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'[PIC] Some random thoughts regarding tutorials'
2005\11\02@204750 by Neil Baylis

picon face
--> Fourth, after reading a good deal, it seems clear that building a
programmer, rather than buying one, is a good idea for a newbie like
me. <--

Well, I agree with you on this one. It's exactly what I did. Partly
because the vast majority of programmers available work only on PCs,
and I use a Mac, but also because I wanted to be sure that when
somehting went wrong I could figure it out and fix it myself. I built
a programmer that connects to a standard serial port. I only required
it to program one kind of PIC, which is the one I use for all my
projects.. the 18F1220. I used an ordinary UART for the programmer, so
I could build it without it needing any intelligence. Whatever
intelligence there is, is in the computer. I wrote an ordinary
application to talk to the serial port, using ordinary unix serial
port calls. It works fine. It was fun, too.

2005\11\03@075335 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
I agree that Wis628 is the best programmer to build so far. It is relatively
easy to build and quite stable. It also works across major OSes. The only
issue is that one needs a pre-programmed 12F628A.

And quite interesting that the OP is now planning to build a programmer very
soon after he starts the research. He has done a good research, I should say.
His observation regarding the tutorials and the importance of basic electronics
in the PIC world are quite correct. It seems to me that PIClist has more
people with strong software background and relatively weaker hardware
background. That is why [EE] tag is good to have.

That being said, I will still recommend the OP to buy a PICkit 2 and the
accompanied Low Pin Count demo board. The LPC demo board is quite easy to
built though so it is actually a better exercise than Wisp628. ;-)

If the OP is looking at dsPIC, then an ICD2 should be seriously considered.
The Microchip Forum is a nice place to go with PIC problems related to
dsPIC and PIC18. PIClist is somewhat lack in the discussions in these
topics.

Regards,
Xiaofan

2005\11\03@133651 by Darrell Wyatt

picon face


Bravo, Olin -
Let me add that Bill isn't asking to be spoon-fed, either.
It's refreshing to see someone taking the initiative to
learn on thier own.
D.


{Quote hidden}

2005\11\03@174931 by Mike Singer

picon face
Olin Lathrop wrote:
> For the rest of you listening in, don't expect me to be
> giving things away on a regular basis.

The subtle difference is that all the Lord's deliverances were meant
to be for free.
In Olin's case for free was only the embarkation on the boat, seats
assignment was clearly said to be not always for free ;-)

It's a fair business, no charity.

Mike.

Olin Lathrop wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2005\11\04@024030 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> The subtle difference is that all the Lord's deliverances were meant
> to be for free.
> In Olin's case for free was only the embarkation on the boat, seats
> assignment was clearly said to be not always for free ;-)
> It's a fair business, no charity.

Did I miss something? IIRC Olin offered something, without any strings
attached, and no 'additional purchases' required to get the thing
working.


Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2005\11\04@133337 by Mike Hord

picon face
> Just out of pretty much idle
> curiosity, who wrote that particular one?

Here's the changelog, FWIW-
en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=PIC_microcontroller&limit=500&action=history
http://tinyurl.com/a6bmo

A few actual names, some cutesy usernames,
and a whole lot of IP addresses.  The beauty of
course is that anyone can edit it.  Don't like the
missing references to Wouter and Olin?  Add
them.  Feeling particularly generous/bored?
Add an article detailing the instruction set, or
a page with a parametric list of all the PICs
in existance.  Or even a page detailing the
construction of that wonderful PIC programmer
that you made last year.

Wikipedia is edited for appropriateness of
content (i.e., blatantly pornographic or fictional
content would likely be removed quite quickly),
but almost any topic, in almost any level of
detail, is allowable.  For example, the articles
about Ayn Rand's book Atlas Shrugged,
Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series, and the
TV series Firefly all go into quite serious depth,
linking to subarticles about fictional characters,
places, events, etc., with a level of devotion
usually only found on fansites.

Mike H.
Out-of-the-closet wikipedia addict

2005\11\04@133809 by William Couture

face picon face
On 11/4/05, John Nall <.....jwnallKILLspamspam.....gmail.com> wrote:
> they list "Microchip
> programmers," but none of those produced by people like Wouter, Olin
> and others. Not that there is anything wrong with listing the ones made
> by Microchip, of course, since they make good stuff.  But for someone
> looking for information at the wikipedia seems like it would be nice to
> have it as complete as possible.

Since this is a wiki, make the change yourself.  Click the '[ edit ]'
link in the
lower right-hand corner of the appropriate section, and add the information
you want.

Also, note that 'GPUTILS' and 'GPSIM' (and some others) are just waiting
for someone to create entries.

Bill

--
Psst...  Hey, you... Buddy...  Want a kitten?  straycatblues.petfinder.org

2005\11\04@134956 by John Nall

picon face
William Couture wrote:
> > Since this is a wiki, make the change yourself.  Click the '[ edit ]'
> link in the
> lower right-hand corner of the appropriate section, and add the information
> you want.
>  
Hey, now . . . just because I think something should be done does not
mean that I am volunteering to do it!!  :-)
> Also, note that 'GPUTILS' and 'GPSIM' (and some others) are just waiting
> for someone to create entries.
>  
Yes, lots of good stuff that needs to be put in there.  I'll give some
thought to it. Maybe I will do some editing of the thing, as reluctant
as I might be to get involved with wizards (since they are subtle, and
quick to anger).

