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'[PIC] Which PIC? 16F, 18F or 32?'
2008\12\05@013119 by solarwind

picon face
Hey all,

I'm trying to build a scientific RPN calculator using a PIC microcontroller.
It will be battery powered and for use in school. I'll be using it with an
HD44780 based LCD character display and my own keypad.

Basically, I'll need enough flash and RAM on the PIC to store all the
functions a scientific calculator would have (sin, cos, tan, asin, acos,
atan, log, ln, ee, e^x, pow, sqrt and so on). As for the second requirement,
I'll need it to be as low power as possible as it will run on small
batteries.

Also, I'll be programming in C using HI-TECH's highly optimizing C compiler
for the PIC. This compiler is amazing.

I've already looked at the PIC 16F series. These seem to use low power but
I'm scared that they will not have enough flash (and possibly RAM) for my
application.
Then I looked at the 18F series. These also seem to be low power and have a
lot more RAM and flash.
I was then tempted by the PIC32 series. These chips look perfect for my
project. I'm now only concerned about the power usage of these things. Does
anyone know the power usage for the PIC32 series?

Anyway, I need advice. Which series of microcontroller should I chose for my
project?

--
..::[ solarwind ]::..

2008\12\05@023615 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 2:31 PM, solarwind <spam_OUTx.solarwind.xTakeThisOuTspamgmail.com> wrote:
> Hey all,
>
> I'm trying to build a scientific RPN calculator using a PIC microcontroller.
> It will be battery powered and for use in school. I'll be using it with an
> HD44780 based LCD character display and my own keypad.
>
> I was then tempted by the PIC32 series. These chips look perfect for my
> project. I'm now only concerned about the power usage of these things. Does
> anyone know the power usage for the PIC32 series?
>
> Anyway, I need advice. Which series of microcontroller should I chose for my
> project?

www.avrfreaks.net/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=71281
So you have already did some study.

You can go to Microchip PIC32 website to do more research.
http://www.microchip.com/pic32


Xiaofan

2008\12\05@031806 by solarwind

picon face
I'm also asking in a lot of different places to get different opinions. I
don't want to make mistakes. The good people at the AVR forum showed me
roughly how much space I'll be needing, not including my own functions and
RPN logic and possible graphing features. The main concern now is the power
usage. So how much power does the PIC32 use?

On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 3:15 AM, solarwind <.....x.solarwind.xKILLspamspam@spam@gmail.com> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

>> --

2008\12\05@032238 by solarwind

picon face
Already looked on the PIC32 site, couldn't find the power usage of the
PIC32.

On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 2:36 AM, Xiaofan Chen <EraseMExiaofancspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTgmail.com> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> -

2008\12\05@034344 by Randy Glenn

flavicon
face
Page 597 of the PIC32MX3XX/4XX datasheet shows the operating current:

http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/DeviceDoc/61143E.pdf

That doesn't tell you the whole story though, as is outlined in the
notes on that page.

-Randy

On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 3:17 AM, solarwind <@spam@x.solarwind.xKILLspamspamgmail.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2008\12\05@040307 by Danny Miller

flavicon
face
How many features?  How fast?
A 16F could implement the basic functions.  I assume there are floating
point routines for the 16F available for download somewhere.

18F does have the C compiler and all... it's not a bad idea.  There
aren't many 16F compilers because they're not very good- because the 16F
series lacks some features which makes them difficult to compile for
efficiently.

How much battery voltage do you have, and how many batts?  The HD44780
display alone will probably take a bit much for button batteries.  But
the question is also voltage.  A 5v display needs 4 alkaline batts
unless you use a boost regulator.

One thing to understand is you won't be able to compete with a regular
calc for power consumption.  Those things have the integrated LCD drive
and all and you will be taking 10x-100x more power with the best of designs.

dsPIC30F takes a LOT of power.
dsPIC33F takes a lot less, runs on 3.3v, but it's still probably too
much.  And IIRC they have really bad Sleep current relative to say 18F,
and that will hurt you a lot.

There's also the Microchip C18 compiler.  Personally, I have a big
project that ran much slower on Microchip's C18 than it did with HiTech
PICC18.  But I suspect that was a conflict with my coding style
somewhere, I don't know, I did have the optimizations working and all.  
C18 is supposed to be as fast or faster performance, I've used it a lot
but have never compared the two other than that initial project.  I'd
recommend C18 over PICC18, just don't see a compelling reason to go
third-party.

Danny

solarwind wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2008\12\05@041457 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
Not sure that you would need to go to a PIC32 for your calculator
application. A Pic 24 would be adequate I suspect.

Also to bootstrap yourself up you could look at the Explorer16 schematics
and software. The Explorer16 has exactly the type of display you are looking
at, fitted to it, and the demonstration software for the PIC24 PIM modules
has the LCD software available.

Another loop to look at is the book "Programming 16-bit Microcontrollers in
C - Learning to Fly the PIC24" which is referenced from the Microchip PIC24
pages. The writer of that also does an LCD and PC Keyboard interface. The
authors website also has updated software on it, from that supplied on the
CD that comes with the book.

2008\12\05@053828 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
On 2008-12-05 07:02:35, Danny Miller wrote:

> Personally, I have a big project that ran much slower on Microchip's C18
> than it did with HiTech PICC18.  [...] I'd recommend C18 over PICC18,
> just don't see a compelling reason to go third-party.

??? :)

Gerhard

2008\12\05@070454 by olin piclist

face picon face
solarwind wrote:
> I'm trying to build a scientific RPN calculator using a PIC
> microcontroller. It will be battery powered and for use in school.

If you just want to use it, then this is silly.  Get a HP 33S, which I think
is the only RPN scientific calculator they still make.

Unless you're doing this for the experience, this is a waste of time that
will result in something much more klunky and less usable than the 33s,
which can be had for under $50 if I remember right.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2008\12\05@071756 by olin piclist

face picon face
Danny Miller wrote:
> A 16F could implement the basic functions.

Then you need take another look at all the things a real scientific
calculator does.  There are many trancendental functions that will require
large code, even with the assist of lookup tables.  Either way, a lot of
program memory is required.  Even with a large external ROM to store lookup
tables, I seriously doubt you could implement all the features of a real
scientific calculator in 8K instruction words.

> I assume there are floating
> point routines for the 16F available for download somewhere.

I don't, at least not the type required for implementing a calculator.
Calculators usually do their math in wide decimal, something like 14 digits.
Even if doing it in binary, you want at least 48 bits to meet "scientific
calculator" level specs.  Maybe someone has developed floating point
routines with 48 bit mantissas, but most likely not.

Real microcontroller applications rarely need more than 16 bits mantissa.  I
have floating point routines that run on a PIC 16, but they use 24 bits, 16
for the mantissa, 7 for the exponent, and 1 sign bit.  That's all that was
needed in the 100 or so PIC applications I've done so far.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2008\12\05@075640 by Thomas C Sefranek

flavicon
face
Bahhh!

