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'[PIC] PC Power PIC?'
2008\12\06@163547 by solarwind

picon face
Is it safe to attach my computer's power supply to my breadboard to
power my pic? What are some more safety precautions should I take in
order to prevent my PIC from burning out? Should I add another 5 v
regulator to the power supply output?

--
..::[ solarwind ]::..

2008\12\06@164345 by Bob Blick

face
flavicon
face
It'll be fine. I'd worry more about hurting your PC.

How about stealing power from a USB port instead? At least there's a
fuse there.

Cheers,

Bob

solarwind wrote:
> Is it safe to attach my computer's power supply to my breadboard to
> power my pic? What are some more safety precautions should I take in
> order to prevent my PIC from burning out? Should I add another 5 v
> regulator to the power supply output?
>

2008\12\06@164905 by Vitaliy

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solarwind wrote:
> Is it safe to attach my computer's power supply to my breadboard to
> power my pic?

You mean the one inside the PC you're using? I wouldn't.

> What are some more safety precautions should I take in
> order to prevent my PIC from burning out?

Paying attention to which wire you connect to which pin, and checking twice.
Most of the time things burn out because of a miswire.

> Should I add another 5 v
> regulator to the power supply output?

I would use a small wall wart, instead of a PC power supply. Less current
means your eyes and fingers will be safer. A small 12V or a 9V supply
powering the circuit through a 78L05 is probably the safest option.

Vitaliy

2008\12\06@164907 by Picbits Sales

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face

----- Original Message -----
From: "solarwind" <spam_OUTx.solarwind.xTakeThisOuTspamgmail.com>
To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <.....piclistKILLspamspam@spam@mit.edu>
Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 9:26 PM
Subject: [PIC] PC Power PIC?


> Is it safe to attach my computer's power supply to my breadboard to
> power my pic? What are some more safety precautions should I take in
> order to prevent my PIC from burning out? Should I add another 5 v
> regulator to the power supply output?
>

Run it off a 7805 regulator hooked up to the 12v PC Supply (don't forget the
caps as specified in the datasheet)

P.s. Are you a troll ?

2008\12\06@165024 by Vitaliy

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face
Bob Blick wrote:
> How about stealing power from a USB port instead? At least there's a
> fuse there.

Is there really?


2008\12\06@165246 by solarwind

picon face
On Sat, Dec 6, 2008 at 4:43 PM, Bob Blick <bobblickspamKILLspamftml.net> wrote:
> It'll be fine. I'd worry more about hurting your PC.

I have an extra power supply, I'll use that.

> How about stealing power from a USB port instead? At least there's a
> fuse there.

Now THAT's scary.

--
..::[ solarwind ]::..

2008\12\06@165503 by solarwind

picon face
On Sat, Dec 6, 2008 at 4:48 PM, Vitaliy <.....spamKILLspamspam.....maksimov.org> wrote:
> Bob Blick wrote:
>> How about stealing power from a USB port instead? At least there's a
>> fuse there.
>
> Is there really?

That's exactly what I was wondering.

--
..::[ solarwind ]::..

2008\12\06@165524 by solarwind

picon face
On Sat, Dec 6, 2008 at 4:48 PM, Picbits Sales <EraseMEsalesspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTpicbits.co.uk> wrote:
> P.s. Are you a troll ?

Excuse me? Last time I checked,  I was human.

--
..::[ solarwind ]::..

2008\12\06@165834 by solarwind

picon face
Time to head to my local electronics store with a list of components.

--
..::[ solarwind ]::..

2008\12\06@165945 by olin piclist

face picon face
Vitaliy wrote:
>> How about stealing power from a USB port instead? At least there's a
>> fuse there.
>
> Is there really?

