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'[PIC] I'm new with PICs'
2010\04\12@192406 by Mario =?utf-8?Q?Castel=C3=A1n?= Castro n/a

picon face

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April 12th 2010 in spam_OUTpiclistTakeThisOuTspammit.edu therad "[PIC] I'm new with PICs".

Hi.

I want to start programming microcontrollers in GNU/Linux with free
software.

First, I want to know what is the difference of PIC16F84A againsting
PIC12F683/C683 because I can buy one (or two) of those models.  What is
your advice?.

Second, I also need a programmer compatible with free software.  I
don't use propietary software because I valuate my freedom but first I
must choise the microcontroller to use, and then the programmer
acording to the first, true?.

My first "project" will be a blinking LED in order to check all
software and hardware is working fine, then I wish make a frecuency
meter in the SLF range so I can measure the exact frecuency of the
mains :D.

Taking into account I live in Veracruz, México where I can buy the
required parts?  There are several electronic store in the city but
the microcontrollers supply is very narrow :S.

BTW I also read several refercences to David Tait wich mantained
GNUPIC about PIC development with free software.  But gnupic.org
contains only spam now, what did happen to that site?, It is on a new
url?.

Thanks in advance :) and excuse my bad english, I'm native spanish
speaker.
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2010\04\12@193212 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 7:25 AM, Mario Castelán Castro <.....marioxccKILLspamspam@spam@gnu.org> wrote:

> I want to start programming microcontrollers in GNU/Linux with free
> software.
>

Go here.
http://web.archive.org/web/20080607050155/http://www.gnupic.org/

The following forum provides addition more current info.
http://www.microchip.com/forums/tt.aspx?forumid=182

Programmer: PICKit 2 with pk2cmd or others
Assembler: gputils
Compiler: sdcc
IDE: Piklab and Pikdev
Simulator: gpsim



--
Xiaofan http://mcuee.blogspot.com

2010\04\12@195026 by RANDY ABERNATHY

flavicon
face
Try the following link for GNU 
 
http://www.gnupic.dds.nl 
 
I think you will find that is the newer URL for GNU.  It now contains data, source code and other information for additional microcontroller in addition to the MicroChip PIC products.  You can also to to http://www.rentron.com  they sell electronic products but they also have a lot of free projects, with source code, and other free stuff that would be helpful in starting out.  However, it would not be a bad idea to invest, if possible, in some of the books out there that start with the beginner level and then, in additional volumes, books, they move into the intermediate and then advance levels of PIC usage.
 
Hope this helps some.
 

Randy Abernathy
CNC and Industrial Machinery
service, repair, installation and
design

4626 Old Stilesboro Rd NW
Acworth, GA 30101
Fax: 770-974-5295
Phone: 678-982-0235
E-mail:
randyabernathyspamKILLspambellsouth.net

--- On Mon, 4/12/10, Mario Castelán Castro <.....marioxccKILLspamspam.....gnu.org> wrote:


From: Mario Castelán Castro <EraseMEmarioxccspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTgnu.org>
Subject: [PIC] I'm new with PICs
To: piclistspamspam_OUTmit.edu
Date: Monday, April 12, 2010, 7:25 PM


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

April 12th 2010 in @spam@piclistKILLspamspammit.edu therad "[PIC] I'm new with PICs".

Hi.

I want to start programming microcontrollers in GNU/Linux with free
software.

First, I want to know what is the difference of PIC16F84A againsting
PIC12F683/C683 because I can buy one (or two) of those models.  What is
your advice?.

Second, I also need a programmer compatible with free software.  I
don't use propietary software because I valuate my freedom but first I
must choise the microcontroller to use, and then the programmer
acording to the first, true?.

My first "project" will be a blinking LED in order to check all
software and hardware is working fine, then I wish make a frecuency
meter in the SLF range so I can measure the exact frecuency of the
mains :D.

Taking into account I live in Veracruz, México where I can buy the
required parts?  There are several electronic store in the city but
the microcontrollers supply is very narrow :S.

BTW I also read several refercences to David Tait wich mantained
GNUPIC about PIC development with free software.  But gnupic.org
contains only spam now, what did happen to that site?, It is on a new
url?.

Thanks in advance :) and excuse my bad english, I'm native spanish
speaker.
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2010\04\12@211352 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 7:50 AM, RANDY ABERNATHY
<KILLspamrandyabernathyKILLspamspambellsouth.net> wrote:
> Try the following link for GNU
>
> http://www.gnupic.dds.nl
>
> I think you will find that is the newer URL for GNU.
I think that is really old information and most of them outdated
(last updated seems to be in year 2002).


--
Xiaofan http://mcuee.blogspot.com

2010\04\12@214419 by Michael Watterson

face picon face
Mario wrote


>Xiaofan Chen wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Unless you are building 1000s and also need less than 18 pins use an 18F
series
do check the microchip site. A lot of parts in Web articles are very
obsolete and projects can easily be done on newer pin compatible parts.

the 10, 12, and 16 have about 10 members each in pin sizes less than 18
pins if you want small.

the dspPIC, 24F are different family.

the PIC32 is really a MIPS core.  Personally, if an 18F isn't powerful
enough or enough Flash, etc, I'd use an ARM Cortex M1, M3 at low end and
bigger A8 or Cortex A series with enough Flash & RAM for Linux at higher
end. ARM starts at about $4

Check out JAL, Free, Open Source on Linux & Windows
http://code.google.com/p/jallib/

I've compared JAL to Hitech C, Boost C, Mikroe C and for PIC, certainly
10, 12, 16 it's better.
Supported devices here
code.google.com/p/jallib/source/browse/#svn/trunk/include/device
(343!)

http://justanotherlanguage.org/content/jaluino
http://jallib.blogspot.com/
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/jallist/
http://groups.google.co.in/group/jaledit

http://code.google.com/p/jallib/


Current Developer of jal is Kyle <http://www.casadeyork.com/jalv2/>

Quote:

   JALv2 is a rewrite of Wouter van Ooijen's famous Just Another Language.

   More JAL bits and libraries can be found:

   jallib -- libraries for everything
   http://code.google.com/p/jallib/
   Rob Hamerling's Homepage for all Microchip device files
   http://www.robh.nl/
   Single Multiple with Constant Calculator
   http://www.casadeyork.com/jalv2/cmul.cgi
   Original JAL
   voti.nl/jal/index_1.html <http://www.voti.nl/jal/index_1.html>
   Stef's PIC Pages
   http://pic.flappie.nl
   Wattystuff  (I post stuff on Techtir and jallib at google now)
   www.wattystuff.net/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=PIC+Micro
   Bert van Dam Pages
   http://members.home.nl/b.vandam/
   Yahoo Group
   http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/jallist

        http://www.robh.nl/picsoft.php <http://www.robh.nl/picsoft.php>

Good, if somewhat out of date overview of PIC
http://www.voti.nl/swp/index_1.html


Really seriously consider PicKit 2 (under $30) or Pickit3, else there
will be PICs you can't program.

Some stuff on my site too http://www.techtir.ie/node/1003280
http://www.techtir.ie/articles/software
PIC projects http://www.techtir.ie/construction
DIY programmer (not recommended anymore, get a PicKit2)
http://www.techtir.ie/node/1001751

On this project

http://www.techtir.ie/node/1003355
http://www.techtir.ie/node/1003375
I started with 16F877, switched to pin compatible 18F4550 and added USB,
just with a header change in the JAL code and now I will do next
prototype with SM TQFP 64pin 18F67J50, 128K Flash, as I have run out of
memory on the 32K Flash 18F4550. All my existing JAL code and
perpherials will work. Eagle has most of the parts libraries inc 18F67J50




2010\04\12@220458 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 9:43 AM, Michael Watterson <spamBeGonemikespamBeGonespamradioway.org> wrote:

> Really seriously consider PicKit 2 (under $30) or Pickit3, else there
> will be PICs you can't program.
>

He wants to use Linux and free software, PICkit 2 is ok but not PICkit 3.
PICkit 3 is currently not supported under Linux.

The current Linux support of PICs are not as great as AVR or
ARMs. One of the main thing missing is the support of hardware
debugger under Linux (Piklab's support of ICD 2 is of beta quality).

For PIC firmware testing, I will still use Windows. It is much
easier and much more productive to use MPLAB with the
Microchip C compilers under Windows (XP, Vista, Win7).
The free download of C compilers from Microchip is good
enough for many usages, especially for hobbyists and students.

That being said, for the OP's usage, it seems to me
gputils/sdcc/JAL and PICkit 2 can do the job if he has
reasonably basic knowledge with Linux and basic
electronics, programming and MCU.

--
Xiaofan http://mcuee.blogspot.com

2010\04\13@010634 by Byron Jeff

flavicon
face
On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 09:43:52PM -0400, Michael Watterson wrote:
{Quote hidden}

I'm currently exploring the enchanced 16F XLP family of chips. It seems to
be an almost perfect blend of 16F backwards compatibility and 18F features
with a wrinkle or two thrown in (such as the totally cool linear GP memory
access feature). One can do some real damage with a 16F1936 in a 28 pin
package screaming at 32 Mhz running on the internal oscillator. And it's
virtually code compatible with the 16F family. I took me nearly 2000 line
picoforth interpreter and got it to assemble cleanly with less than 1/2
hours worth of work. Of course that doesn't include any of the
optimizations that extended instruction set affords.

[Snippage]

>
> Check out JAL, Free, Open Source on Linux & Windows
> http://code.google.com/p/jallib/
>
> I've compared JAL to Hitech C, Boost C, Mikroe C and for PIC, certainly
> 10, 12, 16 it's better.

Agreed. Jal is excellent if you really don't want to get under the hood.

> Really seriously consider PicKit 2 (under $30) or Pickit3, else there
> will be PICs you can't program.

(old coot mutters to himself "Do I really want to get into this ago old
argument again?!"... Decides to go for it).

The PICs that cannot be programmed probably do not matter. A hobbyist on a
linux box wanting to do this on the cheap (read that as someone like me) is
interested only in a single chip, or possibly a single family or two.

More importantly (and this is the age old coot argument) programmers are
overrated. Debuggers are not. Programmers definitely are.

Again back to the extended 16F family. Microchip finally fixed LVP such
that high voltage programming is virtually never needed. They use MCLR as
the PGM pin and in a Wouter ZPL-like move clock in a LVP unlocking key
string while the chip is reset to start LVP. So all you lose access to is
the potiential for RE3 (which is shared on the MCLR pin). And considering
that you get the last two PORTA bits (and a full PORTA) by using the
internal oscillator, it's no great loss. All the chips are self
programmable. They have write enables to protect bootloaders. So all that's
missing is an inexpensive way to dump a bootloader onto the chip.

I'm working on such a code loader, codenamed piccolo (PIC COde LOader).
It's a stripped down version of your DIY that you outlined , with no
high voltage generation and trusting the clamping diodes. It's little more
than series resistors and clamping zeners tied to the DTR, RTS, and TX of a
serial port. DTR and RTS are the data/clock while TX is run through a 555
monostable to blip the MCLR line for reset for a period of time so that the
LVP unlocking code can be clocked in. It's $5 in Radio Shack parts, so you
know it's got to be really cheap stuff.

It only has one purpose in life, the single dump of a bootloader on the
chip. Once it's done that job, throw it back on the shelf and use the
bootloader (I'm currently using Frank Sergent's Pikme bootloader here:
http://pygmy.utoh.org/pikme/index.html) to interface the chip. I'm figuring
at 32 Mhz I should be able to get it to work consistently at 115.2k.
Frank's code need autobauding, so I plan to add it when I get a chance.

I'm working on the software for the piccolo right now. Writing it in python
(like Wouter and Frank) so that everyone can enjoy. I figure if I can get
it to dump code to a 16F1936 and a 18F14K50, that's enough to interface to
pretty much anything modern.

I really think Tony Nixon anticipated the bootloader with his ASCII serial
PIC programmer with the line:

"How do you program a PIC to be a programming device without a programmer,
and why would you want to build a programmer if you already have one that
can program the PIC to be a programmer."

from http://techref.massmind.org/techref/com/picnpoke/www/http/projects/prog.html

BINGO! When a PIC can program itself, why do you really need a PicKit2?
Especially on a Linux system where debugging really isn't an option?

BAJ

2010\04\13@011628 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 2:07 PM, Byron Jeff <RemoveMEbyronjeffspamTakeThisOuTclayton.edu> wrote:
> BINGO! When a PIC can program itself, why do you really need a PicKit2?
> Especially on a Linux system where debugging really isn't an option?
>

It will be an option when Microchip releases the new cross-platform
MPLAB (based on Java/Netbean, Linux, Windows and Mac OS X).
I guess PICkit 2 and ICD 2 will not be supported. But PICkit 3 and
ICD 3 should be supported.

That being said, the bootloader still has its usage. Some links here.
http://www.microchip.com/forums/tm.aspx?m=424874

This particular bootloader seems to gain a lot of attention
recently: PIC16F, PIC18, PIC24, and dsPIC support.
http://mrmackey.no-ip.org/elektronik/ds30loader/index.php


--
Xiaofan http://mcuee.blogspot.com

2010\04\13@025054 by Byron Jeff

flavicon
face
On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 01:16:27AM -0400, Xiaofan Chen wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 2:07 PM, Byron Jeff <byronjeffEraseMEspam.....clayton.edu> wrote:
> > BINGO! When a PIC can program itself, why do you really need a PicKit2?
> > Especially on a Linux system where debugging really isn't an option?
> >
>
> It will be an option when Microchip releases the new cross-platform
> MPLAB (based on Java/Netbean, Linux, Windows and Mac OS X).
> I guess PICkit 2 and ICD 2 will not be supported. But PICkit 3 and
> ICD 3 should be supported.

I guess we will see. The last time I used MPLAB it was running on DOS.
Virtually all of my PIC development has been with gputils, gpsim, and one
bootloader or another. It's a bit difficult to find context in something
that you never had access to.