HP makes and sells at least 4 calculators with RPN option.
h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/us/en/sm/WF04a/215348-215348-64232-20037-215351.html
 *
 |  __O    Thomas C. Sefranek  TakeThisOuTtcsEraseMEspamspam_OUTcmcorp.com
 |_-\<,_   Amateur Radio Operator: WA1RHP
 (*)/ (*)  Bicycle mobile on 145.41, 448.625 MHz

ARRL Instructor, Technical Specialist, VE Contact.
hamradio.cmcorp.com/inventory/Inventory.html
http://www.harvardrepeater.org
{Original Message removed}

2008\12\05@081701 by Tamas Rudnai

face picon face
One should make an RPN calc with a Forth extention :-) Anyway, those HP
calculators are awesome!

Tamas



On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 12:55 PM, Thomas C Sefranek <RemoveMEwa1rhpspamTakeThisOuTarrl.net> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> {Original Message removed}

2008\12\05@083523 by Mongol Herdsman

picon face
solarwind wrote:
> I'm also asking in a lot of different places to get different opinions. I
> don't want to make mistakes. The good people at the AVR forum showed me
> roughly how much space I'll be needing, not including my own functions and
> RPN logic and possible graphing features. The main concern now is the power
> usage. So how much power does the PIC32 use?

Time you've spent asking good people, possibly would be better spent
on programming you IPhone, HTC Touch or whatever SmartPhone/PDA you
owe.

Regards.

2008\12\05@123353 by M. Adam Davis

face picon face
On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 1:31 AM, solarwind <EraseMEx.solarwind.xspamgmail.com> wrote:
> Hey all,
>
> I'm trying to build a scientific RPN calculator using a PIC microcontroller.
> It will be battery powered and for use in school. I'll be using it with an
> HD44780 based LCD character display and my own keypad.

Actually, why don't you just build or buy one of these:

http://www.calcwatch.com/index.html

It's an open source (software, schematic) PIC24 based scientific RPN
calculator in a watch form factor.

So you can build one yourself, and then modify the source code as
needed for your own purposes.  When he has them in stock, they're only
$100, which is far less than what you'll spend building your own.

>From the site:
----------
The uWatch is an RPN and Algebraic scientific calculator watch that
you can build yourself.
The software is OPEN SOURCE under the GPL license.

Specifications:

   *      Processor - 16 bit Microchip PIC24FJ64GA004
   *      Program memory - 64KB of Flash
   *      SRAM - 8KB
   *      Available user EEPROM memory - 64KB
   *      Calculator modes - 4 Level HP style RPN stack, or Casio
(pre-VPAM) style Algebraic with 6 level of parentheses
   *      Precision - 64bit IEEE floating point. 9 digit display + exponent
   *      Programming - Macro style keystroke programming mode. 60 x
1024 steps.
   *      Time and date display. Selectable 12/24hr format
   *      Clock Speed - 250KHz normal operation, 32.768KHz sleep
mode. 8MHz maximum speed.
   *      Display - 16 character x 2 line dot matrix
   *      Sleep mode - LCD switches of after timeout to increase
battery life. Picks up where it left off.
   *      Backlight - Yellow LED (quite dim)
   *      Battery - single or dual lithium CR2032
   *      Battery life - 100hrs+ operation. 1 year+ in sleep mode.
   *      Size - 54mm x 43mm x 20mm(at the thickest point)
   *      Watch band - any standard 20-22mm watch band. Standard 22mm
watch spring bars.
   *      Programming Interface - Microchip ICSP. Compatible with
MPLAB ICD2 or compatible programmer.
   *      Serial port - UART based universal serial port. RS232 and
IrDA compatible with optional interface circuits.
   *      Language - All source code written with the free MPLAB C30 compiler
----------

-Adam

--
Please rate and vote for my contest entry:
mypic32.com/web/guest/profiles?profileID=50331

2008\12\05@135638 by solarwind

picon face
Thank you Randy Glenn and Danny Miller. I don't want to go with a 16 bit
chip. HI-TECH's compilers are really good. I stuck a lot of scientific
functions using the PICC compiler for PIC 16 in less than 7K code myself
using their compiler. Floating point.

If I wanted to buy one, I wouldn't have consulted you guys.

>Mongol Herdsman:
>Time you've spent asking good people, possibly would be better spent
>on programming you IPhone, HTC Touch or whatever SmartPhone/PDA you
>owe.

>Regards.

With attitude like that, you're probably right, except I don't own any such
device.

And I'm also well aware of the calc watch and HP's RPN calculators (I own a
41CV). I just want to build one. I'm asking for help from you guys, not your
permission or discouragement.

Thanks again Randy Glenn and Danny Miller for your posts.

On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 12:33 PM, M. Adam Davis <RemoveMEstienmanEraseMEspamEraseMEgmail.com> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> -

2008\12\05@141757 by solarwind

picon face
Whoever said just 8K? My pic18 has 64K. That good enough sir?

On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 7:19 AM, Olin Lathrop <RemoveMEolin_piclistTakeThisOuTspamspamembedinc.com>wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> -

2008\12\05@141921 by solarwind

picon face
How much you wanna bet it'll be more clunky and less usable? I've written
most of the code, made the keypad, assembled the LCD, mounted it onto the
case. All that's left to do is make my decision about the microcontroller
and mount it.

On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 7:06 AM, Olin Lathrop <EraseMEolin_piclistspamspamspamBeGoneembedinc.com>wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> -

2008\12\05@143717 by solarwind

picon face
Bingo! I would do something like this:

"The LPRC oscillator is separate from the FRC. It oscil-
lates at a nominal frequency of 31.25 kHz. The LPRC
oscillator is the clock source for the Power-up Timer
(PWRT), Watchdog Timer (WDT), Fail Safe Clock Mon-
itor (FSCM) and PLL reference circuits. It may also be
used to provide a low-frequency clock source option for
the device in those applications where power
consumption is critical, and timing accuracy is not
required."

Then do something like this:

http://pastebin.com/f4ee1f4fc



On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 2:19 PM, solarwind <RemoveMEx.solarwind.xKILLspamspamgmail.com> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

>> --

2008\12\05@145303 by olin piclist

face picon face
solarwind wrote:
> With attitude like that, you're probably right, except I don't own
> any such device.
>
> And I'm also well aware of the calc watch and HP's RPN calculators (I
> own a 41CV). I just want to build one. I'm asking for help from you
> guys, not your permission or discouragement.

With attitude like that you're going to piss people off that you are seeking
a favor from.  If people think you're doing something silly, they can and
probably will say so.  Get over it.  Sometimes we get people here who really
don't know better when they ask for something silly.