Typically a polyfuse, but of course that can vary between motherboards.
Laptops sometimes have active power management on USB ports.  Desktops have
more power available and typcially use the cheaper option of a polyfuse that
won't cause trouble if the device draws 500mA or less.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2008\12\06@170018 by Tamas Rudnai

face picon face
I use old ATX PSU as a workbench PSU for several projects. It is reasonable
stable and has short circuit protection on it. Also my PIC managed soldering
iron is powered by ATX, the standby drives the PIC, and the +-12 is the 24V
for the soldering iron. But for that the -12 had to be redone (using
stronger diodes and thicker coils) and of course the +5 is better to not to
be used and make a voltage divider to the feed back line. Alternatively the
+5 has to be constantly loaded at around 2A. I got these PSUs free of charge
from old computers, just had to clean and check/repair before use...

If you connect your circuit to another device - like your PC - then be
careful to use the same ground level.

Tamas


On Sat, Dec 6, 2008 at 9:43 PM, Bob Blick <bobblickspamspam_OUTftml.net> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> -

2008\12\06@170932 by Steve Smith

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Yes it is possible to scavenge a bit of power (5v) from a  usb but you need
to do negotiation with the host to see how much you are allowed if I
remember and without any intelligence at the point of consumption you only
have a small amount to play with  (10mA I think)

Steve

{Original Message removed}

2008\12\06@172540 by peter green

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Steve Smith wrote:
> Yes it is possible to scavenge a bit of power (5v) from a  usb but you need
> to do negotiation with the host to see how much you are allowed if I
> remember and without any intelligence at the point of consumption you only
> have a small amount to play with  (10mA I think)
>  
That depends whether you care about violating the USB spec.

2008\12\06@173308 by Bob Blick

face
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Steve Smith wrote:
> Yes it is possible to scavenge a bit of power (5v) from a  usb but you need
> to do negotiation with the host to see how much you are allowed if I
> remember and without any intelligence at the point of consumption you only
> have a small amount to play with  (10mA I think)

On a typical PC motherboard the USB has a fuse of some kind and that is it.

Usually the fuse is for multiple ports.

I'm running a fan and a light off mine right now.

The current limits are for power management. Compliant clients are
supposed to draw a minimum amount of current while they negotiate with
the host. They request a maximum current, and the host is able to tell
them they can or can't have it. But it's all for budgeting. On laptops
this is important. On a desktop or server it is meaningless as long as
you don't trip the fuse. And as Olin says, it's usually a polyswitch.

Cheerful regards,

Bob

2008\12\06@173854 by peter green

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solarwind wrote:
> Is it safe to attach my computer's power supply to my breadboard to
> power my pic? What are some more safety precautions should I take in
> order to prevent my PIC from burning out? Should I add another 5 v
> regulator to the power supply output?
>  
There are a couple things to be aware of with PC power supplies

1: they don't tend to like being run significantly underloaded.
Significantly underloaded They will often have poor regulation if
unloaded. Some will even latch off if underloaded (though this is rare)
2: some of then can deliver pretty significant current under short
circuit conditions.

If I was making a say a decoration for my PC case or some other little
thing I wanted to mount on/in my PC or I was doing a project with high
current needs and using a PC PSU to supply those needs I wouldn't
hesitate to run it off the 5V supply from the PCs PSU but for
experimenting with pics IMO a wall wart and a 7805 or similar is a
better choice than a PCU PSU.

Another idea if you really want to use a PC PSU for a small project
might be to leave the PSU in the off state and run your pic of the 5V
"standby" supply.

2008\12\06@174656 by Carl Denk

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You can even get switching or linear regulated wall warts. I run a
18F1320 PIC with a temperature and 2 pressure sensors that transmits
RS-232 and/or fiber optic off a wall wart. If there is a power surge or
other event that blows the wall wart, it is easily replaced by someone
with less than non tech. expertice.

peter green wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2008\12\06@174936 by Tony Smith

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> Bob Blick wrote:
> > How about stealing power from a USB port instead? At least there's a
> > fuse there.
>
> Is there really?


Usually there's a 1 amp polyfuse in there.  They're self-resetting, which is
nice.

Polyfuse is a trademark, Google reckons they're actually a PPTC, polymeric
positive temperature coefficient device.  I'll stick with polyfuse, I think.


Windows knows when you short out a port, you get a message along the lines
of "Windows has detected a power surge, and the port has been shut down'.
You get it back after a while.