>
> That being said, the bootloader still has its usage. Some links here.
> http://www.microchip.com/forums/tm.aspx?m=424874

I have that page bookmarked already.

>
> This particular bootloader seems to gain a lot of attention
> recently: PIC16F, PIC18, PIC24, and dsPIC support.
> http://mrmackey.no-ip.org/elektronik/ds30loader/index.php

It has the same problem I see with most bootloaders in terms of taking over
the EUSART, which is prime real estate on PIC. The ideal bootloader is
bitbanged, autobauding, and only uses a single user selectable I/O pin. Wouter's WLoader
was the closest in that respect due to its single pin half-duplex
bitbanged interface. Frank's Pikme is write only and has the same
attributes. Neither autobauded.

That defines the same issue with the debugger. Microchip forces a hardware
interface for programming and debugging on your project instead of simply
facilitating the best interface for the project. RB6/RB7 is tough to
navigate around when you really need an 8 bit port on a limited pin part.

A really cool idea would be to generate a bidirectional single pin
interface using MCLR. Now that would be a programming/debugging interface
that I could get with.

As it is, with HVP it's perfectly possible to put Frank's bootloader on RE3
which gets it pretty much completely out the way on all these enhanced 16F
parts. The 16F1936 only implements RE3 as a input from port E, so the 1/2
pin that is used is virtually no cost. I always thought that Wouter had the
transparancy idea in terms of I/O right. From his ZPL document:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Communication

A bootloader must communicate with the host system (PC). This
(traditionally) requires the use of one or more I/O pins. Using the
target's hardware UART can reduce the code size of the bootloader, but
requires the use of the UART's fixed I/O pins. Using a bit-banged
(software) UART gives full freedom in choosing the I/O pins used for
communication (and with some cleverness one pin is sufficient), but at the
cost of more code.

The historical trend is that new microcontrollers are faster and have more
memory and peripherals than their predecessors, at a price that is only a
fraction higher (or sometimes even lower!). The 18Fxxx family illustrates
this trend: compared to the 16Fxxx chips they offer twice the code space,
twice the speed, much more RAM, a more powerful CPU, and more and better
peripherals. The number of I/O pins however does increase at the same rate,
because it is limited by the available packages. So with each new
generation of chips the chance increases that the availability of I/O pins
will be the limiting factor for your application.

The bootloader described here can of course not avoid the use of some code
space, but it does avoid the use of I/O pins by using an often neglected
pin for communication: the /MCLR (Master CLear and Reset) pin. This may
sound like black magic, but the principle is very simple: the PC
manipulates the reset pin so the processor gets to run varying  amounts of
time. The processor records the length of time it was allowed to run, and
when it gets to run again it interprets a short previous run time as a 0
and a longer time as a 1. Voila, a communication channel. Modern PCs
running Windows or Linux are not capable of very precise timing in the
microseconds region, so you might fear that complicated hardware is
involved. Luckily the ancient serial port with its UART is perfect for this
purpose. For modern hardware that has no serial port available an
USB->serial adapter can be used, which is in fact the way the bootloader
was developed.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
It's zpl.doc in this archive if you want to read the whole thing:

http://www.circuitcellar.com/flash2002/Honorable/M285.zip

1 I/O pin usage is better than 2 I/O pins. A 1/2 I/O pin is better than 1 I/O
pin. If it really could be done with zero I/O pins, that would be even
better. With modern internal oscillator modules, converting MCLR to an
input pin and using it is about as good as it gets.

Of course there are downsides to the approach. No debugging backchannel and
slow loads. Everything in life is a tradeoff.

The OP wanted free or as close to free as he could get. Presuming that he
can get the parts, a cheap code dumper with a bootloader is cheaper than
even a pickit2. For the $30 for a pickit 2 you can buy a full rack of
16F1936 parts. I just got mine rack of 10 from DigiKey for $20.20 + shipping.

Add 3 cents to this and you might just get a nickel.

BAJ

2010\04\13@034419 by Michael Watterson

face picon face
Byron Jeff wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Well, I built my "JDM" compatible (from software point of view)
programmer out of parts I had lying around in 2003. It has worked well
for me and only "upgrading" to a 18F67J50 has forced me to lash out the
money for a PICkit 2.

The previous post was a bit long, so here is the programmer on its own.
The main difference from all the so called "zero parts" JDM compatible
programmers is the ICL7660 with a trippler to get 12.5 V from 5V and -5V
for improved RS232 send to PC. Originally it was target powered, but now
is USB powered (by cutting the B plug of a cable and soldering the Red &
Black wires!) and thus can power small targets without need for a
separate wall-wart or bench PSU.
www.techtir.ie/projects/jdm-pic-programmer
(I gave it a nicer URL).

Is SDCC actually working well rather than work in progress?

Very small projects may benefit from using assembler (for the whole
program), but I've seen no evidence of the need for it on larger
projects, especially when you can have a block of assembler or an inline
statement in most C and JAL.  I used to be a fan of Forth (anyone
remember the Jupiter  ACE) and  did a  set of Forth like libraries in
assembler for NEC 78HC11. Maybe part of a RTOS for 18F or some math
function on 8 bit core might want assembler.  Or small program for 10F /
12F etc.

Wouter should really update

http://www.voti.nl/swp/index_1.html

again. It was great for me in 2003 starting with PIC and re-reading it now, it's still good. There is a lot of nonsense spoken elsewhere and strange religious fervour for obsolete 10, 20 and 30 year old parts.

With my zero cost 2003 "JDM" type In-circuit programmer and very few code changes, and only once a field update, I've  never got round to trying bootloaders. I usually end up filling the Program memory with my own SW. The more useful a bootloader is, the more space it appears to take.  However the idea is attractive on a USB PIC. If the USB port can be bootloader and normal function without a jumper link for Boot loader mode.


2010\04\13@073655 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 3:43 PM, Michael Watterson <RemoveMEmikeEraseMEspamEraseMEradioway.org> wrote:
> Is SDCC actually working well rather than work in progress?
>

For quite some sdcc users, it seems to be fine.
Even for more complicated tasks like USB, there are success
projects using sdcc.
http://www.microchip.com/forums/tm.aspx?m=235427

sdcc for 8051 is of course much better than sdcc for PIC and
there are many more projects using sdcc for 8051s. I've
also read sdcc for Z80 core used successfully for commercial
projects.

But I am not using sdcc myself. For previous job, I used
HiTech PICC and MPASM.


--
Xiaofan http://mcuee.blogspot.com

2010\04\13@075004 by Byron Jeff

flavicon
face
On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 03:43:52AM -0400, Michael Watterson wrote:
{Quote hidden}

So as I said in my other post, I think it's the right idea. Now that
Microchip has gotten LVP to the point where that horrid PGM pin is banished
forever, at least for a hobbyist, there's little reason to have the voltage
trippler.

A hobbyist running on the cheap only needs a single chip to work. The OP
was looking at 12F675. They are running in the $1.70 USD range for single
parts. The much more capable (and currently available) 16F1826 in a 18 pin
package is $1.82 in singles. I am just waiting for the 16F1822 and 16F1825
parts (in 8 and 14 pin packages respectively) to hit the streets.

The point is that with chips in every package range, there's little reason
not to settle on this one family and to just stick to it like glue from a
hobby standpoint.

Your 18F67J50 is a perfect example. 64 pin TQFP. How exactly is a starting
hobby PIC user going to interface with that? They are going to start small,
in DIP. I really just wish we could get rid of all these old 16F84A pages
that bring folks to the table, but in reality from virtually every aspect
is a complete waste of time. Pick a completely current family and stick to
it.

> The previous post was a bit long, so here is the programmer on its own.
> The main difference from all the so called "zero parts" JDM compatible
> programmers is the ICL7660 with a trippler to get 12.5 V from 5V and -5V
> for improved RS232 send to PC. Originally it was target powered, but now
> is USB powered (by cutting the B plug of a cable and soldering the Red &
> Black wires!) and thus can power small targets without need for a
> separate wall-wart or bench PSU.
> www.techtir.ie/projects/jdm-pic-programmer
> (I gave it a nicer URL).

I took at look. I guess I will see about get Kicad cranked up an generate a
schematic of this piccolo. I wanted to test the software first though.

> Is SDCC actually working well rather than work in progress?

No clue. In the 15 years I've know it to be kicking around it's always been
a moving target. From a tool building standpoint, JAL has almost always
been better.

> Very small projects may benefit from using assembler (for the whole
> program), but I've seen no evidence of the need for it on larger
> projects, especially when you can have a block of assembler or an inline
> statement in most C and JAL.

I only have a small point of disagreement. With embedded systems projects,
I can generally care less what language is used as long as the developer
does in fact understand the underlaying assembly language. Especially with
PICs there is still a ton of code and tutorials out there in assembly. It's
still the primary lingua franca for trading code ideas. At least for the
16F level of chips. So without a knowledge of it at all, when you get an
algorithm to do X written in assembly, and all you know is HLL Y, then
there's a disconnect.

>  I used to be a fan of Forth (anyone
> remember the Jupiter  ACE) and  did a  set of Forth like libraries in
> assembler for NEC 78HC11. Maybe part of a RTOS for 18F or some math
> function on 8 bit core might want assembler.  Or small program for 10F /
> 12F etc.

I'm not advocating that assembler is the only way to pull it off. In fact
I'm right in the middle of writing my own self hosted Forth system for the
enhanced 16F series of chips. It's the embedded systems language I would
have implemented 20 years ago if I had really understood its impact back
then. But truthfully the level of chip support back then was marginal. The
16F enhanced chips are a Forth sweet spot with RAM layed out linearly, senf
writable flash, two indirect registers that can address all the address
spaces (except for the high 6 bits of program memory... Grrrr!), indirect
registers with auto inc/dec support, stack tools for RTOS support, and
tools to minimize banking and paging. After spending a week writing for the
original 16F, the enhanced chips are an absolute joy in comparison.

>
> Wouter should really update
>
> http://www.voti.nl/swp/index_1.html
>

> again. It was great for me in 2003 starting with PIC and re-reading it
> now, it's still good. There is a lot of nonsense spoken elsewhere and
> strange religious fervour for obsolete 10, 20 and 30 year old parts.

No disagreement from me there. However, his rules of thumb are very close
to the mark. To quote [with my commentary in brackets]:

------------------------------
So my advise is: first decide which family you want to use. If you want to
do a large number of projects, look low (12/14 bit core). If you need the
CPU horsepower, large memories, or other goodies look high (18F, or even
dsPIC). [The 16F enhanced fits right into this discussion as a good
compromise between the lowly 16F originals and the 18Fs]

Next take a fat DIP chip within that family. Within the 12/14 bit cores
that would be the 16F877A (12/14 bit core). [Would update to the 16F1937
for the enhanced 14bit, could also make an argument for the skinny 28 pin
DIP, the 16F1936] The developents in the 16 bit cores (18F) are too fast to
follow. The 18F452 used to be the king here, but it has been replaced by
the 18F4520, and even larger chips are available (18F4620). [The only
update here is to include a USB offering from the 18F as an option.] I am
not sufficiently experienced with these chips to advice on dsPICs, but the
30F4013 is currently the fattest 40-pin dsPIC.

If you are relatively new to electronics you might kill a few chips in your
learning process. It might be a good idea to let these chips be somehat
less expensive than the fat ones I advised you. For this purpose I suggest
one of the 14-pins chips from the 14-bit core family. The lowly 16F630 is
cheap, the 16F688 is the fattest chip in this group. [Right now in the 16F
enhanced, the 16F1826 fills this group. Eventually the 16F1825 in the 14
pin package will be this chip.]  The 8 and 6 pin chips
are slightly cheaper, but have so few I/O pins that I would not recommend
them a starters. [Agreed.]
----------------------

I would then proceed to decimate his table. Unlike other economic
endeavors, newer chips are almost always better, faster, and cheaper. I
advocated upgrading from the 16F84 to the 16F628, to the 16F88. I would now
advocate the 16F1826 in the 18 pin package. I need to go update my page
too.

>

> With my zero cost 2003 "JDM" type In-circuit programmer and very few code
> changes, and only once a field update, I've  never got round to trying
> bootloaders. I usually end up filling the Program memory with my own SW.
> The more useful a bootloader is, the more space it appears to take.

Bootloaders don't need to be that useful. Tiny only sucks up 100 words of
program memory. Pikme a bit more than that. And there's almost always a
chip with more memory. Just get a bigger package. For example I see Digikey
is listing the upcoming 16F1938/39 parts with 16K flash and 1K RAM that's
linearly addressible in a 28/40 pin DIP.

> However the idea is attractive on a USB PIC. If the USB port can be
> bootloader and normal function without a jumper link for Boot loader
> mode.

Generally with bootloaders, if the target hasn't heard from the host after
some reasonable delay, then the loaded application starts. It's usually no
more than a second or two. No jumper is necessary.

BAJ

2010\04\13@083254 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face

Mario Castelán Castro wrote:
> First, I want to know what is the difference of PIC16F84A againsting
> PIC12F683/C683 because I can buy one (or two) of those models.  What
> is your advice?.

If you don't have a particular project in mind or physical space
constraints, I wouldn't start with either of those chips.  In fact at this
point for hobby use I would start with the PIC 18 family at least.  The
18F2520 is a very capable general purpose microcontroller in a 28 pin
package.  As you get into it more, you will discover it has a lot of depth,
but you can mostly ignore the various peripherals until you are ready to
learn about them.  The instruction set is a little easier to use than that
of a PIC 16, and the memory architecture is more regular with fewer gotchas.

> Second, I also need a programmer compatible with free software.

Sooner or later you'll also want a debugger too.  I hear the PicKit 2
mentioned a lot for this because it's cheap, but I haven't used it myself.
I'm sure Xiaofan (our PicKit 2 evangelist and apologist) will chime in.  I
think just about all programmer come with free software.

> I don't use propietary software because I valuate my freedom

That's silly.  The best PIC development software is MPLAB from Microchip.
It's free.  I hear there are ways to run it on Linux, but I don't know as I
have work to get on with.

