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'[PIC] Programm pic16f628a'
2004\10\10@212133 by Isao Parra

picon face
Hello,
I want to make a pic-programmer for the 16f628a,
if somebody can suggest me one please!
thanks.
Isao
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2004\10\11@015131 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> I want to make a pic-programmer for the 16f628a,
> if somebody can suggest me one please!
> thanks.

google can.

reading http://www,voti.nl/swp won't do no harm.

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


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2004\10\11@074547 by Byron A Jeff

face picon face
On Sun, Oct 10, 2004 at 09:21:30PM -0400, Isao Parra wrote:
> Hello,
> I want to make a pic-programmer for the 16f628a,
> if somebody can suggest me one please!

Well it depends.

What's your budget?

What type of interfaces do you have on your computer?
(parallel, serial, USB)

What OS and version are your running?

Are you comfortable building your own projects or are
you new to the electronics game?

What kinds of electronics parts do you have access to and
how long will it take for you to get them? I live in Atlanta
where there are a half dozen good parts stores for example.

Are you going to need to do any other chips other than
that 16F628a? As an aside why did you pick that part?
Take a read of my 16F88 page for a potentially better part
for the money:

http://www.finitesite.com/d3jsys/16F88.html

You're going to get a million answers to the question. So
your agenda and talents will determine the right path.

BAJ
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2004\10\11@081958 by Jan-Erik Soderholm

face picon face
> I live in Atlanta where there are a half dozen
> good parts stores for example.

Is that Atlanta/USA ???

Personaly I would never just say I live in Soderkoping, without
at the same time saying it's in Sweden (and possibly also
"Europe" so even readers in the US would have a clue ;-) )...

Jan-Erik.
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2004\10\11@085838 by Byron A Jeff

face picon face
On Mon, Oct 11, 2004 at 02:19:54PM +0200, Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:
> > I live in Atlanta where there are a half dozen
> > good parts stores for example.
>
> Is that Atlanta/USA ???

Atlanta, Georgia, USA
>
> Personaly I would never just say I live in Soderkoping, without
> at the same time saying it's in Sweden (and possibly also
> "Europe" so even readers in the US would have a clue ;-) )...

US-centric. Bad habit. Will work on it.

BAJ
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2004\10\11@094340 by olin_piclist

face picon face
Isao Parra wrote:
> I want to make a pic-programmer for the 16f628a,
> if somebody can suggest me one please!

There are many choices.

If this is a personal project where money is scarce and not equal to time,
consider my EasyProg at http://www.embedinc.com/easyprog.

If this is for commercial in-circuit programming where brick outhouse
reliability is important, consider my ProProg at
http://www.embedinc.com/proprog.  Contact me directly if you are insterested
in the ProProg.  It's not officially released yet, but the pilot run was
successful and it has been shipped to a very small number of customers.  We
are currently arranging the first volume production run.

Wouter will probably talk about his Wisp, which might also be a good fit.
Others have their favorites too.  Byron usually pontificates about how you
should be using a bootloader instead of a programmer in the first place.


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2004\10\11@101949 by John J. McDonough

flavicon
face
----- Original Message -----
From: "Isao Parra" <spam_OUTisao1412TakeThisOuTspamgmail.com>
Subject: [PIC] Programm pic16f628a


> I want to make a pic-programmer for the 16f628a,
> if somebody can suggest me one please!

Isao

I'm surprised you haven't gotten more, different, options, and I'm a little
surprised I haven't seen more emotion <g>

The key question is around what do YOU want.  There are literally hundreds
of options. No one option is best for everyone.

Programming a PIC is really very simple business.  The differences are all
around cost, reliability and flexibility.  Almost all PICs program the same
way as far as the hardware is concerned.  There are some software
differences which can affect your choices.  When looking at the software,
check the supported parts.

Basically there are four options; parallel port, serial port, serial port
and USB port. (Yes, I know I said serial port twice).

In the first two, the PC pins directly manipulate the pins of the PIC to be
programmed, after some amount of level conversion.  These designs are very
simple, cheap, and there are hundreds of them out there.  The parts required
are typically a voltage regulator or two, a few transistors and diodes, and
a handful of resistors.  Besides the programmer itself, you need software to
drive the programmer.  For the first pair of designs, there are again,
hundreds of free bits of software you can use.  Not all the software works
with all the programmers in this category, and not all the software works
with all the PICs.  This means you will likely need to do some digging to
come up with a matching pair.  On the other hand, there are many, many
choices, so you can select what you like.  The parts cost for this sort of
programmer is usually under 10 euro.  You can generally buy this kind of
programmer for anywhere between about 20 and 100 euro depending on the
features, how much support you get, etc.  Note that these programmers do not
work with a USB to serial converter.

For a parallel port programmer, google for "No Parts PIC Programmer".  For
serial and parallel designs, google for PIC Tait.

In the second two, the PC communicates with another processor, usually a
PIC, using the serial or USB line.  This means you need a specially
programmed processor to do the programming, so there is zero chance you
already have all the parts.  These programmers also tend to be more
expensive than the first kind, and since there is no standard for the
communication, you typically can choose only one piece of software, or
perhaps a few as in Wouter's Wisp628.  The big advantage here is that you
can use your USB port or a USB to serial converter.  Given that serial and
parallel ports are becoming scarce, this can be a big deal.

Olin sent you a link for a serial programmer, Wouter has his Wisp628 which
is another popular programmer in this category.

One of the odd bits of Wouter's programmer is that there is no ZIF socket.
This is a good thing.  It is very easy to set up your circuit to program the
PIC already in the circuit. (go to http://www.amqrp.org/elmer160/lessons and
download Appendix B).  This not only saves you the price of a ZIF socket,
but it saves wear and tear on your PIC, and it is a HUGE convenience.
Should you end up with a programmer with a socket, you can simply run five
wires from the socket to your circuit to program in-circuit.

