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'[PIC] Digital Sound'
2008\07\16@144537 by threewheeler7

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i have a project in development that will require around 15 seconds of
pre-recorded audio to be played back, it needs to be of fairly descent
quality. i am using a mid-range PIC for the projects other functions. this
will be my first micro controller based project with audio. i need some
suggestions for some sort of inexpensive solution.  
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2008\07\16@151522 by olin piclist

face picon face
threewheeler7 wrote:
> i have a project in development that will require around 15 seconds of
> pre-recorded audio to be played back,

OK so far.

> it needs to be of fairly descent quality.

Now that's a totally useless statement.

There is no point suggesting schemes until you know what you want.

********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2008\07\16@152818 by Bob Blick

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flavicon
face

On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 15:17:21 -0400, "Olin Lathrop"
<spam_OUTolin_piclistTakeThisOuTspamembedinc.com> said:
> threewheeler7 wrote:
> > i have a project in development that will require around 15 seconds of
> > pre-recorded audio to be played back,
>
> OK so far.
>
> > it needs to be of fairly descent quality.
>
> Now that's a totally useless statement.
>
> There is no point suggesting schemes until you know what you want.

Stern stuff, but I have to agree. For instance, if you've listened to
the output from ISD chips and think that's good enough, that'd be
something to mention. Or if you've experimented with your PC and a
"decent" sound editor and reduced the number of bits(you can fake it by
doing a volume reduction and then raising it back up) and the
bitrate(you can fake it by doing pitch shifting a number of times and
then doing it the other way).

Or maybe just talking about it in terms of telephone/AM radio/etc
quality.

By the way, what did you think about all the servo driving ideas you got
in response to your question the other day?

Cheerful regards,

Bob

--
http://www.fastmail.fm - I mean, what is it about a decent email service?

2008\07\16@163630 by threewheeler7

picon face


well Bob, the servo suggestions helped allot, i did not get a chance to post
results yet.
i know that was way to vague, i have a fine line between price and quality,
somewhere around 22khz would be ideal but i just don't know enough about the
technology to have a grasp of what is possible(or, economical i should say).



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2008\07\16@164725 by William \Chops\ Westfield

face picon face

On Jul 16, 2008, at 12:17 PM, Olin Lathrop wrote:

>> it needs to be of fairly descent quality.
>
> Now that's a totally useless statement.
> There is no point suggesting schemes until you know what you want.

Does anyone have numbers to go with:
ISD quality.  Telephone Quality (56kbps!)  AM radio quality.  FM  
Radio Quality.

The "standard" scheme is serial flash memory of some type and an A-D  
converter.  You get to pick and trade bits and sample rate to get  
more or less quality with more or less memory.  At some point, you  
start looking at consumer "flash cards" for storage rather than  
chips.  Here's an open source design (and kit) designed to be used  
with AVR:

http://www.adafruit.com/index.php?
main_page=product_info&cPath=17_21&products_id=94

BillW

2008\07\16@165540 by Bob Blick

face
flavicon
face
Sort of AM radio quality then. That can amount to quite a bit of memory
in 15 seconds. More than you could store in a 256 kilobit eeprom, even
compressed. And higher quality than the ISD chips provide. Maybe store
it in an SD card?

Cheerful regards,

Bob

On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 13:36:07 -0700 (PDT), "threewheeler7"
<.....threewheeler7KILLspamspam@spam@hotmail.com> said:
> i know that was way to vague, i have a fine line between price and
> quality,
> somewhere around 22khz would be ideal but i just don't know enough about
> the
> technology to have a grasp of what is possible(or, economical i should
> say).