> My first "project" will be a blinking LED in order to check all
> software and hardware is working fine, then I wish make a frecuency
> meter in the SLF range so I can measure the exact frecuency of the
> mains :D.

That sounds like a reasonable plan, although I don't know what SLF is
supposed to mean.  You will find many PICs have something called a CCP
module which is very useful for making accurate period measurements.  You
should be able to measure the line frequency to the accuracy of your
crystal.

> Taking into account I live in Veracruz, México where I can buy the
> required parts?

The other end of the internet, of course.  There may be local sources, but
since I don't live in Veracruz Mexico, I have no idea about them.  Microchip
parts are easily bought from http://www.microchipdirect.com.  You can even get
limited samples that way.  Jameco is a good source for hobbyists.

> BTW I also read several refercences to David Tait wich mantained
> GNUPIC

That is in reference to a archaic PIC programmer type you want to stay away
from today.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2010\04\13@085748 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
Byron Jeff wrote:
> One can do some real damage with a 16F1936 in a 28 pin
> package screaming at 32 Mhz running on the internal oscillator.

That's great for high volume applications, but I don't see the advantage for
a hobbyist (implying low volume) over something like a 18F2520.  That has
the same package, up to 40MHz operation, and most of the features that the
enhanced 14 bit core is trying to emulate.

> More importantly (and this is the age old coot argument) programmers are
> overrated. Debuggers are not. Programmers definitely are.

Ah, yes.  While I warned about Xiaofan being our resident PicKit 2
evangelist, I forgot to mention that Byron is our bootloader evangelist.
They both have their points, but sorry Xiaofan and Byron, neither cures
cancer, stops global warming, or will keep your beer cold ;-)


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2010\04\13@090808 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 8:57 PM, Olin Lathrop <RemoveMEolin_piclistTakeThisOuTspamspamembedinc.com> wrote:
> Ah, yes.  While I warned about Xiaofan being our resident PicKit 2
> evangelist, I forgot to mention that Byron is our bootloader evangelist.
> They both have their points, but sorry Xiaofan and Byron, neither cures
> cancer, stops global warming, or will keep your beer cold ;-)
>

I have upgraded my programmer to the ICD 3 for my PIC24
experiments. It is way better than PICkit 2. ;-) But it is
a bit expensive for hobbyists.

Bootloaders are useful as well. Currently I am using
PIC18F87J50 PIM for some USB experiments (testing
the new libusb 1.0 Windows backend), the HID bootloader
is nice even though I can use PICkit 2 to program it as well.

Even PICKit 2 comes its own USB bootloader where
you can use it to update the firmware. Or you can
use your PICkit 2 as a USB test bed.


--
Xiaofan http://mcuee.blogspot.com

2010\04\13@095201 by Michael Watterson

face picon face
Xiaofan Chen wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 8:57 PM, Olin Lathrop <EraseMEolin_piclistspamspamspamBeGoneembedinc.com> wrote:
>  
>> Ah, yes.  While I warned about Xiaofan being our resident PicKit 2
>> evangelist, I forgot to mention that Byron is our bootloader evangelist.
>> They both have their points, but sorry Xiaofan and Byron, neither cures
>> cancer, stops global warming, or will keep your beer cold ;-)
>>
>>    
>
> I have upgraded my programmer to the ICD 3 for my PIC24
> experiments. It is way better than PICkit 2. ;-) But it is
> a bit expensive for hobbyists.
>
> Bootloaders are useful as well. Currently I am using
> PIC18F87J50 PIM for some USB experiments (testing
>
>  
can I pick your brains later if I have problem? Isn't that 80pin version
of my 64 pin 18F67J50?

Any gotchas moving from 18F4550?
I'm using keypad shared with a KS0108 type glcd, 24LC512 using sw SPI
and USB "serial" profile.

Surface mount is very doable for beginner. Start making an op-amp in SO8
package on 0.1" stripboard by craft knife cut down  either side of holes
to make each track be two tracks. surface mount all parts on the
trackside. Use fine solderable enamel wire to transition from 0.05" to  
0.1" pins on  stripboard  (vero).

Adaptors  to DIL  upto 44 pin TQFP are not hard to  solder  after  
practice with  vero board.  Pre tin (use solder wick to remove excess)
and  just  "press"  pins  in place with  18W to 25W  iron  cleaned  2mm
tip.  

With practice you can make up to 2GHz LNAs and VCOs using SM on
trackside of vero and loads of ground connections soldered to a piece of
copper foil off coax on the "empty side" as a ground plane. A standard
width vero track this way  is a stripline, and cut along holes is a 3rd
width strip. Make series C and track to connectot on case be a series
pass filter.


Experiment :-)


But there plenty good 18F parts in 18 pin to 40 pin DIL, if you want
USB, though the limit is 32K flash. My main reason for going to
18F46J50  is 64K flash and DIL adaptor PCB, and 18F67J50 the 128K flash.
Also I *ALWAYS* want one extra feature that needs another few pins (GPS
module, PS/2 keyboard, SD card reader or whatever).

2010\04\13@101834 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 9:51 PM, Michael Watterson <RemoveMEmikeKILLspamspamradioway.org> wrote:
>> Bootloaders are useful as well. Currently I am using
>> PIC18F87J50 PIM for some USB experiments (testing
>>
>>
> can I pick your brains later if I have problem? Isn't that 80pin version
> of my 64 pin 18F67J50?

Yes. Just remember I am not a firmware or software guy. My
expertise is more on the hardware side (especially
analog side). So I do not write any complex firmware.
And my host software coding capability is even more limited
(simple C only, can read a bit Python/C#, no C++/Java,
no GUI toolkit).

> Any gotchas moving from 18F4550?

If you are using Microchip stack, it is fine. Microchip has done the
necessary work already to make their USB stack suitable for
many PICs (PIC18/PIC24/PIC32).




--
Xiaofan http://mcuee.blogspot.com

2010\04\13@115437 by Michael Watterson

face picon face
Xiaofan Chen wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 9:51 PM, Michael Watterson <mikeSTOPspamspamspam_OUTradioway.org> wrote:
>  
>>> Bootloaders are useful as well. Currently I am using
>>> PIC18F87J50 PIM for some USB experiments (testing
>>>
>>>      
>> Any gotchas moving from 18F4550?
>>    
>
> If you are using Microchip stack, it is fine. Microchip has done the
> necessary work already to make their USB stack suitable for
> many PICs (PIC18/PIC24/PIC32).
>
>  
I was very surprised how painless USB serial was with JAL. My only issue
was stupid windows needing an .inf for something it already had a
driver  for.  The  JAL  USB just worked. I haven't tried the other  
"profiles" yet.  AFAIK  it's ported to JAL from microchip  example.

There are 10 kinds of Analogue Engineers :-)

2010\04\13@120909 by Russell McMahon

face picon face
What a marvellous thread ! :-).

Buried in there was this

>
I'm working on such a code loader, codenamed piccolo (PIC COde LOader).
It's a stripped down version of your DIY that you outlined , with no
high voltage generation

and trusting the clamping diodes.
/>

Byron, can you please explain that last comment.
I hope it doesn't mean what it could mean.

*IF* it means using the clamping diodes in conduction mode during
device operation:

1. Could this not be bypassed by the use of small Schottky diode per
relevant pin at minimal extra cost?

2. What sort of currents are involved?.

(1-10 uA = probably OK)
(10-100 = getting risky).
(100+ = DTTAH)


         Russell

2010\04\13@123912 by Byron Jeff

flavicon
face
On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 12:08:49PM -0400, Russell McMahon wrote:
> What a marvellous thread ! :-).
>
> Buried in there was this
>
> >
> I'm working on such a code loader, codenamed piccolo (PIC COde LOader).
> It's a stripped down version of your DIY that you outlined , with no
> high voltage generation
>
> and trusting the clamping diodes.
> />
>
> Byron, can you please explain that last comment.
> I hope it doesn't mean what it could mean.

Zeners conduct normally in forward (0.7V) and in zener mode on reverse
(4.7V in this case). So on the negative downswing the PIC pins are seeing a
-0.7V voltage, which does cause the lower clamping diodes to kick in.

>
> *IF* it means using the clamping diodes in conduction mode during
> device operation:
>
> 1. Could this not be bypassed by the use of small Schottky diode per
> relevant pin at minimal extra cost?

That would reduce it to below a negative 0.5V. But there is still a
negative voltage swing that's outside the max rating.

>
> 2. What sort of currents are involved?.
>
> (1-10 uA = probably OK)
> (10-100 = getting risky).
> (100+ = DTTAH)

I'm currently testing with 1K resistors. So we're talking about 700 uA.

The voltage is outside the max rating of -0.3V. The clamping diodes are rated to 20
mA.

Fixing this would require adding two transistors to translate the voltages then.

A nickle's worth of insurance is probably worth the hassle. So I'll go
ahead and add them.

Thanks for the heads up.

BAJ

2010\04\13@125421 by Byron Jeff

flavicon
face
On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 08:57:41AM -0400, Olin Lathrop wrote:
> Byron Jeff wrote:
> > One can do some real damage with a 16F1936 in a 28 pin
> > package screaming at 32 Mhz running on the internal oscillator.
>
> That's great for high volume applications, but I don't see the advantage for
> a hobbyist (implying low volume) over something like a 18F2520.  That has
> the same package, up to 40MHz operation, and most of the features that the
> enhanced 14 bit core is trying to emulate.

Actually I believe I can make a few arguments.

1. When using the internal oscillator block, both are limited to 32 Mhz.
Probably a wash.

2. There is quite a bit of utility in the fact that the enhanced 14 bit
core has the ability to linearly address all of its GP memory via the FSRs.

3. A big deal to a novice hobbyist is the fact that the 14 bit enhanced
core is drop in code compatible with the 16F standard core. Pretty much
other than adding a 0 to FSR, getting rid of IRP, and consistently using
banksel/pagesel, they can run the same code.

4. The price difference is significant. The 18F2620 is $7.68 at Digikey in
singles. The 16F1936 is $2.58. For a hobbyist on the cheap, that's a
significant difference.


Just a few arguments. I don't think it's cut and dried.

>
> > More importantly (and this is the age old coot argument) programmers are
> > overrated. Debuggers are not. Programmers definitely are.
>
> Ah, yes.  While I warned about Xiaofan being our resident PicKit 2
> evangelist, I forgot to mention that Byron is our bootloader evangelist.
> They both have their points, but sorry Xiaofan and Byron, neither cures
> cancer, stops global warming, or will keep your beer cold ;-)

But bootloaders do allow for cheap entry and I/O pin flexibility. So they
are worth talking about. I always counterpunch with it, because if I don't
say something, novices will think that buying a pickit 2 is the only way to
get into the game when there are other options.

BAJ

2010\04\13@135223 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
Byron Jeff wrote:
> 2. There is quite a bit of utility in the fact that the enhanced 14
> bit
> core has the ability to linearly address all of its GP memory via the
> FSRs.

But the 18Fs can do that also.

> 3. A big deal to a novice hobbyist is the fact that the 14 bit
> enhanced
> core is drop in code compatible with the 16F standard core.

The OP said he was starting out new, so has no existing code to be
compatible with.  Most of the code out on the net is total crap and uses the
16F84, so not being compatible with that is a advantage ;-)

> 4. The price difference is significant. The 18F2620 is $7.68 at
> Digikey in singles.

But that's a bad place to buy PICs.  Microchip sells the 18F2520-I/SP for
$3.98 in singles, which is more comparable anyway to even the enhanced 16Fs.
Then again we're only talking about buying a small number.  Whether the PIC
costs $4 or $2 is going to get burried in lots of other costs.  The
difference is probably less than the box you put it in.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2010\04\13@135538 by Bob Blick

face
flavicon
face
On Tue, 13 Apr 2010 13:55:40 -0400, "Byron Jeff" said:

> But bootloaders do allow for cheap entry and I/O pin flexibility. So they
> are worth talking about. I always counterpunch with it, because if I
> don't
> say something, novices will think that buying a pickit 2 is the only way
> to
> get into the game when there are other options.

Bootloaders also totally rock for applications where you are doing
development on something that has to be fully assembled in order to run.
I have a 16F876A in the depths of my refrigerator(long story for some
other time) and so I have a serial cable hanging out of it. I can upload
new code and also use the serial port for logging and checking
parameters.

In this case it's good to have the bootloader on the serial port. But
there are also instances where an "any pin" bootloader would be just the
right thing.

PICs are pretty amazingly versatile!

Cheerful regards,

Bob

--
http://www.fastmail.fm - Or how I learned to stop worrying and
                         love email again

2010\04\13@141120 by Michael Watterson

face picon face
Olin Lathrop wrote:
>
> The OP said he was starting out new, so has no existing code to be
> compatible with.  Most of the code out on the net is total crap and uses the
> 16F84, so not being compatible with that is a advantage ;-)
>
>  
I like it.
{Quote hidden}

hobbyists buy from Digikey rather than some obscure guy on eBay?

Compared with screen, box, peripherals, postage, time, grief I can see
no reason for anyone new or unconcerned with volume to use other than
18F, unless they *REALLY* want less than 18  pins.  18 pins isn't big
and  when  you  take  off  for power,  and maybe crystal (*reliable
timing needs a crystal*)  less than 18 pins is not too useful.

A 40 pin DIP 18F4550 is hard to beat for general purpose learning and
lots of i/o to experiment with. Then maybe smaller ones if needed for
particular projects. 48MHz from a range of crystals and USB. Similar
price to obsolete 16F877A, (uChip recommend you buy 16F887 to replace
16F877As).

2010\04\13@162742 by Mario =?utf-8?Q?Castel=C3=A1n?= Castro n/a

picon face
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

April 13th 2010 in spamBeGonepiclistSTOPspamspamEraseMEmit.edu thread "[PIC] I'm new with PICs"

>He wants to use Linux and free software, PICkit 2 is ok but not
>PICkit 3.  PICkit 3 is currently not supported under Linux.

The firmware/software for PICkit 2 is not free software because it
limits you to use with Microchip products only.  I'ts a pity.

