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'[PIC] Pic Tutor'
2006\01\12@041040 by Alex Rogers

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Please can anyone help?  I want to get back into Pic programming after a
couple of years doing other things.  I got my pic programmer our of the loft
and have tried to get it working.  In the meantime, of course, I know have a
different PC and I've lost the software to program with.

Does anyone recognise my programmer?  It is called a Pic Tutor v2.   I have
put a picture of it at http://www.smartcti.com/pictutor.jpg . Can anyone help?  I
have tried Tait (using 'quick and dirty style') and a couple of other
programmers but still can't work it out.

When I fired it up, I still had my 16F84 with a program on it which worked
(lights blinked, etc.)  I have now managed to 'blank' the chip so it doesn't
do anything!  I have tried a new chip, a 16F84A, but still no good.

Alex



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2006\01\12@042857 by Jinx

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www.magenta2000.co.uk/kits/870.htm

Layout looks very similar

2006\01\12@044733 by Alan B. Pearce

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>When I fired it up, I still had my 16F84 with a program on it which
>worked (lights blinked, etc.) I have now managed to 'blank' the chip
>so it doesn't do anything!  I have tried a new chip, a 16F84A,
>but still no good.

I cannot help with the software, but just some advice. Be wary of
substituting an 'A' device for an earlier one. In many cases they have a
different programming algorithm designed to speed up the programming. In
most cases this means that an 'A' chip will not program using the algorithm
for the earlier chip. I am not sure if this is the case for the 16F84 &
16F84A, but just a "heads up" to check the respective data sheets, and make
sure.

2006\01\12@050814 by Michael Rigby-Jones

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{Quote hidden}

I'm not familiar with that particular board, but from inspection of the
picture I can't see the usual components that would be associated with a
Tait style programmer, e.g. 78LS05 and the switching transistors.
Unless these are surface mounted on the other side of the PCB, I suspect
this might be a very basic programmer design that may not work with
standard Tait software.

It may be worthwhile emailing Magenta to see if they have bespoke
software for the kit which Jinx linked to in his post.

Regards

Mike

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2006\01\12@071634 by Alex Rogers

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Thank you very much to everyone who has offered advice, etc. so far.
Further to suggestions, I have now phoned Magenta who could not have been
more helpful.  It appears that it is an older version of the product that
they currently produce.  

The voltage regulator, etc. is on board, but the board is basically a 'quick
and dirty' in the programming sense, with more emphasis on using it as a
'runtime' board.  However, I am still having a problem getting it to
program.

I am using the Tait programmer and others to send different hex files (which
work in my simulator).  I switch 3 switches on the board and the MCLR pin
goes to 13.2v, Pin 12 on my 16F84 goes to D0 (pin 2) on the parallel cable,
and Pin 11 goes to D1, for clock and data.  These get held at 0v and rise
during the programming cycle (obviously a bit quick to measure).  I can
press a 'reset' button which makes the MCLR go down to 0v temporarily.

Does anyone know of anything I could try next.  The hardware did run until I
'erased' it.  I am stuck.

Best Regards

Alex Rogers



Please can anyone help?  I want to get back into Pic programming after a
couple of years doing other things.  I got my pic programmer our of the loft
and have tried to get it working.  In the meantime, of course, I know have a
different PC and I've lost the software to program with.

Does anyone recognise my programmer?  It is called a Pic Tutor v2.   I have
put a picture of it at http://www.smartcti.com/pictutor.jpg . Can anyone help?  I
have tried Tait (using 'quick and dirty style') and a couple of other
programmers but still can't work it out.

When I fired it up, I still had my 16F84 with a program on it which worked
(lights blinked, etc.)  I have now managed to 'blank' the chip so it doesn't
do anything!  I have tried a new chip, a 16F84A, but still no good.

Alex


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2006\01\12@072843 by Shawn Wilton

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>
> Does anyone know of anything I could try next.  The hardware did run until
> I
> 'erased' it.  I am stuck.