Tony

2008\12\06@175454 by Tony Smith

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> On Sat, Dec 6, 2008 at 4:48 PM, Picbits Sales <@spam@salesKILLspamspampicbits.co.uk> wrote:

> > P.s. Are you a troll ?
>
> Excuse me? Last time I checked,  I was human.
>
> --
> ..::[ solarwind ]::..


I believe Mr Sales (Hmm, possibly Ms Sales) is expressing surprise that
someone who has designed a scientific calculator from scratch would now have
a problem in powering it.

Asking a group a lot of silly questions in order to annoy them is considered
fun by some.

Tony

2008\12\06@180354 by solarwind

picon face
On Sat, Dec 6, 2008 at 5:53 PM, Tony Smith <KILLspamajsmithKILLspamspambeagle.com.au> wrote:
> I believe Mr Sales (Hmm, possibly Ms Sales) is expressing surprise that
> someone who has designed a scientific calculator from scratch would now have
> a problem in powering it.
>
> Asking a group a lot of silly questions in order to annoy them is considered
> fun by some.

I just want to be safe.

--
..::[ solarwind ]::..

2008\12\06@180711 by Neil Cherry

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face
On the issue of using a spare PC power supply. Some supplies won't
start unless they have a large enough load such as a hard drive.
Some of the newer power supplies also need to be fed back some of the
power (a power good signal). I believe you can find info online
how to handle both conditions.

--
Linux Home Automation         Neil Cherry       RemoveMEncherryTakeThisOuTspamlinuxha.com
http://www.linuxha.com/                         Main site
http://linuxha.blogspot.com/                    My HA Blog
Author of:            Linux Smart Homes For Dummies

2008\12\06@181346 by solarwind

picon face
On Sat, Dec 6, 2008 at 6:06 PM, Neil Cherry <spamBeGonencherryspamBeGonespamlinuxha.com> wrote:
> On the issue of using a spare PC power supply. Some supplies won't
> start unless they have a large enough load such as a hard drive.
> Some of the newer power supplies also need to be fed back some of the
> power (a power good signal). I believe you can find info online
> how to handle both conditions.

It's an ATX power supply, it can be started by simply shorting two
specific pins on the ATX connector.


--
..::[ solarwind ]::..

2008\12\06@185315 by Tony Smith

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face
> > I believe Mr Sales (Hmm, possibly Ms Sales) is expressing surprise that
> > someone who has designed a scientific calculator from scratch would now
have
> > a problem in powering it.
> >
> > Asking a group a lot of silly questions in order to annoy them is
considered
> > fun by some.
>
> I just want to be safe.
>
> --
> ..::[ solarwind ]::..


Ah, then look both ways when crossing the street, wear rubber gloves, and
beware of the trolls who like giving silly answers.

Tony

2008\12\06@190709 by Tamas Rudnai

face picon face
> It's an ATX power supply, it can be started by simply shorting two
> specific pins on the ATX connector.

Exactly, however, if the load is not enough the stabiliser will not work
properly. I measured one of the ATX PSU around 4V, but when I put a 10W / 2A
load it was fairly good. I do not use HD as it is noisy, a high power
resistor is good enough - and then your heating of your lab also sorted out
:-).

Tamas


On Sat, Dec 6, 2008 at 11:13 PM, solarwind <TakeThisOuTx.solarwind.xEraseMEspamspam_OUTgmail.com> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> -

2008\12\06@191027 by peter green

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face

> Windows knows when you short out a port, you get a message along the lines
> of "Windows has detected a power surge, and the port has been shut down'
I think that depends on whether the motherboard manufacturer bothered to
implement detection of power issues on the USB ports. On my old laptop
(haven't tried it on my current laptop and don't intend to) a short on
the USB power just resulted in the devices on the port in question and
the other port in the same power group (the ports appeared to be powered
in groups of two) dropping out of device manager and the power returned
pretty much as soon as the short was removed. Windows didn't say
anything about the power condition.

2008\12\06@222010 by Vitaliy

flavicon
face

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tamas Rudnai" <tamas.rudnaiEraseMEspam.....gmail.com>
To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <EraseMEpiclistspammit.edu>
Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 17:07
Subject: Re: [PIC] PC Power PIC?