Also, i'm talking about the OS as a whole, wich is GNU with Linux
kernel.  Linux is a kernel.

>The free download of C compilers from Microchip is good enough for
>many usages, especially for hobbyists and students.

They are freeware, not free software.  Free software is a matter of
freedom: http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html

>Byron Jeff wrote:
> One can do some real damage with a 16F1936 in a 28 pin
> package screaming at 32 Mhz running on the internal oscillator.

I dobut I can get such microcontroller easily.

Thanks all people by your comments! :).
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=fAep
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2010\04\13@165358 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
Mario Castelán Castro wrote:
> The firmware/software for PICkit 2 is not free software because it
> limits you to use with Microchip products only.  I'ts a pity.

But the PicKit2 is a Microchip product.

>> The free download of C compilers from Microchip is good enough for
>> many usages, especially for hobbyists and students.
>
> They are freeware, not free software.  Free software is a matter of
> freedom: http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html

No, it has nothing to do with freedom, only that someone used the term
"freedom" to make it sound good without anyone thinking too hard.  It's a
lot like labeling something "organic", which really only means containing
the element carbon.  Do you realize coal is a organic fuel?

This point is with this software you can do what you want without having to
pay.  That's what "free" means.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2010\04\13@170341 by Mark Rages

face picon face
On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 3:53 PM, Olin Lathrop <KILLspamolin_piclistspamBeGonespamembedinc.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

"free" has two meanings in English.  It's pretty clear from the
original post that Mario was referring to libre-free not gratis-free.

Regards,
Mark
markrages@gmail
--
Mark Rages, Engineer
Midwest Telecine LLC
EraseMEmarkragesspamEraseMEmidwesttelecine.com

2010\04\13@170421 by Bob Blick

face
flavicon
face
Plese use [OT] tag if you want to discuss free software.

Thanks,

Bob

{Quote hidden}

--
http://www.fastmail.fm - Access your email from home and the web

2010\04\13@171053 by Michael Watterson

face picon face
Mario Castelán Castro wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA256
>
> April 13th 2010 in @spam@piclist@spam@spamspam_OUTmit.edu thread "[PIC] I'm new with PICs"
>
>  
>> He wants to use Linux and free software, PICkit 2 is ok but not
>> PICkit 3.  PICkit 3 is currently not supported under Linux.
>>    
>
> The firmware/software for PICkit 2 is not free software because it
> limits you to use with Microchip products only.  I'ts a pity.
>  
That's a bit OTT. PIC 8bit core uses  a proprietary programming
protocol. What else do you expect a Pickit 2 to work with?

maybe you should only use JTAG devices then.

Or wait till Richard Stallman or Linus Torvalds releases an mpu. If you
will only touch "pure" OSS then you need to get rid of most of the
technology you have. PICkit 2 and the SW can be thought of as a tool. I
bet your PC that runs GNU Linux has a keyboard and mouse with CPUs that
are not running OSS copies. Not to mention the CPUs on the HDDs.

At least you can actually develop PIC assembler and JAL SW on Linux. Is
it such a big deal to use a programmer that has "no-charge" but
proprietary SW? What if the SW was embedded like the SW in your TV
remote controller?


This sw http://pikdev.free.fr/  will work with my programmer (open sauce
http://www.techtir.ie/projects/jdm-pic-programmer ), which will program
all 5V parts 10, 12, 16 and 18F asssuming pikdev has the code.


However I recommend you take a balanced view to the more extreme FSF/OSS
lobby and spend the extra $30 on a Pickit2

2010\04\13@171641 by Mario =?utf-8?Q?Castel=C3=A1n?= Castro n/a

picon face
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

April 13th 2010 in spamBeGonepiclistspamKILLspammit.edu therad "[PIC] I'm new with PICs".

>Plese use [OT] tag if you want to discuss free software.

I'm talking about PIC programmers and other resources compatible with
free (libre) software, not about free software itself.
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2010\04\13@172943 by Bob Blick

face
flavicon
face
Forgive me, sometimes I get too brief in my emails.

What I meant was, if the discussion heads in the "what is free
software?" or "why free software?" direction, that is off-topic and
please use the correct tag.

Thanks,

Bob



On Tue, 13 Apr 2010 16:17:42 -0500, "Mario Castelán Castro" said:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA256
>
> April 13th 2010 in .....piclistspam_OUTspammit.edu therad "[PIC] I'm new with PICs".
>
> >Plese use [OT] tag if you want to discuss free software.
>
> I'm talking about PIC programmers and other resources compatible with
> free (libre) software, not about free software itself.

--
http://www.fastmail.fm - The professional email service

2010\04\13@174826 by Michael Watterson

face picon face
Mario Castelán Castro wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA256
>
> April 13th 2010 in TakeThisOuTpiclist.....spamTakeThisOuTmit.edu therad "[PIC] I'm new with PICs".
>
>  
>> Plese use [OT] tag if you want to discuss free software.
>>    
>
> I'm talking about PIC programmers and other resources compatible with
> free (libre) software, not about free software itself.
>  
However the pickit 2 does appear to have OS. I don't see the licence
terms but there are source tarballs. Maybe a licence file in them.
*##NEW## Pikdev now supports PICkit 2 programmer from Microchip *:
at the link I posted earlier http://pikdev.free.fr/
http://pikdev.free.fr/download.php3

2010\04\13@180327 by Byron Jeff

flavicon
face
On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 01:52:17PM -0400, Olin Lathrop wrote:
> Byron Jeff wrote:
> > 2. There is quite a bit of utility in the fact that the enhanced 14
> > bit
> > core has the ability to linearly address all of its GP memory via the
> > FSRs.
>
> But the 18Fs can do that also.

I amde sure to check the 18F2620 datasheet for this feature before I made
this argument. I must have missed it. Let me go look again.

I did miss it. It's different with the 18F parts than the 14 bit enhanced.
The 18F parts have all of the GP RAM located together in the lower banks
while the SFRs are in the topmost bank. The access bank is always available
to map the SFRs.

With the 14 bit enhanced OTOH the GP memory is segmented in each and every
bank with a copy of the core SFRs mapped into each bank at the bottom. So
the GP memory is non contiguous. However these parts have a remapped FSR
memory space that stiches these non contigouous segments into a single
contigouous bank.

So it's 2 different ways of accomplishing the same thing.

>
> > 3. A big deal to a novice hobbyist is the fact that the 14 bit
> > enhanced
> > core is drop in code compatible with the 16F standard core.
>
> The OP said he was starting out new, so has no existing code to be
> compatible with.  Most of the code out on the net is total crap and uses the
> 16F84, so not being compatible with that is a advantage ;-)

But novices are going to learn by using those crappy code examples. It
frustrating when one doesn't really know what one is doing and trying to
build from scratch. So modifying a working example, even a crappy one,
often gives more joy than architecting from scratch.

That's one of the problems with using something other than stock assembly
too. It often obligates you to whatever toolset that author used to get the
job done.

While eventually everyone gets to a point where they start writing their
own stuff, the vast majority of folks learn new stuff by patterning based
off an existing template.

And even though it's for the 16F84A, the 16F628, the 16F877, and the 16F88,
there are a lot of templates out there to work from.

>
> > 4. The price difference is significant. The 18F2620 is $7.68 at
> > Digikey in singles.
>
> But that's a bad place to buy PICs.  Microchip sells the 18F2520-I/SP for
> $3.98 in singles, which is more comparable anyway to even the enhanced 16Fs.
> Then again we're only talking about buying a small number.  Whether the PIC
> costs $4 or $2 is going to get burried in lots of other costs.  The
> difference is probably less than the box you put it in.

I really think you're looking at that from a pro's view rather than a cheap
SOB hobbyist view. Leverage that cost even over a few projects, and you're
talking about an expense which it seemed that the OP wasn't thrilled about
carrying. They were talking about developing with sub $1 8 pin parts, which
in and of itself is a painful experience.

BTW you've convinced me with the 18F2620. The 4K of linearly addressible
RAM and the extra FSR makes it extra attactive, and the MChipDirect price
makes it worthwhile. Finally gpsim currently has the chip in its simulator,
which unfortunately the enhanced 14 bit parts have not been incorporated
into yet.

Both look like winners to me. The one thing we can both clearly agree on is
that using obsolete chips is a waste of time and energy. I don't know how
Mchip keeps cranking 'em out. I'm just very glad that they do.

BAJ

2010\04\13@180939 by Byron Jeff

flavicon
face
On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 02:10:53PM -0400, Michael Watterson wrote:
> hobbyists buy from Digikey rather than some obscure guy on eBay?

No clue when they will come in. My last digikey order was on a Friday
afternoon with the box in my hand priority mail on Monday.

> Compared with screen, box, peripherals, postage, time, grief I can see
> no reason for anyone new or unconcerned with volume to use other than
> 18F, unless they *REALLY* want less than 18  pins.  18 pins isn't big
> and  when  you  take  off  for power,  and maybe crystal (*reliable
> timing needs a crystal*)  less than 18 pins is not too useful.

No disagreemeent there.

> A 40 pin DIP 18F4550 is hard to beat for general purpose learning and
> lots of i/o to experiment with. Then maybe smaller ones if needed for
> particular projects. 48MHz from a range of crystals and USB. Similar
> price to obsolete 16F877A, (uChip recommend you buy 16F887 to replace
> 16F877As).

I used to be a 40 pin part fan. But now I find myself gravitating to the
28s simply because there is less real estate to handle.

And just to reiterate, if I'm staying in the 16F universe for 28/40 pin parts,
I just cannot see how the 16F1936/16F1937 pair can be beat on performance
for the price. Of course they will pop right into the same socket as a
16F877/887.

BAJ
>
> --

2010\04\13@183831 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 4:28 AM, Mario Castelán Castro <TakeThisOuTmarioxccKILLspamspamspamgnu.org> wrote:

> The firmware/software for PICkit 2 is not free software because it
> limits you to use with Microchip products only.  I'ts a pity.
>
> Also, i'm talking about the OS as a whole, which is GNU with Linux
> kernel.  Linux is a kernel.
>

I see where you are coming from. I will say PIC (especially PIC12/16)
is not the best MCU family to go if you want to use purely free
open source software under Linux. Just go to ARM MCU which has the
necessary tools. Or AVR if you want to use DIP packages. MSP430
may be another target.

On the other hand, just use those simple programmers if your
PC has a real serial port or parallel port.

There are open source USB PIC programmers.
USB PIC programmer for Linux, Windows and Mac OS X,
PIC18F2550 based, USB HID
http://usbpicprog.org/

Open Programmer for Linux and Windows, PIC18F2550
based, USB HID
http://openprog.altervista.org/OP_eng.html

Oops, they both use Microchip USB stack as the base
for the firmware, so they are not free software as per your
definition. So they are also out.




--
Xiaofan http://mcuee.blogspot.com

2010\04\13@185959 by William \Chops\ Westfield

face picon face
>
> This point is with this software you can do what you want without  
> having to
> pay.  That's what "free" means.

Yes, but he wants more than that.  There are people who get entirely  
too political over the whole topic, and while I disagree with the  
concept, asking for "all OPEN SOURCE" software is not so uncommon (for  
instance, I've seen several complaints that EAGLE isn't free enough...)


>> The firmware/software for PICkit 2 is not free software because it
>> limits you to use with Microchip products only.  I'ts a pity.

There IS (open source) linux software to drive the PICkit 2, which I  
think is what Xiaofan was talking about.  And, um, I thought you  
wanted it to use with microchip products?  The fact that there are  
(ignored, apparently) restrictions in the license that prevent one  
from using the hardware to program other microcontrollers ought to be  
a bit irrelevant in the short term...

You could get/build an Arduino.  I think they meet your definition of  
"free", and I believe they've been seen in Mexico...

BillW

2010\04\13@191607 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 6:59 AM, William "Chops" Westfield
<.....westfwspamRemoveMEmac.com> wrote:

> Yes, but he wants more than that.  There are people who get entirely
> too political over the whole topic, and while I disagree with the
> concept, asking for "all OPEN SOURCE" software is not so uncommon (for
> instance, I've seen several complaints that EAGLE isn't free enough...)

I am a OS neutral guy and I personally disagree with those GPL
purist. But Eagle is for sure not open source.

Actually most people's PC is running on top a non-open-source
BIOS. I am quite sure it is the case for the OP as well unless he
is running the free LinuxBios (now CoreBoot). ;-)
http://www.coreboot.org/

And for license, there are many "more free" license than
GPL, like the modified BSD license.

Even then, the Intel/AMD CPU is running proprietary
instruction sets and micro-code, so the purist would better
use the open source cores and built their own "free PC". ;-)

> You could get/build an Arduino.  I think they meet your definition of
> "free", and I believe they've been seen in Mexico...

Yeah, that is why I suggested AVR. If not using Arduino, he
can also use avrdude with various programmers for AVR.
GCC for AVR is also good. avr-libc and avrdude are under
BSD license so they are also good for the OP.


--
Xiaofan http://mcuee.blogspot.com

2010\04\13@191924 by Jan Wagemakers

face picon face
Olin Lathrop schreef:

> This point is with this software you can do what you want without having to
> pay.  That's what "free" means.

OffTopic: <http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#DoesTheGPLAllowMoney>

OnTopic: At the moment, I use picprog
<http://hyvatti.iki.fi/~jaakko/pic/picprog.html> (and gputils
<http://gputils.sourceforge.net/>) to program pics with a JDM-style serial
port programmer. However, I find this conversation interesting because
modern computers these days often come without a serial port. So, I was
thinking of buying (or building) a pickit2, but I'm not sure if the license
of pk2cmd is really free(dom) software.

Can someone point me to the license of pk2cmd?


