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'[PIC] Morse Code Firmware -- Paper Tape'
2007\04\12@195650 by Walter Banks

picon face

You gotta just love historical records departments they take
you back so far in time. I don't throw anything away and it shows
sometimes. I took a look yep there it was a box of paper tape
backups sealed in 1970 and following me around. The scotch
tape now almost dust opened it up and staring at me top of
the box a tape that said Morse 11-Nov-1974 right behind
it another tape with the sources.

Bunch of old projects, things don't change.

Out of another box was a hand pulled tape reader 9
(8 +sprocket)   mounted photo sensors that someone
sold as a kit at an early personal computer show. Just
add a pull mechanism and light a parallel port and
some software. Time to call Gord an old friend with
a passion for old computer equipment, bet he has a
working teletype. When I get this read I'll post this
relic from the past.

w..




Walter Banks wrote:

{Quote hidden}

2007\04\13@003208 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face

On Apr 13, 2007, at 4:54 PM, Walter Banks wrote:

> When I get this read I'll post this relic from the past.

Sigh.  My relics from that timeframe got put on MODERN media.
Like DECTape.  Which became unreadable pretty much immediately
thereafter.
But I think it's just as well that I can't get a look at the old basic
programs that I had named after assorted girls I knew...

BillW

2007\04\13@070730 by Walter Banks

picon face
I am pretty certain that I have this on PDP-11 DECtape as
well. It might be on RK-05 (2.5M) removable hard disks.
I have a PDP-11 that can read RK-05's hasn't been
powered up for at least 10 years. I think the best bet is
the paper tape. Once read I am sure that I will wince
tat  my coding style from 33 years ago.

It was written in asm

w..

William Chops Westfield wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> -

2007\04\13@132138 by Robert Rolf

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Funny how really primitive storage technologies like paper tape or black and white
film are readable decades (or centuries) later, but modern ones like tape and disks
are NOT.
The archivists and historians of the next century are going to hate us since
our historical records will end in the 1970's when everything went magnetic.

Robert

Walter Banks wrote:

{Quote hidden}

>>-

2007\04\13@133905 by Dario Greggio

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Robert Rolf wrote:

> The archivists and historians of the next century are going to hate us since
> our historical records will end in the 1970's when everything went magnetic.

They will hate only those who *don't do backups* ;-)

--
Ciao, Dario il Grande (522-485 a.C.)

2007\04\13@134657 by Tamas Rudnai

face picon face
Or those who do not print out datasheets ;-)

Tamas


On 4/13/07, Dario Greggio <spam_OUTadpm.toTakeThisOuTspaminwind.it> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -

2007\04\13@135346 by Robert Rolf

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Dario Greggio wrote:

> Robert Rolf wrote:
>
>
>>The archivists and historians of the next century are going to hate us since
>>our historical records will end in the 1970's when everything went magnetic.
>
>
> They will hate only those who *don't do backups* ;-)

Can you read an 8" CP/M floppy? How about a Kaypro 5" disk? 1/2" 7 track magtape?
It doesn't matter how well you back up if the media cannot be read in the future.
At least with film and paper tape, it's relatively easy to build a reader in 100 years.
And isn't film the ultimate Hi-Def media?
And archivists are recovering content from old Edison cylinders. I wonder how well
the next generation will do with flash media after the data bits age into oblivion.
A lot of family photos will be lost to the ravages of bit rot and technology change
in the next few decades.

Robert


2007\04\13@140412 by Dario Greggio

face picon face
Hi Robert, in general I do agree with you (and it's sad) but...

Robert Rolf wrote:

> Can you read an 8" CP/M floppy? How about a Kaypro 5" disk? 1/2" 7 track magtape?

What I meant is that I always try to move my things (which do *all* fit
on a hard disc, since hard discs become larger and larger) to new
storage supports. Just to be safe.

