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PICList Thread
'[PIC] WARP-13 pirate! Help needed'
2005\04\14@103401 by Jim Robertson

flavicon
face

Sorry if you don't think the PICLIST is the right place for this. I think
it is as it has a ripple effect right though the PIC world.

...

Regretfully, one of my former resellers has taken it upon himself to copy
the WARP-13 and sell it with my software and firmware totally and
completely without my permission.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=73154&item=7507543289&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW#ShippingPayment

ebay item 7507543289

Sadly, all WARP-13 software and firmware has now been removed from
my web site and it will not be made available until this matter is resolved.

Frankly, I do not know exactly what legal protections I have. Can anyone
provide concrete information that may assist myself in knowing and enforcing
my rights to protect my IP.

Anyone who sincerely believes that they can provide any information that
they have good reason to believe is accurate and worthwhile for me to follow
is invited to offer comments (publicly or privately as they feel
appropriate) on
the following points.

I think that he cannot use the name WARP13a given that it has been
associated with NEWFOUND ELECTRONICS since 1999. Right?

He certainly cannot use my text taken from my web site. I did give him
permission previously due to the fact that he was a genuine reseller but
surely this implicitly meant only while he was a reseller.

He may well be able to use my circuit providing he does not copy
my artwork.

He cannot download my firmware and put it into his counterfeit WARP13's

He cannot represent this product as his own as he is using my firmware and
software.

He cannot represent that this is a product of NEWFOUND ELECTRONICS
or claim any existing relationship with NEWFOUND ELECTRONICS.

I am about to contact ebay and submit a NOCI form. I am looking to further
follow up this matter and if you can help please do so.


To WARP-13 owners:

I hope to be able to repost all the latest WARP13 updates again shortly.
Sorry for any inconvenience this may cause. If you need an update
urgently please contact me directly.

Regards,

Jim Robertson
NEWFOUND ELECTRONICS




2005\04\14@113619 by Mike Hord

picon face
> Sorry if you don't think the PICLIST is the right place for this. I think
> it is as it has a ripple effect right though the PIC world.

<remainder snipped>

Short of contacting ebay I'm not certain you can do anything.  I kind
of wondered if this might not become a problem after you stopped
selling them- too good a product not to be widely available!

I think the bottom line here, Jim, is that you really can't do much to
stop this person.  Even if you go so far as to obtain legal representation,
sue, and get a cease and desist order, or whatever else, they can
just close up shop, "move next door", and start up over again.

IANAL, of course, but I think your best course of action is to do
what you can to prevent future updates from being easily programmed,
change things a bit, and return to selling them yourself.  Have you
considered changing away from the 18f252 to a PIC which WILL
bootload?  It'd be a PITA for a few minutes for some of us, but we can
deal with it.

Good luck, Jim, and thanks for all you've done for us.  Your WARP-13a
is the sole reason I use PICs today.

Mike H.

2005\04\14@113730 by Kenneth Lumia

picon face
I suggest you ignore comments from the list (sorry) and
look for an attorney.  Have him look at the documents
that both parties have signed.  You may have a case,
however the amount recovered verses the grief and time must
be considered.

What may be more desirable is to have him write them a nasty
letter threatening action if they don't stop.  It is amazing how a letter
with an attorney's letterhead gets someones attention. Hopefully
this should put an end to the problem.

Again, there are a lot of variables here - get real legal advice.

ken
spam_OUTklumiaTakeThisOuTspamadelphia.net

{Original Message removed}

2005\04\14@114209 by Josh Koffman

face picon face
Wow. Well, I don't think I can help. But, in regards to your point
about different artwork, his board looks different than mine (Warp-13a
v1.0) in both the silkscreen and the traces under the 28 pin socket
space. His website claims "AZ-Electronics is new distributor for
NEWFOUND ELECTRONICS". Is this an old statement or something just
recently added on?

Josh
--
A common mistake that people make when trying to design something
completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
fools.
       -Douglas Adams

On 4/14/05, Jim Robertson <.....jimplKILLspamspam@spam@newfoundelectronics.com> wrote:
> Regretfully, one of my former resellers has taken it upon himself to copy
> the WARP-13 and sell it with my software and firmware totally and
> completely without my permission.
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=73154&item=7507543289&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW#ShippingPayment

2005\04\14@115115 by Bob Blick

face picon face

> Regretfully, one of my former resellers has taken it upon himself to copy
> the WARP-13 and sell it with my software and firmware totally and
> completely without my permission.