--
Met vriendelijke groetjes         - Jan Wagemakers -

... Wij zijn allemaal stripfiguren getekend door het leven

2010\04\13@192533 by William \Chops\ Westfield

face picon face
On Apr 13, 2010, at 11:10 AM, Michael Watterson (and Olin) wrote:

> I can see no reason for anyone new or unconcerned with volume to use  
> other than 18F, unless they *REALLY* want less than 18  pins.  18  
> pins isn't big and  when  you  take  off  for power,  and maybe  
> crystal (*reliable timing needs a crystal*)  less than 18 pins is  
> not too useful.
>
> A 40 pin DIP 18F4550 is hard to beat for general purpose learning  
> and lots of i/o to experiment with.

Intellectually, I can see the validity of this argument, but as a die-
hard hobbyist I have to admit that there must be some other factors  
that cause me to be attracted to smaller microcontrollers.  Maybe it's  
just that fewer pins are easier to contemplate from a PCB fab or  
soldering perspective.  It WAS the 16C54 (and later the 16C84 in  
similar package) that seemed to bring PICs to the attention of  
hobbyists (despite simultaneous existence of 16C57 with more pins.)

BillW

2010\04\13@195302 by peter green

flavicon
face

> 4. The price difference is significant. The 18F2620 is $7.68 at Digikey in
> singles. The 16F1936 is $2.58. For a hobbyist on the cheap, that's a
> significant difference.
>  
Do most hobbyists on the cheap actually pay for their pics?

Also you picked the top of the line in 28 pin 18f chips there are parts
like the 18f2420 which are pretty similar to the 2620 apart from the
memory and are cheaper  (though still not as cheap as your 16F)

P.S. Personally I like 28 pin chips. Enough IO for most stuff and easier
to breadboard with than the 40 pin ones due to the fact they don't block
up a load of holes (especially if your breadboards are the more common 5
hole type rather than the better 6 hole type).

2010\04\13@200253 by Michael Watterson

face picon face
William "Chops" Westfield wrote:
{Quote hidden}

I thought it was simply the cheap alleged "no parts parts programmer"
and  Flash. I certainly have no wish to go back to expensive parallel
EPROM programmer and UV lamps, much as I enjoyed my early Z80 projects.



I'm happy for you to use the PIC18F1220
<http://www.microchip.com/stellent/idcplg?IdcService=SS_GET_PAGE&nodeId=1335&dDocName=en010264>  
It's 18 pins. nice and slim and only $1.95  :-)

or 20pin PIC18F13K50
<http://www.microchip.com/stellent/idcplg?IdcService=SS_GET_PAGE&nodeId=1335&dDocName=en533925>
at a only $1.39 and just add 200nF ceramic + USB B socket + code to have
USB slave.

or twice the Flash PIC18F14K50
<http://www.microchip.com/stellent/idcplg?IdcService=SS_GET_PAGE&nodeId=1335&dDocName=en533924>
at $1.53

Lovely Push, Pop, some 12bit f register flat addressing instructions.
Nowadays, probably you could live with the 2 extra pins so as to have
USB option?




2010\04\14@021933 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
Olin Lathrop wrote:
> Mario Castelán Castro wrote:
>> The firmware/software for PICkit 2 is not free software because it
>> limits you to use with Microchip products only.  I'ts a pity.
>
> But the PicKit2 is a Microchip product.

I have never understood that clause in the software. To me it could
either mean

1. You are allowed to use this software running *on a microchip product*
(pickit2, etc)

2. You are allowed to run this software *on a microchip chip* (18F2550, etc)

3. You are allowed to use this software *to a program a microchip chip*
(which would allow clones)

4. Any linear combination of the above, using || or && operators as you
see fit.

--

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu

2010\04\14@030413 by Marechiare

picon face
>> 4. The price difference is significant. The 18F2620
>> is $7.68 at Digikey in singles.
>
> But that's a bad place to buy PICs.  Microchip sells
> the 18F2520-I/SP for $3.98 in singles, which is more
> comparable anyway to even the enhanced 16Fs.
> Then again we're only talking about buying a small
> number.  Whether the PIC costs $4 or $2 is going
> to get burried in lots of other costs.  The difference
> is probably less than the box you put it in.

PIC24F08KA102-I/SP     -  US$2.31 n singles.
.
The OP should forget about the existence of 10F, 12F, 16F, 18F lines
for some time (in my opinion).
The best PIC line for a newbie to start with is 24F line (in my opinion).
Start with 24F and don't look back.

http://www.microchipdirect.com/ProductSearch.aspx?keywords=PIC24F08KA102

PIC24F08KA102-I/SP
Lead Count:        28        
Package Type:         SPDIP        

Quantity        USD per Unit
1-25         2.31
26-99       2.10
100+        1.91

Easy Checkout, No Business account or Quote needed
Ready to ship : 654

2010\04\14@041001 by Michael Watterson

face picon face
Marechiare wrote:
{Quote hidden}

I can't see any point to dspPIC, 24F, 32F, I'd rather go for a JTAG
programmed ARM. An Mbed might be an introduction.

there is point to the 18F as existing 16F84 and 16F877 stuff is trivial
to migrate.

2010\04\14@042307 by William \Chops\ Westfield

face picon face

On Apr 14, 2010, at 1:09 AM, Michael Watterson wrote:

> I can't see any point to dspPIC, 24F, 32F, I'd rather go for a JTAG
> programmed ARM. An Mbed might be an introduction.

28pin DIP !

BillW

2010\04\14@044822 by Michael Watterson

face picon face
William "Chops" Westfield wrote:
> On Apr 14, 2010, at 1:09 AM, Michael Watterson wrote:
>
>  
>> I can't see any point to dspPIC, 24F, 32F, I'd rather go for a JTAG
>> programmed ARM. An Mbed might be an introduction.
>>    
>
> 28pin DIP !
>
> BillW
>
>  
But they only have PIC in the name :-)  10, 12, 16 & 18F are *really*
PIC, related assembler and supported by JAL. When the OP suggested
learning PIC, Was he thinking of 16bit Microchip or MIPS core 32bit
Microchip?  If you widen to dspPIC, 24F etc, you might as well consider
8051, 68HCxxx,  ATmega/VAR etc...

How much support in articles etc is there for dspPIC, 24F and 32F
compared to 16F/18F 8 bit core family?

2010\04\14@053006 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 7:19 AM, Jan Wagemakers
<RemoveMEjan.wagemakersspamspamBeGonegmail.com> wrote:

> OnTopic: At the moment, I use picprog
> <http://hyvatti.iki.fi/~jaakko/pic/picprog.html> (and gputils
> <http://gputils.sourceforge.net/>) to program pics with a JDM-style serial
> port programmer. However, I find this conversation interesting because
> modern computers these days often come without a serial port. So, I was
> thinking of buying (or building) a pickit2, but I'm not sure if the license
> of pk2cmd is really free(dom) software.
>
> Can someone point me to the license of pk2cmd?
>

Download the codes here and then read the license.
http://www.microchip.com/pickit2
I think the license is not "free" if you use the definition
of the FSF.



--
Xiaofan http://mcuee.blogspot.com

2010\04\14@074953 by David Meiklejohn

face
flavicon
face
William "Chops" Westfield wrote:
>
> On Apr 13, 2010, at 11:10 AM, Michael Watterson (and Olin) wrote:
>
> > A 40 pin DIP 18F4550 is hard to beat for general purpose learning
> > and lots of i/o to experiment with.
>
> Intellectually, I can see the validity of this argument, but as a die-
> hard hobbyist I have to admit that there must be some other factors
> that cause me to be attracted to smaller microcontrollers.  Maybe it's
> just that fewer pins are easier to contemplate from a PCB fab or
> soldering perspective.  It WAS the 16C54 (and later the 16C84 in
> similar package) that seemed to bring PICs to the attention of
> hobbyists (despite simultaneous existence of 16C57 with more pins.)

I can identify with this.  I make things with PICs for fun - it's a hobby.
And I actually (perversely, you could say) enjoy the challenge of using no
more pins than are necessary.

As a real example, I have next to me, as I type, a breadboarded prototype of
a travel clock I'm making.  My wife doesn't understand this - pointing out
that I could buy one for less than the money I spent on the case I intend to
use ($10).  Anyway, I've used a 28-pin 16F886 because that's what was on the
spare demo board I had lying around (and the demo board already had a 32k
watch crystal hooked up to T1OSC, which is exactly what I wanted).  I've got
4 x 7-segment LED displays running, using 17 pins in total (1 per digit, 1
per segment, 1 for LED to mark seconds, 2 for 32 kHz xtal, 2 power, 1 x
MCLR).

So I've got 11 unused pins, and now I need to add some buttons for setting
the time and alarm (and I'll use 1 or 2 pins to drive a piezo). The obvious,
non-time wasting solution is to use those unused pins.  Simple.  Yet boring.
So I'd rather multiplex the buttons with the display, and fit the whole
thing into an 18-pin PIC.  Or hey, 20 pins if I'm feeling extravagant.

Not sensible, true.  But fun.


David Meiklejohn
http://www.gooligum.com.au



2010\04\14@075047 by Byron Jeff

flavicon
face
On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 03:04:11AM -0400, Marechiare wrote:
{Quote hidden}

I you have an excellent argument in isolation. But I don't think it works
given the environment the OP outlined. There is very limited Linux support
at this time for the 24F line.

BAJ

2010\04\14@080043 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 8:52 PM, Byron Jeff <spamBeGonebyronjeff@spam@spamspam_OUTclayton.edu> wrote:
> I you have an excellent argument in isolation. But I don't think it works
> given the environment the OP outlined. There is very limited Linux support
> at this time for the 24F line.

Actually you can say the support of the 24F is not really that bad
compared to say 16F. You can build your own C30 (gcc based)
compiler with Microchip's source. And you can still use the PICkit 2
to program the chip or use the ds30 bootloader under Linux.

But in terms of the maturity of the free tools (free beer or freedom),
it is much easier to go to AVR/ARM under Linux than to use PIC.


--
Xiaofan http://mcuee.blogspot.com

2010\04\14@084519 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
Marechiare wrote:
> PIC24F08KA102-I/SP     -  US$2.31 n singles.
> .
> The OP should forget about the existence of 10F, 12F, 16F, 18F lines
> for some time (in my opinion).
> The best PIC line for a newbie to start with is 24F line (in my
> opinion). Start with 24F and don't look back.

The only issue with these is the 3.3V instead of 5V power.  But otherwise,
going straight to one of the 24 bit core PICs makes a lot of sense.  The
30F3013 is a nice little chip with 12 bit A/Ds, 28 pin package, and runs at
5V.  If 3.3V is OK for you, then the PIC 24H line is worth a serious look.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2010\04\14@085112 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
David Meiklejohn wrote:
> So I've got 11 unused pins, and now I need to add some buttons for
> setting the time and alarm (and I'll use 1 or 2 pins to drive a
> piezo). The obvious, non-time wasting solution is to use those unused
> pins.

No, it's to go out and buy a alarm clock.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2010\04\14@095206 by Jan Wagemakers

face picon face

Xiaofan Chen schreef:

>> Can someone point me to the license of pk2cmd?
> Download the codes here and then read the license.
> http://www.microchip.com/pickit2
> I think the license is not "free" if you use the definition
> of the FSF.

I'm more interested if it's free(dom) according to the The Debian Free
Software Guidelines (DFSG)¹ ;-)

But, do you mean this?

//                            Software License Agreement
//
// Copyright (c) 2005-2009, Microchip Technology Inc. All rights reserved.
//
// You may use, copy, modify and distribute the Software for use with Microchip
// products only.  If you distribute the Software or its derivatives, the
// Software must have this entire copyright and disclaimer notice prominently
// posted in a location where end users will see it (e.g., installation program,
// program headers, About Box, etc.).  To the maximum extent permitted by law,
// this Software is distributed <93>AS IS<94> and WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY INCLUDING BUT
// NOT LIMITED TO ANY IMPLIED WARRANTY OF MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR
// PARTICULAR PURPOSE, or NON-INFRINGEMENT. IN NO EVENT WILL MICROCHIP OR ITS
// LICENSORS BE LIABLE FOR ANY INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, INDIRECT OR CONSEQUENTIAL
// DAMAGES OF ANY KIND ARISING FROM OR RELATED TO THE USE, MODIFICATION OR
// DISTRIBUTION OF THIS SOFTWARE OR ITS DERIVATIVES.

I don't find this a clear license.


[1] <www.debian.org/social_contract.en.html#guidelines>
--
Met vriendelijke groetjes         - Jan Wagemakers -

... Fidonet : 2:292/100.19

2010\04\14@101714 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 9:52 PM, Jan Wagemakers
<TakeThisOuTjan.wagemakersspamspamgmail.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

"#6.No Discrimination Against Fields of Endeavor

The license must not restrict anyone from making use of the program in a
specific field of endeavor. For example, it may not restrict the program from
being used in a business, or from being used for genetic research."

I am not a lawyer, but it seems the "Microchip products only" does not
play well with #6 since it restrict the use. So you can not use the
source codes and modify it to program say an Atmel AVR.

I think Microchip's license for pk2cmd is quite reasonable. But
if you insist the so-called "free", then you probably have to
use other programmers.

--
Xiaofan http://mcuee.blogspot.com

2010\04\14@123759 by Marechiare

picon face
>> PIC24F08KA102-I/SP     -  US$2.31 n singles.
>> .
>> The OP should forget about the existence of 10F, 12F, 16F,
>> 18F lines for some time (in my opinion).
>> The best PIC line for a newbie to start with is 24F line (in my
>> opinion). Start with 24F and don't look back.
>
> The only issue with these is the 3.3V instead of 5V power.

For his first projects to blink LEDs and build a frequency meter 3.3V
should be ok.


> But otherwise, going straight to one of the 24 bit core PICs
> makes a lot of sense.  The 30F3013 is a nice little chip with
> 12 bit A/Ds, 28 pin package, and runs at 5V.  If 3.3V is OK
> for you, then the PIC 24H line is worth a serious look.

Yes, that's a good point about 30F3013, but 24F08KA102 is much cheaper
than DSPIC30F3013, and is somewhat less confusing with its hardware
for a newbie. Though, as we know some list member did use DSPICs for
his first project (calculator), 30F3013 may be a good choice too.