2005\11\05@065537 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
Neil Baylis wrote:

> --> Fourth, after reading a good deal, it seems clear that building a
> programmer, rather than buying one, is a good idea for a newbie like
> me. <--
>
> Well, I agree with you on this one. It's exactly what I did.

Me, OTOH, I'm with Olin on this one. I kind of do this for a living
(switching between mainly software and mainly firmware/hardware back and
forth), I have used probably a dozen or more programmers in different
environments, but I've never built one. Not a single one... As Olin said,
there's more to a good programmer than I care to know about it :)

I'd rather spend the time building something that does with the PIC what I
want it to do, than spend the time learning the finer details of what's
necessary to get it programmed. IMO this is a task more suited for the few
who chose building programmers and selling them as their line of business.

OTOH... it may be a satisfaction to have a set of tools all self-made. Not
quite 100% possible (you probably need some sort of multimeter to start
with, and few will make their screw drivers :) but still...

Gerhard

2005\11\05@105631 by Neil Baylis

picon face
Gerhard,

> Me, OTOH, I'm with Olin on this one. I kind of do this for a living
> (switching between mainly software and mainly firmware/hardware back and
> forth),

Me too. I've used more programmers, ICEs, simulators, logic analysers
and scopes than I care to remember. I'm continually switching like
you, currently doing a lot of Unix driver level code that's very
hardware oriented.. PCI, Fibre Channel, etc.

When I first began this career, the third party tools were universally
bad. Those from the device manufacturer were not much better. One was
always making something, tweaking something, adapting something, just
to get anything done at all.

I remember many times, making microcode for bit-slice 2901 devices.
The microcode was stored in bipolar PROMs. They were very expensive,
so when we had to change the code, we had to find a solution that
could be implemented by overblowing the devices. I.e., you can't erase
them, so you need a patch that only changes 1s to 0s, not the other
way round.

I never want to do that again ;-) But there was a certain spirit of
adventure in it that's worth holding on to.

> I have used probably a dozen or more programmers in different
> environments, but I've never built one. Not a single one... As Olin said,
> there's more to a good programmer than I care to know about it :)

I would aggree with this, if by 'Good programmer' you mean something
like the Data I/O brand that's all things to all people. I on the
other hand, only needed to program one kind of PIC reliably. I made it
so I could single step it, clock by clock, to verify that it was doing
the  right thing. Guess what? You can program PICs at one bit per
hour, if you want. They're quite static in the programming mode.
>
> OTOH... it may be a satisfaction to have a set of tools all self-made. Not
> quite 100% possible (you probably need some sort of multimeter to start
> with, and few will make their screw drivers :) but still...
>

Yes, I like this attitude as well. In the early days, I would
frequently use a transistor radio as a debugging aid. You just tune it
between stations so it produces noise, and then listen as your
microprocessor starts up. So I do somewhat like doing things my way.
I'm currently building a nice frequency counter that incudes a PIC. I
learned a lot building it from the ground up, including the
programmer. I had to write a programming utility of course. I do have
a nice multimeter, and a set of real HP logic probes that I found on
eBay for $70. Those are amazingly useful.

Some folks write their own languages, but I'm not so interested in
that any more, having done it in the past. I just used the gputils
tools, and they ran perfectly on my Mac. I use the Mac Xcode
development environment, so I get a nice IDE. I wouldn't think of
trying to make that myself. I never bothered with SDCC, because I'm
already very comfortable in assembler, and my projects aren't big
enough for it to matter. If I had to fill something say twice as big
as an 18f1220, perhaps I might choose C.

Interestingly, I've somehow ended up with one PIC that refuses to
write to its own flash. I can write to its flash using my home made
programmer, and everything else works fine. All the other PICs I have
can write their flash both ways. Weird, huh?

Neil

--
http://www.pixpopuli.com

2005\11\06@082856 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
Neil Baylis wrote:

>> I have used probably a dozen or more programmers in different
>> environments, but I've never built one. Not a single one... As Olin
>> said, there's more to a good programmer than I care to know about it :)
>
> I would aggree with this, if by 'Good programmer' you mean something
> like the Data I/O brand that's all things to all people. I on the other
> hand, only needed to program one kind of PIC reliably. I made it so I
> could single step it, clock by clock, to verify that it was doing the
> right thing. Guess what? You can program PICs at one bit per hour, if
> you want. They're quite static in the programming mode.

I understand that... but I guess what I was trying to get at is that I'd
rather spend my time accumulating experience in, say, hooking up CAN nodes
over 100 m and what's involved with that, than finding out the latest
errata issue in PIC programming :)  That's what people like Olin do, and I
usually try to select one (or a company) who does that well so I can rely
on it.

Anyway, it doesn't matter... just some thoughts, and everybody to his/her
liking :)

Gerhard

2005\11\10@224958 by Mike Singer

picon face
Wouter van Ooijen wrote:
> Did I miss something? IIRC Olin offered something, without any strings
> attached, and no 'additional purchases' required to get the thing
> working.

