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'[PIC] ZIF Sockets'
2005\02\02@163344 by Robin Abbott

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As a small scale manufacturer of programmers it is cause of continual
irritation to us that the 40 pin multi width ZIF socket forms over 80%
of the material cost of the programmer !

Can anyone recommend a US or European source of cheaper sockets (at the
moment the cost to us is around $24.00) ?

Thanks In Advance,

Robin Abbott

Forest Electronic Developments

01590 681511
+44 1590 681511 (phone/fax)

See our web pages : http://www.fored.co.uk


2005\02\02@171349 by Mike Hord

picon face
> As a small scale manufacturer of programmers it is cause of continual
> irritation to us that the 40 pin multi width ZIF socket forms over 80%
> of the material cost of the programmer !
>
> Can anyone recommend a US or European source of cheaper sockets (at the
> moment the cost to us is around $24.00) ?

Digikey sells Aries ZIF sockets for as low as $7.82US in single quantity.  I've
never used these in large quantities, but the one on my Warp-13a seems to
have done okay over the last few years.

The above price is for solder tail, but through hole is one a few bucks more.
Gold finish gets substantially more expensive, but the tin contact, 40-pin
through-hole is $12.11 in singles or $10.5944 in 25 qty.

Mike H.

2005\02\02@194110 by Howard Winter

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Robin,

On Wed, 2 Feb 2005 21:32:53 -0000, Robin Abbott wrote:

> As a small scale manufacturer of programmers it is cause of continual
> irritation to us that the 40 pin multi width ZIF socket forms over 80%
> of the material cost of the programmer !
As a hobbyist the cost of the darned things annoys me too!  :-)

> Can anyone recommend a US or European source of cheaper sockets (at the
> moment the cost to us is around $24.00) ?

Well Rapid Electronics (http://www.rapidelectronics.co.uk) has the Aries 40-pin ZIF at GB£11.00 plus VAT in singles, which is about US$24 I suppose, but they get cheaper in quantity of course.  In the US Olin is keen on Jameco (http://www.jameco.com) has the same one for US$11.25 in singles (again, rather cheaper even in 10s) but do watch for their shipping and handling charges when buying from this side of the pond - I've had some nasty surprises in the past so check first!

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England

2005\02\03@013419 by cdb

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Robin,

With the current £ versus the A$ and U$ have a look at http://www.futurlec.com, Australian company, but charge in US dollars,

ZIFU40 40 Pin Universal ZIF Socket  U$9.00   approx £4.77

ZIFS40 40 Pin Standard ZIF Socket  U$6.00

or

http://www.rockby.com.au  (A$).

28655   NIF40S-T-G  40 Pins Economy ZIF Socket  A$17.66 1up or

$15.889 10up  £6.54

Colin


:: an anyone recommend a US or European source of cheaper sockets (at
:: the
::
:: moment the cost to us is around $24.00) ?


-- cdb, spam_OUTcolinTakeThisOuTspambtech-online.co.uk on Thursday,3 February,2005

Web presence: http://www.btech-online.co.uk  
Hosted by:  http://www.1and1.co.uk/?k_id=7988359

Light travels faster than sound. That's why some people appear bright until they speak!

2005\02\03@031651 by Wouter van Ooijen

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> > As a small scale manufacturer of programmers it is cause of
> continual
> > irritation to us that the 40 pin multi width ZIF socket
> forms over 80%
> > of the material cost of the programmer !
>
> As a hobbyist the cost of the darned things annoys me too!  :-)

Then why do you use those stupid things at all? Alternatives:
- include an ICSP connector in you dedign
- use a DIP (or SOIC) testclip
- make your own DIP ICSP adapter: take a tower of ~ 5 round-pin DIP
sockets, stack them towgether. Solder the ICSP wires to the appropriate
pins, PIC enters at the top, the whole stack is put in the socket where
the PIC was intended.

If you still think you need ZIFs: I'll lower the price of the 40-pin
universal in my shop to ~ E 10 when I have a receive the next shipment.

The only reason I use ZIF sockets myself is for (medium-scale)
production: I use the stack described above, but with a ZIF at the top
and a Wisp628 permanently attached, and a 5 V supply. This makes an
all-in-one program and test system.