You could have saved yourself those type of responses if you had been more
clear in the first place.  You originally said it would be "for use in
school".  In other words, you want to *use* the calculator, as apposed to
building it for a assignment or because you want the experience.  Given that
as the purpose, "go buy one" is absolutely the correct answer.  If you had
stated the purpose correctly, you would have gotten rather different
answers.  People responded to your post correctly.  It was you who screwed
up, so grow up and stop whining about the answers you got as a result.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2008\12\05@150133 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
solarwind wrote:
> Whoever said just 8K? My pic18 has 64K. That good enough sir?

Certainly enough, but also totally irrelevant, because it was a reponse to

>>> A 16F could implement the basic functions.

--

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu

2008\12\05@150240 by olin piclist

face picon face
solarwind wrote:
> Whoever said just 8K? My pic18 has 64K. That good enough sir?

Learn how to reply properly to email, and you won't make this mistake again.
By top posting, you let yourself loose the context (and made it harder for
others to follow the flow too).  Here is is what your post would have looked
like if written properly:

{Quote hidden}

So hopefully you can now see for yourself that the answer to your first
question is "Danny Miller", and that my comment was clearly in regards to a
PIC 16.  Note that the PIC 16 (14 bit midrange core) is limited to 8K words
of program memory.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2008\12\05@152453 by solarwind

picon face
Haha, sorry for any confusion due to 'top posting'. I'm not used to mailing
lists. Anyway, I'm probably going to try both PIC 18 and 32. I've designed
my system in a modular way, so switching chips is very very simple. I'm
going to run a few tests to see which one yields better battery life. I have
4 AA 1A/h batteries in here so this should work. Not bad seeing as some of
the TI graphing calculators yield lower battery life than my setup. But then
again, they are using ARM chips.

On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 3:02 PM, Olin Lathrop <spamBeGoneolin_piclistSTOPspamspamEraseMEembedinc.com>wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> -

2008\12\05@152649 by solarwind

picon face
I think he's trying to say that HI-TECH's compiler generates faster code.

On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 5:38 AM, Gerhard Fiedler <KILLspamgelistsspamBeGonespamgmail.com> wrote:

> On 2008-12-05 07:02:35, Danny Miller wrote:
>
> > Personally, I have a big project that ran much slower on Microchip's C18
> > than it did with HiTech PICC18.  [...] I'd recommend C18 over PICC18,
> > just don't see a compelling reason to go third-party.
>
> ??? :)
>
> Gerhard
> -

2008\12\05@153702 by olin piclist

face picon face
part 1 635 bytes content-type:text/plain; (decoded 7bit)

solarwind wrote:
> How much you wanna bet it'll be more clunky and less usable? I've
> written most of the code, made the keypad, assembled the LCD, mounted
> it onto the case. All that's left to do is make my decision about the
> microcontroller and mount it.

Take a look at the attached picture and behold the best calculator ever
produced in volume.  That one is 26 years old and still ticking.  It's 127 x
80 x 15 mm big.  The 33s is a bit bigger and in the vertical format.  I'll
be real impressed if you can make anything as light, small, rugged, and low
power as either of them.


part 2 14939 bytes content-type:image/jpeg; (decode)


part 3 35 bytes content-type:text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
(decoded 7bit)

2008\12\05@154124 by olin piclist

face picon face
solarwind wrote:
> Haha, sorry for any confusion due to 'top posting'.

But you just did it again.  Please learn to use email correctly.

A: Top posters

Q: Who are the most annoying people on email lists?

********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2008\12\05@155129 by solarwind

picon face
But HP is a multi billion dollar company. All I have is a few pennies
left over from lunch :(

On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 3:36 PM, Olin Lathrop <EraseMEolin_piclistspamEraseMEembedinc.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -

2008\12\05@155235 by solarwind

picon face
Haha! I've seen that one before somewhere. This is how gmail has it by
default though. I'll try and remember next time.

...


Doh! I did it again, didn't I?

On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 3:41 PM, Olin Lathrop <@spam@olin_piclist@spam@spamspam_OUTembedinc.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -

2008\12\05@155430 by solarwind

picon face
Also, you must recall the definition of usable. My system is not any
*less* usable than theirs. It's just a bit different. I am, however,
trying to mimic the layout of my HP41CV, which is pretty "clunky" by
today's definitions.

On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 3:36 PM, Olin Lathrop <spamBeGoneolin_piclistspamKILLspamembedinc.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -

2008\12\05@155750 by solarwind

picon face
On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 3:54 PM, solarwind <.....x.solarwind.xspam_OUTspamgmail.com> wrote:
> Also, you must recall the definition of usable. My system is not any
> *less* usable than theirs. It's just a bit different. I am, however,
> trying to mimic the layout of my HP41CV, which is pretty "clunky" by
> today's definitions.
>
> On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 3:36 PM, Olin Lathrop <TakeThisOuTolin_piclist.....spamTakeThisOuTembedinc.com> wrote:
>> solarwind wrote:
>>> How much you wanna bet it'll be more clunky and less usable? I've
>>> written most of the code, made the keypad, assembled the LCD, mounted
>>> it onto the case. All that's left to do is make my decision about the
>>> microcontroller and mount it.
>>
>> Take a look at the attached picture and behold the best calculator ever
>> produced in volume.  That one is 26 years old and still ticking.  It's 127 x
>> 80 x 15 mm big.  The 33s is a bit bigger and in the vertical format.  I'll
>> be real impressed if you can make anything as light, small, rugged, and low
>> power as either of them.
>>
>> --

2008\12\05@160234 by Mark Rages

face picon face
On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 2:51 PM, solarwind <TakeThisOuTx.solarwind.xKILLspamspamspamgmail.com> wrote:
> But HP is a multi billion dollar company. All I have is a few pennies
> left over from lunch :(

Read this:  http://tinyurl.com/5azvf8 (pdf file)
--
Mark Rages, Engineer
Midwest Telecine LLC
.....markragesspamRemoveMEmidwesttelecine.com

2008\12\05@160733 by Danny Miller

flavicon
face
I'm admitting that in my ONE test, HiTech generated faster code, but I
think it's an anomaly.  C18 is supposed to be at least comparable though
I'm not sure who to listen to there.

C18 has a smarter overall architecture anyways, IMHO.  The differences
are subtle.  IIRC one of the weird things with PICC18 was that you could
declare, use, and pass ROM constant data pointers the same was as you do
RAM pointers.  That sounds convenient at first but then you wonder how
that works since RAM and ROM pointers would be accessed by completely
different means.  The thing is they pulled some funky tricks under the
hood to make it work that way that cause problems in some circumstances,
probably slows it down a lot of the time too.

So I'm not sure if HiTech would be faster or slower, but I think C18 was
smarter overall anyways.  And you can download Student Edition free from
Microchip.  I'd need to see a compelling reason to drop it for a third
party compiler.