MS offers a lot of for free, and everyone knows it's not a charity.
Olin does the same, and this means just that he takes it seriously.

Regards,
Mike.

2005\11\11@005842 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face

>> Olin offered something, without any strings attached...

It can be difficult to give things away; it means sending some
stranger you real address, which is a documented no-no for certain
classes of individuals ("kids" for instance), and perhaps not a
good idea for anyone :-(

BillW

2005\11\11@023149 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> > Did I miss something? IIRC Olin offered something, without
> any strings
> > attached, and no 'additional purchases' required to get the thing
> > working.
>
> MS offers a lot of for free, and everyone knows it's not a charity.
> Olin does the same, and this means just that he takes it seriously.

Yet free is free, in this case as in free beer, whether from Olin or
from Microsoft.

AFAIK nothing is ever totally free, it is just that you (or someone
else) pays for it in a way that you don't mind. Free publicity, social
status, whatever.

I provide my Wisp628 design freely for inidvidual builders (afaik Olin
does the same). Is that realy for free? Of course not! At least the
builder has visited my site, and he uses my programmer. That's two hooks
I have on him. And it increases my 'social status' on the piclist.

So: things can be free in the $0 sense yet cost something in another
way. The art (for both producer and cosumer) is to find win-win ways.

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2005\11\11@090322 by Mike Singer

picon face
William Chops Westfield  wrote:

> It can be difficult to give things away; it means
> sending some stranger you real address,

I'm sure you can supply fake address, say, to DHL.
Just call them and say you are coming to their office for the device.

Mike.

2005\11\11@090709 by olin piclist

face picon face
William Chops Westfield wrote:
> It can be difficult to give things away; it means sending some
> stranger you real address, which is a documented no-no for certain
> classes of individuals ("kids" for instance), and perhaps not a
> good idea for anyone :-(

OK, I give up.  You have uncovered my evil plot to get his address.  Once I
had his mailing address, I was going to use that to find bank account
numbers, credit card numbers, phone numbers, PINs, and all the random
numbers he ever thought of.  Of course that would have been impossible if he
actually *paid* for the stuff I was going to ship to his address.

Obviously my intent in giving something away was to insult the recipient,
get him hooked on my stuff, and commit fraud.  Now that you've caught me, I
know I can't get away with that any more and will go back to charging for
stuff I send out.  You guys are just too sharp for me to get away with
anything as dastardly as (shudder) giving away free merchandise.


******************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, (978) 742-9014.  #1 PIC
consultant in 2004 program year.  http://www.embedinc.com/products

2005\11\11@092614 by Bill Kuncicky

picon face
Olin Lathrop wrote:
> > OK, I give up.  You have uncovered my evil plot to get his address.  
> Once I
> had his mailing address, I was going to use that to find bank account
> numbers, credit card numbers, phone numbers, PINs, and all the random
> numbers he ever thought of.  
Guess I should chime in here, since I was the one that Olin made  the
offer to.  To me it was a very generous offer, and I wish that I had
just taken it when it was offered.  But I didn't -- foolish pride and
all that sort of tommyrot.  Anyway, in the meantime, one of the
piclister's gave me a second chance by offering me a used Wisp628
(offlist, of course) which he had no further use for because he had
gotten an ICD2.  So in spite of my original stupidity in turning down
Olin's officer, I do have a programmer.  But I most certainly never
perceived any "strings" to Olin's offer.  And by the way, for what it is
worth, I have gotten a *lot* of offlist emails chastising me for my
behavior.  Which are deserved, I guess.  I'll grow up, though.  :-)

Take care,
Bill

2005\11\11@093921 by Jan-Erik Soderholm

face picon face
> William Chops Westfield wrote:
> >
> > It can be difficult to give things away; it means sending some
> > stranger you real address, which is a documented no-no for certain
> > classes of individuals ("kids" for instance), and perhaps not a
> > good idea for anyone :-(
>

and Olin wrote :

> OK, I give up.  You have uncovered my evil plot to get his
> address.  Once I had his mailing address, I was going to use
> that to find bank account numbers, ..., phone numbers,...

I don't get it.

I have both address, bank account no and phone number
on my web page : http://www.jescab.se/Kontakt1.htm

What is the problem here ??

Jan-Erik.



2005\11\11@104047 by Carey Fisher - NCS

face picon face

  > and Olin wrote :
  >
  > > OK, I give up.  You have uncovered my evil plot to get his
  > > address.  Once I had his mailing address, I was going to use
  > > that to find bank account numbers, ..., phone numbers,...
  >
  > I don't get it.
  >
  > I have both address, bank account no and phone number
  > on my web page : http://www.jescab.se/Kontakt1.htm
  >
  > What is the problem here ??
  >
  > Jan-Erik.

Oh jeez....  where do you start?

2005\11\11@113253 by Howard Winter

face
flavicon
picon face
Olin,

I seem to have missed the start of this thread, but I think I can see what happened...

