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'[PIC] PICs and USB'
2004\09\13@224059 by craig

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Hi all,

I would like to create a very simple circuit that takes input from a 4-way
joystick and a handful of buttons (think arcade cabinet) and converts that
to a USB packet (1.1 or 2.0 - I don't mind) which gets sent to the PC
where it will be treated as input from a normal USB joystick.

I suspect that I could buy something like this off-the-shelf, but I want
to develop my PIC programming skills, so am keen to build it myself so I
understand the whole process.  Googling around, I see that several others
have done a similar thing using the Microchip PIC16C745.  Is that the
right chip for me?  Are there others I should consider?

My requirements are very simple... accept input from up to a dozen
switches (and maybe a couple of POTs) and convert to a USB joystick
message.  I have no qualms about writing the microcode in assembler (I am
a software developer by trade) and I am reasonably competent with a
soldering iron, but other than than that, I have never programmed a PIC
before.

Any suggestions or advice would be much appreciated.  Googling for PIC
programmers drowns me with options... do I need anything special for this
Microchip PIC?  Many thanks...

--
Craig Edwards

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2004\09\13@230138 by Chetan Bhargava

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Here is the article that tells you how to do it :-)

http://www.joystiq.com/entry/7817137582525561/



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<.....craigKILLspamspam@spam@haenterprises.com.au> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2004\09\13@234605 by Wesley Moore

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There is lots of useful information available in the Microchip site,
including sample PIC code that implements a HID device (which is what
you are talking about). This link should give you a decent start:
http://tinyurl.com/3zklm

You don't need a particularly special programmer. The PIC you will want to
use is  PIC16C745/65, data sheet here:
http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/DeviceDoc/41124c.pdf

Wes

On Tue, Sep 14, 2004 at 12:37:49PM +1000, craigspamKILLspamhaenterprises.com.au wrote:
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2004\09\14@035327 by Jan-Erik Soderholm

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craig@haenterprises.com.au wrote :

> I would like to create a very simple circuit that takes input
> from a 4-way joystick and a handful of buttons (think arcade
> cabinet) and converts that to a USB packet (1.1 or 2.0 - I
> don't mind) which gets sent to the PC where it will be treated
> as input from a normal USB joystick.

Hi.
Have you thought of getting a (used) normal game hand-console.
Strip of the hardware and use the electronics as your interface.
Connect your own pots and switches to this and let the electronics
handle the USB-stuff...

Mostly soldering iron stuff and no programming :-)

Regards,
Jan-Erik.
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2004\09\14@041000 by Alan B. Pearce
face picon face
>I suspect that I could buy something like this
>off-the-shelf, but I want to develop my PIC
>programming skills, so am keen to build it myself
>so I understand the whole process.  Googling around,
>I see that several others have done a similar thing
>using the Microchip PIC16C745.  Is that the right
>chip for me?  Are there others I should consider?

At the moment it is the only chip in the PIC line using USB, and Microchip
have a number of technical notes on using it as a keyboard, mouse and
joystick interface. However it has a downside in that it is only available
as OTP plastic package or windowed UV erasable EPROM, so development of code
is not the easiest unless you have a suitable UV lamp, or large budget to
buy numbers of OTP chips.

However you may be better off waiting for the new 18F chip announced
recently which has USB capability. Still download and absorb the information
in the technical notes for the 16C745 as it will give you a good grounding
on the USB side of things.

Other possibilities do exist. There are a number of 8051 based USB chips
around, notably from Texas Instruments. I am not sure what Cypress
Semiconductor have available, but Andrew warren may chime in and give advice
there. However availability of these families to hobbyists may not be good.
This is one area that Microchip is good at.

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2004\09\14@041610 by Craig Edwards

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On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 20:01:35 -0700, Chetan Bhargava <EraseMEcbhargavaspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTgmail.com>  
wrote:
> Here is the article that tells you how to do it :-)
>
> http://www.joystiq.com/entry/7817137582525561/

Thanks for the link.  That is very similar to what I am trying to  
achieve...  however, for me, one of the key objectives is actually going  
through the process of writing the PIC code, burning the chip, debugging,  
etc.  I'm probably not going to learn too much by ordering the kit that  
the article mentions :-)

I notice that they also say that the kit comes with the PIC16C745... I  
guess that is yet another vote for that chip.  Thanks again for your  
thoughts.

