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'[PIC] WHAT CHIP'
2005\11\07@230742 by R. I. Nelson

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I have not done any pic programming since the days of the 16C56.  But I
was thinking about trying it again.
Questions:
I want a chip that I can maybe reprogram if I make a mistake.
I would like as many I/O pins as possible.
I would like to have 2 or more chips talk to each other.
I would like to have a programmer that is as inexpensive as possible.
Like to use the old DIP .100" centers package if possible.  (I have
several hundred of those on hand and prototyping boards.)

What is the easiest language to learn to program them?



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note;quoted-printable:Custom design and building of small electro mechanical devices.=0D=0A=
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2005\11\07@233647 by Maarten Hofman

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> I want a chip that I can maybe reprogram if I make a mistake.

All F parts allow you to do this without any problems.

> I would like as many I/O pins as possible.

Then make sure that your PICmicro allows you to use reset as an I/O
pin, and has an internal oscillator. This will free three more pins
for I/O. Other than that, it will depend on the size of the package
you want: obviously a chip with more legs will have more I/O pins.

> I would like to have 2 or more chips talk to each other.

It would depend on what speed, but for two chips I have had great
result using the USART (takes two wires). For more than two chips it
would depend on your configuration: if you have one master and a
number of slaves, you could use I2C (also uses two wires). You could
use I2C for multiple masters as well, but in that case CAN is
generally a better option.

> I would like to have a programmer that is as inexpensive as possible.

F parts take very little power to program (unlike the C parts, which
sometimes need a lot of power) so most programmers will work.

> Like to use the old DIP .100" centers package if possible.  (I have
> several hundred of those on hand and prototyping boards.)

Almost all PICmicros are available in this format.

> What is the easiest language to learn to program them?

BASIC, most likely. Most forms of BASIC stay close enough to assembly
not to get you into deep trouble, yet it is a very easy language to
learn and use. Depending on the implementation (interpreted or
compiled) it might even be almost as fast as assembly. However, with
<=35 instructions PICmicro assembly (for the <=16F series) is not too
difficult to learn either, and will give you a better feeling of
control.

Greetings,
Maarten Hofman.

2005\11\08@013833 by Jose Da Silva

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On November 7, 2005 06:46 pm, R. I. Nelson wrote:
> I have not done any pic programming since the days of the 16C56.  But
> I was thinking about trying it again.
> Questions:
> I want a chip that I can maybe reprogram if I make a mistake.
> I would like as many I/O pins as possible.
> I would like to have 2 or more chips talk to each other.
> I would like to have a programmer that is as inexpensive as possible.
> Like to use the old DIP .100" centers package if possible.  (I have
> several hundred of those on hand and prototyping boards.)
>
> What is the easiest language to learn to program them?

If you recall the 16c56, you could move up to the 16f59 <grin>

Actually, if you were doing hi-volume, you would probably want to work
with the 12bit or 14bit cores, but when you describe prototyping and
ask for easiest languages, then you are probably better-off looking at
the 18F series as they include a lot of things to play with.
If you recall your 16c56 (12bit core) assembler stuff, you might find
the 12f5xx and 10f2xx somewhat interesting as well, but you would have
to skip the hi-level languages on those.

Cheers!

2005\11\08@031007 by William Chops Westfield

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On Nov 7, 2005, at 10:41 PM, Jose Da Silva wrote:

> you might find the 12f5xx and 10f2xx somewhat interesting as well,
> but you would have to skip the hi-level languages on those.

I don't see why.  I fit the 5-channel random PWMed LED "flames"
simulator (written in C) in a 12f chip with quite a lot of room to
spare.
It's not really so much that C is terribly efficient, as it is that many
useful programs are quite short...

As for "as many IO pins as possibles" - are you talking about being
willing to go to 28 and 40 pin parts, or do you want to start with
18pin parts?  You get more IO's on 18 pin parts than you used to;
with internal oscillators and such they'll typically have 16 IOs, but
of course that's less than you'd get on a 28 or 40 pin part...

