Post by thread:[PIC] PICKIT 2 (was PICKit1 & PIC18F2550)

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'[PIC] PICKIT 2 (was PICKit1 & PIC18F2550)'
2005\07\01@204026 by Mark Rages

On 7/1/05, WH Tan <spam_OUTwhsiungTakeThisOuTtm.net.my> wrote: > Hello, > > I recall vaguely that someone has written about replacing the PICKit1 > controller with a PIC18F USB controller. Anyway I can't remember any > result mentioned here. > > Has anyone done it? > > I'm on my way doing this and I believe I'm just a step away from > completing it. I would like to discuss with anyone who did/do the > same. > WH, Isn't the pinout different? I notice the ship date for the Pickit 2 on buy.microchip.com is August 12. Part #DV164120 The Pickit 2 will already come with a full-speed USB device. I think this means a flash part... I'm still waiting to see if MC releases firmware source for the programmer chip like they did for Pickit 1. PicKit 2 supports 8,14, and 20 pin parts. I guess I should order one this weekend and get started on Linux support for it. However, estimated arrival date for my first child is August 3, so I may not have much free time when it comes! Regards, Mark markrages@gmail -- You think that it is a secret, but it never has been one. - fortune cookie

2005\07\01@213326 by WH Tan

Hello Mark, I didn't notice about PICkit2. I was talking about transforming PICkit1 into using PIC18F part. Anyway I took a look at Microchip site. Didn't find any documents describing it. The only information I got is some description on buy.microchip. > Isn't the pinout different? If you mean the basic pin functions, I think it's same. But of course PIC18 parts have more functions built into it. For example ICD2 debugging support, which PIC16C745 don't have. If you mean the design comparison of PICkit1 and PICkit2, yes, I'm not surprised as PIC18F are far superior than PIC16C! Actually I didn't own a real PICKit1. I built mine on a matrix board. Through the building process, I have decided to change some pinouts. Namely I used RB7, RB6 for ICD2 but PICkit1 uses it for some other purposes. > I notice the ship date for the Pickit 2 on buy.microchip.com is > August > 12. Part #DV164120 Yup, If I never done this, perhaps I would consider it :) > The Pickit 2 will already come with a full-speed USB device. I > think > this means a flash part... I'm still waiting to see if MC releases > firmware source for the programmer chip like they did for Pickit 1. Yes I think it's a flash part. And time will tell if they're going to release the source! :) > I guess I should order one this weekend and get started on Linux > support for it. However, estimated arrival date for my first child > is > August 3, so I may not have much free time when it comes! Congratulations Mark. And happy birthday to him/her! Best regards, WH Tan

2005\07\04@195455 by Chen Xiao Fan

Great to heat that. Now it is finally out. I heard this one a year ago on the Microchip Forum (not formally named as PICKit 2 then). I will try to get one as soon as possible. ---------------------------------------------- Xiaofan Chen R&D Engineer, Photoelectric Sensor Development Pepperl+Fuchs Singapore http://www.pepperl-fuchs.com Signals for the world of automation --------------------------------------------

2005\07\04@204937 by Chen Xiao Fan

I think no one has done it even though I raised this proposition quite some time ago. I think it is a worthy effort even though PICKit 2 is on the horizon. I will be very much interested in your design. 1) ASM would be better. C18 is not cheap and the student version has some limitations. However since you have done it in C18, it may be not necessary to port it to ASM if there is too much effort involved. 2) PID control: again ASM and you have done it already, right? 3) ICSP: again ASM. It is the common language for the PIClisters. :) Actually I do not see many discussion for C (including C18) here. I have some more suggestions. 1) Is it possible to implement Olin's protocol? The tricky part is that Olin's host program will not work since this one is based on USB. 2) Have you written the host program? It would be wonderful if it is written in a cross platform language like c or python. 3) PICkit 1 is using a 6MHz ceramic oscillator and you need to use 4Mhz oscillators (or 8Mhz, etc) for the 18F USB parts. Anyway since you do not really own a PICKit 1, it does not matter. Regards, Xiaofan ---------------------------------------------- Xiaofan Chen R&D Engineer, Photoelectric Sensor Development Pepperl+Fuchs Singapore http://www.pepperl-fuchs.com Signals for the world of automation -------------------------------------------- {Original Message removed}

