Post by thread:[PIC] Possible PIC App That Might Make Money

I will be busy with pure engineering tasks and won't be able to do much PIC stuff anymore so I wanted to pass onto my PIClist friends some possible ways to make a few bucks through the use of your PIC talents. This is one: Portable PIC Programmer Similar to what Tony Nixon was trying to do with his "Pocket Programmer", there is a market for a truly portable PIC production programmer. The market is not only production but also field service (to make field updates). I believe this market can be as large as $USD 100K the first year, at a cost of $200ea, and become $USD 1M+ within 3 years. It must be able to be loaded from a USB port on a WinXP laptop, data stored in smaller SD card, storing at least 32 files. To be easy to control, it probably would need a 2 x 16 LCD display. Needs to be NiMH powered, with built-in charger which can accept walwart or automotive charging source. Primarily ICSP but a small 40ZIF as an adaptor might make it easier to sell. - - - There are more. --Bob

Bob Axtell wrote: > Portable PIC Programmer > > Similar to what Tony Nixon was trying to do with his > "Pocket Programmer", there is a market for a truly portable > PIC production programmer. The market is not only production > but also field service (to make field updates). I believe this > market can be as large as $USD 100K the first year, at a cost > of $200ea, and become $USD 1M+ within 3 years. I have thought of this too, but I don't see the market anywhere near the size you do. If I remember right, Tony Nixon's pocket programmer was a commercial failure. At $200 each a reasonable profit is possible, but this would have to include a nice plastic case, etc, all which make the up front development costs higher. And even if your market estimates are correct, that isn't going to be achieved by selling on a hole-in-the-wall web site. That means there is significant work envolved in setting up and managing all the resellers. > It must be able to be loaded from a USB port on a WinXP laptop, > data stored in smaller SD card, storing at least 32 files. Or just a flash chip, since the user never removes the memory anyway. They manage whatever the programmer stores via the software and the USB interface. > To be easy > to control, it probably would need a 2 x 16 LCD display. Needs to be > NiMH powered, with built-in charger which can accept walwart or > automotive charging source. Think about the total joules needed for a programming session. I think you can get a lot of programming sessions from a pair of single use AA batteries. If someone wants rechargeable, they can use AA NiMH with a external charger. Keep it simple. I doubt anyone would not buy it because it accepted just AA batteries without a integrated charger. Let's do a quick check. Let's say pessimistically that 500mA would be drawn from a pair of AA batteries during programming. That's a lot, and would only happen if significant target circuit was powered along with the PIC. I'm specifying 100mA Vdd for the USBProg and it isn't percieved as a limitation. Of course that 500mA at 3V would mean significantly less Vdd current, but still a substantial amount. I don't remember what the rating is for modern one-time AA batteries, but probably 3Ah is conservative (you can get NiMH cells close to that already). That means a pair of AA theoretically has 6 hours programming life. Let's further say pessimistically that each programming operation takes 1 minute. That means a pair of AA in theory is good for 360 programming operations. Even if it's only 300, that's a lot. Changing the batteries once every 300 programming operations is unlikely to scare off too many customers, and there is no charger to loose, and no charing circuit to incorporate and pay for and find space for. This is not a good application for NiMH because of their high self-discharge. This programmer is the kind of thing that gets banged around in the bottom of a field service kit and possibly forgotten for months on end until it's needed right there right away. As I said, I've thought about this before too, including a design for it based partly on the USBProg. If you really believe this is a viable product, are you willing to invest in it and then share in the profits later? ******************************************************************** Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products (978) 742-9014. Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