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2005\02\03@132318 by Peter Johansson

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Wouter van Ooijen writes:

> > > As a small scale manufacturer of programmers it is cause of
> > continual
> > > irritation to us that the 40 pin multi width ZIF socket
> > forms over 80%
> > > of the material cost of the programmer !
> >
> > As a hobbyist the cost of the darned things annoys me too!  :-)
>
> Then why do you use those stupid things at all? Alternatives:
> - include an ICSP connector in you dedign

I wonder why people are using anything *but* ICSP when they have that
option.  It's just do darned convenient to build a circuit on your
breadboard and then just program and re-program to your heart's
content without ever touching the hardware.    You don't need to spend
much more to get in-circuit debugging as well.  The only time I can
see use for a ZIF socket is when you want to program a bunch of
chips.  In reality, you would want to use a production programmer
(multiple voltage verify) for this, you but can make do with a small
(400 pin, $3) breadboard and one 40-pin multi-width ZIF socket.  Plug
the ZIF into the breadboard and wire up the apropriate pins to your
ICSP programmer and burn away.  This way you only need *one* ZIF
socket for *all* your chips, regardles of mfgr.

-p.

2005\02\03@140616 by John J. McDonough

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Johansson" <.....peterKILLspamspam@spam@elemental.org>
Subject: Re: [PIC] ZIF Sockets


> I wonder why people are using anything *but* ICSP when they have that

I was going to write a nastynote in reponse to Wouter, but thought better of
it.

The fact of the matter is, many, many folks are TERRIFIED of change.  This
seems especialy true of projects involving the PIC.  Something about
embedded processing is mysterious, and very, very frightening.  Look at all
the *new* 16F84 projects out there.  Once people have learned to do
something, it can be very hard to make even a little change.

I have a friend who is an excellent circuit designer, and a pretty darned
good programmer.  He has a number of F84 based projects, one of which he
wants to extend but he is out of space on the 84.  About six months ago he
got a 628 to use to extend that project.  I have assured him it is not an
whole new thing, have shown him F84 apps moved to the 628, even showed him
some stuff that was conditionalized for either.  He knows what he wants to
do, but just yesterday admitted to being a little afraid of diving in.

And as far as doing this with ICSP? Forget it. He understands the advantages
of ICSP, and he has more than enough circuit knowledge to apply it an
anything he wants.  But he wouldn't consider anything other than plugging
and unplugging!  Afraid of change.

Now, if you are in the business of selling something, say a PIC programmer,
you are *not* in the business of using it.  What you want/need may be very
different from what your customer wants.  It is your job to deliver to your
customer what satisfies his perceived need.  It is pretty clear from the
market out there that a lot of buyers of PIC programmers "need" a ZIF
socket.  Well, then, the astute supplier will deliver to that customer a ZIF
socket.

--McD



2005\02\03@140708 by Jan-Erik Soderholm

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cdb wrote :

> With the current £ versus the A$ and U$ have a look at
> http://www.futurlec.com, Australian company, but charge in US dollars,
>
> ZIFU40 40 Pin Universal ZIF Socket  U$9.00   approx £4.77
>
> ZIFS40 40 Pin Standard ZIF Socket  U$6.00
Interesting...

I could swear that this one :
http://www.futurlec.com/Sockets/ZIFU40.shtml
is the same as those that I have a box of, and that has
been verified by 3M as counterfeit. From the picture it has
exactly the same design, including the area in the middle for
the (3M) part number (following the the 3M numbering scheme,
"nnn-nnnn", but with a number that never have been use on *any*
true 3M part). They are definitly made to *look* as a real 3M parts.

As a reference, here is an image of a real 3M part :
http://www.elfa.se/images/highres/h3877.jpg
They are clearly sold as "3M/Textool" parts.

On this one :
http://www.futurlec.com/Sockets/ZIFS20.shtml
you can clearly see the part number "220-3345" which
is the same number as on my "fake" 20-pin ZIF's (as verified
by 3M).

And, if they *are* real 3M's, why not say so, since they are
maybe the best ZIF's available anyway ??

