Post by thread:[PIC] Microchip samples totally free again.

what happened? It confused people when it happens back and forth. Is the system malfunction? Funny N. Au Group Electronics, http://www.AuElectronics.com http://www.AuElectronics.com/products http://augroups.blogspot.com/ ________________________________ From: James Newton <.....jamesnewtonKILLspam@spam@massmind.org> To: piclistKILLspammit.edu Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2009 2:21:41 PM Subject: [PIC] Microchip samples totally free again. On Friday, Microchip is opening up the free sample program again for the US, UK, Italy and Germany. No more $7.50 S/H fee. --- James Newton .....jamesnewtonKILLspam.....massmind.org http://www.massmind.org/member/JMN-EFP-786

Maybe for the world out of North America. Funny N. Au Group Electronics, http://www.AuElectronics.com http://www.AuElectronics.com/products http://augroups.blogspot.com/ ________________________________ From: Dario Greggio <@spam@adpm.toKILLspaminwind.it> To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. <KILLspampiclistKILLspammit.edu> Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2009 3:37:04 PM Subject: Re: [PIC] Microchip samples totally free again. Funny NYPD ha scritto: > what happened? It confused people when it happens back and forth. Is the system malfunction? I guess that the "economy breakdown" is over... at least we hope so :)

I have just selected a 16F1934 and first it said S&H is $7.50, then I realised I was not logged in, so I did it, and then the S&H become $0 -- did not order anything yet though. Tamas On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 9:02 PM, Jan-Erik Soderholm < RemoveMEjan-erik.soderholmTakeThisOuTtelia.com> wrote: {Quote hidden}> Tamas Rudnai wrote: > > > It is free to Ireland as well :-) > > Now, how do you know that ? > > On this page: > > http://www.microchip.com/samples/CountryContactPopup.aspx > > it says : > > "The following list contains the countries that > are *not* supported for online samples..." > > And in the list below that text, Ireland *is* listed. > E.g. Germany and Italy is not... > > > -

Hmm, that list is weird -- if they did not change the rules, then I should be able to obtain the samples as I did that already once and the sample had arrived indeed. That was before they changed to the $7.50 S&H fee stuff... Anyway, I may try as I was considering the enhanced pic series anyway... Thanks, Tamas On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 9:18 PM, Tamas Rudnai <spamBeGonetamas.rudnaispamBeGonegmail.com>wrote: {Quote hidden}> I have just selected a 16F1934 and first it said S&H is $7.50, then I > realised I was not logged in, so I did it, and then the S&H become $0 -- did > not order anything yet though. > > Tamas > > > > On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 9:02 PM, Jan-Erik Soderholm < > TakeThisOuTjan-erik.soderholmEraseMEspam_OUTtelia.com> wrote: > >> Tamas Rudnai wrote: >> >> > It is free to Ireland as well :-) >> >> Now, how do you know that ? >> >> On this page: >> >> www.microchip.com/samples/CountryContactPopup.aspx >> >> it says : >> >> "The following list contains the countries that >> are *not* supported for online samples..." >> >> And in the list below that text, Ireland *is* listed. >> E.g. Germany and Italy is not... >> >> >> --

Jinx wrote: > Personally, paying for postage is not usually significant in the greater > scheme of things but you do get that 'snubbed' feeling I think the problem was that there were a abuses. You try to provide a convenience to your real customers and loads of dirtbags crawl out of the swamp, grab the freebies, and sell them on ebay. It's a tough ballance between getting abused and treating the people right you want to entice to your products. By the way, during the time of the shipping charge, shipping was still free with higher limits on number and frequency of samples for PIC consultants. ******************************************************************** Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products (978) 742-9014. Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2009/10/1 Jinx <EraseMEjoecolquittclear.net.nz>: >> There is any hope someday Latin American to be covered? > > Odd that Cuba appears to be supported, unless shipments to there > are restricted some other way > > I can't figure out the rationale of how a particular country is included. > You might expect very few, if any, requests from Bhutan and more > than a few from England (England ? Great Britain, please) > > > -- I hadn't been requesting sample from Microchip long before they decided to stop the sampling program. It really not a great concern for me. Just out of my own curiosity, I log on to my account and check what's happening. And I think if you go to the profile page under sample home (not the microchip direct or microchip home), you will see from the dropdown list. At the moment, I believe the online system accepts order from Australia, Canada, France, Germany, Italy, NZ, Puerto Rico, USA and UK. -- WH Tan

Jinx escreveu: >> There is any hope someday Latin American to be covered? >> > > Odd that Cuba appears to be supported, unless shipments to there > are restricted some other way > > I can't figure out the rationale of how a particular country is included. > You might expect very few, if any, requests from Bhutan and more > than a few from England (England ? Great Britain, please) > It is related to the import laws and taxes in the destination country. Brazil is not included because of our very restrictive import regulations and high taxes. Texas Instruments used to send free samples to Brazil, then they stopped and explained in their site that the new (at that time) regulations in Brazil made it too expensive to do so. Best regards, Isaac __________________________________________________ Faça ligações para outros computadores com o novo Yahoo! Messenger http://br.beta.messenger.yahoo.com/