On Fri, 11 Nov 2005 09:08:16 -0500, Olin Lathrop wrote:

{Quote hidden}

Hey, don't be disillusioned - you can send me as much free stuff as you like!  (Err... "within reason"!  :-)

I have learned a number of things from what I have seen of this thread, for example it seems to be a
requirement in the USA that something sent through the post has to have a return address.  How do you send
anonymous Valentine cards?  Or am I the only old romantic/evil stalker on here?

I don't see the worry about publishing bank details - you do so whenever you send someone a cheque, so it's
not exactly secret, and as Jan-Erik implied from his web site, it's common over this side of the pond (at
least on the Continent) to send money by direct transfer, for which account details are obviously needed.  

I wouldn't say "Here's my address, I'm going away for three weeks and I leave the key under the mat" in a
public place, but my address isn't secret so the trick is not to mention when I'm going to be away (and where
I leave the key :-).

The only time I've got close to being ripped off financially is when one of my credit cards was cloned somehow
(never did find out how, but they were onto it before I even knew, querying a purchase that I *was* making,
saying it was a "routine security check", but some time later bogus transactions were attempted, and stopped).  
Paying for something by plastic is much more risky than giving someone your address, IMHO.

Incidentally, Olin, I never did give any feedback on the Proto boards I bought - I'll do that when I get a
minute.

Cheers,

Howard Winter
"Somewhere in England"  :-)


2005\11\11@200217 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
On Nov 11, 2005, at 6:03 AM, Mike Singer wrote:

>
>> It can be difficult to give things away; it means
>> sending some stranger you real address,
>
> I'm sure you can supply fake address, say, to DHL.
> Just call them and say you are coming to their office for the device.
>
Perhaps.  It raises the bother-factor a great deal.  Especially if
you're
in the under-18 crowd that's supposed to be particularly careful.

One thing I've suggested (but not gotten to work) is that the
'real name' and address of a teacher at the kid's school be used.
Or a parent's work address.  But then, kids are encouraged not to let
anyone even know what city they live in, and those suggestions
may look more suspicious than a straight-out request for a shipping
address.

BillW

2005\11\11@201216 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face

On Nov 11, 2005, at 6:08 AM, Olin Lathrop wrote:

>> It can be difficult to give things away; it means sending some
>> stranger you real address

> OK, I give up.  You have uncovered my evil plot to get his address.  
> Once I
> had his mailing address, I was going to use that to find bank account
> numbers, credit card numbers, phone numbers, PINs, and all the random
> numbers he ever thought of.

You don't have children who use the internet, do you?  The fear is
not identity theft, but actual physical danger.  The canonical story is
perhaps this one:

http://www.troopers.state.ny.us/Schools_&_Communities/Internet_Safety/
Internet_Story/

I've tried to give away some "parts kits" on the BEAM robotics yahoo
newsgroup; stuff where I've acquired (either by dumpers-diving or bulk
purchases) much more than I need.  I haven't been successful; I must
be particularly suspicious. :-(

BillW

2005\11\11@205248 by olin piclist

face picon face
William Chops Westfield wrote:
> You don't have children who use the internet, do you?  The fear is
> not identity theft, but actual physical danger.

This is silly.  He isn't some child home alone.  I don't have numbers, but
I'm sure it's far more dangerous to drive to work than giving someone, or
even the whole PIClist, your mailing address.  If you're really that
paranoid, get a PO box.  Also this came up because I offered to send him
something free.  It's funny that nobody thinks there is anything bad about
other folks giving me their mailling addresses when they buy stuff from me.
Somehow it's suddenly a bad idea when the merchandise is free.  I guess deep
down some people can't help looking for conspiracies.  If I'm not taking
money, I must be up to no good.


******************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, (978) 742-9014.  #1 PIC
consultant in 2004 program year.  http://www.embedinc.com/products

2005\11\12@002030 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face

On Nov 11, 2005, at 5:52 PM, Olin Lathrop wrote:

> William Chops Westfield wrote:
>> You don't have children who use the internet, do you?  The fear is
>> not identity theft, but actual physical danger.
>
> This is silly.  He isn't some child home alone.

How do you know that?  "On the Internet, no one knows you're a dog."
I'm a big believer in supporting young technical hobbyists; age 12
through 18 is a fine time to take up PICs...

> I'm sure it's far more dangerous to drive to work than giving someone,
> or even the whole PIClist, your mailing address.

Probably true, but see below...
>

> If you're really that paranoid, get a PO box.

Not doable by 'kids.'


> It's funny that nobody thinks there is anything bad about other folks
> giving me their mailling addresses when they buy stuff from me.

(I didn't mean for my comments to apply to this particular situation,
just to the difficulties of providing helpful stuff in general.)

You're confusing common sense with "rules."  All the adults here have
sufficient judgement and experience to realize that you are the
curmudgeon
adult engineer that you claim and appear to be.  But if you're a 12y old
robotics hobbyist (for instance), you use the internet by permission of
your parents and are expected to follow the rules they set forth.
Accepting an offer of a free pic programmer without explicit permission
is no better than responding to one of the myriad "Get a Sony VAIO
Laptop on us!" sorts of spams that show up in my yahoo bulk mailbox at
a rate of about 100 per week.  (grr.  And really stupid.  It'd be so
much more ... effective if one didn't get N copies per day...)
You probably don't get to make online order on your own at all.