In most cases you will need a 12 volt (nominal) supply.  If the programmer
doesn't require 12 volts, you will be limited in which PICs you can program.

I have assumed that you are using a PC running Windows.  There are fewer
choices for Linux, and for other operating systems, the number of choices
may approach zero.

Hope this helps a little

--McD


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2004\10\11@103507 by olin_piclist

face picon face
Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:
> Is that Atlanta/USA ???
>
> Personaly I would never just say I live in Soderkoping, without
> at the same time saying it's in Sweden (and possibly also
> "Europe" so even readers in the US would have a clue ;-) )...

With a name like "Soderkoping", not too many people are going to think it's
in Botswana.

Actually I agree with your statement, but to be fair to Jeff Atlanta, is the
capital of Georgia (no, not the former people's republic of), which is
larger than a number of European countries.  It would be like you saying you
were in Stockholm (or was that Mbasa?).


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2004\10\11@121442 by Byron A Jeff

face picon face
On Mon, Oct 11, 2004 at 09:43:36AM -0400, Olin Lathrop wrote:
> Isao Parra wrote:
> > I want to make a pic-programmer for the 16f628a,
> > if somebody can suggest me one please!
>
> There are many choices.
>
> If this is a personal project where money is scarce and not equal to time,
> consider my EasyProg at http://www.embedinc.com/easyprog.
>
> If this is for commercial in-circuit programming where brick outhouse
> reliability is important, consider my ProProg at
> http://www.embedinc.com/proprog.  Contact me directly if you are insterested
> in the ProProg.  It's not officially released yet, but the pilot run was
> successful and it has been shipped to a very small number of customers.  We
> are currently arranging the first volume production run.
>
> Wouter will probably talk about his Wisp, which might also be a good fit.
> Others have their favorites too.  Byron usually pontificates about how you
> should be using a bootloader instead of a programmer in the first place.

Olin,

Thanks for pontificating for me. However I didn't do it here because the
16F628A isn't self programmable. So you'd have to switch to either the 16F819
(with the same memory capacity) or the 16F88 (with double the capacity)
to do the job.

Isao didn't specify the application. I think we probably need to come back to
why are we still working with 16F parts anyway when the 18F family (all of
which are bootloadable ;-) are generally better overall performers.

BAJ
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2004\10\11@125800 by Carey Fisher - NCS

face picon face
Byron,
I'm in Duluth.  What stores do you consider "good parts stores"?
Have you been to the new Fry's store near Gwinnett Place Mall?
Carey Fisher

  > {Original Message removed}

2004\10\11@131830 by Byron A Jeff

face picon face
On Mon, Oct 11, 2004 at 12:58:06PM -0400, Carey Fisher - NCS wrote:
> Byron,
> I'm in Duluth.  What stores do you consider "good parts stores"?

You mean Duluth, Georgia, USA? ;-)

> Have you been to the new Fry's store near Gwinnett Place Mall?

Once. I wasn't parts shopping though I saw that they had an aisle of
miscellaneous parts.

Austin Electronics off of Jimmy Carter is pretty good. ACK Radio downtown
has a decent selection though the prices are a bit high.

The Fry's hasn't gotten a grade yet. And they won't until I need something
late on a weekend when everything else is closed.

The Radio Shacks pretty much suck now. But if you need a connector
or an LED mid afternoon on a Sunday, they can still help in a pinch.

Just some thoughts.

BAJ
> Carey Fisher
>
>    > {Original Message removed}

2004\10\11@131831 by piclist

flavicon
face
On Mon, 11 Oct 2004, Byron A Jeff wrote:

> the 18F family (all of which are bootloadable)

There are 18F parts which are not self-programmable.  The 18Fx490
series, for example.

--
John W. Temples, III
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2004\10\11@143346 by Byron A Jeff

face picon face
On Mon, Oct 11, 2004 at 10:18:29AM -0700, .....piclistKILLspamspam@spam@xargs.com wrote:
> On Mon, 11 Oct 2004, Byron A Jeff wrote:
>
> > the 18F family (all of which are bootloadable)
>
> There are 18F parts which are not self-programmable.  The 18Fx490
> series, for example.

Really!? Yet another abstraction shot down. Sigh...

BAJ
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2004\10\11@145811 by olin_piclist

face picon face
Byron A Jeff wrote:
> Isao didn't specify the application. I think we probably need to come
> back to why are we still working with 16F parts anyway when the 18F
> family (all of which are bootloadable ;-) are generally better
> overall performers.

The other families are far from dead.  In high volume applications the lower
price is very important, and the 16, 12, and 10 families come in smaller
packages that the 18 and 30 parts don't fit in.  Even for a hobby project,
the 16F628 may be preferred because it has a comparator whereas the 18F1320
does not.  And then there's the coolness factor of showing off your 10F206
project and pointing out the smallest chip on the board as being the
computer.


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2004\10\11@152938 by Carey Fisher - NCS

face picon face


  > -----Original Message-----
  > From: piclist-bouncesspamKILLspammit.edu [.....piclist-bouncesKILLspamspam.....mit.edu]On Behalf
  > Of Byron A Jeff
  > Sent: Monday, October 11, 2004 1:18 PM
  > To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
  > Subject: Re: [PIC] Programm pic16f628a
  >
  >
  > On Mon, Oct 11, 2004 at 12:58:06PM -0400, Carey Fisher - NCS wrote:
  > > Byron,
  > > I'm in Duluth.  What stores do you consider "good parts stores"?
  >
  > You mean Duluth, Georgia, USA? ;-)
  >

Yes (to distinguish it from Duluth, Republic of Georgia) - but it's
pronounced DOOluth.

