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PICList Thread
'[PIC] ds30F demo program'
2005\08\21@182633 by John Nall

picon face
Back a number of days ago (before I accidentally got involved in the
emotionally wrenching experience of defending Richard Stallman and His
Cohorts, who I do not even happen to completely agree with) I seem to
remember someone posting a plaintive message to the effect that there is
very little information available on programming the ds30F family .  I
seem to remember that the specific complaint was that there was not even
a blink-an-led program available!  Probably true, although I have not
checked.  Searching the Internet for PIC information constitutes a march
through all recorded history, as someone far more articulate than I has
already pointed out.

I do not recall any replies to his or her query -- perhaps it was too
low-level.  After all, the I/O port structure has not changed (the TRISx
is still connected to the LATx is still connected to the PORTx, etc.)  
But the person who asked it was probably sincere, and deserved an
answer.  So while I won't respond to that specific question (although if
he or she is still around and wants such code, I'd be happy to send them
something that will do the trick) I will say that if they will go to
http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/DeviceDoc/70122b.pdf and get the
manual on the dsPICDEM starter board, there is a fairly good
demonstration program set out in it, in assembly language.  Reading the
demo program in detail is worthwhile.

That is a nice little board by the way.  I bought one.  I sure wish I
could enrich someone like Wouter rather than Microchip, but one has to
go where the product is.  (Is that a hint?  Yes, it is.  Sure would be
nice to see my Wisp628 able to handle a ds30F3013, too.  If someone
wants to update that sucker, I'd be happy to do the grunt work if you
would supply the expertise)..

John

2005\08\22@002353 by Chen Xiao Fan

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When I started to look at dsPIC end of last year, I did
complain the lack of demo programs. I since found quite
some including the demo board you mentioned. I even wanted
to build it by myself. But later I decided that maybe
a ARM LPC2xxx is a better option (Wouter's suggestion is
quite often great) for me later. Still I will look into
dsPIC since it is still easier than ARM, even small ARMs
like LPC2xxx requires much steeper learning curve than
dsPICs.

Microchip Forum is quite a good place to go to discuss
things like USB, dsPIC, CAN, C18, C30, ...
http://forum.microchip.com One needs to register though
before posting. In the C30 section and the dsPIC section,
there are quite some examples. There are also people
interested in Linux as well (maybe more than the people
in GNUPIC list).  Hitech PICC forum is another place to
go for things related to PICC/PICC18/dsPICC. Maybe PIClist
needs to catch up in these areas with more PIC tags
posts as well while keeping the good EE tags as well as
the sometimes interesting OT tag ... :)

The superusers there are very helpful. For one, Olin is there
as well. WH Tan is there. Ken and Bob Barr there are very
helpful as well (do not know if they are in this list or
not). Microchip employees are there as well.

Regards,
Xiaofan

{Original Message removed}

2005\08\22@020956 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> That is a nice little board by the way.  I bought one.  I sure wish I
> could enrich someone like Wouter rather than Microchip, but
> one has to
> go where the product is.  (Is that a hint?  Yes, it is.  Sure
> would be
> nice to see my Wisp628 able to handle a ds30F3013, too.  If someone
> wants to update that sucker, I'd be happy to do the grunt work if you
> would supply the expertise)..

I am certainly going that way, but 16F and 18F first.

One part of the grunt work is that debugging the programmer would
require a know-working blink-a-led program for every taget chip. My
blink-a-led page does not have any 30F's, so creating such programs
would do a favour to every starter.

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu



2005\08\22@052652 by Chen Xiao Fan

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But you have the ICD2, right? I think ICD2 is necessary for
anybody going to dsPIC or high-end 18F. Debugging without
an ICD2 may not be so easy with bigger programs. Of course,
I still would like the Wisp628 (or Wisp648, or Wisp2550 USB)
to support more PICs.

Regards,
Xiaofan

{Original Message removed}

2005\08\22@075548 by olin piclist

face picon face
Wouter van Ooijen wrote:
> One part of the grunt work is that debugging the programmer would
> require a know-working blink-a-led program for every taget chip.