{Quote hidden}

We used a PC power supply in an in-house design, IIRC we just used two
1-watt resistors to make it work.

Vitaliy

2008\12\06@225650 by Isaac Marino Bavaresco

flavicon
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Vitaliy escreveu:
{Quote hidden}

For power supplies that use the TL494, it is easy to modify the voltage
feedback circuit to make the voltage you want to stay regulated, without
the need for loading. The other voltages should be left disconnected.

All the circuits I have seen use a resistive network to pin 1 of the
TL494 for voltage feedback. Just remove the feedback from the voltage
you are not using (+5V or +12V) and change the resistors of the one you
will use to give the voltage you need. Many models have a protection
circuit that gets upset and must be deactivated, or the power supply
will disarm instantly.

I have two of such power supplies that I added a potentiometer and may
be adjusted between 2.5V and 25V (using the 12V original output).
Changed capacitors of course.

Unfortunately the TL494 is seldom used in the new ATX power supplies.

Best Regards,

Isaac

__________________________________________________
Faça ligações para outros computadores com o novo Yahoo! Messenger
http://br.beta.messenger.yahoo.com/

2008\12\07@005044 by Dr Skip

picon face
Picbits Sales wrote:
> P.s. Are you a troll ?

OK, after 300 list messages read in one sitting, this one bugs me. Nothing he
said points to this, but just putting myself in the place of recipient gives me
a bad feeling. What kind of answer do you expect?? What is the goal?

People go about trying not to offend in all sorts of politically-correct ways
here, but still find ways to try to just make someone feel bad. What kind of
nonsense is that?

Offering a comment online is like giving a gift <of one's ability>. If you
wouldn't want to receive it, you shouldn't give it... Especially if there's a
doubt about the assumptions.

I know I just hate it when I ask a question somewhere online, risking looking
stupid, or ugly, or whatever, which takes a bit of effort even online, and some
jerk decides he's going to evaluate me, or my right to ask a question, or if
the question is 'worthy' - while sitting behind his keyboard. Do people who
write these things like to receive them too? If not, why are they written?
Everyone here is a person, with feelings. It's even worse when folks gang up too.

I'll admit this one isn't the worst, but still, someone comes asking for help,
showing he doesn't know everything, and he gets a slap. I know if that were
assumed of me, after I went out on a limb with a group I respected, it would
bother me for some time. It just isn't right.

As for disclaimer, I don't personally know the OP, but am willing to bet he's a
human as he says, is sincere, and has feelings as all of us do. Online
colleagues should be treated as such, until there is _proof_ the title doesn't
fit, and then it's an admin problem.


-Skip

2008\12\07@141149 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
Dr Skip wrote:
> Picbits Sales wrote:
>  > P.s. Are you a troll ?
>
> OK, after 300 list messages read in one sitting, this one bugs me.

It definitely does not bug me. Some of his questions were so utterly
basic that I could hardly belief they were genuine.

--

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu

2008\12\07@143702 by Picbits Sales

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face


> Dr Skip wrote:
>> Picbits Sales wrote:
>>  > P.s. Are you a troll ?
>>
>> OK, after 300 list messages read in one sitting, this one bugs me.
>
> It definitely does not bug me. Some of his questions were so utterly
> basic that I could hardly belief they were genuine.
>
> --
>
> Wouter van Ooijen
>
> -- -------------------------------------------

Indeed. Hence why I asked the question.

Further research on him shows that he **could** be someone who is quite
active on the Linux scene and has written some Linux utilities. This further
confused me as the guy who posts under the same name on the Linux forums
seems a reasonably knowledgable person and a quick search for his answer
wouldn't be beyond him.

Maybe he is genuinely just an absolute beginner on the electronics side of
things but as Wouter has also noted, some of the questions could have been
answered by a 2 minute (if that !) search or by reading the datasheet.

I'm also impressed by Olins level of tolerance these days .......