Hi Jim,

Sorry to hear about it. Perhaps the DMCA (Digital Millenium Copyright Act)
can be of some use here? You could send a takedown notice to anyone
hosting your copyrighted content.

Best regards,

Bob


2005\04\14@115142 by ThePicMan

flavicon
face

1) write to eBay.

2) if you throwed away the project, why bother if others continue it? think about the users' good.


At 00.33 2005.04.15 +1000, you wrote:

{Quote hidden}

>-

2005\04\14@115705 by Robert Rolf

picon face
Jim Robertson wrote:
> Regretfully, one of my former resellers has taken it upon himself to copy
> the WARP-13 and sell it with my software and firmware totally and
> completely without my permission.
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=73154&item=7507543289&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW#ShippingPayment
>
>
> ebay item 7507543289
>
> Sadly, all WARP-13 software and firmware has now been removed from
> my web site and it will not be made available until this matter is
> resolved.

That won't stop him from selling the knock offs. He'll just have
to supply a CD with your software on it.

> Frankly, I do not know exactly what legal protections I have.

You may have legal protection. Unfortunately the cost of enforcing
your rights will likely be many times what you loose to this pirate.
Such is life. It's not a 'justice' system. Its a 'legal' system
and crooks usually know the system better than law abiding citizens.

> Can anyone
> provide concrete information that may assist myself in knowing and
> enforcing
> my rights to protect my IP.

IP law is 'civil'. This means YOU bear ALL costs of bringing an
action forward, and may only recover those costs if you win.
And even if you win, the courts may NOT award you full costs.

You may have a 'lawyer referral service' in your area. This allows
you to get a 1/2 hour of legal time for a nominal fee so that you
have some idea how to proceed. Check with the local law society
if you don't see it listed in your phone books.

> Anyone who sincerely believes that they can provide any information that
> they have good reason to believe is accurate and worthwhile for me to
> follow
> is invited to offer comments (publicly or privately as they feel
> appropriate) on
> the following points.
>
> I think that he cannot use the name WARP13a given that it has been
> associated with NEWFOUND ELECTRONICS since 1999. Right?

Is Newfound Electronics a registered company?
Did you register Warp13 as a trademark?
If neither, you're probably screwed in spite of 'common usage'.

> He certainly cannot use my text taken from my web site.

Did your site have an explicit 'Copyright 19xx, Jim Robertson'
on EVERY page? Does your software have this copyright in a
human readable form?
If your company is not incorporated the 'owner' of the copyright is YOU,
as proprietor and only YOU, PERSONALLY can take any actions.

> I did give him
> permission previously due to the fact that he was a genuine reseller but
> surely this implicitly meant only while he was a reseller.
>
> He may well be able to use my circuit providing he does not copy
> my artwork.

True. Unless you patented the 'embodiment', which is unlikely.

> He cannot download my firmware and put it into his counterfeit WARP13's

But he can and did. Now how you can stop him is another matter.

> He cannot represent this product as his own as he is using my firmware and
> software.

But he can and does. Again, how are you going to stop him?

> He cannot represent that this is a product of NEWFOUND ELECTRONICS
> or claim any existing relationship with NEWFOUND ELECTRONICS.

True. But you can only take action if N.E. exists as a legal entity,
ie. incorporated. And if you can PROVE that he caused you damages.
If he only sells a few dozen units is the few hundred dollars you can
claim worth the legal cost of recovery? Remember, you can only claim
ACTUAL provable losses. Punitive damages are rare at this level.

> I am about to contact ebay and submit a NOCI form. I am looking to further
> follow up this matter and if you can help please do so.

Good luck.

Robert
IANAL but I've been around the block on this.

2005\04\14@124911 by olin_piclist

face picon face
Jim Robertson wrote:
> Regretfully, one of my former resellers has taken it upon himself to
> copy the WARP-13 and sell it with my software and firmware totally and
> completely without my permission.

I'm not that familiar with Ebay, but it looked to me he was selling a single
unit.  How do you know this is a copy and not one of your units he found in
the back of a closet somewhere?


*****************************************************************
Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts
(978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com

2005\04\14@125400 by Aza D. Oberman

flavicon
face
<Jim Robertson asks>
> I think that he cannot use the name WARP13a given that it has been
> associated with NEWFOUND ELECTRONICS since 1999. Right?

Get your ducks in a row Jim.  Time is important.

Gather any proof you have that you have advertised WARP13 as "Newfound
Electronics" at least once in every year since 1999 (you don't need proof
every year, but it closes the door on constructive abandonment of a common
law trademark).