Now, the easiest thing to do is invoke parental cooperation, and GET
the necessary permission, or have them do things for you.  But that
can be easier said than done (or at least it can appear easier said
than done to 12y-olds...)

BillW

2005\11\12@073834 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
William ChopsWestfield wrote:

>>> You don't have children who use the internet, do you?  The fear is
>>> not identity theft, but actual physical danger.
>>
>> This is silly.  He isn't some child home alone.
>
> How do you know that?  

Sometimes it's good to go back to the origins... From the OP's first post
on this thread:

> And just in case you might wonder just what I am doing, let me just say
> that my college education got interupted when the family grew
> unexpectedly, and that now I am an associate manager at a place that
> does a lot of business around lunchtime.  But I have a little corner of
> the bedroom in the apartment that I can use for a workshop, and by
> agreement with my wife the time between 8 PM (after the baby goes to
> sleep) and midnight (when I go to sleep) is mine to further my
> self-education.

Doesn't sound like a child home alone... interrupted college education,
growing family, wife and kid (not to speak of the style)  :)


>> If you're really that paranoid, get a PO box.
>
> Not doable by 'kids.'

But usually kids have parents, at least as long as they are considered
kids. These can get PO boxes or other delivery addresses. Or use an address
from a friend, neighbor, relative.


> Now, the easiest thing to do is invoke parental cooperation, and GET the
> necessary permission, or have them do things for you.  But that can be
> easier said than done (or at least it can appear easier said than done
> to 12y-olds...)

I'm not sure I get it either. Olin is not some anonymous guy out there.
I've never met him, and can't vouch for any of his personal traits, but I
know I would buy a programmer from him any time if I needed one that
matches one that he sells. So what is exactly the difference between a kid
that starts with electronics or robotics buying a programmer (from Olin or
from Digikey, probably through their parents) and that kid getting one for
free from Olin (or from Digikey)?

Or are you saying parents with kids shouldn't buy stuff for their kids?
It's not that obvious with a PIC programmer, but it's quite obvious with
toys. Anyone who wants a database of addresses with kids just needs a temp
job at Toys'r'Us or something similar.


So what is the problem here? Giving out your address may be a problem, but
you do that in /many/ occasions -- for example, whenever you buy something
and have it delivered to you. What's the difference between someone buying
a robotics kit for kids online and have it shipped to his place and giving
Olin his address for him to send a free programmer?

Gerhard

2005\11\12@074112 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
Carey Fisher - NCS wrote:

>>> OK, I give up.  You have uncovered my evil plot to get his address.
>>> Once I had his mailing address, I was going to use that to find bank
>>> account numbers, ..., phone numbers,...
>>
>> I don't get it.
>>
>> I have both address, bank account no and phone number on my web page :
>> http://www.jescab.se/Kontakt1.htm
>>
>> What is the problem here ??
>  
> Oh jeez....  where do you start?

Yes... finding this out (where to start, and possibly to where it leads)
would be a good thing. I have the same question: what's exactly the problem
here?

Gerhard

2005\11\12@084109 by Carey Fisher - NCS

face picon face
  > [EraseMEpiclist-bouncesspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTmit.edu]On Behalf Of Gerhard Fiedler
  > Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2005 7:38 AM
  > To: piclistspamspam_OUTmit.edu
  > Subject: Re: [PIC] Some random thoughts regarding tutorials
  >
  >
  > Carey Fisher - NCS wrote:
  >
  > >>> OK, I give up.  You have uncovered my evil plot to get his address.
  > >>> Once I had his mailing address, I was going to use that to
  > find bank
  > >>> account numbers, ..., phone numbers,...
  > >>
  > >> I don't get it.
  > >>
  > >> I have both address, bank account no and phone number on my
  > web page :
  > >> http://www.jescab.se/Kontakt1.htm
  > >>
  > >> What is the problem here ??
  > >
  > > Oh jeez....  where do you start?
  >
  > Yes... finding this out (where to start, and possibly to where
  > it leads)
  > would be a good thing. I have the same question: what's
  > exactly the problem
  > here?
  >
  > Gerhard
  >
  Identity theft is a growing problem in the US.  For example, If
I know your Bank Name and Account Number, I can transfer
money in and out of your account.  At the minimum I can have
checks printed with your information on them.  At the maximum,
I can, through a little "social engineering", have all your
money transferred out of the country.
"All your bucks (quid, etc) are belong to us"
Carey

2005\11\12@103218 by olin piclist

face picon face
William Chops Westfield wrote:
>> This is silly.  He isn't some child home alone.
>
> How do you know that?

Because he said so.  He was in college, apparently got some girl pregnant,
married her, dropped out and now asks "do you want fries with that" for a
living (some of that is my reading between the lines, perhaps incorrectly).
He knows enough to ask about PICs, and seems to have at least the start of a
technical background.  I can't think of any reason for him to lie about
this.  If he was making up a sob story to get freebies, he wouldn't have
turned down my offer.

>> If you're really that paranoid, get a PO box.
>
> Not doable by 'kids.'