Danny

solarwind wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>> --

2008\12\05@163418 by solarwind

picon face
On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 4:02 PM, Mark Rages <spamBeGonemarkrages@spam@spamspam_OUTgmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 2:51 PM, solarwind <TakeThisOuTx.solarwind.xspamspamgmail.com> wrote:
>> But HP is a multi billion dollar company. All I have is a few pennies
>> left over from lunch :(
>
> Read this:  http://tinyurl.com/5azvf8 (pdf file)
> --
> Mark Rages, Engineer
> Midwest Telecine LLC
> markragesEraseMEspammidwesttelecine.com
> -

2008\12\05@163455 by solarwind

picon face
On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 4:07 PM, Danny Miller <RemoveMEdannymEraseMEspamspam_OUTaustin.rr.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

I really like the HI-TIDE IDE. Does C18 work with HI-TIDE?

--
..::[ solarwind ]::..

2008\12\05@163927 by olin piclist

face picon face
Your previous message:

solarwind wrote:
> Haha! I've seen that one before somewhere. This is how gmail has it by
> default though. I'll try and remember next time.

But you still didn't this time.

This message:
> Also, you must recall the definition <blah, blah, blah>

This is next time, and it's *still* top posted.  Are you ever going to learn
to use email correctly?


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2008\12\05@164756 by solarwind

picon face
There must be a reason gmail defaults to posting at the top. There is
no standard for emailing, if I remember correctly :)

On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 4:39 PM, Olin Lathrop <@spam@olin_piclistRemoveMEspamEraseMEembedinc.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -

2008\12\05@164839 by solarwind

picon face
And can we please stop this pointless exchange of indirect insults?
Look, I'm sorry for being a jerk. I'll stop.

On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 4:47 PM, solarwind <EraseMEx.solarwind.xspam@spam@gmail.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>> --

2008\12\05@165615 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
On 2008-12-05 19:34:38, solarwind wrote:

> I really like the HI-TIDE IDE. Does C18 work with HI-TIDE?

Probably not. AFAIK HiTide is a custom adaptation of Eclipse to work with
the HiTech compiler. I don't think they would make it work with one of
their competitor's compilers :) Also some of the finer details of the
syntax seem to be different.

But you can always try to adapt it (or Eclipse itself) ...

Gerhard

2008\12\05@165731 by olin piclist

face picon face
solarwind wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2008\12\05@170204 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> There must be a reason gmail defaults to posting at the top.

There is a reason for everything (for some value of reason), but that
does not make everything right.


--

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu

2008\12\05@170644 by olin piclist

face picon face
solarwind wrote:
> I really like the HI-TIDE IDE. Does C18 work with HI-TIDE?

C18 is Micrcohip's compiler, so it works with Microchip's IDE, which is
MPLAB.  I strongly suggest you stick to the free tools available from
Microchip.  First, they're free.  Second, there much much more widely used
than all the rest combined, so you will get help with them more readily.
Third, they're actually reasonably good.

I think you should step back from your project a bit and re-examine the
scope.  Now that it's clear you are designing a calculator for the learning
experience, it's not so important that it be low power, small, light weight,
etc.

Doing a full blown calculator is a very large project, one which you have no
chance of finishing any time soon.  So I would pick a subset you maybe can
finish and have a result you can be proud of.  Don't worry about low power,
size, etc.  Just getting something that can do basic math will be a
significant accomplishment.  Then add the more fancy math functions, like
SIN, COS, SQRT, etc, etc.  That will keep you busy for a while, and you'll
learn a lot in the process.  Don't worry about something you will eventually
use as a real calculator.  Show your parents what you've done on your own
and tell them you deserve a HP 33s for graduation to use for real in
college.  Oh, and have them throw in a nice laptop while they're at it.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2008\12\05@171139 by olin piclist

face picon face
solarwind wrote:
> There must be a reason gmail defaults to posting at the top. There is
> no standard for emailing, if I remember correctly :)

There is if you don't want to annoy people, which you are now doing.  Loose
the attitude if you want free help here.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2008\12\05@172603 by solarwind

picon face
On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 5:06 PM, Olin Lathrop <RemoveMEolin_piclist@spam@spamspamBeGoneembedinc.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -

2008\12\05@173815 by Bob Blick

face
flavicon
face

On Fri, 5 Dec 2008 01:31:03 -0500, "solarwind" <.....x.solarwind.x@spam@spamEraseMEgmail.com>
said:

> HD44780 based LCD character display and my own keypad.

5 volts required.

> I'll need it to be as low power as possible as it will run on small
> batteries.

If you shut down when idle then most processors are comparable in terms
of power usage, since a processor that uses less power will generally
take more time to do the calculation. This is a generalization, but
probably good enough.

However the 32 series, even with the clock shut off, probably has much
higher quiescent current drain.

> Also, I'll be programming in C using HI-TECH's highly optimizing C
> compiler
> for the PIC. This compiler is amazing.

The free version will not be big enough for your project.

> I've already looked at the PIC 16F series. These seem to use low power
> but
> I'm scared that they will not have enough flash (and possibly RAM) for my
> application.

True, especially if you are programming in C. All the bank switching
gobbles up ROM in the 8K 16F chips.

> Then I looked at the 18F series. These also seem to be low power and have
> a
> lot more RAM and flash.

This would be my choice of the three lines you have preselected.

> I was then tempted by the PIC32 series. These chips look perfect for my
> project. I'm now only concerned about the power usage of these things.
> Does
> anyone know the power usage for the PIC32 series?

They are 3.3 volt chips so that complicates things, you need 5 volts for
the display.

The power supply complexity and its quiescent current are the biggest
challenges to a battery operated device.

If you use an 18F pic you can run both it and the display off 5 volts.
And if you can tolerate varying display contrast, you can get away with
using
just batteries, no voltage regulator. The PIC can shut off the display
and stop the clock when it's done and then you basically use zero power.
Then it wakes up when you hit the "any" key. No power switch required.

I have a cat door that has run on the same set of 4 D cells for 6 years,
driving a PIC and a motor. No voltage regulator. Another one that uses 4
AA cells needs new batteries every year and a half or so. Yes, with
fresh batteries it violates Vmax. But I'm not selling them so I don't
care about a 10% failure rate. And it would run just as well on 3 cells.

Cheerful regards,

Bob

--
http://www.fastmail.fm - One of many happy users:
 http://www.fastmail.fm/docs/quotes.html

2008\12\05@174806 by olin piclist

face picon face
solarwind wrote:
>>
>>
>> ********************************************************************
>> Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
>> (978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.
>> --

2008\12\05@174830 by Jinx

face picon face
> However the 32 series, even with the clock shut off, probably has much
> higher quiescent current drain.