If you have proof of sales (VISA charge slips or invoices *and* a
corresponding deposit) get your earliest one and add to it one example from
each other State (I'm thinking in terms of US law here) you've sold in over
the years.

Assemble any proof you have of what the other guy is doing.  I said "proof."
That means a copy of their advertisement or any representation that can
unequivocally be traced back to the other guy.  Buy one from the guy if you
have to, in order to get a receipt and a written statement that this is the
authentic WARP13 on their letterhead.  Be very critical of your evidence.
Can it be traced back to the other guy or could it be a fraud/forgery?  Does
it show that the other guy *intended* to usurp your trademark, or could it
be a screw-up?  Look at your evidence in the light most favorable to the
other guy -- this is very important.

Assemble this information neatly and make two clean, clear copies of it.
This is your evidence kit. Plan on leaving the *copies* with a lawyer.

Go to Martindale Hubble in your library or at
http://www.martindale.com/xp/Martindale/home.xml and checkout "intellectual
property" lawyers.  Find one you like and if you have the time call your
State Bar Association to see if there any blemishes on your selection's
record.  Many State Bar Associations have IP sub chapters, consider calling
a luminary there and asking for a referral -- they know who's good and who
ain't.

Now, run, don't walk, to that lawyer's office with your evidence kit.
Typically the first consultation is free.  Be prepared to tell the lawyer
*exactly* what you want him to accomplish (like: "Get an agreement from the
other guy, or a court order, that stops him from mentioning 'NEWFOUND
ELECTRONICS' or 'WARP13'").

The lawyers, if they are any good, will have to run a conflict check on you
before offering to take your case.  In every state of the Union an ethical
lawyer *cannot* accept a client who's best interest might conflict with
another client (there are exceptions, naturally, but they are exceedingly
rare).  It usually takes a few days for a heavy hitting lawyer in a large
firm to get back to you and accept, reject or refer your case.  Lawyers
without much work (experience?) get back immediately.

Odds are the first thing the lawyer will do is write what we call "the nasty
letter."  This letter threatens litigation most foul and puts the other guy
on notice that you've got him in the cross hairs and he doesn't stand a
chance.  Sometimes it will offer a settlement to be accepted in X days or
forever taken off the table.

Even if that's all you can afford by all means get that letter sent.  The
more prestigious the law firm the better.  The big firms have a way of
intimidating because if you had the money they could steamroll just about
anyone (like IBM and Microsoft steamrolled the Justice Department) -- and
remember, the other guy has no clue about what you or your rich uncle can
afford.

Most of the time people know they were doing something wrong, or if they
didn't know they're appalled, and the letter puts an end to the matter.  You
may not get a formal judgment or agreement, but as likely as not the other
guy doesn't have the stomach to fight a competent experienced attorney with
a specialized practice (that's why you want an IP lawyer who knows how to
scare the pants off a general practitioner who might be smart but isn't all
that comfortable in the Byzantine depths of IP law).

All this is offered by way of friendly commentary and *may contain errors;*
under no circumstances should it be construed as legal advice.  For legal
advice consult an attorney licensed to practice in your jurisdiction.

Aza D. Oberman

2005\04\14@132810 by Shawn Tan Ser Ngiap

flavicon
face
On Thursday 14 April 2005 03:33 pm, Jim Robertson wrote:
> Sorry if you don't think the PICLIST is the right place for this. I think
> it is as it has a ripple effect right though the PIC world.

Do you think that this pirate is a piclist member?? Maybe all replies should
be sent off-list?? just in case..

cheers..

--
with metta,
Shawn Tan

2005\04\14@134929 by James Newton, Host

face picon face
I have sent the following message to the seller via the eBay web site:

  This is an unauthorized "pirate" copy of the warp13
  programmer as per Jim Robertson. If you do not remove
  this listing immediately, I and other members of the
  PIC community will complain to eBay and fund
  Mr. Robertson's legal claim against you.

Hopefully, if a few other PICListers are willing to take the time to send a
similar message, he will buy a clue and buckle. If not, I will email eBay to
complain about the listing.

I've also send the following note to the one bidder on this item:

  You should be aware that the item you are bidding on
  is an UNAUTHORIZED "pirate" copy of the warp13 programmer
  (as per Jim Robertson who designed and sold this device
  for years) Please see:
  http://www.newfoundelectronics.com/

I also personally pledge $50 to Jim to help support any legal bills. It is
the absolute least I can do after the years of helping PICListers that Jim
has taken the time to do. Not to mention providing a good product and
discovering and publishing any number of programmability problems with the
PIC chips.