How about a more up to date board?  :-)  I'm sure Olin will pop in to this
thread in about 1:30 and suggest one of his...


--


Shawn Wilton (b9 Systems)
http://black9.com

2006\01\12@075209 by Jinx

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> Does anyone know of anything I could try next

Have Magenta no s/w they recommend - surely they'd
have something archived ? Or maybe they could point you
at a past customer. Even if they aren't using it, they should
have all the s/w you need

Is your PC "too good" for it now ? For example I've got
old programmers that run on a 386 (DOS or Win 3.11)
but not on a 486 or better, even in DOS. The timing is all
wrong on faster machines



2006\01\12@100958 by henrik

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Hi

I think wath you need is here



http://www.epemag.wimborne.co.uk/downloads.html



Kind regards

  Henrik Schack




{Quote hidden}

> -

2006\01\12@134725 by Howard Winter

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Alex,

On Thu, 12 Jan 2006 09:11:31 -0000, Alex Rogers wrote:

> Please can anyone help?  I want to get back into Pic programming after a
> couple of years doing other things.  I got my pic programmer our of the loft
> and have tried to get it working.  In the meantime, of course, I know have a
> different PC and I've lost the software to program with.
>
> Does anyone recognise my programmer?  It is called a Pic Tutor v2.   I have
> put a picture of it at http://www.smartcti.com/pictutor.jpg . Can anyone help?  I
> have tried Tait (using 'quick and dirty style') and a couple of other
> programmers but still can't work it out.

I don't know where you got the "v2" from - it's a PIC Tutor! :-)  It was one of John Becker's designs,
published in Everyday Practical Electronics (EPE) in about 1998.  As you have found out, Magenta produced the
kits - they still have them in their current advert in EPE, incidentally!  It went with a series of articles
(PIC Tutorial), however there was a second Tutorial series in 2003, and the "Toolkit" series of hardware
appeared to go with it (it got as far as v3), which handles 8, 18, 28 and 40-pin PICs.

> When I fired it up, I still had my 16F84 with a program on it which worked
> (lights blinked, etc.)  I have now managed to 'blank' the chip so it doesn't
> do anything!  I have tried a new chip, a 16F84A, but still no good.

The programming part of the Tutor board is a Tait-style parallel port programmer, so you'll need software that
is able to handle that - what you have is probably too old and doesn't know about the -A version of the '84.  
Have a look at the EPE web site.  To be honest, it's well out of date now, and in my opinion you need to think
about something more up to date, although EPE do have an online chat forum where you could ask for help.

As an aside, I hate the names they used for these things!  My mind works on initial letters for some reason,
and I find it really hard to remember which is which of the Tutor, Toolkit, the magazines's 2 Tutorial series,
and the Tutorial software that they sell, not to mention the Teach-in!  :-)  I once stopped reading a novel
after a few pages because the author had used the same initial (D) for every character's name, and I just
couldn't follow it at all...

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2006\01\12@175023 by Alex Rogers

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Hi Howard

>>Does anyone recognise my programmer?  It is called a Pic Tutor v2.   I
have put a picture of it at http://www.smartcti.com/pictutor.jpg . Can anyone help

>I don't know where you got the "v2" from - it's a PIC Tutor! :-)  It was
one of John Becker's designs, published in Everyday Practical Electronics
(EPE) in about 1998.  As you have found out, Magenta produced the kits -
they still have them in their current advert in EPE, incidentally!  It went
with a series of articles (PIC Tutorial), however there was a >second
Tutorial series in 2003, and the "Toolkit" series of hardware appeared to go
with it (it got as far as v3), which handles 8, 18, 28 and 40-pin PICs.

>The programming part of the Tutor board is a Tait-style parallel port
programmer, so you'll need software that is able to handle that - what you
have is probably too old and doesn't know about the -A version of the '84.  
Have a look at the EPE web site.  To be honest, it's well out of date now,
and in my opinion you need to think about something more up to date,
although EPE do have an online chat forum where you could ask for help.