All, The only problem I have with the scenario at the bottom of the page is that I don't believe that 3AH for a double A battery (cell) is accurate. I would think maybe half of that would be a good estimate. But even given this reduction in cell capacity, the longevity is still good. Just my 2 cents worth. Regards, Jim {Quote hidden}> Bob Axtell wrote: >> Portable PIC Programmer >> >> Similar to what Tony Nixon was trying to do with his >> "Pocket Programmer", there is a market for a truly portable >> PIC production programmer. The market is not only production >> but also field service (to make field updates). I believe this >> market can be as large as $USD 100K the first year, at a cost >> of $200ea, and become $USD 1M+ within 3 years. > > I have thought of this too, but I don't see the market anywhere near > the size you do. If I remember right, Tony Nixon's pocket programmer > was a commercial failure. > > At $200 each a reasonable profit is possible, but this would have to > include a nice plastic case, etc, all which make the up front > development costs higher. And even if your market estimates are > correct, that isn't going to be achieved by selling on a > hole-in-the-wall web site. That means there is significant work > envolved in setting up and managing all the resellers. > >> It must be able to be loaded from a USB port on a WinXP laptop, >> data stored in smaller SD card, storing at least 32 files. > > Or just a flash chip, since the user never removes the memory anyway. > They manage whatever the programmer stores via the software and the USB > interface. > >> To be easy >> to control, it probably would need a 2 x 16 LCD display. Needs to be >> NiMH powered, with built-in charger which can accept walwart or >> automotive charging source. > > Think about the total joules needed for a programming session. I think > you can get a lot of programming sessions from a pair of single use AA > batteries. If someone wants rechargeable, they can use AA NiMH with a > external charger. Keep it simple. I doubt anyone would not buy it > because it accepted just AA batteries without a integrated charger. > > Let's do a quick check. Let's say pessimistically that 500mA would be > drawn from a pair of AA batteries during programming. That's a lot, > and would only happen if significant target circuit was powered along > with the PIC. I'm specifying 100mA Vdd for the USBProg and it isn't > percieved as a limitation. Of course that 500mA at 3V would mean > significantly less Vdd current, but still a substantial amount. I > don't remember what the rating is for modern one-time AA batteries, but > probably 3Ah is conservative (you can get NiMH cells close to that > already). That means a pair of AA theoretically has 6 hours > programming life. Let's further say > pessimistically that each programming operation takes 1 minute. That > means a pair of AA in theory is good for 360 programming operations. > Even if it's only 300, that's a lot. Changing the batteries once every > 300 programming operations is unlikely to scare off too many customers, > and there is no charger to loose, and no charing circuit to incorporate > and pay for and find space for. > > This is not a good application for NiMH because of their high >self-discharge. This programmer is the kind of thing that gets banged >around in the bottom of a field service kit and possibly forgotten for >months on end until it's needed right there right away. > > As I said, I've thought about this before too, including a design for > it based partly on the USBProg. If you really believe this is a viable > product, are you willing to invest in it and then share in the profits > later? > > > ******************************************************************** > Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products > (978) 742-9014. Gold level PIC consultants since 2000. > --

Redwood Shores, 5 maart 2007. A NiMH AA usually has a capacity of 2000mAh (up to 2900mAh, I believe). A NiCd AA has a capacity of 1000mA, usually. In my experience an alkaline AA battery clearly outlasts either of these (in the order of 5x as long), which makes me think 3000mAh might be a good estimate (because part of the longer duration of an alkaline battery is probably due to the fact that it doesn't leak as much as a rechargeable battery). An important consideration with alkaline batteries is the fact that their capacity changes with the load: the higher the load, the lower their capacity (down to 700mAh at a high load, e.g. 1000mA). So at 500mA they probably won't last nearly as long as described, but at 100mA they would last far longer. Possibly a cleverly placed capacitor could increase the life of an alkaline battery a lot, in this case, as programming only has a limited duration. Greetings, Maarten Hofman.

This product would MAKE an excellent field upgrade. Don't need to send a technician with a laptop or palm just to upgrade the PIC in question. But again the key is HOW to market it.... If one was to price it at USD 200 it would be rather expensive for the techinician toolbox.. John --- William Chops Westfield <westfwKILLspammac.com> wrote: {Quote hidden}> > > It must be able to be loaded from a USB port on a > WinXP laptop, > > data stored in smaller SD card, storing at least > 32 files. > > > Can you dispense with USB connectivity if you can > read FAT from > an SD card? > > I agree that I'd rather have "buy at the local > drugstore" AA > alkalines than "go dead in storage" NiMH cells in > such a device. > Should work from AA Alkalines too, of course. > > I bet the ICD2 clones have enough free pins to add > an SD card > interface; add one of those USB power supplies and > you're done, eh? > (and you can use the USB power supply to recharge > your iPod too.) > > BillW > --