Anyone who has or hopes to sell a PIC related product, competitive or
otherwise, should seriously consider what happens when this sort of crap is
allowed to take place. Jim may or may not have a legal course, but on top of
that, the community may have some effect as well.

At best, emails from 2000 odd PICListers will be hard to ignore.

---
James Newton: PICList webmaster/Admin
jamesnewtonspamKILLspampiclist.com  1-619-652-0593 phone
http://www.piclist.com/member/JMN-EFP-786
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com





> {Original Message removed}

2005\04\14@142111 by Bob J

picon face
I think one simple thing to do would be to publicize that there are
fakes out there for sale, who's selling them, etc.  At the very least
the folks who feel strongly about IP would not purchase one.

Regards,
Bob

happy with my Warp-13A

>    This is an unauthorized "pirate" copy of the warp13
>    programmer as per Jim Robertson. If you do not remove

2005\04\14@142346 by Mike Hord

picon face
> At best, emails from 2000 odd PICListers will be hard to ignore.

Hear, hear, James!

I'd encourage everyone to send an e-mail via ebay (or through his
website) to the dirty seller.

Here's the website address:
http://www.az-electronics.com/comersus/store/comersus_contactUs.asp

May need to be unwrapped per your mail settings.

Just send him an e-mail saying that you appreciate Jim's
contribution to the community and that you think he should
be rewarded for it.  DON'T be rude, crude or even more than
moderately unpleasant.  Just let him know that what he's
doing isn't cool.

Mike H.

2005\04\14@144617 by Rich Mulvey

flavicon
face
ThePicMan wrote:

>1) write to eBay.
>
>2) if you throwed away the project, why bother if others continue it? think about the users' good.
>
>  
>

Jim has been posting updated software and hardware mods on his web page
continuously - even up to about a week ago, last I checked.  And without
asking any money from users.

I wish I got that kind of service from companies I pay thousands of
dollars a year to!

- Rich


2005\04\14@145521 by Jose Da Silva

flavicon
face
On April 14, 2005 07:33 am, Jim Robertson wrote:
> Sorry if you don't think the PICLIST is the right place for this. I
> think it is as it has a ripple effect right though the PIC world.

It's probably one of the 1st places I'd think of.
You may also want to post in newsgroups.

> Frankly, I do not know exactly what legal protections I have. Can
> anyone provide concrete information that may assist myself in knowing
> and enforcing my rights to protect my IP.

Follow the money.
This is obviously done for money.
1st thing you want to do is contact Paypal + eBay with proof to shut
this person down.
If this person sets up shop under another sort of paypal competitor or
credit card, repeat process to shut it down.

2005\04\14@145521 by Jose Da Silva

flavicon
face
On April 14, 2005 10:49 am, James Newton, Host wrote:
<snip>
> I've also send the following note to the one bidder on this item:
>
>    You should be aware that the item you are bidding on
>    is an UNAUTHORIZED "pirate" copy of the warp13 programmer
>    (as per Jim Robertson who designed and sold this device
>    for years) Please see:
>    http://www.newfoundelectronics.com/
>
> Anyone who has or hopes to sell a PIC related product, competitive or
> otherwise, should seriously consider what happens when this sort of
> crap is allowed to take place. Jim may or may not have a legal
> course, but on top of that, the community may have some effect as
> well.
<snip>

If nobody else has said it yet, thanks for your efforts.
Your voice carries some weight in matters like these when dealing with
paypals or ebays or other equivalents.

2005\04\14@150037 by Les Otter

flavicon
picon face
Jim

Have you challenged him about it?  What was his response?  How do you know
for sure he's selling non-Newfound Warps?  Has he, or could he have stock of
genuine ones, either from you or from another reseller?

I'm intrigued to know

Les



2005\04\14@150854 by Jan-Erik Soderholm

face picon face
Hi.
I used the built-in tool in eBay to ask about shipping of the
item to Sweden. I got the reply below back.
Regards,
Jan-Erik.

{Quote hidden}

2005\04\14@153203 by Bob Axtell

face picon face
Les Otter wrote:

>Jim
>
>Have you challenged him about it?  What was his response?  How do you know
>for sure he's selling non-Newfound Warps?  Has he, or could he have stock of
>genuine ones, either from you or from another reseller?
>
>I'm intrigued to know
>
>Les
>
>
>
>  
>
Yes. Actually, you need to tread carefully. Someone could have opened a
company legally anywhere
in the USA using the name NEWFOUND ELECTRONICS, and this dealer could be
just as much
a victim here as Jim is. Legal trade names can be registered in any
county in the US and the names
can be used anywhere in the world, yet still be 100% legal.