----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Harris" <RemoveMEterry.harrisspam_OUTKILLspaminame.com> To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <RemoveMEpiclistTakeThisOuTspammit.edu> Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2009 7:07 PM Subject: Re: [PIC] Microchip samples totally free again. > On Wed, 30 Sep 2009 12:02:14 -0700 (PDT), you wrote: > >>what happened? It confused people when it happens back and forth. Is the >>system malfunction? > > Maybe they figured out a way to identify the people who were ordering > samples to sell on ebay? or they decided that the lost legitimate sampling opportunities (ie: to real engineers designing real products) was more costly than what they would end up giving away. Note that a real engineer, especially working for a big company would probably have to jump through several hoops to get the $7.50 s/h paid for sample orders (the bigger the company the bigger the hassle). -- Bob Ammerman RAm Systems

On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 11:46 PM, WH Tan <EraseMEwhsiung.myspamspamBeGonegmail.com> wrote: > Just out of my own curiosity, I log on to my account and check what's > happening. And I think if you go to the profile page under sample > home (not the microchip direct or microchip home), you will see from > the dropdown list. At the moment, I believe the online system accepts > order from Australia, Canada, France, Germany, Italy, NZ, Puerto Rico, > USA and UK. > Oh Gosh! Thanks for the tip! I have checked my account info, and as Ireland is no longer supported they set my home country automatically to Australia! I guess it is simply because that is the very first one on the supported list. So that's why it showed $0 fee when I have checked... (I have not looked at my profile before as I never could ever possible imagine that this kind of thing could happen...) Thanks Tamas > > > -- > WH Tan > -

On Wed, 30 Sep 2009 19:30:47 -0400, Bob Ammerman wrote: > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Terry Harris" <RemoveMEterry.harrisKILLspaminame.com> >To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <piclistSTOPspamspam_OUTmit.edu> >Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2009 7:07 PM >Subject: Re: [PIC] Microchip samples totally free again. > > >> On Wed, 30 Sep 2009 12:02:14 -0700 (PDT), you wrote: >> >>>what happened? It confused people when it happens back and forth. Is the >>>system malfunction? >> >> Maybe they figured out a way to identify the people who were ordering >> samples to sell on ebay? > >or they decided that the lost legitimate sampling opportunities (ie: to real >engineers designing real products) was more costly than what they would end >up giving away. Real engineers designing real products don't choose components on the basis of availability of free samples. Non-availability (in small quantities with short lead time) can be a factor but not having to pay a few dollars for them isn't. For simple components with a mechanical aspect like switches and connectors evaluation is mostly just looking at them and putting samples in engineers hands could be a worth while loss leader. The effort required to evaluate most Microchip products make paying a few dollars for the product to evaluate irrelevant. I very much doubt the $7.50 charge lost Microchip any design wins, it might have lost them some hobbyist/students who might one day be real engineers responsible for design wins, pretty speculative and we don't know how badly their sample service was being abused.

> > > Real engineers designing real products don't choose components on the basis > of availability of free samples. Non-availability (in small quantities with > short lead time) can be a factor but not having to pay a few dollars for > them isn't. > > For simple components with a mechanical aspect like switches and connectors > evaluation is mostly just looking at them and putting samples in engineers > hands could be a worth while loss leader. The effort required to evaluate > most Microchip products make paying a few dollars for the product to > evaluate irrelevant. > > I very much doubt the $7.50 charge lost Microchip any design wins, it might > have lost them some hobbyist/students who might one day be real engineers > responsible for design wins, pretty speculative and we don't know how badly > their sample service was being abused. > > As a college student, I sampled lots of PICs, but I also learned with them in my spare time. Starting with the 16F, going to 12F and 10F for small projects, then I started playing with C18, but never made it to dsPICs. Then I finished school and got a job. I was given sole authority on the design of my first project. I chose a PIC. Because Microchip sent me free samples, I became familiar with their product line and use their products as a hobbyist at home. Now I use them as a professional at work. I know this is an exceptional case, but their free samples got them another customer. Also, as Bob A. said, obtaining samples is a hassle when working for a big company. If they were free, I could simply order some and have them in a few days. But when charging for shipping, I have to submit a request to accounting, they have to approve, then send it over to purchasing (and hope they order the correct part/footprint/voltage-level). This is not a fast process. -Scott Larson

On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 2:05 AM, Terry Harris <spamBeGoneterry.harrisSTOPspamEraseMEiname.com> wrote: > Real engineers designing real products don't choose components on the basis > of availability of free samples. Non-availability (in small quantities with > short lead time) can be a factor but not having to pay a few dollars for > them isn't. > That's true, however, it could convince people who originally did not want to choose PIC but something else + some maybe real engineers(tm) will consider to use other PICs than they originall wanted to use (as the parameters are similar, price might be better, but they just never used that part before so they would not pick those otherwise). If Microchip would not do it free then I was not care too much, maybe will order some parts from Digikey next time when I order some other stuff and as the delivery is free (as it bundled it with those other stuff that is more than €65 already) it could be even cheaper than that $7.50 fee -- or maybe I will not even order at all and will not consider to use this or that device in the near or far feature, who knows? Tamas

On Wed, 30 Sep 2009 21:41:10 -0400, you wrote: >Also, as Bob A. said, obtaining samples is a hassle when working for a big >company. If they were free, I could simply order some and have them in a few >days. But when charging for shipping, I have to submit a request to >accounting, they have to approve, then send it over to purchasing (and hope >they order the correct part/footprint/voltage-level). This is not a fast >process. But a process you would still have to use for all the other bits and a PCB to put them on. You can't evaluate a processor chip by looking at it.

