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'[PIC] Pins from Pickit 2 to 887'
2008\06\18@193645 by Tomás Ó hÉilidhe

picon face

I got the "Pickit2 Debug Express" yesterday. It consists of:

   * Pickit2 device that looks like a small black hockey puck
   * A small little prototype board that has an 887 in the middle of
it, plus a few LED's and a variable resistor

The 887 came shipped with a program on it that lights the LED's in a
sequence.

I've used the device with MPLAB and I'm happy with it, I can program it
and debug it. I can halt the program and single-step through the
instructions. It's great.

Given that I'm so happy with this setup, I want to mimic it on my actual
project board. Therefore I've been analysing the connections from the
Pickit2 to the prototype board. There's 6 pins going from the Pickit2 to
the small board. These 6 pins are unmarked on the Pickit2 (no name or
symbol on them).

On my project board, I'm going to have a 6-pin header for hooking up the
Pickit2 to it.

Using the continuity tester on my multimeter, I've determined, from left
to right, that the Pickit2 pins go to the following on the 887:

   1: ?? (Doesn't seem to be connected to anything)
   2: RB6   /   ICSPCLK
   3: RB7   /   ICSPDATA
   4: GND
   5 Vdd
                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

   6: MCLR   /   Vpp

Here's my first questions:
   Q1) On my project board, is it OK to hard-wire Vdd and GND to 5 V
and 0 V respectively? Or does the Pickit 2 need to control them?

   Q2) Can I just hardwire the MCLR pin straight to my 6-pin header, or
do I need this pin to have a specific value for normal operation? (i.e.
is it OK to have it floating when the Pickit2 isn't connected)?

Regarding RB6 and RB7, well I was planning on using all the pins on port
B for push buttons. One side of a pushbutton would go to the PIC pin,
and the other would go straight to GND. I would then use the internal
pull-up's so that I don't need a resistor on each of the pushbuttons.

   Q3) Will I not be able to use RB6 and RB7 for pushbuttons when I'm
in debug mode? Or will I not be able to use them at all because of the
voltages applied to them by the Pickit2? (It's no big deal if I can't,
it's just that the internal pull-up's are handy because they negate the
need for extra resistors so that the pin is floating)

It doesn't appear as if the Pickit2's leftmost pin is connected to
anything, but if anyone knows better then please advise!

Also if there's any caveats please let me know! Am I on the right track
with this?

2008\06\18@200452 by Tamas Rudnai

face picon face
Great device, isn't it? :-)

>   Q1) On my project board, is it OK to hard-wire Vdd and GND to 5 V
> and 0 V respectively? Or does the Pickit 2 need to control them?

PicKit2 CAN supply +5V (or less) however, you can supply Vdd of your own,
PicKit2 will know it and will switch off Vdd supply - you will see a notice
when you run the app.

>    Q2) Can I just hardwire the MCLR pin straight to my 6-pin header, or
> do I need this pin to have a specific value for normal operation? (i.e.
> is it OK to have it floating when the Pickit2 isn't connected)?

If MCLR_OFF is in your config fuse then the PIC will switch on the internal
pullup on the MCLR, so you can leave it as it is - and wire it to the PicKit
pin as you mentioned. See the datasheet what it says abut MCLR anyway. Also
look for ICSP or In Circuit Serial Programming for get the idea what it is
all about, how to wire etc. Someone here or in an other thread here
mentioned Olin's information about this, it worth to read.

>   Q3) Will I not be able to use RB6 and RB7 for pushbuttons when I'm
> in debug mode? Or will I not be able to use them at all because of the
> voltages applied to them by the Pickit2?

It's not a voltage (aka DC) but a serial communication in between the chip
and the pickit2. I'd suggest not using these at least during the development
phase - or experiment phase to learn PIC.