One of my thoughts was to use a small nW, like a 12F6xx, as a power
switch for the main uC. Typical SLEEP for a nW in a power-saving
configuration is < 20nA

2008\12\05@175915 by solarwind

picon face
On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 5:47 PM, Olin Lathrop <.....olin_piclistRemoveMEspamembedinc.com> wrote:
> solarwind wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> ********************************************************************
>>> Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
>>> (978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.
>>> --

2008\12\05@181830 by olin piclist

face picon face
solarwind wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 5:47 PM, Olin Lathrop
> <.....olin_piclistSTOPspamspam@spam@embedinc.com> wrote:
>> solarwind wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ********************************************************************
>>>> Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts,
>>>> http://www.embedinc.com/products (978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC
>>>> consultants since 2000. --

2008\12\05@181847 by Mongol Herdsman

picon face
solarwind wrote:
>>Time you've spent asking good people, possibly would be better spent
>>on programming you IPhone, HTC Touch or whatever SmartPhone/PDA you
>
> With attitude like that, you're probably right, except I don't own any such
> device.

Don't waste time, go get some billable job at local McDonalds and buy
one and program it to do complex math. You may even create simple
mobile web application to do the math to impress schoolgirls. Decorate
the web calculator properly :-) By the way, the cheapest internet
enabled mobile is about US$100, if I am not mistaken.

If you think you need to lean to PICs, better choose not math project,
but rather some PIC-based sort of sound-to-light project and ask a
girl to help you testing it :-)

2008\12\05@182408 by Mongol Herdsman

picon face
solarwind wrote:
> I'm sorry, I honestly don't know what you mean by trimming

He is not religious, I beleive, don't worry.

2008\12\05@182612 by Joe Bento

face
flavicon
face
solarwind wrote:
>> I'm sorry, I honestly don't know what you mean by trimming.
>>    
Remove any extra "fluff" not pertinent to the conversation.

Joe


2008\12\05@182658 by Marcel Birthelmer

flavicon
face
>
>
> Obviously (hopefully) you undertand that there is one more level of ">"
> above than your post would actually have, since I'm quoting it within my
> message.
>
>
I think since he's using gmail, all he sees is a purple "Show quoted text"
after sending a reply, so it's easy not to be annoyed by lots of extra
headers, footers, etc.
- Marcel

2008\12\05@182704 by solarwind

picon face
Ok, I'll be as clear and concise as possible from now on.

2008\12\05@184107 by solarwind

picon face
On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 6:18 PM, Mongol Herdsman
<inner.mongolia.herdEraseMEspam@spam@gmail.com> wrote:
> Don't waste time, go get some billable job at local McDonalds and buy
> one and program it to do complex math. You may even create simple
> mobile web application to do the math to impress schoolgirls. Decorate
> the web calculator properly :-) By the way, the cheapest internet
> enabled mobile is about US$100, if I am not mistaken.
>
> If you think you need to lean to PICs, better choose not math project,
> but rather some PIC-based sort of sound-to-light project and ask a
> girl to help you testing it :-)

What? Are you so disgustingly cynical that you believe all I want to
accomplish is to impress school girls? Wow, I thought you couldn't
sink any lower.


--
..::[ solarwind ]::..

2008\12\05@184144 by olin piclist

face picon face
Mongol Herdsman wrote:
> If you think you need to lean to PICs, better choose not math project,

I disagree.  I think making a calculator with a PIC is a great learning
project.

> but rather some PIC-based sort of sound-to-light project and ask a
> girl to help you testing it :-)

Yes, that would have some other advantages, though not relevant to the
PIClist.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2008\12\05@185728 by Jinx

face picon face
> > HD44780 based LCD character display and my own keypad.
>
> 5 volts required

Bob, you got me thinking. No mean feat

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb4822/is_200307/ai_n17567066

With so many uCs now not running TTL Vcc it makes sense that 3.3V
alphanumeric displays should be on the market

2008\12\05@185728 by Mongol Herdsman

picon face
solarwind wrote:
>> Don't waste time, go get some billable job at local McDonalds and buy
>> one and program it to do complex math. You may even create simple
>> mobile web application to do the math to impress schoolgirls. Decorate
>> the web calculator properly :-) By the way, the cheapest internet
>> enabled mobile is about US$100, if I am not mistaken.
>>
>> If you think you need to lean to PICs, better choose not math project,
>> but rather some PIC-based sort of sound-to-light project and ask a
>> girl to help you testing it :-)
>
> What? Are you so disgustingly cynical that you believe all I want to
> accomplish is to impress school girls? Wow, I thought you couldn't
> sink any lower.

First, I did not say that all you want is to impress your school girls.
And second, I don't see anything bad about you to impress your
schoolmates with your PIC-related skills.

2008\12\05@190121 by olin piclist

face picon face
solarwind wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 6:18 PM, Mongol Herdsman
>> If you think you need to lean to PICs, better choose not math
>> project, but rather some PIC-based sort of sound-to-light project
>> and ask a girl to help you testing it :-)
>
> What? Are you so disgustingly cynical that you believe all I want to
> accomplish is to impress school girls? Wow, I thought you couldn't
> sink any lower.

Hey, cool it.  You're out of line here.

First, note the ":-)" at the end of the message.  Tilt your head to the left
and it looks like a smily face, meaning the preceeding was meant (sort of at
least) as a joke.  Second, even if not totally a joke, don't get upset about
it.  It's just someone typying some words at you from the other end of the
internet.  Big deal.  They can't hurt you.  Get over it.

You need to grow some thicker skin.  You're getting way too upset at things
that aren't really hurting you.  The worst thing you can do is respond with
insults.  That just makes you look childish and makes getting any respect a
lot harder.

When you get to your first design review, you will have to be a *lot* less
sensitive.  Engineers usually don't have time or patience for sugar coating
things, and generally believe it gets in the way of clear communication
anyway.  When someone says some part of your design is silly or possibly
even "sucks", you better learn to ask why they think that, to not get upset,
and to stick to non-emotional evaluation.  Perhaps they're right and you've
just been given a chance to learn something and improve your design.  If
you're convinced you're right and you carefully and calmly explain why you
did what you did, you may hear "Oh, that makes sense" in return.  Never take
it personally, and absolutely never respond in a way to make it personal.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2008\12\05@190758 by Bob Blick

face
flavicon
face

On Sat, 06 Dec 2008 12:56:56 +1300, "Jinx" <RemoveMEjoecolquittspamspamBeGoneclear.net.nz>
said:
> > > HD44780 based LCD character display and my own keypad.
> >
> > 5 volts required
>
> Bob, you got me thinking. No mean feat
>
> findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb4822/is_200307/ai_n17567066
>
> With so many uCs now not running TTL Vcc it makes sense that 3.3V
> alphanumeric displays should be on the market

Hi Jinx,

I have used generic 44780 displays at 3.3 volts before but needed to use
a voltage multiplier to push Vled below ground. It looks like the
article you point to has something like that.

Anything that uses the 44780 interface is like putting on a pair of
jeans in terms of familiarity, I can see why a new product based on a 25
year-old spec updated for 3.3 volts is (evidently) marketable.

Cheerful regards,

Bob

--
http://www.fastmail.fm - mmm... Fastmail...