Well, I don't know...
Jan-Erik.


2005\02\03@141627 by John Ferrell

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The answer to that is that most don't realize this. How about a reference or
a write up?

John Ferrell
http://DixieNC.US

{Original Message removed}

2005\02\03@143419 by Wouter van Ooijen
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> I was going to write a nastynote in reponse to Wouter, but
> thought better of it.

Rethink, I am not easily offended, provided that you target my
arguments, not my person :)

> Now, if you are in the business of selling something, say a
> PIC programmer, you are *not* in the business of using it.

I sell my Wisp628, ICD2, a number of kitrus programmer kits, and a
pickit1 clone. I also use my Wisp628 (in fact I often have five of them
on my desk, each connected to some target and most of them also
connected to a PC), I sometimes use my old PS+ and sometimes I try to
use my ICD2. I definitely consider myself in the business of using PIC
programmers! (I think the same - both selling and using - applies to
Olin).

> It is pretty clear from the
> market out there that a lot of buyers of PIC programmers "need" a ZIF
> socket.  Well, then, the astute supplier will deliver to that
> customer a ZIF socket.

Of course, and I do. In fact I am flabbergasted by the number of ZIF
sockets I sell. (I am also flabbergasted by the number of 'wire kits'
for breadboards I sell - I never ever use them. Wrong length, wrong
color, bent instead of straight, and too expensive. Give me a bundle of
telephone write and a stripper!)

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2005\02\03@145704 by John J. McDonough

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Wouter van Ooijen" <wouterspamKILLspamvoti.nl>
Subject: RE: [PIC] ZIF Sockets


> > I was going to write a nastynote in reponse to Wouter, but
> > thought better of it.
>
> Rethink, I am not easily offended, provided that you target my
> arguments, not my person :)

Well, Dutch guys tend to be pretty straight shooters, and that means living
there requires one to develop a thick skin!  (I worked in Utrecht for a
while -- probably my favorite city on the planet.  Really tough for an
American guy to get the hang of, though.)

> I sell my Wisp628, ICD2, a number of kitrus programmer kits, and a
> pickit1 clone. I also use my Wisp628 (in fact I often have five of them

Yeah, but you really need to wear a different hat.  It's nice to know that a
supplier uses his stuff, and is exposed to it's quirks, but really, when
behaving as a supplier one wants to concern himself with the customer, not
his personal needs.

> Of course, and I do. In fact I am flabbergasted by the number of ZIF
> sockets I sell. (I am also flabbergasted by the number of 'wire kits'

Yeah, see.  When you are wearing your "builder" hat, you probably don't have
a lot of use for ZIF sockets.  But obviously, when you are wearing your
"supplier" hat, you inventory what sells.

> for breadboards I sell - I never ever use them. Wrong length, wrong
> color, bent instead of straight, and too expensive.

How come guys who build stuff are always cheap?  (That includes me).  I have
this suspicion that a lot of people who buy this kind of stuff never
actually use it.

--McD


2005\02\03@145950 by Peter Johansson

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I really must say that *most* of what I've learned about PICs (aside
from the basics of writing code form them) has been from this very
list.  I am still a newbie myself, and I must admit that most of the
info you'll find in books or on the web, even if only a few years old,
is *terribly* out of date.

I happened to choose the SX-Tech toolkit as my introduction to
microcontrollers and I must say it was an excellent way to begin.
Jumping in with in-circuit programming *and* debugging got me up to
speed far quicker than I would have otherwise.  Sure, it cost a few
more bucks, but the time savings was immesurable, and I'm just a
hobbyist who isn't billing by the hour.

When I discovered the limitations of the SX compared to the PIC and
realized I'd want to use PICs for some of my ideas.  I got immediately
confused by the array of chips and programmers.  Thankfully I
discovered this list, and the wonderful people who got me up to speed.
I purchased an ICD2 during the holiday sale and submitted an order for
some PIC18F samples which should be arriving any day now.

Hopefully in the coming months I'll find the time to document all I've
learned and present an intruduction to PICs (as well as the SX) using
the *current* technology, which actually looks to be easier and in
some cases cheaper than what was available just a few years back.