The "leftmost" pin as you call it is the PGM pin or LVP pin. You do not need
to use that really, but see the datasheet and maybe the programmer guide
what to do with the PGM/LVP pin of the PIC. If that is always connected to
PicKit2 it is safe to wire it only to that "leftmost" pin... And take a look
at the PicKit2 owners manual, the pins are well defined there so the
schematics of pickit2 if you need the idea for interfacing with it.

Tamas



On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 12:36 AM, Tomás Ó hÉilidhe <spam_OUTtoeTakeThisOuTspamlavabit.com> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

>

2008\06\18@201600 by Richard Seriani, Sr.

picon face

The PICkit2 User's Guide and the ICSP Guide have the answers to your
questions. While I am not done studying these yet (I've had my PICkit2 for
only about a week), I do specifically recall reading about, and seeing an
illustration of, the connector pinout. Also, the question of what to do
about isolating pins is in the ICSP Guide, along with info about !MCLR, etc.

Both of these documents are on the CD that came with the PICkit2. They are
also available on the Microchip web site.

Richard

{Original Message removed}

2008\06\18@212753 by Timothy J. Weber

face picon face
Tamas Rudnai wrote:
>>   Q3) Will I not be able to use RB6 and RB7 for pushbuttons when I'm
>> in debug mode? Or will I not be able to use them at all because of the
>> voltages applied to them by the Pickit2?
>
> It's not a voltage (aka DC) but a serial communication in between the chip
> and the pickit2. I'd suggest not using these at least during the development
> phase - or experiment phase to learn PIC.

And just to amplify that - no, you can't use them for buttons when the
PICkit2 is connected, because the PICkit2 has pull-down resistors on
them.  Well, you could use them for buttons if the buttons are pulled up
on contact, but you still can't use them while debugging.
--
Timothy J. Weber
http://timothyweber.org

2008\06\19@013604 by Jan-Erik Soderholm

face picon face
Tomás Ó hÉilidhe wrote:

> These 6 pins are unmarked on the Pickit2 (no name or
> symbol on them).

It would surprice me *very much* if the connector
isn't documented in the PICkit2 documentation !

I just checked and of course it is, on page 9 in
the "PICkit? 2 Programmer/Debugger User?s Guide".

You havn't even cared to look in the user guide,
have you ?? Lazy...

>     Q2) Can I just hardwire the MCLR pin straight to my 6-pin header, or
> do I need this pin to have a specific value for normal operation? (i.e.
> is it OK to have it floating when the Pickit2 isn't connected)?

Again, you havn't even cared to open the datasheet.
Section 14.2.2 on page 209 clearly answers this.

MCLR shoud *not* be left open. And you should *not*
try to use "internal MCLR" at this stage. There is
no reason to go into details at this stage, just
don't try it...

Jan-Erik.

2008\06\19@030558 by Apptech

face
flavicon
face
> ... and of course it is ...

Translation: As I suspected it would be.

> Lazy...

Translation:

1.     I'm standing in as a locum.
or
2.     I'm tired of posting here anyway.
or
3.    ... ?

> ... you havn't even cared to  ...

Translation:

1.    ... you don't appear to have ...

> MCLR shoud *not* be left open. And you should *not*
try to use "internal MCLR" at this stage. There is
no reason to go into details at this stage, just
don't try it...

Translation:    This snippet of valuable information ,
unlike the other, may not be obvious from the data sheet for
a beginner but I'm not going to tell you why. Just trust me
on this. After all, what option do you have?



       R

2008\06\19@035018 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
>> ... and of course it is ...
> Translation: As I suspected it would be.

so the OP will know where to look for the answer to a similar problem
next time. don't (just) give them food, learn them how to grow crops

>> Lazy...
>
> Translation:
>
> 1.     I'm standing in as a locum.
> or
> 2.     I'm tired of posting here anyway.
> or
> 3.    ... ?

3. it can be considered a bit impolite to ask a question without first
looking in top few the most obvious places.

I have no idea what a locum is meant to be?