BTW, the old topic which language to start with for a newbie is
getting even more debatable for such capable devices.

2010\04\14@141449 by Jan Wagemakers

face picon face

Xiaofan Chen schreef:

[pk2cmd and DFSG]
> I am not a lawyer, but it seems the "Microchip products only" does not
> play well with #6 since it restrict the use. So you can not use the
> source codes and modify it to program say an Atmel AVR.

Indeed. I was playing with the idea to create a Debian package for pk2cmd
and then trying to get it in Debian (like I have done with picprog¹).
That's why I was interested in the license. But it seems that I can spend my
free time somewhere else ;-)

> I think Microchip's license for pk2cmd is quite reasonable. But
> if you insist the so-called "free", then you probably have to
> use other programmers.

I have no concrete plans of replacing my current JDM-style programmer yet.
But it is still possible that I will switch to pickit2/pk2cmd in the future,
even when it's not free(dom) software in the strict sense of the word.
I do prefer ''real'' free(dom) software, but I'm not a fanatic.

[1] <http://packages.debian.org/en/sid/picprog>
--
Met vriendelijke groetjes         - Jan Wagemakers -

... I'm no missionary! I don't even believe in Jebus!    --Homer Simpson

2010\04\14@180537 by Mario =?utf-8?Q?Castel=C3=A1n?= Castro n/a

picon face

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April 14th 2010 to Jan Wagemakers <jan.wagemakersEraseMEspamgmail.com> copy in
"Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <RemoveMEpiclistEraseMEspamspam_OUTmit.edu> thread
"[PIC] I'm new with PICs".

>I'm more interested if it's free(dom) according to the The Debian
>Free Software Guidelines (DFSG)¹ ;-)

>But, do you mean this?

I mean: The microchip license is propietary because it only allows use
with microchip products.
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2010\04\14@181145 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face

Mario Castelán Castro wrote:
> I mean: The microchip license is propietary because it only allows use
> with microchip products.

But so what, since the PicKit 2 isn't much use for anything other than
programming and debugging PICs?


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2010\04\14@183707 by Bob Blick

face
flavicon
face

On Wed, 14 Apr 2010 18:11:40 -0400, "Olin Lathrop" said:
> Mario Castelán Castro wrote:
> > I mean: The microchip license is propietary because it only allows use
> > with microchip products.
>
> But so what, since the PicKit 2 isn't much use for anything other than
> programming and debugging PICs?
>

Yes, until recently:

"PK2AVRISP  is software that lets a PICkit2 program AVR microcontrollers
with no hardware or firmware changes. It decodes commands sent to a
virtual serial port that emulates an AVR ISP programmer, and translates
them to Pickit2 commands. It’s compatible with existing AVR development
apps like AVRStudio, AVRDude, and CodeVision AVR."

http://pickit2avrisp.wordpress.com/

But as some have mentioned, using an unmodified PICKit2 hardware in any
way one sees fit should be fine. It's just an "appliance", much like my
Sonicare toothbrush. If I choose to clean motorcycle parts with it, I
doubt any license could prohibit me, even though it, like the PICKit2,
has firmware within it.

Cheerful regards,

Bob

--
http://www.fastmail.fm - A fast, anti-spam email service.

2010\04\14@184159 by Michael Watterson

face picon face

Olin Lathrop wrote:
> Mario Castelán Castro wrote:
>  
>> I mean: The microchip license is propietary because it only allows use
>> with microchip products.
>>    
>
> But so what, since the PicKit 2 isn't much use for anything other than
> programming and debugging PICs?
>  
Absolutely.
And if anyone wants a Free(dom) JTAG wiggler for 3.3V ARM, or FPGAs or
what ever all they need is a parallel port and an old 74LS24x   bus  
buffer IC (i.e. 74LS244, not HC or HCT, they are too good! .   Genuine
TTL only outputs about 2.7V when run off a 5V supply, so it intefaces
the nominal 5V parallel port to  a 3.3V JTAG (Wiggler is to JTAG what
JDM is to PIC).  Some Routers, setboxes and consoles also use JTAG, not
just ARM chips. Mine worked 1st time on a Samsung 6400. It seems I may
have been "lucky" as "proper" JTAG programmers are recommended.

The pic programmers are really only use for PICs. You might as well try
to use an Allen (hex) key on a slotted screw as use a PIC programmer for
anything else.

A PIC itself  is proprietary too. (SX is a little different and 32F are
not really PIC, but MIPS)

USB JTAG http://www.hs-augsburg.de/~hhoegl/proj/usbjtag/usbjtag.html

Unlike a PIC programmer a "Wiggler" JTAG programmer will program many
devices, but NOT a PIC.

2010\04\14@185118 by Mario =?utf-8?Q?Castel=C3=A1n?= Castro n/a

picon face
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April 14th 2010 for "Olin Lathrop" <@spam@olin_piclistRemoveMEspamEraseMEembedinc.com> copy in
EraseMEpiclistspam@spam@mit.edu thread "Re: [PIC] I'm new with PICs".

>>I mean: The microchip license is propietary because it only allows use
>>with microchip products.

>But so what, since the PicKit 2 isn't much use for anything other
>than programming and debugging PICs?

I think you have no idea of the slide effects of that "only microchip
products" clause :S.  Worthless discussing.
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2010\04\14@190854 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 2:14 AM, Jan Wagemakers
<@spam@jan.wagemakersspam_OUTspam.....gmail.com> wrote:

> [pk2cmd and DFSG]
>> I am not a lawyer, but it seems the "Microchip products only" does not
>> play well with #6 since it restrict the use. So you can not use the
>> source codes and modify it to program say an Atmel AVR.
>
> Indeed. I was playing with the idea to create a Debian package for pk2cmd
> and then trying to get it in Debian (like I have done with picprog¹).
> That's why I was interested in the license. But it seems that I can spend my
> free time somewhere else ;-)

This one looks promising: open source USB PIC porgrammer:
http://usbpicprog.org/

Of course you can also try Wisp648 and xwisp2 (serial based,
but works with USB to serial converter as well)
http://www.voti.nl/wisp648/index.html
http://www.robh.nl/picsoft.php


--
Xiaofan http://mcuee.blogspot.com

2010\04\14@193759 by David Meiklejohn

face
flavicon
face
Olin Lathrop wrote:
>
> David Meiklejohn wrote:
>> So I've got 11 unused pins, and now I need to add some buttons for
>> setting the time and alarm (and I'll use 1 or 2 pins to drive a
>> piezo). The obvious, non-time wasting solution is to use those unused
>> pins.
>
> No, it's to go out and buy a alarm clock.

True!  :-)

But then, they don't do exactly what I want.  That's the nice thing about
designing your own widget, even when you can buy a cheaper one that's 90%
right.



2010\04\14@200437 by Tamas Rudnai

face picon face
On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 2:52 PM, Jan Wagemakers <spamBeGonejan.wagemakersEraseMEspamgmail.com>wrote:

> // You may use, copy, modify and distribute the Software for use with
> Microchip
> // products only.  If you distribute the Software or its derivatives, the
>

Little bit confusing, as let's say I have a PicKit2 clone, which is not a
Microchip product, right? But the PIC on it is the product of Microchip
actually, as well as the PIC on the device I am programming with that clone.
Am I violating the copyright here?

Also, I have an original PICkit2 with the software (firmware) from
microchip. I use it with a non-Microchip programmer software like piklab
under Linux. Am I violating the copyright here?

Tamas




{Quote hidden}

> -

2010\04\14@205018 by Mario =?utf-8?Q?Castel=C3=A1n?= Castro n/a

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April 14th 2010 for Tamas Rudnai <tamas.rudnaispamBeGonespamgmail.com> copy in
RemoveMEpiclist@spam@spamspamBeGonemit.edu thread "[PIC] I'm new with PICs"

>Little bit confusing, as let's say I have a PicKit2 clone, which is
>not a Microchip product, right? But the PIC on it is the product of
>Microchip actually, as well as the PIC on the device I am programming
>with that clone.  Am I violating the copyright here?

>Also, I have an original PICkit2 with the software (firmware) from
>microchip. I use it with a non-Microchip programmer software like
>piklab under Linux. Am I violating the copyright here?

Again Linux is the kernel.  You mean GNU/Linux.

I'm not a lawyer but I think yes, you are violating the copyright
because the it says "with Microchip products only" instead of "with
Microchip microcontrollers only".  Actually, even if you use Microchip
PicKit2 to program a Microchip µC the driver is running on a computer,
wich is, not a microchip product (And violating the copyright).

This is why I only use free software :D.
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2010\04\14@235124 by Mario =?utf-8?Q?Castel=C3=A1n?= Castro n/a

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April 14th 2010 in .....piclist@spam@spamEraseMEmit.edu thread "[PIC] I'm new with PICs".

After thinking and searching I decided to use AVR's.  They seems fits
better my "needs" because there are some USB programmers available
wich works with GNU/Linux.  Plus, there is gcc-avr and much free
software support than with PICs.

Anyway thanks by all your comments :).
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2010\04\15@010732 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 11:52 AM, Mario Castelán Castro
<.....marioxccRemoveMEspamgnu.org> wrote:
> After thinking and searching I decided to use AVR's.  They seems fits
> better my "needs" because there are some USB programmers available
> wich works with GNU/Linux.  Plus, there is gcc-avr and much free
> software support than with PICs.
>
> Anyway thanks by all your comments :).

Very good choice. For the USB programmer, you might want to
consider usbprog. It supports AVR and ARM and it is actually
very flexible.
http://www.embedded-projects.net/index.php?page_id=165

This is also very good: Versaloon.
http://www.simonqian.com/en/Versaloon/

One of the avrdude supported programmer is actually using
PIC24 as the brain: bus pirate.
www.nongnu.org/avrdude/user-manual/avrdude_1.html
http://dangerousprototypes.com/2009/10/04/prototype-bus-pirate-v3/

--
Xiaofan http://mcuee.blogspot.com

2010\04\15@013635 by William \Chops\ Westfield

face picon face

On Apr 14, 2010, at 3:52 PM, Mario Castelán Castro wrote:

> I think you have no idea of the slide effects of that "only microchip
> products" clause ...

This is the "in order to make this a debian package, all the licenses
of all the pieces involved have to be both well documented and  
compatible
with what debian thinks is an appropriate license."  So if the license  
for
PICKit2 is "inappropriate", it can't become an official "package", and  
anyone
who wants to use it will have to, you know, actually download software  
on
their own or maybe even compile from source!

The Arduino crowd got dinged recently on a similar packaging effort  
because
their trivial example sketches (blink.pde and etc) weren't clearly  
labeled
with an appropriate license.

In order to avoid straying off-topic, I will avoid commenting on how  
stupid
it is to have taken control from money grubbing software publishers  
and given
it to money grubbing lawyers instead.

BillW

2010\04\15@075312 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
Xiaofan Chen wrote:
> This one looks promising: open source USB PIC porgrammer:
> http://usbpicprog.org/

If you're willing to do some work, you can use my programmers for anything
you want.  The command set for all my programmers is fully published with no
restrictions.  Anyone can get a USBProg, USBProg2, LProg, or ProProg, write
host code for it on any platform they want, then use them to program PICs,
anything else with a clock/data interface, or use them to hold doors open.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2010\04\15@080755 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face

Mario Castelán Castro wrote:
> I'm not a lawyer but I think yes, you are violating the copyright
> because the it says "with Microchip products only" instead of "with
> Microchip microcontrollers only".  Actually, even if you use Microchip
> PicKit2 to program a Microchip µC the driver is running on a computer,
> wich is, not a microchip product (And violating the copyright).

That's ridiculous, obviously.  Clearly Microchip knows their software will
likely be running on a normal PC, which they don't make.

Even if you want to interpret their text literally, note that is says "with"
Microchip product, not "on a system made exclusively of" Microchip products.
By a strict definition of "with" you can argue that as long as a Microchip
product is in the chain somewhere, the condition has been satisfied.  So as
long as you're using it to program a PIC, you're safe.

> This is why I only use free software

I can see that logic and reason have nothing to do with your stance.  It's
clearly faith based superstition with a agenda, in other words religious.
Please take that elsewhere.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2010\04\15@081314 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 8:07 PM, Olin Lathrop <.....olin_piclistSTOPspamspam@spam@embedinc.com> wrote:

>> This is why I only use free software
>
> I can see that logic and reason have nothing to do with your stance.  It's
> clearly faith based superstition with an agenda, in other words religious.
> Please take that elsewhere.
>

Yeah, he will use AVR. Good move for him, and I think that
is also good for the PIClist. ;-)


--
Xiaofan http://mcuee.blogspot.com

2010\04\15@083616 by Michael Watterson

face picon face
Olin Lathrop wrote:
> Xiaofan Chen wrote:
>  
>> This one looks promising: open source USB PIC porgrammer:
>> http://usbpicprog.org/
>>    
>
>  
No 18FxxJxx, probably due to lack of programable VDD etc. I hope my
pickit2 comes soon. I have my 64 pin 1867J50 mounted on wouter's DIL
adaptor. 3mm chisel tip $10 earthered soldering iron (interchangeable
tips), tinned pads with lead free solder, wicked off excess on a few and
gently press down chip pins with clean dry iron. I do have a very basic
power controller on iron.
> If you're willing to do some work, you can use my programmers for anything
> you want.  The command set for all my programmers is fully published with no
> restrictions.  Anyone can get a USBProg, USBProg2, LProg, or ProProg, write
> host code for it on any platform they want, then use them to program PICs,
> anything else with a clock/data interface, or use them to hold doors open.
>  
What advantage has http://www.embedinc.com/products/lprog/index.htm or
http://www.embedinc.com/products/usbprog/index.htm over the pickit2?

Since none of the code involved in host or programmer pod goes into
target (only one's own code) I can't see how use of any proprietary tool
"taints" the target in gpl sense. If one has that sensibility. Seems to
me Kashrut is more logical, and I'm not even Jewish.