Olin Lathrop wrote: > Bob Axtell wrote: > >> Portable PIC Programmer >> >> Similar to what Tony Nixon was trying to do with his >> "Pocket Programmer", there is a market for a truly portable >> PIC production programmer. The market is not only production >> but also field service (to make field updates). I believe this >> market can be as large as $USD 100K the first year, at a cost >> of $200ea, and become $USD 1M+ within 3 years. >> > > I have thought of this too, but I don't see the market anywhere near the > size you do. If I remember right, Tony Nixon's pocket programmer was a > commercial failure. > Yes, because it came into being before ICSP came into vogue. The field update market has jumped a LONG way past those old days. Everything is smaller, everything needs constant updates nowadays. I think my estimates are low, frankly. Also, it wasn't very rugged. This needs to be VERY rugged, and packaged. > At $200 each a reasonable profit is possible, but this would have to include > a nice plastic case, etc, all which make the up front development costs > higher. And even if your market estimates are correct, that isn't going to > be achieved by selling on a hole-in-the-wall web site. That means there is > significant work envolved in setting up and managing all the resellers. > > I don't think there is so much packaging; there are some great cases that look like multimeters and they can take a 3' drop. >> It must be able to be loaded from a USB port on a WinXP laptop, >> data stored in smaller SD card, storing at least 32 files. >> > > Or just a flash chip, since the user never removes the memory anyway. They > manage whatever the programmer stores via the software and the USB > interface. > > That's OK, would save a lot of money.. {Quote hidden}>> To be easy >> to control, it probably would need a 2 x 16 LCD display. Needs to be >> NiMH powered, with built-in charger which can accept walwart or >> automotive charging source. >> > > Think about the total joules needed for a programming session. I think you > can get a lot of programming sessions from a pair of single use AA > batteries. If someone wants rechargeable, they can use AA NiMH with a > external charger. Keep it simple. I doubt anyone would not buy it because > it accepted just AA batteries without a integrated charger. > > Let's do a quick check. Let's say pessimistically that 500mA would be drawn > from a pair of AA batteries during programming. That's a lot, and would > only happen if significant target circuit was powered along with the PIC. > I'm specifying 100mA Vdd for the USBProg and it isn't percieved as a > limitation. Of course that 500mA at 3V would mean significantly less Vdd > current, but still a substantial amount. I don't remember what the rating > is for modern one-time AA batteries, but probably 3Ah is conservative (you > can get NiMH cells close to that already). That means a pair of AA > theoretically has 6 hours programming life. Let's further say > pessimistically that each programming operation takes 1 minute. That means > a pair of AA in theory is good for 360 programming operations. Even if it's > only 300, that's a lot. Changing the batteries once every 300 programming > operations is unlikely to scare off too many customers, and there is no > charger to loose, and no charing circuit to incorporate and pay for and find > space for. > > This is not a good application for NiMH because of their high > self-discharge. This programmer is the kind of thing that gets banged > around in the bottom of a field service kit and possibly forgotten for > months on end until it's needed right there right away. > > As I said, I've thought about this before too, including a design for it > based partly on the USBProg. If you really believe this is a viable > product, are you willing to invest in it and then share in the profits > later? > > I just might. I think your basic USBProg would be a great basis for it. Probably only ONE NiMH AA would be needed, methinks. --- and Olin, Microchip loves you. They would get behind it if it were in a nice case. Remember whereas we are engineering types, they are marketing types. Ask 'em if there is a market, and see what _they_ say. You will be surprised. --Bob > ******************************************************************** > Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products > (978) 742-9014. Gold level PIC consultants since 2000. >

> A nice plastic case ?? > > Think outside the box.. The ICD2 'box' has support for a > programming lead a > USB lead and a charging / supply lead. Make it work from a > coin cell or two > and buy the boxes from microchip.. A hole in the top for an > LCD and the SD > ram can go in the hole where the Dee connector was... > > Does it need batteries ?? > > Probably not. The USB can provide power to load the unit and > the target > could provide power to program itself just needs a small up > converter for > Vpp. pickit2 already has the 'programming ' button and the on-board flash memory. So when Microchip finally decides to use these components the parket for this proposed programmer goes 'poof'.... Wouter van Ooijen -- ------------------------------------------- Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl consultancy, development, PICmicro products docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu

jamesp@intertex.net wrote: > The only problem I have with the scenario at the bottom of the page is > that I don't believe that 3AH for a double A battery (cell) is > accurate. I would think maybe half of that would be a good estimate. > But even given this reduction in cell capacity, the longevity is still > good. Usually when I've been carefully considering battery capacity it has been rechargeables or other than AA primary cells so I guessed just to fill in some roughly plausible numbers. I knew that NiMH were available in the 2.0-2.5Ah range, so I figured primary cells would be a bit more. I looked around a bit now, and you're right in that normal alkaline AA primary cells seem to be in the 2.5-3.0 Ah range, but derate to about half that under 500mA load. However lithium primary AA batteries are just about 3.0Ah and stay that way under 500mA load. I think it would be a bit extreme to recommend lithium batteries in a portable PIC programmer but they would give you about twice the life in the extreme case of 500mA load on the batteries during programming. I think my estimate was very conservative for the typical case. One minute and 500mA per programming operation is way above average. A real worst case or even typical is hard to specify because there are so many different PICs and target circuits out there. The fact that most of them can be programmed in under 20 seconds with under 250mA battery drain is of no consequence to the field service guy who only ever updates a fully loaded 30F6010 in a circuit that draws a additional 50mA beyond the PIC. All in all, I think a reasonable worst case with two AA alkaline batteries is 180 programming operations, with 500 typical over a broad mix of target systems. Even though it's less than my quick back of the envelope calculation, I think it is well within acceptable range for the end user. ******************************************************************** Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products (978) 742-9014. Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