>> MCLR shoud *not* be left open. And you should *not*
> try to use "internal MCLR" at this stage. There is
> no reason to go into details at this stage, just
> don't try it...
>
> Translation:    This snippet of valuable information ,
> unlike the other, may not be obvious from the data sheet for
> a beginner but I'm not going to tell you why. Just trust me
> on this. After all, what option do you have?

MCLR should not be left open, this is perfectly clear from both the
datasheet, the programming documentation, and from the meaning of the pin.

The fact that internal MCLR can cause problems is not clear from the
obvious sources, so it seems a good idea to me to give that hint to the
OP, or should JE have kept that to himself?

The explanation for this problem is complex, and the link (to the
microchip forum) can be found in earlier posts. I don't understand why
you seem to critisise JE here. Is it for bidden to give a very important
hint without also giving the (very long and complex) explanation (that
is available elswhere, explained by probably the only person why realy
understand it)?

--

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu

2008\06\19@043101 by Jan-Erik Soderholm

face picon face
Wouter van Ooijen wrote:

> I have no idea what a locum is meant to be?

Neither do I. :-)
But I guessed it wasn't anything positive... :-) :-)

> The fact that internal MCLR can cause problems is not
> clear from the obvious sources,...
>
> The explanation for this problem is complex,...

Exactly, that's why I thought that it was no use, at
this stage, to go into details about Vpp-before-Vdd
and other int-MCLR specifics. If you realy don't *have*
to have that extra I/O-pin, just leave it as ext-MCLR.
And follow the datasheet about how to connect it...

And I do not think that the OP currently need another
problem to deal with.

Regards,
Jan-Erik.

2008\06\19@050708 by Apptech

face
flavicon
face
We don't disagree very much at all on substantive content,
fwiw.

> Wouter van Ooijen wrote:

>> I have no idea what a locum is meant to be?

> Neither do I. :-)
> But I guessed it wasn't anything positive... :-) :-)

i) Moi? Would I be non positive ? :-)

ii) I'm surprised that y'all haven't checked the available
internet resources before asking what something means. You
were asking, weren't you? :-)

       http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locum

   "Locum, short for the Latin phrase locum tenens (lit.
"place-holder," akin to lieutenant), is a person who
temporarily fulfills the duties of another. For example, a
Locum doctor is a doctor who works in the place of the
regular doctor when that doctor is absent. These
professionals are still governed by their respective
regulatory bodies, despite the transient nature of their
positions.
The abbreviated form "locum" is common in Great Britain,
Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and most other countries;
unlike in Latin its plural is locums. In the United States,
the full length "locum tenens" is preferred, though for some
particular roles, alternative expressions (e.g. "substitute
teacher") may be more commonly used."



Positive enough ? :-)

__________________________________________

{Quote hidden}

Sounds good.

I'll split you 50:50 on that one.

Deal ?

:-).

My point was not just to be picky (although I may have
erred, perhaps, just maybe, can it be) a little too far that
way, but to suggest that "steel fist in velvet glove" /
"walk softly, carry a big stick" may elicit better results
than "the beatings will continue until morale improves". Not
always though. WE Irish can be stubborn in such matters.
(Even though I've only spent 3 days there ever and it's well
over 100 years since any of my ancestors left there).



       Russell





2008\06\19@053526 by Jinx

face picon face
> I have no idea what a locum is meant to be?

They're those things that eat all the crops aren't they ?

(I know what Russell is alluding to)

2008\06\19@055643 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> ii) I'm surprised that y'all haven't checked the available
> internet resources before asking what something means. You
> were asking, weren't you? :-)

actually I *did* check, but only found the Latin explanation that (to
me) did not make any obvious sense. I hope you did not mean JE to be a
stand in for O in the negative sense?

> My point was not just to be picky (although I may have
> erred, perhaps, just maybe, can it be) a little too far that
> way, but to suggest that "steel fist in velvet glove" /
> "walk softly, carry a big stick" may elicit better results
> than "the beatings will continue until morale improves".