2010\04\15@090041 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 8:35 PM, Michael Watterson <mikeEraseMEspam@spam@radioway.org> wrote:
>>> This one looks promising: open source USB PIC porgrammer:
>>> http://usbpicprog.org/
>>>
> No 18FxxJxx, probably due to lack of programable VDD etc. I hope my
> pickit2 comes soon.

The new schematics suggest the support of 3.3V PICs but the firmware
and host software support is not there yet. The only advantage it has
over PICkit 2 is only for those people who want to use "free" open
source host software. Take note the firmware is still based on Microchip
USB Stack so that Microchip's license should apply for the firmware.
http://usbpicprog.org/?page_id=5

> What advantage has http://www.embedinc.com/products/lprog/index.htm or
> http://www.embedinc.com/products/usbprog/index.htm over the pickit2?
>

The main advantage of usbprog is mainly on the hardware design
and thus the higher cost. I think it is a good product and may well
worth the money. One important feature is that it works even if the
USB port voltage is lower than certain threshold value where PICkit 2
may not work properly (PICkit 2's Vdd is not able to be higher than
the USB port voltage minus some drops).
http://www.microchip.com/forums/tm.aspx?m=283491

The chip support is quite good, but still not as good as PICkit 2.
The cost is higher than PICkit 2.
And it does not function as a debugger.

But PICKit 2 is being abandoned by Microchip. And I
am not really using it lately (instead I am using the USB bootloader).
So hopefully Olin can drop my title as the resident PICKit 2
evangelist. I hereby tender my resignation. ;-)

--
Xiaofan http://mcuee.blogspot.com

2010\04\15@090345 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
Michael Watterson wrote:
> What advantage has http://www.embedinc.com/products/lprog/index.htm or
> http://www.embedinc.com/products/usbprog/index.htm over the pickit2?

For one, I make money on the former but not the latter.

Seriously though, for a hobbyist on a budget even I recommend the PicKit2.
It supports a wide range of PICs, can be used as a debugger at least in some
cases, and it's cheap (in both senses of the word).

My products are more for commercial and industrial users where quality and
ruggedness matter.  The PicKit2 is not a production programmer, even
according to Microchip.  Neither is the ICD2 for that matter.  My products
don't play fast and loose with the specs.  They are guaranteed to work
correctly over the full range of legal USB power voltages, for example.

The LProg is the world's least expensive fully compliant PIC programmer as
far as I know.  This one is a little different in that it may have appeal to
hobbyists.  If you just want to program a 3.3V PIC, it's the least expensive
fully built programmer you can get that doesn't cut corners with any specs.
We've seen a bunch get embedded into production fixtures where the PIC type
is known.  The advantage it has is that's incapable of frying a 3.3V PIC by
applying higher voltages to it, like 5.5V Vdd or 13V on Vpp.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2010\04\15@092503 by Kari Laine

picon face
Hi,

cheap way and multi platform is the BV513 PIC-board from Byvac.
http://www.byvac.com

You program it with basic. I connects to PC with USB and shows up as a
serial device
and you can use any terminal program. I have mostly
used it with Windows with BV-Comm (free from Byvac).
But should work with minicom in Linux. If not let me know - please.
I am going to test it soon.

Best  Regards
Kari

--
PIC - ARM - Microcontrollers - I2C - SPI
Keypads - USB-RS232 - USB-I2C - Accessories
http://www.byvac.com
I am just a happy customer

2010\04\15@092603 by Marechiare

picon face
Michael Watterson asked:
> What advantage has www.embedinc.com/products/lprog/index.htm
> or http://www.embedinc.com/products/usbprog/index.htm over the pickit2?

Xiaofan Chen answered:
> But PICKit 2 is being abandoned by Microchip.

Michael, you have great opportunity to criticize Olin's usbprogs here
in front of the crowd (if you were lucky to find any issue with them),
I'm sure he or someone else would advise you how to work around the
issue. With pickit2 you'll need to go to MCHP forum, and I am not sure
you'll find an answer there right from the pickit2 developer.

2010\04\15@092928 by Michael Watterson

face picon face
Xiaofan Chen wrote:
> But PICKit 2 is being abandoned by Microchip. And I
> am not really using it lately (instead I am using the USB bootloader).
> So hopefully Olin can drop my title as the resident PICKit 2
> evangelist. I hereby tender my resignation. ;-)
>  
Presumably because they want you to buy pickit 3?

I tried to buy pickit 2 from Microchip, It was only €24. But delivery
was end of May. So I ordered a Chinese clone at about €30 inc postage
from "china". An official one was about £30 + postage in UK. A Ukranian
clone was same price as China, but higher postage and no case.

[OT postage rant]
China/Thailand/Singapore/HongKong to Ireland seems to be 7 to 12 days.
With lower postage cost than Netherlands or UK (which typically takes 6
days, despite being "next door". Australian postage is about 1/2 North
America (Canada more expensive than USA) and about 10 days (maybe New
Zealand is furthest from us). I also think USPS stick stuff in a drawer
for a week as USA stuff takes a week longer than anywhere else. I want a
"search world except USA" button now on eBay and Internet as USA postage
is so high, delivery so slow and often USA companies want a credit card
issued by a USA bank. I fail to see difference with Visa Card issued by
Irish bank. I have found Singapore, China Mainland, Hong Kong and
Thailand fast for delivery and 100% reliable. Australia cheaper and
faster than North America. UK is expensive postage, considering
closeness. Usually Netherlands, Germany, France, Ukrain, Italy, Spain
cheaper and just as fast. I've had trouble though with Spanish companies
that want to supply me via their UK & Ireland agent. It's a PAIN how
many Eurozone companies "give Ireland" to the UK distributor. They use
Euro, Ireland uses Euro and UK uses Sterling. (To USA cousins imagine if
New Jersey or California had its own separate unlinked currency and it
and your state were the only English speaking and all others had Spanish
as main language!)
[/OT postage rant]

2010\04\15@093340 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 9:26 PM, Marechiare <RemoveMEmarechiarespamspamBeGonegmail.com> wrote:
> Xiaofan Chen answered:
>> But PICKit 2 is being abandoned by Microchip.
>
> Michael, you have great opportunity to criticize Olin's usbprogs here
> in front of the crowd (if you were lucky to find any issue with them),
>  I'm sure he or someone else would advise you how to work around the
> issue. With pickit2 you'll need to go to MCHP forum, and I am not sure
> you'll find an answer there right from the pickit2 developer.

You got the answer from the previous PICKit 2 keeper (Walter),
or me, or Funny NYPD or others. The community support is
very good even if Microchip formally abandons PICkit 2 in
the future. ;-)
http://www.microchip.com/forums/tt.aspx?forumid=15



--
Xiaofan http://mcuee.blogspot.com

2010\04\15@094742 by Michael Watterson

face picon face
Marechiare wrote:
> Michael Watterson asked:
>  
>> What advantage has www.embedinc.com/products/lprog/index.htm
>> or http://www.embedinc.com/products/usbprog/index.htm over the pickit2?
>>    
>
> Xiaofan Chen answered:
>  
>> But PICKit 2 is being abandoned by Microchip.
>>    
>
> Michael, you have great opportunity to criticize Olin's usbprogs here
> in front of the crowd (if you were lucky to find any issue with them),
>  I'm sure he or someone else would advise you how to work around the
> issue. With pickit2 you'll need to go to MCHP forum, and I am not sure
> you'll find an answer there right from the pickit2 developer.
>  
I think Olin gave me a straightforward answer. I don't feel any need to
criticize either  supplier. I discovered my homebrew programmer won't do
the 18F67J50 or PIC18F46J50, both of which I have as alternatives to
18F4550, to get more code space, a little more I/O and still have USB.  
I was recommended the Pickit 2 on this list as the solution and ordered
one. I was curious about Olin's products now that they are mentioned.

I *do* have a problem. I changed the JAL include for 18f67j50 and
changed the pragmas (fuses). The JAL (2.4m) compiler crashes,
apparently  with  nul pointer dereference after creating p-code but
before final compilation.

The project works fine physically on 18F4550, 28K (to 31900 if I add in
import/export Radio to PC) code.

The compiler will compile a "blink led" for 18F67J50, but I can't test
that yet on HW. I've posted more comprehensively on this in jallib on
google groups and jallist on yahoo.

2010\04\15@095025 by Jan Wagemakers

face picon face
Xiaofan Chen schreef:

> This one looks promising: open source USB PIC porgrammer:
> http://usbpicprog.org/

I have taking a very quick look at it (the sun is shinning, so I'm sitting
outside with a nice Belgian Beer ;o) ) and indeed that looks interesting.
Even the schematic/PCB is created with free(dom) software.

Thanks for the link!


--
Met vriendelijke groetjes         - Jan Wagemakers -

- Debian GNU/Linux squeeze/sid -

2010\04\15@111133 by Marechiare

picon face
>>> But PICKit 2 is being abandoned by Microchip.
>>
>> Michael, you have great opportunity to criticize Olin's usbprogs here
>> in front of the crowd (if you were lucky to find any issue with them),
>>  I'm sure he or someone else would advise you how to work around the
>> issue. With pickit2 you'll need to go to MCHP forum, and I am not sure
>> you'll find an answer there right from the pickit2 developer.
>
> You got the answer from the previous PICKit 2 keeper (Walter),
> or me, or Funny NYPD or others.

Yes, but still, "keepers" of the device are not "developers" of it. A
developer knows (and is responsible for) his product better than just
a "keeper".

2010\04\15@175430 by george.oconner

picon face

W
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

-----Original Message-----
From: "Mario Castelán Castro" <spamBeGonemarioxccKILLspamspam@spam@gnu.org>
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 19:51:20
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.<piclistspam_OUTspam@spam@mit.edu>
Cc: <spamBeGonepiclist@spam@spammit.edu>
Subject: Re: [PIC] I'm new with PICs

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

April 14th 2010 for Tamas Rudnai <RemoveMEtamas.rudnaiEraseMEspamKILLspamgmail.com> copy in
spamBeGonepiclistspam_OUTspamRemoveMEmit.edu thread "[PIC] I'm new with PICs"

>Little bit confusing, as let's say I have a PicKit2 clone, which is
>not a Microchip product, right? But the PIC on it is the product of
>Microchip actually, as well as the PIC on the device I am programming
>with that clone.  Am I violating the copyright here?

>Also, I have an original PICkit2 with the software (firmware) from
>microchip. I use it with a non-Microchip programmer software like
>piklab under Linux. Am I violating the copyright here?

Again Linux is the kernel.  You mean GNU/Linux.

I'm not a lawyer but I think yes, you are violating the copyright
because the it says "with Microchip products only" instead of "with
Microchip microcontrollers only".  Actually, even if you use Microchip
PicKit2 to program a Microchip µC the driver is running on a computer,
wich is, not a microchip product (And violating the copyright).

This is why I only use free software :D.
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Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)

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GwAAnixJVjxm6KgrWkf0g0AA6bDjfdKB
=CwbR
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2010\04\15@181836 by george.oconner

picon face

       P.                     @                           p.p.  P
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

{Original Message removed}

2010\04\15@184606 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 11:11 PM, Marechiare <.....marechiarespamRemoveMEgmail.com> wrote:
>> You got the answer from the previous PICKit 2 keeper (Walter),
>> or me, or Funny NYPD or others.
>
> Yes, but still, "keepers" of the device are not "developers" of it. A
> developer knows (and is responsible for) his product better than just
> a "keeper".

PICKit 2's first developer called himself the "keeper". So I use that
word. Walter was the developer of PICKit 2 until he left Microchip
last year. He is the one who adds firmware V2, the C# based GUI
and the pk2cmd. He probably knows PICKit 2 better than anyone.

His last username is PICkit2Dev. His current user namer is
easy to guess if you read the forum.

MichaelS is the current PICKit 2/3 keeper/developer inside Microchip.

--
Xiaofan http://mcuee.blogspot.com

2010\04\17@153851 by Marechiare

picon face
>>> You got the answer from the previous PICKit 2 keeper
>>> (Walter), or me, or Funny NYPD or others.
>>
>> Yes, but still, "keepers" of the device are not "developers"
>> of it. A developer knows (and is responsible for) his
>> product better than just a "keeper".
>
> PICKit 2's first developer called himself the "keeper".
> So I use that word. Walter was the developer of PICKit 2
> until he left Microchip last year. He is the one who adds
> firmware V2, the C# based GUI and the pk2cmd. He
> probably knows PICKit 2 better than anyone.
>
> His last username is PICkit2Dev. His current user namer
> is easy to guess if you read the forum.
>
> MichaelS is the current PICKit 2/3 keeper/developer
> inside Microchip.

Yes, I see, thank you. They are in a different league, they have GUI
written in C#.
Hypothetically, if some China mainland C# developer were to develop
the GUI for usbprog, how much would he charge per hour? I use to think
that should be within US$5/h or even less.

2010\04\17@173008 by Russell McMahon

face picon face
> Hypothetically, if some China mainland C# developer were to develop
> the GUI for usbprog, how much would he charge per hour? I use to think
> that should be within US$5/h or even less.

I'm told, although I've never as yet used the service, that if you
have a processor based product made for you in China that the software
is produced for free.  That may extend to the PC based support
software too. However YMWV.


   Russell

2010\04\17@202506 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On Sun, Apr 18, 2010 at 3:38 AM, Marechiare <marechiarespam@spam@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hypothetically, if some China mainland C# developer were to develop
> the GUI for usbprog, how much would he charge per hour? I use to think
> that should be within US$5/h or even less.

So you value the programmer to be about US$5 x 40h/week x 4 week
or US$800 per month, which is reasonable for small cities. But in
reality, I think the cost is much higher than that for the programmers
in the big cities (Shanghai, Beijing, GuangZhou, ShenZhen, where the
GDP per capita is roughly about US$10,000  and the housing
price is much higher than many part of US). And no matter where the
programmer is, often you need to go through a middle man which will
jack up the price. In that case, often there will be a minimum order value
(say US$3000).


