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'[PIC] PIC Assembler'
2016\08\25@210925 by IVP

face picon face
> My most used hardware is a 10 minute coffee timer based
> on a 12F508

My most used is a PIC emulator of my set-top box remote. I use
it to change channels for recording overnight or when I'm not here

Can't buy one ? Make one

Joe


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2016\08\25@211925 by Richard Pope

picon face
Joe,
    Would you be interested in sharing this with others?
GOD Bless and GOD Help us,
rich!

On 8/25/2016 8:09 PM, IVP wrote:
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2016\08\25@220743 by IVP

face picon face
>     Would you be interested in sharing this with others?

I'll dig out and upload something a little later today

Joe


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2016\08\25@221856 by Richard Pope

picon face
Joe,
    I appreciate it.
Thanks,
rich!

On 8/25/2016 9:07 PM, IVP wrote:
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2016\08\26@012657 by IVP

face picon face
>     I appreciate it.

Richard, here are a few bits and pieces

https://www.flickr.com/photos/97814409@N04/albums/72157672972293475

The original Sky remote was in use for ~ 20 years. The schematic is
for that remote. When they changed the remote early this year the
code was re-written. It turned out to be a much simpler protocol to
implement and I was able to dispense with the 555 modulator. The
PIC now drives the IR LED transistor directly via TMR2 (note the
green wire in the board picture). As the periods are now regular
(compared with the original remote), a look-up table is used for the
on/off times

In new_ic.gif the red bars are bursts of IR which make up the header
common to all numbers followed by the actual number pattern in blue.

I used a logic analyser to capture the remote's activity and worked it
out from there.

Pressing a key during power-up enables the keypad to be calibrated.
Press them in the order shown on the LCD

50Hz mains IRQ for time

Code

http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/joecolquitt/channel_change_2016.asm

Could probably do with a few more comments, but you know .......

Maybe one day. For now it does what I need. Particularly Sunday/
Monday. The only sports I follow are F1, MotoGP, SBK and Indy.
Generally these are on at Northern hemisphere times, sometimes all
4 after midnight on Sunday, which is most inconvenient for those of
us Down Under. I am not getting up at 1am, 4am and 6am to change
channels ;-)

Joe


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2016\08\26@014013 by IVP

face picon face
> Joe - I browsed through your photos - you are an amazing craftsman
> on many fronts - woodworking not the least of which from the looks
> of it!

Thank you Sean. I love having my hands busy

Unfortunately I've not managed to finish any wooden pieces this year.

Several part-way through though. Combination of no time and a very
wet and cold winter has kept me out of the shed for a while. I'm aware
that the summer tourist season is fast approaching and would really like
to get all dusty again. I've had a look around at what's being offered in
that market and have to say I'm disappointed by the mundanity. Salad
bowls everywhere. Yuck. Yawn. Too easy, too much competition

And not one with a PIC inside ;-)) I'm in the privileged position of
being at least competent in more than one craft and looking forward
to getting a stepper clock done, now that I've finally got some passable
3D printed gears. And a few other ideas I should get off my a*** and
make a start on

Joe


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2016\08\26@050357 by alan.b.pearce

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> And not one with a PIC inside ;-)) I'm in the privileged position of being at
> least competent in more than one craft and looking forward to getting a
> stepper clock done, now that I've finally got some passable 3D printed gears.
> And a few other ideas I should get off my a*** and make a start on

How about a clock with wooden gears and a solenoid to clunk the escapement instead of a pendulum. The gears would all be visible through cutouts in the case ...

That could be controlled by a PIC that listens to one of the 60kHz time frequency's (can they be received in NZ?) and with a magnet in the ends of the hands and a hall effect device at the 12 o'clock position you would know every hour what time it is displaying. Then it could pulse the solenoid fast to go to summer time or just stop for an hour to go back to standard time.



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2016\08\26@053017 by IVP

face picon face
> How about a clock with wooden gears

I've made some from pohutakawa

https://www.flickr.com/photos/97814409@N04/albums/72157644882823968

It's a rock-hard wood and not something I'd care to repeat on a regular basis

I've drawn up some 3D files for just the teeth and plan to put those
around a wooden hub, which isn't nearly so much work

> and a solenoid to clunk the escapement instead of a pendulum. The
> gears would all be visible through cutouts in the case ...