There are different viewpoints on this matter. If the "velvet gloves"
start criticizing the "big sticks", they might expect some criticism in
return! So maybe we should all just answer the questions asked, and
refrain from (non-technical) comment on the styles of the answers?

--

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu

2008\06\19@060639 by James Nick Sears

flavicon
face
On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 5:56 AM, Wouter van Ooijen <.....wouterKILLspamspam@spam@voti.nl> wrote:
>> ii) I'm surprised that y'all haven't checked the available
>> internet resources before asking what something means. You
>> were asking, weren't you? :-)
>
> actually I *did* check, but only found the Latin explanation that (to
> me) did not make any obvious sense. I hope you did not mean JE to be a
> stand in for O in the negative sense?

Didn't you even BOTHER to check GOOGLE and WIKIPEDIA?!?!?!??!?1/1/11!1!

Google+Wikipedia : The real world :: Datasheets+Appnotes :: PIC micros

http://www.google.com/search?q=define%3A+locum
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locum

(All in good fun of course)

-n.

2008\06\19@061217 by Tamas Rudnai

face picon face
I am not sure why to argue 'bout everything... Someone has an opinion,
others have different one, that's ok. No reason to criticising the other
only to write for the sake of criticism. That's why a forum is good,
everyone writes his/her contribution to the subject and it can be a hint or
a straight answer, similar or opposite than the others, but you can express
your thought/knowledge. However, to post something to just telling how or
why the previous answer made - 'dunno guys, really...

Tamas


On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 10:56 AM, Wouter van Ooijen <wouterspamKILLspamvoti.nl> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> -

2008\06\19@062329 by James Nick Sears

flavicon
face
In an ideal world, O how I agree with you.  How beautiful would it be.

"I see skies of blue, red roses too..."

-n.


On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 6:12 AM, Tamas Rudnai <.....tamas.rudnaiKILLspamspam.....gmail.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>> --

2008\06\19@064328 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
James Nick Sears wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 5:56 AM, Wouter van Ooijen <wouterspamspam_OUTvoti.nl> wrote:
>>> ii) I'm surprised that y'all haven't checked the available
>>> internet resources before asking what something means. You
>>> were asking, weren't you? :-)

>> actually I *did* check, but only found the Latin explanation that (to
>> me) did not make any obvious sense. I hope you did not mean JE to be a
>> stand in for O in the negative sense?

> Didn't you even BOTHER to check GOOGLE and WIKIPEDIA?!?!?!??!?1/1/11!1!

I am flabbergasted. I wrote "actually I *did* check" and you answer
"Didn't you even BOTHER to check"?

--

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu

2008\06\19@065603 by James Nick Sears

flavicon
face
On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 6:43 AM, Wouter van Ooijen <@spam@wouterKILLspamspamvoti.nl> wrote:
> James Nick Sears wrote:
>> On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 5:56 AM, Wouter van Ooijen <KILLspamwouterKILLspamspamvoti.nl> wrote:
>>>> ii) I'm surprised that y'all haven't checked the available
>>>> internet resources before asking what something means. You
>>>> were asking, weren't you? :-)
>
>>> actually I *did* check, but only found the Latin explanation that (to
>>> me) did not make any obvious sense. I hope you did not mean JE to be a
>>> stand in for O in the negative sense?
>
>> Didn't you even BOTHER to check GOOGLE and WIKIPEDIA?!?!?!??!?1/1/11!1!
>
> I am flabbergasted. I wrote "actually I *did* check" and you answer
> "Didn't you even BOTHER to check"?

You can SAY you checked, but if you didn't find what was publicly
available, you mustn't have checked thoroughly enough.

I didn't know what 'locum' meant either, but a quick glance at Google
cleared things right up for me.  So it should for you as well.

I'm sure all the n00bs that get busted up in here have glanced in the
general direction of the datasheet.  But until they find the answer,
it's back to the datasheet they must go.

-n.