Maybe not directly.  As a parent I don't let my 15 year old son buy anything
on the internet directly (and I make sure he doesn't have the means to do
this anyway).  If he really wants something and we agree its OK for him to
have, my wife or I will order it for him using our name and credit card.  If
I was truly paranoid, I could get a PO box, but I'm not.  In any case, kids
don't need a PO box because they shouldn't (and can't if the parents are
awake) buy anything on line themselves.


******************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, (978) 742-9014.  #1 PIC
consultant in 2004 program year.  http://www.embedinc.com/products

2005\11\12@125837 by Peter

picon face

On Fri, 11 Nov 2005, William Chops Westfield wrote:
> You don't have children who use the internet, do you?  The fear is
> not identity theft, but actual physical danger.  The canonical story is
> perhaps this one:
>
> http://www.troopers.state.ny.us/Schools_&_Communities/Internet_Safety/
> Internet_Story/
>
> I've tried to give away some "parts kits" on the BEAM robotics yahoo
> newsgroup; stuff where I've acquired (either by dumpers-diving or bulk
> purchases) much more than I need.  I haven't been successful; I must
> be particularly suspicious. :-(

What kind of sick place would have people worry about such things ?!

Peter

2005\11\12@130001 by Peter

picon face

On Fri, 11 Nov 2005, Olin Lathrop wrote:

> down some people can't help looking for conspiracies.  If I'm not taking
> money, I must be up to no good.

Now, look at all tose freeby generators out there in this context ;-)
(as in, free/open source software)

Peter

2005\11\12@205104 by Danny Sauer

flavicon
face
Peter wrote regarding 'Re: [PIC] Some random thoughts regarding
tutorials' on Sat, Nov 12 at 12:00:
> What kind of sick place would have people worry about such things ?!

The US, where everyone's a terrorist just waiting to corrupt the minds
of children and/or kill everyone else? :)

Anyway, I've had good luck giving stuff away through the local branch
of http://freecycle.org/.  Even geeky stuff that I thought no one
would want.

--Danny

2005\11\13@073432 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
Carey Fisher - NCS wrote:

> Identity theft is a growing problem in the US.  

I know that, even though I'm not sure I understand all the details why this
is such a problem in the USA (compared to other countries). In fact I'm
pretty sure I /don't/ understand the details... :)

> For example, If I know your Bank Name and Account Number, I can transfer
> money in and out of your account.  

I've always wondered (and continue to wonder) why the US banks (and their
customers) stay with such an antiquated (and insecure, and inefficient)
system.


But that wasn't the question. The question was: what is the difference
between buying a programmer from Olin (in addition to my address I would be
giving him my credit card number, possibly including the security code) and
getting a programmer for free from Olin (only giving him my address)? Why
is the free programmer and the information exchange involved with it more
dangerous than the bought programmer?

Gerhard

2005\11\13@091035 by Jan-Erik Soderholm

face picon face
Carey Fisher - NCS wrote :

> Identity theft is a growing problem in the US.  For example, If
> I know your Bank Name and Account Number, I can transfer
> money in and out of your account.

In yes, I've no problem with that ! :-)
Out ? No, only I can do that.

> At the minimum I can have
> checks printed with your information on them.

Checks ? In Sweden (and most other parts of the world
with a developed bank system world) we stopped using
paper-checks aprox 10-15 years ago...

But even at *that* time, I would have been protected by
my bank anyway, since it would have been the banks
fault to clear that check.

> At the maximum,
> I can, through a little "social engineering", have all your
> money transferred out of the country.

Of course you can't.

Jan-Erik.



2005\11\13@145441 by Mike Singer

picon face
Jan-Erik Soderholm  wrote:

> > At the maximum,
> > I can, through a little "social engineering", have all your
> > money transferred out of the country.
>
> Of course you can't.

This guy can

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Mitnick

2005\11\14@061758 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>> I've tried to give away some "parts kits" on the BEAM robotics yahoo
>> newsgroup; stuff where I've acquired (either by dumpers-diving or bulk
>> purchases) much more than I need.  I haven't been successful; I must
>> be particularly suspicious. :-(
>
>What kind of sick place would have people worry about such things ?!

Believe me - it comes when you least expect it. I am having to deal with the
fallout from a club member who has suddenly been found to be abusing
children. No-one within the club believed it was possible of him.

2005\11\14@082719 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
>>What kind of sick place would have people worry about such things ?!
>
> Believe me - it comes when you least expect it. I am having
> to deal with the
> fallout from a club member who has suddenly been found to be abusing
> children. No-one within the club believed it was possible of him.

We have had exactly the same situation with out electronics club.
Sickening.

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2005\11\15@161046 by Sean Schouten

face picon face
>
> We have had exactly the same situation with out electronics club.
> Sickening.



What? The whole club turned out to be abbusing children? Did they do that by
zapping em with a couple of Kv?

2005\11\15@164249 by Danny Sauer

flavicon
face
Sean wrote regarding 'Re: [PIC] Some random thoughts regarding tutorials' on Tue, Nov 15 at 15:18:
> > We have had exactly the same situation with out electronics club.
> > Sickening.
>
> What? The whole club turned out to be abbusing children? Did they do that by
> zapping em with a couple of Kv?