Unless you have some kind of generic PCB or other breadboard prototyping board. I often throw something together initially on a plug-in breadboard or solder it together on pad-per-hole or three-hole-pattern proto PCB. And yes, I am talking about work-related stuff, not just hobby work. Even for my day job, I don't have money or time to get a PCB made just to evaluate a part. Sean On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 10:10 PM, Terry Harris <KILLspamterry.harrisspamBeGoneiname.com> wrote: {Quote hidden}> On Wed, 30 Sep 2009 21:41:10 -0400, you wrote: > >>Also, as Bob A. said, obtaining samples is a hassle when working for a big >>company. If they were free, I could simply order some and have them in a few >>days. But when charging for shipping, I have to submit a request to >>accounting, they have to approve, then send it over to purchasing (and hope >>they order the correct part/footprint/voltage-level). This is not a fast >>process. > > But a process you would still have to use for all the other bits and a PCB > to put them on. You can't evaluate a processor chip by looking at it. > > -

On Sep 30, 2009, at 6:41 PM, Scott wrote: > Because Microchip sent me free samples, I became familiar with their > product line and use their products as a hobbyist at home. Now I use > them as a professional at work. > I know this is an exceptional case, but their free samples got them > another customer. I doubt that it's that exceptional. I still have a fond spot in my heart for Analog Devices, who sent me a sample A-D converter for my college design project. 25+ years ago... > as Bob A. said, obtaining samples is a hassle when working for a big > company. If they were free, I could simply order some and have them > in a few days. But when charging for shipping, I have to submit a > request to accounting, they have to approve... Bah. If you work for a big company, and you're actually interested in a particular PIC, you call up your rep and say "could you bring me some samples of XXXX" and you can get them in a couple of hours (or sent to you, free, in a couple of days, if there is no local office that has them in stock.) I can see the non-freeness of "low overhead samples" cutting down on "speculative" sampling, though. There are probably a bunch of people "somewhat interested" in the new PIC16 enhanced architecture who didn't have a compelling case to put themselves or their reps through such a sampling process. It depends on how important it is to microchip to push NEW product over old standbys. A liberal sampling policy increases the RANGE of a particular vendor's products that I might look at, especially when there are as many products as there are at Microchip. BillW

I'd agree very much with Bob. In my company it would take a week just to get approval for the $7.50. It's not that I wouldn't get it but it's a hassle. If it's free I don't have to deal with requisitions and approvals etc. >> I very much doubt the $7.50 charge lost Microchip any design wins, it >> might >> have lost them some hobbyist/students who might one day be real engineers >> responsible for design wins, pretty speculative and we don't know how >> badly >> their sample service was being abused. > >Not the charge, it is the hassle. Again, especially in big companies. -- Bob Ammerman RAm Systems Bryon

Yes, it's about the paperwork. Because if it cost $30 to get a sample it would have the same effect as if it cost $7.50. I did have to do a P.O. to get a PIC32 starter kit, and in deciding which one to get, I just got both, because I could easily spend $50 just soliciting opinions. > You can't evaluate a processor chip by looking at it. The EE's build the boards, I write the firmware, and I won't see any real hardware for another month or two. If I can cobble something together right now, I have a jump on the project. I've also sampled pin-compatible upgrade versions of some PICs and had the technicians swap the parts out on a production board. That way I can state with confidence that changing over will work. I don't think the concept of "getting something to play with" plays all that well, but then again, I don't have to explain what I'm doing :) I ordered a DIP version of a USB PIC and proceeded to breadboard up something to try out. Sure enough the USB applications started being called for in the real products. It's not the first time this sort of thing has happened.

Bah! I am still excluded - in South Africa. The only option with Microchipdirect is $22 shipping via courier, excluding import taxes and couriers brokerage fee on that paperwork (splutter cough cough). Based on Fedex/DHL/UPS quotes ( for Digikey / Mouser) I get to pay between $80-$120 dollars. For my hobby stuff I would rather have an option of being economical with postage and pay for the chips. Or get free samples that takes 3 weeks to arrive - like with Maxim. So, c'mon Microchip, put us on the map.

LS, I maybe have glasses (:-))but could someone explain to me why Microchip does send samples to Italy, France and Germany but not to other Europeancountries like the Netherland and Belgium? One may exept that sending from the UK to one country in the area they should do so whit other. Harry {Quote hidden}> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: EraseMEpiclist-bouncesEraseMEmit.edu [@spam@piclist-bounces@spam@spam_OUTmit.edu] > Namens James Newton > Verzonden: woensdag 30 september 2009 20:22 > Aan: spamBeGonepiclistKILLspammit.edu > Onderwerp: [PIC] Microchip samples totally free again. > > On Friday, Microchip is opening up the free sample program > again for the US, UK, Italy and Germany. No more $7.50 S/H fee. > > --- > James Newton > .....jamesnewtonspam_OUTmassmind.org > http://www.massmind.org/member/JMN-EFP-786 > > > -

I guess they made a calculation of how many samples they have sent to a particular country / how many they have sold... What I am not sure how did they calculate if a company has the production somwere else than the headquarters... Tamas On Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 8:12 AM, Harry H. Arends <TakeThisOuTh.arends.....TakeThisOuThome.nl> wrote: {Quote hidden}> LS, > > I maybe have glasses (:-))but could someone explain to me why > Microchip does send samples to Italy, France and Germany but not to > other Europeancountries like the Netherland and Belgium? > One may exept that sending from the UK to one country in the area they > should do so whit other. > > Harry > > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > > Van: TakeThisOuTpiclist-bouncesKILLspamspammit.edu [.....piclist-bouncesRemoveMEmit.edu] > > Namens James Newton > > Verzonden: woensdag 30 september 2009 20:22 > > Aan: RemoveMEpiclistspamBeGonemit.edu > > Onderwerp: [PIC] Microchip samples totally free again. > > > > On Friday, Microchip is opening up the free sample program > > again for the US, UK, Italy and Germany. No more $7.50 S/H fee. > > > > --- > > James Newton > > spamBeGonejamesnewton@spam@spam_OUTmassmind.org > > http://www.massmind.org/member/JMN-EFP-786 > > > > > > --