  > Once. I wasn't parts shopping though I saw that they had an aisle of
  > miscellaneous parts.

They have a pretty good supply of SMT parts - Rs, Cs, some ICs.  Lots of
assembly and test supplies and equipment.  SMT protoboards - even for
BGAs!!!  Prices aren't great except the stuff on sale is priced very well.

  > Austin Electronics off of Jimmy Carter is pretty good. ACK
  > Radio downtown
  > has a decent selection though the prices are a bit high.

Haven't been to Austin in a while and haven't even thought about ACK since
college (30 yrs ago!)  They still there?


  > The Fry's hasn't gotten a grade yet. And they won't until I
  > need something
  > late on a weekend when everything else is closed.

I came out of Fry's with my mouth hanging open - my wife thought I was nuts.
You need a good couple hours to see everything they've got.


  > The Radio Shacks pretty much suck now. But if you need a connector
  > or an LED mid afternoon on a Sunday, they can still help in a pinch.

I won't buy at Radio Shack on pain of death!

Carey



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2004\10\11@234527 by 859-1?Q?Jaakko_Hyv=E4tti?=

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On Mon, 11 Oct 2004, John J. McDonough wrote:
> In the first two, the PC pins directly manipulate the pins of the PIC to be
> programmed, after some amount of level conversion.  These designs are very
> simple, cheap, and there are hundreds of them out there.  The parts required

 And of these cheap, fast to build, serial port designs, I would mention
the JDM (Jens Madsen) device: http://www.jdm.homepage.dk/newpic.htm which
needs a real serial port but no power supply. I would also recommend
driving it with my picprog:  http://www.iki.fi/hyvatti/pic/picprog.html ..
that supports all 16f and 18f devices, 14-bit 12f devices, and most 16c
and 18c devices.  On Linux, FreeBSD and Windows.  I was working on
dspic30f support but .. maybe next summer.

Regards,
Jaakko

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Pursimiehenkatu 29-31 B, FIN-00150 Helsinki, Finland     http://www.foreca.com
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2004\10\12@073233 by John J. McDonough

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face
----- Original Message ----- From: "Jaakko Hyvätti" <jaakkospamspam_OUThyvatti.iki.fi>
Subject: Re: [PIC] Programm pic16f628a


> needs a real serial port but no power supply. I would also recommend

For those thinking of a simple programmer, you should know that for those
folks lucky enough to have an actual serial port, it is relatively rare
these days to get more than a couple of volts swing from the thing.  This
isn't enough to program a PIC without an external supply.

There was once a day when RS-232 meant +/- 15 volts.  These days you are
lucky to see 9 volts, and less than one volt plus/minus is very common.

There is another issue with the simple serial port programmers that I didn't
mention earlier.  Most of the software expects the serial port to be at one
of the addresses reserved for the serial port.  However, if you add a plug
and pray PCI serial port card to your PC, Windoze will typically assign it a
very high address, unreachable by most of the programming software.  So far,
I haven't seen a serial port on the motherboard with this issue.  Some
laptops (e.g. IBM Thinkpads) allow you to assign the COM port to the wrong
address (i.e. assign COM1 to COM2's address), but I haven't seen any that
allow a serial port to be assigned to an address other than the serial port
addresses.

Typically, the more complicated programmers that have another processor on
the programmer will use Windows APIs to address the serial port, so the
address of the port  isn't an issue.

--McD


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2004\10\12@080209 by Byron A Jeff

face picon face
On Mon, Oct 11, 2004 at 02:58:05PM -0400, Olin Lathrop wrote:
> Byron A Jeff wrote:
> > Isao didn't specify the application. I think we probably need to come
> > back to why are we still working with 16F parts anyway when the 18F
> > family (all of which are bootloadable ;-) are generally better
> > overall performers.
>
> The other families are far from dead.  In high volume applications the lower
> price is very important, and the 16, 12, and 10 families come in smaller
> packages that the 18 and 30 parts don't fit in.  Even for a hobby project,
> the 16F628 may be preferred because it has a comparator whereas the 18F1320
> does not.  And then there's the coolness factor of showing off your 10F206
> project and pointing out the smallest chip on the board as being the
> computer.

Olin,

Glad to see you're back. You are well versed enough in BAJspeak to know that
I was aksing the question from a hobby perspective.

It does beg a question from the pro side of the fence though: How do you choose
the right part for a particular job? Do you start with the smallest/cheapest
part then iterate as needed for more features? Or is it better to prototype
with more than you need, then pick the chip that fits the final software? Or
is cost the ultimate arbiter?

>From a hobby perspective there's rarely a valid comparison between the 16F628A
and the 16F88. The latter has both comparators and ADC, nanowatt, double the
program memory and 50% more RAM. And the 30 cent cost difference in singles
is negligable.

And as cool as the 10F family is, it's tough for a novice (or even intermediate)
hobbyist to prototype with them, despite the coolness factor.

I keep reading on the list that the higher potential speeds, banking
simplification, and rich feature set makes the 18F family a better overall
bet for the hobbyist. I'm just wondering if that is in fact true.

BAJ
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2004\10\12@093140 by Byron A Jeff

face picon face
On Tue, Oct 12, 2004 at 07:32:25AM -0400, John J. McDonough wrote:
{Quote hidden}

All of the above are reasons that I've stuck to parallel port programming
hardware. Of course they are disappearing more rapidly than the Amazon rain
forest.

I'm just frustrated that it's going to take upwards of $25 USD per board
to get a simple USB interface. There are many more USB to serial cables
then there are USB to parallel port cables.

Just poking around Ebay I found this:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=3709&item=6713765888&rd=1

Seems interesting and even though it's $50 USD it may serve as a bridge
for those of us who are not yet willing to give up on parallel or serial.