I was under the impression that NEWFOUND ELECTRONICS itself was no
longer in business, as
I thought I saw a notice last year to that effect. This might have
encouraged people to try to "steal"
the name. I think this is appalling- and is in very poor taste-.. but
might not be illegal, at least in the
USA.

--Bob


--
Note: To protect our network,
attachments must be sent to
.....attachKILLspamspam.....engineer.cotse.net .
1-866-263-5745 USA/Canada
http://beam.to/azengineer

2005\04\14@153630 by Aza D. Oberman

flavicon
face
>    You should be aware that the item you are bidding on
>    is an UNAUTHORIZED "pirate" copy of the warp13 programmer
>    (as per Jim Robertson who designed and sold this device
>    for years) Please see:
>    http://www.newfoundelectronics.com/


James,

I'd be careful here.  Truth is, of course, an absolute defense to slander,
but if there's more to the story there can be trouble.

Just one arrogant lawyer's opinion ;-)

Cheers,

Win Wiencke
Image Logic Corporation

2005\04\14@155059 by Jim Robertson

flavicon
face


Wow, I must say that I am really surprised with such positive
feedback on the piclist and a few private messages as well.

I am happy to inform you all that the matter may well be
resolved already.

As the sun is about to come up here, it is time for me to
go to bed. I probably won't, but in any case, I think it is time
that this issue was put to bed for the moment.

I would request that no further action be taken by anyone.
The matter may well be in hand and there is no need for
anyone to go inciting riots or anything.

Please be cool and let me keep a watching brief on it.

Thanks to all who replied on the piclist and privately.

I intend to follow up with some details and case history but
I am just too tired to write it all up now.

Be cool and thanks again.

Regards,

Jim Robertson
NEWFOUND ELECTRONICS






2005\04\14@160717 by Spehro Pefhany

picon face
At 03:33 PM 4/14/2005 -0400, you wrote:
> >    You should be aware that the item you are bidding on
> >    is an UNAUTHORIZED "pirate" copy of the warp13 programmer
> >    (as per Jim Robertson who designed and sold this device
> >    for years) Please see:
> >    http://www.newfoundelectronics.com/
>
>
>James,
>
>I'd be careful here.  Truth is, of course, an absolute defense to slander,
>but if there's more to the story there can be trouble.
>
>Just one arrogant lawyer's opinion ;-)
>
>Cheers,
>
>Win Wiencke
>Image Logic Corporation

Yes, this kind of thing can get you kicked off eBay as auction interference,
since (theoretically, anyway), it's none of James' business. That seems
to be eBay's attitude, I suspect mostly to prevent competitors from
sending that sort of message (some still do).

But, BRAVO, to James, I say!

Best regards,

Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the reward"
EraseMEspeffspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTinterlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com




2005\04\14@163128 by Mike Hord

picon face
> Yes, this kind of thing can get you kicked off eBay as auction interference,
> since (theoretically, anyway), it's none of James' business. That seems
> to be eBay's attitude, I suspect mostly to prevent competitors from
> sending that sort of message (some still do).
>
> But, BRAVO, to James, I say!

Indeed.  I used ebay's built-in tool to report a possible counterfeit
object.  They'll investigate.

I also put my money where my mouth is and sent an e-mail directly
to the sales e-mail link on the address I previously posted.  Below
is a quote of the response I (immediately) received, with my letter
included:

My original e-mail:

{Quote hidden}

Their response:

> I'm trying to work out deal with Jim, but I have no respond from him yet.
> Unit I'm selling on ebay is the demo I made (one unit).
> If Jim is not interested in it, I won't make or sell any.
> Zibby

SOUNDS reasonable enough.  I hope so.

As to HOW one can tell it is a knockoff, it's pretty obvious from the
photo on the ebay auction.  Nowhere on that PCB does it say
"Newfound Electronics", nor does it have a substantial amount of
the other silkscreening a "real" WARP-13a does.

And now I see that the auction has been withdrawn.

Mike H.

2005\04\14@171648 by Jim Robertson

flavicon
face


Folks, Please I need to hear from anyone who has a pic
programmer that is marked as a "WARP13A" (as opposed
to "WARP-13a") and does not have NEWFOUND
ELECTRONICS printed on the overlay.