--
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2008\07\16@170215 by Richard Seriani, Sr.

picon face

----- Original Message -----
From: "threewheeler7" <threewheeler7spamKILLspamhotmail.com>
To: <.....piclistKILLspamspam.....mit.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2008 2:45 PM
Subject: [PIC] Digital Sound


>
> i have a project in development that will require around 15 seconds of
> pre-recorded audio to be played back, it needs to be of fairly descent
> quality. i am using a mid-range PIC for the projects other functions. this
> will be my first micro controller based project with audio. i need some
> suggestions for some sort of inexpensive solution.
> --

Several months ago I started, and am still intermittantly working on, a
similar design - just a little longer record time. I've used a 16F88 and,
later, a 16F883, and saved data to a 25LC1024 (1 Mbit SPI EEPROM). Using
MCP4821 DAC to recover audio. Not complete, but ...('excuses' not
necessary).

Check the archives under the subject: [PIC] A/D and D/A using PIC16F88
for the suggestions others provided to help me get this going/make it
better.

Good luck,
Richard

>


2008\07\16@171740 by Nate Duehr

face
flavicon
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Richard Seriani, Sr. wrote:

> Several months ago I started, and am still intermittantly working on, a
> similar design - just a little longer record time. I've used a 16F88 and,
> later, a 16F883, and saved data to a 25LC1024 (1 Mbit SPI EEPROM). Using
> MCP4821 DAC to recover audio. Not complete, but ...('excuses' not
> necessary).

Any reason not to use one of the well-tested, well-documented chips from
ISD that already do all this stuff?

Nate

2008\07\16@172348 by threewheeler7

picon face

so i address the memory of the flash memory with my PIC, and send the
resulting bytes to an a/d? how would i get the uncompressed audio converted
and on the flash? and when you are talking about using consumer flash cards,
isn't that a whole other ballpark? i don't know i am just picking your
brain.


William &quot;Chops&quot; Westfield wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2008\07\16@172816 by olin piclist

face picon face
threewheeler7 wrote:
> somewhere around 22khz would be ideal ...

22KHz *what*?  Sample rate or bandwidth?  This makes a big difference.  And
you still haven't specified bits/sample.

Maybe you should describe the sound you are trying to reproduce and the
purpose of that reproduction.  Is it voice speaking directions someone just
needs to understand, or is it music that needs to sound like a live concert?


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(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2008\07\16@172902 by threewheeler7

picon face

just how much can you store on a 256 eeprom?
and do you know of a pre-built alternative, if i cannot get this to work
soon?


Bob Blick-4 wrote:
>
> Sort of AM radio quality then. That can amount to quite a bit of memory
> in 15 seconds. More than you could store in a 256 kilobit eeprom, even
> compressed. And higher quality than the ISD chips provide. Maybe store
> it in an SD card?
>

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2008\07\16@172905 by olin piclist

face picon face
Bob Blick wrote:
> Sort of AM radio quality then.

Not if he's looking for 22KHz bandwidth.  That's more than most people can
hear and exceeds even FM quality.


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(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2008\07\16@173207 by threewheeler7

picon face


how far along is your project and what did you write it in?



Richard Seriani, Sr. wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2008\07\16@173232 by Tomás Ó hÉilidhe

picon face


William "Chops" Westfield wrote:
> Does anyone have numbers to go with:
> ISD quality.  Telephone Quality (56kbps!)  AM radio quality.  FM  
> Radio Quality.


CD quality music is 44.1 kHz with a sample size of 16 bits. That's 88.2
kB per second, or 1.3 MB for 15 seconds.

I'm sure you'd get away with 22.1 kHz, which would bring it down to
661.5 kB per second.

(B = bytes,  b = bits)

2008\07\16@173726 by threewheeler7

picon face

ok what are these ISD chips you guys are talking about? what is the quality
that they offer?


Nate Duehr wrote:
>
>
> Any reason not to use one of the well-tested, well-documented chips from
> ISD that already do all this stuff?
>
>

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2008\07\16@173731 by olin piclist

face picon face
threewheeler7 wrote:
> just how much can you store on a 256 eeprom?