BAJ
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2004\10\12@094623 by Dave VanHorn

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>
>I'm just frustrated that it's going to take upwards of $25 USD per board
>to get a simple USB interface. There are many more USB to serial cables
>then there are USB to parallel port cables.
>
>Just poking around Ebay I found this:
>
>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=3709&item=6713765888&rd=1
>
>Seems interesting and even though it's $50 USD it may serve as a bridge
>for those of us who are not yet willing to give up on parallel or serial.

Usually, on these devices, it's impossible to twiddle the parallel port bits.
They should be called printer ports, rather than parallel.
If that's true of this device, then you're left with a single serial, and a
hub.

Look under "edgeport", this is what I use. They make 1/2/4/8 port models,
but I don't see much point in the 1 or 2 port versions.  8 serial ports can
usually be had on ebay for <$100.
They have nice features WRT keeping windows from "helping" you too much,
and are well behaved.


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2004\10\12@104330 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>I'm just frustrated that it's going to take
>upwards of $25 USD per board to get a simple
>USB interface. There are many more USB to serial
>cables then there are USB to parallel port cables.

is it really going to cost that much to use an FTDI FT245 chip and
associated components?

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2004\10\12@112115 by Byron A Jeff

face picon face
On Tue, Oct 12, 2004 at 03:45:30PM +0100, Alan B. Pearce wrote:
> >I'm just frustrated that it's going to take
> >upwards of $25 USD per board to get a simple
> >USB interface. There are many more USB to serial
> >cables then there are USB to parallel port cables.
>
> is it really going to cost that much to use an FTDI FT245 chip and
> associated components?

Point me to a kit, cable, or equivalent that cost less. I really want
a cable that's USB on one side, DB25 on the other, and that I can treat
like a SPP parallel port in terms of setting and reading the bits.

I find that every one of the useful type of boards, with the DIP headers on
the edges, have run into the $35 USD range. That may be fine
for prototyping, but way too much to have to embed into multiple
projects.

Parallel and serial are cheap and simple. Real cheap and simple. USB isn't
cheap or simple. It doesn't help me as a developer.

How many of you have PCs with no parallel port at this point? Considering
that parallel port printers are dead as a species, how much longer will it
be before the port disappears altogether?

BAJ
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2004\10\12@115424 by Bob Blick

face picon face
> Parallel and serial are cheap and simple. Real cheap and simple. USB isn't
> cheap or simple. It doesn't help me as a developer.

Sing it, brother! I'm with you.

> How many of you have PCs with no parallel port at this point? Considering
> that parallel port printers are dead as a species, how much longer will it
> be before the port disappears altogether?

Pretty much only the most expensive laptops have serial and parallel ports
now. Mine has neither. Most desktops still do (although no floppy disk).

Cheerful regards,

Bob


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2004\10\12@121132 by Mike Hord

picon face
> Pretty much only the most expensive laptops have serial and parallel ports
> now. Mine has neither. Most desktops still do (although no floppy disk).

My new laptop is among the top of the line that Dell offers.  It has 4
USB 2.0 ports,
1 USB 1.1 port (???), 1 IEEE.1394 port, 1 PCMCIA slot, built-in modem
and ethernet,
built-in IrDA, VGA/DVI, and S-Video.

What's missing?  Serial, parallel, and PS/2.  Floppy drive, too.
Sigh.  Oh well.  I
guess it's FTDI chips for me from now on.  

Mike H.

> Cheerful regards,
>
> Bob
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2004\10\12@124417 by John J. McDonough

flavicon
face
----- Original Message -----
From: "Byron A Jeff" <KILLspambyronKILLspamspamcc.gatech.edu>
Subject: Re: [PIC] Programm pic16f628a


> I find that every one of the useful type of boards, with the DIP headers
on
> the edges, have run into the $35 USD range. That may be fine
> for prototyping, but way too much to have to embed into multiple
> projects.

When we did the PIC-EL, we considered USB since so many folks have USB
ports.  The USB interface would have cost more than the entire board.  A
year ago just the USB chip was a pricey item.

--McD


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2004\10\12@125310 by Dave VanHorn

flavicon
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>
>When we did the PIC-EL, we considered USB since so many folks have USB
>ports.  The USB interface would have cost more than the entire board.  A
>year ago just the USB chip was a pricey item.

One technique I've seen used, is to use the serial out data as a clock,
sending either 0x00 or 0xff, with the handshake line as the data.  This
lets you work with clocked serial latches, and from there, you're
bit-fiddlin again.

This would work with any serial port, USB or otherwise, AFAIK.

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2004\10\12@131223 by John J. McDonough

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave VanHorn" <RemoveMEdvanhornTakeThisOuTspamdvanhorn.org>
Subject: Re: [PIC] Programm pic16f628a


> One technique I've seen used, is to use the serial out data as a clock,
> sending either 0x00 or 0xff, with the handshake line as the data.  This
> lets you work with clocked serial latches, and from there, you're
> bit-fiddlin again.

Most seem to use serial out for MCLR.  But with 8/N/1 your technique should
work if you send 0x0f.  Well, depending on the speed I suppose the PIC
doesn't much care what the duty cycle is. You could get five times the speed
if you sent a5's.

--McF




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2004\10\12@133645 by Byron A Jeff

face picon face
On Tue, Oct 12, 2004 at 01:12:37PM -0400, John J. McDonough wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dave VanHorn" <spamBeGonedvanhornspamBeGonespamdvanhorn.org>
> Subject: Re: [PIC] Programm pic16f628a
>
>
> > One technique I've seen used, is to use the serial out data as a clock,
> > sending either 0x00 or 0xff, with the handshake line as the data.  This
> > lets you work with clocked serial latches, and from there, you're
> > bit-fiddlin again.
>
> Most seem to use serial out for MCLR.  But with 8/N/1 your technique should
> work if you send 0x0f.  Well, depending on the speed I suppose the PIC
> doesn't much care what the duty cycle is. You could get five times the speed
> if you sent a5's.