Dom ( Mr Picbits ;-) )

2008\12\07@163324 by solarwind

picon face
On Sun, Dec 7, 2008 at 2:36 PM, Picbits Sales <RemoveMEsalesTakeThisOuTspamspampicbits.co.uk> wrote:
> Indeed. Hence why I asked the question.
>
> Further research on him shows that he **could** be someone who is quite
> active on the Linux scene and has written some Linux utilities. This further
> confused me as the guy who posts under the same name on the Linux forums
> seems a reasonably knowledgable person and a quick search for his answer
> wouldn't be beyond him.
>
> Maybe he is genuinely just an absolute beginner on the electronics side of
> things but as Wouter has also noted, some of the questions could have been
> answered by a 2 minute (if that !) search or by reading the datasheet.
>
> I'm also impressed by Olins level of tolerance these days .......

Yes, that is me, I wrote those programs (on launchpad, Arch Linux
forums, Ubuntu forums, many more including defragging tools, mail
chekers and lots of random stuff). And yes, I am a beginner in
electronics.


--
..::[ solarwind ]::..

2008\12\07@163747 by solarwind

picon face
On Sun, Dec 7, 2008 at 2:10 PM, Wouter van Ooijen <EraseMEwouterspamspamspamBeGonevoti.nl> wrote:
> It definitely does not bug me. Some of his questions were so utterly
> basic that I could hardly belief they were genuine.

Like?


--
..::[ solarwind ]::..

2008\12\07@163843 by solarwind

picon face
On Sun, Dec 7, 2008 at 2:36 PM, Picbits Sales <RemoveMEsalesKILLspamspampicbits.co.uk> wrote:
> Further research on him shows that he **could** be someone who is quite
> active on the Linux scene and has written some Linux utilities. This further
> confused me as the guy who posts under the same name on the Linux forums
> seems a reasonably knowledgable person and a quick search for his answer
> wouldn't be beyond him.

Just curious, what research _did_ you do on me?


--
..::[ solarwind ]::..

2008\12\07@175347 by Picbits Sales

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face

> On Sun, Dec 7, 2008 at 2:36 PM, Picbits Sales <salesSTOPspamspamspam_OUTpicbits.co.uk> wrote:
>> Further research on him shows that he **could** be someone who is quite
>> active on the Linux scene and has written some Linux utilities. This
>> further
>> confused me as the guy who posts under the same name on the Linux forums
>> seems a reasonably knowledgable person and a quick search for his answer
>> wouldn't be beyond him.
>
> Just curious, what research _did_ you do on me?
>
>
> --
> ..::[ solarwind ]::..

I did a bit of searching on your username / email address etc and ended up
at the Ubuntu forums (which I use anyway) and just had a flick through some
of the stuff you've done / posted / contributed.

Nothing sinister and nothing to make me think you were trolling this
mailling list on a wind up.

Your sheer number of questions (you have virtually dominated the list over
the weekend with your questions) made me a little suspicious.

As a word of advice though, before you start on your calculator project etc,
get a development type board for PICs and start messing about with some
simple code. The learning process on PICs is pretty exponential to a point
then just levels off. You'll find it hard at first then things start to
click and you laugh at all the previous mistakes you made.

Also make sure you read the errata datasheets for the devices you're using -
there are some "gotchas" out there and some of the examples provided in the
datasheets are still very buggy (make sure you set or clear the CFGS bits in
the 18F series when using EEPROM or you'll have problems !!!).

Have fun, start off with very basic projects, alter the code a bit, GOOGLE
(!!!) for any problems you're having as the question will probably have been
answered a million times before. The Microchip forums are a good source of
information ( http://forum.microchip.com ) you will find a lot of the
Piclist users (Olin included) on there as well.

Dom

2008\12\07@193029 by Vitaliy

flavicon
face
solarwind wrote:
>> It definitely does not bug me. Some of his questions were so utterly
>> basic that I could hardly belief they were genuine.
>
> Like?

- Does anyone know the power usage for the PIC32 series?
- What voltage levels do most ICs operate on?
- What is brownout reset?
- Now I just gotta figure out how to use interrupts in C. Does anyone have
any examples?

And then:

- What is "10mil"? What unit is that?
- [What is] Reflow [soldering]?

