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'[PIC] PIC24 On the Radar Screen of Cortex M3 MCU V'
2007\10\30@221247 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
Yesterday an ST STM32 (Coretx M3) guy from France visited us
promoting STM32. I can clearly see that it beats the TI TMS470 we
use right now in almost very aspect (lower current, single supply,
5V I/O tolerant, fast bit toggling, lower cost). Looks nice and it
supports 105 degree C operation just like TMS470. The only
thing unique to TMS470 is the HET High End Timer, kind of
a coprocessor for waveform generator.

Interestingly they also list PIC24 along with Renesas M16C and H8S
for code density and speed comparison. Of course in their benchmark,
STM32 beat all three. Interestingly PIC24 beats M16C and H8S by
a big margin and lose not too much to STM32.

The PIC24 is cheap, good performance (up to 40MIPS, lose out
to STM32 -->up to 72MHz or 80MIPS??). Harold is asking for
more performance from PIC24 or its successor. It is very
interesting to see what is the response from Microchip. Rumor
is that they will develop PIC32, a 32bit PIC.
http://forum.microchip.com/tm.aspx?m=291734

Regards,
Xiaofan

2007\10\31@051140 by Jan-Erik Soderholm

face picon face
Xiaofan Chen wrote:

> Rumor
> is that they will develop PIC32, a 32bit PIC.
> http://forum.microchip.com/tm.aspx?m=291734
>
> Regards,
> Xiaofan

Where does it say that ?

Jan-Erik.

2007\10\31@070855 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On 10/31/07, Jan-Erik Soderholm <spam_OUTjan-erik.soderholmTakeThisOuTspamtelia.com> wrote:
> > Rumor is that they will develop PIC32, a 32bit PIC.
> > http://forum.microchip.com/tm.aspx?m=291734
> >
>
> Where does it say that ?
No that is the post from Harold asking for more speed. PIC32 is only
a rumor I heard some time ago.

Xiaofan

2007\10\31@085933 by Funny NYPD

picon face
Wondering How big a market for 30-60MIPS?
For end user, the higher the MIPS, the better for most of the case.

Funny



{Original Message removed}

2007\10\31@090032 by Jan-Erik Soderholm

face picon face
OK, I thought that the text and the link
was related... :-)

Jan-Erik.

Xiaofan Chen wrote:
> On 10/31/07, Jan-Erik Soderholm <.....jan-erik.soderholmKILLspamspam@spam@telia.com> wrote:
>>> Rumor is that they will develop PIC32, a 32bit PIC.
>>> http://forum.microchip.com/tm.aspx?m=291734
>>>
>> Where does it say that ?
> No that is the post from Harold asking for more speed. PIC32 is only
> a rumor I heard some time ago.
>
> Xiaofan

2007\10\31@094441 by wouter van ooijen

face picon face
> Wondering How big a market for 30-60MIPS?
> For end user, the higher the MIPS, the better for most of the case.

That's where the ARM uC's are strong now. I doubt Microchip could beat
the NXP chips in this arena on price and features. There might be a
niche left for DIP chips, but I doubt that is large enough.

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu



2007\10\31@100648 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On 10/31/07, wouter van ooijen <wouterspamKILLspamvoti.nl> wrote:
> > Wondering How big a market for 30-60MIPS?
> > For end user, the higher the MIPS, the better for most of the case.
>
> That's where the ARM uC's are strong now. I doubt Microchip could beat
> the NXP chips in this arena on price and features. There might be a
> niche left for DIP chips, but I doubt that is large enough.
>

NXP is not really cheap other than the a few low end device. And PIC24H
is actually pretty cheap.
http://www.gnuarm.com/ArmDevices_frame.html
http://www.microchip.com/ParamChartSearch/chart.aspx?branchID=8186&mid=14&lang=en&pageId=75

The Cortex M3 based MCU is supposed to be cheaper than those
Arm7 based MCU according to ST. They say their price will beat
NXP to death. Let's wait and see.