Bob Axtell wrote: > Probably only ONE NiMH AA would be needed, methinks. That would make the converter difficult because of the low voltage going in. With two primary AA cells you can rely on 2.0V before it's OK to declare the cells dead and give up. With NiMH you should work down to 900mV per cell. Even if you treat them like primary cells, just 1V is difficult to work with and use it efficiently. One cell also gets you half the capacity. It would be a lot easier to tell people they have to replace the batteries every 200-500 programming operations, and I don't see that as a marketing problem. > --- and Olin, Microchip loves you. They would get behind it if it were > in a nice case. > Remember whereas we are engineering types, they are marketing types. Ask > 'em if there > is a market, and see what _they_ say. You will be surprised. I have in the past asked them about what they would want in a programmer and if there was any interest in a USBProg-like device designed externally to their specs. It has never met with any interest. Perhaps it might be different now that someone can actually hold a USBProg in their hands, but I rather doubt it. They have a full time professional tools group that does these things. ******************************************************************** Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products (978) 742-9014. Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

On 3/6/07, Bob Axtell <.....engineerKILLspam.....neomailbox.com> wrote: > > > > > I have thought of this too, but I don't see the market anywhere near the > > size you do. If I remember right, Tony Nixon's pocket programmer was a > > commercial failure. > > > Yes, because it came into being before ICSP came into vogue. The field > update market has jumped > a LONG way past those old days. Everything is smaller, everything needs > constant updates nowadays. > I think my estimates are low, frankly. Also, it wasn't very rugged. This > needs to be VERY rugged, and > packaged. And for that we now have bootloaders which are more convenient and the update can be done by the customer without extra hardware and without a technician. This leaves your programmer to serve low volume projects where the convenience of the bootloader does not justify the development cost to implement it. Frankly, I think it's a neat idea but I carry around a ICD2 with my laptop so I wouldn't buy it. Also I'm developing a bootloader for my application for customer updates. So maybe there's a US$ 100k/year market for these things which works out at a mere 500 units per year and that sounds pretty easy to sell. However I can't see how you would reach that market without spending a significant portion of that revenue in advertising. Google ads might do for 50 units/year, for the remaining 450 what would you do?

I have two clients that would love this.....I keep forgetting to mention it to them. They would like to supply these to distributors so they can do upgrades to the products either before they sell...or after as well. Right now, one is having units sent back to update, the other sends out programmed chips. John Chung <kravnusspam_OUTyahoo.com> wrote: This product would MAKE an excellent field upgrade. Don't need to send a technician with a laptop or palm just to upgrade the PIC in question. But again the key is HOW to market it.... If one was to price it at USD 200 it would be rather expensive for the techinician toolbox.. John --- William Chops Westfield wrote: {Quote hidden}> > > It must be able to be loaded from a USB port on a > WinXP laptop, > > data stored in smaller SD card, storing at least > 32 files. > > > Can you dispense with USB connectivity if you can > read FAT from > an SD card? > > I agree that I'd rather have "buy at the local > drugstore" AA > alkalines than "go dead in storage" NiMH cells in > such a device. > Should work from AA Alkalines too, of course. > > I bet the ICD2 clones have enough free pins to add > an SD card > interface; add one of those USB power supplies and > you're done, eh? > (and you can use the USB power supply to recharge > your iPod too.) > > BillW > --

That's pretty similar to what I was searching for recently, and picked up the Kanda handleld programmer. Difference from what you describe are: (1) Parallel instead of USB port. (2) Only 1 program (hex file) at a time. For (1) adapters can be found, though it doesn't matter to me since I still use an older computer with a parallel port for PIC development. For (2) I poked around and saw that it uses an Atmel EEPROM, which I assume holds the program. I intend (though haven't yet tried) to build a small adapter board that holds 8 or 16 such EEPROMs all "paralleled" together, except for the chip-select pins, which I can control thru dip switches, a 4-bit hex thumbwheel switch (with some logic) or perhaps a small PIC circuit to create an UP/DOWN function with 2 switches. But if something like this were already commercially available at a fair price, I'd be interested. -Neil. On Monday 05 March 2007 15:10, Bob Axtell wrote: {Quote hidden}> I will be busy with pure engineering tasks and won't be > able to do much PIC stuff anymore so I wanted to pass onto my > PIClist friends some possible ways to make a few bucks > through the use of your PIC talents. This is one: > > Portable PIC Programmer > > Similar to what Tony Nixon was trying to do with his > "Pocket Programmer", there is a market for a truly portable > PIC production programmer. The market is not only production > but also field service (to make field updates). I believe this > market can be as large as $USD 100K the first year, at a cost > of $200ea, and become $USD 1M+ within 3 years. > > It must be able to be loaded from a USB port on a WinXP laptop, > data stored in smaller SD card, storing at least 32 files. To be easy to > control, it probably would need a 2 x 16 LCD display. Needs to be NiMH > powered, with built-in charger which can accept walwart or automotive > charging source. Primarily ICSP but a small 40ZIF as an adaptor might > make it easier to sell. > > - - - > > There are more. > > --Bob