2005\07\04@210515 by Mark Rages

On 7/4/05, Chen Xiao Fan <.....xiaofanKILLspam@spam@sg.pepperl-fuchs.com> wrote: {Quote hidden}> I think no one has done it even though I raised this proposition > quite some time ago. I think it is a worthy effort even though > PICKit 2 is on the horizon. I will be very much interested in your > design. > > 1) ASM would be better. C18 is not cheap and the student version > has some limitations. However since you have done it in C18, > it may be not necessary to port it to ASM if there is too much > effort involved. > 2) PID control: again ASM and you have done it already, right? > 3) ICSP: again ASM. It is the common language for the PIClisters. :) > Actually I do not see many discussion for C (including C18) here. > > I have some more suggestions. > 1) Is it possible to implement Olin's protocol? The tricky part > is that Olin's host program will not work since this one is based > on USB. > 2) Have you written the host program? It would be wonderful > if it is written in a cross platform language like c or python. > 3) PICkit 1 is using a 6MHz ceramic oscillator and you need to > use 4Mhz oscillators (or 8Mhz, etc) for the 18F USB parts. Anyway > since you do not really own a PICKit 1, it does not matter. > > > Regards, > Xiaofan I think the attraction of the Pickit is that it is "plug-and-play". If you already have another programmer to program the 18F2550 etc., then maybe you aren't as interested in the PicKit 1. I am hoping the PIckit 2 will be self-programmable or at least capable of programming the full speed USB parts. Then the beginner can get enhanced functionality with a software upgrade. Regards, Mark markrages@gmail -- You think that it is a secret, but it never has been one. - fortune cookie

2005\07\04@215051 by Chen Xiao Fan

It is plug-n-play and it is "cheap". It is also quite easy to build as well but one will need an ICD2 or similar to bootstrap the 18F2550. Actually for the chips it supports, I would prefer PICkit as a programmer than a ICD2. I strongly believe that PICKit 2 will be upgradeable through the USB bootloader. I would hope that they will release the firmware and host software source as soon as the product becomes available. I am quite sure that they will do this but I am not so sure how fast they will do it. The release of PICkit 2 will also confirm that new 16F (which will be the low end chip after they reduce the price of 18F and release 24Fxxx 16-bit chips) will be mostly 8/14/20 pins. Regards, Xiaofan {Original Message removed}

2005\07\04@225027 by Charles Craft

Here's hoping that someone attending the MASTERs brings back the roadmap to the futures. 8 pin 16F? Fact, rumor or wishful thinking? -------------------------------------------------------- The release of PICkit 2 will also confirm that new 16F (which will be the low end chip after they reduce the price of 18F and release 24Fxxx 16-bit chips) will be mostly 8/14/20 pins. Regards, Xiaofan

2005\07\04@235936 by Herbert Graf

On Mon, 2005-07-04 at 22:50 -0400, Charles Craft wrote: > Here's hoping that someone attending the MASTERs brings back the roadmap to the futures. > > 8 pin 16F? Fact, rumor or wishful thinking? Already here. The 12F629 and 12F675 are actually 16F parts in 8 pin packages. TTYL ----------------------------- Herbert's PIC Stuff: http://repatch.dyndns.org:8383/pic_stuff/

2005\07\05@000555 by Chen Xiao Fan

There are 8-pin 16Fs since I consider 12F629/675/635/683 as 16F in the sense that they are of the same architecture as the Mid-range 16Fs. They almost came out 8-pin PIC18 (I had the datasheets) 3 years back but somehow killed the product. Regards, Xiaofan -----Original Message----- From: Charles Craft [chuckseaKILLspammindspring.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 10:50 AM To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. Subject: RE: [PIC] PICKIT 2 (was PICKit1 & PIC18F2550) Here's hoping that someone attending the MASTERs brings back the roadmap to the futures. 8 pin 16F? Fact, rumor or wishful thinking? --------------------------------------------------------

2005\07\05@002308 by Charles Craft

Argghhhhhhhhhhhhhh $%%%^&$%^&#$ At the Atmel seminar I almost asked if they used a dart board for part numbering. Microchip can be almost as confusing but I tend to forget (forgive?) it. There are 16F parts with 12 bit cores and 12F parts with 14 bit cores. %-) The only absolute is 16 bit 18F parts and 18F parts only have 16 bit cores? {Original Message removed}

2005\07\05@044342 by WH Tan

Hi, After overnight of programming, at last the C18 USB framework, ASM PID control, ASM ICSP protocol (decided when I was starting to look into it last night) all seems to be integrated perfectly. I'm doing test with PIC12F675 and the devide ID & configuration fuses seem to be read correctly. For the time being, I'm using the VB program posted on Microchip website and Jan Axelson HID testing program (VC++, with some modification of course). For the time being, I'm doing this for fun. Anyway I own a full version C18. Yes the PID control is in ASM because not much porting job involved. Porting PIC16 instructions to PIC18 directly is far more simple than re-written it in C18! The parts that required much effort is to make use of the hardware multiplier to replace the software multiplier routines and rewritten some part to make use 'extra' PIC18 instructions. Regarding your suggestion: 1) Yes surely I will have a look into this matter soon. I'm just a beginner when come to ICSP! At the time I will stick with the protocol used by PICKit 1. Surely if Microchip decided to release thier new PICKit 2 source, which I think will be most likely to happen, then that will provide extra option for me :) 2) Not yet. And I plan it in VC++. 3) Regarding the crystal. Yes not a problem for me. I use 20MHz. Best regards, WH Tan {Original Message removed}