On the back it says 'Pic Tutor v2.1'. I'd still rather get it working, even
if it takes something simple like adding a few extra wires for the extra
pins that newer programmers seem to have.  I have checked most things now,
I'm just wondering if the problem is 'timing' because I don't have yet any
of the extra pins connected, just MCLR, DB7, DB6, Vss, Vdd.  So is it as
simple as connecting lines for 'reading' and trying to use it is as TOPIC2,
etc?

Alternatively, I am thinking about buying a new board. Something that can
allow in-situ programming, can program the the 16F- and the 18F- and has on
board keys and leds so that I try out my designs.  I'm happy to build it
myself, but would prefer to buy it working, ;-)

Can anyone recommend something suitable?

Alex


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2006\01\12@180920 by Jinx

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> Alternatively, I am thinking about buying a new board

> Can anyone recommend something suitable?

Quite a few PIC programmers for sale on http://www.ebay.co.uk
(even a Magenta 880 !!), a selection to suit all budgets

I've used a PICStart Plus for a long time, and although it's a
tad slow (as in glacier-creeping-down-a-valley ? Well, not
quite that slow), it's reliable and has Microchip support. But
I would maybe like a second programmer one day. I've
slightly followed the threads on programmers and would
probably go for one of Olin Lathrop's

http://www.embedinc.com/products/index.htm

Whenever possible I always buy the best tools I can afford,
it pays off in the long run if you're serious. The PS+ was quite
expensive at the time I bought it, compared with the low-parts
count DIY programmers of the day


2006\01\12@191007 by Andre Abelian

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Alex,

Good choice welcome back.
what's wrong with picstart+ programmer?
1. Life time warranty
2. firmware update is available on time
3. programs almost all pics
4. has case
5. excellent tech support
6. maybe more

Andre



Alex Rogers wrote:

{Quote hidden}

2006\01\13@020335 by Wouter van Ooijen

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> Good choice welcome back.
> what's wrong with picstart+ programmer?
> 1. Life time warranty
> 2. firmware update is available on time
> 3. programs almost all pics
> 4. has case
> 5. excellent tech support
> 6. maybe more

I won't argue with the good points, but there are some wrongs too:
1. serial only, does not work well with USB
2. MPLAB only, no command line support
3. (does not work on Linux - I am not sure)?
4. slow
5. not well suited to ISCP

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2006\01\13@022654 by Chen Xiao Fan

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> -----Original Message-----
> From: .....piclist-bouncesKILLspamspam.....mit.edu
> [EraseMEpiclist-bouncesspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTmit.edu] On Behalf Of Wouter van Ooijen
>Andre Abelian wrote:
>> what's wrong with picstart+ programmer?
>> 1. Life time warranty
>> 2. firmware update is available on time

The updates is not as fast as MPLAB ICD2. It takes them
quite some time to support 18F2550/4550 USB PIC for the PS+.

>> 3. programs almost all pics
Not yet the dsPICs. MPLAB ICD2 supports dsPICs.

>> 4. has case
>> 5. excellent tech support
>> 6. maybe more

I've never used the PS+ even though I've seen people using it
and like it very much. So I think it is a good choice but might
not be as good as MPLAB ICD2 which doubles as a debugger and
supports almost all Flash PICs. Anyway OTP PICs are not so
popular any more.

> I won't argue with the good points, but there are some wrongs too:
> 1. serial only, does not work well with USB
> 2. MPLAB only, no command line support

There is a command line program picp from Jeff Post under
Windows and Linux
http://home.pacbell.net/theposts/picmicro

> 3. (does not work on Linux - I am not sure)?

picp supports Linux, Windows and Mac OS X.

> 4. slow
> 5. not well suited to ISCP
>

In my opinion, MPLAB ICD2 makes a better choice than PS+. If
the price of the original ICD2 is too high then the clones can
be considered. If the clones are still too high, then Microchip
PICkit 2 or Wouter's Wisp628A can be considered.