2008\06\19@072907 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> You can SAY you checked, but if you didn't find what was publicly
> available, you mustn't have checked thoroughly enough.

I did read the wiki entry, and what I said was that I did not find an
interpretation that made sense to me.

> I didn't know what 'locum' meant either, but a quick glance at Google
> cleared things right up for me.  So it should for you as well.

what it means is one thing. what I did not find was a meaning that made
sense to me.

> I'm sure all the n00bs that get busted up in here have glanced in the
> general direction of the datasheet.  But until they find the answer,
> it's back to the datasheet they must go.

no reasonable response possible

--

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu

2008\06\19@073011 by Apptech

face
flavicon
face
>>> Didn't you even BOTHER ...
>> I am flabbergasted ...
> You can SAY ...
> I didn't know what 'locum' meant either...
> I'm sure all the n00bs ...

I hope that we are all yelling at each other with our
tongues variably firmly in our cheeks and are all learning a
bit from each other even as we expound our points.

I am. Or, I am trying to.

I knew what I was saying when I said it, and I knew I'd get
some reaction, but I do somewhat regret  not having softened
it down a bit to get a bit more of a wry response than a
heated one.

I did think the 'locum' line was quite good (regardless of
whether it was :-) ), but I certainly didn't foresee the
aggro that would grow from it.

My sincere apologies. I suspect that it does indeed give at
least some sort of insight into the newby question asking
scenario where after only a few exchanges we are all yelling
fairly loudly about the framework rather than the content.
Not that there is too much content here.

Ah - I see this has a PIC tag.
I don't know if there will be a felt need to respond to any
response to this but if I do respond again it will be with
an OT tag. Others may use whatever tag seems best to them.

I really would like us to be able to find a middle ground on
this. I certainly don't approve in encouraging lazy
behaviour and I do approve of encouraging people to learn
how to use the resources. But I do also feel that those with
thicker skin and more experience of being brutalised have
little idea of how bruising it can be to have people descent
on them from a height.

Wouter's  flabbergastion is probably felt by many a beginner
who HAS trolled (meaning 2.3) through the various data
sheets and then asked a question that appears unresearched
and suffered a royal carronade. Whatever.

I learn a little each time we do this.
I don't want to keep doing so until I'm 100 :-).


 regards


           Russell




2008\06\19@080542 by olin piclist

face picon face
Tomás Ó hÉilidhe wrote:
>     1: ?? (Doesn't seem to be connected to anything)
>     2: RB6   /   ICSPCLK
>     3: RB7   /   ICSPDATA
>     4: GND
>     5 Vdd
>     6: MCLR   /   Vpp

This is the standard Microchip sequence of lines.  The unused pin was
originally intended for PGM, but that was never implemented.

>     Q2) Can I just hardwire the MCLR pin straight to my 6-pin header,
> or do I need this pin to have a specific value for normal operation?
> (i.e. is it OK to have it floating when the Pickit2 isn't connected)?

It must be externally driven high.  Never leave any input floating.  A
20Kohm pullup to Vdd is usually a good solution.

>     Q3) Will I not be able to use RB6 and RB7 for pushbuttons when I'm
> in debug mode?

I guess on your PIC RB6 and RB7 are PGC and PGD?  When you are using those
pins for programming or debugging you can't use them for anything else.
Once the programmer/debugger has been disconnected, your firmware can use
them any way it wants to.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2008\06\19@084107 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 8:07 PM, Olin Lathrop <RemoveMEolin_piclistTakeThisOuTspamembedinc.com> wrote:
> Tomás Ó hÉilidhe wrote:
>>     1: ?? (Doesn't seem to be connected to anything)
>>     2: RB6   /   ICSPCLK
>>     3: RB7   /   ICSPDATA
>>     4: GND
>>     5 Vdd
>>     6: MCLR   /   Vpp

Actually this is reversed for PICkit 1. Pin 1 is Vpp/MCLR. Pin
6 is called AUX for PICkit 2.