Vis Naicker wrote: > Bah! I am still excluded - in South Africa. > > ... > > So, c'mon Microchip, put us on the map. I suspect they have thought about it and decided not to. Some countries have import laws that make it a pain, and if you're giving something away for free it's easy to decide it's not worth the bother. Then some countries are known for excessive abuse, stuff routinely "falls off a truck", official expect to get paid off, there is the risk of stuff arriving with bullet holes in it, etc. I don't know what the situation with South Africa is, but it's almost certainly on your end. If you want it fixed you need to convince your government, not Microchip. ******************************************************************** Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products (978) 742-9014. Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

On Fri, 2 Oct 2009 07:37:06 +0200, "Vis Naicker" <TakeThisOuTvisnspamwbs.co.za> said: > Bah! I am still excluded - in South Africa. > For my hobby stuff I would rather have an option of being economical with > postage and pay for the chips. My experience with mailing packages to/from South Africa was that economical methods of mailing were quite unreliable, almost a third of the packages never arrive. This causes many different types of problems for retailers. I expect Microchip wants packages to arrive and only the more expensive options work for them. Maybe it costs more than they are willing to pay to deliver samples so they make the customer pay. South Africa is a serious enough market, I doubt they are merely being snooty. Cheerful regards, Bob -- http://www.fastmail.fm - The professional email service

In message <011601ca4217$8514e2e0$5d0010acEraseMEradianse.com>, Olin Lathrop <RemoveMEolin_piclistEraseMEspam_OUTembedinc.com> writes >Jinx wrote: >> Personally, paying for postage is not usually significant in the greater >> scheme of things but you do get that 'snubbed' feeling > >I think the problem was that there were a abuses. You try to provide a >convenience to your real customers and loads of dirtbags crawl out of the >swamp, grab the freebies, and sell them on ebay. Totally agree, it's an amazing coincidence how many auctions were for multiples of three PIC chips. >******************************************************************** >Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products >(978) 742-9014. Gold level PIC consultants since 2000. -- Clint Sharp

Bryon.Sol@us.interplex.com wrote: > I'd agree very much with Bob. In my company it would take a week just > to get approval for the $7.50. It's not that I wouldn't get it but > it's a hassle. If it's free I don't have to deal with requisitions > and approvals etc. Can't you guys who are suffering under such a situation get something like a monthly "low overhead" budget? Where you don't have to ask for permission up front, but have to be able to justify the expenses? May need a bit "fighting" to get there, but I guess it would be worth it :) Gerhard

Isaac Marino Bavaresco wrote: > Jinx escreveu: >> I can't figure out the rationale of how a particular country is >> included. You might expect very few, if any, requests from Bhutan >> and more than a few from England (England ? Great Britain, please) > > It is related to the import laws and taxes in the destination > country. Brazil is not included because of our very restrictive > import regulations and high taxes. > > Texas Instruments used to send free samples to Brazil, then they > stopped and explained in their site that the new (at that time) > regulations in Brazil made it too expensive to do so. At one time, I ordered some free samples, I think from TI. They arrived with an invoice that stated the list value of the samples, and a discount to make the total 0. I got charged the standard import tax (which is close to 100%, after everything is added up) on the sample value. That was not fun... Gerhard

> @spam@Bryon.SolRemoveMEEraseMEus.interplex.com wrote: > >> I'd agree very much with Bob. In my company it would take a week just >> to get approval for the $7.50. It's not that I wouldn't get it but >> it's a hassle. If it's free I don't have to deal with requisitions >> and approvals etc. Just my 2c... When Sanghi announced that they were discontinuing their free samples program due to abuse, I immediately thought to myself that they're throwing the baby out with the bath water. What they really need to do, is weed out the people who are abusing the system. It's not difficult, they can: - By default allow customers who purchased anything worth $X to get the free samples. - Allow customers to enable this functionality by contacting their sales reps or FAEs This would eliminate 95%+ of the waste, while causing a minimum of inconvenience to the customers. Vitaliy P.S. Many businesses when faced with fraud have the same knee jerk reaction; I feel amused when websites inform me that they no longer ship their products outside the US. Fraud will happen, it's one of the costs of doing business, no need to get emotional about it. After we lost money on a couple of fraudulent transactions, we developed a few simple rules, and trained the sales reps on how to spot suspicious orders. Shutting out your storefront to the world to punish a thief who would never again buy from you anyway, is not wise.