On 3/6/07, Wouter van Ooijen <@spam@wouterKILLspamvoti.nl> wrote: > > > pickit2 already has the 'programming ' button and the on-board flash > > > memory. So when Microchip finally decides to use these > > components the > > > parket for this proposed programmer goes 'poof'.... > > > > I have studied this, and I see no obvious way to power the > > standalone PICkit. > > (as cross-answered on the pickit develop list) > > It has an USB mini B socket. Take a standard USB-A to mini-B cable, cut > it, and connect the power. IIEC I have seen power-only USB hubs which > could be used without cutting the cable. Or make something like that, > but battery powered (I bet that exists, somewhere). > > Wouter van Ooijen > Something like this: http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/gadgets/macally-ipa481-external-battery-187474.php -- You think that it is a secret, but it never has been one. - fortune cookie

Isn't PicKit2 originally deigned for doing that? Ok, the firmware currently does not support it but the hardware design does. The concept was like to store 1 hex into it's eeprom and then when you press the button it programs the target - you just have to supply the voltage through it's mini USB connector which could be a battery operated PSU. Tamas On 3/6/07, PicDude <KILLspampicdude2KILLspamavn-tech.com> wrote: {Quote hidden}> > That's pretty similar to what I was searching for recently, and picked up > the > Kanda handleld programmer. Difference from what you describe are: > (1) Parallel instead of USB port. > (2) Only 1 program (hex file) at a time. > > For (1) adapters can be found, though it doesn't matter to me since I > still > use an older computer with a parallel port for PIC development. > For (2) I poked around and saw that it uses an Atmel EEPROM, which I > assume > holds the program. I intend (though haven't yet tried) to build a small > adapter board that holds 8 or 16 such EEPROMs all "paralleled" together, > except for the chip-select pins, which I can control thru dip switches, a > 4-bit hex thumbwheel switch (with some logic) or perhaps a small PIC > circuit > to create an UP/DOWN function with 2 switches. > > But if something like this were already commercially available at a fair > price, I'd be interested. > > -Neil. > > > On Monday 05 March 2007 15:10, Bob Axtell wrote: > > I will be busy with pure engineering tasks and won't be > > able to do much PIC stuff anymore so I wanted to pass onto my > > PIClist friends some possible ways to make a few bucks > > through the use of your PIC talents. This is one: > > > > Portable PIC Programmer > > > > Similar to what Tony Nixon was trying to do with his > > "Pocket Programmer", there is a market for a truly portable > > PIC production programmer. The market is not only production > > but also field service (to make field updates). I believe this > > market can be as large as $USD 100K the first year, at a cost > > of $200ea, and become $USD 1M+ within 3 years. > > > > It must be able to be loaded from a USB port on a WinXP laptop, > > data stored in smaller SD card, storing at least 32 files. To be easy to > > control, it probably would need a 2 x 16 LCD display. Needs to be NiMH > > powered, with built-in charger which can accept walwart or automotive > > charging source. Primarily ICSP but a small 40ZIF as an adaptor might > > make it easier to sell. > > > > - - - > > > > There are more. > > > > --Bob > -

I was slow again :-) > It has an USB mini B socket. Take a standard USB-A to mini-B cable, cut > it, and connect the power. IIEC I have seen power-only USB hubs which > could be used without cutting the cable. Or make something like that, > but battery powered (I bet that exists, somewhere). I just have a Motorola bloetooth headset for my phone and that has a mini-B connector for charging, they provided a 500mA PSU for that with the appropriate connector on it. So it's not that futuristic. Tamas On 3/6/07, Wouter van Ooijen <RemoveMEwouterTakeThisOuTvoti.nl> wrote: {Quote hidden}> > > > pickit2 already has the 'programming ' button and the on-board flash > > > memory. So when Microchip finally decides to use these > > components the > > > parket for this proposed programmer goes 'poof'.... > > > > I have studied this, and I see no obvious way to power the > > standalone PICkit. > > (as cross-answered on the pickit develop list) > > It has an USB mini B socket. Take a standard USB-A to mini-B cable, cut > it, and connect the power. IIEC I have seen power-only USB hubs which > could be used without cutting the cable. Or make something like that, > but battery powered (I bet that exists, somewhere). > > Wouter van Ooijen > > -- ------------------------------------------- > Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl > consultancy, development, PICmicro products > docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu > > > -

On Mar 6, 2007, at 2:54 AM, Tony Smith wrote: > Sanyo claim to have solved the self-discharge problem - > <http://www.eneloop.com>. > > I came across these about a year ago; I haven't tried them, nor > have I heard anything about them. I'm not sure what their > market actually is, for stuff you only use occasionally alkaline > (or even lithium) would work out better & cheaper. High-drain consumer applications like digital cameras and flashlights, where you want to remove the device from a month or two of storage and just have it work. Alkalines do really badly in digital cameras; they just can't handle the current requirements. And my experience with NiMH has been really bad WRT self-discharge; a week in storage will leave cells nearly depleted... I don't know if the eneloops are worth the current price premium, but reports on their performance are pretty good: http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=149804 BillW

AA and AAA cells are usually sold in pairs or more anyway. (at least in NZ) RP On 07/03/07, Olin Lathrop <spamBeGoneolin_piclistspamBeGoneembedinc.com> wrote: {Quote hidden}> Bob Axtell wrote: > > Probably only ONE NiMH AA would be needed, methinks. > > That would make the converter difficult because of the low voltage going in. > With two primary AA cells you can rely on 2.0V before it's OK to declare the > cells dead and give up. With NiMH you should work down to 900mV per cell. > Even if you treat them like primary cells, just 1V is difficult to work with > and use it efficiently. One cell also gets you half the capacity. It would > be a lot easier to tell people they have to replace the batteries every > 200-500 programming operations, and I don't see that as a marketing problem. > > > --- and Olin, Microchip loves you. They would get behind it if it were > > in a nice case. > > Remember whereas we are engineering types, they are marketing types. Ask > > 'em if there > > is a market, and see what _they_ say. You will be surprised. > > I have in the past asked them about what they would want in a programmer and > if there was any interest in a USBProg-like device designed externally to > their specs. It has never met with any interest. Perhaps it might be > different now that someone can actually hold a USBProg in their hands, but I > rather doubt it. They have a full time professional tools group that does > these things. > > > ******************************************************************** > Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products > (978) 742-9014. Gold level PIC consultants since 2000. > -

> And for that we now have bootloaders which are more convenient and the > update can be done by the customer without extra hardware and without a > technician. This leaves your programmer to serve low volume projects where > the convenience of the bootloader does not justify the development cost to > implement it. Frankly, I think it's a neat idea but I carry around a ICD2 > with my laptop so I wouldn't buy it. Also I'm developing a bootloader for my > application for customer updates. > Good experience. I enjoyed it, too. > So maybe there's a US$ 100k/year market for these things which works out at > a mere 500 units per year and that sounds pretty easy to sell. However I > can't see how you would reach that market without spending a significant > portion of that revenue in advertising. Google ads might do for 50 > units/year, for the remaining 450 what would you do? > The market is primarily with field service engineers. These guys drag around enough stuff, and want a CERTAIN, RELIABLE way of upgrading products. Are you saying they would like dragging around an ICD2, MPLAB, and a laptop, when a 4"x2" programmer with an SD card would do perfectly? Frankly, the ICD2 is too unreliable to be used as a field service tool; it takes too long to get it moving in the right direction, like an old steam engine locomotive. Only a couple of years ago, updates consisted of replacement chips; first UV PROMS, then UV uPs, now flash uP's. MOST are now interfaced by some ICSP scheme. PICs are no different. The other application is on the production floor. The engineering department releases the updated firmware for the whatsit which is almost ready to be boxed up and shipped. The updated firmware goes into the bottom of the production programmer each morning. The programmer charged at its holder all night, and its LiIon or NiMH battery pack is topped off. The QC engineer notes which product needs final updates, dials it in, plugs in a tiny ICSP plug, and updates are done in a few seconds; NOT just the program section, but ALL of it; the config bits as well. Let's look at bootloaders for a second. I've written several, how about you? The customer dials up your website and gets the "latest firmware" release to be installed. He points to the link, and in a few minutes, the new firmware is installed. Here are the pitfalls with bootloaders: 1. The actual firmware can be intercepted and stolen easily. Even if an encryption scheme is used, it can't be very solid, since there is almost no space in the PIC RAM for encryption minterms. Also, adding encryption adds enormous complexity; if you don't know the correct password, THEN what? 2. The client won't routinely use it. You can lead them to water, but they may not drink. Maybe because the encryption process is too complex? 3. Rarely are changes ONLY firmware changes.A product shipment or a field-service visit is usually needed. Flames and unkempt emails accepted. --Bob

