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'[PIC] choosing an educational programmer kit as a '
2007\03\04@015427 by Dr Skip

picon face
Greetings,

I'm looking to get a programmer and startup kit for midrange PICs to
give to my son as a gift. I have a serial programmer that I use, and so
can he, but the tools I've hobbled together has a bit of a learning
curve and it's used only with a serial port, and we could also use a USB
version here... I'd like to get him his own setup, with the least
possible room for programming or setup incompatibilities, and figure the
Microchip PicKit 1 or PicKit 2 would be best, and at $35 and $49, the
price is right.

My leaning is towards the PicKit2. Any thoughts on either for my
'educational' gift giving? He's in high school and has some Lego
Mindstorm experience. How are the lessons that are included with it? Is
it an easy to use programmer? How about included language(s)? I don't
get much for a description from the Microchip Direct listing - more of a
teeny marketing blurb.

Thanks in advance,
Skip


2007\03\04@022859 by scott larson

picon face
On 3/4/07, Dr Skip <spam_OUTdrskipTakeThisOuTspamgmail.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

I use this programmer:
http://cgi.ebay.com/BLUE-K149-USB-Microchip-PIC-Programmer-16F877A_W0QQitemZ120093322156QQihZ002QQcategoryZ4661QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

or at least mine looks just like it. Mine is compatible with mplab and
is a picstart plus clone. It does not say that on the ebay page, but i
bet it's the same.

The ZIF socket is nice, and it also has an ICSP header, which is also
nice. It's got an 18F452 IIRC controlling the thing, and an FTDI chip
to convert USB to serial (virtual serial port in windows, all i had to
do was install the drivers from the FTDI webpage). It is powered from
the USB port.

So far it's been incredibly reliable and i've been able to program all
sorts of 12F, 16F, and 18F parts with it, using the PICSTART PLUS
programmer in the MPLAB settings.

-Scott

2007\03\04@023400 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> Microchip PicKit 1 or PicKit 2 would be best, and at $35 and $49, the
> price is right.

pickit 1 is dead, it is not sw-upgradeable. pickit 2 is. IMHO it is a
good programmer, but the exp pcb that is part of the package is not so
super. there is no software with it that you can't download freely -
maybe that;s why they don't feel like describing it again.

I would say: throw in a solderless breadboard, a few 18F2520, xtal, some
R's leds, etc. and a separate 5V supply. Download and install C18, and
find a printer to print some 2k pages (datasheet, C18 manuals).

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2007\03\04@030718 by Vasile Surducan

face picon face
On 3/4/07, Wouter van Ooijen <.....wouterKILLspamspam@spam@voti.nl> wrote:
> > Microchip PicKit 1 or PicKit 2 would be best, and at $35 and $49, the
> > price is right.
>
> pickit 1 is dead, it is not sw-upgradeable. pickit 2 is. IMHO it is a
> good programmer, but the exp pcb that is part of the package is not so
> super. there is no software with it that you can't download freely -
> maybe that;s why they don't feel like describing it again.
>
> I would say: throw in a solderless breadboard, a few 18F2520, xtal, some
> R's leds, etc. and a separate 5V supply. Download and install C18, and
> find a printer to print some 2k pages (datasheet, C18 manuals).

Why did'nt you suggested jal ? He asked midrange PICs. Is definitely a
better option than C18 for any son in this world.
I'm against solderless breadboard as a prototyping methode. Who can say why ?

Look what a guy did after he read and done entirely what it was
written in one red book about jal:
http://surducan.netfirms.com/reactii.html
Of course you need to know romanian for reading the text, but english
will be fine for the picture...

2007\03\04@072240 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> Why did'nt you suggested jal ? He asked midrange PICs.

I would still suggest 18F. Jal can be a good choice too, but there is
less 'documented' stuff available for Jal. But maybe more enthusiastic
users :)

> Is definitely a better option than C18 for any son in this world.

depends on the son.

> I'm against solderless breadboard as a prototyping methode.
> Who can say why ?

no, I guess you have not seen the mess some newbies can make of
soldering their project :)

> Look what a guy did after he read and done entirely what it was
> written in one red book about jal:
> http://surducan.netfirms.com/reactii.html
> Of course you need to know romanian for reading the text, but english
> will be fine for the picture...

which picture?