Holy cow!  I guess I missed a lot by not paying attention to *that*
thread...

--Danny, who just happened to look at this particular message

2005\11\15@172256 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> > We have had exactly the same situation with out electronics club.
> > Sickening.
>
> What? The whole club turned out to be abbusing children? Did
> they do that by zapping em with a couple of Kv?

Actually it was only the treasurer and it was sexual abuse. Not at the
club but at his home. When the parent (single parent family often(?)
yields more vulnerable children) found out she informed us (I was chair
at that moment) and the police. The guy had the nerve to ask us to
support him.

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2005\11\16@074735 by Vasile Surducan

face picon face
On 11/13/05, Gerhard Fiedler <@spam@listsKILLspamspamconnectionbrazil.com> wrote:
> Carey Fisher - NCS wrote:
>
> > Identity theft is a growing problem in the US.
>
> I know that, even though I'm not sure I understand all the details why this
> is such a problem in the USA (compared to other countries). In fact I'm
> pretty sure I /don't/ understand the details... :)
>
> > For example, If I know your Bank Name and Account Number, I can transfer
> > money in and out of your account.

In yes, out I have serious doubts you can just so easy.

cheers,
Vasile

2005\11\16@133049 by M Graff

flavicon
face
Vasile Surducan wrote:

>  In yes, out I have serious doubts you can just so easy.

Tell me your bank's routing number and your account number, and we'll
see.  BTW, giving them to me constitutes permission for me to withdrawl
from them, just so you know.  :)

Many places use "electronic checks" which is really just a check that
never physically exists, but is processed like a bank would process one
that does.  Also, electronic transfers are not protected in any useful
way -- I can easily transfer as much money out of your account as you like.

The whole thing is a basis for some of the recent (last 5-8 year)
internet scams where people ask for you to hold on to lots of money for
a short time, then you can keep half.  Just give them your account
number and they will transfer it in.  Then you check your balance, and
it's near 0, and you wonder where it went...  And the bank is not
inclined to help you since you gave them your number and they are
probably in Russia.

--Michael

2005\11\16@140223 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
>>  In yes, out I have serious doubts you can just so easy.
>
> Tell me your bank's routing number and your account number, and we'll
> see.  BTW, giving them to me constitutes permission for me to
> withdrawl
> from them, just so you know.  :)

You Americans (USA-type) seem to think your rules apply to the whole
world. Maybe your legislation states that supplying an account number
implies permission to withdraw money (IMHO that's a stupid rule, but
it's your country, your laws), but it is at the very least unclear
whether that would apply when a non-USA person would give you his
non-USA account number. And the rule in western europe is that the
account numbers of all companies and institutions are public knowledge.
It is almost mandatory to put them on your invoices. When I get a bank
transfer from a public person I get his bank number, as part of the
transaction information. This is the normal practice in my country, and
AFAIK in most of western europe (UK might be an exception).

> I can easily transfer as much money out of your
> account as you like.

Give it a try, let's say for E 16.84 (just a random number, no
connection with any ancient but still popular chip). My account info can
be found at http://www.voti.nl/e_contact.html.

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2005\11\16@142715 by Jan-Erik Soderholm

face picon face
M Graff wrote :

> Tell me your bank's routing number and your account number,...

http://www.jescab.se/Kontakt1.htm

> I can easily transfer as much money out of your
> account as you like.

Very funny...

Jan-Erik.



2005\11\16@152033 by Spehro Pefhany

picon face
At 12:30 PM 11/16/2005 -0600, you wrote:
>Vasile Surducan wrote:
>
>>  In yes, out I have serious doubts you can just so easy.
>
>Tell me your bank's routing number and your account number, and we'll
>see.  BTW, giving them to me constitutes permission for me to withdrawl
>from them, just so you know.  :)

You give out that information freely on the front of every check/cheque you
make out. It's not secret. In fact, the check/cheque is worse because
it gives the recipient a signature sample and a sample check/cheque.

Best regards,

Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the reward"
KILLspamspeffKILLspamspaminterlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com
->> Inexpensive test equipment & parts http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZspeff


2005\11\16@154458 by M Graff

flavicon
face
Wouter van Ooijen wrote:
>>> In yes, out I have serious doubts you can just so easy.
>>
>>Tell me your bank's routing number and your account number, and we'll
>>see.  BTW, giving them to me constitutes permission for me to
>>withdrawl
>>from them, just so you know.  :)
>
>
> You Americans (USA-type) seem to think your rules apply to the whole
> world. Maybe your legislation states that supplying an account number
> implies permission to withdraw money (IMHO that's a stupid rule, but
> it's your country, your laws)

Ahh, true.  BTW, you have to supply it for the purpose of allowing
someone to use it, too.  That is, if I gave it to you for allowing you
to deposit or to cash a single check, you can't use it for other
purposes.  But, there's nothing preventing me from doing it in the bank
world, just laws to punish me after I misuse it.

And yes, this is US laws only, not international.  Sorry I was being
US-centric again.  Trust me, I don't wish our laws on the rest of the
world...

--Michael

2005\11\16@171253 by Sean Schouten

face picon face
>
>
> Actually it was only the treasurer and it was sexual abuse.