2008\12\05@191511 by Bob Blick

face
flavicon
face

On Fri, 05 Dec 2008 16:07:40 -0800, "Bob Blick" <spamBeGonebobblickKILLspamspam@spam@ftml.net>
said:

> I have used generic 44780 displays at 3.3 volts before but needed to use
> a voltage multiplier to push Vled below ground. It looks like the

I meant to write "Vlcd" not "Vled", oops.

--
http://www.fastmail.fm - Or how I learned to stop worrying and
                         love email again

2008\12\05@191524 by Mongol Herdsman

picon face
Olin Lathrop wrote:
> solarwind wrote:
>> On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 6:18 PM, Mongol Herdsman
>>> If you think you need to lean to PICs, better choose not math
>>> project, but rather some PIC-based sort of sound-to-light project
>>> and ask a girl to help you testing it :-)
>>
>> What? Are you so disgustingly cynical that you believe all I want to
>> accomplish is to impress school girls? Wow, I thought you couldn't
>> sink any lower.
>
> Hey, cool it.  You're out of line here.

Hey Olin, wanna eat Herbert's bread? It's getting a bit fantastishe.
They said there was the phase of the moon and the planet were too
close to it :-)

You are right of course. Regards.

2008\12\05@191805 by Mongol Herdsman

picon face
Bob Blick wrote:
> Hi Jinx,

"Hello" would be somewhat better, sorry if I am not right.

2008\12\05@192259 by Mongol Herdsman

picon face
Olin Lathrop wrote:
>> If you think you need to lean to PICs, better choose not math project,
>
> I disagree.  I think making a calculator with a PIC is a great learning
> project.

First project must be blinking LEDs, done in Assembler. This is an
axiom, I think. :-)

2008\12\05@194014 by Bob Blick

face
flavicon
face
On Sat, 6 Dec 2008 02:17:43 +0200, "Mongol Herdsman"
<inner.mongolia.herdspam_OUTspam@spam@gmail.com> said:
> Bob Blick wrote:
> > Hi Jinx,
>
> "Hello" would be somewhat better, sorry if I am not right.

I just love the way "Hi Jinx" sounds! If his name was Jack, though, I'd
be careful addressing him especially if on an airplane.

Cheerful regards,

Bob

--
http://www.fastmail.fm - Access your email from home and the web

2008\12\05@194113 by Jinx

face picon face
> Anything that uses the 44780 interface is like putting on a pair of
> jeans in terms of familiarity, I can see why a new product based on
> a 25 year-old spec updated for 3.3 volts is (evidently) marketable.

There's been no problem to do this for a long time. Wristwatches for
example. Ones I've taken apart and examined (in the hope of cannibalising
an existing product to use the display in another) internally generate the
various bias voltages from a low Vbatt. And yet they're efficient enough
to last well with even small batteries

Wristwatch displays aren't as flexible as an alphanumeric though, being
pre-formed for a specific purpose, and they're generally a zebra-strip
connection too

The advantage with a 16x2 is, as you point out, the convenience of interfacing
with a controller, rather than having to do the segment drive manually

That the majority (on the general retail market anyway) of interface logic
is still an unforgiving 4.5-5.5V is surprising. Segment drive voltages are
not difficult to generate, logic families exist to below 1V, you'd think the
two would come together

Hardly rocket surgery

2008\12\05@194452 by Joseph Bento

face
flavicon
face

On Dec 5, 2008, at 5:03 PM, Mongol Herdsman wrote:

> Olin Lathrop wrote:
>>> If you think you need to lean to PICs, better choose not math  
>>> project,
>>
>> I disagree.  I think making a calculator with a PIC is a great  
>> learning
>> project.
>
> First project must be blinking LEDs, done in Assembler. This is an
> axiom, I think. :-)

While I can blink an LED, I'm still looking for that all encompassing  
tutorial to really explain assembler.  David Meiklejohn of Gooligum  
Electronics has by far the best tutorials I've seen, and I really need  
to settle down with his lessons.

Then there's JAL which I am growing rather fond of...

I have no desire to code anything as complex as a reverse polish  
calculator, but would like to code my own Nixie and VFD clocks.

Joe

2008\12\05@194908 by Jinx

face picon face
> > Hi Jinx,
>
> "Hello" would be somewhat better, sorry if I am not right.

Way too hot for hijinx today. Or Hi Jean ;-) Whoever came up with
the idea of a bath or shower at the end of a long day, bless you

I _would_ like to be inside playing with the new USB pack and adjusting
fans to get them just right, instead I'm out (supposed to be) in the sun trying
to cut mdf sheets before they curl up like yesterday's sandwiches

2008\12\05@195617 by apptech

face
flavicon
face
> Don't waste time, go get some billable job at local McDonalds and buy
> one and program it to do complex math.

Fortunately, this young man has seen the light side and in these days of
mobile web applications he's CHOSEN to build from scratch an implementation
of the only true pocket number manipulation system. aka RPN. I haven't owned
or used an RPN "calculator" for far too long, alas, but they are by far the
best way to manipulate numeric data in a calculator like device.

It's good to see another real engineer aborning. If he can but manage to run
the Olin gauntlet sucessfully he will be a valuable addition to the list.
May even learn something about hazing in the process, alas.


   Russell


2008\12\05@195645 by Jinx

face picon face
> but would like to code my own Nixie and VFD clocks

You should check out Mike Harrison

http://www.amug.org/~jthomas/nixieclock.html

Haven't seen him on the list for a couple of years

Silicon Chip had a Nixie project a little while back

http://www.siliconchip.com.au/cms/A_109004/article.html

No PIC. 4060 clock, MC34063 200V generator, 4017 tube drives

Can supply details if needed

2008\12\05@202335 by apptech

face
flavicon
face
> Ok, I'll be as clear and concise as possible from now on.

What they were referring to was the material included from the prior posts.

A major contributor to the problem is that GMail, byu default,

- adds all prior material to the response
- hides it from the responder
- top posts.

These 3 things taken together cause eg Olin to have a hissy fit and, if you
do not understand what they are trying to say, their response can be rather
puzzling.

Prior comments (and perhaps a few that often get made as part of such an
encounter, and may or may not have been so far) can be summarised as.

- Try and do your own momework/basic research on the subject befoe you ask
questions here so that the questions you ask can be ones that are most
useful to you and don't wate other people's time. [You seem to have done
quite well in this respect].

- Try to trim off material from prior posts so that only directly relevant
matter is left. Too much trimming makes your response hard to understand.
Too little trimmimg leaves people wading through material that is
irrelevant - or causes people to \give up when they could have been
helpful - or vcauses some people to take up cudgels as a specttaor sport.

- Try to put answers and responses after questions and related material so
that the text read more naturally. This is a matter of som debate over
decades. There are those who argue for top and bottom posting. Both have
merit. Top posting works best when you WANT to include all prior material as
a one document history. In such cases I usually also copy material out of
the prior material to make a mini top-post response with all prior material
bottom posted. this approach is not well suited to lists usually but can be
very handy in some cases in a business environment.

- Other (much not worth too too much attention ... :-) ).