Is this a trick question, like who is buried in Grant's tomb or what color
is my blue shirt?


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(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2008\07\16@175605 by Jan-Erik Soderholm

face picon face
threewheeler7 wrote:

> ok what are these ISD chips you guys are talking about?

http://www.isd.com
Or http://www.nuvoton-usa.com/en/content/view/36/

2008\07\16@175935 by Bob Blick

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face

On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 22:32:00 +0100, "Tomás Ó hÉilidhe" <EraseMEtoespam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTlavabit.com>
said:
>
>
> CD quality music is 44.1 kHz with a sample size of 16 bits. That's 88.2
> kB per second,

Actually double that since it's two channels.

Roughly speaking, the sample rate relates to the bandwidth, and the
sample size relates to the signal to noise ratio.

This has been discussed a lot on the piclist in the past, but you can
get away with some pretty low numbers especially if you carefully
process the sound.

And if you have enough processing power to spare you can store the data
compressed and save memory.

Cheerful regards,

Bob

--
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2008\07\16@183450 by Jinx

face picon face
> Sort of AM radio quality then.
>
> Not if he's looking for 22KHz bandwidth.  That's more than
> most people can hear and exceeds even FM quality

The ISDs are lower than AM quality. Depends on the particular
chip, but I don't think, from memory, any sample faster than 8kHz

The only really good IC is the long-obsoleted TMS3477/3478,
which used CVSD. Excellent bandwidth, not quite FM radio but
pretty close. Now that micros have advanced so much I'm trying
to emulate what it does

It is pretty memory-hungry. The 3478 can interface with DRAMs
(eg 4 * 4C1024) to get about 45s playback, although I have them
running with large SRAM and EPROM too. I'd like to do what it
can do with PC RAM or Flash using a PIC

2008\07\16@193039 by Richard Seriani, Sr.

picon face

----- Original Message -----
From: "Nate Duehr" <natespamspam_OUTnatetech.com>
To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <@spam@piclistKILLspamspammit.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2008 5:18 PM
Subject: Re: [PIC] Digital Sound


{Quote hidden}

Yes. When I originally looked at the ISD chips, even their max record time
was too short by hours. The ultimate goal was to learn to do the A/D and
D/A, then increase storage time by using SD card(s).

Haven't looked at ISD in awhile. Can they do that?



2008\07\16@201642 by Richard Seriani, Sr.

picon face

----- Original Message -----
From: "threewheeler7" <KILLspamthreewheeler7KILLspamspamhotmail.com>
To: <RemoveMEpiclistTakeThisOuTspammit.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2008 5:32 PM
Subject: Re: [PIC] Digital Sound


>
>
> how far along is your project and what did you write it in?
>

Written in assembly language.

I can record audio (speech) from an amplified electret mic (and play it
back. Record time depends on sample rate; I've run it from 4 seconds to
about 45 seconds. Not happy with audio quality. Best description I can give
is too much background hiss, but understandable speech. Planned to use timer
(as suggested in the thread I mentioned) for better control of A/D and D/A
start (and synchronization), along with better output filtering, but just
haven't gotten around to it. I have a bit of a break from work (or, at least
a slowdown) coming up in about 2 weeks, so maybe then.

As mentioned in thread, I learned the various processes in stages (SPI comm,
storage to/reading from EEPROM, A/D, D/A), then put them together.

This started out as a research project through the local university, which I
took on as an opportunity to learn what I could about a few of the mid-range
PICs. Successfully proved concept within constraints I was given, but
personally unhappy with record/playback quality. Lots of time spent studying
the datasheets for the PIC(s), EEPROM, and DAC, as well as several Microchip
application notes and tutorials, and several internet sources. Tried to do
as much as possible before asking on the list (I learn better/retain longer
that way) and will try to take to next level in the same way. Fun times
ahead.

Granted, I now have, within limits, the luxury of time, though I may be
better served by having a hard date to shoot for. We'll see.