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2007\03\04@081519 by Peter van Hoof

face picon face
scott larson goldscottspamKILLspamgmail.com wrote:
>I use this programmer:
>http://cgi.ebay.com/BLUE-K149-USB-Microchip-PIC-Programmer-16F877A_W0QQitemZ120093322156QQihZ002QQcategoryZ4661QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

>or at least mine looks just like it. Mine is compatible with mplab and
>is a picstart plus clone. It does not say that on the ebay page, but i
>bet it's the same.


Kit149 is not mplab compatible, It's a standalone which comes with it's own software.
It doesn't look like his particular one is an official kit149 (most ebay sold ones are ripoffs)

I bought a kit128 for a couple projects at work It uses the same software as the kit149.

Development of the software for this prograhas stalled and new pic support is not good.
A promise for new software has been around for years but does not seem to materialize

TTYL
Peter van Hoof

2007\03\04@094800 by John Chung

picon face
Sounds like we a training a new staff :)

John


--- Wouter van Ooijen <.....wouterKILLspamspam.....voti.nl> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> --

2007\03\04@102413 by Chris Piclist

flavicon
face





{Quote hidden}

Hi Skip,

If you are not totally decided on having him start with the PIC I would
like to tell you a story about my experience with my daughter. You might
find that this is a good way to go.

Last year I wanted to start teaching my daughter some basic electronics
and programming. I also wanted to learn some basic robotics - for my own
interests and as a teaching platform for her. I wanted something simple
and self-contained that we could enjoy without a lot of overhead but I
also wanted something that I could use for more advanced studies.

I spent some time researching educational electronics and robotics kits
and decided to take a look at what Parallax had to offer. I ended up
getting their Boe Bot package. It comes with a simple robot chassis, a
basic stamp, proto board and plenty of parts and other components. It
also includes an excellent text book. For my needs, it was pretty
simplistic but still a lot of fun. It's been phenomenal for teaching my
daughter and I use the robot chassis for many of the robot projects we
build together. You should consider taking a look at it. It will let
your son learn the basics of electronics and programming without a lot
of overhead - and the parts, robot and lessons will be useful when he
starts with the PIC.

You could also consider buying or downloading the "What is a
Microcontroller?" and "Robotics with the BoeBot" books. The downloadable
PDF version is identical to the soft cover that comes with the kit.

The Parallax kits are appropriate for almost any age level from 4 to
adult. It depends on how much help you give and your son's age and
abilities.

Here are a few links:
       Basic Stamp 2 Discovery Kit
http://www.parallax.com/html_pages/products/kits/starter_kits.asp.

       Parallax Boe Bot
http://www.parallax.com/detail.asp?product_id=910-28132.

To give you an idea of how versatile the BoeBot platform is, I am
currently using it's frame, servos and some of the sensors as part of a
PIC18 based environment mapping robot. Ultimately, the robot will live
on a more advanced chassis but for testing and development, the BoeBot
parts are working great. And, because it's the BoeBot, my daughter can
help and she is learning quite a bit about robotics and electronics.

Hope this helps!
Chris Levin



2007\03\04@232703 by Dr Skip

picon face
Thanks. We have a Basic Stamp I, and it's simple enough, but I'm looking
for something without the distraction of an interpreter in the mix.
Also, it would be nice if the target was cheap enough he felt like he
could start applying it everywhere, even fry a few, and at $30 or $40 a
pop for Stamps, that won't happen (there's other components to buy as
well, before any project is finished). Kits where the programmer has to
be built will slow things down (we have kits waiting to be built...) and
my setup with a serial port programmer and 3 or 4 software pkgs to go
from high level code to programmed binary is added distraction that I'm
trying to eliminate. Lighting LEDs will get old fast, and I'd like to
get him to "ahhhh now I get it, let's build something that controls..."
on an intuitive level as fast and painless as possible, so he doesn't
get discouraged with software incompatibilities, hardware problems, etc.
There'll be enough of that to go around when he starts going after
serious applications. ;)
BTW, he finds robotics interesting, but I don't think that'll be where
he ends up focusing on - it just doesn't seem to be his love.

I saw an article in this Month's Nuts and Volts today, using PicKit2
with its ICSP and pinouts for up to 40 pins. Sounded good - and it was
after I wrote my first note! Perhaps a few questions are in order, based
on the comments so far:

- Are there any known problems or incompatibilities with the PicKit2
programmer and XP and the midrange PICs?

- I've  heard of JAL. If $ were plentiful, I might even go PicBasic Pro,
so it's got to be free/open source compilers. How easy and robust is
JAL? Any comments on GC Basic?

- I am assuming MPLAB drives the PicKit2 fine?

