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'[PIC] Moving code from gpasm to mpasmx'
2016\11\18@070110 by Peter Onion

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I'm returning to PIC programming after a break of a few years (mostly
playing with Raspberry Pis).

I've just installed MPLABX and so far it's been a positive experience.

The one thing I'm not sure about is this....

My old gpasm code has lots of instructions which explicitly set the "B"
bit for variables in banked memory.

Apart from MPLABX using "BANKED" rather than just "B", it seems from the
bits of test code I've written that explicitly setting the banked bit is
no longer required as the assembler (or linker?) can set it when it sees
memory addresses in instructions which are not in the access bank.

Have I got this right ?

PeterO




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2016\11\18@071710 by Jan-Erik Söderholm

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In the MPASM guide this bit is called the "a" bit, right?
Like in "DECF f, d, a", not?

And the guide also says:

RAM access bit
a = 0: RAM location in Access RAM (BSR register is ignored)
a = 1: RAM bank is specified by BSR register (default)

Not fully clear what "default" relates to here...

Jan-Erik.




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Skickat: den 18 november 2016 13:01
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Ämne: [PIC] Moving code from gpasm to mpasmx


I'm returning to PIC programming after a break of a few years (mostly
playing with Raspberry Pis).

I've just installed MPLABX and so far it's been a positive experience.

The one thing I'm not sure about is this....

My old gpasm code has lots of instructions which explicitly set the "B"
bit for variables in banked memory.

Apart from MPLABX using "BANKED" rather than just "B", it seems from the
bits of test code I've written that explicitly setting the banked bit is no
longer required as the assembler (or linker?) can set it when it sees memory
addresses in instructions which are not in the access bank.

Have I got this right ?

PeterO




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2016\11\18@122644 by Byron Jeff

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On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 12:01:07PM +0000, Peter Onion wrote:
>
> I'm returning to PIC programming after a break of a few years (mostly
> playing with Raspberry Pis).
>
> I've just installed MPLABX and so far it's been a positive experience.
>
I'll leave the technical question for others to address. Reinsertion is a
good time to evaluate platform choices. You've already done one with
MPLABX. But based on your question about banked memory, there are others to
consider.

I've been working on a comparative analysis of Raspberry Pi Zeros to PICS.
The Zero seems to be relatively cost effective for simple high level tasks.
For example my current task with one is converting a chest freezer with a
faulty thermostat into a wirelessly connected refridgerator. Using a 1$ USD
special buy on the Zeros the core ends up being under $10 USD. An added
DS1820 digital temp sensor and an SSD, it's cheap and simple to get a
project going.

The problems are lack of decent peripherals (multiple PWM/CCP, lack of ADC)
and high power consumption. But for simple wall connected tasks, it works
well.

On the PIC side, there have been significant improvements. The PIC24 and
PIC32MX families have real horsepower, decent high level programming
language support, excellent peripherals, and easy hobby packages with 5V
support. My favorite right now is the PIC24FV families of chips in the 20
and 28 pin dip packages. While I still program them in assembly using
Microchips 16 bit assembler, C is available with significant library
support in MPLABX.  Also much lower power consumption is possible.

But at this point, think long and hard before diving back into PIC16F chips
in assembler. I started with the 16C54 25 years ago and ended with the
16F1938 a few years ago. I wouldn't look back to that family unless there
was a significant reason to do so.

Hope this gets you thinking...

BAJ

-- Byron A. Jeff
Associate Professor: Department of Computer Science and Information Technology
College of Information and Mathematical Sciences
Clayton State University
http://faculty.clayton.edu/bjeff
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2016\11\20@120828 by Dwayne Reid

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At 10:35 AM 11/18/2016, Byron Jeff wrote:

>I've been working on a comparative analysis of Raspberry Pi Zeros to PICS.
>The Zero seems to be relatively cost effective for simple high level tasks..
>For example my current task with one is converting a chest freezer with a
>faulty thermostat into a wirelessly connected refridgerator. Using a 1$ USD
>special buy on the Zeros the core ends up being under $10 USD. An added
>DS1820 digital temp sensor and an SSD, it's cheap and simple to get a
>project going.

Hi there, Byron.

You mention a special buy price of $1 for the Raspberry Pi Zero.  Where was that price available from?  Are you aware of any other low-cost suppliers for the Pi Zero?

Many thanks!

dwayne

-- Dwayne Reid   <.....dwaynerKILLspamspam.....planet.eon.net>
Trinity Electronics Systems Ltd    Edmonton, AB, CANADA
780-489-3199 voice   780-487-6397 fax   888-489-3199 Toll Free
http://www.trinity-electronics.com
Custom Electronics Design and Manufacturing

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2016\11\20@133754 by Denny Esterline

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>
>
> You mention a special buy price of $1 for the Raspberry Pi
> Zero.  Where was that price available from?  Are you aware of any
> other low-cost suppliers for the Pi Zero?
>

I would also be interested to know such things.
>From what I can tell, the idea of a Pi Zero for $5 is a marketing gimmick.
The few places that will sell a Pi Zero that is _not_ part of a kit have a
limit of one and shipping and handling that at least triple the price. The
limit one prevents me from buying enough to spread the shipping out over
enough to bring it down to what I consider reasonable. Others will only
sell it as part of a kit of stuff that I don't want and the kit price runs
well into the $30 range.