GMail's tendency to top post and hide quoted material is quite a trap - both
for those who use it and for those who receive it's results without being
aware of what is happening.



    Russell

2008\12\06@013834 by M. Adam Davis

face picon face
Olin,

This is not properly tagged.

If you insist on discussing email and list etiquitte on the list,
please use the OT tag.  If you are worried about it reaching the
intended recipient, you may CC them or, better yet IMO, take the
entire 'lesson' offlist.

-Adam

On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 6:18 PM, Olin Lathrop <spamBeGoneolin_piclist@spam@spamembedinc.com> wrote:
> OK, a honest question deserves a honest answer.  Look at your whole post
> above.



--
Please rate and vote for my contest entry:
mypic32.com/web/guest/profiles?profileID=50331

2008\12\06@014046 by M. Adam Davis

face picon face
On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 5:37 PM, Bob Blick <RemoveMEbobblickEraseMEspamKILLspamftml.net> wrote:
> On Fri, 5 Dec 2008 01:31:03 -0500, "solarwind" <spamBeGonex.solarwind.xspam_OUTspamRemoveMEgmail.com>
>> HD44780 based LCD character display and my own keypad.
> 5 volts required.

There are 3.3v HD44780 based displays available:

http://www.newhavendisplay.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=3_111&zenid=j16m2esoh0ndqjghplndakfe86

-Adam

--
Please rate and vote for my contest entry:
mypic32.com/web/guest/profiles?profileID=50331

2008\12\06@034450 by Mongol Herdsman

picon face
apptech wrote:
>> Don't waste time, go get some billable job at local McDonalds and buy
>> one and program it to do complex math.
>
> Fortunately, this young man has seen the light side and in these days of
> mobile web applications he's CHOSEN to build from scratch an implementation
> of the only true pocket number manipulation system. aka RPN.

Why "only" implementation of the only true pocket number manipulation
system, why not implementation of the CERN computer as the first
project?

Things must be done in incremental steps. Electronic Engineer's (not
technician's) destiny is to figure out the right realistic
learning/developing curve, not to jump on arbitrary "super cool"
project. Let him show he can "blink LEDs" first.


> It's good to see another real engineer aborning...

To be nominated as a "Real Engineer" he needs to accomplish at least
3% of what Olin did on real market. Blabbing about a super project is
a bit of a different value to developing real though simple
commercially sound projects.

Regards.

2008\12\06@085339 by apptech

face
flavicon
face
>> Fortunately, this young man has seen the light side and in these days of
>> mobile web applications he's CHOSEN to build from scratch an
>> implementation
>> of the only true pocket number manipulation system. aka RPN.

> Why "only" implementation of the only true pocket number manipulation
> system,

That was intended to be both pithy, apposite and at least a wee bit funny.
This may not have come across as well as intended :-).

RPN is of course the only language used but all but a few true engineers.
The remaining few use pure Pilish notation ("PN" ?) but it lacks the
flexibility of it's inverted twin.

To use RPN is to fall in love with it if your brain is of an engineering
bent.
It takes not too lomng to realise that it's not perfect. With the 4 high
stack of HP implememntations you had to start near the centre of an
expression and wade outwards, where as with 'true algebraic" [shudder]
systems once can if brave start at the start and bracket ones-self into
their midst. Getting the bracketing correct in any decent expression without
recourse to a BOTE prop is vanishingly hard. With RPN anything is possible
if you start near the middle.

An RPN box RPN is a number management system, not a calculator. The suitably
skilled can stop at ANY point in the middle of a calculation and perform
some other calculation or memory retrieval or storage or whatever and then
continue without problem.

Super simplistically.
E = enter .d=roll down.

1+2+3+4-->

                   1E2+3+4+

Now 1+2 / pause 5*6/ +3+4 =

                  1E2+5E6*d3+4+

and so on.

________________

> why not implementation of the CERN computer as the first
> project?

CERN is so last decade (unlike RPN which is so last last last decade)
If you've ever seen the "electronics" used in some of those detetctors you'd
shudder.

> Things must be done in incremental steps. Electronic Engineer's (not
> technician's) destiny is to figure out the right realistic
> learning/developing curve, not to jump on arbitrary "super cool"
> project. Let him show he can "blink LEDs" first.

Aye Cap'n.

>> It's good to see another real engineer aborning...

> To be nominated as a "Real Engineer" he needs to accomplish at least
> 3% of what Olin did on real market.

Note:  Aborning

> Blabbing about a super project is
> a bit of a different value to developing real though simple
> commercially sound projects.

Aye aye Cap'n.


 R



2008\12\06@130553 by Mongol Herdsman

picon face
apptech wrote:
>>> It's good to see another real engineer aborning...
>
>> To be nominated as a "Real Engineer" he needs to accomplish at least
>> 3% of what Olin did on real market.
>
> Note:  Aborning

Yes, aborning, but still engineer; some real experience required.
Super project blabbering without implementing even simplest
educational projects, is not what a real engineer is expected to do.

2008\12\06@163236 by Vitaliy

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apptech wrote:
> RPN is of course the only language used but all but a few true engineers.
> The remaining few use pure Pilish notation ("PN" ?) but it lacks the
> flexibility of it's inverted twin.
>
> To use RPN is to fall in love with it if your brain is of an engineering
> bent.

FWIW, I don't use RPN. Does it mean my brain doesn't have the engineering
bent?


>> Things must be done in incremental steps. Electronic Engineer's (not
>> technician's) destiny is to figure out the right realistic
>> learning/developing curve, not to jump on arbitrary "super cool"
>> project. Let him show he can "blink LEDs" first.

Also FWIW, I share Mr. Herdsman's sentiments. I think solarwind can use a
little more humility, and spend a little more time researching answers to
some of the simple questions ("brownout reset", etc). I mean, I remember
what it's like to be young and to think that nothing is impossible (our
company would not exist today if we weren't naive and foolhardy, and
believed the seasoned SCORE advisors who told us our business cannot
possibly work). But it helps a great deal to understand one's limitations,
in order not to bite off more than one can chew. Patience, determination,
and attention to detail are qualities that in my mind describe a good
engineer.

50 posts in just two days is way too many, I think anything above 10/day is
a manifestation of an addiction (been there, done that) with all that it
entails -- emotional exhaustion, hypersensitivity, irritability. Remember
Tamas?

Vitaliy


2008\12\06@165602 by olin piclist

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Vitaliy wrote:
> FWIW, I don't use RPN. Does it mean my brain doesn't have the
> engineering bent?

But have you actually tried it and given it a reasonable chance?  I got my
first calculator as a freshman in college, and it was a traditional
algebraic one.  It was a cheap calculator (about $125 back then).  HP
calculators were much more expensive.  So I got used to using it.  I heard
about reverse polish, but frankly the name made it sound stupid and the
descriptions didn't make it sound easy to use either.