2005\07\05@045120 by WH Tan

Hi Mark, > I think the attraction of the Pickit is that it is "plug-and-play". > If you already have another programmer to program the 18F2550 etc., > then maybe you aren't as interested in the PicKit 1. I have ICD2! Still I'm interested in PICKit 1. To me PICKit 1 is not just a programmer. At least it's an USB tesing board. But the real down side is that PICKit 1 use PIC16C part. With the PIC18F falsh part, thing have change and that why I decided to build one. > I am hoping the PIckit 2 will be self-programmable or at least > capable > of programming the full speed USB parts. Then the beginner can get > enhanced functionality with a software upgrade. I bet Microchip will put the USB bootloader into it. If they don't still you can do it yourself! Not too difficult to implement if the source are available . Anyway you have to figure out how you are going to program the chip with a bootloader for the first time :) Best regards, WH Tan

2005\07\05@050453 by Chen Xiao Fan

Great to hear that you have done most of the job. Congratulations! You own a full version of C18 for fun! That is not small investment. :) VC++ may be great for the Windows platform, but it will be not cross-platform as Python and plain C. By the way, will you release your code one it is ready? ---------------------------------------------- Xiaofan Chen R&D Engineer, Photoelectric Sensor Development Pepperl+Fuchs Singapore http://www.pepperl-fuchs.com Signals for the world of automation -------------------------------------------- {Original Message removed}

2005\07\05@051044 by Chen Xiao Fan

Me too. I have ICD2 and yet I like the PICkit 1. But then I see that very few people would like to work with OTP parts or windowed EEPROM parts even though a lot of people here have the technical expertise to extend the PICkit 1. Now that PICKit 2 is on the horizon, more people will be willing to hack it to do more. And you are definitely doing the pioneer work. Regards, Xiaofan {Original Message removed}

2005\07\05@073217 by olin piclist

Charles Craft wrote: > 8 pin 16F? Fact, rumor or wishful thinking? Old news. See 12F629, 12F675 for example. ***************************************************************** Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts (978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com

2005\07\05@074318 by WH Tan

> By the way, will you release your code one it is ready? Sure. But it will be slow... until its functions are all tested. But if you want to see the code now, mail me offlist. I still have some hardware issues to settle... the waveform looks correct on scope but the PIC reads 0x3FCF instead of 0x3FFF... Still I confirm that's no bug in the read routine. I think it has something to do with the level of the waveform or overshot/undershot etc. > Now that PICKit 2 is on the horizon, more people will be willing to > hack it to do more. We will see how the PICKit 2 design... As far as PICKit 1 hardware is concerned, I see there is a problem if you want to extend its capability. Namely the Vpp output from the charge pump circuit. I have seen on my scope last night, it will raise to 12V then drop back in curve to somewhere slightly lower than 10V before up again after the PID makes the necessary correction. I think this happen because the firmware prepare the Vpp to 12V in advance before turning on the Vpp transistor. Anyway when it's loaded by the target PIC, a new adjustment needed and it takes time for the PID to perform. This will not be a problem for PIC12F675 as the Vpp range is Vdd+3.5V until 13.5V! I like the bus-powered USB product! The design of PICKit 1 is great to get 13.5V (and its level is controllable through the PID) out of the 5V from USB bus. Anyway if the PID controlled Vpp can't be improved, I see there is a very limited device, which can be supported. Anyway I'm not a hardware guru and am seeking for a solution... > And you are definitely doing the pioneer work. Well I don't think I am. I bet there must be someone out there doing the same... :) Best regards, WH Tan

2005\07\05@210124 by Chen Xiao Fan

I think the boost converter (it is not a charge pump) can be improved by the following ways. 1) Change R10 or R11 to a poti so that one can adjust the Vpp range. Different PICs have different Vpp ranges. 2) C4 may not be good enough due to higher ESR and the PID control is not fast enough so that you see the voltage drop. We can put big ceramic capacitors in parallel to replace C4 (47u, 25V) but we need to see if the supply stability is still there. 3) Over Voltage protection (like a zener) can be put after C4. Anyway Vpp consumes very little current. 4) The PID loop may be able to be tuned. I have not looked into it yet. Regards, Xiaofan {Original Message removed}