He should either be shot or rather raped first, then shot. Same goes for all
others that actually can bring their selves to commiting such an atrocity!

2005\11\16@171925 by Sean Schouten

face picon face
>
> You give out that information freely on the front of every check/cheque
> you
> make out. It's not secret. In fact, the check/cheque is worse because
> it gives the recipient a signature sample and a sample check/cheque.
>
>
Yes, that's why it is safer to use *internet banking* to transfer money.
That way people know everything short of your autograph! That's not the only
plus about online banking! You can see your account balance real time, see
what goes in and what goes out. You can also check the status of direct
debit 'contracts'. Wonderfull. The only thing that pisses me off is that
banks can not transfer money from your account to that of another in
*realtime*; when I transfer money from my savings account to my main
account, it's instant. When I transfer money from my main account to that of
a friends it takes two hours. And that friend has an account at the same
bank!

Sean.

2005\11\16@172059 by Sean Schouten

face picon face
part 1 938 bytes content-type:text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 (decoded base64)

> Yes, that's why it is safer to use *internet banking* to transfer money. > That way people know everything short of your autograph! That's not the only > plus about online banking! You can see your account balance real time, see > what goes in and what goes out. You can also check the status of direct > debit 'contracts'. Wonderfull. The only thing that pisses me off is that > banks can not transfer money from your account to that of another in > *realtime*; when I transfer money from my savings account to my main > account, it's instant. When I transfer money from my main account to that of > a friends it takes two hours. And that friend has an account at the same > bank! > > Sean. > Forgot to mention that the bastards make you pay in €uro's if you need to transfer money in a hurry... I believe that it was around €4.50 (ABN-AMRO). Banks.... Can't live with em, can't live without em!
part 2 35 bytes content-type:text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
(decoded 7bit)

2005\11\16@172135 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
M Graff wrote:

>> You Americans (USA-type)

> Ahh, true.  

The thing is that the differences in how the banking systems work are so
enormous that a (continental?) European (at least a German, and, as it
seems, a Netherlander and a Swede) can not imagine the complications and
insecurities of the US banking system.

And vice versa, it seems that most in the USA who never banked in Europe
don't have a clue how simple the whole story could be.


The most basic, cheapest and most often used financial transaction in
European systems is a direct transfer. The payer advises her bank to
transfer the amount to the payee's account (and has of course the account
number and routing information). The transaction may contain a limited
number of arbitrary text (something like two lines of 40 characters). The
payee receives the money on her account, and on the statement appear the
account number and routing information of the payer's account and the added
text.

This is a one-way street: my bank will only pay out money from my account
based on authorization from me, not from anyone else. (This is in a way
similar to a check, just that this authorization goes directly from me to
my bank. It doesn't go the huge loop a check goes.)

This system provides the infrastructure for many transactions for which the
USA banking system has to create separate mechanisms. Of course you can pay
/all/ your bills that way, not only the ones for which your bank has an
agreement with the vendor (yes, US banks have to set up special agreements
with vendors for bill payment; something a European can't imagine being
necessary) -- because all you need is the vendor's account information
(which usually is on the bill). And you receive your paycheck or invoices
that way; even small mom-and-pop shops pay paychecks this way, just the
same as with big multi-national companies. You pay your taxes that same
way; of course all public entities have accounts for tax payments, and you
just transfer your taxes to the appropriate account. Proof of payment is
included with the transaction: the payee's account number (and, say, the
tax id that you wrote in the additional information text) appears on your
bank statement.

There are of course enhancements and variations; e.g. you can give your
credit card company or your electricity provider authorization to initiate
a transfer and retrieve money from your account to automatically pay their
bills. But any such transactions can be reversed by you without having to
give any reason to the bank; any further dealings are then between you and
the payee, just as if you hadn't paid the bill, leaving the bank completely
out of the loop.

I could go on for a while :)  But seriously, there is a whole world
separating the two systems. I'm sure not many in the USA imagine how
convenient and safe it is to do banking "European style"; if they knew,
they'd bug their own banks more. (And note that this all is not something
recent; I'm 45 and I never knew it differently -- until, of course, I lived
in the USA :)

Gerhard

2005\11\16@220720 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face

On Nov 16, 2005, at 2:12 PM, Sean Schouten wrote:

>> Actually it was only the treasurer and it was sexual abuse.
>
> He should either be shot or rather raped first...

He probably was (raped first.)  As I understand it, that's pretty
much the way the child sexual abuse cycle works...  I've known two
people
now that have ended up in jail on similar charges.  One pled "no
contest" and the other "guilty" and they both went quietly off to jail.
 As if
that would help.  It's a very sad crime; or rather "illness."  Sure,
there are some real monsters out there, but I suspect most of the
guilty fit better into the 'ill' category :-(

(but, getting back to the original off-topic tangent, such things do
seem to be common enough that my kids ought not trust random strangers
on the internet offering free gifts indulging popular hobbies...  The
interesting question is how much of a net-presence ought to dispel that
"random stranger" description.  Both of the abusers I knew were well
known
and respected in their respective circles, and everyone who knew them
were
shocked both by the charges and the quiet acquiescence...)

BillW

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