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PICList Thread
'[PIC] pickit2 vs icd2'
2007\11\27@042425 by Tamas Rudnai

face picon face
Hi Tino,

(Just realised there were no PIC tag so just added and hopefully more people
will see this thread)

In my understanding there were two conclusions on that thread:

1. PicKit2 is better programmer than ICD2 - still not a production
programmer though
2. PicKit2 getting better and better on debugging capabilities and is quite
comparable to ICD2 right now - still does not (and probably never will be)
like ICE.

There were one more conclusion - i think it was on another thread: Some
people believes that the original ICD2 not as good as some clones.Side note:
There are PicKit2 clones as well that they have ICD2 connectors, ZIF
sockets, external power connectors etc - don't know if they were any batter
than the original hardware? Also as I assume PicKit2 debugee works on MPLAB
only at the moment, while ICD2 works with Linux/GNU tools as well.

Tamas


{Quote hidden}

www.piclist.com/techref/postbot.asp?by=thread&id=%5BPIC%5D+PICkit+2+vs+ICD2&w=body&tgt=post
<www.piclist.com/techref/postbot.asp?by=thread&id=%5BPIC%5D+PICkit+2+vs+ICD2&w=body&tgt=post>
> >
> > Tamas
> >
> > >
> > > On Nov 27, 2007 7:14 AM, tinu b <spam_OUTtinu.piclistTakeThisOuTspamgmail.com> wrote:
> > > i'm sure this has been discussed here, but i must have overread it and
> > > cannot find it now:
> > >
> > > i was away from the pic front for some time, when i used to program
and
> > > debug my pic16 using icd1.
> > >
> > > i once bought an icd2, but haven't used it 'til now.
> > >
> > > so now, i'll try to go back to pics and i read that pickit2 is
required for
> > > debuggint pic16 and pic18, but i thought that pickit2 is aprogrammer
and
> > > icd2 is a debugger/programmer.
> > >
> > > can you tell me what's the difference between pickit2 and icd2 and
what the
> > > advantages and disadvantages are?
> > >
> > > thanks a lot!
> > > tino

2007\11\28@192621 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On Nov 27, 2007 5:24 PM, Tamas Rudnai <.....tamas.rudnaiKILLspamspam@spam@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Tino,
>
> (Just realised there were no PIC tag so just added and hopefully more people
> will see this thread)
>
> In my understanding there were two conclusions on that thread:
>
> 1. PicKit2 is better programmer than ICD2 - still not a production
> programmer though

One of the reasons why I say this is in the following thread.
http://forum.microchip.com/tm.aspx?m=277310

The other reason is that the connector is easier to use than ICD2's.

The third reason is that you do not need to change OS.

ICD2 is also said to have some grounding issues.

> 2. PicKit2 getting better and better on debugging capabilities and is quite
> comparable to ICD2 right now - still does not (and probably never will be)
> like ICE.

PICkit 2 is still lagging in terms of debugging capability . But Microchip is
working on it. Some debugging for PIC24F will be added in MPLAB 8.01
due out soon.
http://forum.microchip.com/tm.aspx?m=293750

Xiaofan

2007\11\29@143119 by Mark Rages

face picon face
On 11/27/07, Tamas Rudnai <tamas.rudnaispamKILLspamgmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Tino,
>
> (Just realised there were no PIC tag so just added and hopefully more people
> will see this thread)
>
> In my understanding there were two conclusions on that thread:
>
> 1. PicKit2 is better programmer than ICD2 - still not a production
> programmer though

Please explain what you mean by "production programmer".

Regards,
Mark
markrages@gmail
--
Mark Rages, Engineer
Midwest Telecine LLC
.....markragesKILLspamspam.....midwesttelecine.com

2007\11\29@151658 by wouter van ooijen

face picon face
> Please explain what you mean by "production programmer".

Microchip defines a production programmer as one that can read a PICs
content at the extremes of the to-be-expected Vdd voltages.

There is debate as to whether this realy has any technical merit with
modern PICs. For real production work that discussion is probably not
relevant because even if there is no technical merit there is probably a
legal need to follow Microchip's specs to the letter.

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu



2007\11\29@153703 by Mark Rages
face picon face
On 11/29/07, wouter van ooijen <EraseMEwouterspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTvoti.nl> wrote:
> > Please explain what you mean by "production programmer".
>
> Microchip defines a production programmer as one that can read a PICs
> content at the extremes of the to-be-expected Vdd voltages.
>

Where does Microchip define this?