Just a few comments: >> portion of that revenue in advertising. Google ads might do >> for 50 >> units/year, for the remaining 450 what would you do? >> > The market is primarily with field service engineers. These > guys drag > around enough stuff, and want a CERTAIN, > RELIABLE way of upgrading products. Are you saying they would > like > dragging around an ICD2, MPLAB, and ---------snip---------- You didn't answer the question! How do you get the other 450 field service engineers - or more accurately, the companies they work for to learn about the existence and benefit of your product? {Quote hidden}> The other application is on the production floor. The > engineering > department releases the updated firmware for the > whatsit which is almost ready to be boxed up and shipped. The > updated > firmware goes into the bottom of the > production programmer each morning. The programmer charged at > its holder > all night, and its LiIon or NiMH > battery pack is topped off. The QC engineer notes which product > needs > final updates, dials it in, plugs in a tiny ICSP > plug, and updates are done in a few seconds; NOT just the > program > section, but ALL of it; the config bits as well. Except for really small shops, programming is done with PC controlled systems. Engineering releases software, production verifies it will load, and then puts it onto a production server. Units in process that have not been programmed go through a software download area that typically includes a PC, barcode reader (so production automatically loads the correct code into the correct units) and a vacuum or clamp fixture that probes the appropriate signals and can also apply power. Units already assembled into housings typically are downloadable (bootload as used here). > Here are the pitfalls with bootloaders: > > 1. The actual firmware can be intercepted and stolen easily. True, however this is a tradeoff of complexity and security. If a customer really wants your code for free, there are ways to get it. Freely available downloads are easier on the customer and your business. > > 2. The client won't routinely use it. You can lead them to > water, but > they may not drink. Maybe because the encryption process > is too complex? Clients WILL NOT upgrade unless there is an issue that effects them. No business is going to take either the time to upgrade or the risk inherent with "new and improved" software unless they need something fixed. > > 3. Rarely are changes ONLY firmware changes.A product shipment > or a > field-service visit is usually needed. > Not true at all. Most changes in software are for bug fixes, or new software features. The typical PC is an extreme case. The cost of a field service visit just to download code will make the customer unhappy. Ken

On Mar 6, 2007, at 1:40 PM, Bob Axtell wrote: > Are you saying they would like dragging around an ICD2, MPLAB, and > a laptop, when a 4"x2" programmer with an SD card would do perfectly? I thought prestige was proportional to the weight of the "kit"? The really good guys get more than one laptop (one running "standard windows", the other running linux, or macos, or something else.) In any case, it looks to me like the picKit2 would be a fine starting place. According to the schematic, there's an ICSP connector on it somewhere (for the onboard chip, not for the device being programmed.) Tie into that and you can provide both power and a couple IO pins useful for accessing a display and SD card (three pins should be sufficient for bidirectional timing-free communication, eh?) Assuming you don't just use the existing 1Mbit (NOT 1Mbyte, right?) of eeprom... And the general design looks clone-able if you want nice packaging. Use the microchip code for its programming algorithms and add you own UI around it. Or maybe you should have a device that connects to a cellphone? BillW

On 3/6/07, Bob Axtell <TakeThisOuTengineerEraseMEspam_OUTneomailbox.com> wrote: > > > > So maybe there's a US$ 100k/year market for these things which works out > at > > a mere 500 units per year and that sounds pretty easy to sell. However I > > can't see how you would reach that market without spending a significant > > portion of that revenue in advertising. Google ads might do for 50 > > units/year, for the remaining 450 what would you do? > > > The market is primarily with field service engineers. These guys drag > around enough stuff, and want a CERTAIN, > RELIABLE way of upgrading products. Are you saying they would like > dragging around an ICD2, MPLAB, and > a laptop, when a 4"x2" programmer with an SD card would do perfectly? > Frankly, the ICD2 is too unreliable to be > used as a field service tool; it takes too long to get it moving in the > right direction, like an old steam engine locomotive. Only a couple of years ago, updates consisted of replacement chips; {Quote hidden}> first UV PROMS, then UV uPs, now flash > uP's. MOST are now interfaced by some ICSP scheme. PICs are no different. > > The other application is on the production floor. The engineering > department releases the updated firmware for the > whatsit which is almost ready to be boxed up and shipped. The updated > firmware goes into the bottom of the > production programmer each morning. The programmer charged at its holder > all night, and its LiIon or NiMH > battery pack is topped off. The QC engineer notes which product needs > final updates, dials it in, plugs in a tiny ICSP > plug, and updates are done in a few seconds; NOT just the program > section, but ALL of it; the config bits as well. You're entirely right here. BUT you still need to convince at least 200 customers to buy 2-3 of your units. And that's HARD work . Let's look at bootloaders for a second. I've written several, how about > you? The customer dials up your website and > gets the "latest firmware" release to be installed. He points to the > link, and in a few minutes, the new firmware is installed. > Here are the pitfalls with bootloaders: > Again you're right about bootloaders. But honestly I´m not sure how the field programmer competes with them. If my customer 500 km away needs a firmware update do I put the programmer in the overnight mail? I think it's a neat idea and it could work. But its a niche product IMO, which means that for it to actually make money you'll have to be VERY clever about selling it to the right people without spending a ton of cash on advertising or becoming a full time salesman.