There's no way to sync the data in that situation. If you had some intelligent
way of detecting bit length you could pack two or three bits per character
transmitted.

But this is a situation that probably best works by bootstrapping. The
best serial interface is a PIC USART. But the catch 22 is programming the PIC.

So a trivial serial programmer coupled with a subsequently programmed part
would be the ticket. Kind of like the WISP628 but more generic.

Silly question: Can you bit fiddle the handshake lines on a USB to serial
cable?

I ebayed real quick and saw that the cost of USB to RS-232 cables are around
$12. I could almost live with that if I were sure that the handshake lines
were twiddlable.

BAJ
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2004\10\12@135325 by Dave VanHorn

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>
>Silly question: Can you bit fiddle the handshake lines on a USB to serial
>cable?

You'd have to be able to, otherwise flow control wouldn't work.

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2004\10\12@135702 by Peter L. Peres

picon face

On Tue, 12 Oct 2004, Bob Blick wrote:

>> Parallel and serial are cheap and simple. Real cheap and simple. USB isn't
>> cheap or simple. It doesn't help me as a developer.
>
> Sing it, brother! I'm with you.
>
>> How many of you have PCs with no parallel port at this point? Considering
>> that parallel port printers are dead as a species, how much longer will it
>> be before the port disappears altogether?
>
> Pretty much only the most expensive laptops have serial and parallel ports
> now. Mine has neither. Most desktops still do (although no floppy disk).

Once upon a time I came up with the dangerous idea to hijack one of the
DDRAM or SDRAM SIMMs that are often not used on the motherboard, to use it
as a wideband single-port 32 bit channel (io) and/or it's I2C
identification channel for external control. This requires intimate OS and
chipset cooperation and is do-able on linux and free os-es but not really
in XP probably (at least not until someone with inside knowledge writes a
driver). While an I2C channel is not exactly my idea of high speed io it
is much better than $25 of USB hardware to control 5 relays and 3
thermostats or 3 stepper motors and their end switches.

The high speed part could be mapped by the bios as normal ram if it could
be made to pass the ram test somehow. For example by leaving the real ram
on it and gating the ras/cas/we lines with a timer so the ram is no longer
there after it passes the test. This would cause a memory hole to appear
in the address space if the dimm is mapped in the 'middle' of something,
so it would have to be mapped as the 'last'dimm (highest in the address
space).

F.ex. on linux the os can be told on boot how much (or little) ram to use
and that's that. Then a kernel mode driver can access the 'ram' in the
hole (assuming the 'hole' is placed at the top of the address space),
which will be a simple 32 bit (or narrower) io register, controlled by cas
and we only. The high speed digital scope project looks better now ;-).
There are also combinations that can be tried, like using the ram on the
dimm for data storage as a ping-pong buffer (requires multiplexing the
address bus and clever switching - probably cannot be done easily).

Also, if this would catch on as an idea maybe someone would start making
an asic that appears to be dimm but has a connector on the other edge with
parallel high speed buffered io. PCI 'universal' cards already exist and
may be easier to implement than USB for certain applications (but again
it's about price). The asic would be just more silicon you need to pay
for.

Otherwise, I have thought of subliminal signalling ;-). The
cpu/motherboard are so 'closed' nowadays that you need spook technology to
talk to the outside world. Think of modulating the power consumption over
time by running a specific sequence of algorythms and sensing this in the
mains input cable ! (yes it works, but for slow data rate). Or running
specific code that modulates the RFI pattern radiated by the machine and a
a modern 'tempest' receiver recovering the modulation using direct
sequence spread spectrum demodulation probably.

More seriously <vbg>, there are usually unused fan connectors on the
motherboard. These represent a one bit input and output. The input goes to
the rpm meter and can be read by bios functions (and in the os with
suitable drivers), and the output can be controlled via bios (and os with
suitable drivers). The rpm readout function can even be analog, with
alarm!

Other ideas include taking a plain off the shelf USB mouse and hacking it
to provide input channels, hacking a digital USB camera to provide the
high sample rate analog input needed for a pc-based scope (assuming it is
not of the one-chip type), and using a video capture card and an extra
video card to build a pair of high speed io channels (I have tried this).
All of these compete favorably with the $25 price tag of entry level
one-off USB-ing imho.

The sound card 'instruments' are limited by sound system bandwidth but
should not be discarded offhand. I have experience using this channel
using dtmf, speech, and simple tone signalling (on/off). Often the only
external hardware needed was a 555.

I have some experience with most of the ideas enumerated above, so ask, a
discussion would be worthwhile imho. Trying to break out of the
USB/ethernet jail is a worthwhile experiment imho.

Comments ?

Peter
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2004\10\12@135829 by Herbert Graf

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face
On Tue, 2004-10-12 at 12:11, Mike Hord wrote:
> > Pretty much only the most expensive laptops have serial and parallel ports
> > now. Mine has neither. Most desktops still do (although no floppy disk).
>
> My new laptop is among the top of the line that Dell offers.  It has 4
> USB 2.0 ports,
> 1 USB 1.1 port (???), 1 IEEE.1394 port, 1 PCMCIA slot, built-in modem
> and ethernet,
> built-in IrDA, VGA/DVI, and S-Video.
>
> What's missing?  Serial, parallel, and PS/2.  Floppy drive, too.
> Sigh.  Oh well.  I
> guess it's FTDI chips for me from now on.  