-p.

John Ferrell writes:

> The answer to that is that most don't realize this. How about a reference
> or a write up?
>
> John Ferrell
> http://DixieNC.US
>
> {Original Message removed}

2005\02\03@152700 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> Well, Dutch guys tend to be pretty straight shooters, and
> that means living
> there requires one to develop a thick skin!  (I worked in
> Utrecht for a while

I work there (when I am not selling PIC stuff). I don't think it's a
remarkeable town as Dutch towns go, but not much wrong with it either.

> when
> behaving as a supplier one wants to concern himself with the
> customer, not his personal needs.

My own needs (including how they evolve over the years) are the best
zero-order estimate I have of my clients needs. Emails, newsgroups,
mailinglists etc. deliver the higher-order coefficients :)

> Yeah, see.  When you are wearing your "builder" hat, you
> probably don't have a lot of use for ZIF sockets.  

I use some, but mainly when I am programming PICs to sell.

> But obviously, when you are
> wearing your "supplier" hat, you inventory what sells.

Of course.

> > for breadboards I sell - I never ever use them. Wrong length, wrong
> > color, bent instead of straight, and too expensive.
>
> How come guys who build stuff are always cheap?  (That
> includes me).  I have
> this suspicion that a lot of people who buy this kind of stuff never
> actually use it.

To the contrary, lost of customers come back for more after the first
wire kit. For a shop it is a good article : it is consumed! Yes, I know
some people 'consume' (or should I say smoke?) PICs too.

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2005\02\03@152700 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> Hopefully in the coming months I'll find the time to document all I've
> learned and present an intruduction to PICs (as well as the SX) using
> the *current* technology, which actually looks to be easier and in
> some cases cheaper than what was available just a few years back.

There is a definite lack of 'beginners experience' pages with anything
above a 16C84, so you would do the future 'PIC community' a big favour
by writing such webpages!

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2005\02\03@160422 by Robin Abbott

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Why do we use them? Because the customers love 'em !

Robin Abbott

Forest Electronic Developments

01590 681511
+44 1590 681511 (phone/fax)

See our web pages : http://www.fored.co.uk



{Original Message removed}

2005\02\03@160630 by Robin Abbott

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Final note from me - thanks very much indeed for all the responses for
info on ZIF, as a relative newcomer it shows the strength of the PIC
community !

Robin Abbott

Forest Electronic Developments

01590 681511
+44 1590 681511 (phone/fax)

See our web pages : http://www.fored.co.uk



{Original Message removed}

2005\02\03@162652 by Wouter van Ooijen

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> Why do we use them? Because the customers love 'em !

??? The second sentence seems to be the appropriate answer to 'why do we
sell them?'. You probably mean 'why do we include them in our
programmers.' :)

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2005\02\03@163541 by Robin Abbott

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I hate it when Europeans are better at grammar than we are !!!

Robin Abbott

Forest Electronic Developments

01590 681511
+44 1590 681511 (phone/fax)

See our web pages : http://www.fored.co.uk



{Original Message removed}

2005\02\04@000823 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
On Feb 3, 2005, at 10:23 AM, Peter Johansson wrote:

> I wonder why people are using anything *but* ICSP

A lot of hobbyist projects are wire wrapped, assembled point to point,
on stripboard, or homemade PCBs.  In all of those cases, allowing for
ICSP can add more complexity than it removes.

I'm not sure why dip-clips and/or just jumpers aren't more popular.  
Perhaps
they're more expensive than ZIF sockets :-(

BillW

2005\02\04@030018 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> I'm not sure why dip-clips and/or just jumpers aren't more popular.  
> Perhaps they're more expensive than ZIF sockets :-(

DIP clips are in the same price leauge as ZIFs, but much easier to use.
You can have 10 projects running, clipping the DIP clip on the one that
needs reprogramming. But you need separate clips for at least small and
wide chips. I have separate clips for 40, 28, 18 and 8-pin chips. The
8-pin can also be used for 14-pin (or was it the other way round?).