BillW

2005\11\08@041812 by Jose Da Silva
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face
On November 8, 2005 12:09 am, William Chops Westfield wrote:
> As for "as many IO pins as possibles" - are you talking about being
> willing to go to 28 and 40 pin parts, or do you want to start with
> 18pin parts?  You get more IO's on 18 pin parts than you used to;
> with internal oscillators and such they'll typically have 16 IOs, but
> of course that's less than you'd get on a 28 or 40 pin part...

The OP was familiar with 16c56 and asked for lots of I/O, which is why I
referred the 16f59   Maybe you didn't get this humour, so I'll expand
it<grin-smile-wink-wink-nudge-nudge-har-har-smirk-grin>  ;-)

Now for 18, I didn't mean 18pin parts, but meant 18f series which would
make a good selection for someone interested in compiling code using a
hi-level language, plus playing with lots of on-board stuff:
http://www.microchip.com/ParamChartSearch/chart.aspx?branchID=1004&mid=10&lang=en&pageId=74

2005\11\08@074603 by John J. McDonough

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Maarten Hofman" <.....cashimorKILLspamspam@spam@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [PIC] WHAT CHIP


> Then make sure that your PICmicro allows you to use reset as an I/O

Keep in mind that in some prototyping situations this is a bit of a hassle.
But on most of the newer PICs it is a pin that is really "wasted", so having
an extra I/O can be a good thing.  Also note that if the part is capable of
using reset as an I/O, it doesn't mean you HAVE to use it as an I/O.

> pin, and has an internal oscillator.

Again, if you need crystal accuracy for your app this isn't an option, but
just because the chip has an internal oscillator, that doesn;t imply that
you have to use it.  Some of the newer "nanoWatt" parts have a programmable
oscillator that gives you lots of options for power management, too.

>> I would like to have a programmer that is as inexpensive as possible.
>
> F parts take very little power to program (unlike the C parts, which
> sometimes need a lot of power) so most programmers will work.

Think about that. Most parts can be programmed by most programmers, but in
general, this is an issue for the software.  Some public domain software can
support a wide range of chips, and some (like WinPic) also support a wide
range of programmers.  Programmers are pretty trivial to build these days,
but you might not want to do that.  If you do choose a low cost programmer
be sure to choose one that requires an external power supply.

However, I would think hard about the ICD2.  It is expensive as programmers
go, and it is even more expensive in that to use it effectively you need to
give up two I/O pins.  But having in-circuit debugging (along with a FLASH
part) is a huge convenience, especially compared to your old experience.

>> What is the easiest language to learn to program them?
>
> BASIC, most likely. Most forms of BASIC stay close enough to assembly

If you HAVE to use an HLL, I tend to agree with Maarten that BASIC is a
pretty good choice.

Personally, I feel that high level languages get in the way until you are
very familiar with the PIC.  Since you have past experience in the 12C, I
would expect that the 16F's would be familiar and something you could
quickly get back up to speed with. MPLAB is still free, and it has improved
dramatically over the years.

In fact, I would suggest that you download MPLAB, select a 16F part that
seems close to what you need, and do a little programming, and simulating,
within MPLAB.  Sure, simulating the I/O is a pain, so I would play with
things with limited I/O.  But I bet after a day or two you will feel a lot
better about what part you want to use, and what stuff you need.  And you
will not have spent a penny.

The 12 and 14 bit cores are almost identical.  After you have played with
something familiar, you might want to play with an 18F.  The 18F is still
kinda sorta like the 12C and 16F, but it solves some of the messy bits.
Then you might want to try simulating the 30F.  This part is quite a bit
different, and in many ways, a lot cooler.  With the 30F, the C compilers
compile a language that is beginning to look like C.  Unfortnately, the 30F,
and especially the C30 compiler, are expensive.  But besides giant memory
and high performance, the 30F parts have some pretty impressive I/O.