Regards,
Xiaofan

2006\01\13@053903 by Bill & Pookie

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the first thing to do might be to check if you can upload a hex file to it.
Assemble a very small program making sure the right device is specified and
try uploading it.  then look at the chip to see if it got it.  and try
verifying data.
Don't worry about what the small program does,  just that a few instructions
assemble and create a hex file.

Bill
{Original Message removed}

2006\01\13@065231 by olin piclist

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Alex Rogers wrote:
> Alternatively, I am thinking about buying a new board. Something that
> can allow in-situ programming, can program the the 16F- and the 18F-
> and has on board keys and leds so that I try out my designs.  I'm
> happy to build it myself, but would prefer to buy it working, ;-)
>
> Can anyone recommend something suitable?

My QuickProto-01 (http://www.embedinc.com/products) might be of interest to
you.  The programming lines are brought out on a RJ-12 jack, it works with
the standard 28 pin footprint of the 16F and 18F families, has 8 LED
indicators with separate LEDs for high and low, integrated power supplies, a
generous breadboard area, and a few other niceties.  See the web page for
details.

You will need a separate programmer or debugger (like the ICD2).


******************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, (978) 742-9014.  #1 PIC
consultant in 2004 program year.  http://www.embedinc.com/products

2006\01\13@074005 by Howard Winter

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On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 08:03:34 +0100, Wouter van Ooijen wrote:

> > Good choice welcome back.
> > what's wrong with picstart+ programmer?
> > 1. Life time warranty
> > 2. firmware update is available on time
> > 3. programs almost all pics
> > 4. has case
> > 5. excellent tech support
> > 6. maybe more
>
> I won't argue with the good points, but there are some wrongs too:
> 1. serial only, does not work well with USB
> 2. MPLAB only, no command line support
> 3. (does not work on Linux - I am not sure)?
> 4. slow
> 5. not well suited to ISCP

And:
6.  It's just a programmer - what the OP has now, and what he's looking for, is an *experimenter* board,
which as well as programming the PIC has switches and LEDs on it, so that learning and experimenting can be
performed with the PIC in place.

It's not cheap, but the MikroElektronika "EasyPIC3" has more equipment on the board than you could shake a
stick at (if that's your idea of a good time!) and copes will all DIP pincounts from 8 to 40 except 20.  It's
sold in Britain here:  
http://www.breadboarding.co.uk/Merchant2/4.13/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=1&Product_Code=EASYPIC3

Alternatively, since he's already in contact with Magenta, for half the cost of the EasyPIC3 he could get the
built-&-tested later replacement for the board he has: http://www.magenta2000.co.uk/kits/880.htm (OK that's
the kit, I can't find the built one on their web site, but it is in their magazine advert) especially since
this goes with the 2003 tutorial series in EPE magazine.  

The thing I didn't like about that, though, was that John Becker used a strange dialect of PIC assembler
(TASM, I think) which will be confusing when the OP moves out of the tutorial and into the Real World...  also
as he isn't a professional programmer he doesn't have the attitude to creating maintainable code that (IMHO)
should be instilled in anyone new to programming.  But since Olin hasn't written a tutorial for beginners,
they have to make do with what's out there!  :-)  

John McDonough's online course may be a better bet: http://www.amqrp.org/elmer160/lessons/  especially as it's
based around MPLAB, rather than John Becker's home-grown development environment.

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2006\01\13@095803 by Alex Rogers

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Hi Howard

Spot on, I'm looking for an experimenter board.  I've already written some
programs in Pic Ide (really cool) and I want to try them out.

Thanks for the 'EasyPic3' suggestion.  I'd not seen this yet, and if I keep
it going I might get one.  It looks cool.

In the meantime, I probably will get something simpler like the Magenta.

Alex

{Original Message removed}

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