Those gears are going to be moved by a solenoid (of sorts) but not
in the way you probably think

> That could be controlled by a PIC that listens to one of the 60kHz
> time frequencies

GPS modules are ridiculously cheap too.

> with a magnet in the ends of the hands and a hall effect device at the
> 12 o'clock position you would know every hour what time it is displaying.
> Then it could pulse the solenoid fast to go to summer time or just stop
> for an hour to go back to standard time.

All of the clocks I've seen in the craft market are simply relocated quartz
movements in an "arty" setting. Which is fine enough, if simple to do

The long case clock I'm planning

https://www.flickr.com/photos/97814409@N04/albums/72157644973110900

will have as many smarts as I can jam in there, including length adjustment
to synchronise with mains. Probably not possible to advance a pendulum
clock for daylight saving via the pendulum but a small motor on the gears
should do it

Joe


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2016\08\26@061159 by alan.b.pearce

face picon face
> > How about a clock with wooden gears
>
> I've made some from pohutakawa
>
> www.flickr.com/photos/97814409@N04/albums/72157644882823968
>
> It's a rock-hard wood and not something I'd care to repeat on a regular basis
>
> I've drawn up some 3D files for just the teeth and plan to put those around a
> wooden hub, which isn't nearly so much work

Nice, I guess if it is that hard it is a bit like working oak. I have never considered how hard pohutakawa is, but I guess living in the shoreline means it needs to be. How did you cut the teeth?

{Quote hidden}

Ah, yes, that would be a better method these days. Can also give you an accurate 1 second pulse as well.


{Quote hidden}

Nice. Should look great when finished.



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2016\08\26@070033 by IVP

face picon face
> How did you cut the teeth?

Scrollsaw. Cutting them isn't too bad, bit of concentration needed
to stay on the line, it's sanding them (with a fine sanding blade) that's
tedious. That's why I'd rather have them moulded

>> long case clock

> Nice. Should look great when finished

Hope so. Some very good videos on Youtube of powered pendulum
clocks. Mostly well-made but quite basic electronically, eg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SbswEjVcTw

Depends what you want. Sometimes simple is good. GPS time-
keeping wouldn't be too intrusive, maybe not cover them in LEDs

And traditional drives too as kinetic sculptures

http://www.timeshapes.com/index.php

Joe


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2016\08\26@102043 by RussellMc

face picon face

On 26 August 2016 at 23:00, IVP <spam_OUTjoecolquittTakeThisOuTspamclear.net.nz> wrote:

> > How did you cut the teeth?
>
> Scrollsaw. Cutting them isn't too bad, bit of concentration needed
> to stay on the line, it's sanding them (with a fine sanding blade) that's
> tedious. That's why I'd rather have them moulded


​Arguably no need to fine finish teeth. Cut oversize as close to finish as
you can then set them uo in mesh with a light load and leave them be. They
will self generate the involute shapes by wearing down outliers.

A useful visualisation is to draw two meshing gears and then look at the
locus of the contact points as they travel though mesh. It;'s an ;aha'
moment even though obvious in retrospect.

.... here ...

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c2/Involute_wheel.gif

from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Involute_gear

Even better:

http://www.engineeringexpert.net/Engineering-Expert-Witness-Blog/tag/meshed-gears

​

​Warning - involute gears were "invented" by Euler!
(If you don't count the ones that self-made themselves over millenia before
that.

​
​     R​
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2016\08\26@161128 by Jean-Paul Louis

picon face

This kind of thread is why I love so much the PIClist.

It’s the only place where gear making art mix very well with PIC antics.


Just my $0.02,

Jean-Paul
N1JPL





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2016\08\26@182414 by John Gardner

picon face

Hi Joe -

Re inspiration:  If you have'nt seen this,  it's worth a look,  per what's

attainable with non-electronic means.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shortt-Synchronome_clock

Some time ago an aficionado tracked down a surviving Shortt clock

(partially disassembled,  in a NBS basement)  got it going again,  and

tested it against "modern" horological standards  - If you're interested

& can't track it down I'll dig it out for you...

