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'[PIC] a good try in pic with pid to control temper'
2004\12\06@193623 by rosoftwarecontrol

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I just successfully did one project:
transfer my pid control into my solding iron and found such a good try.

With my solding iron been pid controlled, the temperature
goes within 3 degree and give such perfect, small sodling.
It is much better perforomance than expensive Weller products (it gives
20C deg moving normally). By the better controlling, I now can set my iron at 197 C and get all kind of benefit with this temperature.
I can use copper as solding tip without burning it. I always get round tin at end of solding, as melten tin wetting so well due to flux do not disappeared
promptly.
Any body did the same? What is your temperature controlled range?

BR,

Paul
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2004\12\06@204800 by Eric Smith

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Paul wrote:
> transfer my pid control into my solding iron and found
> such a good try.  With my solding iron been pid controlled, the
> temperature goes within 3 degree and give such perfect, small sodling.
> It is much better perforomance than expensive Weller products (it gives
> 20C deg moving normally). By the better controlling, I now can set my iron
> at 197 C and get all kind of benefit with this temperature.

I don't know, but perhaps PID control is used in Metcal soldering
equipment.  They certainly seem to have much better temperature
regulation than anything else I've used.

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2004\12\06@210055 by Spehro Pefhany

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At 05:47 PM 12/6/2004 -0800, you wrote:
>Paul wrote:
> > transfer my pid control into my solding iron and found
> > such a good try.  With my solding iron been pid controlled, the
> > temperature goes within 3 degree and give such perfect, small sodling.
> > It is much better perforomance than expensive Weller products (it gives
> > 20C deg moving normally). By the better controlling, I now can set my iron
> > at 197 C and get all kind of benefit with this temperature.
>
>I don't know, but perhaps PID control is used in Metcal soldering
>equipment.  They certainly seem to have much better temperature
>regulation than anything else I've used.

They're effectively proportional with a very narrow p-band. They work
on RF principles (and the Curie point of the alloy in the cartridge).
The temperature is not adjustable, but it is measured very close to the
actual soldering point.

Good sensor and actuator design beats fancy control strategies almost
every time! And when it doesn't, it makes the controls much more
robust.

Best regards,

Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the reward"
spam_OUTspeffTakeThisOuTspaminterlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com




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2004\12\07@065920 by Anthony Van Herrewege

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Actually, the Metcal equipment doesn't measure anything. The connector only delivers current to the solder tip. Physics does the rest. In case you're interested, there's some info on it on their site, I can't seem to find it now, but there's a bit about it here: http://www.metcal.com/tips/nocal.html

I have a Metcal MX500 since 3 weeks myself now and everytime I use it I realise how much better it is than my old soldering iron.

Anthony

Eric Smith <.....ericKILLspamspam@spam@brouhaha.com> wrote:

I don't know, but perhaps PID control is used in Metcal soldering
equipment. They certainly seem to have much better temperature
regulation than anything else I've used.


Website: http://members.lycos.nl/anthonyvh

               
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2004\12\07@090402 by Gaston Gagnon

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microsoftwarecontrol wrote:
> I just successfully did one project:
>
> transfer my pid control into my solding iron and found
> such a good try.
>
> With my solding iron been pid controlled, the temperature
> goes within 3 degree and give such perfect, small sodling.
> It is much better perforomance than expensive Weller products (it gives
> 20C deg moving normally). By the better controlling, I now can set my iron
> at 197 C and get all kind of benefit with this temperature.
> I can use copper as solding tip without burning it. I always get round tin at
> end of solding, as melten tin wetting so well due to flux do not disappeared
> promptly.

> Any body did the same? What is your temperature controlled
> range?

Hi Paul,
What type and model of soldering iron did you used and what type of
sensor is used in it?
What do you calibrate your system with?

Gaston
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2004\12\07@141220 by rosoftwarecontrol

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Hi,

I use thermal couple and my own calibration method that
involves displaying p,i,d value continuously.

The iron is just what I get from radio shark, 30W and I
really think should use at least 50W.