2005\07\06@135326 by WH Tan

Hi, Some replys to your suggestion: 1) I think this is unneccessary. The output voltage can be controlled by an internal register (Target - implemented in VppCntrl.asm). The real problem is the additional load that causes the momentary voltage drop. And I think this is talking point. See my answers next. 2) Yes, I think this worth a shot. I will try some experiments. 3) Good point. When testing a new hardware + firmware, I think the target PIC should get some protection against possible fault by the programmer :) 4) I think this is a valid point. I had been looking into this matter and found that there should be some rooms for improvement. The PID output 7-bit signed value. The set point for target Vpp is also a 7-bit value. Perhaps increase the bit number will improve the settlement time for the Vpp to reach its set point value (PID and hardware expert, please correct this if i'm wrong). This should not cause too much overhead to the controller with the hardware multiplier + it has double the speed of PIC16C745 + it has more instructions to support more efficient coding. However I will try not to increase the constant rate of the PID checking the feedback voltage. The reason is that I think it is not so good if the PID taking too much of the processor time. And the time that the PID's service is really needed is when the load change is too much (example when turning on Vpp transistor, and this is happening only several times during a programming cycle) and causing a great error from the set point voltage. When the set point voltage has been established and load change is almost none and the error is very small. 1 idea in my mind now is to implement variable frequency of the feedback sampling. For example increase the frequency of sampling before turning on Vpp transistor, then reduce it back to its original rate once the Vpp has settled down. Anyway I haven't really look into it yet. Thanks for the suggestions. Best regards, WH Tan {Original Message removed}

2005\07\07@215232 by Chen Xiao Fan

Another option for improvement of the PICkit 1 Vpp power generation is to use a separate small SMPS like the one inside ICD2. I have since measured the Vpp waveform of the ICD2 Vpp line and it is quite nice (not like PICkit 1). Based on a well circulated ICD2 clone circuit, the ICD2 Vpp generation is a boost (step-up) converter based on an OnSemi MC34063 (quite cheap), a 100uH inductor, a BAT85 (?) Schottky diode, a 47uF capacitor. To smooth the output voltage, it has employed another 10uH inductor and a 47uF capacitor. The feedback is a voltage divider consisting two resistor and a digital poti. The digital poti can be simply replaced by a analog poti if no automatic adjustment of Vpp is required. I have opened the original ICD2 and find it to be similarly built (or I should say the clone is following the original ICD2 design). Another option is to use a 10F20x, just like the one used in Olin's prototype board discussed sometime ago. Let us wait and see the design of PICkit 2. Regards, Xiaofan {Original Message removed}

2005\07\08@035629 by WH Tan

Hi Xiao Fan, Quite interesting alternatives. My testing board was built on a matrix board. Should not be a problem to add those suggestions to my experiments later. Not my top priority at the moment. I am excited by the progress so far. With a PIC12F675, it seems like performing well. I have written data to program memory + EEROM data and all read back correctly. My priority now is to keep playing with the board and see if I could add some enhancement to the command sets. For instance the command to change the Vpp...and perhaps looking into the chance to improve the PID. Not really must get a result from the latter. Just want to study a bit more about the PID. By the way, in the MPLAB project that I sent to you, I used 'retfie fast'. I was doing this to 'experience' how bad the silicon bug is with C18. You should not use return fast and put back the context saving code that I have commented out. Best regards, WH Tan PS: Are we share the same last name actually? {Original Message removed}

2005\07\08@160345 by WH Tan

Finally the informations are posted there... http://www.microchip.com/stellent/idcplg?IdcService=SS_GET_PAGE&nodeId=1406&dDocName=en023805 Best regards, WH Tan

2005\07\08@162522 by Mark Rages

On 7/8/05, WH Tan <.....whsiungKILLspam.....tm.net.my> wrote: > Finally the informations are posted there... > www.microchip.com/stellent/idcplg?IdcService=SS_GET_PAGE&nodeId=1406&dDocName=en023805 > Nice! Regards, Mark markrages@gmail -- You think that it is a secret, but it never has been one. - fortune cookie

2005\07\08@164735 by Mark Rages

On 7/8/05, Mark Rages <EraseMEmarkragesspam_OUTTakeThisOuTgmail.com> wrote: > On 7/8/05, WH Tan <whsiungspam_OUTtm.net.my> wrote: > > Finally the informations are posted there... > > www.microchip.com/stellent/idcplg?IdcService=SS_GET_PAGE&nodeId=1406&dDocName=en023805 > > So, in summary: - PIC18F2550 inside - Bootloader upgradeable - Schematics are given - Firmware source is not given. Yuck! - Programming is ICSP with optional daughterboard. - Target can use USB power or other power. PICKit 2 includes FETs to switch external power. Regards, Mark markrages@gmail -- You think that it is a secret, but it never has been one. - fortune cookie

2005\07\08@165052 by Mark Rages

On 7/8/05, Mark Rages <@spam@markragesKILLspamgmail.com> wrote: > > So, in summary: > > - PIC18F2550 inside > Also includes two 64K EEPROMs. Anyone want to speculate why? Regards, Mark markrages@gmail -- You think that it is a secret, but it never has been one. - fortune cookie