--
Xiaofan http://mcuee.blogspot.com

2010\04\17@202725 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On Sun, Apr 18, 2010 at 5:29 AM, Russell McMahon <EraseMEapptechnzRemoveMEspamSTOPspamgmail.com> wrote:
>> Hypothetically, if some China mainland C# developer were to develop
>> the GUI for usbprog, how much would he charge per hour? I use to think
>> that should be within US$5/h or even less.
>
> I'm told, although I've never as yet used the service, that if you
> have a processor based product made for you in China that the software
> is produced for free.  That may extend to the PC based support
> software too. However YMWV.
>

This may well be the case if your order value exceeds certain amount.
That certain amount depends on the company.

But remember Olin still needs to support the host GUI software if he
wants to do that. So he would probably not choose a outsider to
do that.

--
Xiaofan http://mcuee.blogspot.com

2010\04\17@214127 by Spehro Pefhany

picon face
At 08:27 PM 4/17/2010, you wrote:
>On Sun, Apr 18, 2010 at 5:29 AM, Russell McMahon <RemoveMEapptechnzKILLspamspamTakeThisOuTgmail.com> wrote:
> >> Hypothetically, if some China mainland C# developer were to develop
> >> the GUI for usbprog, how much would he charge per hour? I use to think
> >> that should be within US$5/h or even less.
> >
> > I'm told, although I've never as yet used the service, that if you
> > have a processor based product made for you in China that the software
> > is produced for free.  That may extend to the PC based support
> > software too. However YMWV.
> >
>
>This may well be the case if your order value exceeds certain amount.
>That certain amount depends on the company.
>
>But remember Olin still needs to support the host GUI software if he
>wants to do that. So he would probably not choose a outsider to
>do that.

Perhaps it goes without saying, but if the company provides the software
for a subsidized price, let alone free, they are going to feel even less
obligation than usual to not use it for whatever other purposes that may
generate overall higher profits for them.

Best regards,

Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the reward"
spamBeGonespeffspam@spam@interlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com



2010\04\18@081858 by Marechiare

picon face
Xiaofan Chen wrote:

> or US$800 per month, which is reasonable for small
> cities.  But in reality, I think the cost is much higher
> than that for the programmers in the big cities
> (Shanghai, Beijing, GuangZhou, ShenZhen, where the
> GDP per capita is roughly about US$10,000  and
> the housing price is much higher than many part of
> US). And no matter where the programmer is, often
> you need to go through a middle man which will
> jack up the price. In that case, often there will be a
> minimum order value (say US$3000).

What keywords should one use to google for such "middle mans"?
Obviously they should be present in Internet and should be advertising
themselves..

2010\04\18@085137 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On Sun, Apr 18, 2010 at 8:18 PM, Marechiare <RemoveMEmarechiarespam_OUTspamgmail.com> wrote:
>> or US$800 per month, which is reasonable for small
>> cities.  But in reality, I think the cost is much higher
>> than that for the programmers in the big cities
>> (Shanghai, Beijing, GuangZhou, ShenZhen, where the
>> GDP per capita is roughly about US$10,000  and
>> the housing price is much higher than many part of
>> US). And no matter where the programmer is, often
>> you need to go through a middle man which will
>> jack up the price. In that case, often there will be a
>> minimum order value (say US$3000).
>
> What keywords should one use to google for such "middle mans"?
> Obviously they should be present in Internet and should be advertising
> themselves..
>

I really do not know. I am not in the software business and
I am in Singapore.


--
Xiaofan http://mcuee.blogspot.com

2010\04\18@090846 by Michael Watterson

face picon face
Xiaofan Chen wrote:
{Quote hidden}

http://www.leadtek.com/  in Tiawan? They seem to have a lot of industry
contacts. They do a lot of OEM and small / specialist projects.
I've met some of their guys and they seem very clued up. Maybe no value
talking to them but you never know.

I find with many companies a random email is ignored, but an initial
phone call opens up the communication channels.

2010\04\18@092559 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
Xiaofan Chen wrote:
> But remember Olin still needs to support the host GUI software if he
> wants to do that. So he would probably not choose a outsider to
> do that.

There is a GUI-in-progress already available as a wrapper for PIC_PROG.
Install the latest PIC programmer software from
http://www.embedinc.com/picprg/sw.htm, then execute the menu PROGRAMS >
EMBED INC > PROGRAM PIC.  There is a local guy I sometimes used who I
promised a fixed sum to when he finishes the GUI.  He got part way, then
always seems to have something else to do.  That's where it's been for over
a year now.  I occasionally remind him I owe him some money if he were to
finish the GUI.  Oh well, no cost on my end until he does.

Personally I think GUIs for simple command line programs are silly.  It
takes longer to clickety-click your way to supplying all the parameters, it
can't be automated or scripted, the possibility of new errors is introduced,
and at best all the underlying program's reported errors are properly shown
to the user.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2010\04\18@092715 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On Sun, Apr 18, 2010 at 9:41 AM, Spehro Pefhany <spam_OUTspeffspam_OUTspamspam_OUTinterlog.com> wrote:
>
> Perhaps it goes without saying, but if the company provides the software
> for a subsidized price, let alone free, they are going to feel even less
> obligation than usual to not use it for whatever other purposes that may
> generate overall higher profits for them.
>

Very true. Probably they will just clone USBProg at much lower cost
than Olin and they will probably add a casing and modify the GUI
and create a lower cost version and call it SuperUsbProg. ;-)

The current price of USBPro is quite reasonable at US$80. But
I am sure an small shop in China can probably produce it
at much lower cost.
http://www.embedinc.com/products/usbprog/index.htm

--
Xiaofan http://mcuee.blogspot.com

2010\04\18@092831 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On Sun, Apr 18, 2010 at 9:08 PM, Michael Watterson <mikespam_OUTspamradioway.org> wrote:
>>
> http://www.leadtek.com/  in Tiawan? They seem to have a lot of industry
> contacts. They do a lot of OEM and small / specialist projects.
> I've met some of their guys and they seem very clued up. Maybe no value
> talking to them but you never know.

LeadTek is a leading graphic card producer. So I am not sure
if they are the best ones to talk to.

> I find with many companies a random email is ignored, but an initial
> phone call opens up the communication channels.

That is probably true.


--
Xiaofan http://mcuee.blogspot.com

2010\04\18@095323 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On Sun, Apr 18, 2010 at 9:25 PM, Olin Lathrop <RemoveMEolin_piclistKILLspamspam@spam@embedinc.com> wrote:
>
> There is a GUI-in-progress already available as a wrapper for PIC_PROG.
> Install the latest PIC programmer software from
> http://www.embedinc.com/picprg/sw.htm, then execute the menu PROGRAMS >
> EMBED INC > PROGRAM PIC.

I see. I think it is a simple GUI, but can probably satisfy some people's
desire to use a GUI. Probably you want to add the read option (pic_read
wrapper) as well.

> Personally I think GUIs for simple command line programs are silly.  It
> takes longer to clickety-click your way to supplying all the parameters, it
> can't be automated or scripted, the possibility of new errors is introduced,
> and at best all the underlying program's reported errors are properly shown
> to the user.

I think it will still help many Windows users. I am sure the GUI version
of PICKit 2 program have many more users than the command line
version (pk2cmd). And MPLAB is more often used to drive PICkit 3
and ICD 3 than the console program Microchip provided. Of course
the rather strange command line option of Microchip console
program may play a part as well.

But you may want to add -help as the command line option to
show the usage as well for pic_read and pic_prog.

On a separate note, you seem to use the bulkusb driver sample as
the basis of your USB driver (judging from the name). It is probably good
that you move to WinUSB driver which has the advantage of working
under 64bit Windows Vista/Win7 (but lose Win2k support which I am not
sure if it is important to you).
http://www.microchip.com/forums/fb.aspx?m=489336

bulkusb is kind of legacy now.

PICKit 2 and PICkit 3 use HID class so that no host driver is
necessary.


--
Xiaofan http://mcuee.blogspot.com

2010\04\18@100417 by Michael Watterson
face picon face
Xiaofan Chen wrote:
> On Sun, Apr 18, 2010 at 9:08 PM, Michael Watterson <mikespamBeGonespam.....radioway.org> wrote:
>  
>> http://www.leadtek.com/  in Tiawan? They seem to have a lot of industry
>> contacts. They do a lot of OEM and small / specialist projects.
>> I've met some of their guys and they seem very clued up. Maybe no value
>> talking to them but you never know.
>>    
>
> LeadTek is a leading graphic card producer. So I am not sure
> if they are the best ones to talk to.
>
>  
That is the better known part. The bigger part by R&D is the other stuff
they do (which is what I was involved with)
SoICs, RF, Modems, GPS, PMP, IP cameras etc.. I never met anyone from
the Graphics part. Select Products on Chinese site.

In fact I had been talking to them some while before I found they did
Graphics cards. The guys I spoke to never mentioned it. Their division
only makes low volume, concentrating on Design and SW. Then someone in
China makes and brands it if there is a volume market. Much of what they
do isn't branded Leadtek at all.

But again, they may be useless to talk to anyway.
>> I find with many companies a random email is ignored, but an initial
>> phone call opens up the communication channels.
>>    
>
> That is probably true.
>
>
>  

2010\04\18@105451 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
Xiaofan Chen wrote:
> But you may want to add -help as the command line option to
> show the usage as well for pic_read and pic_prog.

I don't like that because then the documentation would be in two places and
would inevitably get out of sync.  I suppose the -HELP command line option
could dump the doc file to standard output, but then someone would want a
MORE function, want all programs to do that, etc.  For now the answer is
that programs are documente in the DOC directory, and that's not likely to
change.

> On a separate note, you seem to use the bulkusb driver sample as
> the basis of your USB driver (judging from the name).

Yes, that Microsoft example was cloned a few years ago to make the driver
for our generic USB protocol stack.

> It is probably good
> that you move to WinUSB driver which has the advantage of working
> under 64bit Windows Vista/Win7 (but lose Win2k support which I am not
> sure if it is important to you).

Window 2000 support is still a big deal.  It also costs real money to
develop drivers.  I realize 64 bit Windows is eventually coming, but I
thought there was some compatibility mode.  Don't you also need to pay off
Microsoft to get 64 bit drivers signed else they can't be loaded?  There are
a lot of issues with 64 bit drivers, and I'm thinking Microsoft will be
forced to make things a little easier, so little guys like me are better off
waiting for now.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2010\04\18@191455 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On Sun, Apr 18, 2010 at 10:54 PM, Olin Lathrop
<KILLspamolin_piclistspam.....embedinc.com> wrote:
>> It is probably good
>> that you move to WinUSB driver which has the advantage of working
>> under 64bit Windows Vista/Win7 (but lose Win2k support which I am not
>> sure if it is important to you).
>
> Window 2000 support is still a big deal.  It also costs real money to
> develop drivers.  I realize 64 bit Windows is eventually coming, but I
> thought there was some compatibility mode.  Don't you also need to pay off
> Microsoft to get 64 bit drivers signed else they can't be loaded?  There are
> a lot of issues with 64 bit drivers, and I'm thinking Microsoft will be
> forced to make things a little easier, so little guys like me are better off
> waiting for now.
>

WinUSB is there to help you to go to 64bit Windows without paying
money. It is built-in in Windows Vista and Windows 7 (32bit and 64bit),
can be installed in XP (32 bit only). Windows Server 2003 and XP 64bit
(XP 64 bit is Windows 2003 in desktop mode and has the same kernel
as Server 2003). But there are not many users of Server 2003 and XP
64bit.

If you use WinUSB with your INF file, you can install it within 64bit
Vista and Win7. There will be a warning (since you have not submitted
the driver package to WHQL), but it will be installed.

To load the driver in 64bit Vista and Win7, you do not need WHQL,
but you do need to digitally sign the driver will a recognized CA
(certification authority), Verisign is often the one and is the only
one if you want to submit for WHQL.

KMCS:
http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/winlogo/drvsign/kmcs_walkthrough.mspx

Microchip's MCHPUSB kernel driver also has embedded the digital
signature, so it is potential candidate as well.

--
Xiaofan http://mcuee.blogspot.com

2010\04\18@221335 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On Sun, Apr 18, 2010 at 10:54 PM, Olin Lathrop
<spam_OUTolin_piclistspamKILLspamembedinc.com> wrote:
> Xiaofan Chen wrote:
>> But you may want to add -help as the command line option to
>> show the usage as well for pic_read and pic_prog.
>
> I don't like that because then the documentation would be in two places and
> would inevitably get out of sync.  I suppose the -HELP command line option
> could dump the doc file to standard output, but then someone would want a
> MORE function, want all programs to do that, etc.  For now the answer is
> that programs are document in the DOC directory, and that's not likely to
> change.

The solution is easy. The -help (or -h or /?) would just point the user
to read the document in the DOC directory.

C:\embedinc\com>pic_prog
No response was received from the programmer.  The programmer may be powered
off or not connected to COM1.
Error occurred on attempt to open a new use of the PICPRG library.
*** Program aborted on error. ***

C:\embedinc\com>pic_prog -help
Unrecognized command line option "-help" encountered.
*** Program aborted on error. ***

If the last one would answer this, it would be better. ;-)

C:\embedinc\com>pic_prog -help
Please read the document pic_prog.txt in the "doc" folder. Thanks.

Or Olin Style. ;-)
C:\embedinc\com>pic_prog -help
I am not going to support this command. Just read the document
pic_prog.txt in the "doc" folder.

--
Xiaofan http://mcuee.blogspot.com

2010\04\18@223737 by Isaac Marino Bavaresco

flavicon
face
Em 18/4/2010 23:13, Xiaofan Chen escreveu:
{Quote hidden}

I think a better approach is to include the documentation in the
executable. Some simple command-line tools are comprised of only one
file, why would we need a sub-directory to hold the docs? What if
somebody copies only the executable and forget the rest?

It would be simple to keep the executable and the external documentation
up-to-date, just use the same text file as source for both the external
and internal documentation. When building the package (compiling), the
same text file could be embedded into the executable and also converted
to the documentation format (HTML, chm, PDF, etc).


Regards,

Isaac
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