--
Craig Edwards
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2004\09\14@041610 by Craig Edwards

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On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 03:46:04 +0000, Wesley Moore <wmoorespamspam_OUTfreeshell.org>  
wrote:
> There is lots of useful information available in the Microchip site,
> including sample PIC code that implements a HID device (which is what
> you are talking about). This link should give you a decent start:
> http://tinyurl.com/3zklm
>
> You don't need a particularly special programmer. The PIC you will want  
> to
> use is  PIC16C745/65, data sheet here:
> http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/DeviceDoc/41124c.pdf

Thanks for the reply.  It looks like the 16C745 is definitely the way to  
go.  As this is my first foray (and I can't imagine that anything will  
work on my first attempt), I will probably get the /JW so that I don't  
have to wreck a zillion of the OTP chips.  I presume that is a reasonable  
way to attack it?  Thanks again for your advice.

--
Craig Edwards
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2004\09\14@083219 by Craig Edwards

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On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 09:53:26 +0200 (CEST), Jan-Erik Soderholm  
<@spam@jan-erik.soderholmKILLspamspamtelia.com> wrote:
> Have you thought of getting a (used) normal game hand-console.
> Strip of the hardware and use the electronics as your interface.
> Connect your own pots and switches to this and let the electronics
> handle the USB-stuff...
>
> Mostly soldering iron stuff and no programming :-)

Yeah... that was my original plan, but when I started reading up about it,  
it rekindled my interest in PICs.  So, as it turns out, it is mostly the  
programming part that is interesting me :-)

--
Craig Edwards
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2004\09\14@084324 by Craig Edwards

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On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 09:11:44 +0100, Alan B. Pearce <KILLspamA.B.PearceKILLspamspamrl.ac.uk>  
wrote:
> However it has a downside in that it is only available
> as OTP plastic package or windowed UV erasable EPROM, so development of  
> code
> is not the easiest unless you have a suitable UV lamp, or large budget to
> buy numbers of OTP chips.

Yes... I am currently trying to determine what I require with the UV  
lamp.  It seems the right way to go when I am learning (and thus will  
likely have many writes).   I just need to figure out what I need.

> However you may be better off waiting for the new 18F chip announced
> recently which has USB capability. Still download and absorb the  
> information
> in the technical notes for the 16C745 as it will give you a good  
> grounding
> on the USB side of things.

Thanks for the pointer... I didn't know that the 18F had been announced.  
In the meantime, I will likely still play with the 16C to get my eye in  
(so to speak).

> Other possibilities do exist. There are a number of 8051 based USB chips
> around, notably from Texas Instruments. I am not sure what Cypress
> Semiconductor have available, but Andrew warren may chime in and give  
> advice
> there. However availability of these families to hobbyists may not be  
> good.

Thanks for the alternatives... I will check them out.  It does seem as  
though the Microchip option is the most widely accepted and readily  
available (which I guess is what I wanted to check with my original  
post).  Thanks again.

--
Craig Edwards
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2004\09\14@085119 by Ake Hedman

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Craig Edwards wrote:

>> However it has a downside in that it is only available
>> as OTP plastic package or windowed UV erasable EPROM, so development
>> of  code
>> is not the easiest unless you have a suitable UV lamp, or large budget to
>> buy numbers of OTP chips.
>
>
> Yes... I am currently trying to determine what I require with the UV  
> lamp.  It seems the right way to go when I am learning (and thus will  
> likely have many writes).   I just need to figure out what I need.
>
Also check that your programmer can handle the chip. I have some different flavors non of which recognize the chip.

Regards
/Ake

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eurosource, Brattbergavägen 17, 820 50 LOS, Sweden
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2004\09\14@095201 by Mike Hord

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Burn 'n Crash with EPROM sucks bad enough as it is, but it's even
worse if you only have 1 chip.  Buy at least two; probably 3 or more.

My Warp-13 (as do most others, I expect) can program the C7x5's.
They are also (occasionally) available as samples from uChip (but
let's not have a huge discussion about samples again, okay?),
although I had to wait some months to receive my samples of the
765 last year.

Mike H.