Why?  I don't run code on the target PIC as part of testing a new
programming algorithm.  Maybe you think that's irresponsible, but don't see
how requiring code to run is relevant.  The job of a programmer is to get
the bits from the HEX file into the PIC.  The can be verified nicely without
requiring those bits to be a meaningful program and then running it.

Most of my testing is done with randomly generated patterns that fill all of
memory.  The WTEST command of TEST_PICPRG writes random values to a range of
memory, then reads back the range and verifies the values are correct.  I
use this and other tests to verify support of a new PIC, including creating
random values with the test program, using PIC_READ to make a HEX file,
PIC_PROG to write it to another chip, PIC_READ to read it back to a new HEX
file, then compare the two HEX files.  I don't see how running any of the
code would tell me anything new.


*****************************************************************
Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts
(978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com

2005\08\22@080535 by John Nall

picon face
Wouter van Ooijen wrote:

>One part of the grunt work is that debugging the programmer would
>require a know-working blink-a-led program for every taget chip. My
>blink-a-led page does not have any 30F's, so creating such programs
>would do a favour to every starter.
>  
>
Going to take me up on it, huh?  Well, I was serious.  I'll do a
blink-a-led program for the 3013 and send it to you.  The 3013 chip is
the only 30F chip that I have available, so will have to start there.

John

2005\08\22@081834 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> > One part of the grunt work is that debugging the programmer would
> > require a know-working blink-a-led program for every taget chip.
>
> Why?  I don't run code on the target PIC as part of testing a new
> programming algorithm.  Maybe you think that's irresponsible,
> but don't see how requiring code to run is relevant.

Hmmm. Maybe you are right to some extent. That is, after one program has
run correctly on a set of similar PICs. There are things that
writing/verifying random patterns won't catch, like errors in the
interpretation of the .hex file (generating the .hex file yourself would
not help, you could make the same error!).

But for newbies a set of blink-a-led files is certainly usefull, and it
is also usefull for me to convice a customer that the programming
process works for his particular PIC!

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2005\08\22@084533 by olin piclist

face picon face
Wouter van Ooijen wrote:
> There are things that
> writing/verifying random patterns won't catch, like errors in the
> interpretation of the .hex file (generating the .hex file yourself would
> not help, you could make the same error!).

Well yeah, but my HEX file I/O routines are independent of the programming
software and have been well tested on many HEX files for other PICs (and
things unrelated to PICs that use HEX files).  They are so far down in other
libraries that I don't even think of them as part of the PICPRG software,
although they do get called by it.  If I'm going to worry about that, I
would need to worry about all the low level routines the PICPRG software
relies on, like file I/O, system timer access, command line reading, file
name handling, string manipulation, etc, etc, etc.  At some point with any
application, you assume the independent low level libraries are working and
don't specifically test their function anymore.  Of course you do overall
testing on the app, and a bug in a low level generic function would likely
show up there, not to mention in a lot of other independent apps.

In the end there is no amount of testing that can prove an app is working.
You make a tradeoff by deciding what things to specifically test for and
what the general overall tests will be.  In my case, specifically testing
for correct HEX file reading/writing seems excessive when only making
incremental changes to a higher level app when the HEX file interface part
of the app hasn't changed either.  You have to draw the line somewhere.


*****************************************************************
Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts
(978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com

2005\08\24@101501 by Martin Klingensmith

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John Nall wrote:

{Quote hidden}

I would be glad to see my Wisp628 support a dsPIC eventually, even if it
is just one. I know many people say that you should have an ICD2 for a
dsPIC, but I can't see it being necessary to get started. Also, I just
don't have the money to allocate for an expensive "professional"
programmer or debugger right now. (text books and food first)

--
Martin Klingensmith

2005\08\24@180933 by John Nall

picon face
Wouter van Ooijen wrote:

>One part of the grunt work is that debugging the programmer would
>require a know-working blink-a-led program for every taget chip. My
>blink-a-led page does not have any 30F's, so creating such programs
>would do a favour to every starter.
>  
>

OK, here you go.  Sorry it took so long.  Doesn't take very long to
write a blink-a-led program, even if some things have changed with the
30F instruction set.  But it took a bit longer to figure out how the
timer on the 30F3013 works -- it is a bit different from the 18F452,
which is what I used before. :-)  Anyway, this one works fine on the
30F3013 running a 7.68 Mhz crystal and using the 4 x PLL option..  
Blinks an led on and off  at one-second intervals.  I have included the
source code -- not because I figure you want it, but because someone who
is just getting interested in the 30F family might find it useful.  And
yes, I KNOW I did not use good programming techniques --  this was quick
and dirty (but works).