Curious is, right now I have some files on a 5 1/4 floppy that I'd like
to read, because I probably forgot to copy them when I let that
technology go, back in 1995 or so...
I have a reader, floppies should still work, BIOS recognizes the FDD (a
P4 machine), but no luck :-(

--
Ciao, Dario

2007\04\13@141357 by Walter Banks

picon face
Storage technologies are advancing so fast that saving everything to the next
technology is a current strategy. When we hit the next CD/DVD bump with
only a 8 improvement or so increase this strategy becomes painful.

We have backups here on

8 track 600/1200/2400 bpi tapes
DECtape also 8 track tape on special reels and format
RK-05 "pizza platter" disks 2.4Mb
paper tape
Kanas City standard audio tapes
ADAM tape format (developed here)
3 different cartridge backup types
8 inch floppy disk in at least 3 incompatible formats
5 inch apple ][ ,PC and mac
3 1/2 apple, mac and PC formats in two densities
ZIP drive disc's
CD's
DVD's

None of these has lasted a particularly long time. the longest surviving
still in use is is probably 3 1/2 1.4M disks. The paper tape is the most
stable in we can engineer a new reliable reader at almost any time in
the future

w..


Robert Rolf wrote:

{Quote hidden}

2007\04\13@141727 by Walter Banks

picon face


Robert Rolf wrote:

> >>The archivists and historians of the next century are going to hate us since
> >>our historical records will end in the 1970's when everything went magnetic.
> >
> >
> > They will hate only those who *don't do backups* ;-)
>
> Can you read an 8" CP/M floppy?

I have a Terak (LSI 11) that will read low density CP?M disks. It is pretty ugly getting
from the Terak to anything else.

w..





2007\04\13@142224 by Robert Rolf

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Dario Greggio wrote:

> Hi Robert, in general I do agree with you (and it's sad) but...
>
> Robert Rolf wrote:
>
>
>>Can you read an 8" CP/M floppy? How about a Kaypro 5" disk? 1/2" 7 track magtape?
>
>
> What I meant is that I always try to move my things (which do *all* fit
> on a hard disc, since hard discs become larger and larger) to new
> storage supports. Just to be safe.
>
> Curious is, right now I have some files on a 5 1/4 floppy that I'd like
> to read, because I probably forgot to copy them when I let that

"Forgot to copy". EXACTLY the problem. Amazing how much valuable history is
found in unexpected places when homes are emptied of their contents during a move.

> technology go, back in 1995 or so...
> I have a reader, floppies should still work, BIOS recognizes the FDD (a
> P4 machine), but no luck :-(

Do you have a blank floppy you could check it with? Run the format command and
make sure that it's actually stepping the drive across the media.
If the format verifies (/V option?) it's probably an alignment issue.

 The lube on old FDDs gets
quite stiff and will drag the head quite far off track. I have found that one
can usually recover old data by using a 1.2MB drive on 360K media because the
narrower head gap has a wider track underneath so misalignment is less of an issue.

One can also bias the head position by orienting the drive so that the head is pulling or
pushing on the actuator. i.e. slot facing the ceiling or the floor.
Often it is as simple as cleaning the head with an alcohol based disk cleaner (white
nylon inside a disk sleeve. Do NOT use the 'fine sandpaper' style cleaners.
Old media sheds, so it may have just clogged the head.
Old media also looses magnetic strength so changing to a more sensitive drive
can help (I have an ancient Epson drive that can read just about anything I've thrown
at it).

And there are likely people around you have 'doorstop PCs' you could borrow to see
if you can read the media in them.

Robert

2007\04\13@143800 by David VanHorn

picon face
On 4/13/07, Robert Rolf <.....Robert.RolfKILLspamspam@spam@ualberta.ca> wrote:
> Funny how really primitive storage technologies like paper tape or black and white
> film are readable decades (or centuries) later, but modern ones like tape and disks
> are NOT.
> The archivists and historians of the next century are going to hate us since
> our historical records will end in the 1970's when everything went magnetic.

Read "Deep Time" by Gregory Benford.