On 3/5/07, Bob Axtell <RemoveMEengineerTakeThisOuTneomailbox.com> wrote: {Quote hidden}> I will be busy with pure engineering tasks and won't be > able to do much PIC stuff anymore so I wanted to pass onto my > PIClist friends some possible ways to make a few bucks > through the use of your PIC talents. This is one: > > Portable PIC Programmer > > Similar to what Tony Nixon was trying to do with his > "Pocket Programmer", there is a market for a truly portable > PIC production programmer. The market is not only production > but also field service (to make field updates). I believe this > market can be as large as $USD 100K the first year, at a cost > of $200ea, and become $USD 1M+ within 3 years. > > It must be able to be loaded from a USB port on a WinXP laptop, > data stored in smaller SD card, storing at least 32 files. To be easy to > control, it probably would need a 2 x 16 LCD display. Needs to be NiMH > powered, with built-in charger which can accept walwart or automotive > charging source. Primarily ICSP but a small 40ZIF as an adaptor might > make it easier to sell. > > - - - > > There are more. If must be loaded from an USB, program stored on a FLASH card, why it will need NiMh as long the target must be also supplied for programming ? When you program the target you already have supply. I can't see who will buy such programmer... Vasile

Cristóvão Dalla Costa wrote: {Quote hidden}> On 3/6/07, Bob Axtell <engineerEraseME.....neomailbox.com> wrote: > >> >>> So maybe there's a US$ 100k/year market for these things which works out >>> >> at >> >>> a mere 500 units per year and that sounds pretty easy to sell. However I >>> can't see how you would reach that market without spending a significant >>> portion of that revenue in advertising. Google ads might do for 50 >>> units/year, for the remaining 450 what would you do? >>> >>> >> The market is primarily with field service engineers. These guys drag >> around enough stuff, and want a CERTAIN, >> RELIABLE way of upgrading products. Are you saying they would like >> dragging around an ICD2, MPLAB, and >> a laptop, when a 4"x2" programmer with an SD card would do perfectly? >> Frankly, the ICD2 is too unreliable to be >> used as a field service tool; it takes too long to get it moving in the >> right direction, like an old steam engine locomotive. >> > > > Only a couple of years ago, updates consisted of replacement chips; > >> first UV PROMS, then UV uPs, now flash >> uP's. MOST are now interfaced by some ICSP scheme. PICs are no different. >> >> The other application is on the production floor. The engineering >> department releases the updated firmware for the >> whatsit which is almost ready to be boxed up and shipped. The updated >> firmware goes into the bottom of the >> production programmer each morning. The programmer charged at its holder >> all night, and its LiIon or NiMH >> battery pack is topped off. The QC engineer notes which product needs >> final updates, dials it in, plugs in a tiny ICSP >> plug, and updates are done in a few seconds; NOT just the program >> section, but ALL of it; the config bits as well. >> > > > You're entirely right here. BUT you still need to convince at least 200 > customers to buy 2-3 of your units. And that's HARD work . > > Let's look at bootloaders for a second. I've written several, how about > >> you? The customer dials up your website and >> gets the "latest firmware" release to be installed. He points to the >> link, and in a few minutes, the new firmware is installed. >> Here are the pitfalls with bootloaders: >> >> > > Again you're right about bootloaders. But honestly I´m not sure how the > field programmer competes with them. If my customer 500 km away needs a > firmware update do I put the programmer in the overnight mail? > > I think it's a neat idea and it could work. But its a niche product IMO, > which means that for it to actually make money you'll have to be VERY clever > about selling it to the right people without spending a ton of cash on > advertising or becoming a full time salesman. > Yes. Some advertising will have to be directed to field service and test floor management. --Bob

Still I can't see the utility of such device. Imagine you have stored a wrong hex file. You should go back to the PC, correct the assembler file, compile, store the hex file on your programmer and go back to the filed. Thast why was created a whole range of small laptops, for field application including PIC programming. If someting goes wrong, you may correct the problem directly on field, using the laptop and program the PIC. Vasile On 3/7/07, PicDude <EraseMEpicdude2avn-tech.com> wrote: {Quote hidden}> You are missing one key point here -- that the portable programmer would be > programmed at a PC, then taken to the field as a standalone device where it > would be used to upload the hex file to the PIC application. That is when > the supply is needed. > > -Neil. > > > On Wednesday 07 March 2007 12:54, Vasile Surducan wrote: > > > > If must be loaded from an USB, program stored on a FLASH card, why it > > will need NiMh as long the target must be also supplied for > > programming ? When you program the target you already have supply. > > > > I can't see who will buy such programmer... > > > > Vasile > -