2005\07\08@172547 by Wouter van Ooijen

> Finally the informations are posted there... Interesting! Note the pushbutton (documented as 'currently no funtion') and the two 24LC512's. I can guess what they are for! Also note that the doc states 'able to program most flash chips', so it is aimed 'higher' than the Baseline Flash Programmer or the PicKit 1. But I see no price indication :( Wouter van Ooijen -- ------------------------------------------- Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl consultancy, development, PICmicro products docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu

2005\07\08@173027 by WH Tan

Hi Mark, Had you read about the push button! The user's guide says it's for triggering a function, which is not implemented currently. My guess is 2 x 512kbit = 64kword of instructions! Perhaps for the programmer to perform the programming without a host. Maybe just my on side thinking because I plan to include one in my testing board for the same purpose. Anyway I will connected an Atmel 4Mbit DataFalsh (5V, a pretty old - now obsolete device). Best regards, WH Tan {Original Message removed}

2005\07\08@174818 by Denny Esterline

> > Finally the informations are posted there... > > Interesting! > > Note the pushbutton (documented as 'currently no funtion') and the two > 24LC512's. I can guess what they are for! > > Also note that the doc states 'able to program most flash chips', so it > is aimed 'higher' than the Baseline Flash Programmer or the PicKit 1. > > But I see no price indication :( > Plug the part number (DV164120) into the buy.microchip website and this page turns up: http://buy.microchip.com/productsearch.aspx?Keywords=DV164120 Just to save you the click, $50 US and ship date of Aug 19 '05. -Denny

2005\07\08@174842 by WH Tan

Hi, Check buy.Microchip with the part number. $34.99 for the one without the demo board. Best regards, WH Tan {Original Message removed}

2005\07\08@180355 by Tom Smith

OK...what are they for? :) -----Original Message----- From: KILLspampiclist-bouncesKILLspammit.edu [RemoveMEpiclist-bouncesTakeThisOuTmit.edu]On Behalf Of Wouter van Ooijen Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 5:26 PM To: 'Microcontroller discussion list - Public.' Subject: RE: [PIC] PICKIT 2 (was PICKit1 & PIC18F2550) <snip> Note the pushbutton (documented as 'currently no funtion') and the two 24LC512's. I can guess what they are for! <snip>

2005\07\08@185830 by Mark Rages

On 7/8/05, Tom Smith <spamBeGoneperegrynspamBeGoneoptonline.net> wrote: > OK...what are they for? :) > > {Original Message removed}

2005\07\08@200823 by WH Tan

And now back to a previous discussion... It seems like the 'boost converter' design is almost the same as PICKit 1. Then I wonder the firmware must be done some tweaking to achive the 'acceptable' level of 'fluctuation' when a load is connected, as if it is to 'support' most of the flash parts. I believe my firmware output is the same as what the real PICKit 1 does. And here is what happen when the Vpp transistor was turning on. Best regards, WH Tan begin 666 001.gif M1TE&.#EA( +Z`/<```````$!`0("`@,#`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`````( +Z```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`%-LXL/1<9DHMA8U M6N2/588L\;XCX_0OE-5IK.&6[IK%<;QAREGEQSZNBW#).+]Z<I1X/JD@R]/> M?*["!><99W+KCDENN ,.BG123(<X<<@5BVR>AP>V[#+41(M<K[+SYBRVV#NG MBS*<54,VD= /W8QLV,<BK?783=,M'G+1HK>MS)[2_RMHPES;+?C@G,ZM\,N$ M"\YVXK$N?G#4+3D.>-VR2AZ1Y4-?!GF:C">.>>?#(@[ZZ*3W^_E8I=-]>NJ+ MKKXUZ[#'SI#A,[7L>EHAT:STW]3R23OO+-U^K-._FTNYU'%3Z2:M8#>FJ+O" MU_S1A59Z2K6>T<NN_=IDEEU\OAFSNW'@M>+'K/AI@[S]1=FK'IS%D8'UY=.U M@<GP\.23:[ZQVN:[_O_ N=+9Y),V?%TO:_[#7?YFM;^II6Q@`#Q<!+DG0)X] M,'Q8LZ !\9<2R]6G0LE[()4R=[S(X:I]KT,>;"IHM@MB3WD-A)'!4@B7W,50 M?5:+V02_M</+O>^ +>R/T?]:DQL(7FN!Q;J:QL*3OB7V\(DV9"'0@(@VE!5Q MA*A#HD9TQZ=NH0N'4)Q=&-_U0SJ9<4IO`U#X=#B^#H[QC3C['LRVZ*CVH5"! 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2005\07\09@044344 by Peter Onion

On Sat, 2005-07-09 at 08:06 +0800, WH Tan wrote: > And now back to a previous discussion... > Then I wonder the firmware must be done some tweaking to > achive the 'acceptable' level of 'fluctuation' when a load is > connected, That's really not a very well regulated supply! How much current were you taking from the supply ? Peter