Regards,
Mark
markrages@gmail
--
Mark Rages, Engineer
Midwest Telecine LLC
markragesspamspam_OUTmidwesttelecine.com

2007\11\29@163534 by wouter van ooijen

face picon face
> Where does Microchip define this?

Last time I read a programming specification it was there, often in a
colored box.

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu



2007\11\29@164856 by Mark Rages

face picon face
On 11/29/07, wouter van ooijen <@spam@wouterKILLspamspamvoti.nl> wrote:
> > Where does Microchip define this?
>
> Last time I read a programming specification it was there, often in a
> colored box.
>
> Wouter van Ooijen
>

Could you point me to an example, please?

Regards,
Mark
markrages@gmail
--
Mark Rages, Engineer
Midwest Telecine LLC
KILLspammarkragesKILLspamspammidwesttelecine.com

2007\11\29@171129 by Dario Greggio

face picon face
wouter van ooijen wrote:

> Last time I read a programming specification it was there, often in a
> colored box.

Yep, me too.


--
Ciao, Dario

2007\11\29@171203 by Funny NYPD

picon face
It is true, the production tool has better fixtures (which is professional and dedicated) and capability to contact Pins on PIC. (I was told so when I visited the distributor who supply our pre-programmed PIC18F458 and 4580, 4680 and 2550.)

It might have a higher yield and programming efficiency than regular design.

My personal opinion, ICD2 and PICKi2 is good enough with decent fixtures for small volume up to couple of thousands per run.

Funny N.
New Bedford, MA
http://www.AuElectronics.selfip.com



{Original Message removed}

2007\11\29@174343 by wouter van ooijen

face picon face
> > Last time I read a programming specification it was there,
> often in a
> > colored box.
>
> Yep, me too.

You were in a colored box too??

;)

But I checked a few recently printed programming specs and found
nothing. Maybe Microchip has removed the distinction.

> It is true, the production tool has better fixtures (which is
> professional and dedicated) and capability to contact Pins on
> PIC. (I was told so when I visited the distributor who supply
> our pre-programmed PIC18F458 and 4580, 4680 and 2550.)

That might be the case, but it has nothing to do with the way Microchip
distinguishes (or used to distinguish) between 'production' and
'prototype' programmers.

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu



2007\11\30@032757 by Dario Greggio

face picon face
wouter van ooijen wrote:

>>>Last time I read a programming specification it was there,
>>often in a colored box.
>>
>>Yep, me too.
>
> You were in a colored box too??
> ;)

Yeah, my car for istance :-)))


> But I checked a few recently printed programming specs and found
> nothing. Maybe Microchip has removed the distinction.

I remember having read it many times - Olin may confirm this as well.
But actually I did use my NoPPP programmer for years, and no chip had
any bad behaviour, imputable to not programming it according to those specs.
And of course my Programmer was not dealing with the full set of VCC and
else - I wanted to make it better, but then came PicKit 2 !

Might just have been a safety measure...

--
Ciao, Dario

2007\11\30@050816 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On Nov 30, 2007 5:48 AM, Mark Rages <RemoveMEmarkragesTakeThisOuTspamgmail.com> wrote:
> On 11/29/07, wouter van ooijen <spamBeGonewouterspamBeGonespamvoti.nl> wrote:
> > > Where does Microchip define this?
> >
> > Last time I read a programming specification it was there, often in a
> > colored box.
> >
> > Wouter van Ooijen
>
> Could you point me to an example, please?

All the "current" programming specifications are here.
http://www.microchip.com/stellent/idcplg?IdcService=SS_GET_PAGE&nodeId=1407

Some of the older one has the "gray color" box.
Example: 16F72
ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/DeviceDoc/39588a.pdf
Page 5:
Note: Any programmer not meeting this require-
ment may only be classified as a "proto-
type" or "development" programmer, but
not a "production quality" programmer.

Another example: for OTP
ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/DeviceDoc/30557g.pdf
Page 2.
Note: Any programmer not meeting the program-
mable VDD requirement and the verify at
VDDMAX and VDDMIN requirement, may
"development" programmer, but not a
production programmer.