- Is Microchip Direct the best place/price for the genuine PicKit2? They
seem to be backordered. Any other commercial sources?

- He's got some Basic and VB skills, "Hello World" in C, and no assy
exposure. Would you suggest he learn JAL (is it used and complete enough
to be legit?), GC Basic (he could start on things quickly perhaps), C
(which might slow thing down as he tries to learn the architecture, the
PIC AND C at the same time), or assembly (I hope no one says that,
because I know his interest will die halfway through the
documentation... ;)  ?

Thanks again,
Skip


2007\03\05@000143 by James Nick Sears

flavicon
face
Have you looked at the Arduino platform?   (http://arduino.cc I think
-- I'm on the road away from the net as I write, so google it if
that's wrong.)  It's an open AVR-based project started by a group in
Italy and picked up by a global audience, including many of the people
at my school program.  It certainly is less powerful than a PIC (I've
yet to use it for a project personally) but as a beginner's learning
platform it's pretty excellent and there's a large community of people
contributing libraries and hardware/firmware examples online.  Another
nice thing is that you can get started with hardware and (free)
software for about $30.  No programmer required, as the whole platform
runs on a USB-based bootloader.

Failing that, I've had good luck with the MicroEngineering Labs PIC
Programers (http://www.melabs.com -- again, I think that's the right
URL).  I've used a Serial model borrowed from a friend with the
USB->Serial adapter flawlessly for the past few months.  I'm waiting
for the next project to jump in with my new USBPROG.

Either way, best of luck - very cool to see kids getting started early.

-n.


On 3/4/07, Dr Skip <@spam@drskipKILLspamspamgmail.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -

2007\03\05@004443 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face

On Mar 4, 2007, at 8:26 PM, Dr Skip wrote:

> We have a Basic Stamp I, and it's simple enough, but I'm looking
> for something without the distraction of an interpreter in the mix.
> Also, it would be nice if the target was cheap enough he felt like he
> could start applying it everywhere, even fry a few, and at $30 or $40 a
> pop for Stamps, that won't happen

Someone pointed out that a basic stamp I can be had for as little
as $15: http://www.parallax.com/detail.asp?product_id=27112 (includes
a proto area and some connectors; probably more useful for actually
building things than the stamp modules.)

Part way between stamps and assembler are things like the PicAxe:
http://www.rev-ed.co.uk/picaxe/mainframe.htm (which looks like a
bootloader+ide+compiler?)

The pickit1 is somewhat upgradable; I just bought a new chip to
upgrade the firmware ($5 from microchip.)  But it does look like
most of the current interest is pickit2...

There are the AVRs.  The "Butterfly" is a great value in a "large"
AVR demo board at $20, and the "Dragon" seems to be a pretty
complete programmer/etc.

BillW

2007\03\05@005114 by Vasile Surducan

face picon face
On 3/4/07, Wouter van Ooijen <KILLspamwouterKILLspamspamvoti.nl> wrote:
> > Why did'nt you suggested jal ? He asked midrange PICs.
>
> I would still suggest 18F. Jal can be a good choice too, but there is
> less 'documented' stuff available for Jal. But maybe more enthusiastic
> users :)
>
> > Is definitely a better option than C18 for any son in this world.
>
> depends on the son.
>
> > I'm against solderless breadboard as a prototyping methode.
> > Who can say why ?
>
> no, I guess you have not seen the mess some newbies can make of
> soldering their project :)

That's the point. A good microcontroller based project (any one will
be and any country the user will belongs) is 50% hardware and 50%
software.
There isn't any other choice. From the 50% hardware, 25% is the design
itself and 25% is the PCB. Yes the PCB is electronics and not an
auxiliary job as most people (even on this list)  consider.

A breadboard means an unfinished project today and another unfinished
project tomorrow. A mess today and a mess tomorrow because it's on the
same style. It means a lack of soldering acknoledgments, a lack of
search for miniaturised packages, a lack of know about availability of
different packages for the same component and finally a way for
covering just 50% from the project.

This problem appears in many highschools (here too). All courses are
very good on their direction (software, PCB design, hardware) but
there isn't any course which teach the student how to combine them,
giving a global point of view. That's why 98% of the students after
graduating are so dizzy when they need to finish a project from the
beginning to the end and the common expression for this dizzy is "they
have no experience". They don't have because they didn't search for
it.