> Also check that your programmer can handle the chip. I have some
> different flavors non of which recognize the chip.
>
> Regards
> /Ake
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2004\09\14@111104 by Chetan Bhargava

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> Other possibilities do exist. There are a number of 8051 based USB chips
> around, notably from Texas Instruments. I am not sure what Cypress
> Semiconductor have available, but Andrew warren may chime in and give advice
> there. However availability of these families to hobbyists may not be good.
> This is one area that Microchip is good at.

Cypress has EZ-USB, AN2131SC. It is a RAM based device where you
download your code into the RAM and run it from there. Very easy code
development.

--

Chetan Bhargava
http://www.bhargavaz.net
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2004\09\14@173243 by olin_piclist

face picon face
Mike Hord wrote:
> Burn 'n Crash with EPROM sucks bad enough as it is, but it's even
> worse if you only have 1 chip.  Buy at least two; probably 3 or more.

Back when I did most PIC development with UV erasable EEPROM devices, I
always made sure I had 8 of each type around.  That allowed efficient use of
the eraser and there was always a blank chip around when I wanted to try a
new version.  I never managed to outrun the erase pipeline, so effectively
it was as fast a today's flash.  3 chips would definitely not have been
enough to allow programming without waiting.


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2004\09\14@193440 by Andrew Warren

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Alan B. Pearce <RemoveMEpiclistTakeThisOuTspammit.edu> wrote:

> There are a number of 8051 based USB chips around, notably from
> Texas Instruments. I am not sure what Cypress Semiconductor have
> available, but Andrew warren may chime in and give advice there.

Most of the world's mice have one of Cypress's USB microcontrollers
inside; we have mouse and keyboard reference-designs available on our
website, and maybe a joystick/gamepad, too.

If we have a joystick reference design, it'd be written for one of
our low-speed (1.5 Mbit/sec) parts that use a CPU called the M8;
there are also full-speed (12-Mbit/sec) and high-speed (480 Mbit/sec)
USB microcontrollers based on the 8051.

The original poster seemed to want to learn PIC programming, though,
and it would be dumb to throw a Cypress part AND a PIC into a
joystick design that could really be handled by the Cypress part
alone... Plus, this sounds like a one-off project, not something that
will be built in any kind of volume... So I guess the PIC16C745 is
the only choice, even though it isn't the part that most people would
use in a real product.  

-Andy

=== Andrew Warren -- spamBeGoneaiwspamBeGonespamcypress.com
=== Principal Design Engineer
=== Cypress Semiconductor Corporation
===
=== Opinions expressed above do not
=== necessarily represent those of
=== Cypress Semiconductor Corporation

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2004\09\14@222216 by Harold Hallikainen

face picon face
Another possibility is the Silicon Labs CP2101
(http://www.silabs.com/products/microcontroller/interface.asp). I'm
currently designing it into a product with a PIC. It's kinda like the FTD
part but does not require all the other parts around it (eeprom, etc.).

Harold


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2004\09\14@235115 by Peter Johansson

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Alan B. Pearce writes:

> At the moment it is the only chip in the PIC line using USB, and Microchip
> have a number of technical notes on using it as a keyboard, mouse and
> joystick interface. However it has a downside in that it is only available
> as OTP plastic package or windowed UV erasable EPROM, so development of code
> is not the easiest unless you have a suitable UV lamp, or large budget to
> buy numbers of OTP chips.

Given the relative cheapness of this chip (I think it's in the
five-buck range) and the fact that it is DIP, it would *seem* that a
"canned" program that provides simple serial and/or parallel I/O would
be a real boon to the entry-level developer.  Sure, it would mean at
least *two* chips in the finished product, but this is far less of a
hassle when you consider the programming involved to get everything
onto one chip and that you wouldn't need to pop for an eprom eraser.
Is anyone aware of code (both on the PC and PIC end) that implements
this?

As an aside, has anyone ever tried to erase an EPROM with an UV led?
Do they even make UV LEDs with a short enough wavelength and enough
power to erase a PIC?  I could imagine a single LED focused directly
onto the chip doing the trick *if* the above conditions are met.
Certainly not an industrial solution, but might be a good hack for the
hobbyist.

> However you may be better off waiting for the new 18F chip announced
> recently which has USB capability. Still download and absorb the information
> in the technical notes for the 16C745 as it will give you a good grounding
> on the USB side of things.