John
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
:020000040000fa
:080000000001040000000000f3
:020000040000fa
:100200000f80200080ff2000000188000000000017
:100210004401020000000000d622ef00d222ef00cd
:10022000d422ef00f0ff2f0040158800d702a8006d
:100230002001020000000000d702aa00fcff3700e6
:1002400070102700100888000421ef000021ef0043
:100250000481a80004a1a8009580a80095a0a90089
:1002600095c0a9008460a9008c60a80005e1a800e1
:100270000140fe008c60a90005e1a9000000060015
:100280008460a900004006000000eb000007780031
:100290000c000900002f78000007eb0000000600aa
:020000040000fa
:0200000401f009
:04000000e5ff000018
:020000040000fa
:0200000401f009
:04000400ff7f00007a
:020000040000fa
:0200000401f009
:04000800eeff000007
:020000040000fa
:0200000401f009
:04001400ffff0000ea
:020000040000fa
:10000800520100005201000052010000520100009c
:10001800520100005201000052010000520100008c
:10002800520100005201000052010000400100008e
:10003800520100005201000052010000520100006c
:10004800520100005201000052010000520100005c
:10005800520100005201000052010000520100004c
:10006800520100005201000052010000520100003c
:10007800520100005201000052010000520100002c
:10008800520100005201000052010000520100001c
:10009800520100005201000052010000520100000c
:1000a80052010000520100005201000052010000fc
:1000b80052010000520100005201000052010000ec
:1000c80052010000520100005201000052010000dc
:1000d80052010000520100005201000052010000cc
:1000e80052010000520100005201000052010000bc
:0800f80052010000520100005a
:020000040000fa
:10010800520100005201000052010000520100009b
:10011800520100005201000052010000520100008b
:10012800520100005201000052010000400100008d
:10013800520100005201000052010000520100006b
:10014800520100005201000052010000520100005b
:10015800520100005201000052010000520100004b
:10016800520100005201000052010000520100003b
:10017800520100005201000052010000520100002b
:10018800520100005201000052010000520100001b
:10019800520100005201000052010000520100000b
:1001a80052010000520100005201000052010000fb
:1001b80052010000520100005201000052010000eb
:1001c80052010000520100005201000052010000db
:1001d80052010000520100005201000052010000cb
:1001e80052010000520100005201000052010000bb
:0801f800520100005201000059
:020000040000fa
:0402a000000000005a
:020000040000fa
:0402a4000000fe0058
:00000001FF
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
;     Source - assembled with MPASM, utilizing the files
;           included with MPLAB IDE 7.20
;
;     Blink an LED (attached to pin RD8)
;        Written specifically for ds30F3013 but will probably
;        work on other models of that family also with little change
required.                                    
;                                                                            
*
;    Other Files Required: p303013.gld,
p30f3013.inc                         *

       .equ __30F3013, 1
       .include "p30f3013.inc"

;..............................................................................
;Configuration bits:
;..............................................................................

       config __FOSC, CSW_FSCM_OFF & XT_PLL4    ;Turn off clock
switching and
                                           ;fail-safe clock monitoring and
                                           ;use the External Clock as the
                                           ;system clock with 4x PLL

       config __FWDT, WDT_OFF              ;Turn off Watchdog Timer

       config __FBORPOR, PBOR_ON & BORV_27 & PWRT_16 & MCLR_EN
                                           ;Set Brown-out Reset voltage and
                                           ;and set Power-up Timer to
16msecs
                                         
       config __FGS, CODE_PROT_OFF         ;Set Code Protection Off for
the
                                           ;General Segment

;..............................................................................
;Global Declarations:
;..............................................................................