On 8/26/16, Jean-Paul Louis <.....louijpKILLspamspam.....gmail.com> wrote:
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2016\08\26@191251 by Isaac M. Bavaresco

flavicon
face
The most important benefit of using C (or other high-level language,
although only C is available for virtually every existing architecture)
is portability.

I write my code as hardware-independent as possible, keeping all the
hardware-dependent routines in separated files. When porting some
application to a different platform, I just need to rewrite a few source
files.

I would say that 80% of my code is shared unmodified across platforms
(PIC16F, PIC18F, PIC24, dsPIC, PIC32, Cortex M3, 8051, AVR, etc.), while
the remaining 20% is platform-specific. That would not be possible if I
used assembly.

I have a large library of functions, that I use almost unmodified, such
as bit-banged I2C (I prefer using bit-banged because I don't need to
worry about dealing with different hardware implementations, and some
platforms don't have the peripheral anyway), AES encryption/decryption,
HD44780 LCD, graphical LCD, RTOS, keyboard decoding, and much more.

For instance, my keyboard routines use only two hardware-specific
routines: void SelectColumn( int column ); and unsigned char ReadRows(
void );

Those two routines are kept in a separated source file and must be
ported. In that file also is implemented the timer ISR that calls
regularly the routine void KeyboardScan( void ), which is kept in the
file common to all architectures, together with all the rest (decoding,
buffering, reading, etc.) .


Cheers,

Isaac



Em 25/08/2016 22:28, David Duffy (AVD) escreveu:
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2016\08\26@202902 by IVP

face picon face
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shortt-Synchronome_clock

Clever stuff innit

I have seen it before. There's one I saw last year which also
pushes the engineering boundaries. It was in a UK science or
horological museum/institute. A really swish thing with three
spherical pendulum weights, laboratory grade. Had a quick
look through Google images but didn't see it

Joe


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2016\08\26@210514 by John Gardner

picon face
Something that sticks in my mind - The S-S clock revealed that the

short-term variation in the Earth's rotation is a matter of seconds...

This took me some getting used to - YMMV.   :)



On 8/26/16, IVP <@spam@joecolquittKILLspamspamclear.net.nz> wrote:
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2016\08\28@170756 by smplx

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On Sun, 28 Aug 2016, Bob Ammerman wrote:

{Quote hidden}

It is common for an experienced embedded C programmer to be able to tweak C code so as to coax the compiler to generate better optimization on successive iterations.

For example you might find that a C compiler generates better code if the control variable of a for loop decrements down to 0, or if the control variable is not used inside the for loop at all. You might also find that indexing an array is much slower that auto incrementing a pointer.

Regards
Sergio Masci
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2016\08\28@174550 by Bob Ammerman

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> For example you might find that a C compiler generates better code if the
> control variable of a for loop decrements down to 0, or if the control
variable is
> not used inside the for loop at all. You might also find that indexing an
array is
> much slower that auto incrementing a pointer.
>
> Regards
> Sergio Masci

Yes, I've certainly done that kind of thing, especially with code for
smaller chips (where I usually code in assembly). It can really make a
difference. But in this case, I did nothing to write 'optimal' C, just a
straightforward implementation of the algorithm. I was very impressed with
the compiler.

-- Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems.

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2016\08\28@182910 by Michael Johnston

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So is there a good tutorial on how to write code in XC8 or XC16? I have a
copy of  MicroC some where but really haven' looked at it lately. I also
have an introductory C book from MikroElktronkia and it is helpful to some
extent. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thank You Michael

On Sun, Aug 28, 2016 at 4:45 PM, Bob Ammerman <KILLspampicramKILLspamspamroadrunner.com> wrote:

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2016\08\29@060432 by smplx

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On Sun, 28 Aug 2016, Michael Johnston wrote:

> So is there a good tutorial on how to write code in XC8 or XC16? I have a
> copy of  MicroC some where but really haven' looked at it lately. I also
> have an introductory C book from MikroElktronkia and it is helpful to some
> extent. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thank You Michael
>

I don't know of any but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

I would strongly recommend, to anyone that wanted to learn C, that they do so on a PC first.