Xiaofan

2007\11\30@051343 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On Nov 30, 2007 6:08 PM, Xiaofan Chen <TakeThisOuTxiaofancEraseMEspamspam_OUTgmail.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

I believe only some old generation of OTP PICs and
old Flash PICs (like 16F627/628 and 16F72) are using
some old Flash process (1.0u, 0.8u?) which may have
some reliability problem so that they call for verification
at Vddmax and Vddmin.

I think this is no longer an issue with later generation
of Flash PICs.

Xiaofan

2007\11\30@070313 by Bob Axtell

face picon face
Xiaofan Chen wrote:
{Quote hidden}

I believe this to be true as well.

--Bob A
> Xiaofan
>  


'[PIC] pickit2 vs icd2'
2007\12\03@122210 by Morgan Olsson
flavicon
face
Den 2007-11-29 21:16:49 skrev wouter van ooijen <RemoveMEwouterTakeThisOuTspamspamvoti.nl>:

>> Please explain what you mean by "production programmer".
>
> Microchip defines a production programmer as one that can read a PICs
> content at the extremes of the to-be-expected Vdd voltages.
>
> There is debate as to whether this realy has any technical merit with
> modern PICs. For real production work that discussion is probably not
> relevant because even if there is no technical merit there is probably a
> legal need to follow Microchip's specs to the letter.

In our current design the main PIC checks the whole program against a checksum at both extra high and extra low voltages at every boot.
The PIC have one port pin connected to the voltage regulator feedback by a R-C-R "T" so by setting that pin low or high the program can force over and under voltage.

Now, after beating it for months with incremental updates (tricky machinery...) it really *DO* detect checksum faults after programming now and then!
(It could also be the ICD2/PC/OS/driver as it is a bit quirky...)

--
Morgan Olsson


'[PIC] Pickit2 vs ICD2'
2008\05\27@032348 by Vitaliy
flavicon
face
Are there any advantages to using ICD2 instead of Pickit2, as far as
programming 24H/33F is concerned?

I noticed that in MPLAB, the "status light" for Pickit2 is yellow ("beta
support"). We've been using ICD2 almost exclusively (also PICStart for the
really low end devices), and although I bought a Pickit2 a while back, I
realized today that we don't have the ICSP/RJ11 adaptor, so I couldn't take
it for a test drive (adapter should be arriving in the mail shortly). Based
on what I've seen on Microchip's site, Pickit can do more than ICD2, while
it costs less.  Which doesn't make sense. :-S

Bonus question: how do the two compare to Real ICE, besides the programming
speed advantage?

Best regards,

Vitaliy

2008\05\27@065636 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 3:20 PM, Vitaliy <EraseMEspamspamspamspamBeGonemaksimov.org> wrote:
> Are there any advantages to using ICD2 instead of Pickit2, as far as
> programming 24H/33F is concerned?
>
> I noticed that in MPLAB, the "status light" for Pickit2 is yellow ("beta
> support"). We've been using ICD2 almost exclusively (also PICStart for the
> really low end devices), and although I bought a Pickit2 a while back, I
> realized today that we don't have the ICSP/RJ11 adaptor, so I couldn't take
> it for a test drive (adapter should be arriving in the mail shortly). Based
> on what I've seen on Microchip's site, Pickit can do more than ICD2, while
> it costs less.  Which doesn't make sense. :-S

It can do more in terms of programming. In terms of integration with MPLAB
and in terms of debugging, it still lags behind ICD2.

Some advantage for PICkit 2: more functionality than ICD2 in terms of
programming.
Reference: http://forum.microchip.com/tm.aspx?m=329594
One important feature that ICD2 does not have yet PICkit 2 has is the
ability to control the target power.

Some advantages for ICD2: better warrantee, better integration with MPLAB,
better debugging capability.

Some past threads:
http://forum.microchip.com/tm.aspx?m=335221
http://forum.microchip.com/tm.aspx?m=282776


> Bonus question: how do the two compare to Real ICE, besides the programming
> speed advantage?

In terms of debugging, Real ICE is way better than ICD2 and PICkit 2 for
bigger PICs/dsPICs/PIC32. ICD2 and PICkit 2 are both quite slow when
debugging PIC24/dsPIC33/PIC32.

Xiaofan

2008\05\27@074528 by Funny NYPD

picon face
Our BB0703 (PICkit 2) design can worked directly with boards designed for ICD2 without using an expensive '"converter".
It also has enhanced features, such as: dedicated power regulator circuit, etc.

Funny N.
Au Group Electronics, New Bedford, MA, http://www.AuElectronics.com



{Original Message removed}

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