       .global _wreg_init       ;Provide global scope to _wreg_init routine
                               
       .global __reset          ;The label for the first line of code.

       .global __T1Interrupt    ;Declare Timer 1 ISR name global


.text                             ;Start of Code section
__reset:
       MOV #__SP_init, W15       ;Initalize the Stack Pointer
       MOV #__SPLIM_init, W0     ;Initialize the Stack Pointer Limit
Register
       MOV W0, SPLIM
       NOP                       ;Add NOP to follow SPLIM initialization
     
       CALL _wreg_init           ;Call _wreg_init subroutine
                               
       clr    LATD                     ; set up for output, utilizing PORTD
       clr    TRISD
       clr PORTD

       mov    #0xFFFF,w0
       mov    w0,ADPCFG            ; set all analog pins to digital

       bset LATD,#RD8            ; RD8 has the honor to be selected to
blink

Loop:
       call d_1_sec            ; delay for one second

       btg LATD,#RD8            ; toggle the bit to turn LED on/off
       bra     Loop                ; endless loop



d_1_sec:    mov #28935,w0        ; delay constant for one second
                               ; using 7.38 MHz crystal and 4xPLL
                               ; (135 nanoseconds per instruction)
           mov    w0,PR1
     
       clr    T1CON                           ; clear Timer1 control
register
       clr    TMR1                              ; clear Timer1 count
register

       bset    T1CON,#TCKPS0
       bset    T1CON,#TCKPS1        ;    select 1:256 prescaler

       bset    IPC0,#T1IP0            ;  setup Timer1 interrupt for
       bclr    IPC0,#T1IP1            ;  level 1 priority
       bclr    IPC0,#T1IP2          

       bclr    IFS0,#T1IF            ;  Clear Timer1 interrupt status flag
       bset    IEC0,#T1IE            ;  Enable Timer1 interrupts

       bset    T1CON,#TON            ; start timer with prescaler set
to 1:256
       pwrsav    #1                    ; go into idle mode
                                              ; until Timer causes
interrupt

       bclr    IEC0,#T1IE            ; disable Timer1 interrupts
       bclr    T1CON,#TON            ; disable timer
       return

__T1Interrupt:
       bclr    IFS0,#T1IF
       retfie


_wreg_init:
       CLR W0
       MOV W0, W14
       REPEAT #12
       MOV W0, [++W14]
       CLR W14
       RETURN

.end                               ;End of program code in this file




2005\08\24@183450 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> OK, here you go.  Sorry it took so long.

oh my oh my, you just removed one more excuse to add 30F support :( :)

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2005\08\24@184445 by John Nall

picon face
Wouter van Ooijen wrote:

>> oh my oh my, you just removed one more excuse to add 30F support :( :)
>  
>
Think of it as doing a public service!  :-)  I have a 30F2010 chip that
came with the dsPICDEM board, so will modify the program to run on that
and send you a second hex file.

The offer to do grunt work still holds.  I don't expect to get off with
only a blink-an-led program.

John

2005\08\24@204617 by Chen Xiao Fan

face
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To have more choice is always good. Just hope that Wisp628,
EasyProg, PICkit 2 and other cheap programmers can soon support
the dsPIC30F.

Text books are too expensive in USA. You get them 1/2 or 1/3 the
price in Singapore (or Taiwan) with the same printing quality if
they have it. Those big publishers do have a branch in Singapore
so the common text book can also be bought here. Of course they
can only be sold in Singapore.

It is said that one can get 1/10 or 1/5 the price in India with
lower printing quality if they have the same title.

Regards,
Xiaofan

{Original Message removed}

2005\08\24@220328 by John Nall

picon face
OK, Wouter, here is the hex file for the blink-an-led program for the
ds30F2010.  Only a few lines changed in the source from the 3013
version.  Won't be able to do any more, though, unless some kind soul
sends me some more 30F chips -- I have exhausted the chips in the drawer
(the 3013 and the 2010).  So will just sit back and relax and try to
figure out what a modern hippie is supposed to do.  Free love?  (My wife
frowns on it).  Pot?  (The government frowns on it).  I'm not really
sure, to be honest, just exactly what us modern hippies are supposed to
do.  I suppose that I can sit here and lust for Olin's source code, but
that is really not too exciting, to tell the truth..  Guess I'll just go
and listen to some Beatles records.  Maybe that will give me some
creative ideas.