> This is the standard Microchip sequence of lines.  The unused pin was
> originally intended for PGM, but that was never implemented.
>

For ICSP programming of PICs, pin 6 is not used. However, in the
case of PICkit 2, it can program serial EEPROMs and other
device so pin 6 (AUX) is used.

http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/DeviceDoc/PICkit%202%20Readme%20v2-51-00%20(a).txt

Regards.
Xiaofan

2008\06\19@084426 by olin piclist

face picon face
James Nick Sears wrote:
> I'm sure all the n00bs that get busted up in here have glanced in the
> general direction of the datasheet.

Unfortunately, all too often they haven't.  If they did, we wouldn't get
stupid questions like which pin RB1 was on, for example.

I don't understand why we have to keep rehashing this.  If someone asks a
dumb question that is clearly and directly answered in the datasheet right
where you'd expect to find it, I and Jan-Erik and Wouter and a bunch of
others will probably tell them to RTFM.  Complaining about us saying that is
totally pointless and a waste of time.  I don't care if you think it's right
or not, I'm going to continue to say RTFM when I think it's appropriate.  If
Russell and others can stop complaining about that, maybe I won't start
complaining to them whenever they answer such a question instead of teaching
the OP a lesson and telling him to RTFM.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2008\06\19@090813 by James Nick Sears

flavicon
face
On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 8:46 AM, Olin Lathrop <spamBeGoneolin_piclistspamBeGonespamembedinc.com> wrote:
> James Nick Sears wrote:
>> I'm sure all the n00bs that get busted up in here have glanced in the
>> general direction of the datasheet.
>
> Unfortunately, all too often they haven't.  If they did, we wouldn't get
> stupid questions like which pin RB1 was on, for example.
>
> I don't understand why we have to keep rehashing this.  If someone asks a
> dumb question that is clearly and directly answered in the datasheet right
> where you'd expect to find it, I and Jan-Erik and Wouter and a bunch of
> others will probably tell them to RTFM.  Complaining about us saying that is
> totally pointless and a waste of time.  I don't care if you think it's right
> or not, I'm going to continue to say RTFM when I think it's appropriate.  If
> Russell and others can stop complaining about that, maybe I won't start
> complaining to them whenever they answer such a question instead of teaching
> the OP a lesson and telling him to RTFM.

Look, my post was all about wrapping this up by agreeing to disagree.
Clearly that isn't something you are capable of doing.  I wasn't
addressing you, I was addressing a different part of this discussion
that (GASP!) didn't revolve around you.  I was explaining my
viewpoint, not attacking you or your point of view or anything else to
do with you.  I think if you would read the rest of what I wrote you
might learn something.  From 90% of the responses I see from you, it's
not the RTFM that rubs me wrong, it's your general bitter attitude.  I
don't know what the problem is and frankly I don't care.  You can do
what you like and treat other people however you like.  But let me say
this, if you ever, EVER jump me for answering someone's question that
you find beneath you, all bets are off.

But anyway, in the meantime and in the interest of agreeing to
disagree, I'm done with this.  It's your God-given right to be a dick
if you like.  It's your life.

Enjoy it.

-n.




>
>
> ********************************************************************
> Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
> (978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.
> -

2008\06\19@102714 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> But let me say
> this, if you ever, EVER jump me for answering someone's question that
> you find beneath you, all bets are off.

Oh, so you are allowed to start yelling at people because you disagree
with their answering style, but when someone disagrees with your style
all bets are off?

--

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu

2008\06\19@105119 by James Nick Sears

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face
On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 9:51 AM, Wouter van Ooijen <TakeThisOuTwouterEraseMEspamspam_OUTvoti.nl> wrote:
>  > But let me say
>> this, if you ever, EVER jump me for answering someone's question that
>> you find beneath you, all bets are off.
>
> Oh, so you are allowed to start yelling at people because you disagree
> with their answering style, but when someone disagrees with your style
> all bets are off?