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu




2005\02\04@035755 by Jan-Erik Soderholm

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William "Chops" Westfield wrote :

> A lot of hobbyist projects are wire wrapped, assembled point to point,
> on stripboard, or homemade PCBs.  In all of those cases, allowing for
> ICSP can add more complexity than it removes.
>
> I'm not sure why dip-clips...

But doesn't (in curcuit use of) dip-clips add the same
complexity (if any) as any other variant of ICSP ??
It's it just another, slightly different hardware solution, not ?

Jan-Erik.




2005\02\04@043859 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> > A lot of hobbyist projects are wire wrapped, assembled
> point to point,
> > on stripboard, or homemade PCBs.  In all of those cases,
> allowing for
> > ICSP can add more complexity than it removes.
> >
> > I'm not sure why dip-clips...
>
> But doesn't (in curcuit use of) dip-clips add the same
> complexity (if any) as any other variant of ICSP ??
> It's it just another, slightly different hardware solution, not ?

two different points:
1) your circuit must allow for ICSP (MCLR, RB6, RB7, etc)
2) the physical realisation must allow for connection of the programmer

A DIP clip makes 2) trivial (provided that you use a DIP chip). I think
the above OP talked about 2). Of course the 1) aspect remains.

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2005\02\04@044903 by Jan-Erik Soderholm

face picon face
Wouter van Ooijen wrote :

> > But doesn't (in curcuit use of) dip-clips add the same
> > complexity (if any) as any other variant of ICSP ??
> > It's it just another, slightly different hardware solution, not ?
>
> two different points:
> 1) your circuit must allow for ICSP (MCLR, RB6, RB7, etc)
> 2) the physical realisation must allow for connection of the
> programmer
> A DIP clip makes 2) trivial (provided that you use a DIP
> chip). I think the above OP talked about 2). Of course the
> 1) aspect remains.


Yep, that was what I was thinking about. I thought that 1) was
missing from the discussion, but I could have been clearer
about that in my former post... Sorry.

Jan-Erik.


>
> Wouter van Ooijen
>
> -- -------------------------------------------
> Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
> consultancy, development, PICmicro products
> docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu
>  
>
> --

2005\02\04@064931 by Vic Fraenckel

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I have followed this discussion because:

1. I am new to PICs and am in need of a programmer.
2. Am adding an ICSP interface to my first project's PCB

I have been looking at available programmers and find that the most viable
solution is the USB interfaced ICSPs. Since I am well into my first project
and have been laying out the PCB, I am making arrangements for a ICSP
interface (following the Microchp guidelines). However, I can understand
some reluctance for some people, especially newbees, to go the ICSP route,
because to use a out-of-circuit programmer  unburdens the user from the need
to be concerned that their interface is correct.  Using the stand alone
programmer relieves some of the "newness" anxiety for them.

Just my 2 cents.

Thanks

Vic


________________________________________________________

Victor Fraenckel - The Windman
victorf ATSIGN windreader DOTcom
KC2GUI

     Home of the WindReader Electronic Theodolite
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2005\02\04@070707 by Jan-Erik Soderholm

face picon face
Vic Fraenckel wrote :

> 1. I am new to PICs and am in need of a programmer.
> 2. Am adding an ICSP interface to my first project's PCB
>
> I have been looking at available programmers and find that
> the most viable  solution is the USB interfaced ICSPs.

Or, for added flexibility, a serial (RS232) based programmer
and an (opitional) RS232<->USB converter (if needed). Then
you're fine no matter what interface your PC happens to have.

Best Regards,
Jan-Erik.



2005\02\04@152154 by Peter Johansson

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face
Wouter van Ooijen writes:

> > > A lot of hobbyist projects are wire wrapped, assembled
> > point to point,
> > > on stripboard, or homemade PCBs.  In all of those cases,
> > allowing for
> > > ICSP can add more complexity than it removes.
> > >
> > > I'm not sure why dip-clips...
> >
> > But doesn't (in curcuit use of) dip-clips add the same
> > complexity (if any) as any other variant of ICSP ??
> > It's it just another, slightly different hardware solution, not ?
>
> two different points:
> 1) your circuit must allow for ICSP (MCLR, RB6, RB7, etc)
> 2) the physical realisation must allow for connection of the programmer
>
> A DIP clip makes 2) trivial (provided that you use a DIP chip). I think
> the above OP talked about 2). Of course the 1) aspect remains.