2005\07\09@075405 by WH Tan

Hi Peter, I was not really measuring the current. But the circuit is exactly the same as PICKit 1 design. So it's driving 1) Before Vpp transistor driving the voltage divider resistors for the feedback voltage. From calculation about 13/7.4k + a bit more into the A/DC. So I think about 2mA. 2) A load resistor R22, after the Vpp transistor, about 13/10k = 1.3mA 3) The target PIC, which is PIC12F675. From the programming spec. , it doesn't mention the value but the require high voltage is generated internally. Vpp apply to MCLR is used as a level source and didn't take much currect. I think neglect able. Best regards, WH Tan {Original Message removed}

2005\07\10@215022 by Chen Xiao Fan

I have an original PICkit 1 and I measure the waveform of the boost converter output and the MCLR pin waveform. I think the design of the original firmware is flawed or maybe it is the limitation of the USB requirement. If you measure the output of the boost converter. You will find that It also has the dip you noticed on the Vpp/MCLR pin. The dip is not because of the turn-on of Vpp (i.e. turn of Q3 and Q4) or because of lousy regulation but because of the +13V itself. The reason is that it is normally at 4.8V (Vusb minus some drop) since Q2 is always off. Then when the host software issues a Read/Write command, the boost converter starts to generate the 13V needed. Then you have the settling time of the boost converter (overshoot and undershoot) and thus the dip. The correct way is to generate 13V constantly. The potential problem is the slightly higher current consumption when there is no read/write command. Another possible solution is to have longer delay time after starting the PWM. Regards, Xiaofan {Original Message removed}

2005\07\10@221235 by Chen Xiao Fan

part 1 475 bytes content-type:text/plain;Attached please find the waveform captured after issuing a read command for a 12F629. The scope is a Lecroy LT264. Trace D is the zoom of channel 4 (Output of the boost converter measured at positive terminal of C4 (47uF/25V). Trace C is the zoom of channel 3 (Vpp/MCLR pin of 12F629). It is quite clear that +13V is not constantly generated. I have not measured ICD2. I guess that the +13V in ICD2 is constantly generated (after USB enumeration). Regards, Xiaofan part 2 14138 bytes content-type:image/gif; (decode) part 3 35 bytes content-type:text/plain; charset="us-ascii" (decoded 7bit)

2005\07\11@020806 by WH Tan

Hi, Thanks for the scope capture. I think I can say that my waveform is very much the same as the real PICKit 1. I wonder you must be using the the latest firmware. Since you have looked into the source. You should notice in v2.0.2, the VppOn, VppHigh etc have been commented out. In my version I put it back. That was why it has a sharp rise time to +13V. Also the second pulse should be longer as yours, anyway I used a breakpoint and it has been came into effect. Also I have raised the target voltage a bit. Best regards, WH Tan {Original Message removed}

2005\07\11@044906 by Electron

At 10.12 2005.07.11 +0800, you wrote: >Attached please find the waveform captured after issuing a >read command for a 12F629. The scope is a Lecroy LT264. > >Trace D is the zoom of channel 4 (Output of the boost converter >measured at positive terminal of C4 (47uF/25V). > >Trace C is the zoom of channel 3 (Vpp/MCLR pin of 12F629). > >It is quite clear that +13V is not constantly generated. I >have not measured ICD2. I guess that the +13V in ICD2 is >constantly generated (after USB enumeration). > >Regards, >Xiaofan > >[ pickit1.gif ] Hi, if I may ask, what is your oscilloscope brand/model?

2005\07\11@052618 by Chen Xiao Fan

The brand is Lecroy. The model is Waverunner LT264. It is 350MHz, 1GS/s, 4-ch and I think it quite expensive. I liked my previous HP54600B but this one is much better (but much more expensive). However I think Lecroy has got some newer models already. Regards, Xiaofan -----Original Message----- From: Electron [TakeThisOuTelectron2k4EraseMEspam_OUTinfinito.it] Sent: Monday, July 11, 2005 5:50 PM To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. Subject: RE: [PIC] PICKIT 2 (was PICKit1 & PIC18F2550) At 10.12 2005.07.11 +0800, you wrote: >Attached please find the waveform captured after issuing a >read command for a 12F629. The scope is a Lecroy LT264. Hi, if I may ask, what is your oscilloscope brand/model?

2005\07\11@055027 by Electron

At 17.26 2005.07.11 +0800, you wrote: > >The brand is Lecroy. The model is Waverunner LT264.
>It is 350MHz, 1GS/s, 4-ch and I think it quite expensive.
>I liked my previous HP54600B but this one is much
>better (but much more expensive). However I think
>Lecroy has got some newer models already.