Does anyone have any idea of the release date of the 18F-series USB
chip?  Alternatively, are there any other inexpensive DIP-based
solutions?  I'm aware of the FTDI SIMM-on-DIP developer packages from
Parallax (etc) but they are all in the $30+ range.  Ideally, I'd like
to find a DIP solution in the sub $10 range.

-p.
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2004\09\15@023227 by Ake Hedman

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Olin Lathrop wrote:

> Mike Hord wrote:
>
>>Burn 'n Crash with EPROM sucks bad enough as it is, but it's even
>>worse if you only have 1 chip.  Buy at least two; probably 3 or more.
>
>
> Back when I did most PIC development with UV erasable EEPROM devices, I
> always made sure I had 8 of each type around.  That allowed efficient use of
> the eraser and there was always a blank chip around when I wanted to try a
> new version.  I never managed to outrun the erase pipeline, so effectively
> it was as fast a today's flash.  3 chips would definitely not have been
> enough to allow programming without waiting.
>
I remember a time (1984 I think). The company only had one EPROM burner and it was located in a central place (the server room of course). For each iteration I first had to upload the code through a serial link to the machine where the EPROM programmer was located which took some minutes. Then I had to walk through the office to the server room and put in an EPROM, wait several minutes while the EPROM got programmed. Walk back. Put in the EPROM on the board. Test, notice the stupid little error I did, code, assemble (also tool a while) and do the same thing all over again again. All the time having to remember to erase as many EPROMS needed to be able to continue the process.

The strange thing is that I use almost the same time for my projects today as I did then. Strange when you think about it....

/Ake




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2004\09\15@035031 by Craig Edwards

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On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 16:38:00 -0700, Andrew Warren <aiwEraseMEspam.....cypress.com> wrote:
> If we have a joystick reference design, it'd be written for one of
> our low-speed (1.5 Mbit/sec) parts that use a CPU called the M8;
> there are also full-speed (12-Mbit/sec) and high-speed (480 Mbit/sec)
> USB microcontrollers based on the 8051.

Thanks for the specifics.

> The original poster seemed to want to learn PIC programming, though,
> and it would be dumb to throw a Cypress part AND a PIC into a
> joystick design that could really be handled by the Cypress part
> alone... Plus, this sounds like a one-off project, not something that
> will be built in any kind of volume... So I guess the PIC16C745 is
> the only choice, even though it isn't the part that most people would
> use in a real product.

I may have come across as wanting to learn PIC programming, but that was  
only because the PIC seemed (to me) like the most likely candidate.  I  
don't have a particular preference as to the underlying technology as long  
as it is easy to program, isn't overkill for my little problem, and is  
readily available.  Looks like both the Cypress and Microchip products  
satisfy these criteria.  Thanks for the pointer...  I am downloading specs  
as I type.

--
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2004\09\15@045113 by Andrew Warren

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Craig Edwards <EraseMEpiclistspammit.edu> wrote:

> I may have come across as wanting to learn PIC programming, but that
> was only because the PIC seemed (to me) like the most likely
> candidate. I don't have a particular preference as to the underlying
> technology as long as it is easy to program, isn't overkill for my
> little problem, and is readily available.  Looks like both the Cypress
> and Microchip products satisfy these criteria.

   Well, my bias toward the Cypress M8 parts for this particular project
   should be pretty obvious... But if you plan to do non-USB projects in
   the future, learning the PIC at some point would be an excellent
   idea.

   The PICs are, after all, the top-selling 8-bit microcontrollers in
   the world, and while Microchip might not have the best parts for
   certain specialized applications, they've certainly done a great job
   building microcontrollers (and dev tools, and the support
   infrastructure) that are ideal for all the other general-purpose
   apps.  Besides, the PIC developer community is much larger and more
   accessible than that of the M8; there's nothing like the PICLIST for
   Cypress parts.

   Of course, learning one of Cypress's M8-based USB chips will also
   prepare you to use our PSoC chips (http://www.cypressmicro.com), and
   you might find that to be a lot of fun, too.