Vitaliy

2008\12\07@193952 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 6:53 AM, Picbits Sales <spamBeGonesalesSTOPspamspamEraseMEpicbits.co.uk> wrote:

> Have fun, start off with very basic projects, alter the code a bit, GOOGLE
> (!!!) for any problems you're having as the question will probably have been
> answered a million times before. The Microchip forums are a good source of
> information ( http://forum.microchip.com ) you will find a lot of the
> Piclist users (Olin included) on there as well.

FYI only:
Olin is no longer a member of Microchip Forum. Unfortunately.
http://forum.microchip.com/tm.aspx?m=379826

Xiaofan

2008\12\07@194151 by John Ferrell

face picon face
I use the 5 & 12 volts from an open disk connector very frequently. It is
stable and well protected.
John Ferrell    W8CCW

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing." -- Edmund Burke
http://DixieNC.US

{Original Message removed}

2008\12\07@201617 by Michael Algernon

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To Solarwind
I have a ton* of wall warts  that can be used for powering PIC projects.
If you want one or two, will snail mail them to you.  Maybe I have  
some other parts you can use.
MA
* equal to the weight of several hundred books

{Quote hidden}

WFT Electronics
Denver, CO   720 222 1309
" dent the UNIVERSE "

All ideas, text, drawings and audio , that are originated by WFT  
Electronics ( and it's principals ),  that are included with this  
signature text are to be deemed to be released to the public domain as  
of the date of this communication .

2008\12\07@202235 by solarwind

picon face
On Sun, Dec 7, 2008 at 8:15 PM, Michael Algernon <KILLspampicspamBeGonespamnope9.com> wrote:
> To Solarwind
> I have a ton* of wall warts  that can be used for powering PIC projects.
> If you want one or two, will snail mail them to you.  Maybe I have
> some other parts you can use.
> MA

How much?


--
..::[ solarwind ]::..

2008\12\07@203914 by Bob Ammerman

picon face
>> Is it safe to attach my computer's power supply to my breadboard to
>> power my pic? What are some more safety precautions should I take in
>> order to prevent my PIC from burning out? Should I add another 5 v
>> regulator to the power supply output?
>>
>> --
>> ..::[ solarwind ]::..

Solarwind,

I am not sure if you properly understand this, but you can't 'add another 5v
regulator' to an existing 5v output. All regulators (except step-up
switchers) require an unregulated voltage greater than the desired regulated
voltage. You *could* add a  5v regulator to a 12v output (like on a disk
drive power connector).

As scary as it sounds, using a USB port to get 5V is *probably* one of the
safest ways to get 5V (or thereabouts) out of your PC. You should almost
certainly be able to draw up to 100ma without any trouble whatsoever, and
can most likely draw up to 500ma (at least on a desktop system). On the
other hand, most USB ports are protected against short-circuits, ususally
with a device called a "polyfuse" (tm) which is *not* an ordinary fuse, but
rather a device whose resistance *temporarily* jumps up if it gets hot
because too much current is flowing through it. When the short circuit is
corrected and the polyfuse cools down it goes back to conducting with a nice
low resistance.

As a quick aside: I want to wish you the best as you move from the calm
peaceful world of software into the rather more chaotic environs of firmware
and electronics. I hope the PICLIST continues to be a useful resource to you
as you work down this rock-strewn path. Just remember: there are no stupid
questions .... *if* the question is asked in the right way and in the right
place. In today's world a quick google or wikipedia search is often a good
idea.

----
Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems

2008\12\07@210530 by solarwind

picon face
On Sun, Dec 7, 2008 at 8:38 PM, Bob Ammerman <EraseMErammermanspamEraseMEverizon.net> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Thank you. I'll use the USB port.

--
..::[ solarwind ]::..

2008\12\08@012938 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
solarwind wrote:
> On Sun, Dec 7, 2008 at 2:10 PM, Wouter van Ooijen <@spam@wouter@spam@spamspam_OUTvoti.nl> wrote:
>> It definitely does not bug me. Some of his questions were so utterly
>> basic that I could hardly belief they were genuine.

what is a mil?


--

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu

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