Indeed, after you get your feet wet with MPLAB again, I would grab the
datasheets for some of the parts with interesting I/O devices.  There is a
"Mid Range Manual" for the 16F that covers most of the I/O, and a similar
manual for the other cores.  But these documents are huge, so sometimes it
is easier to just grab a datasheet.  But there are some really neat I/O
interfaces these days compared to what you had on the 12C, so it would be
worthwhile to see what makes sense for you before jumping in.

For some reason, people want to stick with the part they learned on.  But
within a series, the parts are all the same except for memory and I/O
complement, so it makes more sense to simply get the right part for the job.
No real reason to use a 40 pin part when 8 pins would do.

--McD


2005\11\08@080101 by olin piclist

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R. I. Nelson wrote:
> I have not done any pic programming since the days of the 16C56.
> But I was thinking about trying it again.
> Questions:
> I want a chip that I can maybe reprogram if I make a mistake.
> I would like as many I/O pins as possible.
> I would like to have 2 or more chips talk to each other.
> I would like to have a programmer that is as inexpensive as possible.
> Like to use the old DIP .100" centers package if possible.  (I have
> several hundred of those on hand and prototyping boards.)

Standardizing on any single chip doesn't make a lot of sense since sometimes
you need a lot of I/O, but many other times you don't want a behemoth
package.  I therefore suggest a range of hobby PICs by package size.

I think the easiest all around hobby package is the 28 pin DIP.  They aren't
as unwieldy as 40 pin DIPS, and unless you really really need the space the
extra few bucks for one or two in a project is noise compared to everything
else.  If you don't have existing code to re-use, I would start with the
dsPICs.  They are more capable and easier to program than the other PICs,
although it takes a little longer to get the whole instruction set in your
mind.  There are two good hobby choices in 28 pin DIP, the 30F3013 and
30F4012.  The first has 12 bit A/Ds, and the second has 10 bit A/Ds but
twice the program memory.  Both are very capable general purpose 16 bit
microcontrollers.  If you might be doing some DSP work and messing with
analog signals, I'd start with the 30F3013, otherwise start with the
30F4012.

As for a programmer, my offerings are at http://www.embedinc.com/products.


******************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, (978) 742-9014.  #1 PIC
consultant in 2004 program year.  http://www.embedinc.com/products

2005\11\08@114917 by Wouter van Ooijen

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> I want a chip that I can maybe reprogram if I make a mistake.

any flash part will do

> I would like as many I/O pins as possible.

that conflicts with DIP package

> I would like to have 2 or more chips talk to each other.

any pair of chips will do, if you are clever enough

> I would like to have a programmer that is as inexpensive as
> possible.

if you realy mean that check ic-prog or a similar program for the
cheapest hardware supported. but be aware that it will cost you in the
time you will spend.

> > Like to use the old DIP .100" centers package if possible.  (I have
> > several hundred of those on hand and prototyping boards.)

So the max pincount will be 40. Suggestions: 16F877A (fallback: 16F877),
18F4520 (fallback: 452), ask Olin for his preferred 40-pin 30F chip.

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2005\11\08@114917 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> Then make sure that your PICmicro allows you to use reset as an I/O

beware: on most (all?) chips that have this ability the /MCLR can only
be used as *input*.

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2005\11\08@115812 by Bob Axtell

face picon face
Wouter van Ooijen wrote:

>>Then make sure that your PICmicro allows you to use reset as an I/O
>>    
>>
>
>beware: on most (all?) chips that have this ability the /MCLR can only
>be used as *input*.
>
>Wouter van Ooijen
>
>-- -------------------------------------------
>Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
>consultancy, development, PICmicro products
>docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu
>
>
>  
>
Correct. Otherwise the MCLR pin cannot be taken to +13V.

--Bob

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