It appears I have been lied to and that this matter is NOT
resolved. It now appears counterfeit WARP-13s have been
sold on ebay for quite sometime, possibly for two years.

I will do the right thing by anyone who does the right thing
by me so please don't be shy. Act now to avoid being
disadvantaged later. If I don't know about you then you cannot
be informed on how to prevent future WARP-13 software
from detecting the counterfeit (and ...?)

Not withstanding the now double deception, I still request that
no one do anything against any party until I get to the bottom of
this.

Thank-you every one for your cooperation.

Regards,

Jim Robertson
NEWFOUND ELECTRONICS







{Quote hidden}

2005\04\14@173438 by csb

flavicon
face
If you need old versions of your website, you might give
http://www.archive.org a try, with the Wayback Machine.
It has been archiving websites for ~10 years now. So if
you need evidence of copyright notices, or whatever...
Just an idea.

Good luck,
Christian

2005\04\14@173506 by R. I. Nelson

picon face
part 0 44 bytes
his is a multi-part message in MIME format.
part 1 1913 bytes content-type:text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed (decoded 7bit)

Being Familiar with Ebay I can tell you the following:
Ebay will prevent him from selling them on Ebay if you satisfy them that
you own the rights.
Ebay will not do anything if anyone else tells them.  Only you have that
right.

If you can get a law enforcement agency to request it they will release  
everything they know about this guy and his complete history with ebay.  
But only to a proper agency such as police sheriff dept etc.

Read this article VERY SCARY mfor the bad guy who wishes to mis use EBAY
for illeagle activeties.
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=264863&;contrassID=2&subContrassID=5&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y8/03
<http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=264863&;contrassID=2&subContrassID=5&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y8/03>

Bob
Jim Robertson wrote:

{Quote hidden}


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2005\04\14@190358 by Russell McMahon

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It looks like something worked.
It now says:

   "The seller ended this listing early because the item
     is no longer available for sale."

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=73154&item=7507543289&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW#ShippingPayment


       RM

2005\04\15@032228 by ThePicMan

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At 10.49 2005.04.14 -0700, you wrote:
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First thing he SHOULD do is to write a note to eBay asking the auction to
be removed (for the obvious reasons). They will 99.9% do it.

2005\04\15@032229 by ThePicMan

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At 14.46 2005.04.14 -0400, you wrote:
>ThePicMan wrote:
>
>>1) write to eBay.
>>
>>2) if you throwed away the project, why bother if others continue it? think about the users' good.
>>
>>
>
>Jim has been posting updated software and hardware mods on his web page continuously - even up to about a week ago, last I checked.  And without asking any money from users.

Ok, whatever are his reasons, he should apply 1) immediately.

Then we could also all "mailbomb" the lamer and tell him not to sell pirated Warp13a anymore.




2005\04\15@054454 by Jim Robertson
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Here is a bit of a running update on the counterfeit WARP-13
situation.

There has been a rather unexpected development, there are  (at least)
two parties involved with posting WARP-13 copies on ebay.

A satisfactory resolve with az-electronics, the party who has been
subject to this piclist thread, looks likely and again I ask that no one
take any further action. This guy may well have been caught out selling
a one-off.  There are a number of factors that both support and
suggest otherwise but at this time I am prepared to accept this is the case
but keep what else I know "up my sleeve."

I have given him some instructions as to how I expect my rights to be
protected and hopefully that is the end of the matter.

Thanks for all the help and offers of help I received.

Now my attention turns to someone trading as MAXBEST100.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4661&item=3867436671#ebayphotohosting

Anyone who bought a WARP-13 from this guy on ebay really does
need to contact me privately using this email address.

@spam@antipiratingKILLspamspamnewfoundelectronics.com

It is my intention to stop further copies being sold, discover how many have
been sold, verify that these copies at least are accurate and to enter an
arrangement with people who bought in good faith so as they are not unduly
disadvantaged.

As there may well be anti pirating measures in the next software update,
it is important that anyone with a "WARP-13" that does not have
NEWFOUND ELECTRONICS printed on it contact me otherwise they
may be frozen out of all future updates.

Thanks again to all who have helped.

Regards,

Jim Robertson
NEWFOUND ELECTRONICS






{Quote hidden}

2005\04\15@060255 by ThePicMan

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At 19.37 2005.04.15 +1000, you wrote:
>As there may well be anti pirating measures in the next software update,
>it is important that anyone with a "WARP-13" that does not have
>NEWFOUND ELECTRONICS printed on it contact me otherwise they
>may be frozen out of all future updates.