Regards
Sergio Masci
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2016\08\29@092930 by Harold Hallikainen

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Years ago, I used "Power C." It was a compiler that ran under MS DOS. It
came with a very extensive manual that was a good introduction to C. I
still have it!

Harold

>
>
> I don't know of any but that doesn't mean they don't exist.
>
> I would strongly recommend, to anyone that wanted to learn C, that they do
> so on a PC first.
>
> Regards
> Sergio Masci

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2016\08\29@102823 by Allen Mulvey

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I, too, have Power C. I even have a floppy drive to read the
disks. I'm not sure if I have drivers though. Is it possible
to access a floppy drive from a modern computer? I'm using
Windows 10 Pro.

Allen
Ps: Today I use Mikro-C with an EasyPIC v7.

> {Original Message removed}

2016\08\29@111957 by Jan-Erik Söderholm

face picon face
I haven't looked or searched for it, but it would surprise me
a lot if there isn't USB connected floppy drives...

He, first hit for "USB floppy drive" on eBay:

"1.44Mb 3.5" USB External Portable Floppy Disk Drive Diskette FDD for Laptop
PC"

$9.51 with free shipping from China. How the heck can they built it *and*
ship it worldwide for that amount?
Right, looking closer, if you want support for anything newer then WinXP,
you have to pay a little more. Still reasonable...

Jan-Erik.

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Mulvey
Skickat: den 29 augusti 2016 16:36
Till: 'Microcontroller discussion list - Public.' <TakeThisOuTpiclistEraseMEspamspam_OUTmit.edu>
Ämne: RE: [PIC] PIC Assembler

I, too, have Power C. I even have a floppy drive to read the disks. I'm not
sure if I have drivers though. Is it possible to access a floppy drive from
a modern computer? I'm using Windows 10 Pro.

Allen
Ps: Today I use Mikro-C with an EasyPIC v7.

> {Original Message removed}

2016\08\29@135900 by Harrison Cooper

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face
I have one, I think it's a Dell unit, but of course it's a 3.5"" floppy, not the 5-1/4".  My version of Power-C came on the 5-1/4" size discs.

This has been an interesting thread....in bringing out from the dusty corners names I haven't seen for a while.  The only one missing is Jory, I know there are some of us around that do remember him :-)

{Original Message removed}

2016\08\29@143743 by smplx

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part 1 1287 bytes content-type:text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" (decoded quoted-printable)



On Mon, 29 Aug 2016, Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote:

{Quote hidden}

I bought a 3.5" USB floppy drive from Amazon a few years ago. It was OK for standard M$ formated floppies but did not like single sided or "other" formats. I never tried formating a blank floppy with it but the way it
appeared as a USB block device when you actually loaded a formated floppy into it (but not a non-M$ formated floppy) makes me wonder if it were capable of formating a blank floppy.

I also wonder if it is possible to hack the 3.5" drive to work with 5.25" drives (I have my doubts because it only seemed to like 1.44MB formated floppies).

Regards
Sergio Masci

part 2 197 bytes content-type:text/plain; name="ATT00001.txt"
(decoded base64)

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2016\08\29@144321 by Bob Ammerman

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Yeah, 5-1/4 is tough to find. I do have a machine with one, and would be
willing to transfer stuff to 3-1/2" - just supply the disks and pay the
postage both ways.

~ Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems

> {Original Message removed}

2016\08\29@152035 by Jan-Erik Söderholm

face picon face
If you actually have the data off the floppies, why write it onto
another set of floppies? Does it absolutely have to be on floppies?

Maybe there is some installation routine that expects floppies...

Jan-Erik.

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Ammerman
Skickat: den 29 augusti 2016 20:43
Till: 'Microcontroller discussion list - Public.' <EraseMEpiclistspammit.edu>
Ämne: RE: [PIC] PIC Assembler

Yeah, 5-1/4 is tough to find. I do have a machine with one, and would be
willing to transfer stuff to 3-1/2" - just supply the disks and pay the
postage both ways.

~ Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems

> {Original Message removed}

2016\08\29@153947 by Bob Ammerman

flavicon
face
> Maybe there is some installation routine that expects floppies...

In this case, and assuming there is no silly copy protection scheme, the
little known and seldom used SUBST command it your friend.

Just put your floppy files in a folder, say C:\FAKE_FLOPPY, and then enter
the command "SUBST A: C:\FAKE_FLOPPY"

~ Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems



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2016\08\29@160112 by smplx

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On Mon, 29 Aug 2016, David C Brown wrote:

> I like this analogy: writing assembler is like writing poetry.   Every
> word, nay every syllables , must be polished and in perfect harmony with
> its neighbours.  And the result makes your soul soar
>
> Writing in a high level language like Algol or Fortran or Pascal or VBasic
> is like writing a monthly progress report.  Simple, easy to read but giving
> you no real pleasure in the achievement.
>

I cannot disagree more strongly.

Writing is assembler is a tool such as a microbiologist would use while writing in a high level language is a tool such as an astronomer would use. Both can see beauty through each others tools if they care to look.

Regards
Sergio Masci
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2016\08\29@171925 by James Cameron

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On Mon, Aug 29, 2016 at 05:19:55PM +0200, Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote:
> I haven't looked or searched for it, but it would surprise me
> a lot if there isn't USB connected floppy drives...
>
> He, first hit for "USB floppy drive" on eBay:
>
> "1.44Mb 3.5" USB External Portable Floppy Disk Drive Diskette FDD
> for Laptop PC"
>
> $9.51 with free shipping from China. How the heck can they built it
> *and* ship it worldwide for that amount?

You ask how?  ;-)

Your question possibly rhetorical, but of interest to me, since I'm
working for an organisation that makes use of the same factors;

- the exchange rate,

- a high volume of production,

- a shipping subsidy,

- an outbound customs subsidy,

- other subsidies to manufacturing industries by government.

Perhaps is a vulnerability in ideological reliance on economics;
someone in a market may use forward pricing, thus capturing a market.

-- James Cameron
http://quozl.netrek.org/
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2016\08\30@185850 by RussellMc

face picon face

The following batch invoked (BATtered?) use of subst is immensely useful.
Odds are there is some equally good or better new-fangled (ie < 15 years
old) method but this so far works well.

On 30 August 2016 at 07:39, Bob Ammerman <RemoveMEpicramEraseMEspamEraseMEroadrunner.com> wrote:


> ​>
> the
> ​ ​
> little known and seldom used SUBST command it your friend.
>

​Speak for yourself (or actually, for some others, in this case)

Frequently used here is eg WAXON.BAT

   @echo off
   cls
   subst x: /D
   subst x: .

And friends eg WAAON WABON WAYON ...
Yes, could have a single 'program' with parameters, but the attraction of
the name 'WAXON' was too great.
The others followed 'logically'.

Initially I had WAXOFF & friends before deciding that just adding the
...... /D line eliminated the need.

Somewhat surprisingly, running eg WAXON.BAT in a 'DOS' window on Windows 10
assigns X: happily system wide. Thus it can be used for eg copying
destinations in a photo editing program
eg "T:\...............\9_High" becomes x:\9_High allowing standard
destination folders to be used and changed as a "bank" as desired.
Failing to reset eg WAXON to the latest photo area when changing subjects
can lead to some interesting photo mixtures.

___________________

I just wondered what would happen if I entered   'WindowsKey'WAXON
in WIN10 with no other preparation or windows open.
I'll try that sometime when the possible crash is liable to be less
annoying than it would be just now.



         Russell

_______________

Assignments vary as needed, but typical Irfanview F7 key assignments may
be:

WABON is run (may as well use A: and B:) then

...
2 C:\email_me
3 B:\3_Special
...
5 B:\5_Improved
6 B:\6_Junk
7 B:\7_Low
8 B:\8_Good
9 B:\9_High
...
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2016\08\30@200206 by James Wages

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I somewhat disagree with that disagreement.  :-)

Writing code in Assembly is like driving a car with a sports suspension, allowing you to feel the road.  Writing code in C is like driving a Ford with a boat suspension.  You know your car is on the road, you just can't feel or hear it that much.