Here is what I plan to do once my circuits go from breadboard to PCB:

Solder in a single row of 8 header pins (or two rows of 4 pins)
something like this:


PIC         header pins
|           |
|           |   jumpers      ICSP
|           |   |            |
v           v   v            v

-----+
    |
VDD  |------*         O----- VDD
    |
MCLR |------* O-+     O----- MCLR
    |          |
    |   <--* O-+     O
    |
PGC  |------* O-+     O----- PGC
    |          |
    |   <--* O-+     O
    |
PGD  |------* O-+     O----- PGD
    |          |
    |   <--* O-+     O
    |
VSS  |------*         O----- VSS
    |
-----+

The basic deal is that the programming is *physically* isolated from
the rest of the circuit.  In operation, jumpers are used on the pins
to send MCLR/PGC/PGD to route to operational functionality.  For
programming, these jumpers are removed and the ICSP is plugged into
the DIP/SIP header.  Jumpers could also be used to isolate VDD/VSS,
but I'm not sure this will be necessary is most cases.

As a *hobbyist*, though, I'd probably try to select a uC with enough
extra pins so that I wouldn't need the jumpers at all, and could just
leave the programmer in-place for both programming and debugging.

Note that this is just a *plan* and not something I have actually
implemented, so comments are of course very much welcomed!

-p.

2005\02\04@153627 by Chetan Bhargava

picon face
That is true, I ordered a similar socket from them and it is a
counterfeit. Although it is an Australian Company they ship from
Thailand. Their prices are okay but shipping charges are good.
Initially they used to ship chips in Styrofoam pieces!!! I had to
convince them that Styrofoam is highly static !!!.

My 2 cents...


{Quote hidden}

--

Chetan Bhargava
http://www.bhargavaz.net

2005\02\04@154130 by Jan-Erik Soderholm

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Hi.
Note that in many/some cases, depending on whats connected
to the PGC/PGD pins, they can be shared between the ICSP
programer and the rest of the curcuit. Just as one example,
if one or both of the lines are feeding a indicator LED (with not *to*
much current drawn) it (the LED) will just flicker during the programming.
So it very much depends on the rest of the curcuit.

With that said, I think your thought isn't bad at all. It's a
generic solution that should work more or less what's
connected to the programming pins.

Regards,
Jan-Erik.

Peter Johansson wrote :

{Quote hidden}

2005\02\04@160219 by Jan-Erik Soderholm

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Chetan Bhargava wrote :

> That is true, I ordered a similar socket from them and it is a
> counterfeit...
>
> My 2 cents...
>
>
> > I could swear that this one :
> > http://www.futurlec.com/Sockets/ZIFU40.shtml
> > is the same as those that I have a box of, and that has
> > been verified by 3M as counterfeit.

Hi.
An update...
I talked to the 3M office in Sweden today (Friday).

I'm going to get a formal letter from them, but the general
message is that "you can *not* sell them".

According to the guy (who have been in contact with the 3M HQ
in the US on this issue) there was a large batch of fake 3M sockets
made about 2 years ago in China. This batch is still sold all around
the world, and 3M/US are busy trying to chase all down.

Now, with that said, if you browse around the Internet a while,
you'll find these sockets everywhere. Futurelec have them. So have
(had) DYI in Hongkong. And the guy on eBay I got mine from  (last
summer) are still selling them (but have removed "3M" from the
descriptive text after I notified him on the issue) :
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3871714456.

Anyway, I'll probably try to get rid of the batch I have "silently"...

Jan-Erik.



2005\02\04@163314 by Wouter van Ooijen

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> Here is what I plan to do once my circuits go from breadboard to PCB:
> (snip)
> The basic deal is that the programming is *physically* isolated from
> the rest of the circuit.
> (snip)
> As a *hobbyist*, though, I'd probably try to select a uC with enough
> extra pins so that I wouldn't need the jumpers at all, and could just
> leave the programmer in-place for both programming and debugging.