2007\04\13@144255 by Dario Greggio

face picon face
Robert Rolf wrote:

> "Forgot to copy". EXACTLY the problem. Amazing how much valuable history is
> found in unexpected places when homes are emptied of their contents during a move.

indeed you're right ;-)
I did copy some 99.9% of my things, I try to do my homework year after
year...

> Do you have a blank floppy you could check it with? Run the format command and
> make sure that it's actually stepping the drive across the media.
> If the format verifies (/V option?) it's probably an alignment issue.

Thank you Robert, I'll do some tests maybe tomorrow: the reader has been
on my desk for 1 month now, after inital testing...

I actually was more oriented to the BIOS problem, but I'll take a closer
look...

--
Ciao, Dario

2007\04\13@150806 by Peter Todd

picon face
On Fri, Apr 13, 2007 at 12:22:22PM -0600, Robert Rolf wrote:

> "Forgot to copy". EXACTLY the problem. Amazing how much valuable history is
> found in unexpected places when homes are emptied of their contents during a move.

Yet, at the same time with digital stuff that people spend even a little
bit of effort keeping... will remain forever. I have programs I wrote
10 years ago, and I will have them 50 years from now. Exactly the same
as the day I typed them in. Why? Because keep a little (ha!) directory
called d/ which is backed up on three continents. And almost everything
I do I have in open-source revision control systems, either CVS or
subversion/SVK.

Can't say that with all the analog film pictures I've taken. Even
Kodakchrome fades in the long run.

Of course historians might find our choices of what to save rather
skewed for their purposes... heck, look at http://www.archive.org...

--
http://petertodd.ca

2007\04\13@201032 by Jinx

face picon face
> Amazing how much valuable history is found in unexpected places
> when homes are emptied of their contents during a move.

"There's money in 'vintage' computers"

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/story.cfm?c_id=5&objectid=10433882

2007\04\13@220317 by Recon

picon face
Jinx wrote:

>>Amazing how much valuable history is found in unexpected places
>>when homes are emptied of their contents during a move.
>>    
>>
>
>"There's money in 'vintage' computers"
>
>www.nzherald.co.nz/section/story.cfm?c_id=5&objectid=10433882
>  
>

In about 1978 I bought a commodore PET with the tiny keyboard for $600.
Alot of money back then.  I collected almost any books on it that I
could.  I had  a couple more dead ones for parts.(monitors dead)
When EBAY was a couple of years old I listed them on there and got about
$850 for all the stuff.

Recon

2007\04\14@170417 by Nestor A. Marchesini

flavicon
face
Hi Dario
I have a P4 with linux SO and me reader of 5 1/4 works perfectly
the only thing that I had to give turned the conectores of the cable
of the diskett in order that it take the of 3 1/2 as A (/dev/fd0) and
the of 5 1/4 as B (/dev/fd1).

Regards

Néstor A. Marchesini
Chajari-Entre Rios-Argentina
ICQ # 50983752 colo
MSN nestorm_desspamKILLspamhotmail.com
.....nestormKILLspamspam.....xinet.com.ar
EraseMEnestormspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTdeselectronica.com.ar

Dario Greggio escribió:
{Quote hidden}


'[PIC] Morse Code Firmware -- Paper Tape'
2007\05\18@015216 by William Chops Westfield
face picon face

On Apr 13, 2007, at 10:53 AM, Robert Rolf wrote:

> Can you read an 8" CP/M floppy? How about a Kaypro 5" disk? 1/2" 7
> track magtape?
>
Sure, given enough money.  "Enough" is probably even within the budget
of
archeological research, but well beyond what I feel like spending to
read
MY old high-school programs off of MY DECTape...

I suspect that modern technology can read old media that would no
longer be
readable on the original recording equipment.  Given time and money to
develop
a custom-designed reader.  Sorta like the way old vinyl recordings (or
paper
tape :-) can be read with high-resolution optical scanning...

BillW

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