ASM gives you utmost control, and if you are able to craft something amazing with ASM, akin to the original Macintosh Systems 1 through 6, you deserve high praise indeed.  System 7 was a turning point in features for the Mac, but it was noticeably slower versus the comparatively "wicked fast" versions 1 through 6.  Perhaps performance doesn't matter so much on a PIC than a computer, but then again, one could argue that C matters less on a PIC than a computer too.

But at the end of the day, those who know C will likely praise it, and those who are experts in ASM will praise it.  So I doubt our debate will convince anyone who already knows one of those 2 languages.

When I was in engineering school in the late 80's and early 90's, we had FORTRAN and PASCAL classes.  The push toward C didn't come until about the time I graduated, so I never studied C.  While unfortunate, I've not been hindered by that lack of knowledge.  ASM, which I actually learned on my own after college, has served me well.  But if I were to learn a new language today, it probably would not be for the PIC.  Apple's SWIFT looks intriguing, has roots in Objective C, and serves a potentially lucrative purpose as well.

--James W.


Mon, 29 Aug 2016 21:05:39 +0100 (BST), smplx <RemoveMEsmplxspam_OUTspamKILLspamallotrope.net>:

   I cannot disagree more strongly.
       Writing is assembler is a tool such as a microbiologist would use while     writing in a high level language is a tool such as an astronomer would     use. Both can see beauty through each others tools if they care to look..




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2016\08\31@100904 by RussellMc

face picon face
Long ago I wrote out an "XXX is like" list.
Long gone.
And no doubt before the days of Light Sabres, so it may have in part gone
nothing like:

C is like a superbly sharpened Katana with no hand guard.

Assembler is like unto a 2 bladed double ended Katana with no guard and
maybe no hilt.
Nowadays that would be a double ended light sabre.

Pascal, hand guard, buckler, cotton wool.

COBOL Cutlass, rusty, blunt, very large.

....



r
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2016\08\31@165021 by Richard Prosser

picon face
C# = Steamroller used for cracking nuts, with most of the controls hidden..

I'm sure there's an elongated thread  to come. :-)

RP



On 1 September 2016 at 02:08, RussellMc <RemoveMEapptechnzTakeThisOuTspamspamgmail.com> wrote:
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'[PIC] PIC Assembler'
2016\09\11@204828 by John Ferrell
face
flavicon
face
With an ample set of defines you can make c look like Pascal.


On 8/31/2016 10:08 AM, RussellMc wrote:
> Long ago I wrote out an "XXX is like" list.
> Long gone.
> And no doubt before the days of Light Sabres, so it may have in part gone
> nothing like:
>
> C is like a superbly sharpened Katana with no hand guard.

-- John Ferrell W8CCW
   Julian NC 27283
 It is better to walk alone,
than with a crowd going the wrong direction.
                  --Diane Grant


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2016\09\11@211954 by Jean-Paul Louis

picon face
John,
I am curious. How to enforce typing in C. The real strength of Pascal is strong type enforcement.

Jean-Paul
N1JPL


{Quote hidden}

Just my $0.02,

Jean-Paul
N1JPL




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2016\09\12@072111 by John J. McDonough

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On Sun, 2016-09-11 at 21:19 -0400, Jean-Paul Louis wrote:
> John,
> I am curious. How to enforce typing in C. The real strength of Pascal
> is strong type enforcement.

--pedantic


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2016\09\12@121311 by Bob Ammerman

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face
> John Ferrell
> With an ample set of defines you can make c look like Pascal.

Or you can create a preprocessor that takes Pascal as input and outputs "C"..
This is what Olin did.

~ Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems

> {Original Message removed}

2016\09\12@142352 by Jean-Paul Louis

picon face

John,

Expletives are not standard C.
My compiler said
-- undefined “pedantic"



{Quote hidden}

Just my $0.02,

Jean-Paul
N1JPL




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2016\09\12@213350 by John Ferrell

face
flavicon
face
That sounds a handy work around.  My skills were never put to practical use, so I have no experience to crow about.

I find Pascal to be clear and ! ambiguous while c seems to enjoy the latest slang and programming puzzles that only the wizards can grasp without doodling in the white space.