>Regards,
>Xiaofan Thanks. -- http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive View/change your membership options at http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

2005\07\13@215219 by Chen Xiao Fan

I downloaded the user guide and schematics yesterday. It is a pity that the firmware source code is not available. Actually the programming protocol is not available either. I am not so sure whether they will release the firmware code any more after I see the potential capability of the PICkit 2. Therefore WH Tan's work is still quite interesting (to port PICkit 1 16C745 to 18F2550). >From the schematics, the implementation of the Vpp power is the same as PICkit 1. Not so sure if the firmware is better. There are quite some circuitry added for the target Vdd adjustment. The target Vdd seems to be able to be adjusted from 5V downwards. >From the host application, it is aiming quite high. It now supports baseline and mid-range 12F and 16F. It also has menu options for 18F, 18J (0.25um parts) and dsPIC! However these options are not enabled now. The 2 EEPROMs and the push-button are there. I think they are for off-line programming. Regards, Xiaofan {Original Message removed}

2005\07\13@235937 by WH Tan

Hi, Yes indeed. I was having the same feeling. It's a tool rather than testing board as in PICKit 1. No firmware source for public this time around. I was looking for the protocol used in PICKit 2 as well. Again it suggests that Microchip has a difference policy for PICKit 2. And look at the PICKit 2 appearence, it really look like a tool rather than a testing board. Best regards, WH Tan {Original Message removed}

2005\07\14@023623 by Wouter van Ooijen

> The target Vdd seems to be able to > be adjusted from 5V downwards. That seems a bit silly to me, the lowest guaranteed vltage from USB is iirc some 4.5V, who would want to adjust down from that? Wouter van Ooijen -- ------------------------------------------- Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl consultancy, development, PICmicro products docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu

2005\07\14@030344 by Chen Xiao Fan

Hehe, the famous "From" problem from WH Tan's email system. Look at the two ">" from the quoted email. Some people got really frustrated by this bug in the GNUPIC list while promoting open source. Looks like a Unix/Linux problem or SendMail problem. {Original Message removed}

2005\07\14@040311 by Chen Xiao Fan

Yes it looks rather like a tool. But you can always open it and throw away the case. :) Since the schematic is open, one can easily build the PICkit 2 as well. Even without the schematic, it is rather easy to reproduce the hardware since it is not so complicated as ICD2 (lots of clone on the Web). The "case" of the firmware is much more difficult to throw away. :) I do not think one would like to reverse engineering the firmware. But maybe the protocol can be reverse engineered. LPLAB is doing that (to reverse engineering the ICD2 protocol). Regards, Xiaofan -----Original Message----- From: WH Tan Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2005 11:56 AM Hi, Yes indeed. I was having the same feeling. It's a tool rather than testing board as in PICKit 1. No firmware source for public this time around. I was looking for the protocol used in PICKit 2 as well. Again it suggests that Microchip has a difference policy for PICKit 2. And look at the PICKit 2 appearence, it really look like a tool rather than a testing board. Best regards, WH Tan

2005\07\14@052152 by Chen Xiao Fan

I am using version 2.02 firmware for the PICkit 1 but I do not see that VppON and VppOff being commented out. Attached is the firmware source code that I have. Regards, Xiaofan Version 2.02 download from Microchip: ;*************************************************************************** *** ; EnterProgramMode ; Issues Enter Program Mode command to PIC12F629/675. Clears ProgramCntr. ; Inputs: none ; Outputs: none ;*************************************************************************** *** EnterProgramMode call VppInit ; Initiate Vpp PWM call VppOff ; Turn Vpp off call VppHigh ; Set Vpp to 13v (when it's turned on) bcf PORTC,ICSPDATA ; make both clock and data outputs bcf PORTC,ICSPCLOCK bsf STATUS,RP0 bcf TRISC,ICSPDATA ; make both clock and data outputs bcf TRISC,ICSPCLOCK bcf STATUS,RP0 movlw 0x3F ; force clock and data pin low andwf PORTC,f call Delay2_5ms ; delay call Delay2_5ms clrf ProgramCntr clrf ProgramCntr+1 decfsz ProgramCntr,f ; wait 65536x3 instructions (~160ms) goto $-1 decfsz ProgramCntr+1,f goto $-3 call VppOn ; Turn Vpp on decfsz ProgramCntr,f ; wait 256x3 instructions (~128us) goto $-1 ; ProgramCntr is clear upon leaving function call VddOn ; turn on Vdd decfsz ProgramCntr,f ; wait 65536x3 instructions (~160ms) goto $-1 decfsz ProgramCntr+1,f goto $-3 return Version 1.0 from Microchip: ;*************************************************************************** *** ; EnterProgramMode ; Issues Enter Program Mode command to PIC12F629/675. Clears ProgramCntr. ; Inputs: none ; Outputs: none ;*************************************************************************** *** EnterProgramMode bsf STATUS,RP0 movlw 0x02 movwf TRISC ; RC1 is input; RC0,RC2-RC7 are outputs bcf STATUS,RP0 movlw .85 ; Clear ProgramCntr (see later in function) movwf ProgramCntr clrf ProgramCntr+1 movlw 0x3F ; force clock and data pin low andwf PORTC,f call Delay ; 4 ms delay call Delay call VppOn ; turn on Vpp decfsz ProgramCntr ; wait 85x3 instructions (~40us) goto $-1 ; ProgramCntr is clear upon leaving function call VddOn ; turn on Vdd return {Original Message removed}