On Sat, 2009-10-10 at 02:17 -0700, Vitaliy wrote: {Quote hidden}> > @spam@Bryon.Solspam_OUT.....us.interplex.com wrote: > > > >> I'd agree very much with Bob. In my company it would take a week just > >> to get approval for the $7.50. It's not that I wouldn't get it but > >> it's a hassle. If it's free I don't have to deal with requisitions > >> and approvals etc. > > Just my 2c... When Sanghi announced that they were discontinuing their free > samples program due to abuse, I immediately thought to myself that they're > throwing the baby out with the bath water. > > What they really need to do, is weed out the people who are abusing the > system. It's not difficult, they can: > > - By default allow customers who purchased anything worth $X to get the free > samples. > - Allow customers to enable this functionality by contacting their sales > reps or FAEs > > This would eliminate 95%+ of the waste, while causing a minimum of > inconvenience to the customers. Except of course for those whom samples may be most useful (to both the person and to the company) for: hobbyists and students, neither of which have "sales reps" or "FAEs" in their address books. TTYL

On Oct 10, 2009, at 2:17 AM, Vitaliy wrote: > - By default allow customers who purchased anything worth $X to get > the free samples. > - Allow customers to enable this functionality by contacting their > sales reps or FAEs What makes you think that this wasn't the case during the "non-free" period? I always assumed that the shipping charges applied mostly to the web-based "automatic" free samples, and if I wanted to I could have abused my status as a "professional" (big company that uses PICs, but not by me directly, except as a hobbyist) and gotten any samples I wanted entirely for free. Probably with "big company" limits, too... BillW

Herbert Graf wrote: >> This would eliminate 95%+ of the waste, while causing a minimum of >> inconvenience to the customers. > > Except of course for those whom samples may be most useful (to both the > person and to the company) for: hobbyists and students, neither of which > have "sales reps" or "FAEs" in their address books. I was a student and a hobbyist not that long ago, and I hear what you're saying, but let's be real: neither students nor hobbyists are a significant revenue source for Microchip. And people can be very careless when they're spending other people's money. As several people have attested, for engineers of big companies the problem is not the cost of shipping that is the problem, but the hassle of submitting a PO through their purchasing department. For students and hobbyists, there is always Digikey or their local retailer. I know that Microchip works closely with schools and unversities, providing dev tools and micros. They sponsor contests (Circuit Cellar, etc) and give away samples at the trade shows. How about this alternative for students: have their accounts verified by their professor, or ship the free samples only to university/college/high school addresses? Vitaliy

William "Chops" Westfield" wrote: > On Oct 10, 2009, at 2:17 AM, Vitaliy wrote: >> - By default allow customers who purchased anything worth $X to get >> the free samples. >> - Allow customers to enable this functionality by contacting their >> sales reps or FAEs > > What makes you think that this wasn't the case during the "non-free" > period? I always assumed that the shipping charges applied mostly to > the web-based "automatic" free samples, and if I wanted to I could > have abused my status as a "professional" (big company that uses PICs, > but not by me directly, except as a hobbyist) and gotten any samples I > wanted entirely for free. Probably with "big company" limits, too... I remember ordering free samples using my student account, and my fellow students did the same. Registration and ordering where completely automatic. Vitaliy

On Oct 10, 2009, at 1:01 PM, Vitaliy wrote: > let's be real: neither students nor hobbyists are a significant > revenue source for Microchip. It's called "mindshare." Students and hobbyists might be a significant source of FUTURE revenue. Microchip was a pretty small company back when parallax and other "hobbyist" vendors first started selling 18pin PICs and (relatively) cheap programmers. A generation later, they were a major force in the microcontroller marketplace. Coincidence? (Meanwhile, Motorola gained a horrible reputation because their microcontrollers were difficult to obtain except to major corporations.) Of course, things are a lot better for the hobbyist than they used to be. There are lots of reputable vendors, and even manufacturers, selling all sorts of microcontrollers at reasonable prices, with fast delivery. Some of this is due to increased automation and such, but some of it is at the manufacturers' discretion. It used to be that if you were a retailer catering to hobbyists, the manufacturer just wouldn't sell them to you, either. > And people can be very careless when they're spending other people's > money. I figure the automated free sample system is largely a realization that it's a lot cheaper overall to (nearly automatically) ship out samples to "maybes" than to have qualified personnel screen for "realness." An hour of FAE time would buy a lot of $1 parts... BillW

On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 5:17 PM, Vitaliy <spamBeGonepiclistEraseMEmaksimov.org> wrote: > Just my 2c... When Sanghi announced that they were discontinuing their free > samples program due to abuse, I immediately thought to myself that they're > throwing the baby out with the bath water. > > What they really need to do, is weed out the people who are abusing the > system. It's not difficult, they can: > > - By default allow customers who purchased anything worth $X > to get the free samples. > - Allow customers to enable this functionality by contacting their > sales reps or FAEs > > This would eliminate 95%+ of the waste, while causing a minimum of > inconvenience to the customers. > For work, I do not even bother with the web sampling system. Just a call to the Microchip FAE to get the samples for me. So this is not really an issue with the revenue-generating customers or potential big customers. Only for non-work-related things I used the web-sampling system and I informed local Microchip FAE about it. But once the free sampling was gone, I have not used the web-sampling system. I do not want to pay for the shipment and I do not have real need to get more samples -- I buy demo boards to test PIC24/PIC32 and not building anything at home. So your proposal is not the solution. The issue is to deal with abuse. Actually they already had kind of a system in place. The samples arrived in the local sales office, they could filter out some abusers. The problem may be that Microchip may not have presence in certain areas and the time spent may not be worth it. -- Xiaofan http://mcuee.blogspot.com

On Sun, Oct 11, 2009 at 12:19 AM, Herbert Graf <hkgrafspamBeGonegmail.com> wrote: > > Except of course for those whom samples may be most useful (to both the > person and to the company) for: hobbyists and students, neither of which > have "sales reps" or "FAEs" in their address books. > For students, there are other channels. Typically the school can contact the local FAEs for help. Microchip is eager to be in the classroom. For hobbyists, it is a bit problematic. But the I think students are more important for Microchip's future. ;-) -- Xiaofan http://mcuee.blogspot.com