A Procedure is concise while a function is especially vague when you disregard (void) the answer in favor of some side effect.

I simply accept the fact that those who know more than I prefer c over Pascal and they are right.

It could be that every one is right, and this mash up we work in is the necessary mix we need to stay balanced?


On 9/12/2016 12:12 PM, Bob Ammerman wrote:
> Or you can create a preprocessor that takes Pascal as input and outputs "C".
> This is what Olin did.

-- John Ferrell W8CCW
   Julian NC 27283
 It is better to walk alone,
than with a crowd going the wrong direction.
                  --Diane Grant


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2016\09\12@223519 by Isaac M. Bavaresco

picon face
Indeed Pascal is clear and unambiguous, it was designed that way by
Wirth, but in the core the two languages are equivalent.

If you compare Borland's Turbo Pacal with Turbo C, you will usually find
a more or less direct translation from one to another (except for the
switch/case fallthrough and the "for" statements, which require some work).

Eg:

x++    <=> Inc(x)

x+=n <=> Inc(x,n)


The main difference is that Pascal doesn't accept some ambiguous
statements without you explicitly telling it to accept them.

Eg:

int i;float f;

f    = i + 1;    // That's OK in C

Var i: Integer; f: Real;

f := i + 1; { Error }

f := Real(i) + 1; {OK}


It seems that later Wirth tried to fix some flaws in Pascal and wrote
Modula--2 and Oberon, but those two are much less known than Pascal.


Cheers,

Isaac




Em 12/09/2016 22:33, John Ferrell escreveu:
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2016\09\12@223556 by Trevor

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John Ferrell wrote on 09/13/16 11:33:
> I simply accept the fact that those who know more than I prefer c over
> Pascal and they are right.
>
> It could be that every one is right, and this mash up we work in is the
> necessary mix we need to stay balanced?

My first programming language was Commodore BASIC on a Vic-20, plus some 6502 machine code, to create a BBS.

I started using C (Datalight C which became Zortech C which became Symantec C) in the pre-ANSI days (1982) so I could program utilities for a PC-DOS FidoNet BBS (Opus).

I found Pascal with the advent of Delphi 1 in 1995 to program Windows tax calculators for an income tax product which was being replicated from paper to CDROM. Delphi had no serious competition back then. I subsequently used Kylix for FreeBSD (using Linux emulation) and Lazarus/Free Pascal for OS X for hobby programs. I continued with Delphi for the 20 year stint at the legal publishing company eventually replicating CDROM services on the web complete with the various tax calculators that could be compiled as either standalone Windows executables for CDROM or ISAPI DLLs for the Windows IIS web server (the real content server was Netscape on Solaris).

In 2010 I discovered PIC microcontrollers and the free MCHP C compilers and in 2012 I discovered the MikroElektronika Pascal compilers which I bought. PICs are a hobby. I've written the same programs in both C and Pascal for fun :)

I really have no preference between C and Pascal unless you're talking Windows/OS X GUI programs in which case it's Pascal because of the ease of using Delphi/Lazarus. My last paid job before retiring this year was a 12 year stint doing text/Word/RTF conversions to HTML in C using gcc on FreeBSD and Solaris.

I guess it comes down to using the right tool for the job. The corollary is that it's nearly always easiest to use what you know.

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2016\09\13@031542 by Anthony Nixon

picon face
Var i: Integer; f: Real;

f := i + 1; { Error }

Doesn't produce errors in Delphi Pascal

You can add integers to floats, but not other way around which would
seem logical.

cheers

Tony

On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 12:35 PM, Isaac M. Bavaresco
<KILLspamisaacbavarescospamBeGonespamgmail.com> wrote:
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2016\09\13@101540 by Isaac M. Bavaresco

picon face
I wrote my last Pascal code ages ago, so I may have got some details wrong.


Em 13/09/2016 04:15, Anthony Nixon escreveu:
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2016\09\16@105038 by John Gardner

picon face
Interestingly,  TP7 produces smaller,  faster executables on my HP 200LX

(DOS 5.0,  pretty much) than TC 2.1 ...

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