By the way, there is a book with an implementation (in C) of an audio
recorder using a PIC18Fxx2 and I2C comms with an EEPROM. It is
"Microprocessors From Assembly Language to C Using the PIC18Fxx2", by Robert
L. Reese. Other than the misnaming (the PIC is NOT a uP), it isn't too bad.
However, I have yet to have more than 40 or 50 pages of it. Might give you a
few ideas.

Richard


{Quote hidden}

2008\07\16@212349 by threewheeler7

picon face

I am quite sure you realize that I meant audio time vs quality, as in
responding to Bob's post.


Olin Lathrop wrote:
>
> threewheeler7 wrote:
>> just how much can you store on a 256 eeprom?
>
> Is this a trick question, like who is buried in Grant's tomb or what color
> is my blue shirt?
>
>

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2008\07\16@213748 by threewheeler7

picon face

I am sorry i was in a hurry, 22khz sample rate 8 bits a sample, i realize
that this is a lot of memory, but the device will probably play music and it
cant sound like crap if it does. so maybe an SD interface? or another
suggestion for descent quality at a slower rate.  


Olin Lathrop wrote:
>
>
> 22KHz *what*?  Sample rate or bandwidth?  This makes a big difference.
> And
> you still haven't specified bits/sample.
>
>

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2008\07\16@215609 by Marcel Birthelmer

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How about an 8-bit NAND flash? I'm not sure how much they cost, but I deal
with them quite a bit at work and they're not terribly hard to drive. You
need 12 or so pins to drive one (8 bits data, CE, /RE, /WE, ready busy,
maybe WP). You do need to worry about wear levelling, so if you plan on
erasing/writing data a lot, you may run into problems.
SD can be interfaced using SPI, and you'll find plenty of examples of that
on the internet.
Regards,
- Marcel

On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 6:37 PM, threewheeler7 <spamBeGonethreewheeler7spamBeGonespamhotmail.com>
wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> -

2008\07\16@231056 by threewheeler7

picon face

for this i will not be recording just playing back. wouldn't the 8 data pins
go to the DAC?

Marcel Birthelmer wrote:
>
> You need 12 or so pins to drive one (8 bits data, CE, /RE, /WE, ready
> busy,
> maybe WP). You do need to worry about wear levelling, so if you plan on
> erasing/writing data a lot, you may run into problems.
>
>

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2008\07\16@232137 by Marcel Birthelmer

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face
Not directly. They're also used for sending address and command to the chip.
You could probably put the DAC on the NAND data bus, issue address and
command to the NAND, and then somehow tell the DAC to sample as you're
driving the control signals to get the NAND to spit out data.
Anyway, you may want to look for a more well-trodden path for this.
Regards,
- Marcel

On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 8:10 PM, threewheeler7 <TakeThisOuTthreewheeler7EraseMEspamspam_OUThotmail.com>
wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> -

2008\07\16@235159 by William \Chops\ Westfield

face picon face

On Jul 16, 2008, at 2:23 PM, threewheeler7 wrote:

> so i address the memory of the flash memory with my PIC, and send the
> resulting bytes to an a/d? how would i get the uncompressed audio  
> converted
> and on the flash?

Did you look at the project/url I provided?  Here it is again:

(smaller!) http://tinyurl.com/6yn45b

In that case, you use a PC or similar with USB flash card reader/
writer to put appropriately formatted .WAV files on the SD card  
(within a FAT filesystem), and then you the software essentially has  
a play("filename.WAV"); sort of API.

> and when you are talking about using consumer flash cards,
> isn't that a whole other ballpark?

Depends on the flash cards.  Most SD and MMC cards can communicate  
using SPI, making them not-much-harder to talk to than any other  
eeprom chip.  Having a filesystem makes things more complicated, but  
it's a "solved problem."  Or you can build a separate device for  
writing the flash in "raw" mode; more hardware, less SW...