On Sun, 2009-10-11 at 09:34 +0800, Xiaofan Chen wrote: > On Sun, Oct 11, 2009 at 12:19 AM, Herbert Graf <RemoveMEhkgraf@spam@spamBeGonegmail.com> wrote: > > > > Except of course for those whom samples may be most useful (to both the > > person and to the company) for: hobbyists and students, neither of which > > have "sales reps" or "FAEs" in their address books. > > > > For students, there are other channels. Typically the school can contact > the local FAEs for help. Microchip is eager to be in the classroom. > For hobbyists, it is a bit problematic. But the I think students are more > important for Microchip's future. ;-) I strongly disagree with that statement. Hobbyists often ARE students. They simply are doing things that aren't controlled by the school. I never touched a PIC in school till my 4th year design project, before that all my work was "hobbyist". FWIW my school used motorola alot, everybody here knows how impossible it was for a hobbyist to get any motorola part at that time. Schools have their place, but to think that only school work affects future work is incorrect. TTYL

On Sat, 2009-10-10 at 13:01 -0700, Vitaliy wrote: > Herbert Graf wrote: > >> This would eliminate 95%+ of the waste, while causing a minimum of > >> inconvenience to the customers. > > > > Except of course for those whom samples may be most useful (to both the > > person and to the company) for: hobbyists and students, neither of which > > have "sales reps" or "FAEs" in their address books. > > I was a student and a hobbyist not that long ago, and I hear what you're > saying, but let's be real: neither students nor hobbyists are a significant > revenue source for Microchip. Very true. But remember, samples have TWO purposes for many companies, one of those being to get FUTURE customers used to your product so that they choose your product when they become a big customer. > As several people have attested, for engineers of big companies the problem > is not the cost of shipping that is the problem, but the hassle of > submitting a PO through their purchasing department. For students and > hobbyists, there is always Digikey or their local retailer. As a student I simply used parts I could get free as samples and didn't usually consider parts that I couldn't get samples for. To this day, I tend to gravitate to manufacturers that gave me samples in the past, simply because I am "used" to them (used to their website, their datasheets, their product lines). Granted I do check the competition and will choose those parts if there is a clear reason to. When there isn't much of a diff, I go with the TI, Analog, National, Maxim or MChip parts. > I know that Microchip works closely with schools and unversities, providing > dev tools and micros. They sponsor contests (Circuit Cellar, etc) and give > away samples at the trade shows. > > How about this alternative for students: have their accounts verified by > their professor, or ship the free samples only to university/college/high > school addresses? Way too much work, on both the students part (much of my work during school wasn't FOR school), the profs (trust me, they are not interested in more work) and the companies (confirming a prof is a prof?). As a student I would have considered a manu requiring this not worth my time given their competition didn't have those requirements. TTYL

On Fri, 2009-10-09 at 19:52 -0300, Gerhard Fiedler wrote: > .....Bryon.Sol@spam@EraseMEus.interplex.com wrote: > > > I'd agree very much with Bob. In my company it would take a week just > > to get approval for the $7.50. It's not that I wouldn't get it but > > it's a hassle. If it's free I don't have to deal with requisitions > > and approvals etc. > > Can't you guys who are suffering under such a situation get something > like a monthly "low overhead" budget? Where you don't have to ask for > permission up front, but have to be able to justify the expenses? May > need a bit "fighting" to get there, but I guess it would be worth it :) Usually the answer is a very loud "no". I've had the experience of working for a company that was initially a little smaller and very nimble. It was then bought out and now we're big, and it's amazing how so many "simple" things now are alot of paperwork to get accomplished. It's very frustrating, but it's simply how things work in bigger companies I suppose. TTYL

On Sun, Oct 11, 2009 at 5:10 AM, William "Chops" Westfield <.....westfwRemoveMEmac.com> wrote: >> And people can be very careless when they're spending other people's >> money. > > I figure the automated free sample system is largely a realization > that it's a lot cheaper overall to (nearly automatically) ship out > samples to "maybes" than to have qualified personnel screen for > "realness." An hour of FAE time would buy a lot of $1 parts... The problem is that when it comes to cost-down ideas when the Lean/Six-Sigma Department is running out of other ideas, this is apparently an easy target. ;-) -- Xiaofan http://mcuee.blogspot.com

On Sun, Oct 11, 2009 at 6:54 AM, Herbert Graf <.....hkgrafSTOPspam@spam@gmail.com> wrote: > Usually the answer is a very loud "no". > > I've had the experience of working for a company that was initially a > little smaller and very nimble. It was then bought out and now we're > big, and it's amazing how so many "simple" things now are alot of > paperwork to get accomplished. It's very frustrating, but it's simply > how things work in bigger companies I suppose. > Often this is called "Process Oriented". There are many SOP "Standard Operating Procedures". Often simple things becomes very complicated. You spend a lot of time on the process and associated documentations and much less time on real designs and innovations. There are some upsides in this approach. For example, things become slightly easier when someone leaves the company since the documentations are there. But in reality, often the real design know-hows are not in the standard documentation but with the designer. -- Xiaofan http://mcuee.blogspot.com