2005\07\14@053529 by WH Tan

Actually, My main priority with the PICKit 1 is to study some experiments. First the USB HID class communication. It appears to me that the descriptors used in PICKit 1 is very much differ from Microchip and Jan Axelson's example. Now it's emulation proceeded suscessfully. MPLAB then can connect to it and I had suscessfully 'write' something to PIC12F675. The next thing is the PID and voltage control. Well again an interesting subject to study. Until now I see that there are a lot of experiments awating me. I can't do it now but until the end of next week, perhaps I will have a chance to do something then. As the moment, it seems to me that some tuning can be done to the PID multiplier factor (forget the symbol used here without any reference in hand, I think something like Kp, Ki, Kd etc). I think then 'reverse engineering' the PICKit 2 is not a priority for me. At least the efforts required could be much more than to study/implement one yourself. This is especially true as many resources are available for PICKit 1. I will stick with PICKit 1 at the moment. Best regards, WH Tan {Original Message removed}

2005\07\14@054135 by WH Tan

No. Surely I didn't mean that. You can't do the programming with those lines commented out. What I mean is somewhere 10+ lines after the label 'Main'. If I remember correctly, I saw in earlier version source it's not commented out. Best regards, WH Tan {Original Message removed}

2005\07\14@082620 by WH Tan

Probably for the new J part? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wouter van Ooijen" <RemoveMEwouterTakeThisOuTvoti.nl> To: "'Microcontroller discussion list - Public.'" <piclistEraseME.....mit.edu> Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2005 2:34 PM Subject: RE: [PIC] PICKIT 2 (was PICKit1 & PIC18F2550) {Quote hidden}>> The target Vdd seems to be able to >> be adjusted from 5V downwards. > > That seems a bit silly to me, the lowest guaranteed vltage from USB > is > iirc some 4.5V, who would want to adjust down from that? > > Wouter van Ooijen > > -- ------------------------------------------- > Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl > consultancy, development, PICmicro products > docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu > > > --

2005\07\14@205539 by Chen Xiao Fan

It must be. The supply voltage for the 0.25um J parts is only up to 3V6. >From 18F87J10 Datasheet: Special Microcontroller Features: * Operating voltage range: 2.0V to 3.6V * 5.5V tolerant input (digital pins only) * On-chip 2.5V regulator * Low-power, high-speed CMOS Flash technology {Original Message removed}

2005\07\15@011200 by Chen Xiao Fan

I see. I agree with you that it is better to enable the boost converter PWM after the USB enumeration, i.e., to un-comment the following three lines of codes. ; call VppInit ; Initiate Vpp PWM ; call VppOff ; Turn Vpp off ; call VppHigh ; Set Vpp to 13v (when it's turned on) Regards, Xiaofan ;*************************************************************** ;Version 2.02 Main movlw .30 ; delay 16 uS to wait for USB to reset movwf W_save ; SIE before initializing registers decfsz W_save,f ; W_save is merely a convienient register goto $-1 ; to use for the delay counter. ... pagesel InitUSB call InitUSB ; Initialize USB communication. ; call VppInit ; Initiate Vpp PWM ; call VppOff ; Turn Vpp off ; call VppHigh ; Set Vpp to 13v (when it's turned on) call VddOn ; Turn Vdd on call InitCommandTable call PopInit ; Initialize Popbyte variables call TxInit ; Initialize transmit variables MainLoop call ServiceUSB ; see if there are any USB tokens to process ... ;*************************************************************** ;Version 1: Main ... pagesel InitUSB call InitUSB ; Initialize USB communication. pagesel VppInit call VppInit ; Initiate Vpp PWM call VppOff ; Turn Vpp off call VppHigh ; Set Vpp to 13v (when it's turned on) call VddOn ; Turn Vdd on call PopInit ; Initialize Popbyte variables call TxInit ; Initialize transmit variables MainLoop call ServiceUSB ; see if there are any USB tokens to process ... -----Original Message----- From: WH Tan [EraseMEtanwhnotes.src.global.sharp.co.jp] Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2005 5:38 PM To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. Subject: RE: [PIC] PICKIT 2 (was PICKit1 & PIC18F2550) No. Surely I didn't mean that. You can't do the programming with those lines commented out. What I mean is somewhere 10+ lines after the label 'Main'. If I remember correctly, I saw in earlier version source it's not commented out. Best regards, WH Tan

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