I seldom find it necesarry to 'reserve' the ICSP pins. The rule of thumb
is that when you connect a suitable resistor between each of the PIC
pins PGC, PGD and (on LVP-enabled PICs) PGM and the rest of the circuit
you are OK. For MCLR just a resistor to +5 V will be OK. The minimum
values of these resistors depend on the driving power of the programmer
you use, for my Wisp628 I would say 10k for the PGC/PGD/PGM pins
(although you might get away with 470 ohm), and 33k for the MCLR
pull-up. For a HVP programmer that does not pull PGM low you must take
care of that yourself, just make sure that the pin is low when the PIC
does not drive it. In most cases a 10k pull-down will do it.

Note that some PICs require the infamous 'VPP before VDD/VCC' sequence
to enter program mode. For most of these chips (all?) this will only be
the case if you configure the chip to have internal MCLR, so you might
want to avoid this.

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2005\02\04@170121 by Peter Johansson

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face
Jan-Erik Soderholm writes:

> I'm going to get a formal letter from them, but the general
> message is that "you can *not* sell them".
>
> According to the guy (who have been in contact with the 3M HQ
> in the US on this issue) there was a large batch of fake 3M sockets
> made about 2 years ago in China. This batch is still sold all around
> the world, and 3M/US are busy trying to chase all down.

Is there a technical problem with these sockets or is the problem with
patents and/or the forged 3M logo?

-p.

2005\02\04@171815 by Jan-Erik Soderholm

face picon face
Peter Johansson wrote :

> Jan-Erik Soderholm writes:
>
> > I'm going to get a formal letter from them, but the general
> > message is that "you can *not* sell them".
> >
> > According to the guy (who have been in contact with the 3M HQ
> > in the US on this issue) there was a large batch of fake 3M sockets
> > made about 2 years ago in China. This batch is still sold all around
> > the world, and 3M/US are busy trying to chase all down.
>
> Is there a technical problem with these sockets or is the problem with
> patents and/or the forged 3M logo?

Why would 3M care about any technical problems, if they was *not*
made to look like 3M parts ?

- A fake 3M logo.
- The 3M registred trademark "TEXTOOL" is spelled "TFXTOOL".
- The color is nearly, but not exactly, the same as on the real 3M parts..
- The "part no" looks like a 3M part.no ("nnn-nnnn"), but have never been
 used on any real 3M parts (according to 3M).

It's obviouse that you are ment to *think* they are real 3M parts.

Now, 3M says they are "junk", but that doesn't imply that there have to
be any technical problems for the normal hobbyist...

Jan-Erik.



2005\02\05@033314 by Chetan Bhargava

picon face
The one I bought broke within a week. The spring loaded arm lost the tension :-(

> Is there a technical problem with these sockets or is the problem with
> patents and/or the forged 3M logo?
>

--

Chetan Bhargava
http://www.bhargavaz.net

2005\02\10@170226 by Howard Winter

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flavicon
picon face
Wouter,

On Fri, 4 Feb 2005 09:00:16 +0100, Wouter van Ooijen wrote:
> DIP clips are in the same price leauge as ZIFs, but much easier to use.
> You can have 10 projects running, clipping the DIP clip on the one that
> needs reprogramming. But you need separate clips for at least small and
> wide chips. I have separate clips for 40, 28, 18 and 8-pin chips. The
> 8-pin can also be used for 14-pin (or was it the other way round?).

Do you sell DIP clips?  I've been looking at your web site since I read this and I can't find them there under
"Connectors" or "IC Sockets" or "Other Products".  

(And yes, since the "top 8" of the 14-pin PICS are the same as the 8-pin, an 8-pin clip would work on a 14-pin
chip as long as you get pin 1 in the right place!).

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2005\02\11@033142 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> Do you sell DIP clips?

No. Maybe someone can find me a nice Chinese source of counterfeit DIP
clips ;)

I do have a few 40-pin clips with one pin missing. It is pin 1 according
to the dot, so to be usefull for ICSP you must turn them around (pin 1 =
MCLR). But too few (~20) to put in my webshop.

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


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