Hehe, wow, I got what I consider a "mid range" laptop, the Dell 600m,
and it's got both a serial and parallel port. Go figure. Oh, and no, the
serial port wasn't a deciding factor in the choice of that particular
model for me, but it sure was a nice bonus! TTYL

-----------------------------
Herbert's PIC Stuff:
http://repatch.dyndns.org:8383/pic_stuff/

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2004\10\12@141139 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> Point me to a kit, cable, or equivalent that cost less. I really want
> a cable that's USB on one side, DB25 on the other, and that I
> can treat
> like a SPP parallel port in terms of setting and reading the bits.

http://www.voti.nl/shop/catalog.html

$19 in q 1, excl. S/H. But note that it has a centronics connector, not
DB25, and I dunno about SSP.

Wouter van Ooijen

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2004\10\12@141139 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> >I'm just frustrated that it's going to take
> >upwards of $25 USD per board to get a simple
> >USB interface. There are many more USB to serial
> >cables then there are USB to parallel port cables.
>
> is it really going to cost that much to use an FTDI FT245 chip and
> associated components?

Of course not. I sell USB/serial and USB parallel converters (complete
cables, not just the chips) for less in q 1. And I make a profit, so you
can buy them for less if you buy in sufficient quantity.

Wouter van Ooijen

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2004\10\12@142218 by Andrew Warren

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Byron A Jeff <TakeThisOuTpiclistEraseMEspamspam_OUTmit.edu> wrote:

> Silly question: Can you bit fiddle the handshake lines on a USB to
> serial cable?

   It varies.  You can do a little on some cables, a lot on others, and
   none on most.

   -Andy

=== Andrew Warren - RemoveMEaiwspamTakeThisOuTcypress.com
===
=== Principal Design Engineer
=== Cypress Semiconductor Corporation


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2004\10\12@142410 by Spehro Pefhany

picon face
At 11:21 AM 10/12/2004 -0400, you wrote:
>On Tue, Oct 12, 2004 at 03:45:30PM +0100, Alan B. Pearce wrote:
> > >I'm just frustrated that it's going to take
> > >upwards of $25 USD per board to get a simple
> > >USB interface. There are many more USB to serial
> > >cables then there are USB to parallel port cables.
> >
> > is it really going to cost that much to use an FTDI FT245 chip and
> > associated components?
>
>Point me to a kit, cable, or equivalent that cost less. I really want
>a cable that's USB on one side, DB25 on the other, and that I can treat
>like a SPP parallel port in terms of setting and reading the bits.

If you look, you can buy USB->DB9 serial converter cables for $12-$15 retail
in the US, probably even cheaper in some other places. USB to parallel is
a bit more. I don't know how closely they mimic the individual pin behavior
in a real parallel port in the latter case.

Best regards,

Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the reward"
speffEraseMEspam.....interlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com




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2004\10\12@144906 by Byron A Jeff

face picon face
On Tue, Oct 12, 2004 at 08:10:07PM +0200, Wouter van Ooijen wrote:
> > >I'm just frustrated that it's going to take
> > >upwards of $25 USD per board to get a simple
> > >USB interface. There are many more USB to serial
> > >cables then there are USB to parallel port cables.
> >
> > is it really going to cost that much to use an FTDI FT245 chip and
> > associated components?
>
> Of course not. I sell USB/serial and USB parallel converters (complete
> cables, not just the chips) for less in q 1. And I make a profit, so you
> can buy them for less if you buy in sufficient quantity.

Wouter,

I poked around a bit and I think my original point is still valid. The kit
and cable offerings you have on your site are between $17-23 USD without
shipping. It'll still be in the $25 USD ballpark for a complete solution.

I'm just irratated that I'm forced to pay more to upconvert to a technology
that's less stable and less well known. And while I do appreciate FTDI
for their contributions, there is no plug an play solution to getting to
bits from USB like there was with the parallel or serial port. It requires
more drivers, chipset differences, and the like. It's a crapshoot. And it
cost more.

What I'm aksing for is the $5 USD equivalent of the MAX232. Complete control,
no additional drivers, and inexpensive enough that I won't choke every time
I purchase one.

It's not there yet.

BAJ
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2004\10\12@145804 by John J. McDonough

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face
----- Original Message -----
From: "Byron A Jeff" <EraseMEbyronspamcc.gatech.edu>
Subject: Re: [PIC] Programm pic16f628a


> Silly question: Can you bit fiddle the handshake lines on a USB to serial
> cable?

It seems like you can muck with RTS/CTS/DTR on most.  The problem with PIC
programmers is that they need 3 lines out and one in, so they tend to use TD
as an output, and the USB/Serial converter knows that bytes gotta come down
that line, with start and stop bits.

--McD


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2004\10\12@154416 by Byron A Jeff

face picon face
On Tue, Oct 12, 2004 at 02:57:54PM -0400, John J. McDonough wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Byron A Jeff" <RemoveMEbyronEraseMEspamEraseMEcc.gatech.edu>
> Subject: Re: [PIC] Programm pic16f628a
>
>
> > Silly question: Can you bit fiddle the handshake lines on a USB to serial
> > cable?
>
> It seems like you can muck with RTS/CTS/DTR on most.  The problem with PIC
> programmers is that they need 3 lines out and one in, so they tend to use TD
> as an output, and the USB/Serial converter knows that bytes gotta come down
> that line, with start and stop bits.

Well that's not a problem, just use TD as a clock by sending either 0xff or
0x00 bytes down the pipe. Also can't you get like a megabit transmission
rate over these USB cables? That's another advantage.

If the bit twiddling and the TD transmission can be synced, then it's
enough to do something useful.