And how do you do that, technically speaking?


2005\04\15@062541 by Alan B. Pearce

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>Anyone who bought a WARP-13 from this guy on ebay really does
>need to contact me privately using this email address.

I guess from your point of view, your problem will be where he is based
(according to the page, in Poland)

I just checked both ebay.co.uk and eBay.de where I have regularly bought
things and nothing comes up under "warp13*" or "warp-13*" on either of them.

I notice that link you posted ended early with "buy-it-now". I have seen
this done by sellers of pirate CDs, putting an item on for only a day or
two, to minimise detection, and then ending the auction on the first bid,
without using b-i-n. They state in the text that this is how they will
operate. You may need to have a bot of some sort searching every hour or so
to catch the items offered.

2005\04\15@075613 by Josh Koffman

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On 4/15/05, Jim Robertson <RemoveMEjimplTakeThisOuTspamnewfoundelectronics.com> wrote:
> As there may well be anti pirating measures in the next software update,
> it is important that anyone with a "WARP-13" that does not have
> NEWFOUND ELECTRONICS printed on it contact me otherwise they
> may be frozen out of all future updates.

Jim, it appears from the photo in the auction that you linked to that
the board does indeed still say Newfound Electronics in the bottom
right hand corner. It doesn't say "http://www.new-elect.com" like mine does,
but I suspect that's a change you made when you switched website
addresses.

Josh
--
A common mistake that people make when trying to design something
completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
fools.
       -Douglas Adams

2005\04\15@082613 by olin_piclist

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Jim Robertson wrote:
> As there may well be anti pirating measures in the next software update,

I don't see how you're going to do that unless the pirates messed the copies
so there is a way to distinguis between the two from the firmware.


*****************************************************************
Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts
(978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com

2005\04\15@091757 by Bob Axtell

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Olin Lathrop wrote:

> Jim Robertson wrote:
>
>> As there may well be anti pirating measures in the next software update,
>
>
> I don't see how you're going to do that unless the pirates messed the
> copies
> so there is a way to distinguis between the two from the firmware.
>
>
> *****************************************************************
> Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts
> (978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com

er, and the Polish Warp13 is upgradeable by bootloader (no chip changes).
Sounds like it might not be the same design...? just the same NAME?

--Bob

--
Note: To protect our network,
attachments must be sent to
spamBeGoneattachspamBeGonespamengineer.cotse.net .
1-866-263-5745 USA/Canada
http://beam.to/azengineer

2005\04\15@092720 by Philip Pemberton

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In message <TakeThisOuT5.1.0.14.2.20050415120302.00ac9940EraseMEspamspam_OUTpop3.infinito.it>>          ThePicMan <RemoveMEthepicmanspamTakeThisOuTinfinito.it> wrote:

> At 19.37 2005.04.15 +1000, you wrote:
> >As there may well be anti pirating measures in the next software update,
> >it is important that anyone with a "WARP-13" that does not have
> >NEWFOUND ELECTRONICS printed on it contact me otherwise they
> >may be frozen out of all future updates.
>
> And how do you do that, technically speaking?

A Dallas Semiconductor DS2432 SHA-1 lockchip?
Serial numbers in the PIC EEPROM? The idea is that you put a serial number in
everyone's device that can't be read using the HVP/LVP/ICSP interface. You
check the serial number against a list of barred serial numbers in the
firmware, and against the server when you do a firmware upgrade. Two hits
from different countries with the same S/N --> add to the blocklist.

You can rule out unscrupulous persons generating random serials by CRCing
them. Also encrypt the firmware when it gets bootloaded - make the encryption
vary based on the serial number or something. If the S/N is blocked, jam the
target device in bootloader mode.

Later.
--
Phil.                              | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB,
philpemEraseMEspam.....philpem.me.uk              | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice,
http://www.philpem.me.uk/          | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI
... Last yur I kudnt spel modjerater now I are won.

2005\04\15@094651 by Rich Mulvey

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Bob Axtell wrote:

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  Or the pirate is using the old bootloader system, like the Warp-13
used up until last year.  It was only after that when the images became
directly burnable.

- Rich


2005\04\15@095203 by Josh Koffman

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Or he copied the text from an older version of Jim's website. The
Warp-13a was supposed to be bootload upgradable...however a silicon
bug killed that. Jim mentioned that in a thread a little while back.