-Denny
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2016\11\20@144026 by Byron Jeff

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On Sun, Nov 20, 2016 at 10:08:25AM -0700, Dwayne Reid wrote:
> At 10:35 AM 11/18/2016, Byron Jeff wrote:
>
> >I've been working on a comparative analysis of Raspberry Pi Zeros to PICS.
> >The Zero seems to be relatively cost effective for simple high level tasks.
> >For example my current task with one is converting a chest freezer with a
> >faulty thermostat into a wirelessly connected refridgerator. Using a 1$ USD
> >special buy on the Zeros the core ends up being under $10 USD. An added
> >DS1820 digital temp sensor and an SSD, it's cheap and simple to get a
> >project going.
>
> Hi there, Byron.
>
> You mention a special buy price of $1 for the Raspberry Pi
> Zero.  Where was that price available from?  Are you aware of any
> other low-cost suppliers for the Pi Zero?

Microcenter ran a special for $0.99 USD in singles. Unfortunately it didn't
last long. They are back to $5 each. Which honestly is a price I'm happy to
pay.

BAJ



{Quote hidden}

-- Byron A. Jeff
Associate Professor: Department of Computer Science and Information Technology
College of Information and Mathematical Sciences
Clayton State University
http://faculty.clayton.edu/bjeff
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2016\11\20@152616 by Nicola Perotto

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Hi all,

On 20/11/2016 18:08, Dwayne Reid wrote:
> At 10:35 AM 11/18/2016, Byron Jeff wrote:
>
>> I've been working on a comparative analysis of Raspberry Pi Zeros to PICS.
>> The Zero seems to be relatively cost effective for simple high level tasks.
>> For example my current task with one is converting a chest freezer with a
>    Where was that price available from?  Are you aware of any
> other low-cost suppliers for the Pi Zero?
>   They are selling the PI Zero under cost. The lowest price is 5 USD. This is the reason that you can buy only one at once!
You can try to contact Element 14 if you want a custom version of a Raspberry, but only from 1000 pieces... I don't understand if also the PI Zero is available (at (very) higher price).

This is a pity and I'm now searching for an alternative... Have a project with a PIC and a PI Zero.
      Nicola


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2016\11\20@190308 by Byron Jeff

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On Sun, Nov 20, 2016 at 11:37:51AM -0700, Denny Esterline wrote:
> >
> >
> > You mention a special buy price of $1 for the Raspberry Pi
> > Zero.  Where was that price available from?  Are you aware of any
> > other low-cost suppliers for the Pi Zero?
> >
>
> I would also be interested to know such things.
> From what I can tell, the idea of a Pi Zero for $5 is a marketing gimmick..

I agree that it is a marketing gimmick due to a supply side production issue. As
Peter stated, the RasPi Foundation is generating the boards on lines
leased from Sony. There isn't enough margin to do continous production. The
line is shared with RasPi 3 production, which does have enough margin to
carry the limited production of the Zeros.

> The few places that will sell a Pi Zero that is _not_ part of a kit have a
> limit of one and shipping and handling that at least triple the price.

An unfortunate consequence of the RasPi foundation requiring retailers to
sell at cost. I'm fortunate enough to have two MicroCenter's in the Atlanta
area where Microcenter essentially eats the shipping from their
distribution centers.  It is a special circumstance I admit.

So while they are available, for most of the retailers the only way to
recoup the cost is to bundle as you have seen, or limit purchases so that
you come into the store (Microcenter) or purchase other items to balance
out the shipping.

> The limit one prevents me from buying enough to spread the shipping out
> over enough to bring it down to what I consider reasonable.
What limit would make it reasonable? I know for a fact if there isn't a
limit on bare boards, they will be bought in large quantities and then
resold on the tertiary market.

>Others will only
> sell it as part of a kit of stuff that I don't want and the kit price runs
> well into the $30 range.

Agreed. But I cannot see any wide scale distribution at that price point.
For example the back end of that Microcenter 99 cent special was that if
you bought more than one, the price shot up to $10 each I believe. And you
still had to come into the store.

It is clear that the RasPi Foundation isn't interested in subsidizing the
Pi Zero for wide scale production. It seems that the Compute Module is in
fact the target board for that market. And the unsubsidized price on the
Model A compatible compute module is $30. I just read that a RasPI 3
compute module version is on the horizon. However, I haven't see a price
point yet.

BAJ

>
>
> -Denny
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-- Byron A. Jeff
Associate Professor: Department of Computer Science and Information Technology
College of Information and Mathematical Sciences
Clayton State University
http://faculty.clayton.edu/bjeff
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2016\11\20@214434 by John Ferrell

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I read the condition to be an invitation to clone. When you look at the deal from that point of view it does make the $5.00 deal real attractive...