>
> > Look what a guy did after he read and done entirely what it was
> > written in one red book about jal:
> > http://surducan.netfirms.com/reactii.html
> > Of course you need to know romanian for reading the text, but english
> > will be fine for the picture...
>
> which picture?
There is only one photo there, that's the picture (in the great
English language where the word "picture" has 14 different senses :) )

Vasile

2007\03\05@012953 by John Chung

picon face
A developer's programmer is a better choice since you
are able to get it working plus able to build as many
circuits are you wish. Dev boards can be good when it
comes to hard to solder components.

> The pickit1 is somewhat upgradable; I just bought a
> new chip to
> upgrade the firmware ($5 from microchip.)  But it
> does look like
> most of the current interest is pickit2...
>
> There are the AVRs.  The "Butterfly" is a great
> value in a "large"
> AVR demo board at $20, and the "Dragon" seems to be
The butterfly board is okay. NOT great but has plenty
of stuff packed into it from ldr to a piezo. RTC and
ADC is built into the MCU. A mini joystick is in
there. But after developing for it I cannot recommend
it if the buyer does not have the Dragon board or the
main AVR programmer's board. The boot loader over the
UART is a PAINFUL experience since I need to press
down the button while booting it.

John



____________________________________________________________________________________
Any questions? Get answers on any topic at http://www.Answers.yahoo.com.  Try it now.

2007\03\05@025820 by Chetan Bhargava

picon face
Please don't forget PICAXE (http://www.rev-ed.co.uk/picaxe/)
Although I have bought them, I haven't used them being beginers' chip.
They look like a good alternative over Parallax.


Chetan Bhargava
Web: http://www.bhargavaz.net
Blog: http://microz.blogspot.com

2007\03\05@070334 by olin piclist

face picon face
James Nick Sears wrote:
> Failing that, I've had good luck with the MicroEngineering Labs PIC
> Programers (http://www.melabs.com

If you're looking at that, then consider that my programmers
(http://www.embedinc.com/products) generally costs less and do more.  My
USBProg costs $10 less than the their open board USB programmer.  Their
serial programmer costs $20 more than my EasyProg after you add in the power
supply, serial cable, and ZIF socket, all of which come standard with a
EasyProg.

However, I don't think any of these programmers are what you are looking
for, which is why I didn't mention this before.  If you just want a cheap
programmer, get the PicKit2.  It cuts a few corners and isn't guaranteed to
work accross the full range of compliant USB ports, but it does work most of
the time.  It makes sense in a hobby situation where you are willing to put
up with some hassle and flakiness in return for lower cost.

The only other alternative worth considering is the ICD2 because it also
functions as a debugger.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2007\03\05@084450 by Howard Winter

face
flavicon
picon face
Skip,

I would recommend the PICkit2 - buy the package with the development board (and a 16F690) included.  If you're in the UK Farnell still has a
promotional offer that includes the above and a smattering of PICs - the latter tend to be the less useful ones, but the price is less than buying the
PICkit2 alone, so you can just throw them away!  (or sell them on eBay, as I've seen done)

If you're not in the UK, Microchip Direct are OK, but watch out for the shipping costs - over here they tend to start at about half the cost of the
PICkit2, so it's worth putting a decent order together (perhaps buy the pack of development boards, which has one populated and two empty, if I
remember rightly).

MPLAB is a bit behind on full support for the PICkit2 at the moment - the latter has its own simplified programming software which you can use once
you have a .HEX file to download, creating the program and compiling it to the .HEX file in MPLAB first (perhaps simulating it there too).  I have no
doubt that MPLAB *will* be enhanced to support the thing properly, but it seems to be taking them a long time to get there!  The PICkit2 software
and MPLAB are all downloadable free, of course.  Once you've done that, start up MPLAB and pull down the "Configure / Select Device" menu, choose
"Mid Range" under "Device Family", then scroll up and down the "Device" pulldown you'll see the traffic lights change colour for each
development/programming system.  There aren't a lot of greens for the PICkit2, but there are enough to be going on with for quite some time!  I like
the 16F690, personally, and this is what comes with the development board.

The PICAXE range has been suggested, and if you (/he) want to start with BASIC then this is the way to go - much cheaper per chip than
BASICstamps (not much more than the PICs they consist of), but the limitation is the size and complexity of program you can fit into them - you can
run out of space really quickly.  A setup using the 18-pin PICAXE plus its development board and programming cable would come out at a similar price
to a PICkit2, so you can decide on whether you want to go with PIC assembler (PICkit2) or BASIC (PICAXE).

Best of luck!