Then I got my first job out of school at HP, and of course was issued a HP
calculator.  It took a few days to get used to, but once I was proficient at
both there was no comparison.  Reverse Polish, despite the stupid name, was
definitely better.

I don't think I've run into anyone that has actually given RPN a real try
that didn't prefer it.  The corrolary is that the people that say RPN is too
cumbersome or doesn't make sense haven't tried it.  There is a lot of green
eggs and ham mentality going on.  People are comfortable with what they know
and feel threatened by what they don't, so they dismiss it as inferior
without any real basis in fact.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2008\12\06@191742 by apptech

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>> Note:  Aborning

> Yes, aborning, but still engineer; some real experience required.
> Super project blabbering without implementing even simplest
> educational projects, is not what a real engineer is expected to do.

Mayhaps you are suggesting project blabbering without having read all his
posts. In one he describes what he has achieved on the project so far. Which
is a substantial part of the whole, including AFAIR all the core code for
the RPN and general numeric routines and much of the ancilliary hardware.
While you could question whether this is in fact true, such way lies madness
and duplicity. If you started querying whether any of the matereial he
posted was in fact true you may next start wondering whether someone using
only a psuedonym really exists as a 'natural person', and may run the risk
of vanishing in a puff of personal infinite regress :-). No?


  RM <-- represents a natural person (although a rather unnatural one)



2008\12\06@203636 by Daniel Serpell

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Hi,

I'm replying late, but anyway...

On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 9:19 AM, Olin Lathrop <.....olin_piclistspamRemoveMEembedinc.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Well, if you code it tightly, you could use about 8k. For example, the
venerable HP-11C used 6k words (of 10bits), and the HP-15C used
12k words. In fact, I think an HP-15C emulator in a larger PIC could
be a fun project, bonus points if it could be fitted in some of the newer
HP-12C calculators that are still around - see nonpareil emulator, and it's
port to the iphone: http://code.google.com/p/hpcalc-iphone/ .

>> I assume there are floating
>> point routines for the 16F available for download somewhere.
>
> I don't, at least not the type required for implementing a calculator.
> Calculators usually do their math in wide decimal, something like 14 digits.
> Even if doing it in binary, you want at least 48 bits to meet "scientific
> calculator" level specs.  Maybe someone has developed floating point
> routines with 48 bit mantissas, but most likely not.

A few years ago, I wrote a floating point package for PIC16 that used
48bits floating point numbers, 38bits mantissa and 10bit exponent.

Back then I was trying doing a basic calculator on an 16F84, and hit
the code word limit: the fp-add, mult, div, load and fp to BCD routines
where about 950 words.

>
> Real microcontroller applications rarely need more than 16 bits mantissa.  I
> have floating point routines that run on a PIC 16, but they use 24 bits, 16
> for the mantissa, 7 for the exponent, and 1 sign bit.  That's all that was
> needed in the 100 or so PIC applications I've done so far.

Yes, the few times I used floating point math in a real project was because
the need of some  sort of human readable output. I always prefer using fixed
point math, it's easier and faster on a PIC.

   Daniel.

2008\12\06@215120 by Isaac Marino Bavaresco

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Bob Blick escreveu:
> On Fri, 5 Dec 2008 01:31:03 -0500, "solarwind" <x.solarwind.xspam@spam@gmail.com>
> said:
>
>  
>> HD44780 based LCD character display and my own keypad.
>>    
>
> 5 volts required.
>  

I made a product with PIC16F648A and a HD44780 based LCD powered by
three AA alkaline batteries, no power switch or voltage regulators.

Everything works down to 3V, but below approx. 3.3V the contrast starts
to degrade. Perhaps by adjusting the contrast potentiometer when the
voltage is low may cure this, but I didn't put an access hole to it.

Current consumption of about 1mA when operating. Battery life estimated
to be more than 2800h (2800mAh as per battery manufacturer).

Best regrds,

Isaac
__________________________________________________
Faça ligações para outros computadores com o novo Yahoo! Messenger
http://br.beta.messenger.yahoo.com/

2008\12\06@220221 by solarwind

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On Sat, Dec 6, 2008 at 9:51 PM, Isaac Marino Bavaresco
<EraseMEisaacbavarescoRemoveMEspamSTOPspamyahoo.com.br> wrote:
> I made a product with PIC16F648A and a HD44780 based LCD powered by
> three AA alkaline batteries, no power switch or voltage regulators.
>
> Everything works down to 3V, but below approx. 3.3V the contrast starts
> to degrade. Perhaps by adjusting the contrast potentiometer when the
> voltage is low may cure this, but I didn't put an access hole to it.
>
> Current consumption of about 1mA when operating. Battery life estimated
> to be more than 2800h (2800mAh as per battery manufacturer).
>
> Best regrds,
>
> Isaac

Are you saying that both the PIC and the LCD WITH the BACKLIGHT consume 1 mA?

--
..::[ solarwind ]::..

2008\12\06@223336 by Tamas Rudnai

face picon face
> Are you saying that both the PIC and the LCD WITH the BACKLIGHT consume 1
mA?

I think he only said you should measure your component with the backlight
and make your maths. I think he also said that without a high power device
the PIC itself could consume a very limited amount of power so that you
could easily measure your other parts and make the estimation.

Tamas



On Sun, Dec 7, 2008 at 3:02 AM, solarwind <RemoveMEx.solarwind.xKILLspamspamTakeThisOuTgmail.com> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> -

2008\12\06@223629 by Isaac Marino Bavaresco

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solarwind escreveu:
{Quote hidden}

No back-light in this one.

But yes, the PIC and the LCD consumed around 1mA. Switched the clock
between 4MHz and 48KHz internal oscillators, and most times being in
sleep mode.

__________________________________________________
Faça ligações para outros computadores com o novo Yahoo! Messenger
http://br.beta.messenger.yahoo.com/

2008\12\06@223750 by Forrest W Christian

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solarwind wrote:
> Are you saying that both the PIC and the LCD WITH the BACKLIGHT
> consume 1 mA?
Backlight?  I didn't see him mention a backlight...

I'm not sure I've ever used a backlight in a production device where
current draw was important.

-forrest

2008\12\07@222352 by Danny Miller

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Not necessarily.  dsPIC30F2020 is a hog with a stated 1.2mA-2.4mA power
down current even at 3.3v.

If you ran off of A76 watch batteries (150mA), the chip would run them
down in under a week even when left off.

Similarly, the display current or, if you have a regulator, the
regulator quiescent current- or even capacitor leakage- can greatly
reduce the battery life in Sleep mode.
Some of the big processors can require significant current in Run mode.  
These small watch batteries are actually limited to a few mA.  For
temporary bursts (going to high speed periodically) a cap *might* be
able to supply the extra current but not for long.  The 30F is the big
hog there, ~100mA @ 20MIPs @3.3v.  33F is less than half that at 20MIPs.

Danny

Bob Blick wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2008\12\07@224927 by solarwind

picon face
That's why I'm going with the PIC32 or PIC18

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