Xiaofan

2007\10\31@103405 by Funny NYPD

picon face
ST is up and down for quite a while. Freescale is going down for losing both high-end and low end to competitors.

Funny



{Original Message removed}

2007\10\31@111021 by wouter van ooijen

face picon face
>
> NXP is not really cheap other than the a few low end device.
> And PIC24H is actually pretty cheap.
> http://www.gnuarm.com/ArmDevices_frame.html
>

Which chips would you compare? If I take the LPC2103 it seems to match
24HJ32GP204 / 24HJ64GP206. For prices I prefer to compare one supplier,
digikey @ 100 is 2.92 for the LPC, 4.05 for the GP206 (but maybe that
does not do full justice to microchip-direct). The PICs are 40 MIPS, the
LPC's (IIRC) 72 (maybe only 60) MIPS. And the LPC is 32 bits, these PICs
are 16 bits, right?

Another popular ARM is the LPC2148: 512k flash, 32k ram, USB interface,
64 LQFP, digikey $9.48 @ 100. Which 24HJ would be comparable?

The ARM is strongly supported by free (GCC) and commercial (based on
either GCC or propriatary compiler) toolchains. Asm, C, C++, pascal,
java, download whatever you want. Upward migration is possible to uP
mode chips that run Linux. I think the PIC24 support is a bit pale in
comparison...

One strong point for the 24's might be Microchips reputation for not
dropping a chip. It is too soon to say how NXP and the other ARM
suppliers will so on this aspect.

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu



2007\10\31@213143 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On 10/31/07, Xiaofan Chen <.....xiaofancKILLspamspam.....gmail.com> wrote:
> Interestingly they also list PIC24 along with Renesas M16C and H8S
> for code density and speed comparison. Of course in their benchmark,
> STM32 beat all three. Interestingly PIC24 beats M16C and H8S by
> a big margin and lose not too much to STM32.
>
> The PIC24 is cheap, good performance (up to 40MIPS, lose out
> to STM32 -->up to 72MHz or 80MIPS??). Harold is asking for
> more performance from PIC24 or its successor. It is very
> interesting to see what is the response from Microchip. Rumor
> is that they will develop PIC32, a 32bit PIC.

If they want to develop a 32bit MUC, I think they have sevearl choices.

1) Using an existing 32bit MCU core like those from ARM, espeiclaly the
new Cortex M3 where not many vendors are supporting it (Luminary,
ST now. TI is said to develop some new ones). Or they can use
MIPS since it just announced the new Core targeted toward 32bit MCU
http://www.eetimes.com/news/latest/showArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=E0BXFAWUYKDL4QSNDLSCKHA?articleID=202800129

2). Use the existing PIC24 and then extend it to PIC32.

3) Combined 1) and 2) just like Atmel with ARM and AVR32. Take note
Atmel is not backing Cortex M3 but choose to use Arm7/Arm9/AVR32.

I will tend to guess Microchip will go route 1.

Xiaofan


'[PIC] PIC24 On the Radar Screen of Cortex M3 MCU V'
2007\11\01@033208 by William \Chops\ Westfield
face picon face

On Oct 31, 2007, at 8:06 AM, wouter van ooijen wrote:

> Another popular ARM is the LPC2148: 512k flash, 32k ram, USB  
> interface,
> 64 LQFP, digikey $9.48 @ 100. Which 24HJ would be comparable?

I find the prospect of a single architecture spanning the "1 dollar to
1 GHz" (Luminary Micro phrase, I think) to be pretty attractive.  
Assuming
the M3 and ARM9 or whatever are really similar enough to group under the
"same architecture" label.  Assorted company's 16-bit offerings  
(including
Microchip) look pretty unattractive compared to the low-end ARM chips.
I couldn't muster much interest at all in the 16-bit PIC contest that
was held recently, for instance...