If you had read prior to replying, you might have noticed that I
agreed *not to yell at people for how they treat other people*.  The
quoted sentence is just clarifying that I'm not promising the same
when things are directed at me.  It's one thing to turn my head when
people are treating others like crap.  It's not how I like to do
things, but it's foolish to think I'm going to change such deeply
rooted thought patterns.  On the other hand, it's quite a different
situation if I get jumped for trying to help someone, or for that
matter for something I ask.  There might be a few people on this list
who think they need certain peoples' help badly enough that they'll
put up with anything to get it.  I'm not one of them.

-n.


>
> --
>
> Wouter van Ooijen
>
> -- -------------------------------------------
> Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
> consultancy, development, PICmicro products
> docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu
>
> -

2008\06\19@110049 by Apptech

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If Y'All want to have a flame war and end up having some one
thrown off the list, would you please hold it in [OT] and
not in [PIC].

Ta muchly


       Russell


2008\06\20@095906 by Jake Anderson

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Olin Lathrop wrote:
> James Nick Sears wrote:
>  
>> I'm sure all the n00bs that get busted up in here have glanced in the
>> general direction of the datasheet.
>>    
>
> Unfortunately, all too often they haven't.  If they did, we wouldn't get
> stupid questions like which pin RB1 was on, for example.
>
> I don't understand why we have to keep rehashing this.
Perhaps its because other people feel differently to you? Not just one
either, my god other people have feelings? what a revelation.
Just as you feel its your right to tell people to RTFM however harshly
you feel like, others feel its their right to tell you to STFU and be
nice about things for a change.

>  If someone asks a
> dumb question that is clearly and directly answered in the datasheet right
> where you'd expect to find it, I and Jan-Erik and Wouter and a bunch of
> others will probably tell them to RTFM.  
Datasheets run upwards of 300 pages, and then there are the 5 other
datasheets that all interact with the one for the component in question,
perhaps when somebody has had a PIC for a week expecting them to be
fluent with ~1500 pages of deeply technical datasheet on the chance that
the thing they are interested in may be covered on one of those pages
may be a little high perhaps? Some people don't have English as their
first language (and looking at the extended character set in the OP's
name I think he is a prime example), and even those that do may on
occasion just not have the right key words in their mind when looking
for something.

> Complaining about us saying that is
> totally pointless and a waste of time.
As is complaining about us telling you to be nice, or at least not a
arrogant bastard ;->
>   I don't care if you think it's right
> or not,
And i don't care if you think i'm right or not either. I bet i can pee
higher though.
> I'm going to continue to say RTFM when I think it's appropriate.
Nobody says don't say RTFM.
The thing people take issue with is when you say "RTFM you lazy idiot"
Saying instead "This is covered on page 9 of the datasheet" as the start
and end of the response would be perfectly acceptable, nobody would take
issue with that.

see the difference is the "lazy idiot" part
or perhaps "didn't you even read?"
Its the bit where you tell the person, that because they aren't as
knowledgeable as you they shouldn't have dared ask a question.

If everybody has to learn everything from first principles then society
must by definition stop technological progress. (I'm fairly sure the
pilot of the 747 isnt that up on the chemical process whereby the
titanium for the blades is refined.)
Whilst people use things without a complete understanding of everything
that went into them there will always be "stupid questions" because the
person asking the question is more interested in solving the problem
than learning about a whole bunch of stuff that once their problem is
solved, they no longer need to know.

I bet somewhere out there there is a field that even Olin has some
interest in that he doesn't know everything about, and just maby there
is the chance olin could ask a dumb question.

Perhaps some role playing
Why is there an Accelerando above the 4th line of the toccata en fugue?  
(assuming that for some reason Olin likes the pipe organ)
may perhaps spring up on a forum somewhere
then there's the reply
"Your so lazy didn't you even read Heimlics treatis on Bach well I'm not
doing your homework for you go read the book and then you will know"

*gasp* Olin was actually just playing it because he wanted to help his
local scout troop out by playing the spooky music for their Halloween
play, not because he wanted to be an expert in musical appreciation and
the worlds number one pipe organist (magle).