BR,

Paul


{Original Message removed}

2004\12\07@143932 by rosoftwarecontrol

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Do Metcal use Curie principle? I repaired many time
Weller's Currie principle iron, and contactor of
electricity can't handl 50W/24V=2A. Also, Weller's
iron has huge block of metal as sensor and long dead time,
not perfect. May be Metcal did some improvement in this?

I found with pid, even not so good sensor, you still can
get good performance. I means performance about LOAD.
I sold TSSOP and huge aluminium heat sink, use same iron.
I learned little trick to do both by to train pid to pump up the
power from 20% to 50% of pwm. Can Curie type or something
else do this?

Paul







{Original Message removed}

2004\12\08@054900 by Peter L. Peres

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On Mon, 6 Dec 2004, Eric Smith wrote:

{Quote hidden}

Afaik they use the same Curie effect as Weller/Cooper do, but unlike
Weller the sensor *and* the heater is the bit itself. This means that
temperature regulation depends on the Curie point (very sharply defined)
at a very small distance from the work (fractions of a millimeter
probably). F.ex. it should be possible for the left half of a 0.8mm bit to
be colder by 0.1 degrees C than the right and it to receive power from the
rf heater source, while the other half doesn't.

Peter
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2004\12\08@070559 by Mike Harrison

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On Tue, 7 Dec 2004 21:06:24 +0200 (IST), you wrote:

{Quote hidden}

Once you have used a Metcal you won't want to use any other iron again.

There is no control other than the curie effect in the tip heater - this is a slug of metal welded
to the back of the tip, surrounded by a coil excited by RF. The heater absorbs as much energy as
needed to maintain the temperature, and being a lump of metal has very low thermal resistance to the
tip.  
Most people don't need ultra-precise temp control, but what you do need is power on demand, quickly
without overshoot and this is exactly what the Metcal gives you - even relatively small bits can
solder large-ish terminals and groundplanes, and with the bigger bits you can do stuff like
soldering a TO220 tab to a groundplane easily without damage (OK you don't often need to do this but
it illustrates the capability).
There are 2 other major side-benefits- you can change a tip and be up to temp again in about 15
seconds, and the very compact heating arrangement means that you are holding the iron very close to
the hot bit, so control is very good, and the handle stays stone cold.



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2004\12\08@083847 by Alan B. Pearce

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>Once you have used a Metcal you won't want
>to use any other iron again.

Oh, I don't know about that - give me an electronic Weller any time.

What frustrates me about the Metcal is if you don't solder for a bit it goes
into a power save mode, and you have to switch the power off and on again.
Most frustrating when you have something awkward all organised, grab the
iron and it is cold.

The one claimed advantage for the Metcal that might make me use it over a
Weller is the lack of electrical noise at the tip from heater switching.

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2004\12\08@100505 by Peter Moreton

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Hey that is so true. I recently did a PIC 18F design for Elektor magazine,
and my Weller WTCP iron showed me that the onboard programmer would blip
MCLR occasionally when subjected to a bit of EMC. I would never have noticed
it otherwise!

Peter Moreton
 

{Original Message removed}

2004\12\08@100714 by Michael Rigby-Jones

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>-----Original Message-----
>From: piclist-bouncesspamKILLspammit.edu [.....piclist-bouncesKILLspamspam.....mit.edu]
>On Behalf Of Alan B. Pearce
>Sent: 08 December 2004 13:39
>To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
>Subject: Re: [PIC] a good try in pic with pid to control
>temperature ofsoldingiron
>
>
>>Once you have used a Metcal you won't want
>>to use any other iron again.
>
>Oh, I don't know about that - give me an electronic Weller any time.
>
>What frustrates me about the Metcal is if you don't solder for
>a bit it goes into a power save mode, and you have to switch
>the power off and on again. Most frustrating when you have
>something awkward all organised, grab the iron and it is cold.

That is an annoying feature.  Don't know if this is specific only some
models, as we have some that do power save and some that don't.

Mike

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2004\12\08@110801 by Mike Harrison

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On Wed, 8 Dec 2004 13:52:38 -0000, you wrote:

{Quote hidden}

This is a switchable feature on newer ones. If you look carefully, on the right-hand side of the
case there is a small grubscrew - screwing this in or out (can't remember which) disables this
feature.

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