BillW

2007\11\01@040657 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On 11/1/07, William Chops Westfield <EraseMEwestfwspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTmac.com> wrote:
> I find the prospect of a single architecture spanning the "1 dollar to
> 1 GHz" (Luminary Micro phrase, I think) to be pretty attractive.
> Assuming the M3 and ARM9 or whatever are really similar enough
> to group under the "same architecture" label.  Assorted company's
> 16-bit offerings (including Microchip) look pretty unattractive compared
> to the low-end ARM chips.
>
>  I couldn't muster much interest at all in the 16-bit PIC contest that
> was held recently, for instance...

True. I did not use my Explorer 16 Demo board even though I attended
the seminar and bought the board. That is why I was supprised to see
the relative low price of PIC24.

That being said, 8051 is said to be the "multi-vendor" platform and
have a lot of vendors and 3rd party tools. However this does not
prevent PIC/AVR/MSP430 "prorietory" architetures to be very
successful in the market. So believe the same thing will happen.
ARM7/9/Cortex M3 core are now the popular "multi-vendor"
platform and enjoyed quite some vendors and 3rd party tools.
Still I think Renesas/FreeScale/Microchip/Atmel will still do
well. Atmel is an interesting case that it used ARM7/ARM9 but
choose not use Coretx M3 and uses its own AVR32 UC3 to
compete with Cortex M3 core.

Freescale is now pushing seamless migration between its
8/32bit with RS08 core and Coldfire V1 core. Renesas is
now pushing 16/32bit easy migration path with its various cores.

It will be really interesting to see if Microchip will use
ARM core for 32bit PIC. My bet is that it will not.

Xiaofan

2007\11\01@041205 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On 10/31/07, wouter van ooijen <wouterspamspam_OUTvoti.nl> wrote:
>
> Another popular ARM is the LPC2148: 512k flash, 32k ram, USB interface,
> 64 LQFP, digikey $9.48 @ 100. Which 24HJ would be comparable?

Microchip is pretty weak in USB. And LPC2148 is way too expensive
if compared with the STM32 USB parts.

> The ARM is strongly supported by free (GCC) and commercial (based on
> either GCC or propriatary compiler) toolchains. Asm, C, C++, pascal,
> java, download whatever you want. Upward migration is possible to uP
> mode chips that run Linux. I think the PIC24 support is a bit pale in
> comparison...

Ture. PIC24 is not in the same league. But I think it can compete well
with LPC210x or higher end 8051.

The ARM9/XScale core are pretty the choice for Linux or
Windows CE compatibility. Maybe Intel and AMD will not sit there
and will come out some lower power and integrated x86  to
get a piece of the big pie.

Xiaofan

2007\11\01@042746 by wouter van ooijen

face picon face
> > Another popular ARM is the LPC2148: 512k flash, 32k ram, USB
> > interface,
> > 64 LQFP, digikey $9.48 @ 100. Which 24HJ would be comparable?
>
> Assorted company's 16-bit offerings  
> (includin Microchip) look pretty unattractive compared to the low-end
> ARM chips.

I tend to agree, but I am open to arguments to the contrary.

One notable difference: Mirochip has a hughe range of chips, compared to
that even the combined ARM offererings look pale. But for the beginner /
small-scale professional that is not a real advantage, maybe even a
disadvantage. For the professional / large-scale user it is probably an
advantage.

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu



2007\11\01@043100 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
> I find the prospect of a single architecture spanning the
> "1 dollar to
> 1 GHz" (Luminary Micro phrase, I think) to be pretty
> attractive.
> Assuming
> the M3 and ARM9 or whatever are really similar enough to
> group under the
> "same architecture" label.  Assorted company's 16-bit
> offerings
> (including
> Microchip) look pretty unattractive compared to the
> low-end ARM chips.
> I couldn't muster much interest at all in the 16-bit PIC
> contest that
> was held recently, for instance...