Herbert Graf wrote: >> > I'd agree very much with Bob. In my company it would take a week just >> > to get approval for the $7.50. It's not that I wouldn't get it but >> > it's a hassle. If it's free I don't have to deal with requisitions >> > and approvals etc. >> >> Can't you guys who are suffering under such a situation get something >> like a monthly "low overhead" budget? Where you don't have to ask for >> permission up front, but have to be able to justify the expenses? May >> need a bit "fighting" to get there, but I guess it would be worth it :) > > Usually the answer is a very loud "no". > > I've had the experience of working for a company that was initially a > little smaller and very nimble. It was then bought out and now we're > big, and it's amazing how so many "simple" things now are alot of > paperwork to get accomplished. It's very frustrating, but it's simply > how things work in bigger companies I suppose. I don't know about bigger companies, but we made the conscious decision that we will not make our employees jump through hoops whenever they need to buy a handful of chips or a box of staples. Every employee has a company credit card and is authorized to buy tools and supplies that they need to do their work. I am a strong believer in personal responsibility over "company rules". Vitaliy

Xiaofan Chen wrote: > There are some upsides in this approach. For example, > things become slightly easier when someone leaves the > company since the documentations are there. But in reality, > often the real design know-hows are not in the standard > documentation but with the designer. Exactly. That's why we no longer try to committ everything to paper -- the ROI is very low. It's better to spend the time and resources on creating new products and making sure that the designer is happy. Vitaliy

Herbert Graf wrote: > Very true. But remember, samples have TWO purposes for many companies, > one of those being to get FUTURE customers used to your product so that > they choose your product when they become a big customer. I agree. >> How about this alternative for students: have their accounts verified by >> their professor, or ship the free samples only to university/college/high >> school addresses? > > Way too much work, on both the students part (much of my work during > school wasn't FOR school), the profs (trust me, they are not interested > in more work) and the companies (confirming a prof is a prof?). As a > student I would have considered a manu requiring this not worth my time > given their competition didn't have those requirements. Well OK, how about just requiring that the package be shipped to a school address and addressed to a Prof.? Remember that we're talking about a potentially "all-or-nothing" situation. If Microchip can easily write off the losses due to abuse, there's nothing to argue about. However back in August they said that the scammers forced them to cancel the free samples program, so it must have been serious enough. In any case, the bottom line is that they can find ways to stop the abuse without causing too much inconvenience to the legitimate users. Vitaliy

Herbert Graf wrote: {Quote hidden}>> > Except of course for those whom samples may be most useful (to both the >> > person and to the company) for: hobbyists and students, neither of >> > which >> > have "sales reps" or "FAEs" in their address books. >> > >> >> For students, there are other channels. Typically the school can contact >> the local FAEs for help. Microchip is eager to be in the classroom. >> For hobbyists, it is a bit problematic. But the I think students are more >> important for Microchip's future. ;-) > > I strongly disagree with that statement. Hobbyists often ARE students. > They simply are doing things that aren't controlled by the school. > > I never touched a PIC in school till my 4th year design project, before > that all my work was "hobbyist". > > FWIW my school used motorola alot, everybody here knows how impossible > it was for a hobbyist to get any motorola part at that time. > > Schools have their place, but to think that only school work affects > future work is incorrect. I agree with you, Herbert. My first micro was PIC, but I had the same experience: the college I attended focused almost exclusively on Motorola processors. Vitaliy

On Oct 14, 2009, at 12:05 AM, Vitaliy wrote: > how about just requiring that the package be shipped to a school > address and addressed to a Prof. What part of "profs don't want more work" didn't you understand? Actually, a couple of manufacturers (National?) have said (at some time in their sample program) that they'll only ship samples requested from a valid .EDU email addresses (and .com); no more using the generic email providers like gmail, yahoo, etc... That sort-of works, but has its own set of issues... BillW

I don't get this point at all. Some educational institutions don't have a .edu for its home. How contour this? Maybe registranting these institutions who could not fit in the model. I don`t know if it will work. It's a strange way to promote (or do not) their products in students' mind. On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 5:04 AM, William "Chops" Westfield <westfwEraseME@spam@mac.com>wrote: {Quote hidden}> > On Oct 14, 2009, at 12:05 AM, Vitaliy wrote: > > > how about just requiring that the package be shipped to a school > > address and addressed to a Prof. > > > What part of "profs don't want more work" didn't you understand? > > Actually, a couple of manufacturers (National?) have said (at some > time in their sample program) that they'll only ship samples requested > from a valid .EDU email addresses (and .com); no more using the > generic email providers like gmail, yahoo, etc... That sort-of works, > but has its own set of issues... > > BillW > > -

> I've had the experience of working for a company that was > initially a little smaller and very nimble. It was then bought > out and now we're big, and it's amazing how so many "simple" > things now are alot of paperwork to get accomplished. It's > very frustrating, but it's simply how things work in bigger > companies I suppose. I work for a government laboratory, and they introduced 'company' credit cards for individuals to get around this problem, as they recognised that a lot of time and effort was being spent by the purchasing department dealing with small orders because people used RS Components and Farnell as JIT suppliers for the small quantities of parts that most people use. Now we are being re-organised (yet again) and the credit cards are being called into question ...