BAJ
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2004\10\12@160120 by Dave VanHorn

flavicon
face

> > that line, with start and stop bits.
>
>Well that's not a problem, just use TD as a clock by sending either 0xff or
>0x00 bytes down the pipe. Also can't you get like a megabit transmission
>rate over these USB cables? That's another advantage.
>
>If the bit twiddling and the TD transmission can be synced, then it's
>enough to do something useful.

Some can do pretty high rates on the serial line, but many are restricted
to about 115200.
The USB channel can burst more, but of course you can't shove it out any
faster than the uart in the FTDI (or whatever) can take it.

The first time I used this approach was back on a Verifone Tranz-330
terminal, that I needed to have control some relays.  They have a serial
printer port, and a couple of handshake lines.

It's an eminently hackable device, and I'm surprised that they aren't
showing up in nuts and volts sorts of projects. VFI has the programming
manual on their web site.

B1.1    ;Select Buffer 1 as src and dest
G       ;clear it
M       ;Read the Magstripe
N       ;priNt it
L       ;Link back and do it again.

You can change the program directly from the keyboard, which has other
interesting possibilities as well, and the code can modify itself..

I used to spend my days debugging stuff that went on for pages like this:

295=B4.4GA950.15I14.1.48F73*N#G*L662*L880GN1GA358*L651R32N1GL296B2.4GR'BATCH
#'O13X2VG
296=*N#2.40GR49U399GA351B2.4O13X2B4.4*L651R32N1WGL297
297=GA314*L650B4.4GA950I3.1.51GZ40.45.2I2GZ26.45*L650G
298=B1.1GR49*B3G*E1*F1*MGF70.1*G1V.2.3*K



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2004\10\12@160536 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> I poked around a bit and I think my original point is still
> valid. The kit
> and cable offerings you have on your site are between $17-23
> USD without
> shipping. It'll still be in the $25 USD ballpark for a
> complete solution.

If you want a q 1 buy that's correct. If you need more you would end up
shopping where I buy them, so the price would be quite a bit lower. And
I assume the same type of suppliers exist elsewehere (mine is local), so
S/H would be reduced too.

> And while I do appreciate FTDI
> for their contributions, there is no plug an play solution to
> getting to
> bits from USB like there was with the parallel or serial
> port. It requires
> more drivers, chipset differences, and the like.

IIRC the PP driver for the FTDI and other USB-P converters is build into
XP, same is said to be the case for serial drivers in the latest XP.

> What I'm aksing for is the $5 USD equivalent of the MAX232.
> Complete control,
> no additional drivers, and inexpensive enough that I won't
> choke every time
> I purchase one.

I'm afraid you'll have to invest in an USB-to-RS232 first (and then use
a WBus approach to share that precious RS232 port with all your
peripherals :) ), or better yet: USB-to-RS485. Or dive into the 16C675.
Or get one of the yet-to-appear 18F's with USB. Or maybe IRDA? Or
sublimal communication using the LCD screen? Or use the audio channel?

Wouter van Ooijen

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2004\10\12@161425 by Dave VanHorn

flavicon
face

>
>I'm afraid you'll have to invest in an USB-to-RS232 first (and then use
>a WBus approach to share that precious RS232 port with all your
>peripherals :) ), or better yet: USB-to-RS485. Or dive into the 16C675.
>Or get one of the yet-to-appear 18F's with USB. Or maybe IRDA? Or
>sublimal communication using the LCD screen? Or use the audio channel?

One other often overlooked option with serial, is to connect multiple
devices in a ring topology. Easily done with stereo phone plugs and
jacks.  You packetize the data, and each device simply passes along any
data that isn't addressed to it.  If you see a packet you sent, then you
know it didn't get seen and eaten by the recipient.


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2004\10\12@170351 by Byron A Jeff

face picon face
On Tue, Oct 12, 2004 at 10:03:47PM +0200, Wouter van Ooijen wrote:
{Quote hidden}

XP? What's this XP that you refer to? ;-)

{Quote hidden}

Or do what I have been doing: run the parallel and serial ports that still
exist into the ground.

BAJ
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2004\10\12@200819 by John J. McDonough

flavicon
face
----- Original Message -----
From: "Byron A Jeff" <RemoveMEbyronspam_OUTspamKILLspamcc.gatech.edu>
Subject: Re: [PIC] Programm pic16f628a


> XP? What's this XP that you refer to? ;-)

eXtreme Programming - it's a cult thing

--McD


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2004\10\12@234001 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
On Oct 12, 2004, at 10:56 AM, Peter L. Peres wrote:

>
>>> Parallel and serial are cheap and simple. Real cheap and simple. USB
>>> isn't
>>> cheap or simple. It doesn't help me as a developer.
>>>
Do the laptops lacking serial ports still have IRDA?  I still like the
idea of having an IRDA programmer :-)  It does need that protocol for
transporting signal changes over bytestreams, though...

BillW

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2004\10\13@001503 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face

On Oct 12, 2004, at 11:49 AM, Byron A Jeff wrote:

> I'm just irratated that I'm forced to pay more to upconvert
> to a technology that's less stable and less well known.

I don't know about that 'less stable.'  Serial and Parallel ports
are easily abused, and standard are so seldom adhered to that
things frequently don't work.  I remember the first 115kbps modem
I bought came packaged with a (FIFO-enabled) serial card; apparently
the manufacturer was spending so much money on customer service calls
related to old uarts losing data at high speeds that it was cheaper
and easier for them to throw in a 'known' serial card...

> What I'm aksing for is the $5 USD equivalent of the MAX232.
> Complete control, no additional drivers, and inexpensive enough
> that I won't choke every time I purchase one.   It's not there yet.
>

It's close.  I don't know whether that 'no additional drivers' is
fair; most of the stuff we use serial/parallel ports for essentially
includes its own drivers, and WXP's disallowance of that causes users
to go off and search for mysterious driver-enablers...