On 11/20/2016 2:49 PM, Byron Jeff wrote:
> Microcenter ran a special for $0.99 USD in singles. Unfortunately it didn't
> last long. They are back to $5 each. Which honestly is a price I'm happy to
> pay.
>
> BAJ
>

-- John Ferrell W8CCW
   Julian NC 27283
 It is better to walk alone,
than with a crowd going the wrong direction.
                  --Diane Grant


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2016\11\21@083713 by Denny Esterline

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>
> > The limit one prevents me from buying enough to spread the shipping out
> > over enough to bring it down to what I consider reasonable.
>
> What limit would make it reasonable? I know for a fact if there isn't a
> limit on bare boards, they will be bought in large quantities and then
> resold on the tertiary market.
> <http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist>
>

>From a purely economic standpoint, I'd like to see shipping under 10% of
product price. $0.50 on a $5 item may be a bit unreasonable but $5 on a $50
order is more acceptable, or even $10 on a $100 order. Obviously that's not
always reasonable (especially on small orders) so, for some things, I'm
willing to go 20-25%. As it stands, I can buy a $5 Pi zero and shipping is
200-300% and I choke on that. And buying more of them to spread the
shipping cost over a larger order is "prohibited".

I have a (hobby) project idea that would require at least 30 nodes. Pi
Zeros might be a good fit, but as it stands, I can buy them one at a time
for about $20 shipped, or I can buy multiple "kits" at about $45 shipped
(or much more, depending on the "kit"). Or I can order as many Pi 3b's as I
want on Amazon for $35.69 with free shipping.

At $5-$10 per node this is very interesting to me, at $30-$50 per node, not
so much.

-Denny
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2016\11\21@095850 by Gordon Williams

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Have you had a look at the NanoPi NEO at $8.  I'm considering it for a project under way using the DietPi OS (stripped down/minimalist raspbian/debian) to store pictures from an Ethernet camera and then serve them to a client on request through a web app.

It has a quad core H3 processor and a very small form factor. Processing power is in the range between pi2 and pi3, so way more than the zero.  Good for headless applications as there is no HDMI and fairly power efficient.  The big gotcha is the shipping price, which doubles the cost.  If you need to run it hard it requires a heat sink or it will throttle. http://www.friendlyarm.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=132

Gordon Williams



On 16-11-21 08:37 AM, Denny Esterline wrote:
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2016\11\21@095926 by Jan-Erik Söderholm

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Hi.

The shipping is usually (I'd say always) based on weight,
not based on value of the shipped goods.

Jan-Erik.


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Ämne: Re: [PIC] Moving code from gpasm to mpasmx

{Quote hidden}

product price. $0.50 on a $5 item may be a bit unreasonable but $5 on a $50
order is more acceptable, or even $10 on a $100 order. Obviously that's not
always reasonable (especially on small orders) so, for some things, I'm
willing to go 20-25%. As it stands, I can buy a $5 Pi zero and shipping is
200-300% and I choke on that. And buying more of them to spread the shipping
cost over a larger order is "prohibited".

I have a (hobby) project idea that would require at least 30 nodes. Pi Zeros
might be a good fit, but as it stands, I can buy them one at a time for
about $20 shipped, or I can buy multiple "kits" at about $45 shipped (or
much more, depending on the "kit"). Or I can order as many Pi 3b's as I want
on Amazon for $35.69 with free shipping.

At $5-$10 per node this is very interesting to me, at $30-$50 per node, not
so much.

-Denny
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2016\11\21@110136 by mike brown

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I too have been away from PIC tinkering for quite some time.  Been playing
with the Pi boards as well.  Unless one needs the weight of a multitasking
OS and heavy duty network support, I'm a fan of ARM Cortex chips.  For me,
they seem to be a good middle ground between small microcontrollers and
Linux or Android based boards.

I have to admit that I got sucked into the Arduino world because of the C
compiler.  Now that the ide supports larger, faster ARM boards, I'm really
finding it hard to justify fighting with PIC assembler.  Especially with
the cheap ESP8266 boards available.  Up to 160MHz 32 bit and usable WiFi
make for a neat tinkertoy.  That is, after you blow away the preloaded
firmware and install an Arduino compatible boot loader.

That all said, I'm fairly impressed with the speed and peripherals of the
18F45K22 that I had to flash for my Renard SSR based Christmas light
controller.  I've really been out of touch with the advancement of the 8
bit PICs.
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2016\11\21@150442 by Denny Esterline

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On Mon, Nov 21, 2016 at 7:59 AM, Jan-Erik Söderholm <
RemoveMEjan-erik.soderholmTakeThisOuTspamtelia.com> wrote:

> Hi.
>
> The shipping is usually (I'd say always) based on weight,
> not based on value of the shipped goods.
>
> Jan-Erik.
>
>
Agreed, the _cost_ of shipping is based on many factors almost none of
which correlate to the value of the goods being shipped.

The point of this off-topic (and growing further off topic as I type :-) )
rant is that it's not really a $5 item if I can only buy one at a time and
there's a $15 shipping and handling fee. At least in this case, the _price_
of shipping appears to be being manipulated such that the vendor can make a
profit that has been denied to them the terms of the Pi Foundation.


-Denny
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