BillW

2008\07\17@041610 by Apptech

face
flavicon
face
> I know CD quality is 2 channel (stereo) 44,1Khz sampling
> rate resulting in
> frequency range of "0"...22,05 kHz, resolution 16
> bit/channel.
> But what are all these other "definitions" like "telephone
> quality", "FM
> quality", "AM quality"?

Good old days telephone bandwidth was (memory dims)(Gargoyle
knows) 300 Hz ish - 3200 Hz. Say about 3 kHz audio
bandwidth. This was in due course digitally sent as 64 kbps
bit stream, 8 kwords/s x 8 bits. Signal was companded at one
of two international standard laws giving mayhaps 10
effective bits.

AM radio channels were 10 kHz space giving +/- 5 kHz
bandwidth less whatever you need for filter cutoff to fit it
in that spacing. Gargoyle knows.

FM? Wazzat?



       Russell

2008\07\17@050846 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>i know that was way to vague, i have a fine line between price and quality,
>somewhere around 22khz would be ideal but i just don't know enough about
>the
>technology to have a grasp of what is possible(or, economical i should
>say).

Well, I know Olin dissed you somewhat for not being precise enough in your
spec, but I would suggest you look at the way he generates sound in his HAL
project. I suspect this may give you enough quality, although at a lower
rate than the 22kHz you mention above. He loads the sounds from standard PC
WAV files, using programs he has made available in his downloads.

http://www.embedinc.com/pic/

Build up the HAL project, and see how it sounds. It may give you a starting
point to see if you want 'better' quality, or can get away with lower
fidelity.

2008\07\17@062044 by Bob Ammerman

picon face
> I am sorry i was in a hurry, 22khz sample rate 8 bits a sample, i realize
> that this is a lot of memory, but the device will probably play music and
> it
> cant sound like crap if it does. so maybe an SD interface? or another
> suggestion for descent quality at a slower rate.

Quick question, what kind of transducer (speaker) will this thing have? Its
capabilities will have tell us a lot about what quality your audio needs to
be.

Someone mentioned CVSD encoding. This is a relatively simple compression
scheme that really can make a difference. In the past this has typically
been done using an IC designed to encode/decode CVSD, but the decoding at
least should be doable in a PIC (and the encoding in a PC). The last time I
looked at this (about 8 years ago) the big issue was getting the
documentation to understand exactly how CVSD worked because finding a
softare-based implementation was very difficult. Now however, it seems to be
supported by many open-source audio conversion programs, so their source
code would probably provide a lot of help. 64Kbit/s CVSD actually sounds
pretty good.

Finally, at only 8 bits per sample for PCM (or for output after conversion
of CVSD) you're going to have quite a bit of quantization noise. You will
want to limit the dynamic range of your audio to minimize this issue (ie:
the quiet parts can't be a lot quieter than the loudest parts).

-- Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems

2008\07\17@090946 by olin piclist

face picon face
threewheeler7 wrote:
> I am sorry i was in a hurry, 22khz sample rate 8 bits a sample, i
> realize
> that this is a lot of memory, but the device will probably play music
> and it
> cant sound like crap if it does.

Then you will probably need more than 8 bits per sample.  8 bits is enough
to make quite understandable voice, but there will be obvious quantization
noise in the background.  22KHz sample rate should get you roughly AM radio
quality with a decent reconstruction filter.  You probably need about 10
bits/sample to make make passable music, although it definitely won't be
HiFi by anyone's standard.

The best way to decide what sample rate and resolution you need is to record
some sound at high quality into a WAV file, then play with different sample
rates and bit width and listen to the results.  My WAV_COPY program might be
able to help, http://www.embedinc.com/pic/dload.htm.  It has a pretty good
resampling algorithm, including a over 2000 point sinc filter for
anti-aliasing.