Microchip, cypress, TI, and some others all have fully-programmable
chips in that $5 price range.  None are flash, and few are in packages
easily usable by hobbyists.  (that's the big problem with FTDI too;
you practically require a professionally made PCB, and that raises
the price a great deal...), and there's no standardization on what
they should do or how to do it...

BillW

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2004\10\13@040711 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>How many of you have PCs with no parallel port at
>this point? Considering that parallel port printers
>are dead as a species, how much longer will it
>be before the port disappears altogether?

Many laptops are now like this. I have a Dell 8600c that has no legacy ports
at all. The only "legacy style" connector on it is the second video
connector. Only other way in is USB or firewire, unless one attaches a port
expansion box which does have legacy ports.

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2004\10\13@043516 by Jan-Erik Soderholm

face picon face
Byron A Jeff wrote :

> Wouter wrote :
> > IIRC the PP driver for the FTDI and other USB-P converters
> > is build into
> > XP, same is said to be the case for serial drivers in the latest XP.

> XP? What's this XP that you refer to? ;-)


Must be Windows XP...

Jan-Erik.
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2004\10\13@071727 by Byron A Jeff

face picon face
On Wed, Oct 13, 2004 at 10:35:15AM +0200, Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:
> Byron A Jeff wrote :
>
> > Wouter wrote :
> > > IIRC the PP driver for the FTDI and other USB-P converters
> > > is build into
> > > XP, same is said to be the case for serial drivers in the latest XP.
>
> > XP? What's this XP that you refer to? ;-)
>
>
> Must be Windows XP...

Jan-Erik,

You missed the smiley at the end of the statement. I was just poking a
bit of fun at the unfortunate ubiquitousness of Windows XP. As a longtime
Linux user, XP rarely crosses my path in any meaningful way.

BAJ
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2004\10\13@074043 by Jan-Erik Soderholm

face picon face
Byron A Jeff wrote :

> > > XP? What's this XP that you refer to? ;-)
> >
> >
> > Must be Windows XP...
>
> Jan-Erik,
>
> You missed the smiley at the end of the statement...

Oh yes, I did.
Sorry about that, have to wait until after my morning coffee
next time... :-)

/Jan-Erik.
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2004\10\13@082040 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> As a longtime
> Linux user, XP rarely crosses my path in any meaningful way.

XP crosses me a lot, but to say that it is always meaningfull :(

But IIRC the latest Linuxes also have FTDI-compatible drivers?

Wouter van Ooijen

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Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
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2004\10\13@101801 by Paul Hutchinson

picon face
>-----Original Message-----
>From: RemoveMEpiclist-bouncesTakeThisOuTspamspammit.edu [EraseMEpiclist-bouncesspamspamspamBeGonemit.edu]On Behalf
>Of William Chops Westfield
>Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2004 11:40 PM
>To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
>Subject: Re: [PIC] Programm pic16f628a
>
>Do the laptops lacking serial ports still have IRDA?  I still like the
>idea of having an IRDA programmer :-)  It does need that protocol for
>transporting signal changes over bytestreams, though...
>
>BillW

The project I'm currently working on uses a Z8Encore chip that has built-in
IRDA capabilities on one of its UARTs. So, earlier this year I checked with
our IT guys to see if laptops still had IRDA ports before adding an IR
emitter/detector to the circuit. There was no IRDA in any of the laptops
they had bought in the past year or two, although some had serial and
parallel ports. I also checked laptop manufacturer web sites and I didn't
find many that had IRDA as standard equipment.

So, it looks to me like IRDA is going away just like the legacy ports.

Paul

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2004\10\13@110311 by Alan B. Pearce

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>So, it looks to me like IRDA is going
>away just like the legacy ports.

For a lot of things for which it was designed, such as PC-cellphone or
laptop, I suspect that Bluetooth or Wifi has overtaken it, as they are
faster, and work over larger distances, and less orientation critical.
Laptops tend to have BT and Wifi built in, or available as an option.

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2004\10\13@110851 by Dave VanHorn

flavicon
face

>
>So, it looks to me like IRDA is going away just like the legacy ports.

Having dealt with IRDA in my printer design over the last couple years, I
can tell you from an engineering perspective, IRDA SUCKS.

End users don't "get" optical considerations, the 30 degree beamwidth is
invisible, and it's damned slow.  Bluetooth is eating it's lunch.


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2004\10\13@120602 by Byron A Jeff

face picon face
On Wed, Oct 13, 2004 at 02:18:36PM +0200, Wouter van Ooijen wrote:
> > As a longtime
> > Linux user, XP rarely crosses my path in any meaningful way.
>
> XP crosses me a lot, but to say that it is always meaningfull :(
>
> But IIRC the latest Linuxes also have FTDI-compatible drivers?

They do. They also have the prolific drivers. But the serial, parallel,
and direct I/O port interfaces for serial and parallel are well known
and always loaded.

I'm just trying to navigate the minefield.

BAJ
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2004\10\13@155952 by Peter L. Peres

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On Tue, 12 Oct 2004, William Chops Westfield wrote:

> On Oct 12, 2004, at 10:56 AM, Peter L. Peres wrote:
>
>>
>>>> Parallel and serial are cheap and simple. Real cheap and simple. USB
>>>> isn't
>>>> cheap or simple. It doesn't help me as a developer.
>>>>
> Do the laptops lacking serial ports still have IRDA?  I still like the
> idea of having an IRDA programmer :-)  It does need that protocol for
> transporting signal changes over bytestreams, though...

Most 'new' laptops from name brands have irda ports (one). Usually those
that have irda also have a serial connector however ... ymmv.

Peter
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