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2007\03\05@104615 by John Chung

picon face

--- Olin Lathrop <RemoveMEolin_piclistTakeThisOuTspamembedinc.com> wrote:


> programmer, get the PicKit2.  It cuts a few corners
> and isn't guaranteed to
> work accross the full range of compliant USB ports,
> but it does work most of
> the time.  It makes sense in a hobby situation where
> you are willing to put
> up with some hassle and flakiness in return for
> lower cost.
>
 What corners did they cut on the USB compliance?

John



____________________________________________________________________________________
Don't pick lemons.
See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos.
http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html

2007\03\05@110848 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
>   What corners did they cut on the USB compliance?

The lowest "+5V" allowed by the USB specs is slightly less than the
lowest voltage spec'ed by Mirochip for erasing (and programming?) some
chips.

The usb power to chip power circuitry is a bit fragile, when you
accidentally short the 'power outputs' something will go 'poof'.

The circuitry for programming a chip at < 5V operates the PIC inside the
pickit2 outside Mirochip's specs (but uChip says it is still okay - I
guess they are the only ones who can say so with authority).

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2007\03\05@113126 by olin piclist

face picon face
John Chung wrote:
> What corners did they cut on the USB compliance?

For one thing minimum Vdd for bulk erase is not met for many PICs over the
possible range of voltages received from the USB port.  The PicKit2 has no
provision for making a regulated 5V.  It just uses the USB power voltage
directly.  Another serious cut corner is that this voltage is also used as
the reference for making and measuring other voltages.  I think you can show
that Vpp will therefore be out of spec in a bunch of cases, but I haven't
actually checked that.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2007\03\05@114328 by Mark Rages

face picon face
On 3/5/07, Wouter van Ooijen <spamBeGonewouterspamBeGonespamvoti.nl> wrote:
> >   What corners did they cut on the USB compliance?
>
> The lowest "+5V" allowed by the USB specs is slightly less than the
> lowest voltage spec'ed by Mirochip for erasing (and programming?) some
> chips.
>
> The usb power to chip power circuitry is a bit fragile, when you
> accidentally short the 'power outputs' something will go 'poof'.
>
> The circuitry for programming a chip at < 5V operates the PIC inside the
> pickit2 outside Mirochip's specs (but uChip says it is still okay - I
> guess they are the only ones who can say so with authority).
>
> Wouter van Ooijen
>

Why these are not such a big deal (for the curious, Wouter already knows this):

1.  If your computer puts out 5.0 V at the USB port, you'll be fine.
Most do.  Also, this is not an issue if an external supply is used.

2.  I think the latest firmware notices if Vdd is stuck and shuts off
the output, hopefully before the schottky dies... but I've already
replaced it in my PICkit.

3. See discussion on pickit-devel:
http://groups.google.com/group/pickit-devel/browse_thread/thread/2dd07bed3164d97c

Regards,
Mark
markrages@gmail
--
You think that it is a secret, but it never has been one.
 - fortune cookie

2007\03\05@122839 by Maarten Hofman

face picon face
Redwood Shores, 5 maart 2007.

2007/3/5, Wouter van Ooijen <TakeThisOuTwouterEraseMEspamspam_OUTvoti.nl>:
>
> >   What corners did they cut on the USB compliance?
>
> The lowest "+5V" allowed by the USB specs is slightly less than the
> lowest voltage spec'ed by Mirochip for erasing (and programming?) some
> chips.


Mine gives 4.6V, and I have had no problems with the programming part. The
only thing that keeps bothering me now and then is the "USB device not
recognized" issue, which means I have to shut the software down, disconnect
the PicKit 2, wait for a minute and hope that it is recognized when I
reconnent it. Not very bad, but occasionally annoying, especially when you
have to do it five times in a row.

The usb power to chip power circuitry is a bit fragile, when you
> accidentally short the 'power outputs' something will go 'poof'.


I assume that with the new "sensing" stuff that happens in version 2 of the
PicKit 2 software this is less likely to happen. Mine refuses to do anything
the moment it detects something iffish about my circuit. I have done some
reasoanbly bad things to my PicKit 2, and it is still working fine (except
for the above mentioned issue, which it exhibited from the beginning).

Greetings,
Maarten Hofman.

2007\03\05@133353 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> Mine gives 4.6V,

which is *above* the minimum allowed by the USB specs

> and I have had no problems with the programming part.

did you try all PICs?