Wouldn't he rather have somebody say
"Its because in an old style pipe organ it could take the bellows some
time to respond to the air demands of the 7th line, playing that section
a bit quicker made the next line with all the bassy stuff sound fuller,
on an electric powered organ don't worry about it, all this stuff is
covered in Heimlics treatis on Bach which has all this stuff in it and
is basically the best reference your going to find"

That person has now saved Olin $50 worth of books, 10 days worth of time
reading the thing, and the scout troop actually gets decent sounding
spooky music for their show.

>   If
> Russell and others can stop complaining about that, maybe I won't start
> complaining to them whenever they answer such a question instead of teaching
> the OP a lesson and telling him to RTFM.
>
>  
Perhaps the lesson is in assisting the person with the item they are
having trouble with and showing them the error of their ways rather than
teaching them them dislike you personally.

2008\06\20@103120 by olin piclist

face picon face
Jake Anderson wrote:
>> I don't understand why we have to keep rehashing this.
>
> Perhaps its because other people feel differently to you?

Right, we know that.  But we don't have to keep hearing it since doing so
won't change anything.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2008\06\20@114943 by Gaston Gagnon

face
flavicon
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Olin Lathrop wrote:
> Jake Anderson wrote:
>  
>>> I don't understand why we have to keep rehashing this.
>>>      
>> Perhaps its because other people feel differently to you?
>>    
>
> Right, we know that.  But we don't have to keep hearing it since doing so
> won't change anything.
>
>
>  
Bob, do you see how arrogant a guy can become when he has the admin on
his side?
What did you say about members being capable of self-moderation?
Clearly some people have neither the ability nor the desire to contain
themselves.
Gaston



2008\06\20@121502 by Apptech

face
flavicon
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Time, gentlemen (and ladies), please.

This definitely doesn't belong in PIC. OT maybe .
Any chance we wan TI3VOM it elsewhere?

>>>> I don't understand ...
>>> Perhaps its because ...
>> Right, we know that.  ...
> Bob, do you see ...
...


       R


'[PIC] Pins from Pickit 2 to 887'
2008\07\11@123729 by Bob Axtell
face picon face
The pin identified by the ">" is not connected to anything. The next 5 pins
are identified in exactly the same way as the ICD2. More below.

On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 4:36 PM, Tomás Ó hÉilidhe <RemoveMEtoespamTakeThisOuTlavabit.com> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

The PICKIT2 can grab  them and provide the VDD and GND for programming
tasks.

>
>
>    Q2) Can I just hardwire the MCLR pin straight to my 6-pin header, or
> do I need this pin to have a specific value for normal operation? (i.e.
> is it OK to have it floating when the Pickit2 isn't connected)?


Connect it to VDD  thru a 10K resistor.

{Quote hidden}

When in debug mode, you cannot press your buttons. That's all.

>
>
> It doesn't appear as if the Pickit2's leftmost pin is connected to
> anything, but if anyone knows better then please advise!
>

Not used.


>
> Also if there's any caveats please let me know! Am I on the right track
> with this?
>
>

2008\07\12@035639 by Christopher Head

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Bob Axtell wrote:
| The pin identified by the ">" is not connected to anything. The next 5
pins
| are identified in exactly the same way as the ICD2. More below.
|
[snip]

Nope! The pinout is on page 9 of DS51553, the PICkit2 manual. The
rightmost pin, which is the pin marked with the triangle, is VPP.
Proceeding left the remaining pins are VDD, Ground, PGD, PGC, and AUX.
It is not necessary to connect AUX in order to do programming or
debugging, but it can be used by the logic probe and logic analyzer. The
other five pins (VPP, VDD, Ground, PGD, and PGC) all need to be
connected to the corresponding pins on the PIC.

Chris
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