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2008\07\17@092311 by olin piclist

face picon face
threewheeler7 wrote:
> for this i will not be recording just playing back. wouldn't the 8
> data pins go to the DAC?

I don't know what 8 data pins you are talking about, but you don't need a
external D/A.  Just filter a PWM output.


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2008\07\17@092422 by Jinx

face picon face
Bob Ammerman wrote :

> The last time I looked at this (about 8 years ago) the big issue was
> getting the documentation to understand exactly how CVSD worked
> because finding a software-based implementation was very difficult.
> Now however, it seems to be supported by many open-source audio
> conversion programs, so their source code would probably provide
> a lot of help. 64Kbit/s CVSD actually sounds pretty good

http://techref.massmind.org/techref/piclist/2000/11/12/121918a.txt

http://techref.massmind.org/techref/piclist/2001/11/19/175323a.txt

And the last time I looked at this seriously was also about that time.
Now that micros are faster and big memory is cheaper, and I've a lot
more experience with PICs I think it's time to give it a proper go

The TMS3478, which I've used for the past dozen years, initially
controlled by the 16F84-10, is a self-contained little marvel. It has
everything mentioned in the two threads above in hardware, which
is a great help for learning how CVSD works

2008\07\18@192926 by Justin Richards

face picon face
If you are interested in digital sound then it may be worth a look at
what Roman Black has done http://www.romanblack.com/picsound.htm

Cheers Justin

On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 9:23 PM, Jinx <RemoveMEjoecolquittspamTakeThisOuTclear.net.nz> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -

2008\07\18@201502 by Jinx

face picon face
> If you are interested in digital sound then it may be worth a look at
> what Roman Black has done http://www.romanblack.com/picsound.htm

Justin, hi, there was quite a discussion about that method last year
(I think). ISTR people were having trouble replicating the result.
Bob Axtell would be the man to ask

Personally I've never tried totally PIC-contained sound apart from
beeps and short generated tunes

2008\07\20@085447 by Jinx

face picon face
> 64Kbit/s CVSD actually sounds pretty good

I've uploaded some files. Server keeps timing out when trying to upload
the 44.1kHz stereo original for comaprison (what an odd typo), might try
later

TMS3478 output

http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/joecolquitt/sarasate_32kbps_CVSD_mono.mp3

how the waves actually look

http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/joecolquitt/sarasate_waves.gif

data coming out of the 4C1024 DRAM

http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/joecolquitt/Playback.gif

I use these circuits with RAM or EPROM, a 16F84 supervising

Copies DRAM to SRAM to PC

http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/joecolquitt/shrecorder2.gif

Downloads from PC to SRAM

http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/joecolquitt/shplayer1.gif

If a recording of 0V is made, which makes a stream of 01010101, data
bits are seen more clearly to be about 12us wide

If this were to be done on a PIC, with perhaps SRAM, I might look at
a DAC like the MCP4921. 20MHz SPI and 4us settling time. What I
don't know much about yet are Estimate and Syllabic Integrators

=============================

If anyone's interested, the sample is from Sarasate's Carmen Fantasy,
played by Sarah Chang (vln) with the Berlin Philharmonic. Just fizzes
along

2008\07\20@093817 by Jinx

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PS, these are not of exactly the same sound but are in the same
section of sound

http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/joecolquitt/sarasate_waves.gif

They just illustrate the quite slight difference in smoothness

2008\07\20@215121 by Vitaliy

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face
Jinx wrote:
> how the waves actually look
>
> home.clear.net.nz/pages/joecolquitt/sarasate_waves.gif
>
> data coming out of the 4C1024 DRAM
>
> home.clear.net.nz/pages/joecolquitt/Playback.gif
>
> I use these circuits with RAM or EPROM, a 16F84 supervising

Out of curiosity, what kind of logic analyzer do you use?

2008\07\20@224935 by Jinx

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> Out of curiosity, what kind of logic analyzer do you use?

16-channel 200MHz Acute LA1000P

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