> The only thing that keeps bothering me now and then is the "USB device
not
> recognized" issue

It seems that not even the uChip people understand that one :(

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2007\03\05@134548 by Maarten Hofman

face picon face
2007/3/5, Wouter van Ooijen <RemoveMEwouterspamTakeThisOuTvoti.nl>:
>
> > Mine gives 4.6V,
>
> which is *above* the minimum allowed by the USB specs
>
> > and I have had no problems with the programming part.
>
> did you try all PICs?


16F628A, 16F688 (my favourite), 10F202, 16F877A, 16F88, 16F690. I also did
the 18F452, but that used external power, so it doesn't really count. I can
try a few others if you want, although my inventory is limited. I am VERY
happy with the PicKit 2, and like the demo board too... Very easy to make
extensions for it.

Greetings,
Maarten Hofman.

2007\03\05@171645 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> > > and I have had no problems with the programming part.
> >
> > did you try all PICs?
>
>
> 16F628A, 16F688 (my favourite), 10F202, 16F877A, 16F88,
> 16F690. I also did
> the 18F452, but that used external power, so it doesn't
> really count. I can
> try a few others if you want, although my inventory is
> limited. I am VERY
> happy with the PicKit 2, and like the demo board too... Very
> easy to make
> extensions for it.

It was a rethorical question. The lowest voltage that *can* get out of
an USB is below what Microchip *requires* for some chips to erase. That
your particular setup happens to work does not change that.

But don't get me wrong: I like the pickit2. For its price it is a nice
little programmer, and for some PICs even a debugger.

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2007\03\05@182652 by Dr Skip

picon face
Wouter van Ooijen wrote:
> But don't get me wrong: I like the pickit2. For its price it is a nice
> little programmer, and for some PICs even a debugger.
>
> Wouter van Ooijen
OK, how do you get it to be a debugger? I've only programmed from a
dedicated programmer and not ICSP...

Skip

2007\03\05@220349 by John Chung

picon face

--- Olin Lathrop <olin_piclistEraseMEspam.....embedinc.com> wrote:

> John Chung wrote:
> > What corners did they cut on the USB compliance?
>
> For one thing minimum Vdd for bulk erase is not met
> for many PICs over the
> possible range of voltages received from the USB
> port.  The PicKit2 has no
> provision for making a regulated 5V.  It just uses
> the USB power voltage
> directly.  Another serious cut corner is that this
> voltage is also used as
> the reference for making and measuring other
> voltages.  I think you can show
> that Vpp will therefore be out of spec in a bunch of
> cases, but I haven't
> actually checked that.
>
>
Thanks for the info.
John





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2007\03\05@222432 by Bob Axtell

face picon face
John Chung wrote:
{Quote hidden}

That's a particularly annoying problem (low USB port 5V). Some PC's,
especially
laptops, are overloaded with USB devices, including MICE, music gadgets,
keyboards,
and many other things. When you add a USB-based programmer that requires
4.5+
there is a real chance that you won't get it.

--Bob
{Quote hidden}

2007\03\05@231946 by Dr Skip

picon face
Would a wall wart and a 7805 (or some value up from there) make it right?

John Chung wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2007\03\06@000755 by John Chung

picon face

--- Dr Skip <RemoveMEdrskipspam_OUTspamKILLspamgmail.com> wrote:

> Would a wall wart and a 7805 (or some value up from
> there) make it right?
>
Does not apply for the case below. Check back
Mark Rages post on this thread. After reviewing some
of
the notes, PicKit 2 is pretty good with short circuit
protection*pickit-devel*.  Anyway for your case go for

PicKit2 unless you want a BETTER programmer*support
more PICs and have MORE realibility* which you would
need to get another programmer. Debugging helps PLENTY

for beginners which you son would LOVE to have. Just
step through the code at runtime. A definite feature
for heavy users. Some do use without a debugger which
is fine if you know what you are doing at assembly.

Anyway for a beginner and your encouragement a PICKIT2

is a good choice. Light on expenses plus he may change

MCU after a while like AVR which has better C support.
With PIC16F877A and dsPIC supported he can enjoy it
plenty until he wants to debug it. By then he want
more powerful programmer and debugger.

John


{Quote hidden}

____________________________________________________________________________________
> > Need Mail bonding?
> > Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from
> Yahoo! Answers users.
> >
>
answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396546091
> >  
>
> --

2007\03\06@020725 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> OK, how do you get it to be a debugger? I've only programmed from a
> dedicated programmer and not ICSP...

Read the pickit2 web page, use MPLAB.

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


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