16F876/P. They do make a 16F877/P, which is a
> > 40-pin DIP.
>
> Thanks for the information Ned. Maybe I could use the 16F877/P PIC instead
> because I would rather use a standard socket in the programmer. Is there
> any
> major difference between the 877 and  876 PICs?
>
12 pins difference in the DIP packages is fairly major... :o)

Mike


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2003\02\28@070702 by Wouter van Ooijen

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> Is there any
> major difference between the 877 and  876 PICs?

A lot of IO pins. No other differences.

Wouter van Ooijen

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2003\02\28@070705 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> I had a look at the site (it's yours isn't it?) some time ago
> but I seem to
> remember that there was sort of issue with linux.

Yes it is mine. And this ussue with Linux is that xisp does run on it
(provided you have a recent python installed, but that is part of all
recent distributions, otherwise you can probably download it).

Wouter van Ooijen

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2003\02\28@074817 by Ian McLean

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The difference between the two is two extra ports (D & E) on the f877.  The
f876 is missing the extra 3 A/D lines on the 3 bit port E (so only has 5
channel AD instead of 8 channel), and the Parallel Slave Port on the 8 bit
Port D, and that is about that.

Why avoid the f876 ?  It is a skinny DIP, but still a "standard" DIP package
so to speak.  Sockets are easily obtainable, just narrower, and used exactly
the same way.

{Original Message removed}

2003\02\28@082434 by Andrew Kieran

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The best socket to use for a PIC programmer is a "universal ZIF' socket.  'Universal' refers to it's
ability to accommodate both DIP formats.  The .3" 'skinny' DIP package uses the same spacing
as regular 14 pin DIPs; but for 24 and 28 pin devices (which usually are wider).

'ZIF' refers to 'zero insertion force' which means thats chip can easily be inserted and removed
from the socket, as is required for programming.

Andrew


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---- On    , Ian McLean (TakeThisOuTianmcleanEraseMEspamspam_OUTOPTUSHOME.COM.AU) wrote:

> The difference between the two is two extra ports (D & E) on the f877.  The
> f876 is missing the extra 3 A/D lines on the 3 bit port E (so only has 5
> channel AD instead of 8 channel), and the Parallel Slave Port on the 8 bit
> Port D, and that is about that.
>
> Why avoid the f876 ?  It is a skinny DIP, but still a "standard" DIP package
> so to speak.  Sockets are easily obtainable, just narrower, and used exactly
> the same way.
>
> {Original Message removed}

2003\02\28@083112 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> The best socket to use for a PIC programmer is a "universal
> ZIF' socket.

IMHO the best socket for a PIC programmer is no socket. Unless you
develop with EPROM PICs ICSP is much easier...

Wouter van Ooijen

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2003\02\28@084304 by Ian McLean

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If only Microchip would turn the LVP fuse ON by default, I would NEVER use a
socket to program a PIC, only ever ICSP.  Unfortunately, the first burn
usually does have to be done in a socket.

Rgs
Ian

{Original Message removed}

2003\02\28@084717 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> If only Microchip would turn the LVP fuse ON by default, I
> would NEVER use a
> socket to program a PIC, only ever ICSP.  Unfortunately, the
> first burn
> usually does have to be done in a socket.

Why? My programmer has a dedicated line to the target that pulls the LVP
pin down during reset. Now if Microchip could make up their mind about
which pin should have the LVP function, I would not need those damn
diodes to every possible LVP pin!

Wouter van Ooijen

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2003\02\28@084720 by Spehro Pefhany

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At 02:30 PM 2/28/2003 +0100, you wrote:
> > The best socket to use for a PIC programmer is a "universal
> > ZIF' socket.
>
>IMHO the best socket for a PIC programmer is no socket. Unless you
>develop with EPROM PICs ICSP is much easier...

What's the usual connector? Single row 0.1" header? RJ45 is kind of big.

Best regards,

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2003\02\28@090323 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> >IMHO the best socket for a PIC programmer is no socket. Unless you
> >develop with EPROM PICs ICSP is much easier...
>
> What's the usual connector? Single row 0.1" header? RJ45 is
> kind of big.

My programmer has a DB15f, only pins 1..8 used (so it fits 'edge' style
to a single-sided PCB). I often use the DB15m-to-2x8 female pinheader
cables that can be found in old PCs (game port) to connect to a 2x8 pin
row on the target (one pin removed as slot). But for DIP targets I
prefer a DIP test clip! And for solderless breadboards just wires.

Wouter van Ooijen

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2003\02\28@090729 by hael Rigby-Jones

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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ian McLean [SMTP:ianmcleanEraseMEspam.....OPTUSHOME.COM.AU]
> Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 1:41 PM
> To:   EraseMEPICLISTspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject:      Re: [PIC]meaning of /sp suffix?
>
> If only Microchip would turn the LVP fuse ON by default, I would NEVER use
> a
> socket to program a PIC, only ever ICSP.  Unfortunately, the first burn
> usually does have to be done in a socket.
>
> Rgs
> Ian
>
LVP is enabled by default in all the PIC's I've used, which ones don't have
it enabled from the factory?

Mike


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2003\02\28@105545 by michael brown

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Andrew Kieran wrote:
> The best socket to use for a PIC programmer is a "universal ZIF'
> socket.  'Universal' refers to it's ability to accommodate both DIP
> formats.  The .3" 'skinny' DIP package uses the same spacing as
> regular 14 pin DIPs; but for 24 and 28 pin devices (which usually are
> wider).
>
> 'ZIF' refers to 'zero insertion force' which means thats chip can
> easily be inserted and removed from the socket, as is required for
> programming.
>
> Andrew

That's exactly what I installed into my programmer.  If nothing else, it
makes for easier insertion of the PIC since you have much more latteral
room.  It cost me about US$15.00, but it was wellllllll worth it.  ;-)

michael brown

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2003\02\28@230903 by Dwayne Reid

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At 04:37 PM 2/28/03 +1000, Phil wrote:

>Thanks Daniel I should have thought of looking at Microchips web site myself.
>Maybe there is another PIC that has the same specs as the 16F876 but is
>available in a standard DIP package?

The '876 is in a standard DIP package: 28 pins consisting of 2 rows of 14
pins each on 0.3" centers.  No problem finding sockets: if you can't find a
28 pin 0.3" socket, just use 2- standard 14 pin sockets fitted end-to-end.

dwayne

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2003\02\28@230913 by Dwayne Reid

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At 04:41 PM 2/28/03 +1000, Phil wrote:

>Thanks for the information Ned. Maybe I could use the 16F877/P PIC instead
>because I would rather use a standard socket in the programmer. Is there any
>major difference between the 877 and  876 PICs?

Time to for someone to step in and say: RTFM!

'876: 28 pins, ports D & E missing
'877: 40 pins

dwayne

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2003\02\28@230919 by Dwayne Reid

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At 12:41 AM 3/1/03 +1100, Ian McLean wrote:
>If only Microchip would turn the LVP fuse ON by default, I would NEVER use a
>socket to program a PIC, only ever ICSP.  Unfortunately, the first burn
>usually does have to be done in a socket.

It is on by default.  That is the main reason so many people have had
problems when starting with the new flash devices for the first time.

dwayne

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