The area that ARM are going to have most problem invading is
Microchip's traditional homeland - the ultra low power
applications where low clock speed is acceptable as a
tradeoff for energy use. ARM is inherently more 'lossy'. A
friend who carries a bright burning ARM torch at all times
(only figuratively most of the time (you know who you are,
Ken) says that uChip will adopt ARM or die. Failing that
they may have to head for the hills and remain the bastion
of the cable TV and smart card and ... applications.


       Russell


2007\11\01@045424 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On 11/1/07, Xiaofan Chen <@spam@xiaofancKILLspamspamgmail.com> wrote:
> On 10/31/07, wouter van ooijen <KILLspamwouterKILLspamspamvoti.nl> wrote:
> >
> > Another popular ARM is the LPC2148: 512k flash, 32k ram, USB interface,
> > 64 LQFP, digikey $9.48 @ 100. Which 24HJ would be comparable?
>
> Microchip is pretty weak in USB. And LPC2148 is way too expensive
> if compared with the STM32 USB parts.

By the way, I bought the Olimex LPC-P2148 1.5 years ago and I still
do not have much time to play with it. It is a nice chip. The LPC2888
is even better (high speed USB).

Xiaofan

2007\11\01@054620 by wouter van ooijen

face picon face
> Microchip is pretty weak in USB. And LPC2148 is way too
> expensive if compared with the STM32 USB parts.

One more source to check, thanks.

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu



2007\11\01@054620 by wouter van ooijen

face picon face
> By the way, I bought the Olimex LPC-P2148 1.5 years ago and I
> still do not have much time to play with it. It is a nice
> chip. The LPC2888 is even better (high speed USB).

IIRC the were lots of issues with this chip (late delivery, bugs).
Almost like Mirochip ;)

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu



2007\11\01@054620 by wouter van ooijen

face picon face
> The area that ARM are going to have most problem invading is
> Microchip's traditional homeland - the ultra low power
> applications where low clock speed is acceptable as a
> tradeoff for energy use.

IMO the PICs still rule in the word of the very small chips. My worry is
that uChip will devote too much of its attention to the higher end
market.

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu



2007\11\01@115917 by William \Chops\ Westfield

face picon face

On Nov 1, 2007, at 2:44 AM, wouter van ooijen wrote:

>> The LPC2888 is even better (high speed USB).
>
> IIRC the were lots of issues with this chip

I was a little disturbed to recently receive advertising from
NXP on their small ARM chips like the 2103, all pointing to
documentation that is still tagged "preliminary", though it
was released in Jan 2006.

BillW

2007\11\01@125639 by wouter van ooijen

face picon face
> I was a little disturbed to recently receive advertising from
> NXP on their small ARM chips like the 2103, all pointing to
> documentation that is still tagged "preliminary", though it
> was released in Jan 2006.

Welcom to the ugly world. A lot of datasheets from Microchip, Atmel and
NXP are marked "preliminary" forever. I mention only those 3 because I
have not checked any other ;)

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu



2007\11\01@145732 by alan smith

picon face
Another rumor...did I hear it here or?  is they may license the ARM core as well for the 32 bit

Jan-Erik Soderholm <RemoveMEjan-erik.soderholmTakeThisOuTspamtelia.com> wrote:  Xiaofan Chen wrote:

> Rumor
> is that they will develop PIC32, a 32bit PIC.
> http://forum.microchip.com/tm.aspx?m=291734
>
> Regards,
> Xiaofan

Where does it say that ?

Jan-Erik.

2007\11\01@192052 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On 11/1/07, wouter van ooijen <spamBeGonewouterspamBeGonespamvoti.nl> wrote:
> > Microchip is pretty weak in USB. And LPC2148 is way too
> > expensive if compared with the STM32 USB parts.
>
> One more source to check, thanks.

It is interesting that NXP does not go the route of Cortex
M3 which apparently have better performance for MCU
application than ARM7TDMI which is not designed with MCU
application in mind.

Xiaofan

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