   -Andy

=== Andrew Warren - RemoveMEaiwEraseMEspamEraseMEcypress.com
===
=== Principal Design Engineer
=== Cypress Semiconductor Corporation


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2004\09\15@055313 by Jan-Erik Soderholm

face picon face
Harold Hallikainen wrote :

> Another possibility is the Silicon Labs CP2101
> (http://www.silabs.com/products/microcontroller/interface.asp).
> It's kinda like the FTD part but does not require all the other
> parts around it  (eeprom, etc.).

But comes only in what's called a "28-Pin MLP" package.
Not particular hobbyist-friendly...

Jan-Erik.
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2004\09\15@102645 by Mike Hord

picon face
Yes, but 16C745 singles from Digikey = $11.45.  8 units could be a bit
out of the OP's price range.  :-(

3 is a good number because it is within EVERYONE'S price range; free
as a sample batch.

You're right, though.  I've done very little burn and crash with EPROM.
I'm a spoiled brat who first learned in college on a 16F876.

Mike H.


On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 17:32:40 -0400, Olin Lathrop
<RemoveMEolin_piclistspam_OUTspamKILLspamembedinc.com> wrote:
> Mike Hord wrote:
> > Burn 'n Crash with EPROM sucks bad enough as it is, but it's even
> > worse if you only have 1 chip.  Buy at least two; probably 3 or more.
>
> Back when I did most PIC development with UV erasable EEPROM devices, I
> always made sure I had 8 of each type around.  That allowed efficient use of
> the eraser and there was always a blank chip around when I wanted to try a
> new version.  I never managed to outrun the erase pipeline, so effectively
> it was as fast a today's flash.  3 chips would definitely not have been
> enough to allow programming without waiting.
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2004\09\15@105016 by Harold Hallikainen

face picon face
Yep, it IS really small! Luckily I have people here that can deal with
parts I can't even see...

Harold

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2004\09\16@001449 by Charles Craft

picon face
Microchip doesn't sample the JW EPROM parts.


-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Hord <RemoveMEmike.hordTakeThisOuTspamspamgmail.com>
Sent: Sep 15, 2004 10:26 AM
To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <EraseMEpiclistspamspamspamBeGonemit.edu>
Subject: Re: [PIC] PICs and USB

Yes, but 16C745 singles from Digikey = $11.45.  8 units could be a bit
out of the OP's price range.  :-(

3 is a good number because it is within EVERYONE'S price range; free
as a sample batch.

You're right, though.  I've done very little burn and crash with EPROM.
I'm a spoiled brat who first learned in college on a 16F876.

Mike H.


On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 17:32:40 -0400, Olin Lathrop
<RemoveMEolin_piclistKILLspamspamembedinc.com> wrote:
> Mike Hord wrote:
> > Burn 'n Crash with EPROM sucks bad enough as it is, but it's even
> > worse if you only have 1 chip.  Buy at least two; probably 3 or more.
>
> Back when I did most PIC development with UV erasable EEPROM devices, I
> always made sure I had 8 of each type around.  That allowed efficient use of
> the eraser and there was always a blank chip around when I wanted to try a
> new version.  I never managed to outrun the erase pipeline, so effectively
> it was as fast a today's flash.  3 chips would definitely not have been
> enough to allow programming without waiting.
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2004\09\16@092820 by Mike Hord

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On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 00:14:49 -0400 (GMT-04:00), Charles Craft
<chuckseaSTOPspamspamspam_OUTmindspring.com> wrote:
> Microchip doesn't sample the JW EPROM parts.

Maybe that's a good sign, pointing towards impending release of the 18F
flash-based USB part.

Or maybe it simply means they don't have any on hand at the moment to
sample.

Either way, unfortunate for the OP.  I assure you, however, that at in the
past, they did, and I expect that at some point in the future they likely
will again.

Mike H.
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2004\09\16@101413 by Jan-Erik Soderholm

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Mike Hord wrote :

> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 00:14:49 -0400 (GMT-04:00), Charles Craft
> <spamBeGonechuckseaSTOPspamspamEraseMEmindspring.com> wrote:
> >
> > Microchip doesn't sample the JW EPROM parts.
>
> Maybe that's a good sign, pointing towards impending release
> of the 18F flash-based USB part.

Hi.
I'm not 100% sure, but do MC sample *any* JW parts ?

Jan-Erik.
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