John
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
:020000040000fa
:080000000001040000000000f3
:020000040000fa
:100200000f802000809f2000000188000000000077
:100210004001020000000000d622ef00d222ef00d1
:10022000d422ef00f003200040158800d602a80079
:100230002001020000000000d602aa00fcff3700e7
:1002400070102700100888000421ef000021ef0043
:100250000481a80004a1a8009580a80095a0a90089
:1002600095c0a9008460a9008c60a80005e1a800e1
:100270000140fe008c60a90005e1a9000000060015
:100280000000eb00000778000c000900002f780048
:100290000007eb00000006008460a9000040060093
:020000040000fa
:0200000401f009
:04000000f5ff000008
:020000040000fa
:0200000401f009
:04000400ff7f00007a
:020000040000fa
:0200000401f009
:04000800eeff000007
:020000040000fa
:0200000401f009
:04001400ffff0000ea
:020000040000fa
:10000800520100005201000052010000520100009c
:10001800520100005201000052010000520100008c
:100028005201000052010000520100004c01000082
:10003800520100005201000052010000520100006c
:10004800520100005201000052010000520100005c
:10005800520100005201000052010000520100004c
:10006800520100005201000052010000520100003c
:10007800520100005201000052010000520100002c
:10008800520100005201000052010000520100001c
:10009800520100005201000052010000520100000c
:1000a80052010000520100005201000052010000fc
:1000b80052010000520100005201000052010000ec
:1000c80052010000520100005201000052010000dc
:1000d80052010000520100005201000052010000cc
:1000e80052010000520100005201000052010000bc
:0800f80052010000520100005a
:020000040000fa
:10010800520100005201000052010000520100009b
:10011800520100005201000052010000520100008b
:100128005201000052010000520100004c01000081
:10013800520100005201000052010000520100006b
:10014800520100005201000052010000520100005b
:10015800520100005201000052010000520100004b
:10016800520100005201000052010000520100003b
:10017800520100005201000052010000520100002b
:10018800520100005201000052010000520100001b
:10019800520100005201000052010000520100000b
:1001a80052010000520100005201000052010000fb
:1001b80052010000520100005201000052010000eb
:1001c80052010000520100005201000052010000db
:1001d80052010000520100005201000052010000cb
:1001e80052010000520100005201000052010000bb
:0801f800520100005201000059
:020000040000fa
:0402a000000000005a
:020000040000fa
:0402a4000000fe0058
:00000001FF

2005\08\24@222539 by Chen Xiao Fan

face
flavicon
face
You can always erase the chip. They are flash parts anyway.
So hopefully this will keep you busy. :)

You can also get some samples from Microchip. The sample
program is really very good.

Regards,
Xiaofan

{Original Message removed}

2005\08\24@230921 by Chen Xiao Fan

face
flavicon
face
By the way, just wondering if anyone is interested to get
PICkit 2 to support dsPIC. There are some people (including
me) who are interested to do it.

Regards,
Xiaofan

2005\08\24@232521 by Chen Xiao Fan

face
flavicon
face
There are two parts involved here. One is the firmware
side, the other is the host software side.

I have the adapted host software (a quick hack to Mark
Rages' usb_pickit code base) which can communicate with
the PICkit 2 and read the device ID now.

So if there are people who are interested, I will post
the code to the Microchip Forum or some other place even
though it is a bit ugly and not fully working now.

dsPIC support is still a bit too far away now since
even 18F support is not there yet. However it will be
good if we can do that soon so that we beat Microchip in
getting the chip support of dsPIC for PICkit 2.
Sounds fantastic, right?