Josh

--
A common mistake that people make when trying to design something
completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
fools.
       -Douglas Adams

On 4/15/05, Bob Axtell <EraseMEengineerspamcotse.net> wrote:
> er, and the Polish Warp13 is upgradeable by bootloader (no chip changes).
> Sounds like it might not be the same design...? just the same NAME?

2005\04\15@103049 by ThePicMan

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At 14.22 2005.04.15 +0100, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Yes, but can this be applied to all genuine original Warp-13a released so far?


2005\04\15@104229 by Jim Robertson

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Firstly, I am happy to say the matter with az-electronics is now
fully resolved. I have received a satisfactory explanation and
an apology.  This matter is now closed.

Now I just to let WARP-13 owners know, all files have been put
back on my web site.  There appears to be no current wide spread
copying at this time so why disadvantage WARP-13 owners.

Just to let others know, the information on the Polish guy's
ebay site is also copied from either the NEWFOUND
ELECTRONICS web site and/or from one of my resellers.

And why not, if it is good enough to copy the WARP-13, lift
my software and firmware and then refer technical support
requests to my web site, why not go for the grand slam and
take everything. (Hell, we weren't even married.  :-)

The WARP-13 picture is not a picture of his copy (it is actually
a picture belonging to one of my former resellers who was not
impressed but failed to take any action.)

The text claiming the firmware can be updated via bootloader is
not true. What is true is that he has older firmware (all with the
same serial number) and its capabilities do not match the claims of
the text as the text describes the next generation firmware (and
this did have a bootloader, well it did until microchip killed it with a
silicon bug.)

For sometime, unsuspecting customers of his have been
contacting me regarding incompatibilities between the software
and firmware. This guy has left bit if a trail and one rather
irate customer has provided full details of this guy's home
address right down to his phone number, you know, the one
that just could ring at 3:15AM one or two nights a month. ;-)

It needs to be explained that I knew of this guy selling WARP-13s
on ebay but I had assumed (wrongly) that he purchased his stock
from az-electronics as Mr, AZ purchased some from me but then
quickly disappeared overseas and had closed his business down
(temporarily at least.)

I wrongly put two and two together and failed to shut down the
Polish guy as I though he had genuine WARP-13s and had every
right to be selling them on ebay. For some time there was a
warning message on my web site about certain inaccuracies
in the claims he was making, and I did advise potential buyers to
buy through my recognized reseller chain but that is a far as
I went, (damn it!)

Ok, time to contact ebay again.

Regards,

Jim Robertson
NEWFOUND ELECTRONICS







2005\04\15@114843 by Harold Hallikainen

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Interesting situation! I'm wondering on what basis you're working against
the pirates. I'm guessing you have a trademark on WARP-13, so someone
using that name for a product not made by you confuses or misleads the
customer as to the origin of the product (classic trademark infringement).
Is there also copyright infringement on the board artwork and/or code?

Harold


--
FCC Rules Updated Daily at http://www.hallikainen.com

2005\04\15@120644 by Bradley Ferguson

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On 4/15/05, Jim Robertson <RemoveMEjimplTakeThisOuTspamspamnewfoundelectronics.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

It strikes me that a good way to prevent this would be to simply
maintain an eBay presence with your programmer.  Once a week, set up a
7-day auction of one programmer, and have an eBay "saved search"
looking for the pirated programmers.  Email eBay when there is a
pirate and people will still be able to get the *real* programmer from
you, which, one would assume, would be preferred for most people--this
would lower the value of the pirate programmer.  They are at all
successful because there is a market for the item.  This would just be
one (somewhat easy) way of eliminating this "black" market.

Although, perhaps the pirates weren't getting enough money, in which
case, are they going to continue?  Perhaps it isn't worth your time,
but you still want to protect your IP--then you should convince one of
your resellers to resell on eBay.

Bradley

2005\04\15@135012 by Mark Rages

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On 4/15/05, Bradley Ferguson <EraseMEbradleyeespamspamspamBeGonegmail.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Maybe you could license the diesgn to az-electronics or somebody else.
Satisfy the market demand and get the occasional royalty check.

Regards,
Mark
markrages@gmail
--
You think that it is a secret, but it never has been one.
 - fortune cookie

2005\04\17@203546 by onio (Nino) Benci

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This is regrettable. Jim has offered an excellent product for many
years. We have enjoyed his backup service with no problems. All it takes
to spoil it for everyone is one lousy cheapskate.

Nino.

Jim Robertson wrote:

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2005\04\18@082951 by Pierre Desrochers

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NƦ[bgs0Gf

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