Vitaliy wrote: > Well OK, how about just requiring that the package be shipped to a > school address and addressed to a Prof.? LOL. We used to make up all kinds of fancy sounding names for dorm room addresses. Some actually were to get samples. Intel required something like that at the time if I remember right. Others were for entertainment. One was to see how many credit card solicitations (extra points for pre-approved) we could attract to a bogus person. We made up names of professors, deans, and even company CEOs. The post office doesn't care what the name is above the address. They just deliver to the address. For example: Moe Ron DeDuphous, president Intergalactic MegaCorp Room B302, BARH 110 8th Street Troy, NY 12180 Unless you happen to be familiar with RPI you'd probably not guess that address is a dorm room. A letter addressed like that would get delivered to the mailbox for room B302 in the Burdette Avenue Residence Hall (locally known as BARH), which is a student dorm. The post office will deliver to the RPI mail feed at 110 8th Street, and the RPI internal mail will deliver to BARH B302. They don't care what it says above that, although they'd probably get a chuckle out of it. ******************************************************************** Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products (978) 742-9014. Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

On Wed, 2009-10-14 at 00:05 -0700, Vitaliy wrote: > >> How about this alternative for students: have their accounts verified by > >> their professor, or ship the free samples only to university/college/high > >> school addresses? > > > > Way too much work, on both the students part (much of my work during > > school wasn't FOR school), the profs (trust me, they are not interested > > in more work) and the companies (confirming a prof is a prof?). As a > > student I would have considered a manu requiring this not worth my time > > given their competition didn't have those requirements. > > Well OK, how about just requiring that the package be shipped to a school > address and addressed to a Prof.? Again, Profs are busy and trust me: they don't want the bother. And, what about work that has nothing to do with school (which was almost all my PIC work)? > Remember that we're talking about a potentially "all-or-nothing" situation. > If Microchip can easily write off the losses due to abuse, there's nothing > to argue about. However back in August they said that the scammers forced > them to cancel the free samples program, so it must have been serious > enough. Sounds more like bean counters got their hands on things. As for "all or nothing", having it sent to a Prof is WORSE then nothing to me since I'd rather not have something then have the Prof secretly annoyed with me. > In any case, the bottom line is that they can find ways to stop the abuse > without causing too much inconvenience to the legitimate users. If that were the case they'd all implement those "ways". TTYL

Herbert Graf wrote: >> >> How about this alternative for students: have their accounts verified >> >> by >> >> their professor, or ship the free samples only to >> >> university/college/high >> >> school addresses? >> > >> > Way too much work, on both the students part (much of my work during >> > school wasn't FOR school), the profs (trust me, they are not interested >> > in more work) and the companies (confirming a prof is a prof?). As a >> > student I would have considered a manu requiring this not worth my time >> > given their competition didn't have those requirements. >> >> Well OK, how about just requiring that the package be shipped to a school >> address and addressed to a Prof.? > > Again, Profs are busy and trust me: they don't want the bother. And, > what about work that has nothing to do with school (which was almost all > my PIC work)? Maybe my experience is unique, but I don't see a problem here. Most of my professors would not mind accepting a package for me. I know that for instance Advanced Circuits gives discounts to students, but the boards have to be shipped to a college or university address. >> Remember that we're talking about a potentially "all-or-nothing" >> situation. >> If Microchip can easily write off the losses due to abuse, there's >> nothing >> to argue about. However back in August they said that the scammers forced >> them to cancel the free samples program, so it must have been serious >> enough. > > Sounds more like bean counters got their hands on things. IIRC Sanghi said the cost of the program was in the tens of millions ($60M/y?). If I were in charge, I would definitely consider pulling the plug on the free samples, versus laying off several hundred engineers. > As for "all or > nothing", having it sent to a Prof is WORSE then nothing to me since I'd > rather not have something then have the Prof secretly annoyed with me. I'm sorry to hear that you didn't have a good relationship with your professors. >> In any case, the bottom line is that they can find ways to stop the abuse >> without causing too much inconvenience to the legitimate users. > > If that were the case they'd all implement those "ways". Why do you assume they didn't? I bet that the change in policy (how many times you can order and how many samples at a time) was initiated by someone who looked at the patterns and figured that this change would make it less convenient for the scammers to get the stuff in sufficient volumes. Vitaliy

Olin Lathrop wrote: >> Well OK, how about just requiring that the package be shipped to a >> school address and addressed to a Prof.? > > LOL. We used to make up all kinds of fancy sounding names for dorm room > addresses. I cited our experience with fraudulent orders. The only sure way to prevent them is to not ship any orders. A better solution is to try to maximize the inconvenience to the scammers while minimizing the impact on legitimate customers. It's not that hard, you just follow the same basic techniques you use for designing a bandpass filter to separate noise from useful signal. We had only one fraudulent order go past the filters in the past 12 months. When you compare this number to the number of legitimate sales, it's nothing to get upset about. Sure, people will find exploit the loopholes, but as long as the major holes are plugged up you're OK. Vitaliy

On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 3:25 AM, Vitaliy <RemoveMEpiclistspamBeGonemaksimov.org> wrote: > Herbert Graf wrote: >> Sounds more like bean counters got their hands on things. > > IIRC Sanghi said the cost of the program was in the tens of millions > ($60M/y?). If I were in charge, I would definitely consider pulling the plug > on the free samples, versus laying off several hundred engineers. Wow, is it really $60 million? I doubt that is true. But if that number is correct, then it is quite right to reduce that number. >> If that were the case they'd all implement those "ways". > > Why do you assume they didn't? I bet that the change in policy (how many > times you can order and how many samples at a time) was initiated by > someone who looked at the patterns and figured that this change would > make it less convenient for the scammers to get the stuff in sufficient > volumes. Still some legitimate users may have already got some bad impressions about Microchip because of this change. Things are changing. I have to tell the local Microchip FAEs about free hardware tools and eval boards other vendors are providing. I also tell them about the lower cost chips other MCU vendors are offerings which makes 16bit/32bit Microchip MCUs really not that competitive. We do buy tools from other vendors as well. But often we got free eval boards from other vendors to get started. We did borrow some tools from Microchip for a small design. But in the end, we bought the tools instead. They are not expensive after all. Still a free tool might help. -- Xiaofan http://mcuee.blogspot.com