I am afraid that I can only do some basic work with my
basic programming skills but I know there are many capable
people in this group. So I hope more people will want to take
the challenge. :)

Regards,
Xiaofan

-----Original Message-----
From: Chen Xiao Fan
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2005 11:09 AM

By the way, just wondering if anyone is interested to get
PICkit 2 to support dsPIC. There are some people (including
me) who are interested to do it.

Regards,
Xiaofan

2005\08\25@040151 by Alan B. Pearce
face picon face
>> OK, here you go.  Sorry it took so long.
>
>oh my oh my, you just removed one more excuse to add 30F support :( :)

Not only that, but removed a reason to put off playing with the samples I
have ... ;)))

2005\08\25@112754 by John Nall

picon face
Oh, and by the way Wouter:  You may not need this information (and
probably don't) but just in case:

For both the blink-an-led programs (the ds30F3013 and the ds30F2010) the
physical layout on the breadboard for the person who sets it up and is
all ready to use his (or her) new Wispxxx to program the hex code into
the chip  is exactly the same.  This presumes the 28-pin DIP package, of
course.

Pin 1 (MCLR) pulled high
Pin 8 (GND) to ground
The oscillator between pins 9 and 10.
Pin 13 (Vdd) to +5 volts.
Pin 15 to-resistor-to LED-to-ground  (Note that pin 15 is RD0
    on the 2010 but is RD8 on the 3013).
Pin 19 (GND) to ground
Pin 20 (Vdd) to +5 volts.

John

2005\08\25@120102 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> Pin 15 to-resistor-to LED-to-ground  (Note that pin 15 is RD0
>      on the 2010 but is RD8 on the 3013).

Grrrrrrr

The uChip person who did that must be locked up, along with the designer
of their PIC designation system!

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2005\08\25@124721 by John Nall

picon face
Wouter van Ooijen wrote:

>>Pin 15 to-resistor-to LED-to-ground  (Note that pin 15 is RD0
>>     on the 2010 but is RD8 on the 3013).
>>    
>>
>
>Grrrrrrr
>
>The uChip person who did that must be locked up, along with the designer
>of their PIC designation system!
>  
>
Although I might agree (just on general principles -- I think that
periodic flagellation builds character) there might be something in
their defense.  The ds30F2010 represents one group of chips (2010, 2011,
3010, 4012, 3011, 4011 and 6010), while the ds30F3013 represents another
group of chips (2011,3012,2012,3013,5011,5012,6011,6012,5013,6013 and
6014).  The templates provided by Microsoft with MPASM have one template
for one family, and a second template for the other family.  (The 2011
shows up in both templates but that is clearly an error).

John

2005\08\25@154859 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
One more suggestion: if printed datasheet books kan not be handed out
maybe they can be sold at BuyMicrochip?

anecdote: A few years ago I attended an 18F introduction. They handed
out datasheet books and IIRC some samples. While listening with half an
ear to the presentation I read the instruction set and memory
architecture, and before the meeting was over I had decided to add 18F
to Jal. I think I had it working within a few days (very rough, mainly
translating 14-bit instruction patterns directly to 18F). Later I
attended a 30F introduction. No printed datasheets, no samples. I don't
say its the only reason, but Jal still has no 30F support.

Yes, of course I can print the datasheet. The result weights a few kilos
and fills an ordner. OK on my desk, but not something I will read in
bath or in bed. If a printed 30F datasheet was easily available for $50
I would have bought one. Maybe even for $100.

another anecdote (before I jump in the bath, with an annotated copy of
start-with-pics): Of course I use the 'give small to catch big' tactic
too. See this LCD http://www.voti.nl/shop/p/LCD-09.html? A surplus store
sells them for much less (if they still have stock)(don't tell anyone!),
but with no data at all. I got it working, gave 10 or 20 to a guy who
figured it out too (independently) on the condition that he made a
webpage. Now I link to his page and I sell lots of these LCDs. Similar
for http://www.voti.nl/shop/p/M-SW-ROT.html, I gave a few to a German
site about MIDI or something like that, now I sell lots of these
rotaries (but not much else :( ) to Germany. Needless to say: if I have
a new product that I think one of these guys might do something usefull
with I just send them a few.

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


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